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Problem #37: Criticism
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On our penultimate episode, Kristian and Tracy tackle the topic of feedback and criticism. How to seek it, how to take it, and how to give it.
Join our discord!: https://discord.gg/Bc9dvuzZYJ
The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to Designing Problems RPG Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this bitter pill.
Topic of the Week: Criticisms in RPG Development
00:00:18
Speaker
And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 37, Criticisms.
00:00:43
Speaker
Tracy, I think that could have probably been done a little bit better, maybe with a little bit of emphasis on on that word. um that i i liked the approach that you had, um but yeah, the word I felt like the word was just a little too soft ah and in terms of emphasizing. So first syllable emphasis. Yeah. Criticism. Yeah.
00:01:07
Speaker
Criticism. Criticism. Something, yeah. Like something to that effect. I mean, I'll let you feel that out with your own voice. Sure. But yeah. Well, thank you for the feedback. Yeah. Christian.
00:01:19
Speaker
really appreciate it. as a As designers, you know, we know how hard these things can be to hear. so Sure. Sure. Thanks a lot.
00:01:30
Speaker
So here we are. The criticism episode. Yeah.
00:01:38
Speaker
Well done.
00:01:40
Speaker
Well, before we get into this whole thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Announcement of Podcast Conclusion
00:01:44
Speaker
um We have an announcement that we've already made on the Discord server, but yes and well it now we're we're doing it on the podcast itself, which is that the Designing Problems podcast is ending.
00:01:59
Speaker
yeah And this was always the plan is we were going to do as much as we felt like we had something to say about and um try not to repeat ourselves too much.
00:02:13
Speaker
um And, you know, end it when we were done. Yeah. Yeah. We've gotten there. We had a a list of topics that we knew we wanted to cover.
00:02:24
Speaker
We went through that list and here we are. So part of that is I'm sure we could talk about a lot more, right? We could. But I think that we've i think we've covered stuff in a way that hopefully is evergreen. We didn't do any too much topical stuff except, you know, the Hunt cluster going through that whole process.
00:02:47
Speaker
But um I think it's re-listenable and I think there's there's a lot of good stuff there that people can draw from in the future. as well as from the past, right?
Plans for a Final Episode Q&A
00:03:00
Speaker
And that was the goal is to to to do that. And so, i don't know. I think we've done it. We're going to have one more episode after this. um We don't know yet, but we're we're looking at finding somebody from the community to join us.
00:03:16
Speaker
And on the Discord server, if you want to go there, um we have a questions and topics channel just for this purpose. for you to suggest questions that you want us to answer that we haven't answered yet or any topics or whatever that that might interest you that that we might be able to cover in a short little snippet of time.
00:03:39
Speaker
of like a lightning round Q&A kind of thing. Before we say goodbye for good. Yeah. So, Christian, what are your thoughts on that?
Transparency in RPG Design
00:03:49
Speaker
You know, I'm really glad we got to do this. um I think personally that it's it's really refreshing to have designers coming in here you know onto the show and ah talking about their experiences, talking about um their challenges, the pain points, the successes, wins, all those things.
00:04:11
Speaker
I feel like there's a transparency that has been lacking prior to this. Like there's, i don't want to say gatekeeping, but just sort of like this ah opacity where people who are trying to get into publishing, it might feel to them that it's it's extremely daunting. and it's like, oh, well, I couldn't do that.
00:04:32
Speaker
um I think I would, look I hope that this show... And the topics and the guests kind of shine the light on how approachable it can be.
00:04:43
Speaker
You know, and there's, you know, different degrees of, you know,
Constructive Criticism in RPG Design
00:04:48
Speaker
publishing, whether you're just doing a PDF on drive-thru, doing a full-blown Kickstarter with fulfillment or, you know, something in between. Right.
00:04:58
Speaker
um This may be naive, but I hope i hope that possibly ah more publishers and designers will have more open conversations about this kind of stuff. It is hard because yeah that opacity, there's something to be said for that when you're when you're trying to sell the product.
00:05:21
Speaker
Right, right. You know, and yeah and we we decided to try to be as transparent as we could about it because... ah You know, i want I want you to get something out of it.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And, i you know, um I don't think, you know, I want to be clear. I don't mean like, you know, pull back the veil entirely, but just being open to sharing, you know, advice and yeah the experiences that can help others, um you know, get into...
00:05:54
Speaker
You know, it's it's a hobby, but it's a business. yeah and And yeah, I mean, there's just there's just a lot of information out there. I think that, you know, we don't realize we don't know when we start off and having somebody or people or a community of people helping guide you. um You know, i think I think that would be good for the industry, honestly.
00:06:17
Speaker
You know. Well, yeah we'll talk more about it next week, I'm sure. Yeah. But um for now, we're going to talk about criticism. Yeah.
00:06:29
Speaker
And what we mean is ah not just, you know, giving it or taking it, but, you know, how do you how do you seek it, right? Like, you know, how do you how do you receive it?
00:06:41
Speaker
um Process that, synthesize it, all those kinds of things, right? It's painful. it It is painful. And I think, so part of this conversation is going to about, be about the seeking part, right. And where to go and how to sift through valid criticism versus, you know, the, there's always that, you know, that, that small pool of people who are just, I'm going to tell you everything you're doing wrong, you know, cause I'm an expert.
00:07:12
Speaker
But not. Yeah, or something. Something, right. In psychology, they've already discovered there's there's you know reproducibly statistical evidence.
00:07:24
Speaker
outliers yes right like on both sides on both ends this is fantastic and awesome and perfect don't change a thing right and this is trash just yeah delete it and go kill yourself right so the first thing to do is to sort of call those people on both sides yeah away yeah like though it's it's nice to hear this is all fantastic and stuff but they're not really helpful. you You want that,
Identifying Useful Feedback
00:07:51
Speaker
those middle percentiles, right? Yeah. On the bell curve. in middle.
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah. um And to, and to try to just ignore those, those outliers because they're not useful to you. You know, identifying them is tricky. Yeah.
00:08:09
Speaker
Like knowing, and this is what we were, what we're going to talk about is knowing when to ignore ah criticism. Mm-hmm. is really tricky business.
00:08:22
Speaker
And, uh, I don't know that anybody masters that, but maybe they do. I don't know. People who are are very like, uh, I don't care about criticism. And thing is like I kind of do.
00:08:34
Speaker
And that that's what makes it painful. Yeah. And and I don't know. we dive into that? Yeah. So my take, and this is coming from, you know, again, the UX designer hat. Yes, yes.
00:08:50
Speaker
um but I find that I try to approach criticism with curiosity. Mm-hmm. um So if I have the opportunity to interact directly with the individual who's giving the criticism, what I will do is I will try to like say, hey, can you say more about that?
00:09:07
Speaker
you know Can you expand? and you know as it And then start asking questions yeah that are like, well, you know is it really about this? Or was it more that you were feeling that? And that's really a symptom of...
00:09:18
Speaker
something else, you know, is the problem really that thing that you're pointing at? And maybe I'm i'm not asking that directly. Maybe that's for me to solve, yeah yeah but but I'm asking questions to figure out if it is in fact that specific thing. Exactly. Exactly. Or a symptom.
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah. They will be able to tell you whether that's the problem or not, yeah but you will be able to ask questions so that you can figure out whether that's the problem or not Right, exactly. And the same is true for, you know, what we would call like feature requests or, you know, or enhancements or whatever, enhancement requests, where somebody's like, oh it'd be great if it did this.
00:09:55
Speaker
It's like, okay, well, but why? Like, what, what is it that you're trying to accomplish that you want it to do that? And it might be, well, they want it to do that because something else you're doing is making it harder to do that.
00:10:09
Speaker
And maybe you just need to change, you know, that other thing that you're doing and not add this new feature. Right.
Collecting Feedback Before Implementation
00:10:16
Speaker
Uh, so, that is a hard thing to do. It's a hard thing to really, to pick at. You got, it does take an amount of resilience to,
00:10:24
Speaker
ah to drill into those things, especially if you're getting a lot of feedback from a lot of sources. yeah um Tell me, tell me if this is true of your experience, Tracy, did you find that some of the feedback you got was um like duplicated, like meaning like multiple people were kind of giving the same thing. And so a lot of it was just, oh yeah, this is all centered around the same issue.
00:10:49
Speaker
That, that is part of taking feedback. Yeah. um However, I found there were some duplicates in terms of the super small stuff like, you know, double period here. oh yeah, yeah. Punctuation, grammar. Capitalization here or double word or whatever. Like there were multiples of those. yeah But I didn't have enough of a pool to get too much duplicated feedback of some of the more um complicated things.
00:11:20
Speaker
Right, right. Okay. Because there's a lot, there was a lot in there, right? And and so i can't expect everybody to catch everything. Right. um Or or have ah have an opinion on on everything, right? Like some of them are just going to glance through and they're going to be happy and whatever. And then the thing that they care about comes up and then that becomes more interesting to them that's what they're going to latch on to.
00:11:45
Speaker
Right. Right. I'm kind of counting on that. right Yeah. It's what you're casting the net wide for a reason. Yeah. And, and, but when I have run into that, like with when I, with Honklester, I got about, I don't know, a hundred, 150 pieces of feedback per book or so from the community, which is quite a bit. i might be maybe more than that, maybe 200, somewhere in there.
00:12:10
Speaker
Holler, I got 500, 600 pieces of feedback right that I had to go through. And the the best practice is to wait until all the feedback comes in.
00:12:23
Speaker
Don't mess with it until you're until you've got it in and no and they can't, yes especially if you're doing form like did. Get all the data together first. Get all the data first. Don't mess with it.
00:12:37
Speaker
It's hard to do, but don't. And then read it and see if people bring up the same issue or if they if if some people get it and other people don't and because it'll inform how you fix it.
00:12:53
Speaker
Right. ah Based on how many people mention it, what they're mentioning about it, you know all that stuff. It's going to help you, inform you how to how to fix that problem. If you're just looking through it,
00:13:05
Speaker
And you fix it one way and then you find three other pieces of feedback that find a different problem with it. Then, well, okay, now I've got to revisit this and fix it in a different way.
00:13:17
Speaker
Right, right. So, yeah, sometimes. Sometimes. That's the long roundabout way of saying, yes, yeah I would get loop duplicate pieces of feedback. and Yeah. And and and to to your point about um getting all of it, basically you're doing that because, and this is true in like research, for example, when you're when you're collecting research data, um you you do what's called coding your data, where you're kind of creating a system for categorizing and labeling and analyzing and interpreting it, right? So so the feedback that you're getting
00:13:50
Speaker
you know there's there's There may be buckets of like, okay, this is related to X and this is related to Y and so on. range So that helps you see, well, there's a lot of things related to X. There go. you know there's There's some problems there I got i gotta to figure out. And then you can go through those things. so So yeah, don't, like you said, don don't start messing with things until you have all of it.
00:14:13
Speaker
Because you might be messing something messing with something that doesn't really need to be touched possibly. Exactly. the The other aspect of that is ah
Approaching Feedback Open-mindedly
00:14:23
Speaker
emotional.
00:14:25
Speaker
You know, like if you're looking at it every day, if you've got a two-week, like I did, i had a two-week feedback period for each release that I did. So one for the source book, one for the adventure book, and, you know, related stuff.
00:14:39
Speaker
Two weeks. Yeah.
00:14:42
Speaker
don't look because you can either be stressed out for that two weeks. Yeah. or you could just not look until that two weeks is over and not be stressed out.
00:14:55
Speaker
and And here's the thing. If, if there's any amount of insecurity within you, Every single piece, regardless of how valid or invalid that feedback might be, is going to feel like a gut punch.
00:15:08
Speaker
Right? Like it just, cause it's really, it's really easy. Well, no, let me, let me rephrase that. It doesn't necessarily have to feel like a gut punch, yeah but if you let it, it could. And the idea is to not let it.
00:15:22
Speaker
Right. just yeah And it's hard. It's really hard. It is What i found, at least in my particular case, was that I was super anxious about it.
00:15:34
Speaker
And then when I finally did look at it after the feedback period was over, I'm like, oh, this isn't so bad. Yeah, right. I mean, there were like... all there's There's always one or two pieces where it's just like, okay, that's going to require multiple places in the book. I'm going to have to actually rewrite some stuff to get that fixed. yeah I have to think about how to fix this.
00:15:59
Speaker
And there's things, oh, yeah, no, you're right. Good call. Good call. That's a good call. I'll fix that. I can fix it in two seconds. True. Right. Right. And then there's, there's a few. And like we were talking before we started, there were like, I use a spreadsheet. So I'll, it's a Google form and I had a very specific way and we can talk about that too.
00:16:20
Speaker
But um to ask for the feedbacks is part of, part of seeking it. But I also, ah tied that Google form to to a Google sheet. So it auto-filled the Google sheet with with columns and stuff, and it was organized.
00:16:35
Speaker
And I used colors of background. So I used a ah green shading in the cells for something I addressed and was finished. I used an amber shading for something. I'm like, man, I got to think about that. that's gonna I'm going to have to come back to that later.
00:16:51
Speaker
I'm to have to think about it. And then I used a red one for something I basically ignored or didn't address at all. Because either I thought it was wrong or I thought it was irrelevant or whatever.
00:17:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's the won't fix you know label that we put and on the GitHub issues. That's the won't fix thing. And really, honestly, 100 pieces of feedback or 150 whatever, three that turned i got maybe two or three so that turned red Yeah.
00:17:21
Speaker
Everything else I addressed in some way. Right. Right. Okay. And yeah so, and, and really I, some of those red ones I fretted over. Yeah.
00:17:32
Speaker
I was like, no, this is kind of the way it needs to be. But I understand I'm trying to look at it from their perspective. I'm trying to look at, is this fun? Is this something that's, you know, is this, is this a real, is this a problem?
00:17:46
Speaker
Right. And that, that's, that's, that's important to do, right? You have to go through that with those, with those things, because there is a validity to when somebody, when when a user, you know, expresses ah frustration or or a concern or whatever it might be, you know, again, going back to that curiosity like why is this frustrating? And is this valid? Or is this, you know, really more of, it's just a ah unique preference, right?
00:18:09
Speaker
preference Right. um And that, you know, that's part of the synthesis of of trying to determine whether this is really an issue or this is more of they just have a personal preference or, you know, or they just misunderstood in general.
00:18:26
Speaker
And they're, you know, because they read too hastily or whatever it might be. Right. Yeah. Something. And yeah so sometimes it is a personal preference, but it's like, does it really hurt me to change it No.
00:18:37
Speaker
Right. It does not hurt me to change it. And it probably so will be, it will address the personal preferences of others too. Yes. Right. So I'll change it. Yeah.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'll change it. Yep. Thank you for that. It's that's, that's good feedback. Right. It's all good. Right. Even the stuff that I don't incorporate, it's still good. i still appreciate it. Even though.
00:19:03
Speaker
You know, saying thank you for your feedback can sometimes be hard. Yeah. It can. Well, I mean it every time, but it's's it's still hard.
00:19:14
Speaker
There's an appreciation for receiving the feedback in general. Yeah. right Because this person is is caring enough that they. Oh, yeah. They wanted to, you know, submit something. i got I got a bunch of feedback from one person I'm super grateful for. I finally put them a credit in the jumpstart for them because they did all that work.
00:19:32
Speaker
That's awesome. Very cool. guess since they got a credit, who was it? It was Dracoon from the HonCluster server. Nice. um he He was very vocal and very enthusiastic and very interested. And I tried my best to...
00:19:50
Speaker
to engage and to listen. And there were some things he was completely right about and some things that were just laziness on my part that yeah that he pointed out that I'm like, yep, that's a good call. That's something I've been, i've been lazy about. And now is the time to fix it.
00:20:11
Speaker
Yes. Very cool. And it will three hours. Very cool. that's That's awesome. And that's why we do it, right? That's why we get that feedback. It makes it a better game. It does. Yeah. It does. if if you're willing and you have the time to do it. And for me, it was important because...
00:20:28
Speaker
I have people looking at it. I had an editor. I had a great editor. Jodi Black is great. And she pointed out a whole bunch of things before backers even got their hands on it.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah. And it was very valuable. wasn't that it was bad. What I had done was good. But what she did was stuff that I would not have seen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker
And I'm like, wow, that's some good reading there. there's ah there's a um There's a book I read um in a web design book, called Just Enough Research. And there was a line in there that I take to heart and it's um familiarity breeds blind spots, which is why we do the research, why we you know collect information from others and Because, yeah, we're too close to it, right? well I know this. This is fine. No, I know this inside and out.
00:21:17
Speaker
But they're going to see something that you didn't because you're looking at it the way you look at it. ah you know So, yeah, I think that's that's really cool. It's really cool that you that you had all that.
00:21:29
Speaker
It was good. And I'm so glad I had it.
Contribution of Feedback to Game Enhancement
00:21:32
Speaker
I'm so glad people read it. Yeah. ah it's it made the game way better because there were some pieces that I'm like, wow, this is, they're right.
00:21:42
Speaker
They're pointing out something that I have been struggling with and hand waved. And now I have to fix it. yeah Now is the time that even at this, at this last hour, finally change in that X tuner edge to something that's useful, if you're fixing how the next engineer edge worked,
00:22:02
Speaker
Like these were things I was iffy on and finally just said, nah, to hell with it Let's just put it out there like this. as is, yeah. And eventually i was forced to look at both of those again.
00:22:14
Speaker
And the good thing is sometimes that that can actually feel exciting. Yeah. when you When you get that feedback like, oh, I totally missed that. Or, oh, I didn't realize how bad that was. And then feel good. somebody else saw it, so now i've ah now I know I have to fix it. Yeah.
00:22:29
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. that It can be a good feeling, is I guess, is what I'm trying to get at. um It doesn't have to be you know the gut punch or whatever. you know yeah and it so usually wasn't. Yeah. It usually wasn't. There was... there was Actually...
00:22:44
Speaker
It was all anxiety. Yes. Right. Because I've worked so hard on this. did you Did you feel that it was all upfront before you even got the feedback?
00:22:56
Speaker
Most of it. Yeah. Once I actually was starting to do it, there were a couple that I knew were going to require some work, but it was like, oh no, that's fixable. I can fix that.
00:23:06
Speaker
Yeah. It'll take three hours, but I can fix it. Right. Right. And some of it was three hours because, okay I've got a page. I've got to do it on whatever I'm going to do. It's going to happen on this page, which means I got to delete a sentence here, you know, find some room here.
00:23:26
Speaker
Which paragraphs have an orphan that's one word so that I can get a line back? How can I cut a word in that paragraph so that I don't have that one word orphan so I can find a line so I have room to do what I need to do?
00:23:38
Speaker
this is this was This is the stuff I had to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's all over the Thanks fixed layout.
00:23:48
Speaker
But it made it better and it forced me to tighten in areas that I would not normally have tightened. Right. You know, I'm like, do I need that? No, it turns out I don't. Trim trim the fat, right?
00:24:00
Speaker
Yeah. And you can't trim it. Every piece of fat you can't. No, no. You want some you want some of that juicy flavorful fat in there. yeah And you don't want to.
00:24:11
Speaker
You don't want to. Some of that fat is style. Some of that fat is is lore that's interesting. Yes. Yeah. you know So the hard part is is trying to figure out which pieces to cut out. Right. And this can point you in that direction. yeah If it says, if there's something you need to fix on page five,
00:24:30
Speaker
boy, you're going to find that fat on page five. Yeah. And you're going to trim it so that you can fix whatever, you can add whatever sentence you need to add to give the clarification that they're asking for. Well, you know, that's, that's how it works.
00:24:44
Speaker
So I think, I think that kind of speaks to the, you like when you're processing this, a lot of it really is about how you, how you frame your mindset when you're, when you're, so when you start looking at this, this criticism, this feedback, right? Yeah.
00:25:00
Speaker
And that really can help how you process it. Because it it'll you can either go from feeling stressed and anxious and frustrated an angry, maybe even, or defeated, even.
00:25:15
Speaker
Like, oh, man, like what am I doing? i got all these mistakes and all these things and, oh, I can't do this. Or... You say, this is opportunity. yeah This is opportunity for me to learn.
00:25:27
Speaker
This is opportunity for me to do it better before I put it out there. yeah. yeah That's a big one. So I think i think that that is a very, um delicate you know it's And you know be fair to yourself when when you're going through that. yeah don't Don't beat yourself up.
00:25:47
Speaker
And there there are moments when, and we've talked about it, when yeah early especially early on, like the backer feedback period, home cluster was very solid by that point. So there were some things I needed to fix, but I felt confident that I could fix them. It wasn't game breaking. My fear, my absolute fear was that somebody would find something game breaking, that yeah they would find something just so egregiously awful that that i would That I would tear my hair out thinking, okay, well, I messed up.
00:26:21
Speaker
Right. I messed up. That tends to not happen at that stage if you've done your work. But earlier, in the earlier stages, when I've got Shane and Daryl and I've got people who are playtesting this, it can really hurt.
00:26:36
Speaker
Yeah. Because it's like, okay, well, now I've realized something that this act one needs to be completely rewritten. Yeah. Yeah. well And the way, act six needs to be completely rewritten too.
00:26:49
Speaker
And again, that's that's a space where... you know, don't, don't take it as a personal attack on your skill. Yeah. Yes. It's frustrating to have to revisit that and rewrite it. And you know, that's cause that's work. It's a lot of work and it's, you know, you, and then, you know, you might not do it right that time. yeah You know, and, but definitely don't, like I said, don't beat yourself up about it. Don't, um don't take it as a criticism about the quality of your work at that stage, at that early stage.
00:27:24
Speaker
It's really more about, does this even make sense? Right. It's not, it's not to say that you, you're a crap writer, just that there's some changes you gotta got to make. It's just trying to make it better. Yeah, exactly. want this to be fun. Right.
00:27:38
Speaker
I want this to be fun. and And, you know... This was going to make it more fun. and And it's all about confidence at a certain point, because the less confident you are, the more sensitive you're going to be to the feedback. Yes.
00:27:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think even, even if you're not confident that that is actually a really good reason
00:28:01
Speaker
seek out that feedback, especially from people who are experienced because you're going to learn a lot. Right. You're, they're going to see things that you haven't, you don't even know to look for yet.
00:28:12
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Um, and, and again, just receive it with appreciation. Like, Oh, Hey, thanks for pointing that out. Yeah, you're right. thank Yeah. Thanks for reading it.
00:28:22
Speaker
Yeah. And that, that, that's just as much for you and your mental health as it is for your relationship with them. Um, because then again, if you're framing it as this is opportunity,
00:28:34
Speaker
you know Then then you're you're setting yourself up to be more receptive to that criticism. Yeah. so So how about, how do you give it?
00:28:48
Speaker
Carefully. Yeah. So to start with... Giving criticism, that is.
Christian's Method of Giving Criticism
00:28:55
Speaker
So I mean i can tell i can say how I do it or how I try to do it,
00:29:00
Speaker
um ah but but it's not universal, I guess. but So the my approach, the way I try to give criticism is... You know, I, I, if I'm not, if I feel like what they're doing is not hitting the mark, then what I'll ask is, you know I'll start with what is it that you're, that you're trying to accomplish with this?
00:29:24
Speaker
Is it about this or is it about, or is this really the point of, of this? So like Jen and I had a conversation just today about something related to campaign cartomancy. She wanted to do a setting rule, uh, like in the sidebar.
00:29:36
Speaker
And, you know, she was telling me about, about the idea. I'm like, well, i said, I, so so tell me why why, you're, you chose to go with this path, with this approach. And she did, she explained, well, I feel like, you know, what I want to evoke is, you know, this feeling of blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, ah, okay, now I understand where you're coming from.
00:29:55
Speaker
And then from there it's, well, like, I see what you're going for. i think I love the idea. i think it could be simplified a bit because it feels like, you know, X, Y, Z, maybe something that's more like this.
00:30:10
Speaker
Right. And then she's like, okay. And she thinks about it and she, you know, she gives her response and i'm like, okay. And then i I learned a little bit more from her about what she's trying to accomplish, you know, and and and we go back and forth. um Now, you know, if it's a form that you're filling out, it's a little bit more difficult because you're not going to have that opportunity for, you know, synchronous discussion.
00:30:32
Speaker
Right. It sounds like you that example is earlier on. Yeah. It's not in a formed set way. Right. That's been thought through already. It's it's your you're building You're building the idea. Right. Exactly. Whereas the feedback is like, okay. I've done all this work.
00:30:50
Speaker
Here it is. It's complete, kind of. Go ahead you know. In the asynchronous format, like where I'm sending a message over, like where I'm posting it in a feedback form or whatever it might be.
00:31:02
Speaker
Um, I try to convey as much as possible what my experience with it was. Right. And, and not in a judgmental or, you know, um, you know, like this sucked, this was terrible. I felt like crap, you know, whatever, but more of I ah found it a little frustrating or I found it confusing, you know, doing X, y and Z or or, or I was a little confused on what was, what the intent of this was.
00:31:28
Speaker
um And i try to not give solutions. I simply try to give what I feel might've been the problem. And then i I let the designer come up with a solution.
00:31:43
Speaker
Right? because because and that Because that's what I would want. I don't want people telling me, do it this way. I want people to tell me why they struggled with it. You know, whether it's a UI or something that a read right or whatever it might be, you know.
00:31:59
Speaker
um Because then i that gives me the opportunity to explore it further and to find whether what they're telling me about is, like I said before, is that ah is that the real problem or is that a symptom of a greater problem?
00:32:15
Speaker
i like i I don't mind, um ah especially especially people that I've got a relationship with that I trust, I don't mind them giving me possible solutions.
00:32:29
Speaker
As long as they understand, that's not necessarily what I'm going to do. But, you know, Daryl will give me possible solutions all the time. And and and i I embrace them because he knows that I'll do what's right.
00:32:43
Speaker
Right. That I'll do what I think is right. But I value those suggestions because I'm like, ah, that gives me something to think about. This is what what he thinks may be the problem.
00:32:54
Speaker
and It's illustrative to me. And he might be right. you know I think the reason why that works and why why I agree with you on that is is because um in that context, just like when I was talking with Jen, we were both understanding what we're trying to accomplish.
00:33:12
Speaker
Right. And so that there's, there's whether it's asynchronous or synchronous, there's a back and forth to some degree. Or like in Daryl's context, he already knows what you're trying to accomplish. And so his offering of solutions is with with that information you know already held. Whereas if I'm looking at something that's like Pathfinder for Savage Worlds, I don't necessarily know what the design intention was for a given specific thing.
00:33:42
Speaker
So I'd rather say, you know, oh you know, this is, this seemed a little confusing or I felt like this might be a little bit weak, but I'm not sure if that's intentional. And I let them like determine whether, oh yeah, I know you're right. Or, oh yeah, we should do this and that. Or no, that's, that's intentional, you know, but yeah.
00:34:02
Speaker
We see why it feels that way. So maybe we need to make an adjustment over here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it really, it it really is sort of a go by feel thing. Yeah. Because there's been, recently I was asked to look at a, at a sort of mostly finished thing.
00:34:18
Speaker
Yeah. And so some of them I'm like, okay, so. I did what but you were talking about, which is I was confused by this. This seems a little yeah strange to me or whatever. And i sort of explained why I feel like it's strange.
00:34:33
Speaker
um But... There were some that I'm just like, yeah, here's here's the here's my thought about how this would go yeah at the table.
00:34:44
Speaker
Right. right yes here's Here's what I think might happen if you write it like this. You're talking about your experience with it, right? Or what you think your experience with it might be. Yeah. And then that gives them something to act on.
00:34:55
Speaker
Right. But I also gave them a couple of... A couple of situations, they give them solutions, possible solutions. I didn't this is what you should do. i said, this is what you might do.
00:35:07
Speaker
that This is just an idea. That is so important that you said that because um i do that sometimes with... um um I've done it with feedback on RPG stuff. I've also done it with with bug reports where you know i see ah I see a problem, you know maybe it's in code, right?
00:35:27
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, one possible approach to solving this might be this, but I don't, you know and I'll say, I don't know if that's the best approach, but yeah that's just one. So maybe that's something they're like, oh no, that is the best approach. like Yeah, I'm absolutely going to do it that way.
00:35:38
Speaker
Or like, no, but I see this other bit of code over here that will fix that. Yeah. Sometimes those solutions that you suggest can be illustrative for them to figure out this the real solution.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah, but using the words possible though and might, you know, things like that is important. because Yeah, because I don't know what their intent is. like Right. If it's this, it might be this solution. If it's not that, well, you might want to think about something else. yeah Everything I said before the solutions part, I think might still be valid.
00:36:12
Speaker
Right. And whatever solution you come up with based on that might help. Because because when you're when you're offering that possible solution, that's that's trying to be helpful. Yeah. When you're saying, this is how I would fix or this is how you should fix it, now you're being prescriptive.
00:36:25
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And that gets that doesn't help. Yeah. Yeah. It's less helpful. so a lot of So I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it's it's it is about phrasing and framing. like your I think it is. Like some people will say that' be too impatient for that or i'm I pride myself on giving brutal feedback or whatever. you like your right but that's But that's if you have somebody you you have a rapport with somebody. that's a different That's a very different context. yeah If I am not involved in the project or I don't know the person personally,
00:36:55
Speaker
um I want to be a little bit more sensitive because I don't know how they're going to receive it. I don't know if they're going to think that when I'm saying, oh, you should totally do it this way. You know, they're going to be like, well, who the hell are you?
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah. like Like you don't know what i'm trying to You don't know trying to Right. You know? Yeah. But if it's like. Knowing that. Yeah. As as somebody who's, who's criticized or giving feedback, knowing that you don't know their intent. Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:22
Speaker
I think is important. Yes. yeah Because then you'll, you'll, then you'll approach it more so in a more sensitive way.
Offering Criticism with Sensitivity
00:37:29
Speaker
Right. And you're like, well, you know, one thing you could do is this, or I might do this if it were me, but I'm not sure what you're trying to do here. So maybe this is completely wrong.
00:37:40
Speaker
Yeah. But it might be, it might help jog your, thinking about it or get your mind working in a different direction because I gave you some solution that you didn't think of.
00:37:52
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. So I don't know. I'm not perfect at it because sometimes my initial reactions to things are, Oh, what are you doing? You know, but, but then no, you have to filter through that because it's not your thing.
00:38:10
Speaker
Right. it's their thing. Right. It's, it's, it's, it's if you you could be wrong about whatever you're thinking about it. Yeah. So yeah if you, if you approach it with that mindset, I think you can be kind and still helpful.
00:38:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And and if, and if it is an opportunity where you're directly interacting with the person in real time, like face to face or on a call or whatever, uh, then approach it with curiosity. Yeah. Like, Oh, tell me,
00:38:36
Speaker
Like, what what were you going for here? Because I think it was about this maybe, but I'm not sure. you know, and then they can talk about it and so on. Oh, okay. I see. we Yeah. Like, yeah, that didn't really quite come across or like, oh, I missed that part, you know, whatever it might be.
00:38:51
Speaker
and it And it becomes a dialogue, you know. And even just that, even and when you figure it out and say, oh, I get it now. That makes perfect sense. that That can still cue the designer yes that there might be some way they can clarify somewhere.
00:39:04
Speaker
Right, right. Like, oh, I didn't make this obvious enough. Yeah, right. I can put a little sentence over here right so that people can read it there instead of over here, you Yep, yep.
00:39:16
Speaker
And it's a balance. Sometimes it's just the way it is. Sometimes that's just going to be the way it is. And there's no, there's no need to change it. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we touched on like, you know, going to people like Shane and Daryl and, you know, people who have experience, right.
00:39:34
Speaker
ah They have years, decades of design experience and and problem solving and all these kinds of things. But I think there's also some validity to people who, you know, getting feedback from people who might not have that experience. yeah Because like I said earlier, familiarity breeds blind spots. yeah And so people who don't have that experience or, you know, or or an inexperience generally, you know, they might see something that designers don't see.
00:40:01
Speaker
You know, we might be repeating patterns just because that's how it's always been done. Right. Whereas they might be like, why are you doing it this way? Why not just do this? You know, like, and that can that can be an eye opener.
00:40:14
Speaker
right that's that's you know um ah you know Again, using the analogy of web design, and there are visual patterns that people have used for years in web design.
00:40:25
Speaker
And then when they put it in front of actual usability testing and and users, they're they're like, You're just like, why is this like this? Why can't this be easier or better or whatever, you know?
00:40:36
Speaker
ah You know, mobile design, designing for phones. Like, why does it have to look like, why do I have to pinch and zoom? Why can't it just fit in my phone? Like, oh yeah, I guess we could do that.
00:40:50
Speaker
ah You know, things like that. So, yeah. the Seeking experience, seeking inexperience. Helps in different ways. Yeah. I think. Yeah. If people like I had, I had Booth read the thing. i was just going to ask if you had, if you've had feedback period was over.
00:41:07
Speaker
I was. still paranoid enough that i was like booful you read these books and she did she took her time and she she she you know she pointed out stuff a lot of stuff that's just like oh no that's just savage world she's like what what is surprise i don't understand roll for surprise like stuff like that right i'm like no that's a savage world because she's out of context with the corals right exactly right and that's that's the way it is that's right it's there' there's nothing to be doing yeah yeah and um In that case, it has to be like, read the core rules first, then read.
00:41:40
Speaker
Right. And that's why it's capitalized. That's why it's bolded. Right. Like, it you know, it's like it's referring to a section in another book. Yeah. yeah it is It's that kind of inexperience that I sought.
00:41:52
Speaker
Yeah. And a lot of her notes I didn't do anything with, but a lot of them I did because she would point out things that...
00:42:02
Speaker
um I don't know that to me are obvious, but to her are not. And that's the familiarity, right? Yeah. Like its one of the things that precipitated was Draxel IDs.
00:42:19
Speaker
Yeah. she Her question was, if I have the Draxel ID, can I just. identity thief them? Can i just take their identity and steal their credits and stuff like that? And and I had to actually address that.
00:42:30
Speaker
Right. I had to actually, you know, players will we'll do that. Yeah. Because I'm like Draxel, just because you have a Draxel ID doesn't mean you can steal their identity. Right. And I actually changed the way DCN banking worked based on that.
00:42:45
Speaker
ah Based on her feedback. Yeah. It's a small, stupid little thing that would have been fine. It adds to the the the immersion, right? It does. so It does. For certain people, it will get to the immersion. And Durkuhn was the same way. He was like, what's this? You don't, when you're saying teraflops of memory, that doesn't make any sense.
00:43:07
Speaker
As a coder, Jacoone was like, teraflops is not of memory. Floating point operations per second. That's a measure of speed. And I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. so And and it's it's just my ignorance, right? Do your research, Tracy. God, stupid. But it was one of those things that he pointed out that like, yep, that's a good idea.
00:43:31
Speaker
That's a good call. And I still have time to fix it. So I'll fix it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. know, it doesn't hurt me to fix it. That's great. Yeah. And same, he had a lot of things like that about from a coder's perspective.
00:43:43
Speaker
Right. I'm trying to. make it clear how X-Gear worked and how Draxel's worked and stuff. like Because he's so immersed in He wants to be immersed. Right. Right. And that's that's flattering, right? Because I did enough work that he is immersed, but then he's getting caught up on terms that don't make sense. But that that speaks to what we talked about last time about, you know, when we're talking about genre and being people.
00:44:08
Speaker
connecting with the characters in this world through that familiar familiarity with what we know and extrapolating from there as like, well, this could be possible, you know, as an extension of what, how things work now. Yeah. Right. So that's what he was doing. Right. Yeah. yeah So I changed it to X and there we go.
00:44:26
Speaker
Yeah. But, but it was his, I would never have caught that myself yeah yeah because it was a laziness thing. It was ah it was a ignorance and laziness. Yeah. And that's okay. I can't be expected to do everything right.
00:44:39
Speaker
Question, when Booth had those questions about like, you know what is Surprise? Was that a cue for you to be like, oh, maybe I should do C, you know, Surprise and Savage Worlds? In some cases, yes, it was. Yeah. In some cases, I did that.
00:44:54
Speaker
Like she would point out like, are you shouldn't there be a parentheses around C, X page every time? I'm like, no, but that's an interesting point.
00:45:04
Speaker
Oh, weird. I do that. do Right? so Because there are some times when I'm like, I'm using a parenthesis for something else oh and I'm just making a separate sentence for see this section and in this book. In context, it's yeah, yeah, yeah. Rather than always putting it in parenthesis, see X section in this book or X page in this particular book you're reading or whatever.
00:45:25
Speaker
I was very deliberate in how I referenced things. Yes. Very deliberate to the point where I spent hours making sure I did it consistently. And then Boof came by and says, aren't these supposed to be in parentheses? This is in parentheses in another place. I'm like, yeah, I know. But in that case, I'm using parentheses for something else. It feels weird when you do parentheses and then parentheses again in the same sentence. It's fine this way. But that's when you use the em dash. Yeah. Well, yeah, and I do sometimes. But it was that kind of stuff she would point out. Sometimes I would say no and leave it.
00:46:03
Speaker
And sometimes I would not. yeah Sometimes I would change it because it doesn't hurt anybody right yeah to change it. It's a little clearer now.
00:46:14
Speaker
So that's that's where inexperience helps because when you're immersed in Savage Worlds and you know you know all the things, you know the style guide backwards and forwards or whatever, you're not necessarily going to see it from a perspective of somebody who doesn't know yeah ah the style guide works.
00:46:33
Speaker
I try to follow the the what I call the first reference rule, where whenever I make a first reference to something, um you know, for example, if something is has an abbreviation, right?
00:46:45
Speaker
Or, a you know, like, let's say United States of America, parentheses, USA. I'll, you know, i do that in first reference, for example. Or yeah I'll do the sea, blah, blah, blah, and savage worlds the first time I mentioned that thing.
00:47:00
Speaker
Yeah. um you know, just because of that, because there might be somebody who's new to Savage Worlds. Oh yeah. What is this? Oh yeah. Right. And even if you know, somebody is not new to Savage Worlds, because if you're using a companion as well and you're referencing it, well, what book was that in? Is that the fantasy companion that core rule thing or, you know, whatever it might be. Right.
00:47:20
Speaker
So think that, yeah, just helps everyone. Oh I referenced that L out of on cluster. to the I mean, just so that make it easy. There's no reason not to. No reason. Yeah. No reason.
00:47:31
Speaker
yeah because put it ah you know it I didn't do it. Oh, I don't think I overdid it, but I i did. every You know, every time ah I had a chance to to say, okay, if you want to read more about next interactions, you go here.
00:47:44
Speaker
Right. Because it gets complicated. Yeah. So go read this section. And you need that cross-referencing, you know. Yeah, but you do, especially in PDFs. you People just click on the stupid thing and go to the page directly. Oh, man, is that so helpful, you know. It is, especially you've got Goodreader and you just three finger back to where you were.
00:48:03
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's a good So anyway, that's the kind of stuff that an inexperienced reader will be able to show you that may influence you to fix some things.
00:48:18
Speaker
Right, right. And ah so she she there was more more notes that I did ah incorporate from Booth than didn't, for sure. Nice.
00:48:29
Speaker
But there was a bunch where it's just style guide stuff. yeah She doesn't know the style guide. and then she did I'm not expecting her to know the style guide. That's okay. right That's what Jody's for. Jody knows the style guide. That's why you have an editor.
00:48:40
Speaker
That's right. Exactly. yeah And the style guide is hard to follow even if when you do know it. yeah There's things that I still am like, wait, is the word attributes or just the attributes themselves?
00:48:54
Speaker
Right. I know. then you have to look this stuff up. Right.
Iterative Feedback and Creative Improvements
00:49:00
Speaker
And some of it gets really persnickety, like arcane background stuff. Like is weird scientist capitalized or not?
00:49:07
Speaker
Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Right. You know, is the blessed capitalized not? I think arcane background itself in some cases is uppercase and not in others. Yeah, if it's referencing the arcane background, it's capitalized. If it's referencing the person who does this stuff, it's not.
00:49:25
Speaker
Right. And that gets really persnickety and stupid. Most people don't care. Yeah. But when you're trying to make it right. You want it consistent. Yeah. right you know pull your hair out on this stuff true Anyway, yeah we're we're rambling again.
00:49:43
Speaker
This is why we're going to end this podcast. Enough rambling. Enough rambling. But i do think overall, um you know whether you're whether you're receiving or or giving you know criticism or feedback, try to also make sure it's something that can be acted on.
00:50:00
Speaker
right And it's not just some vague, ambiguous feeling or just, yeah, I think this is boring. yeah Why? What made it boring? right what you know what would you what would What could it include that would make it more exciting?
00:50:20
Speaker
right Or what needs to be removed that would make it more exciting? you know Whatever it might be. Try to give something that that can be acted on. You know, because when you get something that's like, yeah, this is boring or this is um this is just bad, whatever it might be, that that's not helpful.
00:50:35
Speaker
No, it's not. You can't do anything with that. There's also acknowledging the fact that it might be too late for your note to be incorporated. Right. Right. You know, like, okay, yeah you've gotten to this point.
00:50:49
Speaker
You've thought this all through. So sometimes it's just better not to say anything if you feel that way. Sometimes it can be enough to say, look, I know this is already thought through and all this stuff and and maybe too late to change it, but here's what I'm thinking.
00:51:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And it's okay if it's too late to change it. Right. You know? Right. Yeah. But I thought I'd mention it anyway. Oh, also, if you're giving feedback, if you're giving criticism and the person pushes back, there's no reason to get confrontational.
00:51:24
Speaker
There's no reason to get aggressive. There's no reason to take it personally. Just like, just respect it, right? Yeah. You know, they might have their reason. you know, it's their decision in the end. And just be like, okay. Yep.
00:51:35
Speaker
You gave your input. Let them do what they want to do with it. Yeah, and oftentimes when you when you just back off like that, it's still going to stick in their mind. Sometimes they'll ruminate on it and because that that reaction can be...
00:51:53
Speaker
emotional, it can be visceral, right? Yeah. And when you just say, okay, cool, you know, but it doesn't mean they're stopped. They've necessarily stopped thinking about it. Right.
00:52:04
Speaker
Or that they won't act on it later. Right. Right. Because it it may take them a little while. Yeah. it It could even be a thing if somebody else says the same thing and they're like, Oh, okay. No, shoot.
00:52:16
Speaker
Darn. Tracy mentioned that too. So damn it. I guess, I guess I gotta to do something about it. Exactly. Yeah. And, It's okay. Like part of giving feedback is sometimes they're going to do something with it. Sometimes they're not.
00:52:29
Speaker
Right. And sometimes they need time to figure that out. I love that. told Jen like, well, it's your, it's your book. yeah i You know, i I think this, but, you know, it's your book. What you want to put in it you know, what matters.
00:52:46
Speaker
Yeah. And demean it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Anything else? No, I think that's it. And I mean, I'm sure there's more, but. I'm sure we could gamble on.
00:52:58
Speaker
for yeah another hour. but But, you know, it's it's hard. It's hard, as we like to say. We're trying to edit ourselves here. do want to point out... The one big edit is coming.
00:53:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's exactly. The big edit is still... The big edit. It's still one episode away. Yeah. um I do want to point out that Han Cluster does have a pre-order store that's open right now. If you want physical books, BackerKit is still... ah If you go to the BackerKit site,
00:53:25
Speaker
um and or the HungCluster website. You can get to the Backerkit site where you can buy physical stuff that's going to probably ship in February. That's my plan. I've almost got proofs.
00:53:37
Speaker
They should be coming maybe tomorrow, maybe the certainly this week. I'll get plotter proofs and the white blank proofs to show the binding and stuff. I'm very excited about that. I'm going to show pictures. But anyway...
00:53:49
Speaker
Um, drive-thru also is open for business. So all the Honklester stuff on drive-thru RPG is open to the public to buy. And there's a bundle there for like $64.99 or whatever that will get you all of it. So it'll save you a nice good 30% or so.
00:54:08
Speaker
So anyway, just thought I'd mention it. Because I'm here. No, that's exciting. That's really exciting. It is. All right. Well, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community.
00:54:22
Speaker
If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server and it's not going away. Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few along the way.