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Problem #16: Overcoming Doubt
152 Plays20 days ago
This week, Tracy and Kristian are joined by Tracy's spouse and the other half of Ede Sol Games, Boof Sizemore to talk about one of the most insidious problems you may encounter in doing creative work: doubt (and more specifically, Imposter Syndrome). We're not qualified to approach this therapeutically, so instead we share some very personal stories about our own experiences with this monster from a game design perspective. In seeing that other people are affected by it, and the strategies they employ to overcome it, we hope we can provide some comfort and inspiration to those who also run into these roadblocks. Special thanks: to our friend and professional life coach Carly Flagg for consultation and additional notes for this episode.
Join our discord!: https://discord.gg/Bc9dvuzZYJ
The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
Carly Flagg Life Coaching Website: https://handsatheart.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast Theme
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this rising tide.
00:00:19
Speaker
And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 16, overcoming doubt.
Guest Introduction: Boof Sizemore and Relationship Dynamics
00:00:45
Speaker
And joining us for this wonderful endeavor, we have the CFO of Eid Sol Games, sign language interpreter and mentor, professional stage manager and Han cluster play tester, Boof Sizemore.
00:01:03
Speaker
hello. Welcome. Welcome. Thank you. This is Boof, by my other half, I'd say. yes And um we've been together for many, many years.
00:01:14
Speaker
28 years this year. Wow. Married for 25. When's your anniversary? I need to know. Which the important one is June 14th, honey. Is that? June 14th. June 14th. Okay.
00:01:26
Speaker
The reason why we're so good together is because we don't care about dates.
00:01:32
Speaker
We intentionally got married in 2000, so we never had to think about it. Nice. So the actual wedding anniversary is in 2000. So very cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:42
Speaker
Still going strong. Yeah. And obviously, because, you know, she's here with us. And um thank you for joining us because youre you are our expert for this episode because we're all experts. That's right.
00:01:56
Speaker
Well, anything that I say that makes me sound smart is 100% Carly Flagg's responsibility. i Some of you might remember Carly Flagg from the Savage Interludes Enneagram episode, which was phenomenal. That was a great episode. Enneagrams have changed our lives, Tracy and mine.
00:02:14
Speaker
But she ah actually offered an imposter syndrome workshop for sign language interpreters a couple years ago, and it Well, it changed my life at the time. As I was looking through the notes today, I was like, oh, I should probably, i should brush up on some of this. So Carly made me sound smart. to Everything else that is not smart sounds like me.
00:02:39
Speaker
Yeah, but being smart is retaining it and comprehending it and being able to repeat it, right? Yes, absolutely. That's the important thing. Yeah. So...
Exploring Imposter Syndrome in Creative Spaces
00:02:49
Speaker
So we're here to talk about doubt, specifically imposter syndrome, because that's a very common manifestation of doubt, especially in the RPG design space, um but in a lot of a lot of creative spaces.
00:03:05
Speaker
And um we're here to sort of, we're not experts. That's one of the first things we need to tell you is, of course, none of us are mental health professionals. We're not here to do therapy for you, we're here We did want to cover this topic on a personal sort of level. Yes. Sharing our stories in in hopes that maybe something will click with you or you'll relate to something that we say.
00:03:32
Speaker
And then sharing some of our strategies for overcoming these episodes that happen as we are trying to be creative and do things. and And the prospect of sharing them out to the wider world becomes more and more daunting, right?
00:03:47
Speaker
So that's what this episode is about. So, Boof, because you are the last one to take an actual class on this, why don't you tell us what imposter syndrome is?
00:03:59
Speaker
ah It's... ah
00:04:02
Speaker
Basically, a collection of feelings of inadequacy that persist despite evidence. evidence So it's those thoughts of, I feel like I'm a fake.
00:04:14
Speaker
I'm not allowed to fail. Mistakes equal failure. My success is because of luck Yes, yes, I don't belong here. People just pretend to like me.
00:04:28
Speaker
That kind of thing. I'm fooling everyone. I'm fooling everyone. One day, they will all see. Yes, one day, i will be discovered for the fraud that I The fraud that am. Oh, God. That's like me at every con I go to see.
00:04:41
Speaker
I mean, isn't that us every day we go to work?
Responses and Symptoms of Imposter Syndrome
00:04:45
Speaker
Yes, it's true. That's me just every day being an adult and a parent. And yeah, it's like, am I doing this right? Are they going to be functional human beings? I have no idea.
00:04:54
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:59
Speaker
it's It's pervasive, at least for me. and the But the thing is, like just because it's there doesn't mean it's not able to be overcome every day.
00:05:10
Speaker
yes And and like I feel those feelings a lot. And ah I have felt them more in the past. Yeah. I still feel them now, but I'm the type of person, and there's a couple of different ways that I understand that you can respond to these kinds of doubts and this kind of imposter syndrome. One is to retreat into the familiar, right?
00:05:36
Speaker
So meaning that that people can go back into a space where they feel in charge or they feel competent or they feel like smarter than everybody else, right?
00:05:49
Speaker
That's one way to go. Another way to go is to overwork the hell out of yourself in order to overcome any inadequacies that you feel like you've got.
00:06:00
Speaker
Or to prove that you're worthy. Or to prove that you're worthy. Yes, exactly. I kill myself working for you, maybe you'll see that I'm worth having employed. Christian is nodding. like like He's like, yeah. Yeah, no, I've been there. I mean, yeah. um We'll get into it.
00:06:22
Speaker
But i am i'm definitely... ah The thing is, i'm i'm a little bit – I don't say I'm weird. I am the of the type that will publicly and outwardly respond in a very imposter syndrome-y way, which means if somebody gives me a compliment, I'll go, oh, no, I just got luckier. Oh, no, it was really nothing. It was really this other person that did all the work.
00:06:50
Speaker
Oh, no, it was this – was like – Well, Daryl came up with that idea for Huncluster. I was just going to say that. I was just going to say, well, Daryl Hayhurst, it's all him.
00:07:01
Speaker
Right. or Or this artist did such a great job and I didn't hardly do anything. I just gave him a couple of sentences, you know, nothing. Like it's, it's, I'll do that. I'll say those things.
00:07:13
Speaker
But there is a kernel underneath where I do believe in myself and Booth has a hard time believing this sometimes, that that that's there, that I do really like, okay, no, i'm I know what I'm doing. I'm competent. I'm smart, all this stuff.
00:07:31
Speaker
But I don't say it outwardly as much. And that allows me to keep trying things. Whereas people who are really ah feeling this badly are oftentimes they decide to go retreat and go say, I'm not even going to try because I'm not i'm not capable of doing this.
00:07:54
Speaker
Other people are better. Go ahead, Bupa. So ah following, reading off of Carly's wonderful notes, some of the symptoms of this is avoiding challenging tasks, procrastination, experiences of shame and guilt, perfectionism, paralysis after failure, high levels and of integrity, elevated of elevated levels of pro-social behavior,
00:08:22
Speaker
Fear of success. Oh, here's one. Reduced career planning. Ooh. Ooh.
00:08:32
Speaker
I have a sentence that I say regularly that is 100% that I don't ever need to take another test in my life. yeah Yeah, that's true. That's true. Booth has possibilities to advance her... Credentialing. Credentialing. Right. And licensure.
00:08:51
Speaker
And she usually doesn't take them because... That requires a test. And I don't want to accidentally fail that test and have everybody everybody wonder what I've been doing for 14 years. You'd be exposed as a fraud and would be all over.
00:09:09
Speaker
That's why I like going to professional conferences instead. Because then i then I hear people saying the same things I've been thinking. Yes. And then I'm like, oh, I am smart. you know And I don't have to take a test afterward. Yeah.
00:09:21
Speaker
Now, I have to say, every time I take a test, because sometimes it is required for my job, I pass it just fine. I am actually skilled at my job, but i yes I don't think I'm going to pass a test that I pay for and have to work to achieve something new. Right.
00:09:40
Speaker
Especially if it's defining whether or not you are in fact an expert in this thing. Right. Because then it's like, but there's the possibility I might not be. Right. What if I failed the basic test? Right. I will never take that test. But here's the secret. Most of those tests are designed to be like super easy to pass. You know, really like whenever I've, at least whenever I've taken, like, i think it was like a scrum master thing. i was like, oh, this is easy.
00:10:06
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, I've, oh God, I've had it's it's interesting when you were reading the um the symptoms, was it? Yeah, there's lots more. I just didn't want to have a 20-minute symptom section. No, no I would say about all but maybe one or two are literally symptoms of ADHD. and And um not symptoms, but maybe like effects of or comorbidities of ADHD because...
00:10:34
Speaker
you you know we have so many challenges We've had so many challenges in our lives and you know setbacks and people shaming us and telling us, you know you're lazy or you're not disciplined or whatever. yeah that Then that becomes just our state of how we perceive ourselves and how we perceive our performance. Shame is a big part. yeah mean Shaming and feeling it ah of our own regard, right? Right, right.
00:11:01
Speaker
And what's interesting too, and this ties into our topic, there's an element in which... in which we, there were things that that people with ADHD are are good at and this is like an individual thing, right?
00:11:20
Speaker
Really good at this one thing. And it comes so easy and you focus on doing that thing because you're really good at it. And anything that requires any amount of effort, because it doesn't come as easy as the other thing, we feel like, oh, I'm just not good at that.
00:11:35
Speaker
But really it's no more difficult for us than it is for anyone else. Mm-hmm. We just, you know, think, oh, this I actually have to work
Prevalence and Societal Influences of Imposter Syndrome
00:11:43
Speaker
for. I'm not good at that. i'm I'm good at this. I'll keep doing that.
00:11:47
Speaker
And that's where, you know, so I think for anyone pushing through that and then seeing yourself, you know, accomplishing can help, you know, overcome that feeling.
00:12:00
Speaker
So we'll get there. well We're going to get into all that. ah One of the parts that I did want to mention um is that the research ah that Carly provided said that 70 to 90 percent of the population has imposter syndrome.
00:12:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Which is so interesting because it's not really discussed that much or just recently started being discussed. Yeah. I wonder if it's something that.
00:12:26
Speaker
is um Is it something because of awareness or is it something because are lifestyle is such that it it it has fostered that feeling?
00:12:39
Speaker
You know what i mean? Like, we know, we have, you know, instead of a multifamily family homes, people are living in single family homes, right? There's more pressure on putting more hours at work. There's, you know, more pressure to do multiple jobs because of the economy and we need money, right? And all these kinds of things.
00:12:57
Speaker
And so do we have that feeling that, that especially the competition aspect, right? We are and a lot of ways, we're competing with other people, other professionals and and whatnot, regardless of what field it is.
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah. And so we're constantly comparing, right? Am I as skilled as that person who's my coworker, my friend, but am I, you know, I feel a sense of comparison, you know? Yeah.
00:13:19
Speaker
And so I'm curious, i'd be I'd love to see if there's any kind of study on the why that is, and and if it is in fact, you know, one of those two things.
The Role of Personal Satisfaction in Creative Work
00:13:28
Speaker
Yeah, that – I mean, one of the things that people say about creative work and comparing things is that it's it doesn't – it's not super, super helpful. No. Right?
00:13:42
Speaker
It's – when you say, well, if I compare my project – That was this successful with X project that was phenomenally successful.
00:13:55
Speaker
That means my project sucks. Right. And that's not true at all. And, and, It is really hard to get out of that mindset.
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah. Because there's so much wrapped up in worth equating to money or worth equating to some measure of success that's not that that doesn't have anything to do with your personal feelings or your journey or your expression of your art.
00:14:28
Speaker
Right? There are so many things that... that tell us we're successful and has nothing to do right with how good we feel about the stuff we've created. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
00:14:42
Speaker
And we've said on this show many, many times, right, that that that you have to do it for the love of it. Otherwise, ah it's very unlikely you're going to see any other measure of success.
00:14:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. no It's just the truth. I hate to say it, but it it kind of is you you have to get a little lucky to have any kind of financial success doing this.
00:15:07
Speaker
We really want the world to love it as much as we do. And when you give it to them, you can't control that. And it's so hard. no and And that's where I think we've talked about this before, about remembering why you did it, why you made certain design choices, why you wrote it the way you did.
00:15:26
Speaker
And it doesn't have to be for everybody and it won't be for everybody. But if it's for the right people who appreciate it and who find the value in it, you've succeeded.
00:15:37
Speaker
For me with Tracy and Han Cluster, because I am the talk her down person when she's what's the right word for you? Freaking out. Okay. I was going to say tail spinning, but okay. Getting into a horrible depression, standing at the edge of the cliff, all of the above. Yeah. So both of the, both of your recent statements, um,
00:16:05
Speaker
I have a very specific thing that I constantly bring back up to Tracy. And that is, I want her to have the best book that she can make on our bookshelves.
00:16:18
Speaker
And if that is the only one made... then that is the goal. Can I call you once a week for a pep talk? Absolutely. Because it doesn't, for me, as not the creator, but the support person, I want her to have her best thing.
00:16:36
Speaker
right And so we're lucky in that we don't have children. And so we can very easily put as much money as needs to go into this into, you know, however much it costs, I want her to have that book. And when she pulls it off that shelf, she's happy.
00:16:51
Speaker
right And if anybody else buys it, that's just butter. You know, I mean, it's just I'm happy because she gets the book that because she's written. an amazing book and the work that we're putting in for art is just, it's going to be spectacular. But if we only have one copy, I'm going to be so proud of that one copy.
00:17:12
Speaker
But for Tracy, that's so important to hear and be you're reminded of. yes Yeah. Cause there's always that. i mean, for all of us, there's that little voice that tells us like, this is going to bomb.
00:17:23
Speaker
Like, so I'm, I'm curious to how you overcome or how, What are the points during the creation process? Not even like the production with the art. Cause you know, the writing's pretty much done, but when you, when you started the writing, right. Or when you were like maybe halfway through it,
00:17:40
Speaker
e What are those feelings that you get where you're wondering, like, should I keep going or is this good or, you know, cause I have that, right? I I'm, there's times where I'm like, I will get into how we overcome these things. And you know, in the second half of this conversation, but constantly I'm like, am I really good at this? Am I, do I know what I'm talking? I have it with this podcast. I'm every time we record, I'm like, who am I to talk about this stuff? Right? like Well, Christian, I just want to say you have an excellent podcast voice. Thank you. You have to have a podcast.
00:18:13
Speaker
That's not all you have, Christian. That's why Tracy reeled me in. That's right. um Yeah, that that's I mean, you know it's it's it's such a long, it was such a long journey.
00:18:29
Speaker
It's 10 years. 10 years, yeah. I mean, that sounds so trite, right? But it was. And... That first few years where I'm just like, whatever, I'm i'm i'm making up stuff.
00:18:42
Speaker
i have no I have no intent of trying to write this in a final form. I'm making stuff up. I'm running it at cons. I'm running it for my friends. I'm trying things.
00:18:53
Speaker
That was the easy part. And it was just yeah it was just game notes. Yeah. At that point, it was just... Some of the characters are people that, non-player characters that they met... eight years ago yeah yeah wow yes it is so much fun at that point exactly it's super fun like i i assume you've been there christian well yeah there's there's a there's also a novelty factor with it right because you're you're just like you're excited it's all new oh yeah we're gonna see how this comes together right and i've i've certainly had that did you write with with with no have you written with no intention of publishing
00:19:28
Speaker
Yes. Well, let me let me get clarification on what you mean, because i I have also written professionally because I was but did public relations writing. you know ah took reporting classes. I've done technical writing and instructional writing.
00:19:41
Speaker
So is that, like, do you mean in terms of-
00:19:47
Speaker
rpg fiction or stories or setting like this the the creating something from nothing And saying, like, I am just doing this for the love of it. I have no intention of, I have no plans, maybe not no intention, but no plans of actually doing anything with this other than just creating In high school and college, I wrote a lot of poetry.
00:20:07
Speaker
and um And that was just, I don't even have them anymore. i'm I kind of regret that. But, you know, some of them were probably crap. Some of them were I thought were good. But it was just for me. It was just for the art of it. That is so liberating.
00:20:20
Speaker
Yeah. Right? I mean, do you do you look back on that and like miss it? I do. I do. And actually, even even just now as I thought of it, I'm like, I should write poetry again. yeah Right? I'm sitting here like, i would i should I should go back to creating music because I had no intention of putting it that out. yeah I was just doing it for fun. we We just watched The Gorge, which just came out on on Friday.
00:20:43
Speaker
And in in the main one of the main characters, he writes poetry and he just has it in his a little journal. and But it's it's just for him. you know and he just doesn't It's not with the intent to publish.
00:20:54
Speaker
He thinks it's crap, but you know it's actually really good. you know It doesn't matter. doesn't matter whether it's crap. And i was like, I should write poetry again. So for me and my imposter syndrome, I cannot...
00:21:09
Speaker
do something creative without thinking, what am I going to do with it? I do not have the ability to just be free. I used to do clay yeah and I filled our house with clay, clay work. And I and don't know what to do with it.
00:21:28
Speaker
And so I stopped because I couldn't get to the point where it was just joyful. There always need to give it to somebody to have to have value behind it. to either Here, I'm going to give this to you, or I've got to keep it because I created it and it has value. And it's cool, so I must keep it.
00:21:49
Speaker
i have to keep it, but I don't have any need for it. yeah right yeah it it To be able to throw that away, knowing that you've got more in you.
00:22:01
Speaker
That yeah is liberating. Right. So to that's that that's the early part. And then at some point, maybe i don't know, it was 2013 ish when I was starting to work on on cluster for fun.
00:22:15
Speaker
And it was not until I don't know.
00:22:21
Speaker
2017, somewhere in there when i actually started to ah write the book. And that was daunting as hell. Because now have to organize it. I'm sitting here going like, okay, I need now to write a book that people will be able to read, understand, and be able to play. Right.
00:22:42
Speaker
And I know I have to write X number of words, right? I know i have to write at least 96 pages probably, right? I don't know how much it's going to be, but I know it's going to be a lot of words because I'm going to have to get all these ideas out in a coherent way.
Overcoming Creative Challenges and Learning from Failures
00:22:58
Speaker
Yeah. And that, the only thing that kept me going was... boof Well, I mean, partially, but it was it really has to come from inside you.
00:23:10
Speaker
It does, yeah. And and and partially it was it was the belief in it, as i as I worked on it more and more, like, oh, this is this is pretty cool, this is okay.
00:23:20
Speaker
But it's more than that, it's it's the one day at a time. Yeah. One page at a time, one paragraph at a time, because if you look at it from the perspective, I'm going to have to write 60,000 words.
00:23:35
Speaker
it's Especially for somebody who hasn't done that before. right It's impossibly hard. You just go like, I can't write 60,000 words. What am I going to write?
00:23:47
Speaker
but But what happens is, if you do it, and we'll get into this, like Christian said, if you just try the thing, even if you don't believe you can do it, you just try it anyway.
00:23:58
Speaker
All of a sudden you've got 30 pages. You didn't think you could do 30 pages, but yet there they are. And they're pretty good. And it's barely the beginning. And it's barely the beginning. That's right. And you're just sitting there like, um well, I've got a whole lot more to do.
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah. and and and then and And if you think about how much more you've got to do, then it becomes crushing again. You've got you' got to get out of that. It's the bite the time thing, right? Yeah, right. yeah that's That's how I got through it.
00:24:29
Speaker
Besides having Booth there, besides having Daryl there on my shoulder, as he would say, the devil on my shoulder saying, Tracy, you... You can do this. you I want this book on my shelf. get we you know yeah he would do He would do subtle support things like, we don't need to play Star Wars because we have Hunkluster we can play.
00:24:48
Speaker
Nice. You know, he would say those things and that would be like, oh, he wants to play my setting. Yeah. Right. He likes it. So I should probably keep going with it. That's cool.
00:24:58
Speaker
For me, i remember when that light switch turned on because you were doing TORG, I think at the time you were doing two or three. i was doing trifling matter. I had some Delphi mission stuff going on. I didn't i hadn't really gotten but into Han cluster yet.
00:25:15
Speaker
And I remember one night we were in the kitchen and you looked at me and you're like, if I can do it for them, I can't do it. I do it for myself. And I was like, oh, that is poignant. Wow. Wow.
00:25:27
Speaker
I mean, I was like, oh, shit. I mean, I'm sorry. Can I swear? It's PG-13. So you're allowed one. We got the one. There it is. So, but was just like, I knew.
00:25:36
Speaker
yeah so ah but i was just like i knew It had changed. And I don't know how much Tracy has said about things that she has become passionate back be in the past. But when she decides to do something, she does it the best that she can, which in my opinion is often the best in the world. Nice.
00:26:02
Speaker
And it takes a while to get through to the point where she's satisfied with her expertise in it and moves on to something new.
00:26:13
Speaker
And in that moment, I knew that this was what we were going to be spending the next five to seven years on. And I was thrilled about it because, i mean, come on, she's Tracy, you know?
00:26:24
Speaker
I mean, i what ah what a trip to go on. But those conversations of Because I always give her a little, like, I'll just sit and listen to her for 40 minutes and I'll give her like a sentence of an idea.
00:26:38
Speaker
and it changes everything for her. And she doesn't even listen to my one sentence of an idea. But that is how I am the supporting person. But until imposter syndrome comes in and then it's a totally different e relationship when that happens. I was going to mention that. like Well, when we talked about brain trust, or we talked about having people and you came up as well, just people to just...
00:27:00
Speaker
bounce ideas off of and they they may not respond like you're you're that for Tracy Jen's that for me we're just talking out loud when we're stuck or we're doubting or whatever kind of helps us reflect and be like no this is actually this is good or oh that's what I can do to make this better you know tom Good talk. Good talk.
00:27:19
Speaker
Yeah, right. And that there's a tremendous amount of value to that. It is. Yeah. I i think it, yeah, so part of, I'll say, part of maybe getting over imposter syndrome is having the brain trust.
00:27:31
Speaker
It certainly helps. That plays a big part of it. Part of it is is having having support and people who will tell you and who don't mind telling you again and again when you need it.
00:27:42
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But also hanging out with other high functioning, like really good at what they're doing people who also feel that can make you understand it's not just you.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yeah. People you respect, right? I just want to say, according to the research that Carly Flagg gave to me, yeah community building, support groups and affinity groups, mentors and scaffolded support, reframing internal messages, open teaming dialogue, frequent skill-based feedback, and self-compassion practices are the interventions for imposter syndrome. and that's what you guys were just talking about. That's right. You're so smart.
00:28:23
Speaker
I had to be smart via Carly, but you too. No. We've learned through pain. Excuse me. What did you just say, Christian? I believe you said... Yes. I know, right? Thank you very much. I know, right? Yeah. yeah So, and I know I've had times when, ah you know, it's... Like, okay, so here's my thing.
00:28:46
Speaker
I know I'm a good technical writer. i can I can structure... ah sentence, a paragraph, a chapter, whatever, perfectly, right? Grammar's great, you know, it's it's understood and so on.
00:28:59
Speaker
My self-doubt comes in, is this exciting, right? Is this interesting? Or is it dry? and And that's what scares me. It's like, sometimes I look back, I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I feel like I understand what's happening here, but is it just about comprehension?
00:29:14
Speaker
Or what what's what's the quote from the style guide, Tracy? Do you remember it? we Make things interesting. Yeah. You can't fix boring. Yeah. You can't, you can, you can fix grammar all day, but you can't fix boring. Right. And so that's the thing that scares me personally.
00:29:30
Speaker
And so, you know, and yes, I've you know written adventures for me to run. But then it's like, oh, but I'm writing for somebody else to run it. you know Can I do this? Am I good at this? you know So um you know i i I don't know that I've – I did two small PDF products on Swag. People like that.
00:29:51
Speaker
you know they They felt like they got the flavor out of it, you know and that was good. And I'm really scared, though, for Explorer. well you know Is this going to come out the way I really want it to? and um But we'll see.
00:30:03
Speaker
Yeah. it And I think that i as we've, I think, as we've said before, as far as the interesting thing, it's, it's, it's hard because you're sitting there going, well, what's interesting, but what is interesting to anybody? You sit there and you go like, it's arbitrary and you go into this panic mode in this, like, but well, nothing's interesting anymore. Everything's been done, blah, blah, blah. But that's not, that's not the, that's not the way to look at it The way to look at it is like, what is interesting to you?
00:30:29
Speaker
And don't hang yourself on on what you think should happen or what you think other people want to happen. But rather, go ahead and go the crazy route.
00:30:41
Speaker
If there are two routes, if there's a fork in the road, and one choice is the easy everybody does it choice, and the other choice is this is my crazy idea choice, do the crazy idea.
00:30:53
Speaker
Yeah. It may not work. Yeah. But do it anyway. Because otherwise... you're You're never going to learn what works and it's more likely the interesting idea.
00:31:05
Speaker
And that's that's my advice as far as what's interesting and what's not, right? Yeah, and and and I think that speaks to what we've mentioned in the past about, you know, focusing on the process, right? Like it's the experience of, of creating, yes um, the product will come and the product will be what it is and it'll be received. However it's received.
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah. know what I mean? Well, but here's the other thing too, with that in mind, with, know, as far as what you can do about it is you can learn. right and you can iterate and yeah you you can let's say that version didn't do well okay let me bring it back and maybe i'll brush it up some and i'll release you know an update or i'll release a second edition or whatever it might be or maybe i'll just take the lessons learned from there and apply it to a new product altogether exactly you know yeah and i think that's one of the things about about dealing with imposter syndrome is try not to look at all these
00:32:03
Speaker
Failure isn't failure. Failure is a learning opportunity. Right. It's, it's, if it doesn't perform the way you want it to you will learn from it. It's, you don't look at it as a like, oh my gosh, I'm a failure. I was never good at this. I could never do this. What was I thinking? I'm just going to retreat back to what I know into my turtle shell and not do anything ever again.
00:32:25
Speaker
That's, it's, it's a common way to respond to things. Right. But if you can find a way to either retreat temporarily or go right out and say, oh, okay, what can I learn from this? And it's not necessarily what other people are teaching you. It's it's what you can learn from the experience. From the experience, yeah.
00:32:45
Speaker
I was going to mention that um you know in in web design, for example, when we have projects, especially a team project, we'll do a post-mortem, right?
Reflecting on Personal Strengths and Contributions
00:32:54
Speaker
Like after the project's done, we've handed it off or whatever it is.
00:32:57
Speaker
Uh, we'll, we'll have a meeting where we talk about what worked, what didn't work, what were the pain points? What can we learn? What can we improve on? You know, what do we want to repeat that succeeded? And I think with that, with, with, with a product that you're trying to put out, regardless of what the product is, there's some value to doing that process.
00:33:18
Speaker
And so, you know, when you get that first product out, it may do well, it may not, you may have had a great experience with it. You may not have. but you're learning something from it. And it's important to make it a point that you reflect on what you've learned from it.
00:33:32
Speaker
You can't just be like, oh well that sucked. And then, you know, not process that. Right. Right. or That was great. Great. Great. Yeah. Why was it great? wrong Yeah. what Why was it great? What made it great? You know?
00:33:46
Speaker
And, uh, and what do I need to take with me to the next project to make sure it's that great again? Mm-hmm. yeah So what else, Christian? What else can we do to fight these feelings of doubt and and this imposter syndrome?
00:34:01
Speaker
Well, for me, i i have to remember... that I am technically at the skill in in general, I'm good at.
00:34:13
Speaker
Like I'm a good writer. Right. And, um, I, I've been hired for jobs, you know, like when I worked at a PR agency, I was hired specifically because they saw samples of my writing. We're like, Hey, would you be interested in working for us?
00:34:27
Speaker
You know, we, we need that skill. and um And so I try to focus on that and look at my work and say, no, this is good. you know this is i I can do this. I have done this. This is a different context.
00:34:44
Speaker
um So you know you know think thinking about that. and And also for me is ah I've learned about user experience and I've worked dealing with user experience in web design.
00:34:56
Speaker
And I bring that skill with me too. because I'm thinking about the user experience of the GM or the player interacting with this book and trying to play a game with this book. And so there's an amount of empathy that goes with that. You know, like what is what is the GM dealing with that I can get some stuff out of the way so that they can just focus on this easily, right?
00:35:19
Speaker
Or the player, like one of the things I did is I moved setting rules to the beginning of the book because when I'm running a game or I'm playing a game, I'm always thinking, what are the setting rules again? Like, what are what are the things that I need to keep in mind? And they're buried somewhere in the middle of the book usually.
00:35:34
Speaker
But I'm like, well, why don't just put at the beginning of the book and then it's easy to find. And before I even get into character creation, I can see the setting rules that govern my character.
00:35:45
Speaker
So it helps me make informed decisions. you know So those are the things I reflect on and I think, that was a really smart idea. I'm good at this. um So that that's that's what I try to go to.
00:35:58
Speaker
you're sort of cataloging your strengths. Cataloging the strengths, right, exactly. It's it's you know um recognizing the value that I'm bringing to this type of a product rather than just regurgitating something that somebody else did.
00:36:14
Speaker
What's my voice? What's my contribution to the hobby and you know to this product in particular? I think that's a good strategy in terms of Getting past that hump is is like, well, I've got a breadth of life experience from different disciplines. And me particularly, I have a wider breadth than most because of the what Booth was describing, my way of approaching things where I'll do things for a while, get pretty good at them, and then I'll move on to something else that I get pretty good at.
00:36:45
Speaker
And I move on to something else that I get pretty good at. All of a sudden, I've got skills for you know for for layout. i've got skills for um ah Photoshop. I've got, because I've taken the time in my past to do all these things. Yeah.
00:37:03
Speaker
Not like pro level. Like I could work at a graphic design studio, but enough that I can put together a book and put together my own art for marketing. Or what I mean? Or enough that even if you don't know how to put together the book, you know how to think about how that book is going to come together. So that when you are talking to the person who's going to put together the layout or whatever,
00:37:26
Speaker
you have an understanding or if you need to make an adjustment, it is easier you can do that. Right. Exactly. Right. And I'm a theater person. I've got a breadth of story knowledge under my belt. I've got lighting knowledge under my belt. I know character more than a lot of people do. Like these are all strengths of mine. And I i lean into those strengths when I'm when i'm doing the creative work.
00:37:50
Speaker
And also I lean into my technical strengths because I'm also a lighting designer. I'm an analytical thinker. I can do these things. i have these I have this weird combination that a lot of people don't have, this Art with melded with technical stuff that makes an RPG designer so formidable.
00:38:10
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Like we can do it. We can do both sides of it. Right. I'm terrible at marketing. That I'll never be good at. Right. I'll never be good. It's so stressful to me, but I can do the other stuff.
00:38:21
Speaker
yeah And so I'm leaning into my strengths. And when I do that, I can feel competent. I can feel like worth worthy of being able to do this and to remind myself of that or to have people around me that remind me of that, that helps me overcome these feelings of doubt.
00:38:38
Speaker
Yeah. What are your thoughts? boof
00:38:42
Speaker
So I and mean, maybe this isn't. what we're talking about anymore, but I, we, you know, professional stage manager is part of my, I had the opportunity to talk with a well known movie director.
00:38:58
Speaker
And i asked him several times um why, like why he makes the movies that he makes. And his response was that he does what turns him on.
00:39:12
Speaker
a And that is the most important thing. And that's what you guys were just describing, right? Even if it's a technical thing, or you're leaning into your skills, it's like what works for you. And I think that Tracy oftentimes,
00:39:25
Speaker
when she's feeling imposter syndrome has gone out of herself and is worried about the readers of the book, the players and the GM. yeah And that for me is it takes me a minute to figure out what's happening.
00:39:45
Speaker
And then it's, it's, hard to pull back into, pull her back into herself. And I like to just say, it doesn't matter what the GMs think. It doesn't matter what the players think. If they, if it's not for them, it's not for them. Like I, that's what my mantra is, but really it's what do you believe is the best in this moment?
00:40:08
Speaker
And, and that normally gets her back into the groove and is able to continue moving along. And I think that's also the hardest thing for the individual in the nosedive of imposter syndrome to do for themselves.
00:40:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it is hard because, you know, yeah it's a downward spiral in some ways because you start off with like, Oh, you need question.
00:40:38
Speaker
Right. And then you're like, well, I'm not like so-and-so. So who am I to even tell myself that I'm good at this? And like, no, I'm really bad at this. I should give up. And then, so you got to be careful there because it can just keep going and going and going.
00:40:51
Speaker
You have to stop yourself. You have to catch, you're sliding down that cliff wall. You need to find something to grab onto that branch, that root that's sticking out. Yeah. To, you know, to make sure you don't hit the bottom because, because it's easy to do.
00:41:04
Speaker
And, um and yeah, you might have to climb your way back up a little bit, but you know, it's, it's when you get to the top and you overcome that and then, you know, you, you, you look back and you're like, yeah, I actually am doing okay on this, you know, or when somebody gives you a like a comment on something that is for them, their skill, right.
Marketing Fears and Embracing Outcomes
00:41:28
Speaker
And they're just like, oh, just do this. Or, oh, don't, no, don't do that. And well, how? yeah It's a marketing set. You said something about marketing. I'm going to flip out. And for me, it's like, okay, do we need to hire a marketing person?
00:41:44
Speaker
And that typically, because Tracy is a um money fear person, um As soon as I say, I will spend however much money it takes to pay somebody to do marketing. She's, Oh, well now hold on a second. now Let's just hold on now. Maybe I can't do this.
00:42:02
Speaker
That triggers imposter syndrome. Yeah. Right. Not because I can't do the marketing like that. I can admit and be fine with. Right. Is my product worth that money to spend on marketing? Right.
00:42:14
Speaker
Then I go, then i go move down and start a different spiral. Right. Now I'm going down the spiral again. I'm like, wait, should we really spend this money on this product? Is it really worth it? Did I do a good enough job?
00:42:28
Speaker
You know, like, is it worth that money? are Are you thinking r ROI or are you thinking just the general value of the thing? Both. Yeah. Okay. Fair. Yeah.
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah. So that, that, that crosses my mind. Right. And, uh, and then I bring her back to that beautiful book that will be on our bookshelf.
00:42:51
Speaker
And then yeah it gets better. Because for me, that's really the goal. Yeah. Is one book. The one thing, well, two in this case. But the one thing that um that really brings me back, and I've told Christian this many times, the one thing that really helps me to remind me of what I'm doing and why I'm doing it is to, if I've spent, especially if I've spent a lot of time on my own working on whatever, working on various, the millions of things you have to do to get a book into production, um, is to play it.
00:43:28
Speaker
Yeah. With other people to either run it for other people and let them enjoy it Like do an online game session and just run something with them or with your home group or whatever. Or in this case, right now, getting me through this marketing push is watching the Adventures in Lollygagging crew run on cluster.
00:43:50
Speaker
Which could not have come at a better time for Tracy's mental health. Right. And seeing seeing them do it, seeing them engage with it, seeing the audience engage with them. I'm like, oh.
00:44:04
Speaker
okay, maybe I do have something here. Yeah. Like maybe, I mean, imposition is still there. it's still like, oh, yeah know, this is just like every other thing. It's just a fun thing. It's a, it's a well-executed fun thing, but it's not anything that not any number of other people could have done.
00:44:19
Speaker
I still have that going through my head. But there are moments where I'm just like, oh, no this is this is what I was hoping for. They're they're enjoying it. They're playing.
00:44:30
Speaker
right People who are watching are enjoying it. Just stop there. Don't go any further than that. Yeah. And all of a sudden you've got life and ambition again.
00:44:40
Speaker
Yes. And and you I'm assuming that when you've run these games, you know, Han Cluster sessions for friends, ah for cons, you've had all these like little moments, I'm guessing, of like, you know, like you're refueled, recharged. Oh, yeah more More than just little moments. Yeah.
00:44:58
Speaker
Yeah. So i think I think you're spot on about that. um So Clint and Jody, Clint Black and Jody Black, they they started a Patreon, Faye in L.A., is the setting that they're working on. The Patreon's called The Black Edition.
00:45:11
Speaker
ah And they got inspired because of our show, so thank you for telling us that. that's That warmed our hearts so much. So awesome. Yeah. And so they started the Patreon, and one of the things they're going to be doing is at at Mythic West, they're running Fae and L.A. sessions.
00:45:27
Speaker
like I think they're running like six sessions, same adventure, just so that they can finally get it in front of people. That's not just the two of them. Yeah. You know, and I think that's awesome. It'll also breathe life into them. It will.
00:45:39
Speaker
It'll be like, oh, this works. People were having fun. I should keep doing this. yeah You know, that that um more than anything for me keeps me going. Nice.
00:45:50
Speaker
And if I spend too much time on my own. And just working on the slogging through the book and just being head down in the pages. All of a sudden, all those horrible thoughts will come in.
00:46:02
Speaker
Yeah. And I know then that I need to get out of it and go and find other people to engage with me on this somehow. And I think the other thing we need is not just support, but also people who are smarter than us, right? People who who know, who've done this already, right?
00:46:21
Speaker
Who can reflect on our work and say, oh, here's what I would recommend. Or, oh, you know, that's really good. You should do more of that. You know, whatever it might be. Or people that you can just go to and ask for help, ask questions.
00:46:34
Speaker
Hey, I'm stuck on this. What do you suggest? I'm thinking either this or this. I don't know which way to go. And, you know, a simple conversation, they'll give some small little bit of advice and you'd be like, oh my God, like the floodgates are open now, you know? Yeah. And that's part of that thing. Like I said, if you can manage to find a way to get past your block of fear yeah and try it anyway, ask anyway, you know, like if there's somebody you respect who you feel like is not going to just, you know, ah beat you down with their opinion, ask them.
00:47:09
Speaker
See what they say. if If they don't have anything useful, then they don't have anything useful. Yeah. But they they may blow your mind with something that they don't even intend to blow your mind Right. And all of a sudden you're just like, oh, I know what to do now.
00:47:23
Speaker
I have the answer. Right. And then you're rejuvenated. You're ready to go. You're you're doing stuff again. Try. Because if you don't try, you're never going to get it done. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to come overcome that. But that's something that I have overcome. That I do. I try anyway.
00:47:41
Speaker
No matter how I feel about myself, I just keep doing it anyway. Yeah. Whether it's good for me or not. Sometimes sometimes that's that's a way to overcome too. Just keep moving.
00:47:52
Speaker
Like, yeah, you might be having those doubts. Just keep going anyway. Just keep swimming. yeah Just keep swimming. Just tread that water, you know. Yeah. Anything else? Boof?
00:48:04
Speaker
ah What do we say when you refuse to accept compliments? We say, I know, right? That's right. It's very important because eventually it gets into your brain and you do know. I really like cluster. That's a really cool game. And I'll be like, I know, right?
00:48:21
Speaker
Yeah. It's extreme. I love that. This is, this is a, this is, it's a, I think it's a therapeutic term. There's what is it? Radical, radical acceptance. Radical acceptance. Yeah.
00:48:31
Speaker
Is the fact that is part of, part of that is to say, I'm going to accept this radically because, it will it will free me of some of my anxiety about it.
00:48:44
Speaker
yeah Like my cat poops in the bathtub. I'm going to radically accept that. That's it's just going to be the way it is. Yeah, there's nothing you can do about it. To be fair, that's actually how we need to think about when we put this thing out there.
00:48:57
Speaker
We can't control how people are going to receive it. We can influence, but we can't control, we can influence to the best of our ability. We just have to radically accept whatever happens, happens. Whatever happens is going to happen. Tracy, we are going to poop in the bathtub of the Han Kessel bookmaking and see what our parents do for us.
00:49:19
Speaker
Because we're going to poop in it, in that bathtub, no matter what. Oh, yeah.
00:49:26
Speaker
that's not the way So the lesson here is poop in the bathtub, people. Yes. Just no. No, don please don't. It's gross. Don't do that. It's gross. It is gross. no But like those are the kinds of things because you could fight against it.
00:49:38
Speaker
you can You can yell at your kitty. You can do whatever you want to try to do. They're still going poop the bathtub. You can know he's about to do it. Pick him up and take him to the cat box.
00:49:49
Speaker
He's still going to go poop in the tub. still going to If he doesn't do it, then he'll do it a week from now. Yeah. ye Yeah. So, yeah. So to to Tracy's point, um, Yeah, just really just goes on to just go with it, you know, go.
00:50:05
Speaker
Yeah, you might feel like you're sucking, but just keep going. And just, you know, if somebody tells you it's good what you're doing, accept it. Don't fight it. Don't deny it. I know, right? Yeah.
00:50:18
Speaker
You know, it's don't say, oh, they're just being nice. You know, don't don't do Tracy where she's like, oh, I only did blah, blah, blah. didn't do much. I've only sang at Carnegie Hall. Whatever. It's not a big deal or anything. I've got a whole raft of of qualifications about that.
00:50:34
Speaker
Waiting in the wings. But I know, right? I know, right? I did sing at Carnegie Hall. That's it. one of the things that i have heard both of you say and that i actually have a memory of being on stage sign language interpreting for a famous person that i love and adore and it being a magical moment of me being connected with that person, the audience, and just being
Conclusion and Community Engagement
00:50:58
Speaker
there. Yeah. And feeling the love and acceptance of whatever I, what I was doing. And the two of you have both mentioned the same thing where you've heard you felt that.
00:51:09
Speaker
And if there's a way to bring that back in your imposter syndrome moment, just to think of that gorgeous feeling. Yeah. That, yeah. If you can get there. The validation.
00:51:20
Speaker
Right? The self-validation. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Well, I feel good. but ah Good session. You're welcome. Experted. There you go. That's right.
00:51:34
Speaker
Well, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server.
00:51:50
Speaker
Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few along the way.