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Problem #36: Genre
113 Plays2 days ago
This week, Kristian and Tracy meander through the topic of genre, but more specifically, how to facilitate creating the stories you want to tell. Though we use genre as a medium to do that, we also use other tropes, mechanics, and even expectations (whether we meet them or subvert them) to not just tell, but SHOW our players and their heroes what our game is all about.
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Topic
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this mishmash of a mashup, and this week we're going to talk about problem 36, Genre.
00:00:43
Speaker
talked a lot about
Influence of Genre in RPG Writing
00:00:44
Speaker
like writing adventures, creating, you know, your your your your setting, your idea, the what if concept. But sometimes we just want to really explore a genre that we love.
00:00:55
Speaker
yeah I mean, that's why the companions exist, for example. Right. We got the sci-fi companion, which you leveraged some of for Han Cluster, for example. Right. I leveraged the fantasy companion for everyone for Savage Worlds and so on and so forth.
00:01:11
Speaker
I actually influenced the sci-fi companion because of On Cluster 2. That's even better. Shane, no, no, don't that. No, no, no, don't do that. Do something better, especially with robots. I was very vocal about robots nice with the sci-fi companion.
00:01:26
Speaker
That's really cool. That's really, really cool. Yeah. I feel like that's a story you should share sometime. oh Well, I mean, how much influence I had, I don't know, but I i certainly had my opinions and they definitely listened. so That's cool.
00:01:38
Speaker
That's really cool. Yeah. Awesome. So yeah, ah you know, like we we want to explore genre. We want to do our version of this genre and there's all sorts of, ah whether we realize or not, I think there's a lot of complexities that go along with that.
Choosing and Defining Genre
00:01:55
Speaker
Namely because ah genre, whatever genre you choose can mean different things to different people. Right. And so we're going to explore a little bit about how to,
00:02:06
Speaker
You know, like, how do you hone in on what things you want to focus on? and and And then even getting into, you know, how do you present that? Right. Yeah. um Do you have any any starting thoughts of your own?
00:02:18
Speaker
Well, um I think that we're going to talk about not only genres in the terms of fantasy and sci-fi and supers and westerns and historical games and cyberpunk and horror and all that other stuff.
00:02:30
Speaker
Like we can talk about that. Right. But I think a more interesting discussion is to talk about theme and what our intentions are. And ah this can be both, this can be as deep or as shallow as you want it to be, right? For some people, really, all they want is a cool game where they can have power armor and fight against bad guys, you know? Like, that's a theme on its own.
00:02:57
Speaker
And that's totally cool, right? For others, theme can be more complex and subtle and ah multilayered, right?
00:03:08
Speaker
And genre plays a part in that. And it's I find it fascinating in what genres we choose based on the themes we want to explore, right? And I think that's going to be the bulk of our discussion because...
00:03:23
Speaker
We all know what the genres
Why Creators Choose Specific Genres
00:03:25
Speaker
are. We all know, you know, what it means to choose one or or like we've we've had those discussions before. But I think theme as it relates to genre is a more interesting discussion as from a design point of view, like something to think about that you may not think about normally.
00:03:44
Speaker
So that's that's my intro, or at least what I think we're going to talk about. Who knows? you never know where we might go. Yeah, we might we might meander a bit. but But yeah, to and and to echo what Tracy was saying, we're not looking to like define what are all these different genres, but just really conceptually, how do we approach ah genre, whatever it may be that you choose?
00:04:04
Speaker
um So you know i think an interesting thing to start with is... um you know like why Why do we choose a particular genre?
00:04:15
Speaker
yeah What is it about it that ah so compelling that we're like, you know despite all the plethora of options that are already available... That we want to do our take on it.
00:04:27
Speaker
You know, we, we, there's, there's something that we want to express, you know, ah about our passion or our love for that genre. Yeah. And maybe it's a specific kind of story that we want to tell.
00:04:40
Speaker
um Maybe it's, maybe it's a, know, we see a gap, you know, everybody does it this way, but I want to see like you with, I want a sci-fi future setting that's hopeful, not grim and bleak.
00:04:53
Speaker
Right. Right. Right. um So i mean you know I know we've talked about this ad nauseum about you know why you wanted that, but but just for the purpose of this topic, you know the kind of kind of touch on a little bit of that, um of why it was so compelling for you to have that versus just doing this homebrew thing or whatever. Yeah.
00:05:13
Speaker
I think, you know like i so like we've said, i think it really all depends on what kind of stories you want to tell. And for some people, those stories are simple. For some people, we just want to explore a world that that we think is cool, that speaks to us, you know that is like, ah, you know, this is this is fascinating to me or this is the world I want to explore or the world I want to live in or whatever.
00:05:38
Speaker
yeah um and that and that can be it. That can be all there is to it. um
Essential Sci-Fi Elements in Han Cluster
00:05:44
Speaker
for me it's tends to be more layered than that but whether i like it or not i i have a hard time doing simple and i've i've done it but my tendency is to is to not is to do something more than that and so if i was to to And I don't think I've talked touched on this much with Han Cluster why I chose sci-fi, right?
00:06:11
Speaker
Yeah, i was curious about that. Why that genre? There was a point at which I thought about doing Han Cluster as fantasy. And that's not off the table, actually.
00:06:22
Speaker
Because...
00:06:26
Speaker
You know, fantasy, as and this is why it's so popular in role-playing, is it gives you everything that you want that's away from the real world, right? so So it it it first of all, it takes away the ubiquitous problem. We'll talk about this in ah in a little while, of cell phones and being connected to everybody and like...
00:06:51
Speaker
The danger aspect is gone in the modern world in the way that we usually think about it. Right. Right. So fantasy allows you to go back to the, you know, I'm carrying a sword around and I'm not connected to everybody or, you know, in the the whole world.
00:07:07
Speaker
Worldwide internet does not ah is not a thing. right And so um it can be a dangerous world. It can be something that i that I need to carry a sword around for, that need to carry a shield around for, that I can wield magic for.
00:07:22
Speaker
like that's that's a That's an avenue toward adventure. right yeah You don't have the world's knowledge at your fingertips. Yeah. Right. right yeah And it's a dangerous world. And so there's a reason to band together and protect each other and be heroes and all that stuff. That's why fantasy is so popular.
00:07:39
Speaker
yeah You can do in other genres. It just takes a little bit more effort. And um i i thought about OnCluster for Fantasy because of all that, because of Of not having this technology that's constant around us and having this, having X bonding in a world where you don't have cell phones.
00:08:05
Speaker
Yeah. Right. That's super interesting, actually. <unk>s powerful And yeah. And, and it's, it, it's a different way of exploring what Han Cluster explores, but ultimately I wanted sci-fi because I wanted to explore a hopeful future.
00:08:25
Speaker
Yes. Right. Not an alternative universe. Right. I wanted sci-fi because I wanted to start with our world today go 600 years in the future. Right. And i I think that's a unique enough combination that there you know has value.
00:08:38
Speaker
Whereas the whole like, you know, optimistic, hopeful fantasy thing. I mean, that's what Tolkien was, right? Like it was always about hope. The entire story is about hope. And on the edge of a knife. And it's very influential to Han Kloster.
00:08:53
Speaker
Yeah. Honklycer is on the edge of a knife when you get down to the dangers that you're facing. Right. But ultimately you have a band of people who were good or working with you.
00:09:05
Speaker
You know what I mean? That's, that's Tolkien. That's the way Tolkien handled those things. Yeah. So, so when you decided to go with sci-fi, right, then you're like, okay, I need to make this sci-fi.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah. How do you, you know, what how did you define for yourself and for the setting what will make it sci-fi? Other than just, you know, there's obvious things, space travel, you know, stuff like that. But space travel could just as you know be as simple or or could be replaceable by like, you know, sea travel, right? Or airship travel on a fantasy setting. So so what are what are some of the things that you're like, these are the elements of sci-fi that I need to incorporate and focus on to make this sci-fi?
00:09:47
Speaker
So it wasn't just about the things that I did with Honkloster that are specific to what I wanted to do, which is connection and exploring all that. But what i was also attractive to me about sci-fi is the sense of wonder, the sense of discovery, of exploration,
00:10:08
Speaker
of ah and and of making it feel like we're doing this to... We relate to the humans that we see around us because we they've already been where we are.
Fantasy vs. Sci-Fi: Reality and Plausibility
00:10:22
Speaker
Meaning, you know, we have technology now. We have the way our modern world works now. And now we take that into the future And we can so we can have this amazing kind of connection to the people of the future because they're still human. They're still dealing with their same sort of human problems. Yeah. But they're discovering new things.
00:10:44
Speaker
So we can look and know – we as ourselves in the modern world can say, what if the next – we discovered the next. Yeah, yeah. if there's this amazing thing in space that we didn't know about?
00:10:58
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And the wonder of sci-fi is captured already by the wonder of physics these days. The the the discoveries and stuff that are being made these days are in mind-blowing.
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah. Mind-blowing. And they're there they're stranger than you can possibly imagine. And so that gives me that that like license to say, well, what if the next does exist? What if it could exist? but Is it plausible? you know So it it connects this this sense of plausibility to it.
00:11:40
Speaker
Whereas if it's magic in the fantasy realm, It doesn't connect quite as simply and easily. Yeah, it's very hand wavy. Right? it's It's like, well, there's it's just magic.
00:11:52
Speaker
Right. It's a different dimension or a different universe. It's it's a different time. a different it's it's It's separated from us. And in in that sense, that's very appealing to a lot of people.
00:12:03
Speaker
Right. But to me, I want it to be closer. i want I want that wonder to be me, Tracy, the wonder of sci-fi, the wonder of what could be out there, as opposed to the wonder of let's make an alternative universe where magic exists. Right.
00:12:23
Speaker
Yeah, like the next could could imaginably be a layer of some quantum theory. Exactly. Right? Like, yeah. It's possible. The whole way it works and the logic of it, I tried to base in some sort of theoretical possibility.
00:12:42
Speaker
Yeah. Right? Yeah. Maybe, maybe not. But it does. I'm telling you, the stuff out there these days is stranger than you can imagine. Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I just read, I think it was a week or so ago, quantum teleportation was achieved. Yeah. Yeah. Right. like oh And the way quantum computers work and, and what they're discovering about black holes and what a singularity actually is. And it's, it's, it's insane. Yeah. And that's real.
00:13:09
Speaker
Like these things are real as to the best of our knowledge, these things are real. And so I wanted to explore yeah the wonder of taking that into the future. And the fun thing, not to keep dwelling deep into into this topic, but the fun thing about science is that it can change.
00:13:27
Speaker
Like everything we understand today can change tomorrow. Yep. And so that gives some, like you said, some license to you know to extrapolate or imagine or what if away the things. and what we already know can still work.
00:13:42
Speaker
Could still work, yeah. But once we've, like Newton's theories of gravity all work, but when Einstein came comes along, It doesn't invalidate what Newton did, right but it does completely change what Newton thought.
00:13:55
Speaker
Right. Right. And that's that's fascinating to me in the sense that we might know things now and understand things in a way that that hints at a deeper thing.
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah. Let's imagine what those deeper things could lead to. Right. that's That's what I wanted. I wanted a sense of wonder. Right. Not a sense of this is impossible.
00:14:17
Speaker
this is This is a magic thing. Yeah, yeah. But a sense of, well, how does faster than light travel work in the Han cluster? i don't I don't hand wave it. I say this is next related.
00:14:31
Speaker
Right. You know, like there's reasons for almost everything. And I try to be logical about it, even though it's fiction. I know it's fiction. Yeah. But then you're creating a world that makes sense.
00:14:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Trying for plausibility. Right. At least extreme plausibility. Right. The plausible impossible, as Disney said it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why i chose sci-fi and that's that's that's what I was looking for. And then to get into the theme stuff, like we can get into that too, but right that's that's why I wanted it to be sci-fi.
00:15:04
Speaker
Right. Right. Yeah. And sci-fi in this case really mattered for the story. it It did for me. Yeah. Especially robots and stuff. And and of course, um you know, ah everyone has basically robots yeah in the same way. You could do that in fantasies. Yeah. It it absolutely works.
00:15:24
Speaker
But I wanted it to be done in a way that was like, well, let's take it from where we are now. AI is this thing right now. Yeah. Right. what what if What if I take a positive spin on what happens in the future? Right.
00:15:38
Speaker
Yeah, because like in fantasy, even with Warforged, let's say Emberon, there's all the discussions and themes of, you know do they have souls? And yeah you yes, there's there's some type of soul. they They're self-aware, they're sentient. you know ah They feel pain.
00:15:56
Speaker
you know they're not They don't just follow instructions and programming. They have independent thought. They have dreams, not dreams in the literal sense, but aspirations, right? All those kinds of things. And, um you know, but the how, to your point, is very, or or even the why, because nobody understands why they exist or why they're able to be this way.
00:16:19
Speaker
But in sci-fi and in your setting, you're you're able to explain that. I'm able to give you a ah possible reason. like Yeah. in In as much as we understand black holes right now, we don't.
00:16:32
Speaker
Right. But the same reason is we don't understand why robots have linked to the next and what that means. Right. We don't know. Right. We don't know. But they are and they are we do understand why.
00:16:45
Speaker
the These forms of artificial intelligence have evolved to have you know independent agency and whatnot. right like that's it It's a chicken and the egg thing.
00:16:58
Speaker
Right. Right. Is it because of the next or is it because they've evolved to the point where they can link to the next? Right. It's plausible though. We don't know. Yeah, it's plausible. It's not just magic.
00:17:08
Speaker
No, it's not just, I mean, I'm not poo-pooing it. I'm not poo-pooing it. But that's that's why i wanted it. Because I wanted a relation back to us, back to us today. Right, right.
00:17:19
Speaker
You know, to say, what if? Rather than, what if in it in a sense of, let's let's divorce ou ourselves from reality completely. Yeah. You know. So, I don't know.
00:17:30
Speaker
I don't want to poo-poo fantasy because I still... Oh, no, no. I don't see it as as poo-pooing
Mixing Genres for Unique Settings
00:17:34
Speaker
fantasy. Because i mean because even that, you know you can always explore the why... you know let's you know Using Warforged again as the example. yeah That in and of itself can be a thing to explore.
00:17:43
Speaker
yeah you know Discover why this happened and how. And i like i I've made up my own versions of that for Warforged and used it in my stories. you know so Now, I also...
00:17:56
Speaker
Kind of interesting, you know, speaking about Eberron is the the mixing of genres, right? Where, you know, it's got noir, it's got fantasy, obviously. ye Noir as well.
00:18:08
Speaker
Pulp as well. You don't necessarily use all of them. You may use all of them together. ah You might focus on, you know, more on noir, more on pulp action. Or more on traditional fantasy dungeon crawling or something in between, right?
00:18:21
Speaker
um So i that was actually one of the things that i fell in love with, with Eberron. I loved that pulp action. I loved that noir intrigue. kind of thing uh is that something that appeals to you whether it's a setting that you've you know somebody else's setting that you've enjoyed or something that you try to maybe bring into han cluster or other works that you've worked on mean the mixing mixing yeah saying i like this about sci-fi and i like this about fantasy i want to mash these two concepts together or whatever it might be
00:18:53
Speaker
Yeah, i I mean, for sure, you know, because um I try not to be reductionist, right? I try not to be cynical and reductionist because it drives me crazy when people do that. yeah it's It's like, well, this is just this.
00:19:08
Speaker
With blah, blah, blah. This is just this with blah, blah. That's fantasy with robots. you know Right. it's it's I hate it yeah because it it's... um It devalues the work that went into it.
00:19:21
Speaker
Yeah, it devalues the work. It devalues the enjoyment of it. It takes what people love about it and then – and sort of – feels like it's trying to to crush it down into component pieces in a way that um maybe suggests that it's not more than its pieces. Yeah.
00:19:43
Speaker
And I think generally they are more than their pieces. No, and I also feel like sometimes when people do that, it's their way of trying to feel witty and smart.
00:19:54
Speaker
And it's like, well, no, the wittier and smarter thing would be to break it out into its complexities and not just hit it with a broad brush and say, yeah, it's just this with that, you know.
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's there's there's a level of trying to be clever there, I think. But yeah I kind of like, Boof does this too, a little bit. to like sh She'll watch a movie and she'll she'll have this bird's eye view all the time. And she'll be like, well, this is this and this is this. Can you see the product placement?
00:20:25
Speaker
You know, oh yeah like all this stuff. And I'm just like, no, I'm just watching the movie. Just watching the movie. I'm completely immersed in the movie. Right. And what you're doing is something I never do. Yeah.
00:20:36
Speaker
Even when I've watched it 300 times, yeah I'm just watching it. I do. I'm in the middle. I do both. i I'll watch it first just to be in it. And then, the the you know, if I watch it after that, then I start.
00:20:47
Speaker
seeing things like, oh yeah, product placement or, you know, uh, cow, what was the inconsistencies is my favorite sport. Finding inconsistencies. Yeah. The, the, the, what is it called?
00:21:01
Speaker
Continuity. Continuity errors. Yeah. Right. And some of those drive me crazy because it's like, I'm just, i just want to ignore those. Yeah. You know, you know what I mean? But there's a couple that,
00:21:15
Speaker
there's a couple in a There's a particular movie that i I see it and I go, did they mean that? Right. is yeah you know i'm not sure i'm not sure but yeah but ah but somebody else would just say no it's a continuity error and for me it's like well is it is there is it not you know is there intent behind that yeah yeah yeah know yeah but anyway i that's that but what is your like we've talked about ever on a little what would you call explorer what is explorer's genre
00:21:48
Speaker
So, uh, explorer genre is definitely, leaning heavy into, pulp exploration, um with, I'm going to, I'm going to do the oversimplification thing, pulp exploration with magic.
00:22:03
Speaker
Um, but also, you you and your party, your people coming from a world of sci-fi and being and being thrust into this world of, you know, magic and exploring the wilds.
00:22:19
Speaker
um And and that was that's a mashup concept, right? We wanted to have... um We wanted magic to be, that was the core thing we wanted. We wanted magic to be something that was ubiquitous, um not necessarily industrialized yet, but but applied practically.
00:22:39
Speaker
um you know Imagine like you know indigenous peoples you know pre um you know pre-colonization,
00:22:50
Speaker
you know living off the land in a balanced way, that kind of thing. um but also still remembering what they lost you know the advances that they had and and what they lost and the struggles of having to start from scratch basically um yeah that's that's what we were aiming for um so so not so much fantasy in the sense of like Like we don't get into like, oh there's wizards and dragons and things like that. But but the the um the the mystery of magic is there.
00:23:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's, we've come from a high-tech world and now we're back into a low-tech world with magic. Yeah.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yep. And so, you know, and that was that was because those were genres we loved. The other major theme... was we didn't want to do another setting where it's you know man versus man, you know where it's like, let's go kill these monsters because they're inherently evil and it's okay to just slaughter them all. or they have resources we want and need, we're going to fight them for it, you know or you know whatever it might be.
00:24:04
Speaker
ah We really wanted it to be more about how do we as a people survive in this world and how do we work together to do that? know I feel like that's kind of refreshing for an RPG setting.
00:24:18
Speaker
I don't know that I've really seen a lot of that. There might be something out there. I'm sure there is, but I don't see a lot of that usually. It's because fighting is easier. Fighting is easier, right? Like combat is the point. yeah Combat is easier.
00:24:30
Speaker
Right. Right. You know, so we're we're looking to leverage things like, you know, dramatic tasks and and things like that as you know quick encounters or whatever, as the, ah you know, the vehicle for challenges.
00:24:43
Speaker
no And, you know, that might not appeal to some people. Some people really want their combat. They want to be able to kick ass and take names. And there's some combat, you know, you got to fight some of the creatures that are trying to eat you.
00:24:55
Speaker
You know, there's that. yeah. yeah So how did genre play into your intention to explore some of those themes? Like you wanted um this fish out of water feeling.
00:25:11
Speaker
Yes. Yeah.
00:25:15
Speaker
Was there ever a consideration of doing that in another way or was it always this way? It was not always this way. it's This way is where we landed in trying to figure out how we could get what we wanted out of it. And so it you know it started with, ah again, we wanted a world where magic was ubiquitous.
00:25:36
Speaker
We wanted exploration being like a major, if not the major component of of what you're doing in the world. Mm-hmm.
Community-Driven Exploration in RPGs
00:25:45
Speaker
um and it And it was like, oh, let's go to the dark continent and explore the ruins there. And then I was like, I don't want to fight the indigenous peoples, you know, to raid their sacred temples and stuff. yeah And that's when we said, okay, well, what if what if those people didn't exist anymore? What if this was more archaeological, right? Or what if this was more, you know, we're surviving in this jungle rather than fighting the people that live there.
00:26:12
Speaker
Yeah. And so so it through those thought exercises of how can we do this without it turning into that thing, that's how we landed where we were. We didn't start with very, you know, it wasn't a concrete thing at the very beginning. It's just like, well, what if this? And then what if that? Well, we don't want to do that. Okay. Well, what if it was this instead?
00:26:33
Speaker
you know And that's so that's where that's how we landed there. And then in the end, we we sat back and we looked at it and we' we're like, that's kind of cool. You know, like, yeah, we we should we should, let's do this. And that's where we're at like this is this is where This is where I find this this interesting. is yes How do you plan to leverage your mechanics and setting rules and i suppose adventure types yeah to explore these themes.
00:27:07
Speaker
Like how do you plan to show the players or show the heroes what you're trying to express through the things that they do, through the mechanics that you have presented and said, okay, this is how this works.
00:27:24
Speaker
Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I've thought a lot about this with Honkluster, right? but But I'm curious, how how do you plan to do it? We took to heart the concept of what do you do in this game?
00:27:40
Speaker
right We really wanted that to be direct and obvious. Exploration is obviously what you do. How are you put in that position is you are starting off as part of, of an expedition team.
00:27:53
Speaker
That's what your party is. You're already an expedition team. fantastic Okay. And that's, that's how it starts, right? Your, your job is to go out and do, you know, and there's other community members that do things like run the, you know, kitchen and farm the land. And, you know, your job is exploring.
00:28:10
Speaker
Sure. And you report back what you find. And are you part of like an organization, an exploration organization of some kind? Yeah, well, har Hearth itself, the home village or whatever, is ah I mean, it's it's not formally organized like and you know in that sense, but but it's like there's there's the the team, I guess, of explorers and they have different, what would be like squads, I guess, going out into different areas and reporting back what they find and you know some help others. you know some Some teams will help another team.
00:28:45
Speaker
ah the first The very first adventure is this one team is missing and your team has been tasked with going to find out what happened to them. Sure. And then that's that's the kickoff. Do you have benefactors? ah the There are there are what what would be the equivalent of elders in Hearth, and they are the ones that are sort of like, um like this i guess, the sponsors in a way. and And all the community members contribute things like resources and such. you know they they there' there's
00:29:17
Speaker
There are the equivalent of artificers, for example, who make gear, you know magical gear for you to use as tools. there are um There are what would be considered wizards, but we call them arcanologists, who are studying the inherent magic that's been discovered.
00:29:33
Speaker
And they're trying to figure out like, okay, well, how does this work? What has happened what are these properties about? And then the artificers take that and they apply it right as technology. um And so all of those things are happening to facilitate this community surviving in this new world.
00:29:50
Speaker
you know it's It's this sort of ecosystem. So that's where the benefactors, I guess, would be. you know it's It's a community all contributing to this. Okay. Yeah. And do you plan on having tables for exploration or is it purely like designed adventures?
00:30:08
Speaker
A little bit of both. We're leaning right now heavily on, well, we're not leaning, we're focusing right now heavily on the Plot Point campaign. We absolutely want to have like savage tales or some random things that can happen while you're traveling.
00:30:24
Speaker
So for example, we're going to use the travel rules and in in the Savage Rules core rules, draw a card, this happens. um And so we want to kind of provide, um i guess, example things yeah that would be happening because it's a very different world than just fantasy or modern world, right?
00:30:45
Speaker
So we want to provide some of those examples. So not not like an exhaustive table of here's random encounters in this type of environment, but you know maybe a little bit more abstracted and you know or something to that effect.
00:30:59
Speaker
um We are considering supplements after the core book and after the plot point where we do maybe expand on some of these things. um you know because we We imagine people will want that.
00:31:11
Speaker
yeah So um yeah. Did I answer? that did. ah yeah so And you're thinking about using, so it's man versus environment mostly.
Impact of Genre on Storytelling
00:31:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:26
Speaker
And is it because, is it the environment is super dangerous? Yes. Yeah, it's wild. It's wild. I never saw the film, um but they but the concept of, um ah what was the Will Smith movie?
00:31:41
Speaker
Was it After Earth? Was that what it was called with that he did with his son? It bombed. no I don't I don't think I've seen it. Yeah. And so it's just this wild planet that's extremely dangerous. And it's you know sci-fi. they They land on this planet. It turns out it's Earth, you know far in the future.
00:31:57
Speaker
not Not to that point where you're going to die, but no it's you know it's like you go into a jungle, right? If you go into a jungle unprepared, it's dangerous. you know it's There's things that that will try to eat you or kill you or poison you. You don't want to kill them? Because that's part of the that's part of it right? It's like...
00:32:16
Speaker
The more dangerous it is the easier it is to get people to work together, right? Yes. Yeah, that's absolutely true. And that's why that's, that is a part of it because it is dangerous. It is. That's not to say that it's not dangerous. It absolutely is dangerous. And that's why you're going out as a party. That's why they send teams out to explore, not individuals. Right.
00:32:35
Speaker
um Because, your york You're going to need that help. you know And the whole point of this is to work together, and to have the cohesiveness built in at the beginning of the campaign, not try to figure it out throughout the campaign.
00:32:51
Speaker
um you know like you You are dependent on your teammates. Like it's not, you can't just go out there and, you know, hot dog it on your own. So, you know what i mean? Like, yeah.
00:33:04
Speaker
Yeah. I just, I'm, ah I'll be curious to see how that, Manifests. Me too. Once you've got like some adventures under your belt and yeah and you're really starting to figure out how this is going to work.
00:33:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Like we outlined the plot point and there are... you know it's it's It's a rough path, so to speak, but we want to make sure that each of the different plot points themselves are um plausible, robust, you know and that that they they make sense to the story. They make sense to you know how you solve these these problems.
00:33:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And that, and that they, they, every plot point, ah you know, has something that contributes to what you're learning about the world and, and, you know, clues and reveals and things like that.
00:34:08
Speaker
And there are mysteries to be solved. There are mysteries to be solved. Right. Right. Like what happened to the people that were here? You know, why, why is all this stuff remaining? And why are we here?
00:34:19
Speaker
You know, that kind of thing. Right. Right. So this is all around about sort of way of, of, of asking the question, does genre matter?
00:34:32
Speaker
I think it does. i Just like for you with Hong cluster, um with the way you wanted to have players and James connect with the people in the world.
00:34:44
Speaker
um And you wanted to have, know, I mean, youre ultimately we're targeting a specific experience, right? And, you know, you didn't go with fantasy because it didn't have, you know, that that connectability in terms of, well, connections, right?
00:35:05
Speaker
Because you are very... you know, separated from, from the, from the rest of the world when you're adventuring and fancy. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, for us, it was, you know, the pulp was the biggest, you know, inspiration in terms of exploration and whatnot.
00:35:22
Speaker
It's the magic aspect, you know, yeah, we started with, we want magic in the world. That was because she and i Jen and I both love settings where people have magic. you know and it's just Whether it's they're secret group of people that have magic or um they're everybody in the world has it right to some extent.
00:35:42
Speaker
We just like that idea. Wouldn't it be cool if we lived in a world where magic could help solve problems? It can also cause problems. so um Just like anything else, any any technology really.
00:35:56
Speaker
um So I think, yeah, i the sci-fi aspect was yeah coming from a world of sci-fi, I guess, if you call it that, was, you know, we want, I don't want to spoil it, but there are elements of like finding balance with these natural resources.
00:36:20
Speaker
know You came from a world that where resources were exploited and you know the environment was falling apart and you know tearing the world apart. Bad things were happening.
00:36:30
Speaker
You were not going to survive on that planet. And then for some reason, you're brought here. It's essentially like a fresh new world, seemingly untouched. And here's a chance to you know to maybe do it right.
00:36:45
Speaker
So yeah, so sci-fi, it it wasn't crucial. It was just more of like a you know, where where are we coming from? Yeah, I think that makes your, that that gives your connection to the players just like Soundcluster does, right? Right.
00:36:57
Speaker
We can say, well, we're an advanced, you know, civilization. We have this stuff. It's just like, it's just like Horizon, right? but Which is yeah very influential to you.
00:37:09
Speaker
So it's like we had all this stuff. Right. understand. what this stuff is and what our modern world is like. And now we're being thrust back into a world that is not that, but also now has magic that we can explore. And so it's it's your way of connecting the players with,
00:37:30
Speaker
To the heroes. Yeah. And there's also elements of, you know Breath of the Wild the and Tears of the Kingdom with that ancient, you know, the Sheikah slate, the towers, all those, you know, all those kinds of things are magical things, right?
Enhancing Genre Themes Through Mechanics
00:37:46
Speaker
um That were borderline technology, right? And same thing and in Tears of the Kingdom where you have the Zonai devices and things like that. Technology that are magical by nature.
00:37:57
Speaker
Right. So yeah. And then, and then the open world, you know, aspect, you know, horizon and all that. And I think, I, I guess, you know, I think that there's elements to all those genres where, where you're trying to connect the players to the heroes. Yeah.
00:38:12
Speaker
um In some way or another. i do, i try to do it. is I do it in supers too. I'm a supers has themes of, Humanity running all over it, you know, and flaws and all that stuff that that that is juxtaposed with superhuman abilities. Right, right.
00:38:34
Speaker
Just because you have fascinating superhuman abilities doesn't mean you're not a flawed individual. Yes. That's what supers is about. Really? and Like, you haven't seen the new Superman movie, but like there's that trailer scene where Lois is interviewing him and he's getting flustered and angry and frustrated by her questions, which are very important questions.
00:38:54
Speaker
Like what you did going into that country and, you know, interacting with that conflict could be seen as a U S attack. Why did you do that? And he's like, people are going to die. Yeah.
00:39:05
Speaker
And that's his conviction, but there's a greater consequence that could arise because of it. Yeah. I saw the movie. I thought it was very good. Yeah. It it really Superman was Superman. Awesome. Which nice. Yeah. We've we've had a bunch of movies where he didn't feel like Superman to me. Yeah. um But this this was really good and it drops you into the middle of it. So you've got to sort of like...
00:39:31
Speaker
<unk> You're sitting there going, okay, what the heck is going on here? And you've got to just like, you've got to go through it. I'm so excited. You've got to figure it out yourself in a way. So cool. I love that. love that. I don't want to spoil it, but what's fascinating is Superman is Superman in the modern world.
00:39:49
Speaker
Right, right. And with modern people. And modern people go in and look at at him going, what's up with this guy? Right. Yeah, and we're exploring his humanity, right? And his struggles as as a person. as a person in in in ah in our world, right basically. Right, right. Which is and is Superman in in our world. Yeah. he's He's confused.
00:40:11
Speaker
So i think I think that speaks to... you know, watching that story to me is what makes Superman fun and not boring. Yeah. Right. um And I think that's also what we need to, I think we've talked about this before. That's, that's what we have to incorporate into the adventures and the stories to make them fun. I think is really drilling it down into, you know, the, how you connect with the people of the world and living through those situations and those circumstances.
00:40:42
Speaker
and and having the outlook that they might have in that world, in that you know situation. Are there any other ways that you try to employ to to have your setting and your adventures be fun and not boring?
00:41:01
Speaker
Oh, yes. You know what I mean? I mean, there's obviously tension and those kinds of things. But as far as just the story itself, That it's interesting and not like, I don't really care about this, you know? Yeah. And that's, that's hard because, you know, you're going to care more about it than anybody else does. Right. Right. Right. As the designer, that's just the way it's going to be.
00:41:22
Speaker
Yeah.
Balancing Challenge and Enjoyment in Gameplay
00:41:23
Speaker
And there's, there's a balancing act there because ah the simpler you make it, the more accessible you're going to make it to others and to players and say, okay, this is simple. We do this.
00:41:37
Speaker
In D&D, we're going to go down to the dungeon. We've got our party. yeah They have their roles. We're going to get some gold out of this, some treasure. We're going to find some traps. We're going to kill some monsters. we're gonna know We know what we're doing.
00:41:50
Speaker
That's simple. right it's It's fun because it's simple and because we all understand. There are expectations and they're being met. When you're trying for more subtlety and stuff, that gets trickier.
00:42:03
Speaker
And the more complex you make it, the riskier it becomes that you're going to lose player attention. Yeah. So it's it's a balancing act. And I had to do that with Han Cluster where I made it simpler as I went.
00:42:18
Speaker
Like I took the time to make it simpler. And that's that's important. But you can take that too far as well. as you As you went through the plot point or as you went through the setting and world building process?
00:42:29
Speaker
As I went through testing the plot point and building the world and figuring out what players were engaging with, what where they were confused by, what um they didn't understand versus what they did, i i made adjustments.
00:42:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. To, to try to make it simpler. Getting that feedback from playtesting people, playtest your stuff. Right. And it wasn't necessarily direct feedback, was just reactions to what they did. yeah Yeah. And, but, but also at the same time, it's easy to go too far.
00:43:03
Speaker
It's easy to simplify it too much or to take away things that are really setting defining. Yeah. And that's, that's the thing about design is, is taking away until you can't anymore without losing, you know, the obviousness of, of what you're supposed to do with this thing.
00:43:22
Speaker
That is kind of, yes. Yeah. There's also the mechanical aspects of it because yeah a lot of designers um get hung up on things being too easy for the players. Yeah.
00:43:37
Speaker
yeah And I get that. I get that. But the more experience you have doing this, and and once you've playtested enough and played enough of this and and done it on both sides of the screen, you you really don't really understand what the player experience even if you've been a player. Yeah.
00:43:58
Speaker
until you hear their frustrations, right? So it's easy to say, I want this to be hard. I want this to be like, you know like yeah I don't want to talk about specific people or a specific game, but there was a part and there was a point in a game I was working on where the designers of the game wanted to have just increasing penalties for things.
00:44:25
Speaker
Right. Right. Make it harder. it It should be hard. This particular aspect of the game should be super hard for people to do. I'm like, yeah, but is that fun? Right. Because if we're just making it to the point where it's a minus six or minus eight penalty, nobody's ever going to do it.
00:44:44
Speaker
So you might as well not even have it in the game. Right. At that point, it's just like if it's Savage Worlds, for example, it's just resource draining your bennies. Yes. Well, even then, it's yeah's just impossible.
00:44:55
Speaker
Right. Like we're looking at minus six every time. We're not going to even going to try. We're going to need to do support roles and this and that. And and if that's the case, that's great.
00:45:06
Speaker
But even then, it's like, okay is this fun or not? Right. Do I feel as a player, do I feel like I get to do the thing? Well, and and the consequence of not succeeding needs to be interesting enough too.
00:45:20
Speaker
Yeah, that that too. Right? like But my thought is, yeah like if you don't want them to do it, let's not put it in. Oh, yeah, yeah. if it's right If this is supposed to be a thing that's not supposed to be achievable, don't have players roll dice.
00:45:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah i just don't put it in. yeah this is not ah This is not an option for you. Right. If you want it to be achievable, if you want corruption or you want some other complication that involved, that there's a consequence of doing this, that's more fun.
00:45:49
Speaker
Right. Then you make it fun. Right. And that gets really tricky because as a designer, it's so easy to just say, I want this to be hard instead of, I want this to be interesting.
00:46:02
Speaker
I remember you telling me about, uh, I think it was a, um,
00:46:08
Speaker
oh Gosh.
00:46:12
Speaker
it It was an adventure for Torg but that I think you wrote. was a con game where the intent of it was to be, this needs to be hard. This is supposed to be really hard. The climbing of Mount Edders. It's called the sta The Steps of the Highest Mountain is what it's called. Right. It's freaking great.
00:46:30
Speaker
but but so But that's a good example of where you can do it in a way where it's hard, but it's interesting and fun. Yes. And the payoff is... is, you know, worth it.
00:46:41
Speaker
Yes. um and And I remember you, you, you explaining to me that it wasn't hard just because, it's just, it should be hard. It was hard because that was an experience that you wanted the players to feel.
00:46:55
Speaker
Yes. You wanted them to feel fatigued yeah by the time they got to the top. Right. yeah And I, like that I think. The gauntlet has been, you know, crossed. Right. And I think that's where something like that can work well. Right.
00:47:08
Speaker
Um, but don't, you know, I guess, i guess what I'm getting at is like, it shouldn't be done just for the sake of, well, this should be hard. It should be, this is the story. Yeah. It's like, well, yes, but if hard is, is you want to make it fun, hard, not impossible hard. Right.
00:47:26
Speaker
Right. And that's tricky. And with Savage Worlds, you know, I've learned a lot about how to do that. Um, but a lot of the newer people, They don't understand what that means. yeah And so, you know, it's, and like we were talking about with Daryl, with the balance between ah player characters, right? That's the important thing here.
00:47:51
Speaker
It's not necessarily how balanced it is against the enemies. You want it to be hard, but interesting, right? But you also want to make sure that one player isn't dominating over all players. Yes, yeah That all players have options of something to do.
00:48:06
Speaker
or have ah highlight. like Yes. I'm great at aristocratic parties. Yes. I'm terrible in a fight. Right. And as long as there's an aristocratic party for that character to shine at, you're doing good. You're doing okay.
00:48:23
Speaker
And for everything else, they can do support roles. ah but ah well, and there's yeah, there's other there's other ways. but But I don't know. I guess my point is fun versus boring.
00:48:35
Speaker
is not always what it seems. No, it's not cut and dry. And it seemed it can seem like, well, this should be mechanically this or mathematically this, right? Right. When at the table, it doesn't feel fair.
00:48:51
Speaker
Well, and and bringing it back to genre, you know, it it should absolutely um offer something that is iconic of that genre. Yeah.
00:49:04
Speaker
Yeah. You know, like like if it's sci-fi, maybe it's navigating through an asteroid field, right? Being chased by, you know, whatever. um If it's, you know, fantasy, you know, maybe it is a an encounter where you're having to climb your way out of, you know, some crevice or whatever, you know, and and it's difficult, right? yeah The rocks are slippery and it's dark and...
00:49:28
Speaker
all these things, you know, you got like weird creatures trying to bite at your heels. There's swarms of weird creatures down there. Right. what's all in there Right. right But falling in there doesn't necessarily have to mean death. Yeah. No, it doesn't. Right. It's just another encounter. Right.
Inspiration from Thematic Board Games
00:49:44
Speaker
But it can scare the hell out of It scare the hell because it's dark and you can't see it, whatever it is. One of the one of the board games that inspires me heavily is is the triad of the Fantasy Flight games, which is...
00:49:58
Speaker
bothings Lord living card game, the Arkham Horror living card game, and the Marvel Champions living card game. They they inspire me to no end. In what ways? Because their themes, yeah so well done, married with the mechanics.
00:50:17
Speaker
I've had moments in those games solo yeah that are higher than any other board game I've ever played. Wow. Because it was thematic. It told a story yeah in the mechanics that it used. Like we're exploring the Antarctic.
00:50:33
Speaker
yeah I'm feeling like, oh my God, I'm dreading ah ah frost token coming out of the chaos bag or whatever. Or you know these treachery cards that come up and they have a title and a theme and a mechanic that makes sense for that theme. yeah And you fail it and there's a consequence and you barely get out alive or you or somebody has to sacrifice themselves for for everybody else to get out or whatever.
00:50:59
Speaker
You feel like a story has been told. And it felt really hard, but it was fun anyway. Right, right. Heavily influenced by those games.
00:51:12
Speaker
That's really cool. And Han Cluster, with all its optimism and all its connection, ultimately there are things you have to do that are extremely hard.
00:51:25
Speaker
And the triumph of going through that and succeeding anyway... is there's nothing like that at all. Nothing like it.
00:51:36
Speaker
Right. You can't, if it's just an easy thing that everybody can do, the triumph is not going to be as sweet. No, it feels mundane, right? Or trivial at that point, if you're not having to fight a little bit for, you know, not just a little bit, but a lot, right? Right. If it doesn't, if the mechanics don't back that up,
00:52:00
Speaker
yes It's really hard to convince people that there's danger. Right. You know, we're getting off the topic, but but that's this is the stuff I think about. Yeah, I think, too, that, um you know, when exploring genre, particularly, you know, specific to Savage Worlds, you know, there are there are things like hindrances, for example, that you can design to incorporate some kind of mechanic that's, you know, part of that genre or, you know, or edges that are available that.
00:52:31
Speaker
allow the player to do something that's iconic of that genre. Um, and so even in what might otherwise seem like a, a mundane encounter, there could still be act actions that are done or, or outcomes that are, you know, genre specific or, or evoking that feeling of that genre.
00:52:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's ah it's interesting. And then, of course, setting rules come into play, right? There's setting rules that they think to think about for exploring a genre. Where the mechanics meat meet the intent, the theme, right?
00:53:07
Speaker
Yeah. of my favorite, favorite ever... examples of what role-playing can do when you successfully achieve this, successfully achieve this danger yeah and this feeling of dread and we're never going to make it with triumph is in Stranger Things.
00:53:27
Speaker
Yes. Yes. When, uh, I forget his name, but the D the, the dungeon master guy who ends up, no spoilers. Um, um, and he's running this game and he said, he's just adversarial as hell, right? He's like, yeah you're going to die. I'm going to roll this D 20 and you don't roll it, you know?
00:53:45
Speaker
And it's, it feels super dangerous. And these kids are just like, we're never going to get past this thing. yeah Ever. We're never going to do it. There are like two characters left. Right. he's just being a hard ass about it. He's like, nope. Roll it. I don't know if you're going to make it.
00:54:05
Speaker
And they do. They triumph. They roll the die and it happens. And at the very end of this, gives me chills every time. They triumph. they so They are, you know, cheering and doing their thing. And he's just silently sort of with them on this.
00:54:22
Speaker
And he says, this is why we play. Yes. Yeah. It's funny. I just, but my my mom was visiting this past week, which is why we didn't record. um And I told her about Stranger Things.
00:54:34
Speaker
And she's like, no, I've never seen it. She binged the entire thing. And I watched, you know, the the final season with her. Or season four, rather. And in that scene, i just like you said, I remember vividly remember watching that scene last week and being like, damn, that is freaking cool. get for chills watching it. I get tears my eyes watching it. And as adversarial as he was, he's also rooting for them. He's rooting for them. He he doesn't want to tell them, but he is. Right, right.
00:55:01
Speaker
He is there to help them have that moment. Right. He is there to facilitate that moment. yeah And facilitating that moment means sometimes making it feel like yeah you can't succeed.
00:55:14
Speaker
Right. And that's that's heavily influential to me. yeah Yeah. Right. That's a really good point. You know, it doest it doesn't have to necessarily be impossible. It just has to feel impossible.
00:55:29
Speaker
Yeah. And trust in the game.
Influence of Popular Culture on RPG Design
00:55:31
Speaker
If you've got a good game that can do it, and Savage Rules is one of those games, I think, yeah because of exploding dice, because of the way it works, the curve of the way it works, you trust the game.
00:55:43
Speaker
Yep. And it will happen. Right. Right. And it's, it's, this is why we play. It's an amazing moment in a show that I love and it gives me chills and makes me cry.
00:55:54
Speaker
Yeah. That is kind of, yeah, that that was such a goosebumps moment in that show. Cause it shows you who he is. And I'm like, ah, now I get to That's when he really get to see the real Eddie Munson.
00:56:08
Speaker
Yes. That's, that's when I became a huge fan of Eddie Munson. Well, there's the whole scene with Chrissy in the, you know, in the woods. Yes. That's, you know. Anyway, don't know that it is what we were talking about, but i but it is one of those philosophical things that I think about a lot that drives me in everything that I do yeah as far as as far as designing for games.
Conclusion and Community Invitation
00:56:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. and and And to kind of tie it to genre specifically is, yeah, think about the movies or TV shows or whatever books you've read that you've watched where you've had those moments where you feel like Lord of the Rings even has that. No, Lord of the Rings is is the ultimate example. Plenty of moments where it's like, oh, they are not going to make it. The quest is on an edge of a knife. Right.
00:56:56
Speaker
Right. And so there's always- No truer words were said. Right. Always, always inspirations to find in in your favorite genres to evoke that feeling, you know, and and keep it fun while challenging.
00:57:10
Speaker
Yes. Anything else? No, i I think that ah that does it. I think we covered it. All right, then. Well, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community.
00:57:24
Speaker
If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server. Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration.
00:57:36
Speaker
Until next time, keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few way.