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Problem #19: Art Direction
44 Plays1 hour ago
In this episode we cover one of our most requested topics. Tracy and Kristian are joined by Jenn Ellis of Twogether Studios to demystify the art of art direction. We cover a number of different aspects, including how to find artists and get them onboard with your project, the different ways of communicating with them, the options you have when contracting with them, the revision process, and how to minimize the damage when the art you get back doesn't align with your vision for the project. Finally, it's important to remember that commissioning original art for your project can be the most thrilling and exciting part of the process. It can inspire you when you're at your lowest, and the artists you work with are partners that can take your project to new heights, both commercially, and emotionally (also, by "Palette, Tracy meant "Canvas"... duh!).
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The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
Twogether Studios: https://www.twogetherstudios.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to Designing Problems RPG
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems that we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're are your hosts for this delicate dance. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 19, art direction.
Meet Jen Ellis: CEO and Co-designer
00:00:42
Speaker
And I am especially honored to have and to be able to introduce our guest for this episode. We have the wonderful, awesome Jen Ellis, ah CEO co and co-designer at Together Studios, along with her life partner, Keith Baker.
00:01:00
Speaker
I mean, he's okay, I guess, but you know I think Jen's cooler, personally. Don't tell Keith I said that. um So, you know, we you you you are our expert for this episode because we're all experts, as we like to say.
00:01:14
Speaker
um And I am absolutely thrilled to have you here. just to i just want to like name some of the things that you've worked on that were very art heavy. Awesome. ah that i I, products that I think are absolutely awesome anyway.
00:01:26
Speaker
um Phoenix Dawn Command, ah very evocative with the tarot style cards on there. Cool, cool, cool. Some of the coolest art I've ever seen in a card game and ah the Adventure Zone game, of course. And my personal absolute favorite is Illimat.
00:01:42
Speaker
Yay. I love thank you the the the luminaries and all those. Oh God, it's such a great, I even have the extra deck and you know, it's so awesome. Thank you Well, thank you. and Thank you for joining us, Jen. It's really nice to have you. Thank you for having me. appreciate it.
Collaborating with Artists on Illimat and More
00:01:56
Speaker
So you've you've worked with a number of artists ah over the years with with these products and and others, I'm sure. um Some of those artists include, if i if I may.
00:02:07
Speaker
yeah Carson Ellis for Illimat, Mackenzie Schubert for Cool Cool Cool, Grace Allison and Rich Ellis for Phoenix Dawn Command. um And if honestly pick up these products, they're fantastic. just Thank you. Even just to look at them. And and at pick at all of the Ellis's in that list. None of us are related to one another. I just want to say that's like a happy coincidence that I'm not related to Carson Ellis. I'm not related to Rich Ellis. It's just...
00:02:35
Speaker
ah bet it would be cool if you were, though. Yes, it would be cool. I'd be like, I only, you know, would be the Nepo baby artist. Sure.
00:02:44
Speaker
And I assume they're not related to each other. No, no. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah just just a lot of relises in Portland, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so this is, this is a pretty dense topic. We're going to cover a lot in this now, personally, I'm, I'm here to listen to you guys because you both have had a lot of experience as Tracy, especially lately with, uh, with art direction and, um, and Jen, I'm just really excited to hear about your experiences with, you know, throughout the history of together studios
The Intersection of Art and Therapy in RPGs
00:03:14
Speaker
with key. yeah So, um,
00:03:16
Speaker
Tracy, is there anything omitting here? Is anything you want add? No, no. I know that this has been an anticipated episode. a lot of people do want to hear about this because it's so daunting. It can be so scary when you're a new designer.
00:03:32
Speaker
And trying to decide if you want to do art, or if you want to step into that sort of level of production, um and how to find them and how to communicate with them and, you know, how to negotiate with them and all these other things like that. Yeah.
00:03:49
Speaker
that That get really scary. and And like art art direction or or creating art for your project can be super personal, yeah depending on what you're doing. And so it adds that level of weird emotion to a business transaction yeah that you have to sort of suppress a little bit.
00:04:06
Speaker
I mean, what do you think, Jen? Well, um you know, my background is actually in art. i I went to art school and then I have an advanced degree in art therapy. And one of my favorite things is to talk about art in all its ways. and And as an art therapist, you know, from like a Jungian perspective, Carl Jung was like huge, you know, it's a he's one of the good guys, right?
00:04:30
Speaker
And ah one of the the basis things is that art is both personal and universal. We all have our personal thing about how we see something.
00:04:42
Speaker
um But then we have a set of things that we share. so And that's how we kind of connect and kind of use it as a language is ah we can say, all right, we're going to, i need an image of an elf.
00:04:58
Speaker
Well, for the most of us, we have this you know, well, what does an elf look like? And I'm going to have a personal perspective of what that is. And you're going to have that.
00:05:09
Speaker
But what is it in your world that you're creating and your story that you're creating? um If it's specific, and it has to be a specific way, or that you want it to be in a specific way, well, then you have to give some clues ah and and articulate that visually, so that people have that in their mind's eye when they're ah jumping into your world and creating stories in it. And so I think that always thinking, remembering it's personal, people have this ingrained sense of something.
00:05:41
Speaker
If I told the three of us, let's all draw a mouse, we're going to get three different pictures of that. Someone's going to draw Mickey Mouse, another person's going to draw a sweet little mouse, another one's going to be Mouse Guard, you know, all of us have this different view of it.
00:05:55
Speaker
um But ah that's where the direction comes in is to to kind of guide someone into what's in your personal mind about what what the world is that you're creating, but and you're doing.
00:06:07
Speaker
Yeah,
Communication with Artists: Freedom vs Specificity
00:06:08
Speaker
it's, oh man. Especially when what you're trying to create is is different than what is yeah usually out there. yeah yeah like There's that tropey fantasy setting where you know it's easier to communicate if the closer it is to what we already know. yes yeah And then there's the off, a little bit off the beaten path stuff where, ah yeah, i'm I've got very personal ideas and specific ideas about what I want. And yet, i they're not so specific that I know exactly what I want.
00:06:47
Speaker
yeah And so I'm trying to find that middle ground of having an artist there that can help me figure this out. yeah And with without giving them too much direction, but giving them enough so that so they're not feeling lost yeah and that I get what I want. You know what I mean?
00:07:06
Speaker
So what is your experience with that? like and And you can sort of launch into what you're communicate what you're trying to communicate with your products. Yeah. but Well, I work best with um artists who, well, first of all, um I learned early on is to really look through the portfolio of an artist before you even approach them.
00:07:27
Speaker
And
Selecting the Right Artist for Your RPG
00:07:28
Speaker
you can really like someone's artwork, but if it doesn't look like something like their line style or their how they ah draw characters or, you know,
00:07:42
Speaker
it's not, you're not going to change how they work. yes um You really need to work within they' their, their palette, like how their visual works.
00:07:56
Speaker
And starting from there is always the best of saying, I like, the color of this. I like how you articulated this over here from their own work, because then you're not asking them to be a different artist or a different person. yeah That makes sense. Yeah. yeah I love also sharing the whole problem of what am what am I making with the artist? I had this amazing, amazing meeting this week with the designer I'm working on for a new game.
00:08:30
Speaker
And it's not an RPG. doesn't have a lot of components. But ah they really invited me to to share all of my thoughts as a designer of a
Collaborative Storytelling with Designers
00:08:44
Speaker
game. like yeah Because I always talk about creating a milieu, a creating on someone's table,
00:08:51
Speaker
for like a board game or even anything, even for an RPG that has components, a feeling that like you're in another world right on your dining room table. Like there's something about it when you lay it out that kind of evokes something. Right.
00:09:06
Speaker
And what I love, one of the things that this designer said was, And by the way, they're a graphic designer who does illustrations, so i'm calling him a designer. But it can get confusing between game designer and... yeah But um they mentioned to me that...
00:09:24
Speaker
ah They spent last week digging. ah There was a lot of water in their backyard and they dug a hole and they, they you know, a big time, huge hole. And ah they realized there was like 200 gallons of water kind of coming in from a pipe up up ahead. And they had to like do all this work and then bring out like the company and like they explained their process of digging and understanding where this problem was coming from.
00:09:54
Speaker
and And then he said, i don't know ah how to explain this to you, but this is how I approach everything as a designer. like And I loved it because ah someone who's willing to kind of get into the weeds with you and really like who is opening up and saying, well, why is a species like that?
00:10:14
Speaker
Why do you want gills? interesting yeah it' Is it, if they're gills, shouldn't they be in a setting that's wet, you know, or like, like they're asking the question because they understand what you're trying to do with it such an amazing thing. So I love meeting people who are willing for me to like share about, you know, one of the things we talked about was i would said the word cosmic as in related to this game that we're making.
00:10:45
Speaker
And, ah and I was trying to articulate how I want the cosmic to be the fact that we're all working, that we're all together, that we're all together in one place, playing this game, not necessarily that it's like stars and whatever, like, yeah yeah and that,
00:11:01
Speaker
It's about dice rolling. And so there's a cosmic quality to that. I don't know how he's going to approach that, even if he is, but maybe he's got something brilliant and I don't even know about it, but I wanted to share like my outrageous thoughts. And it was such a, I just love when an artist invites me to share my art and how I view it. Yeah, that sounds refreshing. Like just yeah just having that dynamic and back and forth.
00:11:23
Speaker
yeah know we We talked a long while back, remember what episode it was, where about um how sometimes um the artist can contribute to the development of a setting yeah through the through the visuals and and things that the you know that the game designer doesn't even think about that the artist then you know introduces. And it's like, oh yeah, that's an element. I'm going to expand on that. That's really cool.
00:11:44
Speaker
Yeah. And so like I think that's, yeah, I hope when I finally do work with with an artist, it's that kind of dynamic. is yeah I love that. That's yeah absolutely awesome. You just never know, right? And so I mean, my experience, I'll speak...
00:12:00
Speaker
And I feel a little bad about it. I so i speak emotionally. i speak i speak in terms of what I'm trying to convey, not just visually, but from ah from a theme standpoint.
00:12:14
Speaker
And I start to feel a little bad, like, well, this isn't giving them any visual clues about what to actually do, right? and But I try to do both. right and And those artists who engage with that, who are interested in the whys and wherefores and what's behind it, like awesome.
Adapting Communication for Non-Native English Artists
00:12:32
Speaker
you know I have one one artist named James Denton who always ask he almost always will ask me some question.
00:12:40
Speaker
right It shows, first of all, that he's engaged enough to have read the brief and understand and and then try to contribute something. And his questions are always insightful.
00:12:52
Speaker
And so I'm like, ah, that's a great question. here's Or that's a great suggestion. Let's try that. And and he he usually brings something that I did not give him.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah. Right? And I enjoy that. It's great. He also happens to be an American, so it's easy to communicate with him. There are other artists I work with who English is not their first language. And so I have to be much more deliberate about ah the briefs I write for them and exactly the words I use to try to use a little bit more simple language and stuff like that.
00:13:27
Speaker
And there're there' they're all great, right? But but you have to know but it more concrete who you're talking to, you know, and know what their strengths are. that's And we talked about this before the show, is a lot of a lot of the...
00:13:42
Speaker
the You know, how good your art is, is so dependent on who you choose to do it. Like Jen was saying, like, look at their portfolios and see what their style is and know that you are not going to change who they are.
00:13:57
Speaker
um But also how you communicate with them in terms of what what you're looking for. And and and so, yeah, I...
The Role of Visual References in Art Direction
00:14:07
Speaker
When I'm working with people whose first language is not English, i I communicate differently than I do with people who are you know like me, who who can speak English natively.
00:14:21
Speaker
And so that's just one one aspect it. You could probably use more figurative language. you know, with with somebody who's a native English speaker, right? like Yeah, I can be a little bit more free about about what I say. yeah And I feel, right? And with, with ah you know, i work with a Bulgarian artist and one from, I forget now.
00:14:43
Speaker
They're from Indonesia or something like that. and And so I'm a little more careful. I just want to say the country name of Belarus just because I think it's a great sounding word. That is.
00:14:54
Speaker
But I've never met anybody from Belarus. But if you're listening and you're an artist, maybe you can send me an email. Just she say that in the mean, I'm working with someone from Belarus. But anyway, so yeah. Tracy, do you send Pinterest mood boards or anything like that with...
00:15:07
Speaker
you send um ah like pinterest for mood boards or anything like that with I do use references. So sometimes it's Pinterest. Sometimes it's just Google images. Yeah. You know, it's whatever whatever ah it's it's whatever me and the artist I'm working with is comfortable getting.
00:15:28
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Yeah. So um and I mean, I like references, but it's fascinating. References are fascinating because once you send one.
00:15:39
Speaker
you You better be prepared that the artist is going to pick up on something that you did not intend from that reference. Oh, interesting. yeah i mean Kind of like a manual AI thing where it's like, no, I didn't want that. Yeah, absolutely. They gravitate toward that know one color. Sometimes you'll send this reference thinking that you want like them to take, take the hair from this or the clothes from this or whatever.
00:16:01
Speaker
And they'll fixate on not only those things. And even if you say, this is what I'm looking for, they'll look at the shoes that you did not necessarily like yeah and translate that over. And then, you know, it's like, no, dang it. No, that's not what I wanted, but that's, that's okay. And we'll get into this about revisions and roughs and yeah how to communicate, like yeah to, to hone in on things.
00:16:24
Speaker
yeah But yeah, references, I do use references. i they're the I try to find something visually stimulating so that they can see not only my emotional descriptions, but see something concrete that they can start with.
00:16:43
Speaker
yeah i mean Do you give references or you just use text? Yes. ah i Because I'm just a very visual person from... um you know from I'll give references from their own art. Like, yeah it's not enough for me to say, I really like your art. it's I say, I really like the line quality that you have in this. I really like the perspective here. I like how you do color in this one. yeahp um Just so people know exactly what I like.
00:17:15
Speaker
Everyone's trying to please you and do a good job. Like they, you know, to, to give as much as possible is important. I'm like Phoenix Dawn Command for both, um, ah both the artists that we worked with. i ah There was a lot of art history and historical um propaganda posters from all different countries. Like, how do you make a fantasy...
00:17:41
Speaker
ah you know, kind of Roman Empire type of civilization propaganda photo ah in on your cards. You know, like, that's kind of how we worked. And, like, with a flat Byzantine style.
00:17:55
Speaker
Like, so there was, you know, like Byzantine images of, you know, flat with, like, gilding. And then there's all sorts of different stuff that we kind of put together. um Carson Ellis, there was...
00:18:10
Speaker
for Illimat, her art is, you know, I just love her art. And there was art that I liked and she's like, yeah, I'm not going to do it that way. I'm like, okay. You know, like, I don't, Yeah, wrong. Yeah, and I was okay. yeah she's ah She had an absolute you know vision of how she was going to do it. I certainly, um from a component from a product design, I took the lead on that.
00:18:35
Speaker
um But she just had her own vision and she had her own ah things that she added that she knew that fans of the band would like. I mean, she just was really independent. Awesome.
00:18:47
Speaker
and amazing to work with. um and um And working on you know maps and such, same thing. So it's very... I love the process, but it's a very anxiety-producing process because there's also the point in which...
00:19:07
Speaker
you're, you're always saying, does that make sense? I find myself saying that like so much time, so many times, because it's in your brain and you're trying to transfer it out. And the best first step there is to say, uh, let's do just a preliminary sketch, like set just a stop gap to see if we can understand each other.
00:19:30
Speaker
And, uh, ah It's a lot less ah capital if you know and sore feelings if we can go on and say, this was a really great process, let's do more.
00:19:44
Speaker
um And rather than this didn't work out or you know stuff So we can talk more about that process that, you know, artists, generally my experience, and this is just my experience, yeah generally artists, first of all, they want they want to do what you
Art Revision Process and Best Practices
00:20:02
Speaker
want. They're professionals. They're getting paid to do this. They want to produce something that you're happy with.
00:20:07
Speaker
And um if you communicate clearly and well, then they'll have something to go on. And as you as you develop a relationship, you you kind of get to know each other and and things get better, right?
00:20:20
Speaker
But the general process is they'll they'll come up with some kind of a rough situation. in which they're checking to see if this is what you want, right? And my advice to to people who are new to this, to you know, people who have wrote an art brief and they've they've they they've they're working with an artist at first, is to look at that rough very carefully because you'll it's amazing what will translate to a final.
00:20:46
Speaker
that um you missed in the rough if you don't if you don't look. You know what I mean? And sometimes, like the rough is great. You're just like, yep, love it, continue, fantastic. and And sometimes it's great to say what you love about it so that they know going forward what to emphasize, what not to, right?
00:21:07
Speaker
And sometimes you have to say, well, those shoes aren't quite right. I'm thinking this and this. i i Now that I see the way they're holding this, could we change that pose to this or whatever?
00:21:19
Speaker
um Jen, what is your experience with that process? Um, I usually ask them to articulate what they're, they're used to as far as, ah you know, ah most illustrators will have a, here's the process that I prefer, yes you know, like we do pencils, you know, or I do thumbnails and then I do pencils and, and we get approvals at each of these stages. Um, so a,
00:21:47
Speaker
Pencil is just a very high level sketch. You know, this is the, have I captured maybe this character in a way that you like? Um, it is definitely, it dips the toe in the water. Um, a pencil is then a you know, that's an opportunity to be like, Oh no, this guy has fangs, you know, like scrap to tell you. Yeah.
00:22:07
Speaker
Whoops. Uh, big honking fangs that, uh, you know, like totally missed it. Um, and then the next one is pencils. Usually, um, the, ah which is, you know, making sure the line quality is there. It's it's usually much more defined.
00:22:25
Speaker
It's essentially like everything that's going to be included and articulated in this image is in there. um And then, you know, there's always a couple more steps that they have, depends on how many revisions they do.
00:22:36
Speaker
um But ah it is... you know, just really important to be present ah and take the time out to to review everyone. doesn't mean that I always have done it very well. There are times where i would say that, like, yes, an art director is looking to kind of ah set the visual language of of of the project that you're doing.
00:23:00
Speaker
But the next important thing is to kind of make sure that there's no inadvertent um phallic things in a... Yeah, sure. Important things to look out for. And it's like, oh, yeah, there... Yeah, and like... it which With RPGs, it's almost totally impossible to um And i'm like there's been some things where I'm like, geez, you know, we're...
00:23:24
Speaker
How did I miss this one? ah Or that's too close to this particular IP or whatever. like Yeah. That ship looks like this from Star Wars something like that. You have to look out for that kind of stuff. ah so yeah, like it artists expect you to have revisions, especially in the early going. And yeah the and the further you get in the process,
00:23:49
Speaker
the smaller those revisions are going to get. right I mean, generally. And and then after that, they'll start they they can be justified in asking you for extra money to do some of those revisions. Yeah. yeah that and And I was going to ask about like you know when you're where when you're initializing sort of um your your engagement with an artist, right there's there's some negotiations going on
Defining Artist Agreements and Integration
00:24:10
Speaker
there. like How do you...
00:24:12
Speaker
define things or determine things like how many revisions per piece or, you know, like how much, ah you know, how how many iterations, you know, and things like that. Like, how how does, how does that form, I guess, like, you know, the rates and and all that kind of stuff.
00:24:27
Speaker
um Usually by ah the approximate dimensions. ah Not necessarily that like that couldn't be expanded, but it's also just the ratio and the amount of detail that's going to be in there.
00:24:40
Speaker
um I've worked with artists based on, ah well, first of all, for our tabletop games, you know something like Carson Ellis or... ah Sometimes I just truly believe that you know the art drives so much of the sale of something, and they're truly a partner with me on the design on something, that ah their rate includes a percentage of sales. so um And that could also be for... you know When I look at something like Wander Home, like that to me is like so driven by the...
00:25:13
Speaker
the aesthetic of an RPG. like I don't know what their relationship is, but I'd be like, wow, that's just something that you know i would just want them to be a part of the success of something.
00:25:25
Speaker
And something that they would be proud to kind of continually talk about after the project is done. That makes sense. Because Illumat, the art is very much part of the game. It's defining a lot of it. Yeah. I mean, Carson created, this is pretty wild, but she created a whole typeset for that.
00:25:44
Speaker
So that is a handmade thing. lettering that we then digitized that that. And we worked with amazing graphic designers on that. um Glenn Nesco, from ah who's based in L.A., to digitize that and kind of who makes everything kind of all work together and has continued to do so on all of our expansions years later. So you know there's just a lot of people who who can work on something who are not just the illustrators, or graphic designers as well.
00:26:20
Speaker
um The Adventure Zone was, ah i think we worked with two or three different ah graphic designers and illustrated by um Harry Connor, who's an amazing game designer in their own right and comic book ah ah graphic novels as well. So, ah yeah.
00:26:42
Speaker
nice Yeah, i've i've but what I've found is palette size is is one of the main things, right? Palette size? Like meaning how big, how big as far as as far as determining rate, right? Yeah.
00:26:56
Speaker
Like how big the palette they're going to be working on is. And like you say, level of detail. Yeah. So in... in Generally, because I'm only doing RPG stuff, I'm not doing these big things that a lot of board games require and stuff like that, unless I'm doing a big map or something.
00:27:14
Speaker
um There are three main palette sizes. And one is like a character piece where I'm trying to do just the character with a transparent background that I can put anywhere.
00:27:27
Speaker
And that basically is kind of a quarter page-esque piece, right? that that's They set their rate based on that. And then one is a half page scene piece.
00:27:38
Speaker
And that palette size is based on your page size. And it really, there's there's flexibility there. Artists will work within a certain range. And then a full page piece. And um you set they set their rate based on that usually is what I've found.
00:27:53
Speaker
And then um there's, like you say, like there's the percentage thing, if if they're so involved in in the creation of the piece, it makes sense to give them to to offer them a percentage of the of the sales of it or profits of it.
Work-for-Hire vs Licensing Agreements
00:28:11
Speaker
um There's also the question of of licensing versus ownership. Yeah. And that is delicate with yeah some artists. you know ah are ah Some artists, and justifiably, will say, i don't do work for hire.
00:28:26
Speaker
i only license. That's fair. I generally want work for hire because i want to own my art. And there's reasons for that beyond um just a selfish, I want to own my art thing.
00:28:41
Speaker
it's It's also that in in years to come, I want to be able to do with the art what I want to do with it. And that means saying to Netflix and, you know, 10 years from now when they were ready to do an animated series of Han Cluster or whatever. And this is stupid, but you never know. You just never know.
00:29:04
Speaker
That I own all the art for this. yeah yeah And that that that that that's that. Well, even if just want to do like merchandise and other products, whatever, it's all yours. But there's permissive licensing agreements available too. And that can actually help you because that can make it cheaper for you to get that art from the artist. What is your experience with this, Jen? Am I talking out of my butt?
00:29:28
Speaker
Okay. No, I think you're shining a great light. um i We do all ah work for hire on all of the games that we've done. Yes, I do too.
00:29:39
Speaker
I do too. Except for the Eberron books that ah Keith has done, that's you know that's a mix between WOTC permitted use and also... um And yeah, um going forward in the next book that and and I didn't work on those Eberron books until now. So the next Eberron book, ah which if you are on Keith Baker's Eberron Patreon, you would know know already.
00:30:11
Speaker
will be the art director on that. and there's... probably going to be a couple pieces that will own outright. And that's sometimes an artist will say, here's work for higher price. Here is, um, here's the licensing price and you just choose, you know, which one you can afford. yeah Um, and you know,
00:30:34
Speaker
Yeah, and they'll they'll give you they can give you terms about those licenses. And sometimes it's just like, hey, you can use this whenever you're doing this game, your license for this game. You can do whatever you want with it. But I still, eyes as the artist, I still own the art and yeah i can I can do my certain things with this. right Generally, of course, if even work for hire, the artists will want to will want to be able to use their art in their portfolios. Oh, yeah. And in then in that sense, of course, I grant them permission for that. Like, of course.
00:31:06
Speaker
Generally, I want to wait until the art is released in some way before they do that. And most and the artists that I work with respect that. right and um But otherwise, yeah i tend to do work for hire it's and and I it ah generally do it piece by piece.
00:31:21
Speaker
Unless you're doing a bigger project, like this is a whole thing, like ah a whole encompassing board game where you're doing all the art for it, yeah then a contract is likely very, very good idea.
00:31:33
Speaker
yeah um And with all the remedies of ah failure to perform and all that other stuff on both sides, that that becomes important, especially the bigger the project. Any thoughts on that, Jen?
00:31:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, those can get kind of hairy. ah But, um yeah, they're so – my brain is just kind of going to contracting, which is – It's a whole other thing. This is a broad overview. We're like, yeah this is a high-level discussion. Yeah.
Importance of Contracts in Art Projects
00:32:04
Speaker
I think – um you know asking someone that you want to work with, is there a contract that you'd like that you want to give me a you know ah the boilerplate of? And they'll have the terms that they're most ah familiar and like best in what did they give you. So that's a good place to start. yeah um And yeah, I think that agreements are great.
00:32:30
Speaker
Yeah, mean, I don't use them all the time because I'm usually doing a piece by piece thing. Yeah. It's it's for this piece. You know, we have an email agreement kind of. we we know We've said, I want to do work for hire at this palette, at this rate.
00:32:44
Speaker
You know, are you good with that? And the artist says, great. And we move from there, right? But if it becomes a bigger a bigger contract yeah or a bigger job, then you might want to start, especially when you've got deliverables ah to do with it, where I'm going to give you this amount or this kind of, you know, rough or blah, blah, blah. And for that, I expect X amount of money.
00:33:09
Speaker
yeah and And like when that becomes important, then you've got contract stuff to do. Yeah. Yeah. Because that can really ruin you. if if It can ruin the relationship. it can ruin it can it can make you lose money if you don't have those kinds of things in place for these bigger projects.
00:33:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. ah Go ahead. Oh, well, yeah, no, I was, you know, I've heard you all have shared some great stories, great experiences with artists. And yeah I'm curious, with you know, we don't don't you don't have to name names or anything like that, obviously.
Handling Miscommunications and Positive Feedback
00:33:44
Speaker
um What are some examples of some... situations that have gone awry, whether it's, you know, the, the person, you know, ghosts, right. Or it's just simply the communication isn't there. you know, you're, you're, you're struggling to, to sort of see eye to eye or, where the project, you know, doesn't have legs or, you know, like you've talked and had like an idea of something, but there's nothing, you know, like you're not going to you can't make that game for another two years. yes There's all sorts of things that can happen.
00:34:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So how do you um how have you approached those situations? um You know, what are some lessons learned, I guess? Yeah, I mean, i think if it's someone who I've never worked with before, um having a, can we do an initial sketch in the smallest, you know, size that they work in just just to see if we are on the same page to communication? Because I think that's where it all all breaks down usually, is that either I, as an art director, can't really communicate to you what I really...
00:34:53
Speaker
it what's in my mind's eye or that person is interpreting all that information in a way that just is not there. And you kind of have to use your gut to be like, I'm not sure if they're they're going to get it. Like, um I think one of the great things to learn is that there is...
00:35:16
Speaker
You cannot force someone, you know, people are not robots. ah If you truly um are respectful of their process and their art, then you also have to identify where the beginning and the end of that is.
00:35:34
Speaker
and um you have to kind of let it go and be like, yeah this is fantastic. I'm not sure I'm able to articulate to you what I really want.
00:35:47
Speaker
And so let's, you know, let's end this here, you know, and I, so I think we're going to stop the sketch. Thank you very much. And then you kind of look around and, and hopefully that experience has given you ah a sharper lens in what you're really looking for.
00:36:06
Speaker
ah With one of our projects, I kind of realized that somebody didn't really like, they were showing me like little floaty characters on white backgrounds, you know, with like no sense of like where things were or like how the relationship to things and which is great when you're just articulating a character. Right.
00:36:29
Speaker
But if If the brief was about an environment and where they're at and like a whole kind of the overall schema, the visual story of what you're doing, and that was an opportunity to do that.
00:36:46
Speaker
It's just, you know, like, this is not going to work. so um So, you know, it's it's worse if you're just going to spend all of that time pushing something someone to do something that they're not great at.
00:37:01
Speaker
And right yeah it's a waste of their time. That's not wheelhouse or whatever. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Yeah. yeah My experience, i I've never so far in my life. you know, relatively brief turn writing art briefs for artists and all that stuff.
00:37:17
Speaker
I personally have never like rejected a piece and said, I'm not going to pay you for it and because um part of that is on me for the artists that I selected for the piece.
00:37:29
Speaker
Part of it is on me for the communication that I gave them. In some cases, they've done beautiful work, yeah but I made a mistake. Like, this is not actually what i what I want. I thought it was what I want, but it's not.
00:37:44
Speaker
yeah This is a great piece. I'm going to pay you for it. But... That's that. I'm probably not going to use it. And I feel bad because the artist you know did that work and now I'm not using it. I did pay them. So we're all professionals.
00:37:57
Speaker
right We all understand that. some you know We all understand sometimes our stuff doesn't get used. um There's also been occasions where I've had artists who are just not quite...
00:38:10
Speaker
able to do or have the style that I'm looking for and in what I asked for. And so i I paid them and I said, great, awesome work.
00:38:21
Speaker
And, and, and that was that. But the thing is for that, for, for some of those particular instances is not that I don't use them again. Yeah. It's that I use them for now. I know better what, yeah what, what style they have and what their strengths are and what,
00:38:38
Speaker
in terms of what I'm asking for. And now I know this particular person's really good at this. So now I know to give them those kinds of things. And I think something interesting too is, you know, no matter what it is,
00:38:55
Speaker
ah it's probably, for the most part, going to be made into a physical thing. And a lot of illustrators, graphic designers that you will meet have never made something that goes into something physical.
00:39:09
Speaker
Really? ah Yeah, they just are not. If they're just coming out of school, they've made a lot of graphic for for a screen. for web stuff, everything. Web stuff. So they might not know what a printer's parameters are or how to submit it so they don't think about like full bleed and exactly color profiles, how you are going to package your files to send. Right.
00:39:38
Speaker
Your printer, if you're working with a printer, they usually have a link on their website that will have their submission parameters. That's just part of the art direction notes that I give a link to that. yeah um Just for kindness, because you might have to kind of go back as well.
00:39:54
Speaker
So so there's it sounds to me, though, that when those situations arise where it's like it's a communication issue or, you know, whether it's you're not being clear or they're not quite getting it or whatever, it's it sounds like it's important still to if you're going to end if you're going to end that.
00:40:12
Speaker
that project or whatever or whatever it is to do it just cordially. yeah like Hey, you know i i think you know maybe we're not communicating or you know i don't know that this is really fitting what I'm looking for, not your fault. you know ah you know Let's stop here and I'll happily pay you for the work you've done kind of thing.
00:40:34
Speaker
Yeah. so yeah And I think it's equally as important if someone sends you something that you really like is ah is to make sure that they can hear your internal dialogue
Fostering a Positive Environment for Artists
00:40:46
Speaker
about that. of Oh my gosh, this is exactly... i mean yes it's It's such a thrilling thing to get something that is in your mind's eye and to see that connection, like that electricity happening, that someone just made that come alive and you also you already know how it's going to impact your players.
00:41:02
Speaker
like to be as excited about that is so important to share that with the artists that you work with is right equally important to share. i don't think, you know, to be cordial about it yeah because it's so motivating.
00:41:16
Speaker
They're, they're trying to read our minds. Uh, and you know, art notes, of course, but again, sometimes it's not so easy. Exactly. And so when it, when it gets right, even like a part of it. Like, oh my gosh, the husks that you added, was perfect. Let them know what you liked so they know to do that again. Exactly. And I'm very vocal about that. I'm so grateful.
00:41:43
Speaker
I mean, especially especially in those moments when you've gotten a piece that you're not so happy with and you're like, yeah, and And it's okay. like I know this is scary and I know this is this is like it's hard for new people who are laying out money to do this.
00:42:01
Speaker
But sometimes when you get something that doesn't work, it's better to just put it away yeah and reorder it. yeah Sometimes you have to do that.
00:42:12
Speaker
Yeah. And hey, it's a great opportunity to maybe use that illustration if you if you own the rights to use it in as as later on is write a little.
00:42:25
Speaker
one page micro RPG and include that image in there. yeah Right. Like give, give that to all the people on your mailing list who are waiting for your, your next, uh, Kickstarter project.
00:42:36
Speaker
It's, it's something that you can turn into a something delightful that, you know, you've already invested money and it doesn't have to go into a drawer. And, uh, so there's opportunities to use that. You could just be creative about it.
00:42:49
Speaker
Yeah. And I was going to say like that, when you get the something that you're not quite happy with, And then you reorder it with somebody else or so or with the same artist. And it's that's a completely different approach.
00:43:00
Speaker
Yeah. When you get what you really want. oh It's a beautiful thing yeah because you're just like, oh, I'm not crazy. It is possible to get what I was looking for. this is great. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you, James Denton, for doing this. And thank you. Thank you, Dimitar, for doing this because, oh, it means so much to me. It's so personal to me. Yeah. And, and i you know.
00:43:26
Speaker
I'm thrilled to give them those those that feedback. Yeah. Nice. I know the revisions on ah Phoenix Dawn Command early, early part were, it was tough going. um It helps that, ah hey, if you can give a prototype copy of your game to your artist, it's great. Or if you can include them in a play test if they're so into that makes sense. Yeah. That's awesome.
00:43:48
Speaker
um I also i owe a designer a video play test of how people use the components in our game like ah later on.
00:44:00
Speaker
There's all sorts of things you can do. Phoenix Dawn Command was difficult because at the time, you know this is eight years ago, It's all card based. It's in people's hands. It's kind of so it's kind of interesting.
00:44:12
Speaker
And like, you you know, the Byzantine art and propaganda art mixed together. That was like a weird art direction. and um it took a while. But when it got it, I remember it's the it's the image on the back cover, which is.
00:44:27
Speaker
um it's, uh, I'll send it to you guys so you can somehow include it in into the show notes. Uh, I remember seeing that and be like, this is so flipping amazing. Like this is so, uh, if anybody knows that scene in like the wonder woman movie, um, where she's about to cross the battlefield and like all the things are coming flying at her. yeah It's like that, but like,
00:44:54
Speaker
not Wonder Woman, but like amazing. And, ah and so except skulls and it's great. ah So ah yeah, it's, it's pretty awesome.
00:45:06
Speaker
um And I just remember seeing that i'm like, Oh my gosh, we did it, you know? um And I think that's just people who wanted to get it right. And, and having a lot of, um you know, like Tracy said, a lot of respect for communication and, and Each person is kind of coming from a different perspective. so Yeah, one one sort of last thing I wanted to mention. as as the person who's ordering the art, the art director, the person in charge of of of communicating with artists and having the business relationship with them
00:45:42
Speaker
is
00:45:45
Speaker
pay quickly. Yeah, this is their livelihood. This is their professionals. Yeah. and you want, especially when you get that thrilling piece of art or multiple pieces of art or an artist that you really love working with, right?
00:46:00
Speaker
I mean, everybody deserves this, but especially those most people you want to keep. Yeah. When they get, you know, usually there's some, there's there's a point at which they're going to, they're going to give you the final file and you're going to give them money.
00:46:13
Speaker
Sometimes that changes which is first. It doesn't matter if there's a respectful relationship there. It happens, right? And i pay them as soon as I approve the final piece. And and we are in communication and have a thing in place about how they're going to get me the final file, right?
00:46:32
Speaker
Right. Because I want them to know that when I ask for the art and I say, yes, this is done, this is great, I pay them and that's it. yeah There's no more hassle.
00:46:44
Speaker
You used a word that I think is crucial in the relationship, right? Especially if you want to work with them in the future, you're you're creating a relationship. um And then, you know, to Jen's point, you know, if there's an opportunity where their art is a part of the game, right? It's so inherent. I think that, you know, building that relationship and maintaining it is crucial.
00:47:03
Speaker
Yes. know And just like, you know, we recommend artists to other designers, you know, they're probably going to recommend, you know, who to work with and not to work with on their end as well. so Right? yeah They probably talk about us. Oh, yeah.
00:47:17
Speaker
Yeah. have you Have you ever had art that it didn't work out, right? You stopped it. You're like, okay, i'm I'm going to stop here. But then you use that maybe as a reference for the next artist who's going to try to tackle it.
00:47:28
Speaker
It's like, this is sort of a direction, but I want it this, this, this, and this. Or do you just kind of just let's start from scratch? I don't think I have. I have not done that.
00:47:38
Speaker
No, unless it's like something where um someone's doing like graphic design in relationship to somebody else's illustration, where you know they might have ah take a color palette idea or even a font idea, you know, like based on, you know, the line quality or, you know, whatever. So, um but in general, you know, like I kind of think of it as like I came on the job and someone was like,
00:48:10
Speaker
well, this is the person we fired before you. And this is what we did. think I would feel weird about that. um Sometimes I've done my own drawings, but I definitely don't do it with, I even don't do those with any sort of accuracy or yeah skill. Deliberately.
00:48:29
Speaker
to Yeah. Deliberately ah just, you know, a mess because um you know, people just kind of, want to be on their own merit and stuff. I've done, I've done my own drawings for, for one, I do my own map drawings.
00:48:47
Speaker
So if I do maps, I will sketch out the map that I, that with the elements that I'm hoping to get. Yeah. Because i'm i i I want the battlefield to look a certain way, if it's especially if it's a battle map. right and so And I don't feel bad about that.
00:49:07
Speaker
i'm I'm asking the artist, like, here, interpret this you know as you will, but here's the here's the plan. I have also done little sketches, like stupid things on little Post-it notes that give the – the general idea of the composition the race that I'm looking for. Like, here's the ship.
00:49:24
Speaker
Here's the crazy, stupid storm on the other side. yeah This is kind of what I'm looking for. It's all it's stupid. It's terrible. yeah But it gives them an idea of the composition. Yeah. And I agree. i think sometimes I can be a little bit too precious because I'm, you know, like...
00:49:40
Speaker
ah because I think artists are precious, you know, and it doesn't, and sometimes in, they want, they would love to see a post-it note. And I'm just like, Oh, I couldn't, you know, like couldn't tell you what to do.
00:49:52
Speaker
And um John Kowalik once ah posted on social media that Keith Baker's like has some of the best um art direction notes ah after he was ah doing, um I think Munchkin Gloom or something.
00:50:06
Speaker
And, um, And so, and Keith has done almost all of the art direction notes on all of his Eberron books and everything. He's really great at it. And, um and he's not, you know, a trained artist in any way. And he does drawings of everything that he wants. And, and, and they are so hilarious. They're like, I, it's, he does post them sometimes.
00:50:29
Speaker
And it's, it's amazing because, um I think Keith has a quality that i admire and that i ah that influences me at times, depending on who the artist is and kind of their temperament, is sometimes you people just also want to be shown what they want to do. Yeah. it's not going to change them.
00:50:50
Speaker
ah they don't want to dig for the water leak. Uh, you know, they've got a lot of work to do and they have two kids or whatever. And, and, um, and so you kind of figure it out between the two, you know, ah from the, from the continuum there. yeah So sometimes I'd take my, uh, my learnings from Keith and, and just be like, put it on a post-it note. And, uh, and, uh,
00:51:15
Speaker
It's going to look weird, but they're going to make it look better. Super lo-fi. Exactly. yeah Yeah. I did one recently for an artist named John Taylor, who I love. He's really good. And um I was looking for something very specific. So i I actually sketched it out and I had my little stick figure, like people holding, you know dad holding hands with his daughters, just stick figures looking at this thing. Like this is the composition that I'm kind of looking for. This is, I'm, I know this is very specific, but some of these art pieces I'm super precious about. And so here we go.
00:51:50
Speaker
And John was perfectly happy to take that. I think, and mean, he said, he said he was, and he worked up something amazing. Right. Like it's like, I can't do that. yeah yeah But he did what I wanted because I gave him that direction.
00:52:05
Speaker
yeah And sometimes I do that. Not usually, but sometimes I do it. There's artists that are going to want to, like I said, dig for the water. you know Where's the water leak? What it is. And the other artists are just, just tell me what you want.
00:52:19
Speaker
And it's good to ask that question up front. Which are you? Are you somebody who kind of wants to get... wants to get lost in this process and figure out the, the, the path, knowing that I have my own ideas about what I want at the end, or, all do you want me to show you my ideas up front and kind of meander together or like, there's all sorts of things, but I think kind of understanding what that, that style and that type of conversation is important for somebody you're going to be doing multiple pieces with and, uh, or full project
Jen's Journey and Future Collaborations
00:52:49
Speaker
with. Yeah. I imagine it's also, yeah, it really depends on the project itself because you might want somebody who is going to be engaged and, and, you know, to the point maybe where they are going to get a percentage, right. Yeah. Yeah. Versus somebody, you just need a couple pieces from them.
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. If you're somebody who's saying, just tell me what you like and you don't like, and I want a percentage, that's not going to work for me, but you know, right right um ah but if it's somebody who wants to get stuck in and and ah has their own following and you know wants to do promo just like I'm doing promo, then yeah, let's do it.
00:53:22
Speaker
Awesome. Very nice. Anything else, Christian? No, I mean, I've, it's, well, I haven't done. This was fantastic, by the way. Yes. Oh, good. Oh, my God, Jen. Thank you. Yeah. Oh, yay. Yeah. I, um and I haven't had experience yet working with artists for like illustrations. I have worked with layout, you know, get trying to get layout done and, um you know, doing the. is one of those, this is one like of all all the design work that we've we've been talking about this whole podcast. Sometimes it's just.
00:53:50
Speaker
soul crushing stuff right sometimes this is very difficult work but when you're working with artists that's one of those rare areas yeah where it can be thrilling yeah absolutely thrilling well you see it come to life yes right everything that's in your head comes to life you know Yeah. And yeah, so for us, you know, we've we're we've been working on on layout for one of our products and um and doing the Pinterest boards and, you know, and and what was cool in that experience too was that they were also contributing to the Pinterest board.
00:54:22
Speaker
You know, here's what you it was like a communicating back. Is this what you're thinking kind of thing? yeah And that was really helpful as well. Yeah. Yeah. and I find sometimes graphic design can almost be harder than an illustration because you have to communicate things like like kind of on a card. It's like, here's the order of operations of what someone has to decipher to make a choice in the game on this card.
00:54:47
Speaker
you know like But don't make it too busy. you know like yeah But here's the nine things they have to figure out. Go. Yeah. Yeah. ah ah That's hard. Super hard. Yeah. So that it's hard stuff, but, ah you know, it's a lot of fun. um I love doing, you know, the high level like product design on things and and ah and really being a ah partner to Keith on world building, you know, just.
00:55:15
Speaker
ah It's one of the most invigorating things as far as like from the day I met him is just hearing his ideas for for worlds and my imagination, my visual imagination just going and just you know just kind of ah talking about stuff is just a lot of fun. So I'm excited. I've i've been very intimidated about doing a Dungeons and Dragons product. um But I'm excited about um working with him on for the first time on the Eberron book. I think between between the two of you and the talents that you both have and the passions that you both have together and working on stuff together, I i think you guys are going to nail it.
00:55:56
Speaker
so I'm so excited. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be great. Well, once again, Jen, thank you very Well, thank you both. i was really lovely talking with you. I hope that we may be able to have you again. Yeah, would love to.
00:56:07
Speaker
And like, really, just just a fantastic conversation. Wonderful, yeah. And let let Keith know he's not off the hook. We're going to get him on here at some point as well. Yeah, and definitely. Awesome. Very cool.
00:56:19
Speaker
Well, thank you for listening the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server.
00:56:34
Speaker
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