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Problem #38: Saying Goodbye
160 Plays25 days ago
In our FINAL, extra-long episode, Kristian and Tracy are joined by community member and SWAG author, John Doom, to talk about letting go of your projects once you finish them, and then we answer some questions people had from our discord server. Goodbye everyone! And thanks for listening! The discord server will remain open, so come join us!
Join our discord!: https://discord.gg/Bc9dvuzZYJ
The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
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Transcript
Introduction & Theme of Goodbye
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional well, unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this bittersweet finale.
Guest Introduction: John Doom
00:00:19
Speaker
And this week, we're going to talk about problem 38, goodbye.
00:00:44
Speaker
And joining us for this long goodbye, we have the excellent Mr.
Episode's Focus & Philosophies
00:00:50
Speaker
John Doom, swag author, community leader, and enthusiast. Thank you, John, for joining us for this.
00:00:57
Speaker
No, I'm absolutely glad to be here. We're glad to have you. Yes. So Tracy, what are what are we what are we doing in this goodbye? What are we saying? What are we doing Well, you know, there's a couple of things we're going to
Reflections on RPG Community & Production
00:01:11
Speaker
cover. One is ah that this is the last episode and we're going to say goodbye and sort of wrap up our intention for this podcast and try to reiterate it so that um you all can find use in it in the future and that maybe you can refer it to others in the future because we we really do believe there's a lot of evergreen content here.
Q&A with Discord & Guest Input
00:01:38
Speaker
And ah to sort of reiterate our philosophies about game design, about um RPG community, and about the production aspect and the nitty gritty and all that all that stuff that we've been talking about these last 38 episodes, 37, I suppose.
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah.
Letting Projects Go: Tracy's Experience
00:01:56
Speaker
In addition, we will be answering a few questions from the Discord server and whatever John wants to bring up as ah additional questions or anything that he wants to talk about himself as a swag author and designer himself and get his perspective on things. So it's going to be sort of a grab bag, but we're just going to kind of go where go where the mood takes us.
00:02:22
Speaker
Yeah. I'm gu down with that. I mean, that sounds great to me. So where, where Tracy are your thoughts, uh, with respect to, you know, so to speak, wrapping things up?
Emotional Journey of Project Completion
00:02:37
Speaker
Um, well, I think, I think one of the things that I wanted to to talk about, ah we as designers have to go through, um,
00:02:49
Speaker
at some point with the projects that we do is we have to let them go. And by letting them go, I mean, we have to say, okay i did the thing.
00:03:03
Speaker
i ah did it to the best of my ability and now it's out there and now I have to move on.
Reflective Period After Completion
00:03:12
Speaker
And my experience with that has just really happened yeah because the Holland cluster, you know, I went through years of development of getting this, the you know, getting the first time, ah the the first release finished so that we have a ah bedrock to work from in the future.
00:03:33
Speaker
getting it kickstarted, getting production done or getting it going. And now we're at the point where I, all I can do is wait for the printer to finish.
Future Work & Design Completion
00:03:43
Speaker
Right. And send my final checks. you know that's and And then, of course, ship it out.
00:03:49
Speaker
But really, that's that's that's it. that The design process is mo is done, except for whatever supplemental stuff I do later or whatever additional stuff
Project Completion & Emotional Impact
00:03:59
Speaker
I do later. But that's that in its own way, it's a depressing, bittersweet thing.
00:04:05
Speaker
sad moment for me. And it happens every time I finish something big. And I finished a lot of big things, but it it ah it's it's just this feeling that it's over.
Creation Experience & Character Attachment
00:04:19
Speaker
is it Is it the experience that you're lamenting the loss of, the experience of creation? Or is it the, you know, the it's out of my hands now kind of feeling? I think it's more the experience. It's the day-to-day interaction that I have with it as I'm
Reliving Stories in Campaigns
00:04:36
Speaker
creating it. Yeah. And the care the the the living with those characters in my mind and in my experience living with these stories because I can relive them anytime i want by
Bittersweet Project Completion
00:04:52
Speaker
rereading them. yeah Right. And, and I do, and I will, and I plan to run another online campaign at some point, um, uh, for, for the PPC because I want to relive it and I want to relive it in its final form.
00:05:06
Speaker
You know, because i haven't had to I haven't had a chance to do that yet. But it ah it is a bittersweet moment. It's like a feeling of a great accomplishment. But along with that comes, I'm in a way saying goodbye to Haley Preston.
00:05:21
Speaker
I'm in a way I'm saying goodbye Figgin and to Cheryl Pulse and to all the PCs who have inhabited the world that I created. Right.
00:05:33
Speaker
They're not gone. It's it's going to continue. right yeah But that stage of my involvement is over. Right. the The birthing it into the world, so to speak. Yes. yeah Right. And it's a proud moment, but it's also a sad moment.
00:05:48
Speaker
It's postpartum depression. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's it's not a fair comparison. about but Sure, but yeah. you yeah not Not to trivialize postpartum depression. It's a very real thing, people. so do you feel you two feel that way with the stuff that you've done?
00:06:03
Speaker
John? mean, I don't think... As strongly as that, yes, the quick answer is yes, definitely. but There are things that, as I put my tiny little swag products out into the world and and just hope for the best, hope that people get them to a table and run them.
00:06:21
Speaker
and have a great time. ah i know that it's running differently than it was in my head as I was writing it or as I was play testing it. And you know, you have certain people that inhabit a character very well for you as you're writing, you're kind of writing the character, of the archetype for them, right?
00:06:40
Speaker
You're you saying, oh, you know, this person is is likely going to play, they're going to play Torx. They're going to be fantastic at it. It's not written for them. But it's written for them, you know, in the Han cluster. I don't know what the the robot is called. Oh, you know, like he's torquer robot from Caustics Robotics. Yes, from Caustics. Yes, yes, yes.
00:07:00
Speaker
um So, you know, you do things like that or or the NPCs that you have, like you're mentioning, you know, Fagin, who's the best of all of them. And and then Haley, who's also very good. And I know you're favorite, but, you know, we're allowed to have our favorites. Sure. Lieutenant Collins. I mean, he's unforgettable.
00:07:18
Speaker
Oh, and Bandy. And then, uh, let's not gush too much. I mean, I'm allowed to, I guess a little bit more. So, you know, buddy, buddy is also, that's Booth's favorite.
00:07:28
Speaker
Yeah. And she's not wrong for having that be her favorite because buddy's fantastic. and every time i very much do want and I'm disappointed by my lack of appletinis, uh,
00:07:40
Speaker
whether it be n a or not um but yeah putting something out in the world and then kind of knowing that your part in it is done it's it's uh it's sweet and you know this bittersweet um but it is something i've experienced christian what about you Yeah, I mean, the only i've I've only had two Swag products and then Savage Eberron that I've you know released.
00:08:05
Speaker
i mean i've done I mean, there's other things I've put out, like you know backstory cards for Foundry VTT, but that's you it's not quite what we're talking about here. um So like the swag products, like you said, it's kind of like, you know, you're just putting it out there and you're hoping, you know, it's going to be well received that people are going to, you know, get out of it, what you put into it in a way or or see its value.
00:08:28
Speaker
um The first couple of course, you know, the first one, I mean, so the vulnerability that I felt was like, it was, it was, it was almost crippling.
00:08:40
Speaker
And, um, you know, and if you do a good enough job or, you know, if you do a good job with it, then you, you know, you start seeing the reviews coming in and, you know, people talking about it and and that feels, that felt really good. But yeah, there, is there is a moment of, I need to stop looking at this. This is ready to go.
00:08:56
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I got it. I got to just put it out there. I'm sure there's going be something, some typo going to miss. I'm going feel embarrassed, whatever it is, you know, or some thing I didn't consider mechanically.
00:09:07
Speaker
But yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's kind of like, you just got to let it be free to the world. Yeah. my And i think I think the whole thing is that it's an important, that saying goodbye, that letting it go is a really important part of the process because I think a lot of designers just are clinging to it and stick with it for years and years and years.
00:09:31
Speaker
They never put it out there. They never let it be finished, you know? And I think if you want to be a finisher, if you want to get it out there and in the hands of people so that They can experience what you've created.
00:09:45
Speaker
at some point you have to be ready to say goodbye. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of people probably dive into that problem where they're waiting for it to be perfect. Yeah. They're waiting for the perfect amount of prose or, or that kind of thing. And I think, you know, perfect is definitely the enemy of finishing something. Yes.
00:10:02
Speaker
Well, often it's the enemy of good, you know? Yeah. Right. It'll never be perfect. It can only be finished. Right. The other, the other thing I've run into, and part of the whole, like, okay, I gotta, I gotta to put this out there. i gotta to be done with this.
00:10:16
Speaker
I actually do get impatient, um, with working on it for so long. I'm like, I just want to be done with this. It's exhausting. It's, oh yeah and, um, you know, but I don't want to, you know, I take the time though, because I don't want to rush it. I don't want to make mistakes. So there's this weird duality that's happening, yeah you know, where you're like, you know, i um I feel like I'm rushing it. I should pay more attention to it and spend more time on it. And then you're like, No, you just need to let it go.
00:10:40
Speaker
Yeah. Are we doing this again? Are we really ah we really going to revisit this again? And and I do this and sometimes sometimes I go too far with it.
00:10:51
Speaker
But at the same time, I'm almost always grateful that I did take that time. Yeah. Because i do have enough energy to do it and to to revisit it and to fix some of those last minute things that I've been kicking kicking the can down the road for so long.
00:11:10
Speaker
Like, okay, now's the time I can fix this. And it's never going to be perfect. It never will be. No, just published. Just published. And the point of saying goodbye is so you can move on to something else.
00:11:23
Speaker
Whether it's another product or just saying goodbye to it so you can do something fun for a while. Right. Or turn off your brain for while.
00:11:34
Speaker
Exactly. so To rejuvenate. I think the other thing to keep in mind is that somebody there is going to find something. It doesn't matter how much time you spend on it. doesn't matter if it is in fact perfect.
00:11:46
Speaker
somebody's going to find something to complain about or say, Oh, I would have done it this way. Or why did you do it that way? Or, you know, this is confusing and you know, whatever it might be, um there's always going to be something. So you just got to kind of have to accept that and be okay with it and just be like, meh.
00:12:05
Speaker
Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's done. That's so true. I think the one nice thing about writing like the smaller swag products is that if someone does find something, it's a quick fix. And post like, you just repost it.
00:12:17
Speaker
It's already, already fixed. I know it's different when you're like releasing a physical book, like, yeah like Tracy you're doing, when, when, when Shane and company release these, you know, these giant box sets, if something's wrong and, and, you know, the, uh,
00:12:32
Speaker
the The spine has the letters offset like a half inch down. Poor Simon. Poor, poor Simon. I mean, that that's brutal. You don't want that. No, no. And so I did take the extra time.
00:12:45
Speaker
i mean, yeah there's going to be something. i There's going to be something wrong. But I really, because I knew this was going to go into print and at least 500 books of each book, I have to get this as right as I can. Right.
00:13:02
Speaker
And because I'm going to kick myself if I find something that's just glaring yeah that shouldn't be there. Tracy and I have actually debated you know whether our p the RPG industry should just go digital in the future.
00:13:16
Speaker
And one of my arguments is is the fact that, well, you can always fix it. you know And you can't do that with print. So I actually have a question for you guys. It's i mean that's kind of related to this.
00:13:27
Speaker
And... What would you, if you could impress upon like game designers, what would you say to them? So when they're they're creating something like this or they're trying to release something like this and get it out into the wild and do their final goodbyes, what's the thing that, you know, you you might want to say to them to let them know, you know, Hey, it's okay. Or what, what steps they can take? Well, what I, what I would say is you can only do as you can only do as well as you can do in that moment.
00:13:56
Speaker
In the future, you may do it better. In the future, you may have learned things that that you don't know yet. and you And you can probably do it better. But for now, in this moment, this is the best I can do.
00:14:11
Speaker
That's good enough. Yeah. And I mean, that's how i tell, that's what I tell myself is that, okay, on cluster, it's not perfect. I know there are a lot of people who could probably do it a lot better than I did it, but for what I'm able to do, I have put my absolute all into this and it is the best thing that I can do right now.
00:14:35
Speaker
Right. And maybe a year from now I would do it differently, but that's okay. I think like in any any other endeavor, you develop skills over time, right? You're going to hone that skill over time.
00:14:48
Speaker
And and the your first attempt isn't going there's going to be a lot of things you'll go back and probably critique years down the line and be like, oh, wow. You might even think it's absolutely terrible. There's another Discord server I was on where somebody mentioned um and that they they got a new camera and they're looking to get into photography.
00:15:07
Speaker
And then there was and somebody else responded, like, who's a photographer, you know. And and I had – way back when I wanted to be a photojournalist, so you know, I did some photography classes and stuff. And um so we were talking about it. now And she was nervous. She's like, oh, you know, I know I have this tech, but, you know, am i good enough? And were both like, – you know, you're, you're going to learn, you're going to start seeing things over time that you probably would have never noticed before.
00:15:34
Speaker
You're going to notice details out in the world that, you know, because now you're thinking about how would you take this photo, you know, you're, you're going to look back at your photos even, and you're going to be like, Oh, i should have done this or I would ah I wish I had done that.
00:15:48
Speaker
And that's okay. Like that's, you know, the whole point of it is to evolve. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, you know, and, and it's, and it is a unto itself is a fascinating journey.
00:16:01
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and, and, and I think there's, there's value in that experience of seeing yourself grow. Um, and, and just don't beat yourself up when you do look back and you see those things that you're like, Oh, you know, it's, it's not cringy. It's just lack of experience and lack of skill that you didn't have yet, but you have now.
00:16:21
Speaker
There's also a danger in looking too much for advice online or looking at the experts talking in Reddit, you know, Reddit groups. Podcasts.
00:16:34
Speaker
Discord servers or podcasts like ours. I really do. I think there's a danger in doing too much of that because you end up in an echo chamber of supposed experts telling you what to do.
00:16:49
Speaker
Yeah. where you are not allowing yourself to discover it for yourself. And that's true of getting better at ah ah playing a game, a board game that's difficult or or designing a thing or getting better at the piano or doing whatever endeavor you're trying to get better at.
00:17:10
Speaker
When you start to end up in this echo chamber of supposed experts who tell you all different things about how to do these things. All of a sudden, you're you're yeah like stuck in the the muck because you don't know which way to go.
00:17:26
Speaker
And really, the only way to go is to create the stuff anyway. And to discover it on your own because it's the only way to have your own voice. It's your only way to create your own style that is independent of these people who you may admire, but you may surpass.
00:17:44
Speaker
if you If you can get out of the muck long enough to just create it on your own and learn learn learn your own way. That's the fun part. Yeah. And, and we've, we've talked about this on past episodes about, um, you know, sometimes you'll get feedback and the person's like well, I think you should really, really do it this way. And for these reasons, and it's like, you don't know how much I've gone through different iterations. You don't know what my specific intent is.
00:18:13
Speaker
You know, like I, I, I get what you're saying, But, you know, I disagree and that's not what I was aiming for. And I understand that, you know, that that might be a cool way to do it, but that's not the the feeling I wanted out of this, you know?
00:18:26
Speaker
Yeah. um You know, the the basic example I give all the time is like, people were like, why don't you just use the tinker from the fantasy companion for the artificer? I'm like, because that's not what an artificer is in my, in everyone as I know it, as I've learned about it and,
00:18:40
Speaker
back in the three, five days, that's not what an artificer is. That's not what they're doing. And, and that's what I was trying to reproduce, a you know? And so, you know, have your convictions, right? Have the things that you're going to, you know, this is how you want it. This is what your, your goal is.
00:19:01
Speaker
Don't be afraid to stand by it, you know, and, and and stand behind it, you know? Yeah. That's super hard, especially when you're surrounded by people you admire. Yeah, you question it. You're like, oh, maybe they're right. And, you know, yeah, this is maybe this is too, too simplified or too complicated or whatever. But ah but ultimately play test it.
00:19:20
Speaker
You'll find out. You'll find out if it's working or not when you play test. so Yeah, because otherwise, and yeah I think you're right. It'll send you on a journey of of of looking for the tips and tricks. Right. I'll send you on the journey of trying to find that one thing that someone else does that that made their product really good or or this or that. When when really it just comes down to getting out there and clicking publish. Yeah.
00:19:45
Speaker
You know, knowing that the first step to being sort of good at something is sucking at something to. You quote, adventure time. Another misquoted. Another analogy I like to give is, is ah this is an experience I had at a previous job where they were they wanted to design new website, small website.
00:20:01
Speaker
And they were looking at all the other universities, you know, in this specific type of department and what their websites look like. And like, oh, we want to do this. and We want to do that. And there was this one site that they were looking at. And it was like, they had a search button.
00:20:13
Speaker
You click the search button. It takes you to a page where then there's a search box. And then there you put in your search query and they're like yeah we want to do that. And i'm like, why do you want to do that? Well, they do that. And I'm like, I guarantee you the reason why they did that is probably because they had a limitation and that was the only way they could do it.
00:20:31
Speaker
And they did that to solve the problem that they had. Don't like that's, you know, that's not a solution for any problem that you have. Yeah. There's no reason to have it that way, you know, and and, and not only that, but when you're looking at other works, you might also be just copying their mistakes too. Yeah, that's true.
00:20:50
Speaker
And, and then a lot of people will just keep, and I swear the the academic, Like world, this is what they do. They look at everybody else's stuff and they're all just copying each other. Like it's insane.
00:21:03
Speaker
And, you know, but again, it's like they those, those sites were designed to solve specific problems that they had. Yeah. And then if you're just duplicating, you're not doing any favors for your own users, you know?
00:21:15
Speaker
Yeah. Like, like, ah like, like we say, it's, it's having convictions of your own, yeah um, trying not to get caught in the echo chambers of experts. And just trying things because the discovery is part of the fun of it. That's that's why we do it.
00:21:33
Speaker
yeah even if and And I even hesitate to say that that your first thing is going to suck. That's that's not necessarily true. No, absolutely not. yeah i think I think your first thing might be great.
00:21:44
Speaker
You know? Yeah. It may not be like, you know, gangbusters, Kickstarter, you know, million dollar thing, but it's still really good. it may not be. It may be but it may not be, but but, but that's okay. The thing is it's, it's the best you could do at the time. Yeah.
00:21:59
Speaker
And, and you know, Hey, that's probably pretty good. Yeah. Especially if you're conscientious and, and, and are really trying and, and, and doing, doing your best. It, yeah all you can do is get better.
00:22:13
Speaker
Yeah. And it doesn't mean you suck. Yeah. So that's all. That's all. That's what would say. So that there's, you know, and just to, just to clarify to too, you there's a difference between doing your due diligence and, you know, taking all the input from all the peoples, from all the different communities. Like you don't, that's, that's too much. You don't want the fire hose.
00:22:32
Speaker
Yeah. It becomes, you just get stuck. Right. Doing your due diligence is just maybe you want to verify or, you know, looking at say Peg's products, for example, if you're doing Savage Worlds, you know, what are what are the things that they have changed over time and you know, why?
00:22:45
Speaker
Right. And, and, How are they doing things now and why? you know um And we realize that they are changing things as we speak that you don't know about, that you have have decided are sacrosanct. This is what you do.
00:23:00
Speaker
know Simon is working on something else now, yeah but you don't know about it yet because he hasn't he hasn't shown you. yeah You know what I mean? yeah So it doesn't mean it's all set in stone.
00:23:11
Speaker
yeah I think just look at the style guide may of whatever you're doing, if there is one, and follow it and release it in your own voice. Yes. Make it something that you know you really would have fun playing or you'd have fun running and and go for it.
00:23:30
Speaker
Exactly. Just hit publish. Go for it. Yeah. I mean, you know if it especially if your first product is digital, like you know you can you can update it.
00:23:40
Speaker
If you really feel like, ah that could be better, you can update it. I do. I have. You know, and and again, it's not finished. It's just published, as Shane says.
00:23:51
Speaker
Right? That's right. how many How many, you know, releases of Savage Worlds has, you know, has Pinnacle put out with changes and updates and clarifications and corrections? And, you know, it just happens.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah. Happens to the best of them. Yeah. What else, John? Where's the place that you want to see your games go? I know Hound Cluster is now about to be out in the wild. It's getting printed.
00:24:16
Speaker
Good question. Where do you want to see that go? And and the same the same holds true. I know, Christian, you're you're writing in something with... Yeah, well... So yeah, so Jen, we're we're wrapping up Campaign Cardomancy.
00:24:27
Speaker
Finally, we're getting really close. I just got to, she's going to kill me. I got to edit some last bit stuff and send it over to Carl. um And that's a product that we're like, we don't know how it's going to, you know, how people are going to receive it because it's it's something really different.
00:24:44
Speaker
Yeah. And on one hand, we're like, oh, you know, are people really going to get it? Are they going to appreciate it? Are they going to use it? You know, on the other hand, we're like, who cares? We think it's cool.
00:24:56
Speaker
You know, and we just want if, you know, again, Trent Reznor doing his one of his first shows, yeah one guy in the back screaming the lyrics to Head Like a Hole. And he's like, if I if this all ends right now, I'm good.
00:25:09
Speaker
Right. That's all I want. I just want somebody to appreciate the stuff we do. I don't need it to be, I'm not doing this to be like a major successful RPG publisher. I'm doing this cause it's fun.
00:25:21
Speaker
You know? um I do want to have a reputation as a publisher cause I want people to trust our products, but I'm not, for me, it's not, it's not my identity, I guess. It's not what's going to define whether I'm happy in life, you know, that kind of thing.
00:25:36
Speaker
Yeah, for me, it's it's ah it's hard to it's hard to pin down exactly. i'd say that at least 50% of it is already done. I've done what i What I set out to do, which is to create this world in a cohesive and plausible way um and to give people the opportunity to inhabit it.
00:26:02
Speaker
And the other 50% is to hope that some people will inhabit it. And not just in a superficial way, but to go ahead and go all the way in and see what I'm trying to say.
00:26:17
Speaker
Because I'm not going to say it outright. I'm not going to say it in a, I'm not going to tell you what it's about. I want you to experience what it's about. Right.
00:26:27
Speaker
And i want it to go beyond a game at this point. I want it to, whether it's whether it's into comic books or whether it's into fiction or whether it's the the ultimate you know possibility of going into some sort of animated something.
00:26:46
Speaker
I know that's ambitious. I know it is. But it's a drive. And it's probably unlikely to happen, but it is a drive in me because i want to share these stories just like the stories of TV shows and movies have hit me so hard.
00:27:04
Speaker
The ones that have really hit me. And made me go, wow, I'm glad that got made. Even now, even though it was canceled early or even though like there's, it it may not have hit for everybody. Yeah.
00:27:18
Speaker
Wow, I'm glad that got made. And I want Honklus to be that. Right. I got to enjoy that experience, you know, that media, whatever it was, film, movie, TV series, book series, comic book series. Or a game, right? Or a game, yeah. In this case, managed to make a game. I did it.
00:27:36
Speaker
yeah right And books are coming and yeah it's out it's going to be out there. And i will i guess i there's it's just an inert drive to express that in more ways than just what I've already done.
00:27:51
Speaker
yeah And of course, expand on what the game is. And I don't know. i don't know. at this point... It's hard to say where I want Honkwester to go, except that i want to I have a drive to do more and to get it out there so that at least a few people, and more the better, can experience that experience that I've had with the best things I've experienced in my life.
00:28:20
Speaker
You know, like the experience of watching Stranger Things for the first time or the the experience of watching ah Stanley Kubrick movie for the first time. And the depth that i discover on re-watching it again and again, you know, it's these are just examples. They're all over the place because I like lots of stuff, but I want that for Hancluster.
00:28:45
Speaker
There's a drive, whether it's fair or not, or whether it's realistic or not, that's the drive. Nice. Yeah. So, I mean, you're telling me don't ask who the director is going to be for the film adaptation. I have no idea.
00:28:56
Speaker
would have been David Lynch, but... That would have been a good I right now I'm looking at Christopher Nolan, but, you know. Oh, yeah. Oh. I think he would do a great job. But then again, it would have to be a good enough property that he'd be interested in doing it.
00:29:10
Speaker
And that's a collaborative thing that goes beyond me. goes way beyond me. It goes it goes into... acting, it goes into directing, goes into producing, it goes into production, it goes into lighting, all that stuff that's beyond me.
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Yeah, and and don't sleep on Jon Favreau either. Yeah. I was going say James Gunn or John Favreau would be great options as well. But James Gunn did for Guardians of the Galaxy, like the amount of humor and heart that those, like, and I don't know very many directors who can pull both of those things off together yeah in that, in that way, you know? Yeah. And just pull the heart out. your' It's so true. It's so true. I think that's great though. I mean, for, for either one of ah the products, is is there a,
00:29:56
Speaker
a character, I know ah Tracy for you, probably Haley Preston, but maybe someone else that like, do you ever think about where they are 10 years down the line after, after the curtain closes? um and that's either in ah in a personal game you've played or an NPC you've written that you've kind of put out in the world for other people to, yeah you know, play at their tables. i mean, Haley is one of those people where, you know, there are, I don't want to spoil what happens in the campaign, but there are things that happened to her, her,
00:30:25
Speaker
in the campaign that are that are profound and things that could happen to her that are profound. And I wonder where she is in 10 years after that campaign's over because she was an integral part of it without taking away any agency that the PCs had in their part in it.
00:30:47
Speaker
But also there's there's games I played like 50 Fathoms when Daryl ran it for us many years ago. ah my character, Karina Cape, who was the captain of, I forget the name of the ship that we had, but we ended up having a fleet because she became an admiral later.
00:31:04
Speaker
And by the end of the by the end of the campaign, she was an admiral. she was practical and fair and sometimes brutal.
00:31:16
Speaker
And she, at the end of the campaign, she sails off the map. she's She's leaving Charybdis into waters unknown. and i And I wonder what happens to her at the end, and in 10 years, you know?
00:31:33
Speaker
And so, yeah, there's there's all kinds of those things. And I think that's that's true of a lot of people who are able, especially to finish campaigns, because a lot of a lot of players aren't able to finish. They just play campaigns forever and ever, or they fizzle out and they never get finished or whatever.
00:31:51
Speaker
And they never have that moment of what happens to my character after their big triumph. you know And I wish that for you, for all of you, to have at least one of those where you get to finish something and you and you triumph in a big way and you get to have thought experiments about what your character becomes later.
00:32:14
Speaker
Yeah. Well, if it's any consolation, I actually had that with Coral in the con game. Oh, good. Yeah. Like I was just, I was already like, you know, the last thing I remember ah was, ah you know, she sends a message home to her sister and is like, I'm coming home.
00:32:28
Speaker
And I'm just like thinking of like, what's going to happen next. And then like for like a month or so, I was just, ah couldn't let it go. And I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I've had so many like that.
00:32:40
Speaker
What happens to the little girl, i think I forget her name, in the case of the doping dolphin, which is my teen detective thing. She's got cancer. yeah I wonder what happens to her.
00:32:51
Speaker
i wonder you know i wonder what happens to Captain Crush after he retires. Right. You know, or or how the redemption of of Nari in Captain Crush goes after the PCs have helped redeem her.
00:33:07
Speaker
You know, I think about that stuff all the time. It's part of the way I play. Yeah. And I wish that for a lot of other people. I want you to have that at least once. Everybody else. Yeah. I mean, and that's, that's a sign of a good story. Cause it's like, you know you think about, you know, films, not necessarily so that have series, you know, but just like a one-off film where you're like, that is such an awesome story. I want more because I want to see these characters and I want to see what they, you know, where they go next. Yeah.
00:33:36
Speaker
And of course it never happens. Cause you know, that wasn't the intent. Yeah. Yeah. But you you know as frustrating as that is, it also feels good. yeah Because it's it's up to you what happens to them next. And I've written stories like that where people have asked me, can you write a sequel? And I'm like, no, no I don't want to know what happens to her after this.
00:33:55
Speaker
Yeah. Because I want that to be an open question. I want you to decide what happens to her. That's part of the experience. Exactly. Yeah. It is part of saying goodbye. That's true.
00:34:06
Speaker
that's true. It is. And that's something I think we all have to do with our characters or or the things we write eventually anyway, kind of like this episode's talking about, is is that saying goodbye and not not kind of holding on to them, but reminiscing fondly about the the memories that you shared with them and and and wishing them well on their journey wherever it may have taken them.
00:34:27
Speaker
I mean, hell for me, what is it? The wild cards doing ETU. Oh yeah. I like, I don't know, like a year ago, i was like, I wonder how, you know, I wonder how, uh, how Sawyer's doing. And I wonder how, and then I thought, wait, that's not a real person. I don't know them in reality.
00:34:44
Speaker
Like that's, yeah you know, I, that's, that was a, just a character that I'd really grown fond of watching them play through this whole thing. You know, I know that, uh, you know, Ron Stevens becomes precedent obviously one day, but that's a different thing altogether. It's, you know, it's those things where you get to say goodbye and you don't have to try to try to write that followup. That's not, that's something for the table that, that, you the other the characters like Tracy said, I think that's absolutely correct. It's for them. It's theirs. Yeah.
00:35:13
Speaker
Yeah. So, and and everybody will have their own version of it. Yeah. Yeah. So do you have ambitions, John? I mean, you've got, you've, you've written for, uh, uh, city guard chronicles. You've written your seventh kind adventure. You, I think you've got a couple of other things out there.
00:35:29
Speaker
Are you, do you have ambitions? Do you have a drive like, like I do or, or what, how are your, what is, what is, what is in the future for you? So I'm still noodling around with the the pulp adventures. There's going to be five or six of those overall, and it will actually finish up in an arc. So right now I i created, you know, a bad guy, eastern Eastern European nation in the 1930s.
00:35:53
Speaker
And it's not Germany because that's a ah little played out. but I mean, it's not wrong, but it's a little played out. So it's the Oberonians, right? Like of Oberon of, you know, the Fay court, but that's a,
00:36:07
Speaker
that's a nod in that direction as opposed to being a direct line to, to it being favor related, right. It's still pulp. Um, but you know, they're going to have ah a break, a vacation in the next one that's coming out and they're going to be going to the grand Canyon and you know, try as you might, when you're writing an adventure, something has to happen, right. There has to be some kind of conflict that, that gives the players something to do. And it gives the GM something to, to hang on to and hooks to to throw at them and have fun.
00:36:37
Speaker
And I like writing in that way so that, you know, fun can be had as the GM reading it and then for the players who are playing in it. And then after that, they're going to be right back in the swing of it, ah probably moving on to the final two, you know, big adventures in that, which is going to put them one leading up to finding everything out that's going on. And then the last one will be in the heart of the beast itself and, and resolving the Oberynian issue. Mm-hmm.
00:37:07
Speaker
So that that is going to happen with those ones. and And it's just, you know, again, you know, finding what's called spare time. Ha ha. That's a funny joke that that would exist, but yeah you know, finding some kind of, of drive for, for finishing it up. And I'm almost done with the, with the grand Canyon adventure.
00:37:26
Speaker
I think it's going to be a good time. um And after that, I have a couple of things that I've been noodling on for a very long time in my head. And I haven't had a chance to sit down and actually figure out what,
00:37:40
Speaker
what you do, right? Like when, when you're designing something, yeah yeah like I could, I know there was another podcast that said, you know, if you're just telling a story and doesn't matter what the players are doing in there, you just write a book.
00:37:51
Speaker
Oh yeah. um And I enjoyed listening to that podcast while it ran too, but you know, for this, it's
00:38:01
Speaker
It's about making sure that what I do or what I come up with as as something for for the players to do and something for the GM to really enjoy and want to run. um And like I said, there's there's definitely irons in the fire that have been percolating for years and years and years and years.
00:38:21
Speaker
And it's just one of those things to figure out what what is the... what is the to do here? Is there something that would be fun enough that I think it's, it's worth pursuing.
00:38:33
Speaker
yeah And, and every time I think, you know, shower thoughts, every time I think about this kind of thing, I'm like, Oh, this is a clever part about this, or this is something that I think would actually be a really fun scene. Yeah. And you know, a scene does not an adventure make or a setting make, but it does inform how, how the overall feeling of it is that you're trying to get across to to the, to the GM who reads it.
00:38:57
Speaker
Yeah. And I know we had talked a little bit beforehand about this, but, you know, tell me when you write, what, what, what do you think? Like, um, I mean, not just who to write to, but you know, you're writing for someone to read this.
00:39:15
Speaker
And when you do, how how do you make sure that they're they're catching your your theme you're trying to impart? you know What do you do so that the elements, if it's you emotional ah drive or action or something, are are written well enough so that it's it's comprehended by the person who's going to be running the game and making sure that at their table they at least have an idea of what you were attempting to get across? Yeah.
00:39:43
Speaker
So you're thinking like like in a scene, if there's like an NPC interaction, um so to speak, or um are more of like a a dynamic in this in the setting? Yeah, like like a dynamic where you're trying to get get across some semblance of of interaction. You want...
00:40:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:05
Speaker
again whether it's an emotional feeling whether it's a feeling of action whether it's a call to action you know how do you guys decide to write for that kind of of scene of that of that interaction Like I think if it if it's an ambient feeling, let's say for like maybe, okay, maybe you're going into this village that's been struggling with something. Maybe the crops have been, you know, not growing or whatever, you know, whatever it might be.
00:40:31
Speaker
Um, you know, I've, I've done this as a GM and and we're trying to do this in the plot point for Explorer where, you know, we try to, um, We try to convey visually what the feeling is of that space. um i don't know if I'm explaining this well enough.
00:40:52
Speaker
you know, like if it's somber or if it's, you know, if they're, you know, in the distance you hear a baby crying of hunger, you know, kind of thing, or, you know, that kind of, that those kinds of things so where it sets a tone, you know, it's it's, it's, yeah, I guess it's just really trying to, trying to color it and frame it without telling the players, everybody here is sad, you know?
00:41:14
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and it's about what what do they see? What do they hear? What do they smell? yeah you know, that kind of thing. So engage the senses kind of thing. Yeah, engage the senses. Yeah, it's the same as fiction.
00:41:25
Speaker
You know, you're trying to show, not tell. And you're trying to explain, in in our case, you're trying to explain to the GM how to show, not tell. Right, right. And they not all GMs are going to...
00:41:37
Speaker
be willing to do that or necessarily be able to do that in the same way that you're asking them to. um So you have to have a little flexibility there, right? Like ah bottom line, you got to tell them what happened.
00:41:52
Speaker
Like even if you don't get the emotional beats across and all that stuff, they got to know what happened and they've got to convey that in some way. Ideally, hopefully they'll convey it in a way that is mood filled and engages the senses, like you say, and shows, not tells.
00:42:09
Speaker
And there's a moment in Han Cluster PPC where it's it's a should It's a heavily emotional moment. And the way I play it out is quiet and I ah perform it.
00:42:25
Speaker
You know, this is how I GM is I perform these things. ah Horizon, for example, is another, is at the the Horizon Zero Dawn one shot where if if I'm, like I did it in a a private environment where I had five people who were in their living room and it was just us.
00:42:47
Speaker
And so i could I could convey this feeling of dread And fear of what's out there with these machines that are out there. They can't quite tell where they are. They can't quite see them.
00:43:02
Speaker
And I'm whispering at the table. Stalkers. I hate stalkers. Something's over here. you know And i've I'm bringing that mood to there. And they start whispering along with me because they don't want to disturb those stalkers that are out there.
00:43:20
Speaker
Yes, that's what you want. So it's it's very GM dependent. It just is. But as a designer, you've got to ride in such a way that they're inspired to do that for their players.
00:43:32
Speaker
Yeah. Right? And that they know what to do. Right. And if if they're not keen on doing it, you can't you can't make them But if you can inspire them with with, like I say, showing, not telling and and engaging the senses and, you know, I like to create dialogue that I can act out yeah and really immerse them with so that so that they have a chance of creating that moment in in in the in the game.
00:44:05
Speaker
So I don't know if that answers the question, but that's it's I can't give specifics. i just engage the style of writing that I like. And I try to write to the GM in a way that the GM is excited to run this moment or run this game so that they understand what they need to do.
00:44:27
Speaker
But they also, if they're inclined to to create those moments for the players, that they're excited to do it. yeah Like, oh, what a... What a crazy cool moment to to be able to say, okay these stalkers are out there.
00:44:41
Speaker
You don't know exactly where they are. now I'm not writing Horizon for anybody else, but if I were to write it for somebody else, I would create the mood and I would explain the situation and the the the environment.
00:44:54
Speaker
And then I would try to encourage them to scare the hell out of their players. Yeah. the The jungle is rich with the sounds of of life. Yeah, exactly. And simultaneously...
00:45:05
Speaker
And you see a shimmer over here. You're really quiet what What it is or if it's there at all. Right. But something was there. A stillness in the air you can't explain. Something's over here too.
00:45:16
Speaker
Yeah. And then like, okay, what do you do? You know, what do you do Right. And then they start whispering to each other because they don't want to disturb the stalkers that are out there. Yeah. Yeah. And what we absolutely did that at Gamehole two years ago.
00:45:30
Speaker
Jen and I were whispering back and forth to each other it because I hate stalkers, too. that No, they're the worst. And then apparently I'm talking to Tracy about it. She's like, well, just use the arrow. I'm like, there's an arrow for this. I was just getting murdered.
00:45:44
Speaker
Just straight face murdered by the terror blast arrows. Yeah. tell you Oh, yeah. Terrorblast, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I didn't know. Rip off that. Yeah. Rip that shenanigans. Rip that shit off of there. That's for sure.
00:45:55
Speaker
yeah But back to when we were whispering, we were like, oh, they're out there. that way i think And Tracy's like, roll notice. And we're like, wow. it Minus four. No, what do you mean minus four? That's kind of evil person, are was actually minus six. They're invisible.
00:46:13
Speaker
What you want? Oh, that's what it was. Minus six. Even worse. Yeah, they're invisible. And then, of course, there were there were things that that would set the... you know The mines? mines. It was...
00:46:25
Speaker
you And then all of a sudden when there's a huge noise and everybody now and knows where you are. And there's three stalkers around it. Right. it's It's those moments you want to create. And the GMs, know really good GMs know how to do this.
00:46:38
Speaker
Yeah. And if you're if you're designing it, you're writing it for them to inspire them to do it. Yep. However you can do it. I think too with, with, ah with NPCs, you know, it's, it's not enough to say just what they're saying, but how they're saying it, you know, what's, what's their, what's their body language when they're, when they're speaking, what are they, you know, are they, you know, making eye contact? Are they looking away? Do they have a song, you know, a sadness in their eyes, you know, whatever those, there's ways to convey that so that the GM understands, Oh yeah, I thought this is, this should be really,
00:47:13
Speaker
you know, very still moment, you know? Yeah. And you can do that with just words. Yep. Just words can do that. If you give it that's why I do read alouds for NPCs because I'm telling you how they talk.
00:47:26
Speaker
i'm I'm not only conveying information through their words, but I'm conveying who they are and what the mood of the scene is and what exactly what's going on. And ah that's the way I like to do it. it's not the It's not the right, best, good way. It's just my way. That's your style. And everyone can have a different style as they want to write. it's not Not everyone needs to be Brandon Sanderson. Not everyone needs to be Tracy Sizemore. Not everyone needs to be Terry Pratchett. you do You do what your style is. It's about your yourselfs yeah your voice. And if you're still figuring it out, that's okay.
00:48:02
Speaker
and Adventures are plentiful out there, right? the RPG games are plentiful out there. Settings are plentiful out there. What you're bringing out here, what you're putting out there, I should say, is your voice. Yeah. And what you want to, you know, what doesn't exist, right? Out in the world already. Yeah. And maybe, and there lot of people who don't care about any of this kind of creative and experience stuff. They just want have a fun fight with armor, power armor. Which is fair. It's great. There's nothing wrong with that. Salvage Rules is especially great for it because the combat system is so rich and so detailed and so amazing that you can just have a full session of combat. We've done it many times. It just combat and gear, right? Cool gear and awesome combat. Exactly. That's fair too.
00:48:45
Speaker
But would encourage you to try to create experiences. Right. In addition to that. Right. And that it takes, it takes play testing. It takes experience and it takes watching other people interact with your words and seeing what they do.
00:49:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. i agree. do you want me to ah get to the questions and topics that were asked by the people in the Discord, our dear friends and and Discord members? We'll do a ah sort of semi-lightning round. I mean, we we we can take a little time, but it'll take forever because we've already taken forever.
00:49:19
Speaker
Well, how about lightning the questions quickly and you guys can expand on the answers as much as you want. Sure. and that would The lightning's at least in one way. You guys can thunder on if you'd like. Perfect. Yeah.
00:49:30
Speaker
Yeah. So we had one from ah Blackguard Prez, who is the Blackguard Press president, I suppose, asking, obviously, in addition to them, being your absolute favorite, well, second favorite to to John Doom's writings.
00:49:46
Speaker
But what's a what's what's a favorite indie publisher you have out there, maybe for swag or NACE that you really like? Well, I think that both Christian and I agree about Failed Fury Entertainment.
00:49:58
Speaker
Yeah. Which is yeah Manuel Sams. He did Sprawl Runners. And what was the other thing that we were talking about earlier? Distant Journeys. Distant Journeys. like It's funny because like we i I couldn't remember who did Distant Journeys. and I was like, oh, that was Manuel. Of course it was.
00:50:14
Speaker
so yeah Manuel is fantastic. And Sprawl Runners is popular idea. it's a popular idea Very well executed.
00:50:25
Speaker
Yeah. Meaning that he wanted to make a very accessible way to play Shadowrun slash cyberpunk in Savage Worlds. And he did.
00:50:37
Speaker
Yep. He will tell you he made a toolkit. Yep. Not a... Not a setting, so don't ask him about a setting. He doesn't like writing adventures, but it is an extremely popular and very well done toolkit and yeah yeah all the kudos in the Royal Land. I was just looking at still third in the hottest swag items after all these years. Yeah, that's amazing.
00:50:59
Speaker
it's I can't hope to match that, right? And part of that is because he has his finger on the pulse of what people wanted. Mm-hmm.
00:51:11
Speaker
And he did it really well. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's recommended constantly. Yeah. You know, And this isn't even just because he's going to send us all a bottle of bourbon either. This is all i own our own thoughts on this. Whiskey and what was it? Whiskey and wild cards. Yeah. it's Released this once every five years, but it's a pretty good podcast when it does come out.
00:51:36
Speaker
Yeah. Lafroigue, if you don't mind. Ten years, fine. yeah McAllen, 12. But I don't know, you know, in terms of what, I don't even know really what an indie publisher is these days. And it's it's very hard for me to define it to the point where I can point individual ones out. Plus I don't have my finger on the pulse very well because there's so much out there. So much out there. Yeah. It's, it's interesting because yeah. What is an indie publisher these days, right?
00:52:05
Speaker
ah Not Wizards of the Coast or, you know, not it, it,
00:52:12
Speaker
Like, you know, some people even try to say Peg is an indie publisher, but they're not really. but know Yeah. By certain definitions, they could be. because They could be. Right. Yeah. So it's it's a pretty. We're talking way low on the totem pole in terms of.
00:52:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Like Monty Cook games. Size of. Yeah. what the The income stream they have. Yeah. And, you know, so i think like, you know doghouse rules, you know, that's another one. yeah I love their stuff. um And then, you know, Sid, Sid, the squid shadow craft.
00:52:42
Speaker
You know, it was really good little supplement there. And, and, and Jetty. Jetty's City Guard Chronicles, which John wrote for. Wand Magic, which I've used. Wand Magic, yep. So good.
00:52:53
Speaker
Yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot of great stuff out there. There's certain magic college, magic school games that like people could write and Wand Magic goes very, very well for. oh yeah, yeah.
00:53:05
Speaker
Yep. Or Eberron, Wand Slingers and Eberron. Right, oh man. Yeah. So good. That's just the Savage Worlds people that we know about. Oh, yeah. There's so many others.
00:53:15
Speaker
But yeah, I think to Tracy's point, like, i yeah, i don't have my finger on the pulse either because it's it's just so hard to keep up these days. there's so much there's There's so much good stuff, honestly, that's out there.
00:53:27
Speaker
Yeah. And um yeah, it's it's I think people are are in their communities and, you know, they like what they like. Exactly. You know. Yep. Yeah.
00:53:38
Speaker
What else, Joe? Yeah, no, I agree with all those answers. I think that's all accurate and and good as far as the the lack of any information on what an indie publisher actually is these days. You ask 10 different people, you get 10 different answers. yeah It's like asking what OSR is.
00:53:54
Speaker
seems like it's it's it's such a community-driven thing. if you if you If you've gotten in with a community, then you've got a community that's going to back you.
00:54:05
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and that's that's really what indie publishing is all about at this point. Yeah, that's true. It's very true. It's finding your community. So our very dear friend Jerry Armistice asks, you know, if if we don't feel like we've already exhausted a mental health topic, which I don't think this very much is, but what do you have to say on motivation, you know, burnout and posture syndrome?
00:54:26
Speaker
I think motivation being the big one on this. Yeah. And I've had my share of motivational drain. um And honestly, even like with like Explora on time to time, from time to time, I'll have that.
00:54:42
Speaker
um And then what ends up happening is I start looking over it or I start talking about it with somebody. And then I'm like, damn, this is actually really good. and And then I get excited again, you know, and then I'm like, okay, I'm diving back into it.
00:54:59
Speaker
um But sometimes too, there are moments where life just kind of gets in the way and you're tired, you're fatigued and the motivation just drains because of that. Because honestly, it's it's not an issue of whether you want to, it's just whether you can prioritize it um But, you know, yeah, just looking over your work, that might that might inspire you to find that time to to be able to make a way to prioritize it sometimes when you can.
00:55:29
Speaker
so Yeah, I think that
00:55:35
Speaker
from what I... I mean, I've experienced it myself, obviously, and I've talked about it many times on this podcast where you go into the dumps, you're at the lowest part of the sine curve and you're not sure whether anything you've done is any good at all.
00:55:49
Speaker
And ah that happens. It just happens. that's That's one kind of demotivation or one kind of. of despair, right? Where a lot of times either reading back on your old stuff and realizing, oh no, this is actually really exciting. This is really cool.
00:56:06
Speaker
I should, I should look at that again or going out and playing it, say running a one shot at a con and letting other people engage with it and seeing it through their eyes can re-motivate you, right?
00:56:20
Speaker
But there's another kind of of despair and lack of motivation that happens. And that's, I don't i i don't personally have too much experience with it.
00:56:33
Speaker
And that's when you want to do something, you want to have it, you want to accomplish it, but you have no motivation to do it. Right. right where Where there's, it's just, it's too much too much effort or too overwhelming.
00:56:53
Speaker
And there's not a joy in its creation itself. And more, you're looking for the joy of having created it i I think there's a lot of that out there.
00:57:06
Speaker
And the only thing I guess I would say is if you're in that kind of a slump, sometimes it's better just to leave it alone for a while and let it go and do something else.
00:57:19
Speaker
yeah And don't put that pressure on yourself because if you're not motivated, you're not motivated. There's no way to force yourself. But maybe you'll come back to it in a year or two years and then have a new life for it, right?
00:57:35
Speaker
Or there may be um ah motivation found in other properties, in other ah media that might re-motivate you, right?
00:57:50
Speaker
But just wanting to do it is not enough. you have to enjoy doing it. Yeah. Because otherwise, there's it's <unk> you're killing yourself unless it's a purely financial motivation. And in this particular
00:58:10
Speaker
you know endeavor, pure financial motivation is probably not a great idea. No. No, no. What's that joke like if you want to make, or if you want to have $2 million dollars in the gaming industry, or no, if you want million. No, if you want to make a million dollars, start with $2 million. You start with $2 million, yeah. I mean, that's true.
00:58:30
Speaker
So I think unless you're working for somebody else and where you've got to find motivation because you're going to get paid by that somebody else to do the stuff, that's different thing. Yeah, freelance work, right. But if you're working on your own thing and really trying to make something you're passionate about, you really have to enjoy the process of making it.
00:58:48
Speaker
Yeah. If you don't, don't do it. And there are there are moments too in the process that are like, it's the administrative kind of crap, right? Like that you that are just, it's time consuming, it's tiring, it's it's mentally draining.
00:59:01
Speaker
It's not exciting, it's not fun, it's not creative necessarily. and And those can be moments too where you're just like, oh, is this worth it? Yeah. um And, you know, I can't say yes or no, depending on your situation, but sometimes you just push through those parts and then, or just look back at the work you've done again and think, no, this is worth it. I need to keep getting this, you know, moving this forward.
00:59:25
Speaker
um Yeah. Find that drive within you. For me, I can find a drive to that feeling of accomplishment of finishing something. Yeah. So even if I'm not enjoying doing it,
00:59:38
Speaker
When those moments hit, when I've got to do marketing or I've yeah got to do certain production things that are really just tedious and awful, that feeling of accomplishment of having done it is motivation enough for me to actually push myself to do it.
00:59:53
Speaker
When you have that that task list you know on your phone and you click that check mark. Yeah, the check mark. that's Or strike through on a pad of paper. Yeah, exactly. vacuia that can feel That can feel good.
01:00:07
Speaker
That can feel good enough that it'll motivate you to do it. and And sometimes it it might be the creative work that you're struggling with. And that's when the administrative stuff might help. Yeah. You know, like, okay, take that break and do some easy stuff for a while and then get back to the creative. So we talked about that before.
01:00:22
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I mean, I, I, it's funny you mentioned like, you know, that the checklist and the first one should be like, write the checklist and then you can cross it off like right away. You're already on the road, right? It's super useful, actually.
01:00:36
Speaker
it's it's like ah It's a little motivation hack in your brain where it goes, I'm doing it already. I love getting into that flow state when I'm writing. i I love when I'm in process. Or I even got it, I started to get it when I'm working in Affinity and figuring out how to do like the the design and layout and started getting flow of that.
01:00:58
Speaker
And you know And then at at that point, you're like, no cow is sacred in this writing. I must kill this entire paragraph so it fits on this page. It's such a beautiful thing. loved that paragraph, but guess what? I love even more it fitting on this page. So that's how it's going i want to be. want look good more than I care about that paragraph. Right. That paragraph wasn't as good as how it looks now. Exactly.
01:01:21
Speaker
and And just kind of like, I don't know, just doing it. Yeah. getting the motivation to sit down and do it, that, that is the start of it. But once I'm in there, oh gosh, it's just, it's a thing. It just starts to into a flow. And then I'm i'm going, I'm going.
01:01:36
Speaker
And there are times where I'm like, okay, I need art here. Now I'll look up art later. Or I will, you know, usually what I do is I look up some kind of model piece that I want to do and I will draw, I will sketch it out. And then, you know, but that's a whole different area for me as I can go, okay, I'm, I don't want to write right now. I can't,
01:01:53
Speaker
and It's not going where I want it to, or it's not coming out the way I want it to. yeah But since I have to do my own art, because I you know refuse to pay what artists are worth, because I can't afford that.
01:02:03
Speaker
And they are, they're worth every penny. but You don't want to. yeah i I can't, I would love to. Um, and they're very much worth every penny of that. Uh, But, you know, so I'm like, okay, I yeah i can i can sketch. like I spent my entire life drawing. I love this stuff. So I'll do that instead. And then when I'm like, okay, i this drawing is terrible. i' I'll come back to it, you know, in three days or something like that. because like everything else, as soon as you create something, you're like, well, this is the worst thing I've ever done in my entire life.
01:02:31
Speaker
I should start on fire and then quit, quit drawing forever. ah I'll just write again. Yeah. You know, I mean, I remember my first experience with that. i was drawing like a picture of an airplane cause I loved it when I was in third grade. And I look over at this girl next to me and she's drawing a horse and the horse is like, you know, every hair is visually drawn and there's hero skero shading and everything's perfect. Then I look back at my plane. I'm like, I'm, well, I got to crumple this up and throw it away.
01:02:56
Speaker
But, you know, like with everything else, you don't compare yourself to others. Comparison is a thief of joy. Just just do it for yourself. and do it for something that you know you're going to love making. And and if it's if it's something you really love, then yeah chances are someone else out there will love it too.
01:03:11
Speaker
And you just got to hope that that person connects with it. um yeah But yeah, that's that's how how I get through it. is i just i I sit down and I go, okay, just do one thing I enjoy doing right now. Whatever that right now is that I enjoy doing, and it changes.
01:03:26
Speaker
It can be you know finding finding a model that I want to draw or or doing some kind of writing. Doing doing an NPC voice. Um, I love making voices when I'm playing as characters and, you know, you bet your butt that I do it when I'm writing characters too.
01:03:42
Speaker
Uh, Dr. Lloyd Douglas in, in the pulp adventures is named after my dad. um You know, he passed two years ago this month and i ah man, I really wanted to play with him and I just never had the the balls to ask him to, you know, sit down and play, like, play D&D with me or whatever. yeah um But it's just written after him. So, you know, the voice is very much his in my head.
01:04:04
Speaker
um But with a little bit more ah like professory. What's the word for that? like ah an Academic? Academic. That's the exact word. Yes. A little bit more academic, which is you know how he is. He's ah a leader of a museum that helps guard antiquities that are around the world so that you know people can't just go and take them.
01:04:23
Speaker
And it makes it really fun that I get to have that voice and then write as that when I'm but i'm creating the the NPC for people to read and writing the the the text boxes for them to go through. Nice.
01:04:34
Speaker
So, yeah, that's that's kind of how I jump into that. Thank you for for asking. And this transitions into the imposter syndrome part, right? right Which, I mean, we've talked about it, but it's... it's
01:04:47
Speaker
It's real. It's real for everybody. i don't care who you are. Yeah. But I don't know. You just you just do the thing. You do the thing. Like like like John was saying, you you just do what what what what interests you and try not to compare yourself to others.
01:05:06
Speaker
I think ah you know something something that's happened with me over time... and and this, this ebbs and flows, but just not even caring, you know, not, not, not even caring whether or not you're as good or, you know, better than or whatever, whatever might be, just work on your thing.
01:05:27
Speaker
You know, don't, it It is easy to look at other products and be like, wow, i'll look at the production quality on that or whatever. um But you just just don't, you know, like yeah don't care about it that much. Just care about the quality of your thing and make it the best that you can do.
01:05:46
Speaker
And yeah, look at inspiration, but don't, don't use that as a a bar, so to speak. i mean, you know, or at least don't, don't base your own sense of value on that, I guess is what I'm really getting at. Yeah.
01:06:03
Speaker
Um, say there's I think we did a whole episode on it. so we yeahp yep Don't go out there trying to be Shane Hensley writing Deadlands or Jammed to Foggy writing Jackals or anything like that. you Just get out there and write the thing you want to write and and write it for yourself. and yeah People like it great if they don't.
01:06:23
Speaker
yeah Not everyone has to love everything. realize that Shane Hensley is sitting there questioning himself every day also.
01:06:35
Speaker
yep Oh yeah. and None of us are immune. yeah No, no, no. I mean, you know, the whole fake it till you make it, let's be honest, everybody's just constantly faking it, you know?
01:06:45
Speaker
Right. Even after they made it, they still feel like they make it. Yeah. Right. yeah You can have piles of evidence that you've made it and it's still, you're still faking it, you know? like, yeah. What else, Joe?
01:06:56
Speaker
Well, on to the next guy. Uh, let's see. A fine and handsome gentleman named John Doom wrote a question about, Like prototypical adventures. um So when you're writing something that fits within a a con game, like a timeframe, is there is there any any rules of thumb you adhere to to make sure it fits within that amount of time? Or is it just tweak after playtesting?
01:07:19
Speaker
What methods do you guys go through? Uh, for me, the latter. Um, I've, I've, I've written adventures where I think this, oh, this will work. This is fine. And, you know, and I don't get to play test it necessarily before the con game.
01:07:35
Speaker
Um, and then I'm like, wow, we're halfway through and there's only one hour left, you know, like that's, there's a lot to cover. And then that's when, you know, i start kind of spontaneously trimming things. And then i I take that afterward and then I'll go revise it for the next time.
01:07:51
Speaker
um And then what that has allowed me to do is just learn, honestly, just the feel of what what is the flow? What is the pacing? in a con game, you know, especially with this particular adventure, what are the things that people linger on to, you know, what scenes do they linger on? What scenes do they just brush through, you know?
01:08:10
Speaker
And then I just refined from there. um And then when I wrote, a like, that was like my experience with my first adventure. then when I wrote a second one, I i kind of had a feel of what I could expect within the four hour slot.
01:08:25
Speaker
Right. And so I tried to, um, basically I tried to try to be, um, what's the word efficient, I guess, uh, with what I'm going to focus on. I like trying to trying to showcase Savage Worlds.
01:08:39
Speaker
So I'll try to have a little bit of everything, not everything, little bit of a few things that I i think are good highlights, like social conflicts, dramatic tasks, and the chase, right? So I'll do like, you know, start with combat, maybe do a chase, do a short social kind kind conflict, like if time, the dramatic task, and then, you know or or, you know, I'll trim something if there's not time, one of those things, and then the final combat.
01:09:05
Speaker
Um, but I, ah I also try to make it a point to estimate losing an hour, one for introduction, two for banter, you know, and then just whatever distractions and things like that. So really, really I'm trying to write for three hours.
01:09:23
Speaker
And then if I have more time available, I can expand something a little bit, you know, drag it out a little bit longer. So. And I appreciate the three hour right too, because I think it allows the time for a bathroom break, which, you know, as I get older, I find is more necessary to make sure you plan those things out.
01:09:37
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Especially if you've been drinking. I mean. Yeah. lot lot of water A lot of water. Water. Yeah. Hydrating. Laphroaig and McAllen 12, Manu. Sure. Laphroaig and McAllen 12. Yeah.
01:09:49
Speaker
Yeah, I don't i don't want ascribe to a formula. I know that other people do. Some some people mentioned the five-act formula and some people think about the three-act formula and and stuff like that. I tend to not think that way. I think in terms of what the story needs.
01:10:08
Speaker
And if I'm writing, so it also depends on what I'm writing for. If if I'm writing specifically to do this as a one-shot at a con, then yeah, I'm writing generally for three to four hours. Right.
01:10:21
Speaker
And I have a good feel for what time takes. And like Christian, when I run it the first time, sometimes I linger too long on things or let things go on for as long too long. And ah that usually is how it goes. And then, of course, I'll shorten it and we'll so we it' still end on our four hours, but I won't feel satisfied because I didn't do it well and it makes it well.
01:10:47
Speaker
But then the next time I know what to what to rush people through and what to to compress and what to elongate and all that stuff so that I get exactly kind of what I was looking for in that four hours.
01:11:02
Speaker
Yeah. That said, I don't write as a designer if I'm writing stuff. I don't necessarily write for a four-hour adventure all the time.
01:11:14
Speaker
Sometimes I do. But sometimes I don't. Like, for example, The Savior of Hollow Oak in Holler and The Curse of Wilson Quarry for Pinebox Middle School were written.
01:11:26
Speaker
um It was story first. And then i did I determined based on what I'd written and the pages that I had to fill, how long I think, and the jumpstart while we're at it, the Tongue Cluster jumpstart, how long this can take.
01:11:45
Speaker
meaning it could be between one and three sessions, right? It depends on how you run it. And it can be one session, but it can also be three sessions and you can you can dive a little deeper into stuff.
01:11:58
Speaker
And so that depends. That I leave up to the GM to to to do that work. You know, whether whether if they want to compress it into one session. And with the Jumpstart, I've given lots of advice about how to compress reunification into one session.
01:12:14
Speaker
But Yeah. If I'm, I'm, I go by feel, I go by, and, and since I run these one shots multiple times, cause I like the
Importance of Iteration & One-Shots
01:12:24
Speaker
familiarity of that. It it makes me, it, it lets me have fun.
01:12:28
Speaker
If I'm not running something new every time, i don't, I don't like that. I like to run things that I know so that I can, have that feeling of, oh, I nailed it this time.
01:12:39
Speaker
I got it this time. You know, that time with with Violet Evans, it was a great ah ah one shot and I ended 345 and everybody just raving and raring for more and I felt accomplished and I felt like I did it well.
01:12:56
Speaker
Like that's the feeling I'm looking for. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so it's not, it takes iteration to get there. Yeah. It takes iteration to get there. It really does. Sometimes occasionally the first time I nail it, but, but, and the more experience I have, the more likely I am to do that.
01:13:12
Speaker
Yeah. But,
Non-crucial Encounters in Game Design
01:13:13
Speaker
um, A lot of times it's like, it's not perfect the first time. i kind of messed this up or I spent too long on this or whatever. And even teen crush, that's a challenging one. Like I've, I've had to iterate on that several times in order to make it like consistently good for different types of players in different, different situations and stuff.
01:13:37
Speaker
But anyway, so yeah, it's iterate and run it multiple times for me. I don't tend to follow a structure and I don't certainly think of of it in terms of cramming in as many kind of yeah savage world subsystems as I can. I just do what's necessary for the adventure.
01:13:56
Speaker
For that story. Yeah. yeah Yeah. also, one thing I will suggest is um and not so much a formula, but but a tool that I think if you can always employ this, it it'll probably help you.
01:14:09
Speaker
um Have an encounter, like you have your story, you have your encounters and so on, but always make one of the encounters something that isn't crucial necessarily. That if you can kind of use exposition to convey whatever's supposed to happen in there, um that can help. Because then if you do find yourself short on time, you can just cut that out without consequence.
01:14:30
Speaker
Or do it as a quick encounter 7th. Or do it as a quick encounter, right. can be that fast. Yeah, exactly. can be that fast. And and so
Smaller Projects: Accessibility & Creativity
01:14:38
Speaker
just it just gives you like you know sort of like an a parachute, I guess, to to be able to shorten it without ruining it, so to speak. but That's absolutely great. that's ah I'm sure that John Doom is very happy with those of thoughts on that yeah i guess we'll have to wait and see yeah i'm sure there'll be some kind of response in the uh upcoming discussion forum for this um gerber asks uh interested in in discussing smaller scope projects uh things that aren't 300 page hardback something a little bit more accessible um not really a question here but i i guess the question i would would pose to this is
01:15:18
Speaker
Like, um is is there a different style that you employ when you're writing something that is intended to be smaller than than something um that is like, ah you know, a Han cluster or... um Oh, geez, Christian, I'm so sorry. It's... Explora? Explora, yeah.
01:15:39
Speaker
Yeah, i mean i mean, I think that... Look at swag, right? Like, that's all filled with that kind of stuff. um And I think... ah So we actually... You know, Jen took a break from Explora to do Campaign Cartomancy because that was she was inspired by an idea. It's ah it's like maybe 100 some odd pages. It's not, you know, it's not 300. And most of those pages, honestly, are just...
01:16:04
Speaker
it's just like one card with, you know, interpret interpretations for that card. Right. So it's not like it's dense material per se. And then there's some tables. Um, you know, and i I, think there's definitely space for those kinds of things. I think some of those products can be the most fun too, because they could be like cool tools that you can implement in your game. Uh, they could be like some sort of cool subsystem. You know, we talked about distant journeys, you know, and and then the, the wealth, I, supplement things like that.
01:16:32
Speaker
run ah the Oh my God. It's one of my favorites. What's his name? The warrior adept. yeah word Yeah, yeah. Ron Blessings, Warrior Edip. This is an edge, but he added some extras to it. yeah And the adventure for that is super fun too. Yeah. yeah so it's a real good time.
01:16:47
Speaker
I used that for SoulKnives for a while. So good. um Yeah. So, so sorry. SoulKnives, Psionics from D&D. Anyway. um Yeah, I think, I think there, I think absolutely there is space for those kinds of products. I
Concise Gaming Adventures
01:17:02
Speaker
mean, even like just short adventures and stuff like that, people are looking for what's a cool one shot adventure that I can just buy, pick up and run, you know, for a fun Saturday night with my friends, you know, or that I can string together, you know, as a series, if I wanted to like the, the, um, city guard, you know, stuff that Jenny does. And, and um, um,
01:17:23
Speaker
Yeah, i I guess that's the question. is Did I answer the question? think I did. I think so. i think, I mean, yeah, asked and answered. Yeah, good job. I think there's two two aspects to this, right? One is the design aspect. How do you approach the design for those smaller products?
01:17:39
Speaker
And then the production aspect. How do you... like what is different about the production for those smaller digital products. yeah. I should answer that, I guess. Rather than 300 page physical, you know, we're going to kickstart this and it's going to be the huge, the best setting of our lives and all that.
01:17:59
Speaker
But, you know, I've, I've written adventures, you know, for Pinnacle that are just adventures. Like the, the really best example, I think for that small,
01:18:12
Speaker
We know this is going to be a one-shot product is Disaster at Granatomica, which was written for Suede. And I'm very proud of that one. It's very good, but I think.
01:18:24
Speaker
But ah from a design standpoint, it meant that I had to do everything within that adventure. And
Digital vs. Print Game Production
01:18:32
Speaker
it's only, i don't know, i've i been maybe 10 or 12 pages or something along those lines. And I had to create a world.
01:18:40
Speaker
i had to create a backstory so that we understood the world. And then i had to create the adventure and what we're doing in this world, all within that 12 pages. And that's a different animal than trying to create a 208 page on cluster setting with along with a 208 page on cluster plot point campaign. Yeah. no And I think it's so it's all just simpler and it's it's akin to writing a one sheet versus an adventure, right? You have to do all this in much, much shorter, compressed and inferred way so that
01:19:15
Speaker
you suggest things that the GM then has to infer and then expand. It's like it's it's like a zip file for a setting, right?
01:19:26
Speaker
It's like the GM has to uncompress this thing from what you've written so that they get a sense for what this grander setting slash adventure is from that small thing that you've created. and And that, I think, is a whole different mindset.
01:19:45
Speaker
than trying to create a 308 page book or 308 page book or whatever. And then there's the production aspect, which is of of course a lot simpler if you're going to do digital only.
01:19:57
Speaker
Like you don't have to worry about page count. You don't have to worry about like, yeah you can always add pages. you know It's it's the the restrictions are much, much less.
01:20:08
Speaker
Yeah.
Starting Small for Skill Refinement
01:20:09
Speaker
Unless you restrict yourself. And it's like with the hung cluster jumpstart, I restricted myself to a certain number of pages. i said, it's not going to go past. yes I think, yeah yeah, as far as restrictions go, probably just like the layout is really your biggest restriction.
01:20:26
Speaker
is this going to be an even two pages or whatever it is or 10 pages exactly how the spread set out yeah and like Tracy said you have to worry about signatures how many signatures going in the book how many pages is the signature for I mean ah there's always that and then there's like if you want to add ah Patreon supporters or Kickstarter backers and all that stuff it's hard to do that in a printed book because you only have so many pages and there's There's things that make
01:20:58
Speaker
those pages specific, like 16 page chunks and stuff like that, that like, if I have to go over my 16 page chunk, I'm going to have to pay for 16 pages anyway. Now I have to fill all those 16 pages to get my money worth. So no, I'm not going to go over that 16 page. yeah So it's, it's, those are the differences in terms of print versus digital and small versus big, like obviously smaller is easier. Yeah.
01:21:26
Speaker
yeah And it's a good place to start. And a lot of people start there. yeah And I certainly did start there. I was just writing for somebody else when I was doing it. So I learned inside ah company was already doing it. And so I could learn from the inside about how to do this stuff so that when I did my big thing on my own, I already knew ah not only how to do it, but a lot of the people who could show me how to do the stuff I didn't already know.
01:21:57
Speaker
Um, so yeah,
Feedback on Game Components
01:21:58
Speaker
I don't know that. I don't know if that answers any question, but it's one of those things like, Yeah, it's it it in many ways, it's a smarter way to go to start smaller. the other major advantage is you can be a little bit more forgiving. So especially if it's like one of your first projects and you're you're doing it yourself, um you can be a little bit more forgiving with respect to errors or things that you want to correct or clarify later on because it is digital.
01:22:24
Speaker
You can always update it. You can always update the file. Yep. um But it's it's also it's also a good test bed for experimenting or for learning how to how to write or how to format or whatever it might be.
01:22:37
Speaker
um It's also a great way to play test an idea. So if you have an idea for something bigger that you're working on, you could put a small packaged version of of that piece. Maybe it's arcane background or whatever. Yep.
01:22:50
Speaker
and And package it and and see what the response is to it. Yep, you can. i I tend not to. But other
Gradual Game Release for Feedback
01:22:58
Speaker
people swear by that because they want the feedback on those little pieces.
01:23:02
Speaker
Me, I have this very strong sense of it's a cohesive. I want it to be a cohesive whole before i provide my first impression to everybody.
01:23:17
Speaker
You know, first impressions are everything. and I've just been taught that it's been nailed into me somehow. Yeah. Either either by my by my own doing or by my parents or whoever. first impression you can only make one first impression and so i try to have it finished before i i mean that's how i felt with artificers codex is i was i was terrified putting that out because this was my first quote-unquote product andt and i was like this is it this is where i you know either you know i i just felt like um
01:23:51
Speaker
Yeah, I felt like it could make or break me. Yeah. And and I don't think that's true. It's a dollar product like that I threw together in night. It's a trap.
01:24:02
Speaker
It's a trap to to think that way. yeah And some people do swear by putting out little bits and pieces, by saying serializing it or doing a Patreon where they're doing only a little bit of a time.
01:24:13
Speaker
That's perfectly fine. Perfectly fine. it's it's It's a way to go and to get feedback that way. yeah Me,
Catering to Player Behaviors
01:24:19
Speaker
it's not my way, but it's a perfectly fine way to go. Right. Right. Awesome. I mean, that sounds, yeah, I think I did this a similar thing.
01:24:28
Speaker
I had so much emotionally writing on Seventh Kind. I was like, oh God, if this, if this doesn't go well, I'm, I'm not a writer. I'm not a man. i don't know. i you know, just so much that's right nonsense happening.
01:24:40
Speaker
Question my value as a human being. Yeah, right. Yeah. i yeah The first one is always the hardest. And yeah again, the more you do it, the easier that is. So what confidence you're going to have.
01:24:52
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's so true. All right. And then the last question we have from the from the discord. ah from bread and butter. um Kind of a multi-parter here, but let me i condense it down a little bit. So when you're designing, are you curious as to like how players play? So when you're crafting like a scenario a narrative, does how players play, that does that consideration affect the design approach?
01:25:20
Speaker
And if so, to what degree does that manifest in your design? I mean, absolutely. It does for me. Well, I will say it depends. If we're talking about like, how do we say mitigate, you know, players on the extreme spectrums of like, you know, trying to derail or, you know, steal a scene or whatever.
01:25:44
Speaker
um that's That's one aspect, but the other is also like um designing for people who like maybe heavy tactical or versus heavy role play. so I feel like those are two different issues.
01:25:56
Speaker
um I don't really worry about the people who are going to derail because that's really more of a social problem than it is a design problem. um But I do try to ah provide elements of both like the tacticals, because that's one of the strengths of Savage Worlds. You can do
Character Archetypes in One-Shots
01:26:14
Speaker
the heavy tactical stuff, but you can also do the really good, deep role playing with it as well.
01:26:20
Speaker
um So i I try to make sure there's a little bit of something for everybody in in those respects. Yeah, I do too. And in in it's every time, all all at all times,
01:26:33
Speaker
Whether it's, especially if it's in a one shot, if it's in a one shot, I've got archetypes that are made for that one shot. Almost always, almost always I do that. Yeah. So that each archetype or each ah character has something to do.
01:26:49
Speaker
moment shine. Something that they're going excel at during that adventure. Yeah. Whether it's Fiona in ah The Curious Death of Violet Evans, where she's the occultist, she's the one who can...
01:27:02
Speaker
Help you with the ritual versus um what's his name? Zeus, the athlete who's able to throw baseballs at supernatural baddies or, you know, whatever, or um like they they all have their role.
01:27:18
Speaker
Yeah. And some of them can talk really well. Some of them, like the cheerleader, she's a friendly type who can who's a face, who can talk to the people who have lost their child and try to get them to give information without upsetting them too badly or whatever.
01:27:33
Speaker
Right. Not only do you have these archetypes that have their moment to shine, but you have places where there are multiple ways to get past what you're trying to get past. Sometimes it's sneaking in the back with stealth where there's one character who can shine.
01:27:50
Speaker
And or using ah persuasion to convince somebody to help you. Right. There's multiple paths through these things. Yeah. that is
Breathing Room in Campaigns
01:28:02
Speaker
something I try to keep in mind for a one shot, especially over the course of a campaign.
01:28:10
Speaker
You've got more room to breathe there. So you could have an adventure that's heavy into fighting. Right. Right. And not have like you can have an entire session where, OK, most of this is tactical or we're making plans or having a mass battle or whatever, blah, blah, blah.
01:28:31
Speaker
That that doesn't necessarily give your face character a chance to shine in that adventure. But in another adventure in the campaign where there's social conflicts and stuff like that, that's their moment to shine.
01:28:43
Speaker
Where they, i mean, not only is it a moment for the player to make their arguments and be a good role player, but also for their character to roll their high persuasion skill and make it matter.
01:28:55
Speaker
Right. you know yeah so yes i'm looking for all that i'm looking for a balance of combat versus social conflict versus dramatic tasks with different skill types message repair or stealth or whatever we're trying to do so that a multitude of different types of of approaches can work where possible.
01:29:18
Speaker
And where not possible, we have other places where those approaches can work in different ways. Right.
Multiple Problem-Solving Paths
01:29:25
Speaker
So, yeah, I absolutely worry about that. I think most designers should worry about that. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I agree because because you don't want to have just there's only one way to solve this. Yeah.
01:29:35
Speaker
I remember playing a game. It was a D&D published game. a published D&D adventure where um the expectation from the writer was that there was going to be a rogue who could disarm or unlock this door, right?
01:29:51
Speaker
Disarm the trap. or i can't remember what it was. One of the two. And nobody in the party was a rogue or thief or whatever. There was somebody who was a, I think they were a scout and they had one skill, but not the other.
01:30:06
Speaker
um And they were stuck. And I had, ah as a GM, I had to like figure out, okay, well, what, what you know, I got to make something up here. Yeah. I mean, you got to have the fighter be able to break the door down somehow or somebody be able to sneak through a window somewhere or I don't know what, something.
01:30:25
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, this was in a dungeon. There was no window. Yeah. And there has to be a way. Yeah. Because otherwise things stop in their tracks. Yeah. Right. And, and nobody is shining at all.
01:30:38
Speaker
you know And we feel like we're just we're just, oh, well, we forgot the rogue. And that's awful. ah i mean, i mean to me, it's awful. Maybe maybe to others, it's so that's why it's so important to some D&D players to have that spread of characters so that they can cover these bases.
01:30:58
Speaker
But I don't design that way. Right. Right. I design in a way that there are multiple ways to get through this. And I say upfront in Han Cluster, when you're when you're creating characters, like some of you may be worried about what role you need to fill.
01:31:12
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm telling you as the designer of Han Cluster, don't worry about that. Worry about the role you want to, and you the character you want to inhabit this world with. Right.
01:31:23
Speaker
And they will find a way to solve the problems that I'm going to present. Yeah. And that that might just be speaking to the the design philosophy of like you know, D&D versus Savage Worlds. It could be.
01:31:33
Speaker
It could be, right? And I think there there's a lot of people who like that. Yeah. You know, who like, like, oh, I need a cleric. We always need a cleric. that's like I better play the fighter and I better play the rogue because we're going to need you to sneak And that's true to a certain extent. Like that's what archetypes
Balancing Player Characters
01:31:49
Speaker
are about.
01:31:50
Speaker
Right. Only, you know, they get their chance to shine. But at the same time, like there, I think there needs to be flexibility in in at least some of these problems in ways that you can solve them.
01:32:02
Speaker
Don't punish the players because they're playing a character that they wanted to play. Yeah.
01:32:08
Speaker
You know. And then as far as outliers go, i don't worry about that too much, like Christian said. um I do design around it in in the sense of I have thought experiments with Booth and with Daryl about...
01:32:24
Speaker
Well, what happens if? Yeah. What if somebody cheeses this or whatever? Yeah. somebody cheeses this, what do I do? Is that okay? Can they cheese it? Sometimes it is okay.
01:32:35
Speaker
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's not. And I have to have an answer for it. And do I need to write that answer down for the GM or don't I? Right. In some cases, yes, I do.
01:32:47
Speaker
You know, sometimes if they try to do this, well, there's this that blocks them from doing that. Right. Punch them in the face. No, I mean. ah Not because we want to block them, but because we want because we want balance between the characters so that they all have something to do here. Right.
01:33:04
Speaker
Right. I mean, there's, like Daryl has said, balance between player characters is much more important than balance between the characters and their opposition. Mm-hmm. Because if it feels like one character is best best at everything, those outliers that try to be try to maximize everything that they've got going for them and minimize any problems that they may have or shortcomings they may have, that is a problem.
01:33:30
Speaker
And like Christian said, it is a social problem at the table, but it also to a certain degree needs to be thought of in the design phase. When you are presenting adventures where problems need to be solved, where, okay, if they try to cheese this in this way, I need to have a good answer for that.
01:33:49
Speaker
A good narrative in the game answer for it so that they don't just do it. You know? So I,
Complex Design Problems
01:33:56
Speaker
I'd absolutely think of those things and it's sometimes it keeps me up at night.
01:34:00
Speaker
Yeah. Those are the things that are but design problems that take weeks to solve sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You spin your wheels on them and, yeah you know, it might be necessary to spin your wheels on it.
01:34:11
Speaker
Yeah. Depending on what you're dealing with. But yeah. So I don't know if that answers those questions, but we could probably do a full episode on that, but we're not going to do it. Not anymore you can. Yeah. We can talk about it on the server.
01:34:24
Speaker
We can. Yeah, absolutely. And I think people should reach out if they have other questions. oh absolutely. Yeah. You know, the the whole community you've built has been really fantastic and welcoming. And I think that's... ah you know, maybe a superpower both of you have is is building out just a community of of kind and open people who are all looking to help each other and raise each other up.
01:34:44
Speaker
Thank you. And I really appreciate being a part of that and and and being asked to help send you off on this last one. um A question that I have, and it's probably my last one here is,
01:34:57
Speaker
Is there anything that you guys have started to cover at all during the course of designing problems that you felt a needed one more tweak during the course of it?
01:35:09
Speaker
One thing that you you thought of, oh, oh man, you know I answered this pretty well. There's one thing I didn't add during the episode, and I really wish I had. And I personally think that you guys have done a really good job covering everything.
01:35:22
Speaker
pretty much every single problem area you've asked about. So maybe the answer is no, not at all. And if this file falls flat on its face, that's my fault. It's maybe
Exploring Uncovered Topics
01:35:33
Speaker
not a great question, but is there anything that you know you had like that? Or if not, what's some parting words that you want to give for for your audience out here who love you very, very much and wish the best for you in not only the current endeavors, but your future ones?
01:35:47
Speaker
So ah my answer to that, even though every episode we say, no, I think we covered it. um I always felt like there was always more that, ah you know, that there could be to say about it, about that topic.
01:35:59
Speaker
um Or just just enjoyed talking about it and and would love to continue talking about it. um the one one of those One of my favorite ones was was when we had Chris Valentine on talking about VTTs, because that's, you know, really nerdy stuff. And I love that.
01:36:15
Speaker
um you know I would have loved to just had more time with him just to talk about like ideas or where do you think they're going to go in the future? you know what's What's next? you know What are some of the flaws you know of the current ones that could be better and how? and you know ah could go on and on. on
Listener Appreciation
01:36:31
Speaker
Um, and I think some of the therapy episodes too, I really got a lot out of, and I would have loved to have been able to you know, and we don't do a two hour podcast, you know, but, um, but, but I could talk about that, you know, forever.
01:36:44
Speaker
Um, yeah, you know, like the mental, the mental health one, you know, or taking care of yourself kind of thing, and think was, was a big one too. Um, and as far as like, you know, so any sort of send off kind of a thing, um, ah just a big, huge thank you, you know, for everyone who listened and, uh, for encouraging us and supporting us and, um, and, and being a part of that community.
01:37:09
Speaker
Um, it's one of, you know, it's the reason why we want to keep it going. Cause I, I, we're very, very proud of, of, um, you know the people that are in it, you know, so thank you all.
01:37:22
Speaker
Yeah, I
Role of Art in Gaming Products
01:37:23
Speaker
think um the one of the things I think is is worth more talk about is the art aspect, um art production, art finding artists, all that stuff that we we may not have covered as much as we could have, communicating with artists, all that stuff.
01:37:41
Speaker
um Because it's such a big part, whether you like it or not I just got back from Gen Con like literally a couple of hours ago. And to see the literal bulk of things that are out there and trying to vie for your attention.
01:38:00
Speaker
Art gets your attention. Yeah. And that's how it is. It's how it's always been. And it's how it will continue to be. um There will be communities that engage with certain things and and know what they're looking for when they go to a thing like that. but But if you're looking for attention, you need art.
01:38:20
Speaker
And
Passion-Driven Projects
01:38:21
Speaker
so it it is a larger topic that we didn't delve into as much as we might have otherwise. The other thing that I i want to impress as ah as a parting thought is this podcast, I think, at least from my perspective, has been to try to encourage designers to do what they're passionate about.
01:38:43
Speaker
and ah to create a game that is sort of vertically integrated with both setting and adventure and character and we've talked about this at length about how characters need to be created to work within the adventure we have to have something to do we have to have like we want engagement from a player perspective with their characters so that we can tell a story that is cohesive and meaningful.
01:39:17
Speaker
And i I want to encourage all the designers out there to think in these terms. Even when you're looking at a bottom line that might conflict with that or doesn't care about that,
01:39:31
Speaker
um the i design stuff that i want to play. And I would encourage you all to do the same. Yeah. Whether you're trying to to make money at this or not, because ultimately it's those things that that really shine in terms of well thought out and we have put our passion into it.
01:39:55
Speaker
Those are the things that
Staying Engaged with Community
01:39:56
Speaker
arere going to last. So that's that's what i that's some of my my parting thoughts. And besides that, again, to echo Christian, thank you for listening and thank you for letting Christian and I create a stage that we could talk on because I am very quiet otherwise.
01:40:16
Speaker
And if I don't create a stage for myself, I will just lock myself in a corner and not engage. So thank you for listening. And thanks for for being there and engaging with us. And hopefully that engagement will not end. The discard server is staying there and it's not going away.
01:40:34
Speaker
So you're always welcome to join it. And that's that. John, thank you so much for joining us for this final episode. We are you were our our first consideration, and so we're glad you said yes.
01:40:47
Speaker
um This has been a real joy, and and thank you for being a part of our community. Yeah, thank you, John. Yeah, I love being part of it, and love you guys so much, so thank you so much for inviting me. I had a great time being with you.
01:41:02
Speaker
This going to be the second time I'm going to cry at the end of a podcast.
01:41:07
Speaker
All right. Well, thank you again for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to continue to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server.
01:41:25
Speaker
It's not going away. Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few along the way.
01:41:38
Speaker
Bye-bye, everybody.