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Problem #20: Changing World States
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This week, Tracy and Kristian are joined by Darrell Hayhurst, creative director at Pinnacle Entertainment, to talk about a fascinating problem in RPG design. How much can you change your world-state during the course of your adventures or campaign? Can it evolve? Or should it remain static. The answer, as always, is, "it depends." There are advantages and disadvantages of each, and it's not an either-or choice. It's a continuum. Regardless, It's a problem that's worth contemplating both from the designer's perspective and the player's.
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Transcript
Introduction to RPG Development and Changing World States
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this weird alternate reality.
00:00:19
Speaker
And this week we're going to talk about problem number 20, changing world states.
Interview with Daryl Hayhurst on Changing World States
00:00:42
Speaker
Guiding us through this meta multiverse of changing realities is the wonderful Daryl Hayhurst. You love him, you know him. We've had him here before, and he's back again.
00:00:55
Speaker
He's creative director at Pinnacle Entertainment, and he's going to kind of help us talk through this topic. Yeah, i think guiding was a strong word there, more Walking face first into a wall just like everybody else. yeah We are experts. We're all experts. Welcome, Daryl. It's great to have you again. Thank you. Thanks for having me again. You're welcome. You'll figure it out one of these days and never let me back.
Balancing Static and Evolving World Settings
00:01:22
Speaker
So this is one of those, this is one of those like, um, continuums kind of thing, like, uh, uh, that a lot of designers think about, but don't actually actively think about.
00:01:35
Speaker
Right. And it's how much are you allowed to, or willing to, or want to, do you want to change your world?
00:01:47
Speaker
um as a designer. So as a GM, this is a little different. But as a designer, when you're creating books and creating plot point campaigns or campaigns of any kind and and and trying to craft some sort of story in which PCs can interact, um you have to kind of make a decision about how much you're willing to change the world.
00:02:12
Speaker
And there are different schools of thought on this. And I think we have some of those represented here among the three of us. So... We'll start there. And that's what that's what we're here to talk about. And I think it's a fascinating discussion. I definitely have my my thoughts on it. This is the greatest problem to have as a you know published author or whatever, because you know inherent in the problem is you have more than one book.
00:02:40
Speaker
So if you have this problem, things went ridiculously well. That's true. It's like, oh, have more than one book. Cool. don't have to worry about it. You have to have had success for this problem
Challenges of Evolving Settings Across Editions
00:02:52
Speaker
to present itself. I don't agree because I have this problem with Hancluster because I established the setting, right? And then I do a big plot point campaign that at the end of which there could be a number of large changes in the setting.
00:03:10
Speaker
Yes. And same with 50 fathoms. The problem comes in though, when you're going to do the next product after. And if you're doing the next product after, yes that means the first was successful. Yes. Right. Otherwise you're not really worrying about it. That's true. Yeah. Well, and if you're Tracy, you're thinking about that, you know, as you start, right? Because you want to be able to build that foundation to go there. Yes.
00:03:30
Speaker
eventually. Yes. But like you say, if you ever have to face it it's like, cool. Right. Right. If I have to, if i if I, if I'm successful enough to make the next book and I have to figure out which world states are possible to start, yeah then I've, then I've been successful.
00:03:44
Speaker
Right. Good problem have. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So what are, what are, let's go ahead, Christian, and tell us, tell us what your general thoughts are on this topic.
00:03:57
Speaker
So ill I'll be fair in saying that like i see both sides of this coin. i'm go I'm going to present my GM side first. And where where my prece so my my personal opinion as a GM is I do not like settings to advance.
Static Settings: Christian's GM Preferences
00:04:13
Speaker
i don't like meta plots to advance. I don't like um you know worlds to evolve, so to speak, um unless I'm the one who's evolving it as the GM.
00:04:23
Speaker
And um where that came from is my first love as settings go was Greyhawk. But I got into Greyhawk in like 2000s, right? With third edition. And going back through decades worth of material was daunting because there were so many changes across editions, not just in the lore, but even the interpretation of things based on the mechanics that informed the lore. Right.
00:04:47
Speaker
Right. Or because certain adventures had certain results and then that modified, you know, the situation, the scenario or the or the situation, the the factions, the people, the NPCs of the world and so on. Right. um So when when Eberron was announced and one of the features that they were selling about it was that they were never going to advance the timeline.
00:05:10
Speaker
Right. So, because Eberron was going to be your setting, right? You do with it as you want. And I was so excited about that because of my experiences with Crayhawk. At one point when fourth edit edition was announced and back when Watsi had forums, they were, they were proposing, they're kind of putting feelers out among the fans.
Eberron's Timeline Controversy
00:05:33
Speaker
How would you feel if we advanced the timeline two years? And of course there were a lot of people that were like, yeah, that'd be great. I love menopause. You know, I want to see the setting advance. I want to see where things go. And then other people were like, hold on.
00:05:44
Speaker
i got into the setting because you were not going to touch it. You're going to leave it as is. And i could do with it what I want to do. um And then they, they, They pulled back and they were like, yeah, we're just going to leave it.
00:05:55
Speaker
You know, however, what has happened still over time is because additions change rules. They change what are the core races they change, you know, all these things and they have to incorporate those elements into the setting.
00:06:09
Speaker
And some of those decisions I, you know, I didn't really care for them. Like I don't need a larger in my Ebron. You know, I don't, I don't need dragonborn. I don't need tieflings necessarily, but they were there, you know, that's fine.
00:06:21
Speaker
Um, That said, even with Eberron as a fan, I found myself thinking, well, why do I need to buy the fifth edition book? I already have all these third edition books. I have enough lore.
00:06:35
Speaker
I don't need the fifth edition version. um i still buy them anyway because you know I want to support it. I like seeing the different takes on things. so Sometimes I'll combine things. So as a GM, not a big fan.
00:06:48
Speaker
However, and I can appreciate as a creator and as a publisher wanting to do more with my setting and growing it and evolving it, but also not being in a situation where someone's going to go I don't need to buy the
Role of Savage Worlds in Evolving Settings
00:07:03
Speaker
fifth edition book. i already have the third edition book, right?
00:07:06
Speaker
I don't need to repeat the lore or just have a different presentation of the same thing i already know. Um, and specifically with Savage Worlds, you have plot point campaigns, plot point campaigns shaped the world.
00:07:21
Speaker
And if you want to sell more products over time, like look at deadlines, how many plot point campaigns have there been that have evolved the world based on the outcomes of those plot point campaigns, which I think is, is valuable, you know? And the the biggest thing about them is they tell a story. Yes. Right. Right. right That's what we latch onto is telling a story.
00:07:41
Speaker
And if you can't evolve the story, there isn't a story. There isn't a story. Yeah. But at the same time, it's like there is a story. It's our story, meaning the players and the GMs. Right. Right. So but but again, you're selling a product.
00:07:54
Speaker
You're selling a story. There has to be something to sell. Right. so But other other media gets caught up in this loop constantly, right? ah Old TV shows, right? They've got a format and an episode is it's self-contained universe and the format does not change.
00:08:13
Speaker
You just do episode, episode, episode, episode. And part of your structure is by the end of the episode, you have to reset back to default. Yeah.
00:08:23
Speaker
You found the killer. You've done the thing. You've solved the problem. Yeah. Yeah. Or if someone, if someone changed, they change back by the time it's done. And people get frustrated against that, especially in a role-playing game where you're like, well, anything that I do, I've got to return to default by
RPG Settings vs. Episodic TV Shows
00:08:42
Speaker
the end. Right. Or else I'm now off base enough to where I've got to make these adjustments over and over and over again. Right.
00:08:50
Speaker
And you see different ways of handling that, right? Comic books are the classic, right? Where they would be like, oh, we're going to evolve and then eventually crash back down. right and And the original idea was literally that every year to two years, you should be just having new readers, right?
00:09:15
Speaker
yeah Like anyone that's frustrated that these are the same stories being told over and over and over again, it's time to move on because this is geared to new readers. And I think it's absolutely valid. And I think it's a valid way to design a setting.
00:09:33
Speaker
But I also think your long-term fans get sick of it. They need that next evolution, they need to move on and you can either move on with them or you can say goodbye and hope that you're getting new players in over and over and over again. i think right like that's where that struggle comes. That's kind of interesting. Yeah. It's super, I think it's super interesting because it's, it's, as you say, Christian, as a GM, you don't want the setting to change. Right. But at a certain point, you're going to be so far off the grid that you're making stuff up
00:10:08
Speaker
And there's nothing to help you. Right. Right. You have no resources. You have no resources at your disposal anymore. You're now you're just like, I'm I'm the designer now. And a lot of these a lot of people who are buying these books and want to want want to.
00:10:23
Speaker
one of ah have a, have a campaign to play and, and not have to prep crazy, um, you know, high amounts for they want that. What, what Daryl calls the work done for them, right?
00:10:37
Speaker
They want, they want things set for them so that they can, so they can easily run this without having design everything themselves. And i I think that's part of it.
00:10:47
Speaker
I think that depends on on the individual, right. And where they're at, even in their life, their context. Yeah. Right. Cause in some place, if you're a 20 something year old and you got free time, you know, you're going to have at it, right. going whatever you want. You're going to world build. You're going to do all these things.
00:11:01
Speaker
ah If you're a family man working full time. Yeah. Give me the plot point campaign and tell me what I'm running tonight. You know, what's what plot point I'm running. Absolutely. I think the other like attractive thing is a game designer for, for when you talk about evolving you if you even if you do like evolve the story, if people want the original, it's still there.
Evolving Hancluster While Engaging Players
00:11:28
Speaker
Like it's not gone. Like you can still run first and, you know, first run ever on. yeah like It's like, it didn't change. It's exactly what you wanted. Right. You know, But you know the question then becomes, how do you put out product after product after product? Can you go broader, Leo?
00:11:46
Speaker
And once you go broad enough, is it the thing anymore? Or has it become such a ah jigsaw puzzle that it doesn't even feel like you know A cohesive thing. Yeah, a cohesive whole anymore. and yeah those are absolutely design considerations. Yeah, they are valid. And and you know in in the evolution of Hancluster, I was questioning myself about, and questioning Daryl, I would constantly bug people about this. I'm like, is it okay if I just break it?
00:12:21
Speaker
yeah Like if i if I just completely blow it up by the end of the game, like, you know, the world conditions are different now. Is it okay that the end of the campaign...
00:12:33
Speaker
just changes everything and I finally decided like look it has to be because this is the story I want to tell yeah and it's not I don't think this has to do with i don't I don't want like I would get annoyed if somebody told me well and just write a book Tracy because that's not what this is this is this is giving the players an interactive experience where they get to they get to drive this but there's an eventual like sort of trajectory that we're on that we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna we're telling a story and it's gonna be but it's not the same end point for any of everyone right that's why it's not a novel right that's true like there could be there could be bad stuff that happens along the way or great stuff that happens along the way and and and or a great ending or a bad ending all that is possible that's there
00:13:24
Speaker
But i was I was really struggling because that that your very argument, Christian, of the GM doesn't want to have the world change on it, is what really made me question
Campaign Endings Based on Player Choices
00:13:37
Speaker
it.
00:13:37
Speaker
But I finally decided, look, I'm doing it. yeah I'm just doing it. just do yeah yeah And I think that's fine. If I blow up the world and change it, then I'll figure out what happens next.
00:13:50
Speaker
And don't worry about it so much. I mean, I think that's my, I would prefer to have a great story told. Yeah. Especially when I don't know if I'm going to be doing something else. Right. Yeah. It depends too on what the nature of the product is. Like, so for example, everyone was very sandbox like in terms of there's, there's whole areas of the setting that are very much like you do with this, what you want.
00:14:12
Speaker
Right. And then what they did with the supplements, you know, was that, um, let's explore these different parts of the world further. Let's go deeper and broader. yeah Right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:24
Speaker
um So, you know, like a question I would have for you, Tracy, is for example, you know, we I think we you and I had a conversation about like, are you going to do guidebooks for different planets or or whatever? um So if at the end of the plot point campaign, things change so, so much.
00:14:40
Speaker
where At what point in the story does that version of that supplement take place? Is it at the beginning of the plot point? Is it later after the end of it? is it And so like that's kind of what I wonder you know for a GM, what should I expect in terms of support material? Well, this is I mean, look at Deadlands.
00:14:59
Speaker
yeah right Deadlands has plot points that build off other plot points. That's the way they do things. That's the way I would do things. And if I was making an expansion like to say, okay, let's let's deep dive into Calipo or let's deep dive into into Onyx or whatever, I wouldn't really necessarily do it as a as ah as a world book.
00:15:22
Speaker
I would do it as another campaign. Yeah. Something that affects that yes that area and progresses Yes, I would set it on that world and then I'd give you extra stuff for that world, but I'd set an adventure on that world that then either continued or figured out world states, possible world states are the big ones.
00:15:41
Speaker
Right. And then sort of worked it out, right? I have to assume that the PCs are going to succeed. Right. to a certain degree. Maybe I can work in if the PCs partially fail or fail altogether. Maybe, but that's not the only if it actually changes something, right? Just depending on the tale that you're telling. It depends. It depends. why not and or some other adventuring group did that thing yeah and you're picking up from there. right yes Right. That's a method of handling it by the way, but it's also one of the least satisfying.
00:16:12
Speaker
Yeah. is the Oh yeah, you failed, but it happened anyway. Yes. I'm just thinking you didn't even even play that adventure. That adventure just happened though. It's not that your group went through it and failed. It's just, you just never ran it even. I think it would be fun because the way the Han cluster ends, it could end very badly. It could end fantastically. Right.
00:16:36
Speaker
I think it would be fun to do ah plot point for each character. eventuality to say and and and so and start saying okay this is dark on cluster this is this is like this is the darkest timeline the empty on cluster or whatever you know something catchier than that obviously but something that says okay now the worst has happened And we started here, but the worst has happened. Now you play this.
00:17:05
Speaker
And then another one that says, this is the happy ending. This is what happened at the end of of the first Tom Cluster book. And now we're continuing off of there. I think that would be fun. Right. That's again, you have to rely on a lot of success. It is vastly entertaining, but it also so much effort for usually little return.
00:17:23
Speaker
don't know if either of you guys played the original Wing Commander game, but its a original campaign was beautiful because you'd play your
Replayability in Wing Commander Game Structure
00:17:32
Speaker
missions. It's it just a fighter sim, right?
00:17:34
Speaker
But a story is unfolding as you play these missions, and unlike every other fighter sim ever made, you could fail the mission and continue on. Mm-hmm.
00:17:45
Speaker
But as video gamers, people would win the mission and you only saw like a fraction of this giant diamond shape, you know, flow chart campaign along the winning branch.
00:17:58
Speaker
But if you like lost a bunch and then won some and then like crossed over or whatever, all these crazy different variations. And honestly, the story was cooler if you lost like every freaking along the way, but you'd never know it because no one played that way.
00:18:13
Speaker
Yeah. And that gives some replayability to it too, right? it It does. And the reason they never did it again was exactly that. People did the winning track and weren't exploring the losing track. So it's like, well, why why build our kin off the loop a track that no one played? And also we spent all of this effort on these missions that nobody saw.
00:18:35
Speaker
yeah so For me, though, it would be more like, here's like here's the main continuation, and now I'm doing a side one-off of Darkon Cluster.
00:18:47
Speaker
Exactly. That's it. It would just be like a branch, and then let's assume lost Darkon. you lost Let's just assume that. And now let's play ah let's play a little campaign here. i won't call that.
00:19:00
Speaker
we're kind We're not going to go on continuing branches from now on, but I think it would be kind of fun to have a mini campaign of what happens when you lose. Even Deadlands does that, right? Half the books assume you beat the Reckoners. The other half are like, oh and by the way, like this, in this timeline, the Reckoners won and screwed everything up.
00:19:21
Speaker
It's whatever we needed for the particular story that we're telling, you know I think that's cool, but I do understand also the the later buy-in gets intimidating, right? Yes. When you're looking at like, well, there's a whole raft of Deadlands lore out there. Do I need to know everything? Right.
00:19:40
Speaker
And of course, we have the job of saying, no, you don't need to know everything. Go get Weird West. You're good to go. Right. Yeah. So yeah. And truth be told, I i picked up, uh, before weird West came out, I picked up the six gun as my weird West alternative because that was contained.
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah. Like a I read the comic books and so on, but you can do, it was your version of the six gun. Yeah. Right. You could even by nature, the story is you could rewrite history, right? Like, you know, um,
00:20:12
Speaker
But when Weird West came out and the idea was, okay, let's set a new baseline for you know new audiences. i was like, thank you. Like, that's what I needed. Cause it was so intimidating. I know a lot of people yeah felt that way.
00:20:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. yeah It is. And that's one of the main like drawbacks when you do evolve is people assume you need to know what happened every step along the And it's like, well, no,
00:20:39
Speaker
It's like, you need to know what it is right now. And everything else is a fun Easter egg. Yep. Right. Yeah. Like Deadlands in 1884. It's this. Now, if you happen to have a book set in 1879, you know, like, oh, I can work this in if I want to or ignore it or whatever. Yeah.
00:20:56
Speaker
But you don't have to. And there's a richness to it. you know Yeah, but but we've all had that experience where you start a con game and the poor GM like starts in on his 30 minute lore dump and you're like, why?
Maintaining Immersion with Lore without Overwhelming
00:21:11
Speaker
know don no one cares, right?
00:21:14
Speaker
It's the same with the game system as a whole. It's like, oh no, here's what matters right now. If we're in season four of this TV show, this is the story engine for this season.
00:21:27
Speaker
you don't, it's, it's nice if you've seen season one, two, and three, but you don't need to know those things. You need to know what the 30 second intro crawl tells you. It's like, ah, these are the five characters now.
00:21:40
Speaker
Right. And if one of the old characters from season one through three, like pops up, one of the existing characters will say, Oh, Hey, it's been a long time. And the last time I saw you, there was an alien on your face and I thought you were dead.
00:21:54
Speaker
Done. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Pause, please. And go back and watch, you know, 76 hours of television. You know, what I think, I think comic books are what, what damage does us in that regard. It's yeah like C issue, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:09
Speaker
And was like, okay, and let me go buy those back issues. Yeah. And they also are like, but meanwhile, we're just moving on. Like you don't have to go see issue 76. No, but the completionist in us.
00:22:22
Speaker
It is. And that sells comic books. It does. It kind of does. But you don't need it. You just need to know so-and-so is punching this person today. So in a certain way, it's like a little bit of this is the the audience like – their own shortcomings in in the sense that they can't just let it go.
00:22:42
Speaker
Yeah. yeah yeah But I think, and I, for me, and we've mentioned this already, but the most important reason why I want to be able to do it is to, is to, is to not be restricted in what I do with that story to say, you know what?
00:23:01
Speaker
At the end of home cluster, this planet is no more. The people are gone. Yeah. Exactly. I can't do this because it would break the status quo Yes. It's like, nope, let's just blow up the status quo and people will figure it People will figure it out. and and And that's fun, right? Like, okay, GM, it's your campaign now.
00:23:19
Speaker
You finished the campaign. This stuff happened, this bad stuff, this good stuff, like crazy, whatever the world state is for you. Go ahead. Go on. Have fun. You've got the basis. You've played the plot point campaign. You understand what this is all about. Now go ahead and play play more if you want.
00:23:36
Speaker
Right? Yeah. Necessary evil was like that for me and my group, where at the end of it, you know aliens are are you know removed from Earth. Doctor destruction.
00:23:47
Speaker
or they're not. Yeah.
00:23:50
Speaker
you know But then like one of my players, for example, actually took on the mantle of Dr. Destruction. We imagined, we did like a sort of an interlude, but we called it epilogues. And you know like everybody narrate what what happens in the world with your character. and Oh, yeah. We did the same.
00:24:07
Speaker
Yeah. was pretty cool. And and like I was like, man, I would actually, i want to run that. Right? Yeah. Well, and that was, I mean, that was one of the challenges with Necessary Evil 3 is we wanted to go back and...
00:24:21
Speaker
revisit the Visoria Empire. And like, well, there's a question like in your campaign, did they lose is the Overmind dead or alive? Like, you know, like you know, and what my choice in that one, and I've done this multiple ways because Tor does this same, that same, like it could have gone either way, know, yeah, same problem. Right.
00:24:43
Speaker
But what I chose in that one, because I had a time travel plot anyway, was there's a ah sidebar that says like, this is how this is going.
00:24:56
Speaker
And if it went different for your campaign, nod and go, yes, that is exactly how you remember it going. Literally everyone around you remembers a different thing. Oh, wow. yeah And then when you get to the time travel bit,
00:25:11
Speaker
you get to participate again. and by the end of that, like it's clicked and the timeline has changed and you're like, oh God damn it. like We just changed. Nothing we did mattered. Yeah. Like now it's different. yeah So you can kind of have it both ways, like a little bit. Yeah. yeah But that's a fun, that's a fun reveal.
00:25:30
Speaker
You know, that's kind of, and which I just spoiled. Sorry, everyone. yeah
00:25:36
Speaker
But yeah, I just want that freedom. I want to be able to tell tell that, you know, get the get the PCs and the players involved in a you know satisfying beginning, middle, and end story.
00:25:47
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. And with ah with a sandbox campaign or a static setting, it really is on the GM to make that happen. Yeah.
00:25:58
Speaker
Whereas the designers kind of handcuffed. And I didn't want to be handcuffed. Yeah. You know? Yeah. and I think that's a really good point. Like I said, it's the nature of the product, you know, like with Eberron, um, and they even went so far to say like the novels don't even have, they're not canon.
00:26:13
Speaker
Right. Unlike Forgotten Realms where the novel's, you know, that was a frustrating thing too for forgotten realms. If you didn't read the novels, you had no idea why things change or who is what, or, you know, whatever, or what the, what the significance of certain elements were, maybe you didn't need to, but yeah it would certainly answer a lot of questions, you know?
00:26:32
Speaker
And I think that also comes down to that personality type, right? Like in, and your own level of investment, like I have minimal investments. So it's like something changed. I'm like, cool. yeah Like it's fine. i i rage and I hit something with my ax, right? Like I'm good.
00:26:49
Speaker
But the person that does care, yeah like can go read the book and get that Easter egg and be like, aha. So truly it was Skelos who was behind all this all the time. right and then they've got that extra thing, yeah like the payoff to their own paying attention uh,
00:27:08
Speaker
the I don't, but that's okay. yeah great yeah Appeals to different personality types. yeah and And I think something that... you know, we talk about deadlines we talk about necessary evil. We talk about everyone, something that those settings share is that it's the player characters that are the big damn heroes in those worlds. Yes. It's not, they don't have the Elminsters and, you know, things like that.
00:27:32
Speaker
You, you know, your characters are those people, to some you know, they do though. Well, they do. There are, there are big characters. Yeah. You know, that are, that are recurring characters, but they're not necessarily the ones that are moving and shaking the world.
00:27:48
Speaker
you know and instead of the players I mean, yes and no. though like the The players are definitely front and center and powerful, and that's why like the world has to you know evolve and change and all of that. but But more of that shakeup is being caused by like the cackler.
00:28:05
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and not just villains, too, but like it's like, oh, like you know the more time you hang out with someone like a Pennington Smythe whatever, yeah where you're like, oh, no, or Suitcase Lee. Suitcase Lee is freaking everywhere.
00:28:19
Speaker
like You can't trip without bumping into him, and he's in the middle of some adventure or whatever, and you're like, oh, okay, yeah, no, these adventures are happening you know, ours are just as important or maybe even more important. Right. You're not overshadowed. Yeah.
00:28:36
Speaker
But you're not overshadowed. They're out there. Right. Right. But it also feels like ah like a living world that way. Yes. Right. It feels like, Oh, something's happening beyond us. Like, and of course there's that, there's that thing of like, you, you, you, you don't want to present it to players unless it's directly relevant to them in some way. Usually. Right. Right? Yeah.
00:28:57
Speaker
But at the same time, like you can present these things that are happening in the world and Han Cluster does this. then The news of the Han Cluster in the all the Interacts are explaining something that's important to you.
00:29:08
Speaker
You may not realize it yet, but it is. And that's part of the fun of the discovery, but but it it's it shows that the world lives and that things are happening out there and that you can go interact with those things.
00:29:23
Speaker
Yeah. And that's one of those like layers of consequence that adds to your own the importance of your own actions. yeah like Without it, you're like, oh, we've got a choice between quest one and quest two. and you're like, cool, cool. Well, i like quest one seems more interesting. quest two can go by the wayside.
00:29:45
Speaker
You don't put a lot of emphasis on that decision. And then later on, you're like, okay, and now let's go to this city. And you're like, oh, no, that city's gone. like that was Quest 2. And, like, no one saved it. So, like, it's toast. And you're like, oh, my God.
00:29:59
Speaker
And then the next time you get a branch like that, you're like, wait, wait, wait. Let's think about this one a little bit. Let's figure out how we can do this. is going to And that empowers players. It just blows their minds the first time it happens.
00:30:12
Speaker
Like I say, ah at least the way Daryl ran it, 50 Fathoms was that way. 50 Fathoms is what I learned it from. yeah yeah And then there's a little bit of that in Han Cluster. If you if you ignore some stuff it will be very bad.
00:30:29
Speaker
And if you get there late, it'll be way harder. Right. Right. And that's fun. That makes it interesting choices for players to engage with as long as they know it's coming, as long as they understand. And and again replayability.
00:30:44
Speaker
yeah Yeah, exactly. And this time we run it, this happens. It it is. yeah love throwing stuff like that. Like in Mad World that we're playing this thing right now, the the group missed one of those. yeah Like it kind of was there and they're kind of meh, but we're busy and we're going to do this. I'm like, cool.
00:31:00
Speaker
Like ah maybe you know another couple of nights, like it's going to come around be like, oh yeah, those guys. um Well, then the other cool thing too, and when you have, you know, when you have world shifting events over time, that also gives,
00:31:18
Speaker
um you know say I say your customers, your your players, your your GMs, your ah groups, the opportunity to then pick which period of the setting they want to explore. like you know If you think about Star Wars, right?
00:31:31
Speaker
yep We have all these different periods yeah throughout the known universe and you can choose. you know Do you want to do Old Republic? Do you want to do Rebellion? Do you want to do post you know Empire, Star Wars?
00:31:43
Speaker
you know star wars And the really nice thing about that is once you pick your period and you're like, Hey, uh, like how did things shake out in the old Republic? Doesn't matter. They're all dead, man. Right. like It doesn't matter because the current state is the empire rules everything. And you're trying to, you know, fight back, you know, yeah reclaim the Republic. i don't really know what happened to Darth Revan, but you know what?
00:32:07
Speaker
right yeah Same with deadlines, though. Like deadlines noir is set in a certain time period. Hell on Earth is set in a certain reality, right? And yeah all that. so yeah And you can engage with that right at those points, right? You don't have to know the whole history of the history to do that.
00:32:26
Speaker
The Easter eggs, if you do care. But if you don't, like, meh. No. the Harbingers, uh, stream, right. They actually went through, you know, different periods of, of that, of that universe. And so that was kind of a cool way to to tie those together. Yeah.
00:32:41
Speaker
But as a, as a, like as an actionable thing, I, you know, so we always try to give you something to go on here and yeah it's just something worth thinking about because a lot of, a lot of designers are writing one shot adventures or whatever.
00:32:56
Speaker
that's That can be a big thing. Like the Han Cluster Jumpstart is a huge thing. If you fail in there, oh my gosh, terrible terrible things happen. But um it can also be a something that is like a savage tale where it's low stakes, low scope.
00:33:12
Speaker
So it doesn't really make a huge difference to the grander scheme of the world. And that's totally fine. right But it's ah at the same time, it's it's a lever that you can use. It's a dial that you can set in terms of of how much are you willing and do you want to um make it so that the PCs can really change things yeah depending on what they do.
Player Characters' Impact on World Change
00:33:36
Speaker
And whether you're making a huge setting or a small little adventure, this this is still a question, I think. I think. And it's worth thinking about. Yeah. Like one of the other really interesting use cases, like we've talked about some of the ones where there are different threads of reality to follow, like, you know, dead lands, like Torg and all that.
00:33:55
Speaker
One of the fascinating use cases for this to me is ah the dark eye, the the German fantasy role-playing game, which has literally progressed in real time since its launch in the eighties. Right.
00:34:11
Speaker
And so there, you know, Literally 40 years has passed in game, know, every year in the real world, a year passes in game and, you know, emperors have come and emperors have gone.
00:34:24
Speaker
And boy, you talk about, you know, hitting a wall for lore. I kind of did where I was like, Oh man, where do you even start in this setting that has been progressing, you know, for, for 40 years, you know, and it's an interesting challenge to, to solve.
00:34:42
Speaker
But I thought the most fascinating thing that they do, and but I've never implemented it anywhere else, but I think it would be pretty easy to implement it is ah on all the NPCs that show up in adventures, just like, you know in Savage Worlds, you've got like a wild card symbol.
00:35:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. on In Dark Eye, it's either got a pawn piece from chess, a knight piece from chess, or a queen from chess.
00:35:13
Speaker
And what those tell you is not their power level or attributes. It's how important they are to the overall story. It's scope. That's cool. So it's like, if you kill a pawn, it doesn't matter. They're never going to show up anywhere else.
00:35:30
Speaker
Who cares? Okay. If you kill a knight, was like, Hey, you know what? Okay. You're probably going to have to do some tap dancing. Yeah. Eventually. Cause we're going reuse this character. Like it's going to, it's going to make your world diverge a little bit. They're, they're important, but not too important. Like you can do it with a little bit of like, you know, squishiness or whatever.
00:35:52
Speaker
If they're a queen, it's like, you know, the, one of those quests, you know, quest characters in some games where you kill them in the game, just like, well, you cannot finish the game now. Like go restart. It's like a little flag, right? Like, yeah, it's just no, like this is an important person.
00:36:09
Speaker
You're just, you're going off a cliff. If something happens to this guy, I totally want to bring that into Savage Worlds with Jack's Queens and Kings. Absolutely want to do that now. Oh, that'd be cool. That's a cool idea. really cool That'd be really cool. Yeah.
00:36:24
Speaker
I thought it was very clever, too. That is clever. Probably probably my favorite thing about the dark eye. Yeah. I'm assuming that when they whenever they have like new additions or whatever, they they do a pretty good a job of like kind of encapsulating the current state for new gamers. mean, sort of. it it least Literally, the rules change, but the world just keeps marching on. Right. really yeah so you don't really Point being is that you don't really need it need need to know that history. Correct. You just need to know what's the current state.
00:36:54
Speaker
Yeah. right And I like the idea too of, you know, the characters in the world also evolving and changing, um you know, have it, you know, people stepping into or out of power or, you know, being altered, you know, whether metaphysically or, you know, whatever, um or even switching sides, you know, building new factions,
00:37:18
Speaker
Those kinds of things. i And I think that that kind of dynamic, um you know, it it keeps a little bit fresh. You know, now in some cases I could see as a GM over time, we're like, well, that's not my version of so-and-so.
00:37:33
Speaker
Yeah. Perfect. That's understandable. You've got season one. Just play in season one. Just take that version from season one and extrapolate from there. That betrayal didn't happen but yeah exactly yeah or Or it's literally just now you're you're still in that time loop. no no work Yeah. yeah Exactly. There's a little bit of that Han Cluster 2.
00:37:52
Speaker
ah There's a character that can mess around with things and and and the PCs like i went all in because it like look There's things called next architect or people called next architects in the world.
Permanent Player Actions and New Possibilities
00:38:06
Speaker
there's only one of them that you know of You could become one.
00:38:09
Speaker
You have to become legendary. You have to get several edges, right? But you can become one. And if you do, here's a list for the GM in the GM section of what possible things they could change in human space that are permanent now.
00:38:23
Speaker
like and And I think that's kind of fun because it gives the players in that campaign the power, if they want to go up that tree, and some people do, that they can, okay, now... Our gear list is different. Yeah. yeah Object reading and divination are now available in this setting, right?
00:38:42
Speaker
Where they weren't before. Or um suddenly the speed the speed limit for faster than light travel is much higher. Right. That, and that's going forward. And you did that.
00:38:54
Speaker
You did Right. Right. Opens up new possibilities and yeah. You know, and I think that's cool. Yeah. That's pretty cool. So anyway, anything else about this?
00:39:05
Speaker
Well, I'd just be curious. I mean, I know how you feel in terms of as, as creators for your own stuff, but, If you were, if somebody knew we're stepping into the space and they're trying to decide, do I want to keep it static or do I want to do meta plots and maybe they do novels and things like that as well.
00:39:22
Speaker
What would you recommend to them? So I think it depends on the scope of their vision, right? Like I think a lot of us, like when we do a game, we want to do a book and see where it goes.
00:39:36
Speaker
And I would say like, Hey, for that first book, it, Depending on you know exactly the kind of adventures that you're writing or whatever, ah kind of you don't have to make that choice yet. that You want to to put all of your effort into making your encapsulated version that anyone can pick up and go.
00:39:58
Speaker
With lots of hooks. Yeah, exactly. Lots of hooks. like Let them pick it up. Let them run with it. And then you can from there, like, hey, if there's going to be a second book, that's where you start to like, OK, now let's explore this a little bit.
00:40:14
Speaker
Do I want to change that status quo or am I still happy with the status quo? Right. And I would say as long as you're happy with the status quo, it works better for everyone sticking with it.
00:40:27
Speaker
However, the second the story says the status quo needs to change, embrace it, yeah follow that, and see where it goes. yeah And that's how you keep it interesting to yourself and other people.
00:40:39
Speaker
I like that. Yeah. Yep. I think so, too. Well, that's just me. Right. I mean, I understand there's a Other people don't want this, but I like it. And I understand that the lore burden of things like that.
00:40:57
Speaker
I get it Oh, yeah. i totally I think that's something that really comes when you're talking like 10, 20 years of longevity. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. When you're talking just a handful of years, like you're just starting with the product line and maybe you got a couple of plot points that are, you know, it's not that big a deal.
00:41:13
Speaker
If you're coming in 30 years later, there's lot. and that's for Yeah, man. Keep working on your elevator pitch though. Right. yeah Because right. Re-heater pitch. It might be different 30 years later.
00:41:26
Speaker
Right. But it's still an elevator pitch. Right. And if long as you've got that, you're okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's a point. Yeah. All right. Are we done?
00:41:37
Speaker
I think so. I think so. I guess the only question ever remaining, and we're at the end here, is have you seen it ever backfire where maybe people are pushed away? there is there Are there any examples that you can think of where that might have happened?
00:41:50
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. i mean without getting too particular, like I think that this was one of the early strengths of Vampire the Masquerade. was they had an evolving meta plot with a beginning, middle and end.
00:42:08
Speaker
and i think... When their meta plot came to its first end and they like switched gears into something else, it actually like slowed them down like significantly.
00:42:22
Speaker
I think the the second version was never, wasn't as popular as the first. Now ah I think they've struggled back from that. Like they've, they've kind of, yeah you know, they've come back.
00:42:35
Speaker
But I think that that was a surprise. Like everyone was fascinated by their meta plot. was like, that's really cool. And then like, I think everyone was equally surprised when they kind of hit the wall at the end of it. Like, oh man, okay. There's, there is a ah drawback to this, which is. Was that, was that the old world of darkness, new world of darkness? Yeah. Old world of darkness, the new world of darkness just didn't quite have the same power that the old world of darkness did. yeah and some people were disappointed in how the old world of darkness,
00:43:05
Speaker
finished up they were kind of like oh really yeah i think i think that's part of that is is having that in mind if you're going to do it have a plan at least at least a a series of hooks plan in order to know how you're going to advance things and yeah not mentioning any names here battle star galactica You don't have to know the story of what's going to happen, but you have to have the hooks in place so that you have those entry points for yourself to to to to evolve.
00:43:45
Speaker
yeah right I think it's important maybe not to have that plan in place. um But to know that, okay, I'm changing the world, but here are some open doors that I can go through to to move forward, not knowing necessarily what happens when I go through those doors.
00:44:03
Speaker
Yeah. when When I'm plotting, ah like you know and this is inside an adventure or inside a meta, I like to have at least two completely viable routes built together.
00:44:17
Speaker
In my own mind, whether I'm expressing them or not, yeah because just having one means it has to be done one way. yeah Having two it like well, now I've got to make room for not only these two, but every variation that anyone can come up with between them. And like, that helps you focus out like, well, here's some of the ways that it could go.
00:44:38
Speaker
And it might be a third one, but just having two means that third one can exist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah And you can build, you can build to it naturally over time as you're like, Oh, so-and-so wrote this adventure and that's, a adds this cool element that I can now pull into the main narrative.
00:44:59
Speaker
And you don't have to have played that adventure to use it. But if you have played that adventure, you're like, Oh, wait a minute. do We met that guy or we did that thing. yeah Cool. Yeah.
00:45:13
Speaker
Well, because this is my podcast and I've got something crazy cool coming out um on March 25th for people who are listening like ah relatively so close to ah airtime of
Hancluster Crowdfunding Announcement
00:45:25
Speaker
this. Han Cluster is crowdfunding on Backerkit. Hooray! We'll have a link in the show notes ah so that you can go follow the page or, you know, if it's live by that point, um it will be live and there it is.
00:45:39
Speaker
But it's very exciting for me because i'm I've been waiting for this for a long time to get this into people's hands and to let them see the full breadth of the setting I've created. So please look it up. Come see the awesome.
00:45:52
Speaker
this This might actually be the very last physical stuff that I buy, just so you know, Tracy. Wow. Because i'm I'm thinking about going all digital going forward, but yours, I'm like, no, there's a lot of cards there.
00:46:03
Speaker
Well, there will be a digital option. So don't worry. Got to get the cards. Got to get the cards. ah Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community.
00:46:17
Speaker
So if you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server. Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration.
00:46:30
Speaker
Until next time, keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few.