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💃 EPISODE 154: DANCE IS TERRIFYING 💃
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💃🔥 EPISODE 154: DANCE IS TERRIFYING 🔥💃
Out now wherever you get your podcasts.
This week, we’re sweating, spiraling, and counting our way through the horror of dance—from cursed movement to psychological breakdowns and historical mass hysteria.
✨ This episode includes:
🧠 The 1518 Dancing Plague — when hundreds danced until collapse (and possibly death)
🎭 The dark, exclusionary history of The Rockettes
⚠️ The brutal pressure of ballet & body image
🔴 SUSPIRIA (1977) — witches, technicolor nightmares, Goblin’s score
🪞 BLACK SWAN — perfectionism, psychosis, and becoming “perfect”
Plus:
👀 Whatcha Been Watchin’, Bitch
🎲 A dance-themed game
🥂 Brunch negotiations (non-negotiable)
🎧 Listen now.
Support the show 👉 frigay13.com/support
#FriGayThe13th #DanceIsTerrifying #HorrorPodcast #Suspiria #BlackSwan #QueerPodcast #PsychologicalHorror #DanceHorror #GayHorror #BodyHorror
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Details
00:00:00
Speaker
Frygay the 13th Horror Podcast is a proud independent podcast. To learn more about the show, visit frygay13.com.
Humorous Dance Banter
00:00:09
Speaker
Okay, so the choreographer said, be fluid and natural. Ugh, fluid? Girl, I'm stiffer than Cher's wig glue.
00:00:17
Speaker
Just, just follow my lead.
00:00:27
Speaker
Ta-da! Calm down, Beyonce. You're giving more toddlers in tiaras than sold-out world tour. At least I commit. You're moving like RuPaul, step-touching to her own music while shirtless backup dancers do all the work. And you're moving like a backup dancer at a community theater production of Wicked starring three Elphabuzz and one confused Fiero.
00:00:47
Speaker
Let's just do one eight count. Ready? Five, six, seven. who Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Way too fast. can it Look, can we just free form this, put it on TikTok and call it performance art?
00:00:58
Speaker
Yeah. And when people ask what style it is, we'll just say post-traumatic interpretive vogue. Okay, final try. If we nail this stelt, we celebrate. With brunch.
00:01:08
Speaker
Bottomless? Can you not say bottom around me, please?
00:01:20
Speaker
We are icons. We are disasters.
Episode 154 Overview: Horror and Dance
00:01:24
Speaker
It's episode 154. Dancing is terrifying. i am the writing on the wall, the whisper in the classroom.
00:01:34
Speaker
I'm Marjorie Greene, and I approve this message. To save America, stop socialism, and stop China. They define the odyssey from life to death to rise.
00:01:47
Speaker
in real life. Doubters, the doomsters, the gloomsters, they are going to get it wrong. Horror in the movies. Where are you gonna go?
00:01:58
Speaker
Where are gonna run? Where are you gonna hide? Nowhere. Because there's no one like you left. What do we want? Justice!
00:02:10
Speaker
When do we want it? Let's go! What are you waiting for, huh?
00:02:18
Speaker
I want you to know that the movement we started is only just beginning. Sometimes that is better. Candy apples turned into mermaids.
00:02:30
Speaker
Jump, kick, leap, turn, jump, kick, leap, turn, in the on, in the off. Same old, same old.
00:02:48
Speaker
I just hope that the judges realize that Vivian was used as a human prop to bring the age level down. And those girls should not be competing in nine and ten. Welcome to episode 154 of Fraggy the 13th Horror Podcast. My name is Andrew. And my name is Maddie.
00:03:05
Speaker
And if this is your first time at Freigate the 13th Horror Podcast, we are a podcast that talks all about horror, horror in real life, and horror in the movies. And today we're moving and grooving, talking all about dancing through life.
Discussion on 'Suspiria' and 'Black Swan'
00:03:20
Speaker
Let's go, baby. um Yeah, today we're going to talk all about dancing. We have two great movies in store for you. the original Suspiria, which we'll talk about in in a little bit.
00:03:32
Speaker
And then we are talking all ah about the other movie that we have, Black Swan. Yeah, the other movie we have. Which one is it again? Yeah, look, this is this is fun. A little, you know, Andrew, too.
00:03:47
Speaker
You know, there's always we always talk about whether it's our first time watching or not. This is my first time watching Black Swan. Really? Yeah, I actually didn't even think about it. like it's just one like You know how you have one that you just fucking miss? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is one that I just missed. And it's weird because I actually love Darren Aronofsky. So it's surprising that I missed this one. But yeah it was my first time watching it. So um it was just interesting to to watch it for the first time 15 years later. You know, was kind of crazy.
00:04:15
Speaker
We'll talk about some of my weird feelings about that movie when we get to it. But in the meantime, we're going to talk all about dancing. Now, how do you how do you feel like in general? like you're going to i' I'm going to put this in two scenarios for you.
00:04:30
Speaker
okay Sure. ah The first scenario is you are going to be the next contestant on Dancing with the Stars. oh Very hot TV show right now. Just just air just ended. um And you have to learn a choreographed dance. How do you feel?
00:04:49
Speaker
I mean, like, okay, if i if I was going to be on that, like, that's basically your job when you get on that show. So, like, I think I would probably be okay. Like, I mean, like, you're you're learning with people who really know what the fuck they're doing. and yeah if that's all you're doing, i don't know how long they practice, but they must do it for, like, three weeks or some shit before they actually, like, do their whatever.
00:05:09
Speaker
Like, I think I might, i don't think I can it through the whole fucking show, but i'd I'd be able to do at least one of them. You know what I mean? And like, you feel pretty good about like, uh, taking moves and like, ah learning choreography and stuff. Yeah, I mean, I think it would depend on like, if I had a chance to like get fitter before I started doing it.
00:05:30
Speaker
And I mean, like fit fitter with cardio and fitter and fitter with with strength. I think that I would probably be okay because I've done dance class stuff before. And like, look, it's not like i I didn't study dance. I'm not a great dancer. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying like from being in theater and like doing that kind of stuff, I i kind of i I know how to take choreography and like kind of do it at least. So I don't know. I think I'd be OK. I don't think I'd win or anything for God's sake. How do you think you would do?
00:05:58
Speaker
um As someone who choreographed ah mock rock in high school and choreographed the Spice Girls wannabe number. Oh my God. um Listen, I'm good at telling people what to do. I'm not so good at following the instructions. ah yeah So, i listen, have I always wanted to take like a dance class at like what is that Arthur Murray or like whatever? Yeah, i sure. yeah Some one of those things. I would love to, but I've just never done it, so I don't really know like how I would take... um
00:06:31
Speaker
choreography I don't know. no I'm not sure. Like the dancers at the at those schools, I think I've i probably said this before, but i I dated a dancer once. I forget what his name was right now. was like three initials. Anyways, dated this guy. and And he's a very talented dancer and a very talented choreographer. And i actually, I gave him an idea for a show when he choreographed a dance to the National You dumb idiot. Yeah. But he also didn't give me any credit for that. i just want to point that out. Anyways, um like the dancers that are that are good. Like, fuck, they can just they move in ways that we don't move.
00:07:06
Speaker
You know, like their their bodies are so used to such to such fluid movement and to and to and to. to like such confidence in how their body works and how it moves.
00:07:17
Speaker
um That's something that you, that's a skill you have to learn over years and years and years. And I yeah i don't have that in me. I just don't. All right. Scenario number two, you're going to um either a wedding or ah or the holiday club, if you live in Chicago, on a Saturday night. And there's just like free form music. Are you getting on the dance floor? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:07:42
Speaker
Like at a wedding, yes. um I would say like maybe a little bit less at weddings now that I'm older, like because mostly because i just want to sit down. more yeah But like at the holiday club Holiday Club, for those who don't know, Holiday Club was like sort of in uptown-ish area in Chicago. Sheridan Redline Stop. Yeah, it was right by the Sheridan Redline Stop. And we used to love going there because they had ninety s ninety s night and eighty s night.
00:08:08
Speaker
90s night was what? That was Saturdays? we can't remember. It was Friday and Saturday, but I can't remember which one was interchangeable. I'm pretty sure that Friday was 80s and Saturday was ninety s And we always went for 90s night. And it was it was fucking great because in the main bar, you could like have food and get a bunch of drinks and then just right through the double doors, you'd go in there and it was a total fucking dance party. And it was it was so much fun every time and we'd be there until they fucking close. It was just it was a great time. There and he hear's I will absolutely go and dance for sure.
00:08:37
Speaker
And here's my advice to the holiday club. Put hooks for coats. That's all you need to do. Oh We used to just pile coats, pile coats, like, and everyone would do it. And you would just kind of hope and pray that your coat was still there. You know what i mean? Oh, great crazy talk, crazy talk.
00:08:54
Speaker
um For me, i mean, back in the day, i would, you know, cut a rug, if you will. sure um And it kind of depended on my liquid courage, if you know what I mean. yeah um But nowadays, like, I'll maybe get up for like a song that I like and i'll I'll slow dance. But like, just don't get as I just don't get as crazy as I used to. i don't know. i
Real-life Dance Story: The Dancing Plague of 1518
00:09:16
Speaker
mean' just We're in our 40s now. Like that that that same energy is just it's truly not there. Yeah.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it's just it's not. I mean, I was at a concert on on we're we're recording on Sunday. I was at a concert on Friday. This guy named Jesse Wells at the Olympia in Dublin. And it's he's not like ah you you don't like get up and dance to him, really, I i wouldn't say. But like, you know, you you move around at a concert. I've definitely become like a head bopper, you know, and ah and again now like I just kind of stand there with my two feet and ah and I bop my head like that's that's about what I can do at a concert these days. And it's one of those things too. Like i feel like a lot of times like at weddings or like, you know, in a, in a, in a, whatever, like quote unquote, like club situation. sure Like if you're not dancing, like people don't think you're having a good time. Like I can assure you I'm having a good time. i just, I'm having a good time with myself. I completely get it. Yes. I completely understand that.
00:10:09
Speaker
Yeah. But, that ah um, all right. So I think you have a little bit of a creepy situation with some dancing. why don't you tell me a little bit about it yeah So look, this is something that I had i had literally never fucking heard before. ah But this is, i was just looking for you know things to talk about fucking dance and horror.
00:10:27
Speaker
And apparently there was a there was a dancing plague of 1518. Have you ever heard of this before? The dancing plague of 1518? I think I have, but please tell me more.
00:10:40
Speaker
Never heard of it before in my life. So here's what happened. And and if you want to go more in depth on this, I i looked at an an article from BBC from ah from May of 2022. Yeah.
00:10:54
Speaker
ah but and so i'll give you a rundown of the story so in july fifteen eighteen in strasbourg then a free city in the holy roman empire now it's in france of course a woman historically referred to as frau trefea ah began dancing in the street for no obvious reason Witnesses say she danced continuously without rest for days. Her compulsive dancing rapidly spread and within days, dozens joined. And by the end of the outbreak, the number of dancers may have reached several hundred and some of the historical sources, quote, up to 400 people. The original flash mob, huh? Exactly, right? The dancing was not playful or celebratory. Contemporary accounts describe it as a grim compulsion. The dancers were exhausted, their limbs convulsed, their bodies were drenched in sweat, and some even collapsed and died. So obviously this is in the 16th century when like, you know, they were hunting witches for God's sake. So you can imagine what people were thinking about what was going on here. So the authorities, how they responded.
00:12:05
Speaker
So at first, a local physician um and some of the authorities, they believe that the cause was hot blood. And so a common, i know, right? A common humoral theory, sickness of the time, um and they recommended dancing as a cure. That led to the building of makeshift dance halls, bringing in musicians and professional dancers to encourage the afflicted to keep moving. What? And unsurprisingly, it worsened the situation.
00:12:33
Speaker
Later, when the mania intensified, civic and religious leaders intervened. Public dancing was banned and even music was prohibited, but it had little effect. Eventually, the survivors were taken to a shrine dedicated to Saint Vitus.
00:12:48
Speaker
ah the The patron saint of dancers didn't even know that that that saint existed and people with nervous or convulsive disorders ah where they walked in red shoes, holding crosses sprinkled with holy water. And according to later accounts, this ritual was followed by a gradual end of the dancing mania. So what caused all of this and why it still remains a bit of a mystery? Well, scholars have proposed several overlapping explanations.
00:13:14
Speaker
The first one is that it could have been some sort of mass psychogenic illness, a kind of collective hysteria triggered by extreme stress. So 16th century Strasbourg was afflicted by famine, disease, and hardships. Many believe that you know maybe the dancing was caused by some sort of like psychotic reaction to panic and stress and desperation and hopelessness. That kind of thing. um It could have been an ergot poisoning or a fungal contamination. And you know this is you know like what what happened with um what possibly happened with ah Children of the Corn, right? historians speculate that bakers might have inadvertently served rye bread contaminated with ergot, a fungus that can cause convulsions, hallucinations, and bizarre behavior. But of course, that's a bit controversial because ergotism does not easily account for the prolonged rhythmic and coordinated dancing described in the accounts of the time.
00:14:11
Speaker
Wait, you didn't say coordinated before. What is that? Do you know what that means? To be honest, I don't know. But apparently, this is what was going on. And there's even a word for this coming. There's a word called choreomania. You ever heard of that before? Oh, my God. i like this is it it's all It kind of blew my mind this morning when I was- know what?
00:14:27
Speaker
If I'm going to die, mean, it may it be dancing is not the worst way. There you go. um There might have been some religious or spiritual interpretation. So at the time, of course, many attributed the plague to a curse from St. Vetus or maybe demonic possession, which is not super surprising for the time. um And that would have been reflective, of course, of those deeply held beliefs you know that that they had back then. um So there's that. But because of the conflicting limited and fragmentary records, no single explanation has ever been proven, obviously. So the dancing plague remains one of history's strangest unsolved mysteries. So this 1518 event was one of the most dramatic and well-documented instances of dance mania or choreomania. ah Similar outbreaks were recorded in parts of medieval and early modern Europe along the Rhine and Moselle rivers, for example. And the story has haunted collective memory as a powerful metaphor. It blurs lines between performance, compulsion, sickness, the supernatural, kind of like horror narratives. And it continues to inspire books, novels, artwork and creative retellings. So for modern audiences here, it evokes a little bit of existential dread, dance not as joy or art, but as madness, as physical breakdown, as doom, very much like Suspiria that we'll talk about later on. A couple of quotes from around this time. um Here's one from ah this is from ah a a physician named Schorer. In his Chronica der Stadt Strasbourg, where he said, they continued their dancing, heedless of shame or fatigue.
00:16:04
Speaker
Many danced until their ribs snapped, until they fell to the ground senseless. Others died in the streets, their hearts overcome by the strain. And then from another physician, Paracelsus, who was writing about the 1518 dancers, he said, their minds were fixed, their bodies compelled. They danced without joy until the anguish of their movement.
00:16:27
Speaker
Brought them low. So look, folks, it is probably your first time also hearing about the dancing plague of 1518 because we never learned that in school. um So look it up. There's there's a lot of articles about there out there about it. A lot of scholarly work, too.
00:16:43
Speaker
um It is extremely interesting. And look, I'm glad we did this episode today because I would have never known about this ridiculous plague that happened in 1518. You know, I think I know who's responsible. Tell me. And their last name is Sanderson. There you go. That's it. Winifred Sanderson. ah Dance, dance, dance until you die.
00:17:05
Speaker
Mm hmm. I wonder if they took that from that. You know what? That's actually a good point. um What's his face? ah Mick Garris. Yeah. nick Reach out, Mick. We used to be on the same podcast network.
00:17:16
Speaker
Not anymore. Mick, what's going on? Do you know about this? Anyways, um that's the 1518 Dancing Plague, Andrew. Cool. um So I want to read before I get into mine, I want to read you one excerpt that will lead into my story. Sure.
00:17:31
Speaker
ah In the United States, it became illegal to discriminate against people for jobs because of their race or color, religion, national origin, etc. with the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The key section is Title 567 of the Civil Rights of Act of signed into law on of teen sixty four which
History of the Rockettes and Racial Discrimination
00:17:59
Speaker
prohibits employment discrimination blah blah blah blah blah
00:18:02
Speaker
so just keep that in mind as i go into my story love it The Rockettes... I'm here to ruin your Christmas. Merry Christmas.
00:18:15
Speaker
All right. The Rockettes traced their roots back to 1925 when choreographer Russell matt Markert founded a group called the Missouri Rockettes in St. Louis. Inspired by the British high-kicking troops, the Tiller Girls, Markert envisioned a similarly precise uniform dance line. but using American dancers.
00:18:39
Speaker
The troupe later moved to New York City under the theater impresario Samuel Rothefell, quote-unquote Roxy, initially renamed the Roxyettes. When relocated to the newly opened Radio City Music Hall in 1932, so that's only seven years. That's pretty good for a dance troupe. The name eventually became the Rockettes, their signature show. lot easier to say than the Roxyettes.
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah. The Roxy. That does something in my tongue. Yeah. bad name um The signature show, the radio city Christmas spectacular became in 1933 over decades through movies, stage productions, holiday shows. You get it. Like we've seen the rockets, their precision dancing. It's the kick line. It's it's the everything.
00:19:29
Speaker
However, do you remember what I just stated before that? Yeah. About discrimination. Yeah. From the start, Markert's guiding principle was, quote unquote, precision and uniformity. The Rockettes were meant to move as one dancer, identical height, identical lines, identical motions to this end. And their early and longstanding rules included strict requirements around height, appearance and skin tone. ill Go figure.
00:19:58
Speaker
As late as the 1980s, company leadership... 1980s. So for, I guess, what, what do count that? 26 years? Yeah, quite long time.
00:20:10
Speaker
The company leadership defended the lack of non-white dancers on, quote-unquote, artistic grounds, arguing that any visible racial difference would, quote-unquote, distract from the uniform mirror image effect central to the Rockettes' style.
00:20:26
Speaker
According to critics, this uniformity effectively served as a form of racial racial exclusion. Dancers who weren't white or didn't fit the narrow aesthetic were long excluded in practice.
00:20:39
Speaker
So it just just to kind of break this down a little bit. So in no other... area where we able to discriminate on and and rightfully so we should not discriminate on and any on anything. and it's It's based on talent and based on i i don't know, but but based on a lot of things, but you should never be based on what you look like, in in my opinion. I mean, yeah everyone ever can have their own opinion on that. But um so they effectively league were able to not obey this law for, i mean, essentially 30 years.
00:21:12
Speaker
You know, it's it's interesting because it's like, you know, they're they're hiring dancers, you know what mean? And so like you you do need to like take, you know, skill and and shape and line into into account when you're auditioning people.
00:21:28
Speaker
I think like the main thing here is the is the racial aspect to it. Yeah. And and the idea that like a black dancer would distract in the show is it's it's such a weird like catch 22 on this one because it's like it's bullshit is what it is. It's bullshit. But then the reality is that for the for society at that time, it would have been distracting. You know what i mean? and and And don't get me wrong here. That's not like I'm not defending it. What I'm saying is that can you imagine like if they had put a black dancer in in like when did they start this the 30s and when did it when did it move over to Radio City in 33. So like imagine if they had put a black dancer in in like I don't know 1940. Let's say yeah.
00:22:12
Speaker
I wonder if the I wonder if the show would still be like the legend that it is today if they had done that. Or if if people wouldn't have gone anymore.
00:22:23
Speaker
Do you know what i mean? i'm it's it's just It's like weird to think about. i think what I'm where I'm coming from is not the time period you're talking about. I'm talking about from 1964 on. I'm talking about like like i didn't during the civil rights era.
00:22:37
Speaker
Yeah. Why did it take 30 years for them to have anyone that didn't look like a, you know, I don't know, five foot five tall white girl? You know what i mean? Yeah, no, I get it. Well, I mean, let me ask you this. When you were looking at this, did you find it? Was there like any like talk about that around that time and in the 60s? Like, were there any like people trying to get in that that that that couldn't get in?
00:22:59
Speaker
Yes, there were. and And this is and this is what this guy marker. He always had this guiding principle of like yeah uniformity like that. was That was his guiding light. Like that was his like excuse. Let's just call it. a Let's call spade a spade. That was his excuse was I've set it up this way. This is just the way it is.
00:23:17
Speaker
But, but the thing about the Rockettes is that we, you know, much like, ah you know, I'll talk about ballet dancers in a little bit, but like much like, you know, dancers when we equivocate, you know, um, females to dancing, we equivocate like little girls we with them in dance, dance school. We put them in ballet. Like did they, they, they strive to be like the these people. Like, it so if you only see white, white, white,
00:23:45
Speaker
five foot seven, 120 pound ladies and you're not that, what does that look like to you? that like You're never never going to be anything else with it either. and then And that just sucks. Like, I hate that mentality of like, you only can be one thing. That's so stupid. yeah I mean, it's it's completely stupid. and And what's, I think what's like, then what's also equally dumb is that like society would have been like, oh, can't go see that show now. Like, right. Yeah. What's,
00:24:14
Speaker
When you look back at the history of all of it and in in America, but you know also around the world. Also right now. I don't know about the... What were they called? The Tiller Girls or whatever in the UK. But I imagine that they were probably all white too. And like just how people...
00:24:30
Speaker
thought that way back then and and you know and we look within our within our lifetimes and in even today as you just said like like spoiler alert it's happening now exactly like it's it is it is a very very bizarre thing that that people still really believe that like it should just be a bunch of white people like that's it's fucked up it's very very fucked up yeah here's here's my advice to our listeners talk to someone that doesn't look like you Yeah, i guarantee i guarantee they're still goingnna be a person.
00:24:58
Speaker
So, you know, I think the good thing is that our listeners probably do. Yeah, I wish more people would do it, though. Yeah. All right. So I do want to talk a little bit about the first steps that they did take to inclusion and diversity in the Rockettes because it's not all doom and gloom.
00:25:14
Speaker
Like yeah there is like a little bit of a little a glimmer, a glimmer of hope. um The first non-white Rockette was a Japanese born dancer named Setsuko Maruhashi. There you go. was And she wasn't, but she wasn't hired until 1985.
00:25:34
Speaker
And let's think about that. We say non-white, but the first black racket was not hired until 1987. So it took a couple years of of having someone just slightly off skin tone. Yeah, right, right. the the The tones kept getting darker. Yeah, well, and it's funny because, you know, the article that I looked up said a Japanese-born dancer. But it doesn't say that, like, oh, her mom was white and her dad was Japanese. Yeah, sure. Yeah, exactly.
00:26:02
Speaker
um And then she, ah the first black one, Jennifer Jones, was in 1987. She publicly in 1988. And more than two decades after, race-based hiring bans had been outlawed.
00:26:16
Speaker
So it did take 20 more years for them to say we're not separating races. My God almighty. Jesus Christ. Oh, God. So over the time, the troop claimed they had broadened their additions and placements, although critics argued progress was slow and unequal. Gee, you don't say. um I also want to talk about a little bit about um some of the height and body type things of the Rockets. And I understand, like, I get it. It's a show. Like, they have to be fit. Like, they have to be able to do they have to be able to do the number. Absolutely. i think and
00:26:49
Speaker
I think I looked it up and they do like 5,000 leg kicks a day. oh yeah. Which is crazy to me. I mean, like there's there's no way you're doing that unless you are extremely physically fit. There's there's absolutely no way.
00:27:04
Speaker
Yeah, instead of dancing with the stars, we need dancing with the Rockettes. you know and For real. Jesus. So the height and body standards, the Rockettes have long required dancers to fall within a very narrow height range. Traditionally, this was about 5'6 to 5'10 and a half. So I was kind of in between there when I was talking earlier. um Though it has been slightly expanded in recent years.
00:27:23
Speaker
You know, i yeah Listen, I know that the institution of the Rockettes and everyone that lives in New York City and takes their little girls to see the Rockettes. I understand. I get it. We watch down the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade every year. We get it. But like, wouldn't it be more interesting if it was like them being in sync, but all different sizes and shapes? Wouldn't that be more interesting? I don't know.
00:27:44
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you know, like for me, the the thing is, too, is like. I look at the Rockettes and I'm like, it's it's, it's, it's an institution. It's been there forever. Like it's, it's a part of like the Thanksgiving day parade, all that kind of shit. And like, I'm like, I literally never want to go see it.
00:27:59
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? And it's also like, it's never been anything I wanted to see like ever in my life. And like, you know, I like dance. so I love going to see musicals and I've, I've been to the ballet before and all that kind of stuff.
00:28:11
Speaker
But like the idea of just like a bunch of women, kicking and like look they're good at it don't get me wrong but like that i couldn't want to do anything less in my life than go see the rockettes you know yeah i think i think even that alone is just sort of a strange phenomenon because it's like like look at how they're dressed and like and the fact that they're just like kicking and it's sort of like a can can thing like it's i think it started in such like uh and like i don't know the full history of this or anything but just like my my very amateur take on it is it just started in such a sexualized way anyway you know what mean where it's like that i don't actually i don't don't want that at christmas you know what i mean like i don't like i watch bad santa that's that's good enough i don't need like sexy ladies getting it on me like kicking their kicking their legs up for christmas i'm like this is stupid it really just it doesn't it hits me like why what's the what's the point of it. That's it. It's just it's just very funny that, in listen, if you like to go see these things, I congratulate you. If you want to go to fucking Paris and go to the Moulin Rouge, I don't really give a shit. like yeah right But like, it's just one of those things that like, haven't we moved beyond this? Like,
00:29:18
Speaker
Well, you know, I actually, I do, like, are they, their the show is still going, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. thing I wonder how, like, um I wonder how, like, ticket sales even, oh, I guess it's their 100th anniversary. I just Googled it. um Like, I wonder how ticket sales, like, even are. Happy anniversary. We're talking and shit about you. Exactly. The Christmas Spectacular, starting the Radio City Rockettes. And, like, looking at this, like, it looks like there's a lot more to it now. Like, they've got, like, marching soldiers and fucking soldiers.
00:29:43
Speaker
Yeah, I read one article where there's like the dancers complain because they had like live animals. So there's just like shit all over. Well, you know, and like here here are some reviews I'm looking at right now on this website called Broadway show tickets. They must like be able to get cheaper tickets or something. um here's one from maria beautiful family show excitement family yeah excitement sentimental great dancers great ambiance
Ballet, Aesthetics, and Eating Disorders
00:30:10
Speaker
simply in love my third time uh constanza says wonderful performance you can't stop being amazed would recommend it to anyone it's great fun to watch what happens on stage this person was german here's one from somebody who's spanish impressive staging the lights the live music especially the rockets but they spelled it oral cats which is kind of funny um daniela uh croquettes right exactly uh daniela it was more than perfect have enjoyed the best show we know one in a lifetime um i mean like looking once again i don't know what this fucking website is but um people do seem to love it quite a bit but once again as always with everything that we say if you like it more power to you i i could literally give a fuck less about show? Does that mean? No, no, no. There is something for everyone, truly. Exactly, right. I get but it's just like
00:31:01
Speaker
I don't know. Like when I was looking into the history of it and everything, it just seemed like this guy was just some stubborn old white guy that just wanted things the way he wanted it and never budged until he probably died. And I'm guessing I didn't look this up, but I'm guessing he probably died in like 1982. And then a couple of years later, they were like, oh, we need to know we can do this. Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, you know, it's like how everything was back then with Hollywood and performance and entertainment. It's like what the studios did to fucking Judy Garland. You know, like they ruined her life by making sure that she stayed thin, thin, thin, thin.
00:31:41
Speaker
And how did they do that? They gave her fucking, you know, crazy pills to take all the fucking time. Amphetamines. Exactly. Which made her an addict and and truly ruined her life despite all the success that she had. And like you know' there's always been this um this this this model body that you have to to shoot for. And whether that's in terms of skin tone or whether that's in terms of fitness or whatever, you know that's something that can really dramatically you know ruin your life.
00:32:10
Speaker
Um, and, and, you know, I, I'm sure that if we dug into this, we would probably find a lot of personal narratives from rockette dancers who speak out. Um, you know, don't quote me on this, but I, I bet you they're there of oh there's a whole documentary. There you go. So, I mean, that you know, there's, they're, they're already out there and I bet you would find that with any dance troupe at the same time, you know, I yeah and i do, I do maybe wonder like to in today's world, like,
00:32:36
Speaker
I mean, one good thing is that like that shit just doesn't fly in so many ways, especially for young people. Talk about talk to the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders about that. and know well i mean but I mean, you know, like maybe that aside, but like, I mean, in I'm talking about like dance companies and dance troops. And like, you know, you mentioned like Arthur Murray, for example, or like Gus Jordan. I have another one from Chicago that I know is like Gus Jordan. I was a very serious dance troupe, like like dance troops like that. I don't think the same kind of like, how can I say it? Standards. I i don't think the same kind of racism is allowed anymore, yeah which I think is very good. But I would imagine too, that even like body standards are starting to change a bit, you know, for one thing to simply, as we understand like body dysmorphia better and,
00:33:19
Speaker
you know, eating disorders better and that kind of thing. Like that you, you, you, you just, you, if you're doing good as a leader, you have to be looking out for your people. So I don't know. but I would be interested to learn a lot more about this. Like this is what I'm trying to say.
00:33:32
Speaker
Well, speaking of eating disorders, would you want to hear more about the ballet? Sounds great. Bring it on. All right. So the the ballet, um I'm going to be specifically talking about studies into the New York City Ballet for this portion, just because they were a studied group of dancers.
00:33:50
Speaker
um So ballet is an aesthetic sport, of course. um Unlike many physical activities, body appearance and proportions are frequently part of the evaluation. We'll talk about more of this in Black Swan because I have some things to talk about with that.
00:34:05
Speaker
um So the aesthetic pressure is very prevalent. um Many ballet training traditions are by the style of George Balanchine. I think I said that correctly. Yeah. yeah um who continues to influence the New York City Ballet and other major ballet institutions. He emphasized long lines, narrow waists, high hip high legs, hips, a physique that often equates thinness with the ideal but ballet body.
00:34:35
Speaker
i'm Not same for men because those legs are insane, oh those male dancers. But um the emphasis on look in line are reinforced by instructors and directors combined with dancers, on natural perfectionism and dedication to their art. That combination can lead to some of the internalizing extreme constraints around diet, weight and physique.
00:34:58
Speaker
So i i found some research. This is actually from the and NIH. So this is actual, actual research. Yeah. um A meta analysis found that ballet dancers have a higher prevalence of eating disorders than non dancers amongst all All ballet dancers studied. Not a surprise. Not a surprise all.
00:35:15
Speaker
Amongst all ballet dancers studied, about 16.4% had or had had an eating disorder. Wow. um Some specific subconditions within this group, some studies estimated about 4% for anorexia and nervosa and higher for ah other or unspecified eating disorders. um So probably a lot of binge eating, bulimia, that kind. it And you know, like...
00:35:40
Speaker
And not to, I don't, I don't always want to make this podcast about me, but like as someone who has suffered from an eating disorder in their life, like yeah it's really hard to break out of it. It's really hard to guess break that. Like, so once you're in it, you think that's just your life now. And so like, that's like, I i can only imagine with the pressures of not only like,
00:36:01
Speaker
you, you, you alone, but also your profession. Can you even imagine like, well, I mean, cause it's, it's not just an action. It's like a, it's a mindset that you have to change. And it's, yeah it's one that is, I mean, you know, it's a compulsion it's and and a compulsion. And like that takes time to actually break and, and, and shift and move. And it it can't just happen overnight. It's just, Oh, they're, they really are just a nightmare. They're an absolute nightmare.
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah. And compared to non-dancers, ballet dancers are roughly three times more likely to develop disordered eating behaviors or full-blown eating disorders. Jesus. It's really interesting to talk about eating disorders in the time of GLPs in like all these. Yeah, sure.
00:36:46
Speaker
And I am on a GLP right now, but like I try really, really hard to not make that about the eating. Yeah, if sure. It's about like what you eat and how much you how much you eat and not necessarily like starving yourself or forgetting to eat or that kind of stuff. Yeah. So it's it's really interesting because I don't.
00:37:08
Speaker
I listen, I think that there was a really hard line on eating disorders in like the 90s and early 2000s. And then I think we kind of let go of it.
00:37:19
Speaker
i I don't it's been it's been about fucking Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig and ah now Ozempic and all this stuff now that we don't talk about like the mental part. And, you know, it's it's interesting. And like, you know, it's it's it's funny how these two topics do kind of go hand in hand, you know. Because like, you know, i like I'm sure like I'm sure like me, I'm sure ah you, Andrew, and probably a lot of you out there when you go to your Instagram feed, I bet you're getting a lot of like fitness kind of influencer kind of people who are whatever. Right. And what one thing that's been really interesting for me is like, oh, I'll get these like younger guys on there who, you know, talk about like working out. And of course, they're they're trying to sell you a program in one way or another. But like also naturally, they're always cute and they're always, you know, shirtless and they're always doing workouts and like and they're funny. And like that's that's how they do this thing now. But one thing that I've been really I've been kind of what's the word I'm looking for? I've been conscious about. Well, happy to see with with some of these is like they also talk about eating.
00:38:20
Speaker
And, and I can give you examples of them later, but like they talk about eating and like there's, there's one, he's ah he's in Northern Ireland. I forget his name now, but he talks about like, look, you can eat bread.
00:38:33
Speaker
It's okay to eat bread. Here you go. In fact, I'm going to do a challenge right now where I eat nothing but sandwiches for an entire month. And it was actually kind of like, it's gimmicky and it's silly and it kind of gets you in. But I was like,
00:38:45
Speaker
You know what? That's a great fucking
Movie Recommendations and Reviews
00:38:47
Speaker
idea. It's great fucking idea to get people's brains out of like, you can't ever eat bread. And like, but like, that's like the ongoing narrative is like, if you even think about eating a slice of bread, you're going to be fat forever.
00:39:01
Speaker
And like, that is what we get told by all these different fucking, you know, the voices from over here and voices from over there. And like, I, I, I, I've been glad to see at least some young people talking about it in a different way. And like, look, it's probably never going to be out of my head, know what mean? Or yours. But like, if younger people can start eating more sensibly, that makes me happy. And like, hopefully,
00:39:26
Speaker
Hopefully there won't be as much of body dysmorphia and problems in the same way that like our generation had, you know? Yeah. don't know. I'm hopeful they're with you, but like, and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on this, um but, you know, I think it's as long as social media continues to be on the rise. And I i don't know if there's an expiration date on social media. I'm not really sure. Like, i i kind of go back and forth on like, don't know, we're going to get sick of it or not. um But I think as long as you're as long as there is comparison,
00:39:59
Speaker
you're never, it's never going to go away. You know what mean? Like it's, sure you have to do the work on your own and you have to, um, figure out ah what makes you happy and what makes your body happy because it's, you can't compare yourself to anybody else. because i mean Exactly. And I think like that's, that's an important thing with athleticism in in the first place. Right. Because, you know, and yeah you said it yourself that, you know, ballet is is a is a aesthetic sport. And so with any sort of athletic thing that you do, like right now, I'm really into working out. But before that, I was really into running. And so I'm really grateful that I found this new way into my gym and I'm enjoying it and I'm seeing really great results and everything. And I'm being really conscious of of what I'm of what I'm doing when I'm eating. And I mean that because I know how I've gotten before, like when I was when I was obsessed with running and all I would do is run and then I would eat crazy food. And then i I would also like just not eat some days and then go run 10 miles. And like, no wonder I was losing so much weight. Hello. Right. But didn't that feel great when I did, you know? And so now I'm trying to think like, OK, how can I fuel my body when I'm going to the gym so I'm not going to pass out? And then when I'm done, how do I fuel it again? and how do I keep it going? And like, if, if, if if we can, if people can start to make that connection in terms of, I don't need to do this to lose weight.
00:41:25
Speaker
I need to do this to feel better. i need to do this to, to have a body that, you know, I, I feel good in. And the only way that I can do that, the only way I can do that is if I fuel it properly and appropriately. Like, that's that's the kind of stuff that we need to get to.
00:41:40
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree. It's really hard. Like, when you don't like... I mean, we were both, like, you know, pudgier kids when we were kids. That's what I was. Yeah. And, like, it's really hard to break yourself out of that mentality of just, like... God, yes. Well, guess I got to go to the Husky section. The fact that we even had a Husky section really bothers me. It's very fucking weird. So, you know, look, I can only imagine what what dancers go through. You know, I mentioned that I mentioned that I dated that dancer before. And this is a long time ago. But I remember him telling me about like the stuff that he did to eat and how he would go on like fasts and how he would like to like he would like do like hot yoga and all this crazy shit to like get the sodium out of his body, he would say. And like, he would just not eat or like, he would like drink like water with lemon and like chili pepper in it or something like that. Oh God. The, the, the flush or whatever that was. Right. And like, that's, that's what he, and like, I don't know where he is today, but like, I can only imagine that that was part of some sort of, you know, whether he even knew it or not, but like, that's part of a disorder. Like, it's like when, when you're not eating, like your body is meant to fucking eat things. When you're not eating, that, my friend, a disorder. All right. think that does it for in real life.
00:43:02
Speaker
We'll take a quick break and be right back with what you've been watching, bitch.
00:43:07
Speaker
Let's all go to the lobby. Let's all go to the lobby. Let's all go to the lobby to get ourselves a treat.
00:43:18
Speaker
And we're back with another edition of everyone's favorite segment. What you been watching, bitch? What you been watching, you tap dancing bitch? That was a good one. Well, listen, folks, this is the segment of the show where we talk about what we've been watching. So Andrew is going to give us his first one. Andrew, give it to us.
00:43:37
Speaker
My first one is on HBO. It is called I Love L.A. Have you watched this at all? Not yet, but I've heard a lot of people talk about it. So I'm interested to hear what you think. So this is Rachel Sennett. If you don't remember her, she's from Bodies, Bodies, Bodies. She's the one that has the whole quote about podcasts. Yeah, sure. and so I love that movie. It's so good.
00:43:59
Speaker
And take like her kind of sarcastic humor and fuse it into a show about a girl who lives in LA who works for a PR agency that is now um representing her own friend um kind of in like l a And like...
00:44:14
Speaker
but her friend is like an influencer, not like a celebrity. yeah yeah um And it's her navigating that. It's also got um Hutchinson from the hunger games, Josh Hutcherson. Oh, I love him. He's so cute.
00:44:27
Speaker
ah He plays her boyfriend. Who's kind of like, um he's like a high school teacher, but also like a musician. And it's just like them. Like I would equate this show to being much like girls was, but maybe for like a nerve, a new generation and like an LA, like an I really like it. I have had a lot of fun with it. ah A lot of, I will say a lot of the situations I can't necessarily understand because I, I'm not young anymore, but like, it's really funny to watch.
00:44:59
Speaker
yeah It's, it's just funny to watch sarcastic people move through the world. It's, it's yeah sure like, so, um But yeah, overall, really like it. Highly recommend. i love L.A.
00:45:10
Speaker
Love it. ah My first one is ah sad. go but ah What a surprise from me. um This is on Netflix. It's called All the Empty Rooms. Have you heard of this one yet?
00:45:23
Speaker
No. So All the Empty Rooms is a brief documentary. can't remember for how long it is now, but it's like 45 minutes maybe um about Steve Hartman. And Steve Hartman is a um he's like ah a social commentator and news anchor from America um who if you've ever watched CBS Sunday Morning, you have definitely seen seen Steve Hartman before. um kind of i love CBS Sunday Morning. um Anyways, not anymore. Yeah, not anymore. But steve Steve Hartman is the guy that every school shooting, he he he was the one reporting on it for CBS.
00:45:59
Speaker
He was doing it for years. And for the last seven years, he wanted to do a project where he could do a little bit more than just as as he but he is as he might say, than just like whitewash over what what occurred.
00:46:14
Speaker
And so he did this project where he would go to the family homes of the kids that were killed by guns in their schools and he would film their empty bedrooms.
00:46:27
Speaker
And he brought a photographer, he brought a photographer along. And so there's all these amazing photos because these parents, they've left their bedrooms exactly as they are from when the kid died. So like, I mean, there's, there's one child that died. um it was a boy and he was a boy, I should say. And like his dirty laundry was still in the basket in the same way.
00:46:49
Speaker
Or like there, there was a a girl that died and like, uh, like, like her shoes were in the exact same place that she left them. And it's it's really, obviously, it's it's terrifyingly sad. And if you watch it, you are going to cry unless you're made of stone. um And I think it's really important. I mean, it's it's a really important um look into this really crazy and strange phenomenon that occurs in America um and unfortunately in other parts of the world too, but like let's face it, mostly in America. And, um, and to be able to do it like this, I think is really strangely touching and it's a good project. So look, this is not one to watch. If you're looking for a laugh, um, this is one, you know, like I, I watched it, you know, the other night cause I had nothing else to watch and I, it was a short one. It's good. I think that everyone should watch it. So if you, if you have a chance to, i think that you should, it's called all the empty rooms on Netflix.
00:47:47
Speaker
Sounds heartbreaking. It is. it is. All right. My next one is a Jonas Brothers Christmas. Oh, wait. Is this like new Jonas Brothers? Yes. So um this is currently on Disney Plus or Hulu, wherever you choose to decide to get the ah the content from ABC affiliates. or um Is it coming from OnlyFans maybe too? No, it's not. You wish. I wish it was.
00:48:12
Speaker
um But no, this is kind of a but I don't know if you remember the movie from the 90s. I'll be home for Christmas with Jonathan Taylor Thomas. they Yeah, i say I do. And it's a heartthrob of mine.
00:48:24
Speaker
It's kind of that. It's like the Jonas Brothers are on tour and they're they're finally finishing their tour and they just want to get home to be with their various families. So of course they do. Nick wants to get home to Priyanka. I can't remember all the different family dynamics, but and its it breaks down like they get a curse put on them from a from magic and it prevents them from getting home for Christmas. And it's just it's kind of just like, you know, things go wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah like that type of thing. Now I went into this thinking this is going to be a dumb movie. We've literally watched it the day after Thanksgiving. Like this was like, just let's put on something Christmassy. Let's see. Sure. And it ended up being a lot funnier than I thought it was going to be.
00:49:10
Speaker
So well that's good. Um, I highly recommend it It's got like a star studded cast. um I'm just looking at the IMDB right in front of me. um Let's see here. Billy Lord, Laverne Cox, um Randall Park, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. ah Just like a ton of people were in this movie. So I don't know who they who they paid to get yeah to get this done. But like...
00:49:33
Speaker
Honestly, if you're looking for like a Christmas movie, which I know that there's a ton out there with like, you know, literally Hallmark Channel being dedicated to it 24 hours a day. But like if you're looking for something fun and you want to see some cute boys and you want to see yeah that kid from Riverdale take his shirt off again.
00:49:50
Speaker
you know, why not? You know what? I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm into those things. Sounds like a good Christmas watch. It was fun. Um, I will do which one will I do next? I'll do this one. next I'll do a wicked for good, or this is, you know, the, the, the second half of the wicked, um film, um, saw this with my, uh, with my two sisters and my niece, uh, when I was back um in the States for, for Thanksgiving. and that we went to, you know, one of those gigantic cinemas with big, nice seats. It was really nice. um Yeah, so like I mean, it's good.
00:50:22
Speaker
um And, ah yeah know, I've heard a lot of people talk about it like, oh, it's boring or whatever. I'm like, y'all, it's the musical. Like, right. If you've ever seen the musical before, this is the musical like that. This is what happens in the second half of the show. It cannot be defying gravity over and over and over again.
00:50:39
Speaker
That is what the musical is. So like look, I think it was really good. I think it was well done, just like the first one. i think that the problem, though, is this. And i this is why I wish that they, I mean, we all know why they released it this way. They released it this way because they're going to make a shitload more money if they did. right But I think if you if you've not seen the second part of it yet, I would recommend if you can go see, because I know a lot of cinemas are doing this where you can see like like a double feature kind of thing.
00:51:07
Speaker
I would see it that way because i mean, look, there there is a problem with like going to see it is starting at the second half of it because i mean the second half is a downer like there's no way around that and so like if you don't have that full arc of it I don't know I don't think it works quite as well so I guess I'm saying like I can kind of understand why people are being a little shitty about it but I would say you know you should also check yourself on that But if you have a chance to see a double a double feature, do it. i I wish that I had done that when it when I saw this, to be honest. It just would have been it would have been more satisfying. It would have been more fun. There were a couple new songs in it. um you know i i I know Wicked pretty well. I wrote ah i wrote a a thesis on it in college. I've studied the book before. i know the musical extremely fucking well.
00:51:52
Speaker
This, I think, the whole thing together now has been a great interpretation of the musical and and and of the book and just sort of the whole thing together. And I think a lot of people forget that Wicked was written in 1995, for God's sake. it is It came out a very long time ago. So to see the evolution of it all the way to this point, I think is really incredible. One thing that i walked away from with this time from it with this time is fucking Nessa is a fucking cunt.
00:52:20
Speaker
I fucking actually hate you. Bach is a fucking dick. I hate you too. Like I hated more characters more than ever after watching it this time. And I was like, God, you actually you all really do fucking suck. Like you fucking suck. And like, God bless Elphaba. I don't know what else to say. You know, like it's so blah, blah, blah, blah. It's really good. Just if you have a chance, see them both together. I think you'll have a a better time if you do.
00:52:42
Speaker
Yeah, I'm excited to see this. I don't know Wicked, so I don't know what happens. You don't know happens? No. Oh, it's exciting for you. I'm so happy about that, actually. I've distinctly stayed away from all of it. Good you. Leave it that way, and it'll be interesting to hear what you think about it.
00:53:01
Speaker
But my guess is like everything that I'm hearing about, like, quote unquote, like reviews, because what everyone has something to say on the Internet. Yeah. But um is that I think that they're probably going to sell this as a double feature on a Blu-ray, like, you know, that's great type of thing. so All right. My next one is on shutter. It is a new release as of this. Listen, I think it came out, what, two weeks ago is when you were in town. Yeah.
00:53:28
Speaker
This is good boy. This is the um movie. you Watch it. It's the ghost movie from a dog's perspective. I guess it is the best way to put this. um Listen, I think it and here's here's my review. It's 75 minutes. So even if you don't like it, you've only watched 75 minutes. So perfect. Great. bad um The dog is a great actor as as well as well as I can put that because i and I didn't know this did a little bit of research. It's actually the director's dog. So think that's kind of cool. um
00:54:00
Speaker
Do I think that the story is like great? I don't know if you can get a great story in 75 minutes with a dog, you know, with a dog as like the main character. um And listen, the human in this is the biggest pile of shit. I mean, you you watch the movie and you understand why he it and why he's being a piece of shit. But like,
00:54:22
Speaker
Um, the, the basic story is this guy, ah goes to a, a home, um, that his grandfather owns with his dog to, to figure out some stuff and stuff starts going wrong. Is it a ghost? Is it the dog? Is it the human? We don't know. You got to figure that out for yourself. Um, but I would recommend it. I don't think it's like, it's not going to be in anyone's like top 10 list for the year. Sure. But I, I think it was a fun little concept and and a fun watch.
00:54:52
Speaker
Well, this might be one that I watched tonight. i'm looking forward to it now that I'm finally back. um My next one is one that I've been looking forward to for a long fucking time, and it is Ken Burns' The American Revolution. um so Of course. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, and and I'll tell you what, this one is more important than ever. i am i' I'm a Ken Burns fanatic. I think he all the work that he has done to document the history of America is incredible. If you've never seen the Civil War before, you've got fucking watch it. It's long. it There's so much to it.
00:55:27
Speaker
i did a rewatch of it this year, but it is fan fantastic. it's absolutely fantastic. um The war about about World War II, also very incredible. And then, you know, just a smattering of other documentaries about music or about sports or about this or about that. Ken Burns is a guy who loves America and he wants to tell the story as accurately as he can because history, the the history is, is always about truth.
00:55:55
Speaker
It's, it's never, it's not, it's not always about fact. Yeah. You know, especially in today's world or i fuck it, I should just say today's America. In today's America, fact is something that is is very um loose, very, very deep de prioritized in so many ways.
00:56:12
Speaker
And so what he's done with the American Revolution is bring voices that you've never heard before, bring parts of of the revolution that you've never heard before, um bring um bring scenarios that you've maybe never considered. And and he's giving you all new things to think about when it comes to the founding of the United States of America. And, you know, we all learn about that in school. If you go to school in America, ah you learn about in other places, too. But I mean, like, truly, the American Revolution is the most important event ever. in the past probably 300 years in in human history. Without the American Revolution, you would not have had democracy and in, well, obviously in America, but then in other parts of the world too. It wouldn't have happened in France. It wouldn't have happened here in Ireland. Ireland would, I guarantee you, still be a part of of the UK right now. So, I mean, there's so many things that the revolution caused across the entire world. um
00:57:12
Speaker
And some of the reasons why things happened during the revolution are things that we don't know that we don't learn. And so this brings in new narratives about slavery. It brings in new narratives about Native Americans that I had never heard before. And i I know quite a bit about the revolution. um Really interesting stuff. Just super compelling.
00:57:32
Speaker
So well done. And yeah, it's long. Everything from Ken Burns is long. But this is one, you know, it's a good Sunday watch kind of thing, you know, like watch a couple on this Sunday, watch a couple the next Sunday and finish it out the next one. um Or watch it all in one go like I did. um it's it's It's incredible. And I think it's it's pissing people off. you know I've seen reviews from conservative commentators saying that it's woke, saying that it's this, saying that it's that.
00:57:58
Speaker
Here's the deal, dude. It's just fucking real. Like this is what happened. These are the things that people wrote down then. That's how history occurs. You look at contemporary accounts of what actually occurred at the time, much like the 1518 fucking dancing plague. And then you put that together. yeah you you You synthesize it so people can understand it. And then that becomes history.
00:58:20
Speaker
And this is what it is right now. And of course, as you might imagine, people are saying, well, that's not how how it happened. Or this is woke. or that that You know what? Go fuck yourself. Let it go. Jesus Christ. This is the truth.
00:58:33
Speaker
This is the truth. And if there's anybody that you can trust on that, if I'm being real, it's Ken Burns. So watch this. Watch this. That's all I'm going to say. Watch it. Yeah. that's that i i'm I'm glad to hear. I'm sad that we're getting that kind of reaction to it because I feel like that's just a lazy person's way of reacting nowadays. 100%.
00:58:58
Speaker
But all right, cool. Well, I'm glad that you enjoyed it. Yeah. My last one I had to rent, but I had a credit on Amazon. So I agree got pretty much had it for free. um I rented the Witchboard remake.
00:59:11
Speaker
um This is a remake that has gone literally like unseen. Like, I i don't know. i didn't know they did this. ah So apparently it did like the um what do you call that? Like the the circuit, if you will, like the the film festival circuit. um But it's literally kind of being silently pushed on to on demand, which I don't really understand because I was like, oh, shit, this is going to be a mess. And like watching it I mean, it's just a very more serious version of which word, because if you remember when we did which board on the podcast, it had like, Oh, ah a crazy lesbian, uh, psychic, like, and like, you know I mean? Like yeah it was, it was like corny. it was like kind of like the corny version of the omen, if you will. Sure. Um, this is a much more serious version, but I still really enjoyed it. So awesome i don't, I don't know why it's not really gaining any traction. So I paid two 49 to watch this movie. Um, so I, I would say, give it a watch. It's, it kind of takes like the kookier parts of the original and gives it a little bit more weight, a little bit more seriousness. Like the, the kooky psychic is replaced with like, kind of like a, um,
01:00:27
Speaker
an an eccentric not elon musk but like that billionaire type of person who's trying to figure out like how to use the witch board for his own nefarious you know things yeah um and so like i kind of liked like the the new like more serious version and like how they kind of took the story so and and all the acting is good it's filmed very well so i mean if you overlooked this one I mean, if you want to wait till it's free, I can't guarantee when I know that's going to happen. But if you want to pay two bucks, like you can watch this movie. And I found it very highly enjoyable for a Friday night watch.
01:01:02
Speaker
That's awesome. Sounds I mean, it sounds good to me. Um, my, this my final one? It's my final one. My final one is Stranger Things season five, part one. so many things you have to say there.
01:01:12
Speaker
Um, yeah, it's great, man. It's really good. yeah Um, I, you know, I've been, I've been super excited for it. I even bought a Hellfire Club shirt, um, and and I've been wearing it and I actually really love wearing it now. And also I've been wearing it. I wore to the concert on Friday and worn it a couple of other times and people are like, yeah, cool shirt. And I'm like, yes, I feel cool. 43 year old.
01:01:31
Speaker
um Look, it's it's great. You know, the the only thing is that there's, as with the rest of Stranger Things, there's so much going on yeah like, you you have to pay attention to a lot of it. And so, like, I don't know. that that's That's not a criticism. I don't mean it that way.
01:01:49
Speaker
I just mean like, yeah, there's a lot going on. If you have not rewatched season four, i highly recommend that you do that before you you delve into any of this. um ah At least watch the last few episodes of season four and then go into season five. But it's the same old stuff. You know, all the people are back. It it feels great to see them again. They're having a good time. And it's, I don't know, it's just lovely. I i fucking love Stranger Things. i'm I'm so glad it's back. I can't wait to see the the the very end of it. And I think they've done they've done a great job with it so far.
01:02:18
Speaker
Yeah, watched this as well. And here's what I'll say about it. Finally, we're focused. Yeah, focused yeah on getting there because I felt very much like season four was very distracted with the offshoots to Russia and like all that stuff.
01:02:38
Speaker
I just needed them to be focused and they are yeah yeah and i'm excited to see. i get that. It's like, it's like, it's okay. if we, if we need to do the Russia thing, fine. But like, does it have to be the whole season? Let's be forever. Like, does it have to be like like a like a year in Russia? Like, can it be a little bit shorter? So I really do get that. And I agree with you. I think it is a lot more focused. And at the same time, it still has a ton of shit you have to keep in mind. So yeah.
01:03:03
Speaker
No, and i'm I'm very happy for a select group of characters that finally are getting a full arc um that maybe that maybe were overlooked in the past or kind of not overlooked. That's not the right word. um Like less rounded. And so I'm i'm i'm'm happy that they're finally getting some stuff to do. Well, and it was great to see some of the little gay things happening. that and That's very. and it And honestly, it was very cute to see. like Just like it just warms your heart. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, folks, look, that is it for what you've been watching, bitch. Andrew brought us I Love LA on HBO, a Jonas Brothers Christmas on Hulu, Good Boy on Shudder, and Witchboard, which is on demand.
01:03:44
Speaker
And Maddie brought us All the Empty Rooms, which is on netflix Netflix. Ken Burns, The American Revolution, which I'm sure is on PBS here. um Stranger Things Season 5 on Netflix. And Wicked for Good, which I think is still in the theaters as of this ah recording and ah as of this, like, when you're listening to it. Exactly. so So, folks, listen. That's it for what you've
In-depth Discussion on 'Suspiria'
01:04:08
Speaker
been watching, Mitch. We'll be right back with the first film of the episode, Suspiria.
01:04:16
Speaker
The iris are blue, but the iris is the flower.
01:04:52
Speaker
Suspiria. But you cannot escape.
01:05:06
Speaker
The only thing more terrifying than the last 12 minutes
01:05:21
Speaker
Witch. It's time to talk about Suspiria. Maddie, tell us all about Suspiria. That was Mother Marcos herself right there, I think. Suspiria.
01:05:33
Speaker
The only thing more terrifying in the last 12 minutes of this film are the first 92. And yes, that is an actual thing that they put for the tagline. um American ballet student Susie Banyan travels to a prestigious dance academy in Germany. only to discover that something sinister is lurking within its walls. As strange murders and supernatural events unfold, Susie uncovers that the school is secretly controlled by a coven of witches.
01:05:59
Speaker
Isolated, drugged, and increasingly endangered, she must confront the ancient evil at the heart of the academy before it consumes her. Suspiria is directed by Dario Argento, the legend himself, written by Dario Argento and Daria Nicolodi. The film is also partially based on the 1845 essay Suspiria de Profundis by Thomas De Quincey. Suspiria has Jessica Harper as Susie Banyan, Stefania Cassini as Sarah, Flavio Bucci as Daniel, Miguel Bozze as Mark, and Alida Valli as Miss Tanner, the head teacher. The film is rated R. It is 99 minutes long, made in Italy, go figure. It was released February 1st of 1977, filmed in two places. it was filmed on the back lot in Rome and also on location in Munich. The budget is actually unknown, but the gross for it was 1.43 billion lira. And no, I do not know what that equates to in dollars today. So ah this is not a first time watch for either of us. Andrew, tell me what you thought about Suspiria on this viewing.
01:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, so um I've actually only seen this version only once before. Yeah. So this is only my second watch. Um, overall, like, i think that this is one of those weird ones. And I, I think that it's maybe because I was not introduced to Italian slash like this kind of horror until like very late in my like horror journey, if you will. Yeah. But like it's these movies for me, they're a little hard for me to get into.
01:07:39
Speaker
Um, just because it's a different, um, way of telling stories. ah than we're used to in America where there's kind of like ah a three beat, you know, pattern that you that you go you get the the the story, then the setup, then the conclusion. Whereas with a lot of Italian horror, there's a lot of like, and then we're doing this and then we're doing this and then we're doing this. Yeah, sure. And so like, it's a little jarring for me to watch Suspiria just because there are a lot of times where I'm like, well, what happened about what? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I know we're moving on to the next thing, but what about this thing? Sure. sure Yeah. And so like, I, I love looking at this movie and I love listening to this movie. And there are parts that I, that I really enjoy. Like um there's, there's like a whole section in the middle of this movie that I really get like involved in like what's going on. Yeah. um And like I think the ending is,
01:08:31
Speaker
pretty satisfying even though it's very abrupt um yeah but overall like i have a good time with this movie i think that it's just like not my favorite of horror from this from this time period yeah um But I think like if I just like if I just use my eyeballs and my ear balls and I didn't pay attention to like plot or story, think I would I think I would love this movie. But unfortunately, because I have to watch it for the podcast that I have to like dissect it and think about it. it does like lose a couple points for me. Um, but overall still a fun watch. I mean, and I could listen to the soundtrack but look literally like on repeat. Oh, totally. My God. Yes. What about you?
01:09:18
Speaker
Yeah. Um, yeah, I've, I've, I've seen it, i think twice before. um and, Yeah, I feel kind of similar to you. you know And for me, like you know that I am a huge fan of what Luca Guadagnino did with it in 2018. I think that was just, it was brilliant. It was absolutely near the end of 2018. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Go back episode 11. Witches are terrifying. There you go. And I absolutely, I adored, I just i just adored it. And I still adore it to this day. i I think that, and I don't mean to talk about another movie in place of this movie, but...
01:09:51
Speaker
I think, you know, along the same lines as you, like if if all I was doing was listening to the Goblin soundtrack and looking at the colors, I'd be like, yes, how fun is this? But like when it comes down to like the substance of the story, i think that Luca just did a much better job with it.
01:10:06
Speaker
yeah it's It's hard to say a better job but because i mean, his it was a reboot and, and obviously without, without this, without this film, it could have never been done. ah he, I think that he enhances it in a way that was just really well done.
01:10:23
Speaker
And in this one, you know, it is, it's, it's highly stylized and that includes the acting. So the acting is so stylized that sometimes you're kind of like, okay, all right, got it. um But you know, like you said, there's just so many other elements of the movie that are so fun and they're so Argento that like it's, it's impossible to, to either ignore this movie or to think that it's terrible. Cause I definitely don't think that I had, I have a good time watching this.
01:10:48
Speaker
um And I think it's, it's, i mean, if you think about the time that it came out in 77, Think about how inventive this was. Like truly, there was nothing. You have to give it credit there, yeah. A hundred percent. There was nothing else like this out then at all. Not even a story like this. And actually, while I'm talking, i did do a little research in, because I had never heard the thing about the Thomas DeQuincey thing. So let me tell you a little bit about how that essay, which I had never heard of, once again from the 19th century, informed the movie. Are you ready for this? Sure.
01:11:18
Speaker
Okay, so first of all, the three mothers come straight out of De Quincey's essay. So in the section that he calls Levana and Our Ladies of Sorrow, De Quincey personifies three metaphysical embodiments of human suffering. Matra Suspiriorum, the mother of size, Matra Lacrimarum, the mother of tears, and Matra Tenebrarum, the mother of darkness. Argento takes these allegorical figures and transforms them into ancient, powerful witches who rule hidden covens across the world. Suspiria focuses on Mater Suspiriorum, whose human guise is Helena Marcos, founder of the Tans Dance Academy.
01:11:58
Speaker
Argento then turns psychological horror into supernatural horror. So De Quincey's mothers are internal spiritual symbolic forces, embodiments of sorrow dwelling in the human psyche.
01:12:08
Speaker
Argento externalizes them. The academy becomes a literal place where Mater Suspiriorum hides, and the surreal interiority of De Quincey becomes the film's architecture, Baroque, dreamlike, and disorienting, which is pretty interesting. It's as though the psychological landscape of Suspiria de Profundis is rebuilt as a physical building with walls of stained glass and death traps.
01:12:33
Speaker
Next, the aesthetic sensibility mirroring De Quincey's dream world. De Quincey writes in a feverish, opium-infused style, obsessed with nightmares, symbolic women, labyrinthine spaces, and overwhelming color, sound, and sensation. and all of that should make sense after you watch suspiria for god's sake so it's it's right this must have really obviously deeply influenced uh dario argento um and then finally the expansion to a mythos because that comes directly from de quincey this is pretty obvious now Um, Argento didn't just borrow the names. He took the idea of a secret ancient sisterhood and then built an entire trilogy. So you've got Suspiria, of course, 77, uh, Inferno in 1980. That's about Mater Tenebrarum and then Mother of Tears, 2007, Mater
01:13:20
Speaker
Guadagnino's Suspiria from 2018 also returns to those same themes. So Luca Guadagnino's film is even closer in spirit to De Quincey than Argento's. It centers on memory, trauma, collective guilt, and psychic rupture. All those are core to what De Quincey wrote. It meditates on female power and suffering in a metaphysical way. And it lingers on the idea of size, not as fear, but as emotional release. So then finally, Quincey introduces Levana, the Roman goddess who quote unquote lifts the child, symbolizing how we are shaped, sometimes painfully, into who we become. So both Suspiria films associate the Dance Academy with this concept. It's a place of training, but also a place of transformation. And then girls are shaped and sometimes broken by the mothers. The Academy becomes a metaphor for developmental terror as if LaVonna's sisters are guiding and tormenting the students. So that's just a little bit about what actually influenced this film. I didn't know that before. um so I found it pretty interesting.
01:14:24
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. um I'm trying to think like, so what are the, so here's what I think works in the movie. Tell me. I think that the opening and kind of like the setup of everything really does work. i like I like the little voiceover at the beginning talking about like how she's moving to Germany to join the ballet. dot dot da but da you you You almost think like this time around and I've seen it before, but like this time bo around, I was like, wait a minute, is that an error that it's happening right then? And then it's it's actually really cool the way that it happens. I agree. Yeah. um And then I think getting to the school, getting acclimated to all the different characters, I think works really well. I especially love when ah Miss Tanner, she's introducing her to the school and she goes, oh, that's Pablo's. He is very ugly.
01:15:10
Speaker
but Jesus. Um, and you know, we, we, we see Daniel and we see Susie and we see like all these different, I'm sorry, so ah Sarah and all these different characters who will never interact with, but we see them now. So I think that works really well. Um, and then I think like things go a little off the deep end for me when the maggots get introduced because I don't really understand what it means to the story. Yeah. Fair.
01:15:40
Speaker
Um, because the only thing that it, really evolves the movie is that we get introduced to the directress, right? That's what they prefer to. yeah And that she like snores weird. Like that's like the only thing that we really learn.
01:15:57
Speaker
um Who is her roommate? I can't remember her name. ah Because Pat is the girl from the beginning who gets killed in in the stained glass window hook thing. why I'm looking this up right It's Olga. Olga is the first roommate. Yeah, yeah.
01:16:18
Speaker
Is is Olga and I'm asking this your opinion on this because it's never definitively kind of like told to you in the movie because that's one of my big but one of my biggest pet peeves about this movie and then I'll ask about Olga is that we drop storylines like it's like we're like we're all dropping off garbage like you know me completely yeah um Do you think Olga is in on it?
01:16:43
Speaker
Or like, do you think like, i don't know if you remember the first omen, like when she has like that roommate who's kind of like in on it the whole time. um Do you think that Olga's in on it? Or do you think that Olga is just another student?
01:16:55
Speaker
I think she's just another student. I mean, I think that she might know some things are up. Like, like I think a lot of the students do, but i I don't think that she's part of the part of like the conspiracy. Yeah. Okay. And then my other question is, is do you think Daniel is a part of it?
01:17:10
Speaker
Hmm. I don't know. tell Tell me more. Tell me more about what about why you think that. Well, because Daniel, i don't know if you remember this part, but like when he, that when they, they kind of like exchange glances and he brings her luggage to the, to the, to the room and everything. And like they, they're, they're interacting and then they have this moment where they're all in the, in the,
01:17:29
Speaker
I, the best way to put it is in like the dance room, but on the cots after the maggots. And he has like this kind of like flirty wave, but then Sarah, it's either Sarah or one of the other girls says something to the atone of like, Oh no, he's gay.
01:17:43
Speaker
And like, so I wasn't sure if he was there to try to seduce Susie into like staying at the school or and if I'm reading too much into it. I think, uh, uh, uh,
01:17:55
Speaker
I i don once again, I for him to I don't think that he's in on it, but I can kind of see why like hearing that from you, I can kind of see why you might think that like they're all saying he's gay, but he's obviously flirting with Susie. So what's the thing there? Yeah, I don't know.
01:18:10
Speaker
And that's my biggest that's my biggest beef about this movie is that a lot of like the good plot points don't really matter in the like grand scheme of the movie. Like like, for instance, The, the blind piano player. um What does he do wrong to equivocate them setting up his dog to kill him? Because I know that he bites the one, the the dog bites the little child, but there's definitely a moment where like the um heavyset woman and the child are like,
01:18:41
Speaker
that you definitely know that they're going after the dog. Like it's, it's like, they're putting like a spell on the dog essentially. i like i think, I think in that case it's, it's a bit of like, um like they, they also clearly enjoy like causing pain.
01:18:55
Speaker
Like, you think that's what i I think a bit, I mean, like, You know, it's it's sort of like, um not to bring in another movie about witches, but it's sort of like Hocus Pocus. You know I mean? So like Hocus Pocus at the outset is like these fun witches who are, they like to dance and they make up songs and this and that, whatever. And you want to know what else they do? They eat children. Like that is what they do. you know what mean? And like,
01:19:16
Speaker
when you When you come back to that, you're like, oh, wait a minute. Yeah, they are actually pretty fucking evil. Or like in Dr. Sleep, when you really learn how evil, ah that whatever that group is called, when you really learn how evil they are. The true not. That's it. That's it. And I think it's the case here, too. It's like these are not these are not like good witches. Like these are evil.
01:19:39
Speaker
These are evil cunts like who want to do terrible things so that they can live forever. And so I i think that is part of it. And i and maybe i I don't think that that that this version maybe does it as well. Once again, it's like Guadagnino's does, because in Guadagnino's, it's just so it's fucking brutal what you see from them. And don't get me wrong for this for 77. Yes, it's brutal. I just think that that look at Guadagnino just like like amped it up to 100. So I think that might be it is that like, look, they're just they're fucking evil. They want to do bad shit.
01:20:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's just it's very strange to me because like, I feel like the blind, the it and I'm strictly talking about the blind piano player. I'm fixated on on this part of it because he is only a servant to them. Like he only does like good things for them. It's not like he's there like trying to figure out what's going on or trying to like, you know, like, yeah,
01:20:32
Speaker
And so like, I just didn't understand why he was a victim. Like, I understand that, you know, Madam, uh, what, what is Madam Marcos? Yeah. Madam Marcos, like that. She feeds off energy from, from harming, from doing pain. Like I, I get that, but like you have 45 other students that you can inflict pain on. that's true Why that guy? Like, you know what i mean? Like, he just plays piano while people dance. Like, so i mean, like, i don't know, you know, I i think, you know, maybe part of it it goes goes back to her name, you know, being the mother of size, which is just like, if you think about that, it's like hopelessness. It's, it's, I wonder if maybe part of, of what her, like the way that she works in the world is, is by causing things that don't make any sense, you know, that, that cause you to go like, well, why?
01:21:21
Speaker
why did it have to be the blind piano player? was just a good guy. Like, why does he have to die? Or why, you know, why does he have to have things happen to him? Like maybe that, maybe that that's part of like her role based on being the mother of size.
01:21:33
Speaker
And, um, the other part that I was a little confused about because, is So when Susie first gets, um when she's first dancing, when she gets kind of put under the spell by the woman and the child in the in the hallway, by the flashy obelisk thing, um she gets like sick, but then like she's okay.
01:21:56
Speaker
And then, but they give her wine every night. Is that like to slowly drain her of her like energy? Is that well how you kind of took it? I don't, I wasn't sure how to take that. I think it's a fair question. I think it's a good reading, too. I think that makes a lot of sense because, I mean, we' weren't there like there? There's got to be drugs in that wine, too. Oh, absolutely. That's why she can't stay awake. Exactly. So, I mean, like, that's like that is just slowly doing it.
01:22:20
Speaker
um And it's like maybe they're just like drawing energy from her as they go kind of thing. I don't know. Yeah, it's just it's it's just an interesting like and like I said, this is my biggest gripe with the movie is that they bring up all these like ideas and they bring up all these like ah these like mysteries and stuff. but then they don't really like answer many of them because it's just at the end. She just stabs the true mistress and that are the actress. And like, I'm sorry, people are probably getting tired of me doing this. They're probably going shut up, Maddie. But like once again, let's go back to the the rebooted version.
01:22:53
Speaker
he, he takes care of that. He gives you an ending that like you can live with and that you can walk away with, which is very different from this one. And like, look, this is a fun ending. It's, it is, as you said it before, it's satisfying, but it is also fucking abrupt. I think you said that earlier. It's like, bam, all of a sudden it's there. And then the credits roll pretty good. They're on fire. yeah And like, it's just, it's all so fast. You barely even have a chance to like catch up with it. But then at the same time, like that is the rhythm of this, of this version of the movie. Yeah. that
Critique of 'Suspiria' and Conclusion
01:23:22
Speaker
it is very fast. Goblins going all the time, whether you like it or not. And like, it's, it, it has that motion to it. So it kind of makes sense with it, of course, but yeah. Anyways. Well, and then there's like, there's characters that pop up and pop down like throughout the entire movie that you're like, wait. So like my pragmatic mind at the end, when the, when the school is on fire is I was like, well, did Daniel make it out?
01:23:44
Speaker
Like did Daniel, Olga make it out like when are all these people that were meant to care about where'd you go and um i I do feel really really bad for Sarah she gets definitely the short end of the stick with this with this movie because she pretty much is ah telling Susie you know this is what Pat was saying at the B at the beginning and And I wanted to be like, Susie, are you fucking dense? Like you literally were sitting with the the, the main woman. I can't think of her name right now. The, not the directress, but like the main school marm, the only one that spoke English for real. Miss, miss, miss Tanner. Right.
01:24:26
Speaker
No, not Miss Tanner. The they actual headmistress. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. She's like sitting with her and like talking with her. And literally right in between them are the three secret irises. like yeah They're just ah painted on the wall. And she she's like, um i think i said I think Pat said something about something some secret irises. And I was like, you stupid bitch look right next to you.
01:24:49
Speaker
Yeah.
01:24:52
Speaker
Um, but, and, uh, sorry, just to go back to Sarah really quick because she's kind of the, um, the tortured soul in this because she gets, uh, hunted down. She falls into a, a room of razor wire. do you have room of razor wire in your house? And I gotta say that is one of like the most disturbing images from the film because like you do like, you can't help but look at that and then think, oh my God, what if I was in a barrel of razor wire?
01:25:18
Speaker
How, how fun would that be? Like, it's, it's terrifying. Yeah. It had to have been what what's his face got from the original saw where that guy had to get out of the box of razor wire and like the amount of time.
01:25:31
Speaker
um And then and and then to fall to put um insult upon injury, she's stuck in the razor and then gets stabbed to death and then also gets turned into a human doll. Yep. to only be um the distraction to try to kill Susie at the end. Luckily, Susie has some sort of second sight or something to be able to see the outline of Marcos and stab her, which I was like, wow, this i'm like you, you're, you're this all powerful witch that's been at this dance Academy slash occult Academy for like hundreds of years, but that's how you go down. Yeah, I guess. Yeah.
01:26:06
Speaker
um I do want to mention, i mentioned this on a previous episode when we talked about demons before and Suspiria. But when Andrew and I were in Rome around my 40th birthday in what year was that? 2022? Was that really 2022? Jesus. yes That feels like a long and time ago.
01:26:22
Speaker
um We went to Profunda Rosso, which is Dario Argento's store in Rome. If you're ever in Rome, you got to go It's it's on Via dei Gracchi and it's fantastic. It is. Make sure you go to the basement. Oh, you've got to go to the fucking basement because there is a museum down there where there are different vignettes based on the movies.
01:26:45
Speaker
um And honestly, I can't remember what the one was for Suspiria. I don't remember it at all. For some reason, I only remember the opera one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're not you're not supposed to take photos on i mean, you probably could, but you're not supposed to. So I i i don't think either of us did. like we We honored that. But like it was it's really cool. if If you get a chance to go, if you're ever in Rome and you're a horror fan, you've got to go check it out because it's just ridiculous. And the store has just...
01:27:09
Speaker
It is literally filled. There is no free space in that store. Everything is filled with merchandise in one way or another. um So it's it's a blast. if If you're ever there, you got to go. Yeah. two Two things I just wanted to say about this movie that are kind of in like the funny category. But sure why is German glass so fragile?
01:27:27
Speaker
Because everyone's fallen through all kinds of glass. I blame the Nazis. I blame the Nazis. And then the other thing is the author that she talks to, the one that she learns all the things about the, ah not not the investigator, but like the author that she talks to, that man has the longest eyebrows I have ever seen in my life. ah I'm just saying he needs to go go get a little bit of a trim.
01:27:55
Speaker
Well, Andrew, listen, when it comes to Suspiria, tell me what you rated this film. Here at Fraggy the 13th Horror Podcast, we judge on a seven-stripe scale for the seven stripes the grand old rainbow. I give the original Suspiria a four and a half.
01:28:10
Speaker
And when I said, and I said, ah sometimes I forget what we do here. um yeah And I said, if style and score were the only things we were scoring, this would be a seven. But abandoned plot lines and strange acting pushes this one down a bit for me.
01:28:27
Speaker
Andrew and I are completely aligned on this. I also give it a four and a half and I had pretty similar sentiments. I said, look, I'm sure I'll be roasted for this, but I still hold the Guadagnino's take on Suspiria as a superior homage in all respects. This is a great flick. Don't get me wrong. But the 2018 Suspiria adds substance where this film lacks.
01:28:46
Speaker
All that said, the staging, the Goblin soundtrack, the colors, the stylized murders, they're absolutely classic. All right. Well, that will do it for Suspiria. We'll take a quick break and be right back with Black Swan.
01:29:00
Speaker
I had the craziest dream last night about a girl who was turned into a swan. But her prince falls for the wrong girl, and she kills herself.
01:29:13
Speaker
He promised to feature me more this season. Well, he should. You've been there long enough. And you're the most dedicated dancer in the company.
01:29:23
Speaker
Our new swan queen, the exquisite Nina Sayers.
01:29:31
Speaker
Lily. You're gonna be amazing. Watch the way she moves. Sensual. She's not faking it. Seduce us. Attack it. Attack it. Come on.
01:29:42
Speaker
Where'd you get these? It's nothing. You sweet girl. touch, respond to it. Someone's hot for teacher. i don't want to talk about that.
01:29:52
Speaker
We really need to relax. It's the role, isn't it? It's all this pressure. I knew it'd be too much. I knew it. What's she doing here? He made me alternate. The only person standing in your way is you.
01:30:12
Speaker
have my ways.
01:30:15
Speaker
She's after me. Nobody's after you. finished Please believe me. Sweet girl.
01:30:27
Speaker
Sweet girl. What happened to my sweet girl? She's gone.
01:30:34
Speaker
She's gone.
01:30:57
Speaker
This one's not about the white swan. It's about the black swan. Or is it? Andrew, tell us all about black swan. i just want to be perfect. Nina Sayers, a dedicated New York City ballerina, is chosen to play the White Swan in a new production of Swan Lake.
01:31:16
Speaker
When she must also embody the dark, seductive Black Swan, a role better suited to her rival Lily, Nina's perfectionism, psychological pressure, and fear spiral into a chilling breakdown. The line between reality and hallucination blurs as Nina becomes consumed by her role.
01:31:35
Speaker
Directed by Darren Aronofsky, written by Andres Hines, John J. McLaughlin, and the story by Andres Hines. ah Production was handled by Protozoa Pictures, Phoenix Pictures, and Cross Creek Pictures, distributed by Fox Searchlight Pictures. um Nina slash the White Swan, Black Swan is played by Natalie Portman. Lily is played by Mila Kunis. Thomas Leroy is played by Vincent Cassel. Eric Erica Sayers is played by Barbara Hershey welcome to the podcast miss her love barbara she
01:32:10
Speaker
and Beth McIntyre is played by Winona Ryder which I forgot completely about this is rated R comes in at 108 minutes was made in New York City New York Released on December 17th of 2010, the budget was $13 million. And this baby brought in $330 million dollars and was a darling of the Oscar season that year. yeah So, Matty, you said you've never seen Black Swan before. yeah Tell me your initial thoughts. Well, you know I'll tell you, that the biggest thing for me, if I'm being honest, and like look, I love Darren Aronofsky. I don't love everything. Don't get me wrong. like like For example, I literally...
01:32:51
Speaker
I hate mother with a fiery passion. I will never do it on podcast. I absolutely I hated that fucking movie so so much like to this day. I still feel very angry about it as you can tell but like other movies like pie for example. I think pie is an absolute masterpiece. I fucking love that movie um and this is one like look i I really enjoyed it. I'm glad that I finally watch this um and it was only a dollar more when I was renting it. So I just bought it um for four ninety nine US dollars.
01:33:20
Speaker
Anyways, um the thing that I took away from it though at the end is that of course I've heard so many things about it before, about how wild it is and crazy is whatever. It was surprisingly not as wild as I thought it was going to be.
01:33:31
Speaker
Like, you know, it's it's a crazy story. There's a lot to it, a lot of psychological stuff. And, you the ending is crazy and all that kind of stuff. But I definitely thought it was going to be a little more hardcore than it turned out to be for me. um So I was really surprised at that. um I think that Natalie Portman did a fantastic job. i don't know how you feel about her in this, but like, I thought she was great. And like, I, I think that she did all the dancing, right? She did. Am I wrong? Do you know? I think she did a majority of it. I think a lot of the stuff that's like far back is maybe a body double. That's fair. Okay. But I mean like the stuff that she did, she's pretty fucking good at it. So that's, that's cool. Yeah. the story
01:34:10
Speaker
Yeah. And like, I think Vincent Castle was really great in the role. I think Mila Kunis was great. How can you not love seeing Barbara Hershey in this and Winona Ryder? Like, so it's a great cast. It's a good story. um i i really enjoyed it. I'm looking forward to watching it again. That's my take on it, just as a very brief take.
01:34:29
Speaker
All right. um I kind of fall in the same line as you. Yeah. um Unlike unlike you, I'm i'm not a huge Aronofsky person. Like, yeah it's a lot of his stuff goes a little too weird for me. um But this one, I think because it's I don't know if it's his debut. It can't be. But I think it's like an earlier movie for him. um It's a little more subdued, I think. um And I think that that's like a good thing for him. Yeah, I think it it it gives you a little bit more story um like you i think that all the all the all the players in this movie um all do their job very well you know including natalie portman including being a fucking creep away with uh vincent cassell or whatever asshole yeah um and so like i i think that this is a really well acted movie i think that some of the story don't
01:35:18
Speaker
I'm going to be honest, and it's in my like main takeaway. Yeah, say it. I don't really know like what happened. I'm still like kind of thinking about it. um Well, like there's this show I mean, should we just talk about that right away then?
01:35:30
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, yeah. and I mean, there's just there's a lot of things that they do debate and switch on you. like Yeah. So I'm going to tell you, like literally, what i thought what I thought was going to happen. Everyone's everyone's going to be like, why do you why are you on a podcast, you fucking goon?
01:35:45
Speaker
um I thought that she would turn into a swan. I'm not joking. but i mean like Like an actual body dysmorphia. But also that that's because I've seen a lot of Darren Aronofsky's movies. And like to be honest, that's not out of the realm of possibility for him. If I'm being real. I mean, you watched you watched Titane. exactly God, what a movie. But like i mean that's that's just it. like i I thought it was going to be something really fucking crazy at the end. in the end it turns out that she was making this up the entire time in her head and and you know the the person that she thought was out to get her actually wasn't she was just another you know woman in the in the in the troop and like yeah they're all catty but like welcome to ballet what do what do you think is going to happen and in the end it was just her the whole time like fighting against herself and vincent castle even says that to her at the end something of like it's all in your head or something like that So that when she when she pulls out the glass from her stomach, when she thought she was stabbing Lily, she stabbed herself.
01:36:43
Speaker
And so she she she she turned the black swan into something that she thought was out to get her. The entire time, she was always sabotaging herself.
01:36:54
Speaker
So here are my here are my main questions. And you know this is obviously up for interpretation because we know it's a movie. We didn't make it. So like that this is just what we think. But like so do you think that um Lily...
01:37:07
Speaker
did they ever have anything? Like, did they ever like hook up? Did they ever like, how much of that, question how much of that night actually happened? Like, were were they in the cab together? And she did that little, like come hither. i do think, I do think some stuff happened. And I think that when Lily goes like, i yeah, I know stuff's been weird between us. i think I think that's it encapsulated in a very like millennial throwaway line. You know what mean?
01:37:33
Speaker
And so like they went out, they did drugs, they got wasted, they did they did crazy things. i think I think that something actually did happen and that... ah But but but also like we don't know exactly how it all plays out because now we know that clearly she is.
01:37:48
Speaker
i don't know what what we want to say here mentally disturbed or yeah whatever. i forget I forget what her mother says. Her mother says that she's unwell. Like clearly she is unwell. So we're seeing this mostly from not from her point of view, but we're seeing it most closely related to her point of view. So I don't know how much we can trust, but I do think that something happened. I do. I think if something didn't happen, I think Lily wouldn't have said, i know things have been weird between us.
01:38:16
Speaker
Hmm. Or, or, or, or whatever she said. I think like my only, my only like hiccup with that is that so earlier. So listen, I have not seen this movie since I saw it in the theater. So it's been, it's like, it was like watching a fresh movie. So I'm kind of coming off a little fresh, but um a rash movie.
01:38:34
Speaker
So for a second, I was like, wait, is her mom real? Because she never interacts with anyone. I think her mom is real. ah So that it was answered finally in the movie. Like I was, i was, I was going along and I was like, is she real? Is like, is she not?
01:38:50
Speaker
And then her and Lily have an interaction in the, in the hallway. And so I was like, okay, so she is real. But the only other part that was weird to me is when they come back from the bar and they're having like the interaction with the mom. Yeah.
01:39:08
Speaker
The mom is only interacting with Nina. She's not interacting with Lily. Oh, that's interesting. And she never says anything to Lily or says like, you two or you guys or you two girls or like, what are you girls up to? Like that kind of a thing. And so I think from when she leaves the bar, like when she's like freaking out and she's making out with that guy in the bathroom and she like stumbles into the street,
01:39:34
Speaker
I personally think from that moment on, she made it all up in her head. I mean, that's that's interesting. neil I wonder too, like are like, once again, are we just seeing what's close to her perception of her mom in that moment?
01:39:48
Speaker
You know what I mean? like But you know once again, we don't know. And like that's that's kind of classic Darren Aronofsky. You don't always know what's going on. he just Things just fucking occur.
01:39:59
Speaker
I don't know. and And my other question. and My other question and and for interpretation here is did she stab Winona Ryder at the end or was that how it played out where she went crazy and started stabbing herself? What is, what is your thought on that? i now that you say it, I don't know.
01:40:21
Speaker
I don't, and I don't think that she did. I don't think that she did because, because what does she say? She was like, she says something about like, head it in my nose. She said something like, I'm i'm i'm not perfect. I'm nothing.
01:40:37
Speaker
And then start stabbing herself. But is that her or is that what Natalie Portman's perception is putting on her? You know what you mean? like i think I think the whole thing was a hallucination.
01:40:47
Speaker
Yeah, probably. um One thing I will say about this movie for being a movie back in 2010 is that it does get the body horror stuff pretty good. Oh, fuck. you There's a lot of this shit that just really, really creeps you out. Like I distinctly remember and I was dreading it. Thankfully, it's not as bad as I remembered. Yeah. The nail bed. Oh, yeah. like we we've seen it worse in movies, but I remember when I saw this in 2010 and it was like a distinct memory that I have, like, you know, like when you think back to movies, you think about specific scenes. And that was like one of the scenes that I remembered. And so was like, I'm not looking forward to this. I want to see it. And I was like, I think Barbara Hershey fucking steals this movie. If anybody, mean, I love her. She just love Natalie Portman does an amazing job in this movie, but there's something very nuanced about the,
01:41:35
Speaker
um the way that the mother is played and like how she infantilizes ah her her daughter. And we don't really know. like The dad's never mentioned. We don't know what happened. like That's not a thing. But like we know that she was ah ah she was a ballerina. And we're led to believe that maybe she was under the same... company director or maybe he was her choreographer or something because she says something ah along the lines of like you know he's known for this or like you should have known or that kind of a thing um and then she says something along the lines of like um what what natalie natalie poorman turns into a giant bitch by the end of this movie because she's like she says to her mom she's like what career and she and then her mom says the career i left to have you and i was like yeah this is this is ah
01:42:24
Speaker
Handed down trauma 101. For real. For real. um I will say that if one thing that I had to criticize about the movie, other than like leaving a lot of questions up in the air, is that I am so happy that we don't make shaky cam movies like this that much anymore. Thank God.
01:42:42
Speaker
Because I don't know about you, but the, towards the beginning of the movie, it settles down a little bit, like more towards like the middle and end of the movie. But like, There was so much shaky cam, especially like when she's doing like her dancing where I was just like, can you stop? Like we have steady cams for a reason. Like stop like this. That really was a thing for a while. Oh, yeah. It was honestly making me a little bit like almost like car sick a little bit at the beginning. I don't know if you noticed it or not.
01:43:12
Speaker
Did you notice that, though? I did. Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, you know, it's one of those things where like i but if you always do a good job of of observing the things and then bringing them to my attention. And like now that you say it, I'm like, oh, yeah, that actually was pretty shaky. I don't think it bothered me as much.
01:43:27
Speaker
But like I'm thinking like if I had seen this in the cinema, how would I have felt about it being shaky like that? Well, I think all movies were like this. So we were just used to it. That's a good point. God.
01:43:39
Speaker
um i think that mila kunis was probably perfectly casted in this movie she was play kind of like to play kind of like the the like carefree like like saucy girl i don't know like the better way to put it but like um my favorite line from her she was she's talking to natalie portman about like oh unless your name was tom and you had a dick we did not hook up last night and she goes wait she goes wait did you have some sort of fantasy leslie bedroom about me and then she goes was i good and I was like, that's really funny, actually. Yeah. You know, maybe, i guess maybe the sexual encounter didn't happen.
01:44:13
Speaker
Now that you say i don't think it did. ah Now that you say that. But I mean, but something, don't you think something happened, though? Yeah, I just don't know what it is. We only have the perception of her. So we don't know. true I mean, look, it's like here we are talking about it. This is a confusing movie. Like it is. Yeah, it is not straightforward in the fucking least. So in that same vein, do you think that Lily was hooking up with that male dancer who she strokes the cock of? Or was that in her head, too?
01:44:43
Speaker
You know what? Now that now that we're we're on this this long series of questions, I have no idea. I'll be honest. I don't know. um There are a couple of nuances in this movie that I really appreciated it. um I love the piano player what he when she's practicing, practicing, practicing, and all a sudden he just stops and she's like, ah what what happened? And he's like, i have a life.
01:45:03
Speaker
but You need to link me out figure it out. Maybe you should get one too. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's like there's one little part and it kind of echoes back to our horror in real life is where she's being fit for the costume.
01:45:16
Speaker
And the um costumer says like, ah you know, she measures her waist and she's like, oh, you you lost weight. And it's not it's not like you lost weight like how I just said it. It's just kind of like, oh, you lost weight like a diamond. have to take in the costume. It's a matter of fact.
01:45:33
Speaker
but the But the look and the nuance on Natalie Portman's face where she just has like a joy of like, i I lost weight. That's pretty awesome. like Don't give me any icing, Mother. I'm losing weight.
01:45:47
Speaker
There's little things in there that are really good. Now, so you didn't see this in the theater. Do you remember anything about like anything that happened beyond this movie? Honestly, no.
01:45:59
Speaker
So this is where this movie. Do you mean like, like, like SNL stuff and this No, I'm talking about like in in real life stuff. Okay. So this is where it gets a little icky for me and we're watching it this time, knowing it got even ickier.
01:46:17
Speaker
Did you, did you remember when Natalie Portman accepted the Oscar for this movie? What did, what did she say? She was pregnant. Was she really?
01:46:29
Speaker
Do you know who she was pregnant by? Oh, God, who? Tell me. The choreographer of this movie. So, wait, Vincent Castle? no No, no, no, no, no. The the actual choreographer. oh No way.
01:46:44
Speaker
Seriously? And they ended up getting married and were married for... They were married up until 2022, 2024. Oh, Okay. They just got divorced. But thinking about what this movie is about and about how the all the sexual stuff with the ah and product the producer, but the ballet director and the choreographer, and then how that must have...
01:47:08
Speaker
mimicked in real life makes me feel gross. I did not know that at all. And that is, thatt that's fucking wild. That's insane. Yeah. I mean, listen, they were married for 12 years. It's all fine. Like I'm sure it's, they have a child together. I'm sure it's fine, but like in the grand scheme of what this movie is about and how fucking horny that choreographer is. And then think about her spending time with that choreographer and then they end up getting pregnant. I don't know. It's there's something weird there. I'm sure it's fine. I'm not trying to allude to anything. It just makes me feel a little icky.
01:47:45
Speaker
Well, I mean, I get it. Yeah. I mean, it did I mean, look, we if you watch the movie and then you know that it's kind of hard not to think that like that. Yeah. I didn't know that at all. and that's pretty fucking crazy. Yeah. um And the other thing that I want to say about this movie, and I don't I don't know if Aronofsky is kind of just like this way in his movies, but like, do people live their lives this horny all the time?
01:48:07
Speaker
Well, I mean, speaking speaking from personal experience, yes. um But I mean, at work, Yeah. but At work. No, at work. that's what I mean mean, I am absolutely able to shut off my horniness at work. That is true.
01:48:20
Speaker
Like these people are, they're constantly talking about sex. They're constantly caressing. They're constantly like, it's like Jesus. Like that part where he like, they, they watch the dance. And then he says to the male dancer, would you want to fuck this girl? And I was like, you that's not real. Yeah.
01:48:40
Speaker
But i and maybe that's just an Aronofsky thing. Maybe he's just like a horny guy. I don't know. But there was just so much. I think I think Darren Aronofsky is a very intense storyteller. And like if you've if you've never seen like did you ever see what do you call it? um Oh, what's the really crazy movie? Fucking. um Oh, I can't think of it with the mom and Ellen Burstyn. Oh, yeah yeah, From the 90s.
01:49:04
Speaker
Not from the 90s. It's um ah oh Requiem for a Dream from 2000. Have you ever seen that? Yes. I mean, talk about fucking intense, right? Yeah. Or, I mean, i actually, I forgot that he directed The Whale. And have you seen Pi before from 98?
01:49:19
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Long, long, long, long time. I mean, I mean, like all like all of his movies are just so fucking intense. They're always like they're they're like at 100 for every character. I think that's just more. You mean like someone cutting their nails with actual scissors? You psychopath. I mean, that's it. It's just like it's like he there's no way that his films can ever just be like on a normal on a tepid level. It's just it's just not who he is.
01:49:43
Speaker
um the other part that i had in my notes is i was like oh my god jerry is sebastian stan yeah i remember him being in this movie god love him but yeah i i think that like overall like i i mean it'll be in my summary so i guess i just won't say it do you just want to score this let's do it i' be like here i'll go first i gave it a five and i so and i said i'll keep it really simple surprisingly just not nearly as wild as i thought it would be i and i truly i really enjoyed it i had a great time Yeah, I gave it a five as well. I said, listen, I'm not the hugest Aronofsky fan, but there is no doubting this is a superb movie, even though I still don't really know what happened. Maybe we're getting closer to it anyway. Well, look, folks, that does it for our second film of the episode. Take a little break right here. We'll be right back to close out the show.
01:50:45
Speaker
Touch, kick, and down. You got it? Going on and turn, turn right, left, chest step. Five, six, seven, eight. Well, folks, that does it for episode 154 of the 13th Horror Podcast. But before we go, as always, we have a little game for you that Andrew has cooked up. He is the game master. um He is the gay game master. He's the gamer master.
01:51:06
Speaker
i want I'm going to stop. Andrew, you have a game for us. It's called Slay or Stay on the Dance Floor. So tell us what we're going to do. Yes, I'm going to read you some terms and you're going to tell me whether they are a popular dance move or gay sling. Okay. Sounds good to me.
01:51:24
Speaker
All right. So your first one is a Pegasus release. Dance move. You're correct. It's a contemporary dance move. um A leap with crazy leg extension is basically what it kind of is. All right. How about a devil roll?
01:51:44
Speaker
Sounds like a dance move. It is. It's in break dancing. There's a double roll. Okay. All right. What about a spill spin?
01:51:55
Speaker
I'm going to say this is gay slang. It is. It's slang for when you gossip so hard, you spin like a bite like ah like a bay blade of secrets. Oh my God. It's ridiculous.
01:52:08
Speaker
All right. What about a baptism bounce?
01:52:14
Speaker
I it i want to say it's a dance move. It's slang. It's for when the beat hits so hard you bounce like a sinner getting saved at pride. oh my god, it's ridiculous. Jesus.
01:52:28
Speaker
Alright, what about a cat claw? That is gay slang. That is a dance move. It's actually in whacking, like voguing. It's like a dramatic clawing type of thing. Think like Fosse kind of. Interesting. Okay. Fosse, Fosse, Fosse. All right. What about... Sorry, I have like a big list here. I'm just trying to figure you out. What about a camp turn?
01:52:54
Speaker
That has got to be a dance move. That is slang. Oh, my God. i thought I was going to do good at this. nothing A turn so extra Susan Sontag would write essays about it. Oh, my God.
01:53:05
Speaker
um What about a
01:53:11
Speaker
i'll give you a I'll give you a... Maybe this is easy. A heel stretch. A heel stretch. That sounds like... I'm going to say it's slang. It's a dance move. Oh, God damn it. Jesus. In ballet. Well, that does it for slay or stay on the dance floor. Andrew, as always, another great game.
01:53:32
Speaker
Well, listen, listeners, thank you so much for being with us for episode 154. But before we let you go, as always, a little message for you. Look, we're in December. It's that holiday giving time. Perhaps you...
01:53:43
Speaker
Thank you. do boy do we have some news for you you can go straight to our website frygaythir dot com slash support where you can become a patron on patreon or you can even buy some merch both of those things help us out and look you don't have to do it for a lot you can do it for a little in fact If you've never heard this before, other people, you've heard it many times from us. There are different levels in our Patreon that you can do. We literally tell all of you to just do the dollar. Like that's, yeah that's what, that's actually what we want is just the dollar. Um, because there's enough of you guys that a dollar a month or 12 bucks a year really, really helps us out. It scales out in the right way for us. So if you're looking, you know, maybe this year to just kind of increase the things that you support, maybe we can be one of your causes. Why not? Um, and look,
01:54:36
Speaker
Creating a podcast and maintaining a podcast actually takes a little bit of money. You might not know this. There's software that we have to to pay monthly fees for. There's equipment that we you know sometimes have to buy.
01:54:48
Speaker
on On this particular podcast, we watch an ass load of movies and we often have to rent them because they're not available. um So all those things just kind of add up. And look, we love and we we love doing it, but if you can help us, it helps us break even.
01:55:02
Speaker
Well, and it's also our brains. And, um, yeah, listen, we're, we're not chat GPT yet, but you know, the, the day that we turn into that, uh, but no, speaking of, we have two new patrons via this episode, uh, stormy Ray and our good friend, John DeBoer. You better have at least 20 bucks a month. You better have been.
01:55:25
Speaker
No, I'm just joking. John, ah obviously storm stormy. Thank you so very much for being one of our supporters, um And John, thank you, my dear. Love you very much. Yeah. and And, you know, like like Maddie was saying, like, listen, we do this for essentially free. it It always takes up a portion of our weekend and a portion of our Sunday. And so if you can. If you can give a dollar, that actually means quite a bit to us it's because it means that you want to listen and listen. We just got our wrapped for the year and we know 2.7 thousand of you are listening. So yeah get on it.
01:56:01
Speaker
And that's only on Spotify, for God's sake. Yeah. But listen, folks, um as December rolls on and we know you're you're you're getting crazy, probably thinking about the holidays and this and that and.
01:56:12
Speaker
We hope that we are a of a calm voice for you while you're going through all of those things and traveling. Do know the podcast that we produce? I don't think. Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. um But listen, regardless of anything, what what Andrew and I want most for you during this holiday season is for each of you to go out there and to get slayed.