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Problem #26: Facing Hard Realities
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This week, Tracy and Kristian Tracy talk about what SHE experienced BEHIND THE SCENES leading up to and during her crowdfunding campaign for Han Cluster, including the breaking out of a full-blown trade war in the middle of the funding period. We pull back the curtain completely on some of the most difficult and stressful aspects of bringing a design project to the marketplace. This is the moment when time, money, sweat and tears all come together in a culmination of discovery: Do we have viable product or don't we? There is no easy way to go through this, especially as a new creator, and since this podcast aims be honest and inform, we wanted to give a fair warning about how difficult this can become so that you can go in with your eyes wide open. At the same time, since we want to inspire as well, we also want to impress that there IS a payoff to all this, you just have to take the leap to get to it.
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The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
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Transcript
Introduction & Episode Focus
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this unpleasant conversation. and this week, we're going to talk about problem number 26, Facing Hard Realities.
00:00:44
Speaker
So, Tracy. Yes. I know you've been excited about your your ah crowdfunding, been stressed about it. Yeah. But I think there are some some there's some transparency I think you owe us.
Facing Realities in RPG Development
00:00:59
Speaker
Okay. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. well no i So, what yeah, what I'm trying to set up here is... um tracecy Tracy wanted to do this episode, and I think it's a good ah good topic, of really getting into the sort of harder truths about this process, particularly with the crowdfunding, but also stuff leading up to the crowdfunding.
00:01:21
Speaker
that correct? yeah Yes. And I think that... Like there was a couple of reasons. One is facing down and in the podcast, ah the episodes that are coming up, which we're going to have to do crowdfunding episodes, at least one or two ah about it.
00:01:39
Speaker
And um I was feeling like, well, you know, we've we've we've spent a lot of time and tried to be very encouraging and optimistic and instill belief in people with this podcast. And we're still going to do that.
00:01:54
Speaker
But I wanted to take a breath and sit and tell you ah that as we move forward, it's going to be these these problems that we face as we move into production and all that kind of stuff are real problems. They're not the made-up problems that we've talked about in the past internal voices in our head, like doubts, all that new stuff. No, no, this is real. This is like logistical.
00:02:21
Speaker
This is real stuff. Logistical, financial, all of that, right? This is this is real stuff that will cause stress and legitimately ah for good reason. And so part of what i wanted to talk about is we're going to be pretty transparent about that.
00:02:39
Speaker
But also we wanted to explore that a little and then tell you why it's worth going through this. Right. Why you have to do this ah for certain for certain outcomes. Right.
00:02:55
Speaker
yeah um So that that's that's really the point of this of this
Challenges of Crowdfunding
00:03:00
Speaker
episode. And i think that both Christian and I can speak to these real life challenges and problems. And I have just been through ah crowdfunding with Han Cluster, which was very successful and I'm very happy with it.
00:03:15
Speaker
But it was it was a rough time. And ah part of it is because it's my first time. Part of it is just because this is the way it is. And because of the risks I just decided to take and all that stuff. And we'll get into some of that.
00:03:31
Speaker
But Christian, where should we start? What's your what's your thought? well and and i also i want Well, two things I want to add. One, by no means do we do we want this to be any kind of discouragement. Yes. We really want it to be more of an encouragement.
00:03:46
Speaker
uh, in the form of these things are hard. They're going to hit you hard, whether emotionally or financially or whatever might be. Um, but it's doable and it's the outcomes can be worth it.
00:04:02
Speaker
Very much worth it. Um, you know and and it's you know If you have the right support, if you have a level head, you know you're rational throughout it, it'll be successful.
00:04:15
Speaker
It'll likely be successful. Barring any you know really random things that just interfere, like life just throws something at you that nobody's expecting.
00:04:27
Speaker
Or trade war breaking out in middle of the your campaign. Well, there's that too. I was going to mention, that was the second thing actually I was going to mention is like, yeah, that's the other thing is, ah and and that's like that's a really good example. It's like these things that we can't control yeah that are just external forces that they may may make or break the success of of of the of your project.
00:04:50
Speaker
Yeah. and i think I think you have to go in knowing that those random things are going to happen. No matter how well prepared you are, at some point there's going to be multiple wrenches thrown into your mechanism and you're going to have to improvise and deal with those things.
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah. The trade war was just one of those things with with the Hong cluster. It was the probably the biggest thing. Yeah. But it was certainly one I didn't plan. I planned for a certain amount of tariff yeah stuff, but not where we are Not
Learning from Crowdfunding Experiences
00:05:27
Speaker
145%.
00:05:27
Speaker
Not 145%. Nobody planned for There was no that. right and so well you know what are you goingnna do yeah but before we get ahead of ourselves um I think you know if this is your first time doing this kind of thing, like from a we can talk about the design. We have talked about the design process and sharing it with others and all that stuff.
00:05:55
Speaker
But when you really start getting into, okay, I want to sell this to people. I hope that it's interesting enough to people that they want to buy it And I want to maybe not make a million dollars, but at least make enough money back that I can pump some of that money back into the product and maybe grow it to the point where I can maybe start making some money.
00:06:20
Speaker
Right. That's the whole point of this, at least for people who are really trying to go that extra mile beyond just sharing it. You know, and so whether it's your first time or your 10th time, um that you what you're trying to do is difficult.
00:06:39
Speaker
It just is. It will get easier the more you do it. Well, yeah, i would i would say from from what I've observed of people who do recurring Kickstarters, I won't mention names, Peg, but they do so many and and we have seen occasions, despite how many they have done,
00:06:59
Speaker
and how prepared they might be and how much they know to anticipate things sometimes still come up. e Right. And so part of it is not just having your plan lockstep and you know exactly what we're going do but just also just being ready for something random to happen and being okay and just learning how to pivot when those things come up.
00:07:21
Speaker
Yeah. And I think I've talked about this, whether it's on the podcast or on another stream where I'm like, I've, I've increased my tolerance for risk by doing this whole thing.
00:07:34
Speaker
um Where i I traditionally have been very risk averse. I'm not an early adopter. I don't take on things early and and get excited about um whatever the new thing is I wait and see how it goes. And then once it's sort of established, then I'll pick up on it Right.
00:07:54
Speaker
Whether that is voice over IP on the internet back in the day when Vonage was a thing. Or like I was slow to adopt these things. I did adopt them, but it was slow.
00:08:06
Speaker
Yeah. Nowadays, because of this, I had to take risks. Yeah. There was no choice. And and that's part of what we're we're talking about here is – crowdfunding has a way of making you wonder why you're doing this.
00:08:24
Speaker
I bet. You know, like it it every aspect of it it it, you've already felt that as you've gone through the design process. Like, oh, is this really worth it? Man, I'm spending a whole lot of time away from my family. i All my free time is absorbed in this, blah, blah, blah.
00:08:40
Speaker
And then you get into the crowdfunding aspect of it. And then financial stuff hits. Yeah. And then the stress hits of whether this is going to be successful, whether you've whether you've put resources into this that will pay off later.
00:08:56
Speaker
Yeah. Really scary stuff. Yeah. And you're constantly gauging, I'm sure, like, where's the cutoff? Where's the line yeah that I draw of when to turn back? Yes.
00:09:06
Speaker
you know Did I already cross it? Or is it right there on the horizon? Yeah. And that, that it it will happen, especially if this is if this is your first one or yeah or an early one, or even if it's even if it's not, that can that can still be a factor. It will will probably will always be a factor to some degree.
00:09:29
Speaker
Because, i mean, every move you make feels like there's an obstacle in front
Decision-Making in Campaigns
00:09:34
Speaker
of you. And there's something to learn around every corner, whether whether you're creating marketing material or not not even marketing, if you're creating images for the Kickstarter, right?
00:09:47
Speaker
Do you know how to do that? Right. Like I had to, I knew i had learned enough Photoshop to know some of the techniques, but how do I create a pledge level image?
00:10:00
Speaker
Yeah. How do I create a, a stretch goal image? How do I create a product image and which particular pieces of art are going to speak most to people? Yeah. I was going to mention that stuff. Like it's, it's every decision you make. Right.
00:10:18
Speaker
It seems critical. yeah And it's it's it it can it can wear you down. i I honestly could see myself just on like what are pieces to use and just spending way too much time overanalyzing each piece of like, okay, is does this really going to be the thing that draws people in or do do they want to see action? Do they want to see sets? Do they want to see characters?
00:10:46
Speaker
You know, they they want to see all of the above. do I need like ensemble type photos or do I just, you know, or not photos, but illustrations. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. I can imagine just the the ago agony of hyperanalyzation. is agony. yeah And you will learn as you go. And people will have lots and lots of opinions.
00:11:09
Speaker
And yeah ah at the end of the day, you have to decide. Yeah. Right. there There is no shortcut to you having to make the decision.
Investment & Budgeting in RPG Projects
00:11:18
Speaker
Yeah. And this is one decision after another.
00:11:22
Speaker
Whether it's how, how my, you know, uh, uh, add on images work and how much to charge for things. And we can talk a little bit about that. Um, but, or, or, yeah,
00:11:36
Speaker
In the pledge manager, which add-ons to add for surveys, which to put in the pre-order store, how much to charge things, like what the descriptions are, hype, hype, hype, making all the descriptions. And i it's just everything isn't is is one after the other decision, effort.
00:11:58
Speaker
And um learning how to do this. Right. Yeah. It can just wear you down. Yeah. And depending on your ambitions, it can feel like at some point you've you've crossed a line of risk that you didn't mean to cross. Right.
00:12:19
Speaker
You know what I mean? um Or maybe you maybe you did mean to, but... Yeah, yeah. Or you're second guessing yourself. Yeah, right. Exactly. It's the second guessing that, because that will happen.
00:12:31
Speaker
Yes. That will absolutely happen. It will happen. Second, third, fourth, fifth... Yes. Yeah. You'll, you'll get advice from people. you'll be like, okay, now I think I know what to You'll follow some of that advice or come up with something that's in between and then you'll still question it. And yes, you know, on forth. Is this the right thing? Is this the best thing?
00:12:48
Speaker
Is this going to make or break my project? It is, I mean, yeah when When it comes to making or breaking your project, yeah um the details are everything, right? i mean And we'll get into that when we get into the crowdfunding, first crowdfunding episode. Details, details, details. like yeah Clarity, clarity, clarity.
00:13:10
Speaker
But um it's it it you can get to the point where you've decided to take a certain level of risk and once you get there, you've you've you're up to that line of do I cross this line of no return?
00:13:28
Speaker
Like i this is what I set myself up for. I've decided on this level of risk. right i've I've worked for two years to get here. Am I ready to cross this line and take that risk? Because once I cross it, I can't go back.
00:13:44
Speaker
You can't go back. Right. You're either going yeah on the way out is through or you die in the tunnel. One of the two. That's what it feels like. yeah And I think that's what it is.
00:13:54
Speaker
Yeah. Right. the trade war thing was that was one of those hallmark decisions that had to be made. Let me ask you this. They with with that as an example.
00:14:08
Speaker
Mm hmm. you know the trade war thing starts happening, you talking about tariffs and whatever. What were the decisions, what were the choices that you gave yourself, if you don't mind no divulging?
00:14:21
Speaker
um And then how did how did you come to a decision? Well, at first it was, I was prepared to do, have 25% tariffs from up from the very beginning before, before crown funding started, i was prepared for 25%. I had a quote.
00:14:35
Speaker
I was okay. Like I was, I was like, okay, I think, I think this can work. I think we can do this. And then it raised up to 54%. And this was after launch, I believe.
00:14:50
Speaker
And i was like, 54, I don't know. i don't know. And then it wasn't days later that it to you know, 145%. Right.
00:15:08
Speaker
And and i was like, well, this is this is crazy. this is This is too much. Right. And then I was thinking, maybe I should cancel. i was I was really, really consider i was really considering it. But I knew I had people to talk to before I did that. I knew that I i had Booth, I had Shane, I had Daryl, I had Simon, I had people who knew better.
00:15:40
Speaker
what the consequences of canceling are and what the benefits of canceling are. Right. Because Shane has done it before. ah They've done it multiple times, both with Ghost Mountain and Shane did a Conan miniatures one that he finally ended up canceling. Right. Before it was over.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah. when I talked to them, they were like, no, don't cancel. Okay. before I talked to them, i was a fifty fifty s so So real quick, I do want to acknowledge that this is a very fortunate ah um circumstance that you have yes them as resources. Because not everybody has that. Like people who have done this over and over and over and over again, who can give you advice based on experiences, knowledge, and and so on.
00:16:29
Speaker
um So that's amazing that you're very fortunate to have that. Yeah. yeah But even if if it was on my own,
00:16:40
Speaker
I don't know what I would have done. And the reason why is. let me ask Let me ask this then. if If you didn't talk to Simon or Shane or anybody, right?
Motivations & Fears in RPG Creation
00:16:51
Speaker
Daryl probably would still be around, obviously. um Where were you leaning?
00:16:58
Speaker
That was, like I said, i was 50-50. Okay. Okay. Because
00:17:05
Speaker
I was leaning toward canceling. But I also knew that this in this particular situation, trade war happening, consumer confidence going down.
00:17:16
Speaker
Right. Will I be able to do this again? Will I be able to get this much in my crowdfunding campaign anytime soon?
00:17:27
Speaker
Or you just keep the momentum that you have. Or do I keep what I've got yeah and again double down and keep going? Yeah. Yeah. right That was the calculus that was in my head when I was at 50-50. Okay.
00:17:40
Speaker
Because, and i I think I was right not to cancel because um i don't i don't know what it would be like if I did.
00:17:53
Speaker
My fear was that Honk Lester would be dead. That the 10 years I put into it, That the the last couple years of really putting my everything financially and in my soul into this game would die a death of digital only.
00:18:14
Speaker
Right. And it would go out there. people a couple some people would buy it and then it would it would slowly fade away. Right, right. That was my worst fear.
00:18:26
Speaker
Which happens because, I mean, i know there's there's a number of great Savage Worlds products that have come out over the years that are available digitally or print on demand. And, you know, of course, people talk about it around the time that it's released, maybe for about like six months or so, you know, after.
00:18:43
Speaker
And then after a while, nobody's talking about it. right And i am I was like, it it may may still die, right? It may still. i may I may have books out there and I'll have a print run and I'll get people to buy some stuff and all that stuff. It may still die because it just does, right?
00:19:01
Speaker
But I have a chance now. yeah If I didn't do it, I didn't think I would have a chance. Right. And I didn't know whether if I canceled, if I would be able to bring this back to crowdfunding with any kind of confidence anytime soon. Right.
00:19:19
Speaker
Could have another year or two. not Not to go on this tangent. i'm I'm thinking about this more and more about the whole, like, hey, let's say you did go digital only. Does it necessarily have to die? Because I've seen some products also survive yeah so long as they're producing new material yeah for it.
00:19:35
Speaker
Right? And it it can. It can. But...
00:19:40
Speaker
And this is the this is the thing about crowdfunding. We can get into this when we talk about our – in the next episode when we talk about crowdfunding. yeah Like whether you go POD or ah print run or just digital only, there are advantages and disadvantages to each.
00:19:55
Speaker
But in my case, because I had planned to do a print run from the very beginning. Right. um I had put all my eggs in that basket.
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah. And not unreasonably so until a trade war broke out. So, and it was, it was like, well, uh, if I, if I scale back now, i'm I'm just afraid that even if I continue to put out product, which is the plan, maybe I can crowdfund later, but it will stunt The initial excitement and growth of Han cluster from the very beginning, it will it will just torpedo it.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah. And I think there is a a perspective that sometimes people... You know consumers might have like, oh, this is that project that didn't fund or that got canceled. You know, is this really going to be, so you know, people start to doubt it or they think not less in terms of quality, but less in terms, like just it's not on the top of their mind.
00:20:58
Speaker
Yeah. there's a there's a There's some of that too. but I've been to i've been to um seminars at Gen Con where they talk about, okay, what happens when you cancel? Canceling is sometimes the right choice right because x number of factors, right? And the backers will appreciate your honesty and appreciate being able to, you know, and they'll come back later. And they they're very they were very encouraging. But at the same time, i think there's something to be said for that loss of momentum.
00:21:26
Speaker
Right. Especially when you're a new creator and the confidence is tenuous at best. Right. i've got I've got to show that I'm going to do this.
00:21:37
Speaker
Yeah. And not not stupidly. It's still the right choice to cancel if you can't do it. But I could do it. right like I'm like, no, no, um i've I've got enough funding here that I can, if worst case scenario, I can supplement with my own funds and get the print run done, which gives me product to sell.
00:21:59
Speaker
Yeah, i was going to mention that. Right. Because we've talked about that where, yeah you know you or you've mentioned in particular that even if you're you're you know spending some of your own money, you're going to have this stock that you can sell over years or yeah however
Cost of Production & Artistic Investment
00:22:14
Speaker
long. Yes.
00:22:15
Speaker
um I'll have source books that are still source books, even when I expand the setting. So when I do another crowdfunding for another PowerPoint campaign, I will have books to sell yes from the original crowdfunding campaign because I paid for that print run.
00:22:32
Speaker
Now you can always do all this in digital, but
00:22:39
Speaker
if you can if you can get it printed ah at a reasonable price... You stand to make more money and have more legitimacy if you have physical products.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah. You're right. There's a legitimacy aspect. you know You go to a convention, there's a booth, your book is there on the table or whatever. Um, and it I spent, I spent $2,200 on the front art covers. Right. $2,200 for those.
00:23:13
Speaker
Wow. I want a book. Goddamn right. want something on a table at a convention that people will look at and say, Ooh, that's cool.
00:23:24
Speaker
Yeah. What's this? I can afford to spend $45 on a book. Right. I mean- And that's that's something else we've talked about is ah is the the the perception of price points between a PDF and a book.
00:23:38
Speaker
Right? the The perceived value yeah that you know customers will will place on a PDF. It's the same material, the same value in terms of like what you get out of it and the experience at the table with your friends or whatever.
00:23:53
Speaker
But people still regard a PDF as less than, right? A lot of people do. Some people don't, right? And some people will say it to high heaven, all I want is digital. And that's fine. yeah But the the way the world is right now, still, is that there's more perceived value in a physical product.
00:24:11
Speaker
Yeah. I really do wonder, depending on what happens with this trade war, um if perceptions might change. if If book prices go way too high because printing has to be done locally or or, you know, it's too expensive to do it locally, it's too expensive to import from China, you know, like will will consumers be like, well, maybe digital is not that bad.
00:24:35
Speaker
Well, I think they will if we can come up with some kind of e-book format that's standardized and reasonable and like kind of like what D&D is doing with D&D Beyond. If we have some kind of way to do that, right now that infrastructure is not there. It's just the same same analogy of we don't have – printing houses in the in the US who can reasonably produce what we're trying to produce at ah and ah and um right and a rate that we can afford.
00:25:06
Speaker
don't have the infrastructure. Not with the cards and tokens whatever else. Yeah. Exactly. yeah So it's the same with eBooks. We don't have the infrastructure yet. If somebody can make that infrastructure for us, that we like... Because eBook is all over the place in terms of format and you're more of an expert as in this than are.
00:25:26
Speaker
Like the readers themselves are so out there. Yeah. They're either minimalist or you can put your own, you know own styles as a reader. you know, you you can configure your styles or.
00:25:37
Speaker
There's just no consistency. There's no consistency at all. Yeah. And if we had something that, that, that was functional, more functional than the PDF that people were excited to get and had, and felt like there was value in.
00:25:51
Speaker
we might be able to replace printed books. Right. Right. That's what I think. I could be wrong. No, no. I think i think you're absolutely right. Because right now what we have are proprietary markets. Like, you know, there is, what is it, Demiplane?
00:26:05
Speaker
they They do something similar to D&D Beyond. in fact, I think it's some one or some of the same people from the D&D Beyond, the original D&D Beyond team. are doing demi-plane but they've been bought by roll 20 slash obs uh if i recall correctly and so that and you know it's yeah it's proprietary they own that it's not a standard yeah you know that anybody can can publish to um so of course they're going to get their cut and you know whatever um Do you think the lack of, I don't want to get too nitty gritty with this with regards to local, you know, domestic printing.
00:26:42
Speaker
Do you think that lack of being able to do all the things like, you know, some um producers in China can do, is that a nobody's just tapped into that market yet? Or is it, it's just not feasible type of thing?
00:26:58
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I, I mean, I imagine it's just like the other infrastructures that we have that are not fully here or fully in the U S right. Where we don't need them because we have them offshore.
00:27:15
Speaker
So therefore nobody is investing in them and it's it's too expensive to invest in them because the offshore stuff is so cheap. So that's part of the problem of the trade war to begin with. And I understand that I get,
00:27:27
Speaker
Like the of the fundamental underlying issue going on here. the the The technique that they're using to correct it is insane. Right. But i get I get the fundamental problem. Right. But I have no idea. I'm not plugged in enough to know.
00:27:46
Speaker
um why that infrastructure isn't there or whether, I mean, there there are people who do it, but it's just so expensive. it's It's very expensive. And it's um and ironically, a lot of them still get parts from overseas yeah right to do that. So it's like yeah materials or whatever it might be, they still come from overseas or the machines they use still come from overseas and whatever.
00:28:10
Speaker
So I don't know. I just don't know. Yeah. because in a It'll be interesting to see one unfolds over the coming years. Yeah. We'll, we'll see. We'll see.
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah. But I do want to like another sort of, before we get into the, is it worth it part? Yeah. i I want to talk a little bit about those finances because these are, this is, this is a real problem.
00:28:36
Speaker
This is, I mean, it's not a problem. It's, it's, it's just the challenge. It's, it's the stress of it because, know, but Talking about Hong Cluster all by itself, I'm giving you real numbers here. And because you're listening to this podcast, we're opening the curtain wide, right?
00:28:53
Speaker
um I spent around $12,000 to $13,000 for art for the Hong Cluster before crowdfunding began. Right. Because I wanted to finish it before crowdfunding began.
00:29:08
Speaker
That's just art. I spent... Some amount in graphic design. I spent some amount, ah obviously, on the tools that I need to do this stuff, like Adobe Creative Suite and all that other stuff. That's all part of this, right?
00:29:25
Speaker
That's to say nothing about the time that I've put in to actually create this stuff. So monetarily, the most expensive thing has been the art. Yes. Okay.
00:29:36
Speaker
If you don't count my time. Yeah. And you you shouldn't. i want I want to emphasize that because i i but they're there's this thing that bothers me about fans who want more art in books and then complain about books being too expensive but and it that really just say it pisses me off because it's like you can't have both you can't have a cheap book and a lot of art you know you can't have an entry for every entry or an art piece for every entry in your bestiary without that book cost going up
00:30:11
Speaker
Yeah, and you know there's the economy of scale. like i' yes I'm a relatively small creator. Therefore, my $13,000 of art is more than Pinnacle's $13,000 of art for that same book.
00:30:24
Speaker
Right. Because they're gonna sell more. Now, if you're Wizards of the Coast and you're going to sell millions upon millions upon millions of copies, then yes, you're going to easily see the return on that investment in art.
00:30:37
Speaker
Yes. But if you're literally looking at thousands... Not so much. I mean, you may, you probably will, but depending, you know. Yeah, it's it's hard. it's It's harder. And, and you know, the the the detractors will say, well, okay, you're smaller press, then don't spend that much on art. Well, then I'm at the risk of not selling.
00:30:58
Speaker
and that Right. You get criticisms and reviews where people say, oh there's lacking, it's lacking art. Yeah. It's like, okay, sorry, you have to use your imagination for a game of make-believe. Or i do it.
00:31:10
Speaker
I'll look at, I'll look at drive-thru RPG stuff and look at the previews and go, hmm. Yeah. You know, it's, it, it, whether it's art or the layout or whatever. well it draws you in.
00:31:21
Speaker
Yeah. It'll stop me. Yeah. You know, I can't help it. Yeah. You know, and and i'm I'm trying to support creators. but You're part of the problem, Tracy. I am. part of the problem. But it's not that its its it's it's not that I expect to pay less. It's more that I'm like, this is, i i'm I can't help it. I'm going to be attracted to something that's more visually pleasing. And the art sells the product, whether you like it or not.
00:31:46
Speaker
Whether you like art or not. Yeah. The aggregate tells us that the art sells the product. those That $2,200 I spent on the covers, absolutely worth it.
00:31:57
Speaker
yeah I have no regrets about that money.
Marketing Strategy & Its Impact
00:32:00
Speaker
yeah None. Or any of the money I spent on art for Hunt Cluster. Just personally, i would rather have less art than more bad art.
00:32:09
Speaker
Just throwing that out there. Okay. Yeah. Fair. And that's, that's, that's something to consider in crowdfunding and production too, because if you have the cover, if you have a good cover that goes a long way, the rest of the art cannot be as good.
00:32:29
Speaker
It can, it can, it can be, you know, cheaper, less than, i mean, it can, it's okay. As long as you've got that thing, that's going to drive people in say, Ooh, I want to play that.
00:32:42
Speaker
Full color cover, you know, grayscale line art or black white line art, you know, whatever inside is, I'm fine with that as long as it's good. Right. If I have, if it looks like amateur artists, I, I have a hard time with that.
00:32:58
Speaker
Yeah, you're part of the problem too then. I am. I am. I am. But that's what I mean. I would rather less art than a lot of, you know, bad art. But that's, and you know, Han Cluster was about...
00:33:13
Speaker
The blinding and about auric shifting and color. You need that color. All that stuff. I need that color. I need it there. I needed to have good art. Yeah. I had to have it. And and it was also it was all part of my plan. was all part of the risk that I took.
00:33:28
Speaker
So that's the beginning of it. And then, of course, advertising. iowa got lucky. For the crowdfunding campaign, I'd say total in advertising for meta ads and such, I've only spent about $1,500. That's pretty good. It's not bad.
00:33:46
Speaker
That's pretty good. And for what I got out of it, you know what I mean? And there there are more just expenses that happen. which I mean, editing, that wasn't cheap either and totally worth it, but not cheap.
00:34:03
Speaker
Because getting a good editor is hard. Yes. And the editor you have is very good. She is very good. She's very good. yes And um it's worth it. It's an expense that's worth it. You need it especially if you're going to print a thousand books.
00:34:16
Speaker
Yeah. You know? So that $19,000 I made, when you consider how much I put up front, is okay. Okay.
00:34:31
Speaker
It's okay. It's not great. And when when you're looking at it from ah from a consumer perspective, you're going, oh, $19,000. Oh, you did great. I'm like, I did good. Right. I did enough. Your goal was only this and you made this much. it's like, yeah, there's some play there though, you know. um how How honest do you want to be about about what you really needed, like for it to be really like, you know, yes, I'm very happy with this. I think, i think like I say, people here are listening.
00:35:00
Speaker
And i think that's I think we owe that to the people who are listening to the podcast. And and
Funding Goals & Success Perceptions
00:35:05
Speaker
I think it's it's a hard number to say because I'm going to have extra product to sell.
00:35:12
Speaker
So even if I don't make all my money back with the crowdfunder, I'll have product that I can make that money later. And then, of course, the crowdfunder is only the beginning of the money. Once you've got a pre-order store up and you do add-ons in the surveys, there's going to be more money that trickles in.
00:35:29
Speaker
Right. And you start putting it on drive-thru. going to be more money that comes in that way. And you're not like a corporation where they're dealing with like quarterly revenue or, you know, annual revenue, you know, and and things like where they have to have certain marks that they have to hit.
00:35:43
Speaker
No, This is like your time as far as when you earn that money back. So that yeah that relieves a lot of stress. I'm not, I don't have shareholders. Right. You don't have shareholders. I am the shareholder. And um I am an LLC, so I am a business and I've got a, Yeah. do all that And the thing is, that's a benefit for this.
00:36:00
Speaker
But um so getting to the point of like, okay, the the funding goal was 3000, which was way low. And the reason to do it way low is to get excitement about the project early on.
00:36:13
Speaker
People see that it's funded. They go, okay, it's happening. I'm going to jump on board. i have confidence. We're going to do this. If you put your funding goal too high, And it sort of um peters out in the first 48 hours and you don't fund.
00:36:29
Speaker
Yeah. Then you got trouble. Right. Because the the confidence goes away. People say, oh, it may fund, it may not. I'm going to pass on this one. Right?
00:36:40
Speaker
What's interesting is is there's always the strategy, too, of just, let me just go ahead and put my money in now, depending on when when the platform charges. That's important, too. Because it could be a thing of, like, at the end, it's not going to fund, I don't lose anything. Yeah, that's it's not hitting the stretch goals I don't want.
00:36:57
Speaker
Maybe I'll pull my funds out. Yep. that's That's all true. That's all true. and And it's hard to say what individual consumers will do, but on the aggregate, people like to be excited about the project.
00:37:10
Speaker
So excitement means funding early. and having stretch goals that are attainable yes and that unlock regularly. Right, right. This was all part of the plan going into the honk class. There has to be a cadence to that.
00:37:23
Speaker
Yes. yeah I mean, that's that's what you want. That's what you want. You don't want ah you know funding in five days or ten days or whatever and then maybe getting one or two stretch goals.
00:37:36
Speaker
The ideal that you want funded and you know 26 minutes, which is what happened with the Hong Cluster, and then stretch and then you know you unlock five or six stretch goals the first 48 hours.
00:37:49
Speaker
That's what you want. Because people then are excited about it and they'll keep coming back to it and you know they'll tell people about it. like It's a whole thing that happens.
00:38:01
Speaker
And that's what happened with Hong Cluster. Thank thank God. Yeah. Right. Right. know so So what was the, I don't know, maybe you said it already. What was the number, if you don't mind?
00:38:12
Speaker
Yes. The number that you really, really wanted. Yeah. Hard to say um because I'll have product to sell after. Yeah. But the number I really, really wanted, like theyve been it would have been like a fist pump in the air and like I did it, especially after the trade war happened was Mm-hmm.
00:38:32
Speaker
so So almost because of the trade war happening. Yes. It would have been lower yeah if if tariffs weren't crazy. Right. But that said, i was by the end, i was really hoping to get to 20K. Right.
00:38:47
Speaker
yeah And I didn't, but still 19 is great. I'm not complaining. Like I said, that's plenty. I'm going to probably have to supplement, but we'll see. We'll see what what happens. I don't know yet, but either way it's going to happen.
00:39:03
Speaker
I've got options. I've got multiple options out there to make sure this happens. But um that was the 30 K was my fist pump celebration.
00:39:15
Speaker
um And 20K after the tariffs had been set and near the end of the campaign, i was i was hoping I'd get to 20. I didn't, but um I think without a trade war breaking out in the middle of my campaign, i would have hit 25.
00:39:31
Speaker
Because consumer confidence, i watched people I watched people cancel. I watched people reduce their pledges because of confidence. And I understand that. I totally get it. But it was heartbreaking to watch. Yes.
00:39:43
Speaker
Especially because it was right in the last 48 hours that that was happening. I was watching the total go down for a day. Wow. Which is the last thing it should have that should happen yeah at the end of a crowdfunder. Right, right. Usually it's it's a ramp up.
00:39:59
Speaker
Yeah, it did go up. It did finally start to go up, but it was it was heartbreaking to watch that. Yeah. And it's it's hard to say that now because I know people are excited about it and they're like, but 19,000 is great. And it is great.
00:40:13
Speaker
Yes. It could have been more. And that's that's where my that's where my disappointment comes in. So privately, you and I have had conversations about what is success but way before you you started the backer kit, right?
00:40:28
Speaker
And what is success for you, right, in general? And for you, it was, it's on my shelf. It's in some people's hands and they're enjoying it.
00:40:39
Speaker
Yep. do you Do you still feel that way? and Do you feel like that that still would have been success? Yes. And you're still very then, I'm assuming you're then very happy with that. Absolutely.
00:40:50
Speaker
When people people, when I get to actually engage with the product and not the production aspects of it, it's super exciting to watch people get excited about this product.
00:41:01
Speaker
Because I'm like, I've been holding this behind a wall for years. Right. Because it's not done. It's not done. It's not done. And once somebody like Jody finally got to read the whole book and reacted to the whole book, I was very heartened and excited.
00:41:19
Speaker
And I think that's going to happen to a lot of the backers that backed the project.
Creative Determination & Project Success
00:41:24
Speaker
that's awesome. Because I really do think it's very good. Like, it's the best I can do. And i feel like I'm pretty good. Yeah.
00:41:32
Speaker
And it' I mean, i'm I'm just saying, like I've put everything into this and I think it's very good. And I'm excited, super excited that's awesome to let people see it. It's all ready to go. It's sitting there on DriveThruRPG as hidden products right now. And I'm waiting for my money to come in boom so that I can give it to people.
00:41:54
Speaker
That's awesome. and Or at least the source book. The adventure book is still in editing. but um But um'm yes, that is that is the goal. It still was the goal. It still continues to be the goal that people get it and hopefully play it and hopefully engage with it in whatever way is best for them.
00:42:12
Speaker
If they want to steal ghosted x ghost mechanics and put it into their horror game wherever awesome cool yeah that's what they want to do fantastic they want to engage with my setting the way it's written fantastic whatever whatever it is i want to see what people do with it and that's that's that's the the goal and i think it's happening and i'm so glad that i didn't back out And then I didn't give in to that stress and those tears and and that frustration of feeling like I was being torpedoed by my own country to get this out.
00:42:48
Speaker
Because i know that it is going to come out and I'm hoping that it will become bigger than I anticipate. But I've given it ah given it a chance anyway. Yeah, yeah. So stepping back to what we were saying earlier.
00:43:03
Speaker
you know with with um yeah I think that's a very healthy outlook. it It can be scary. It can be painful. All these things, you know trying to trying to do this crowdfunding.
00:43:14
Speaker
And I think the outlook that you had of like, if this gets into three people's hands and they absolutely love this and I get to have a copy on my shelf, I'm good. Yeah. I think that's awesome.
00:43:26
Speaker
I shared a video on our Discord server. think it was like last week and it was something I just came across. It was ah it was an interview with Trent Reznor of Nine Chnails. Everybody knows love Nine Chnails.
00:43:38
Speaker
And ah he was talking about how during Pretty Hate Machine, he was, you know, this like one of his first shows that he's ever done. And he's like up there singing. He's just like, God, you know, this is crazy.
00:43:50
Speaker
just kind of trying to get through with the show, right? And he sees in the back, there's this guy screaming the lyrics to head like a hole at him. And he he ah he says he got goosebumps and was just like, okay, if this all ends right now, if this is as far as I go and this is as much as I can do with this thing, that's all worth it.
00:44:13
Speaker
yeah Like that right there, that just reaching one person and having one person impacted by something I created, is worth it. And I was like, wow.
00:44:24
Speaker
It's true. And I've had that experience with the stuff I've created before where I'm like, I know I've, I know I touched somebody. I know I touched this person, this person, this person, this person. Right. And it is worth it.
00:44:36
Speaker
Yeah. It, it, it, it is. And I know beyond a doubt, Honkluster will do that too. I have no doubt about it.
00:44:47
Speaker
Oh, it has already. What i'm hoping for is that it will become bigger than that. and i've And the whole point of why it's worth it, why it was worth it for me to go through all this was to give it a chance, not a guarantee, but to give it the best chance that I could.
Transparency & Emotional Journey
00:45:06
Speaker
If I had backed down or if I'd gone digital only, I feel like I would have wasted the chance. Yeah. And that would have been a huge regret.
00:45:17
Speaker
Yeah. So I guess, you know, what is the point of all this is
00:45:28
Speaker
we're trying to be very candid about this process in this podcast. And ah before we got super candid, we wanted to have this discussion. Yeah.
00:45:41
Speaker
And you've now seen us pull back that curtain completely. Yeah. um with some of the secrets of crowdfunding, the way it works, the way ah creators use it, and the way I used it, and the success that I've had with it.
00:45:58
Speaker
And thank God, because that the day before I hit launch, I was a wreck, Christian, a complete and utter wreck. And ah Poor, I think Boof was out of town at the time, so I was all by myself. I remember. I felt completely alone. I remember, yeah.
00:46:17
Speaker
Because there was, I had Daryl, obviously, I had the people around me, but he's not doing it. Right. He's not sitting there behind the button having done all this prep work, all these images I created, all this this this marketing text I had to create, all these decisions I had to make about the facts of the project and how to deal with print fulfillment and what my refund policy Have I made the right choices? Hundreds of choices I had to make. I had to make them myself.
00:46:50
Speaker
Yeah. And i was a wreck. And then once it launched, it was exhilarating and stressful at the same time. But I saw that it was going to happen.
00:47:01
Speaker
I saw right away. We funded in 26 minutes. I saw that we were $10,000 in the first eight hours. I was like, this is going to happen. Thank God. I remember reaching out to It didn't go away until it was over.
00:47:14
Speaker
i yeah I remember reaching out to you like, Tracy, are you feeling better? And you were like, uh... Like you're funded. Yeah, no, and I was, I was fine. I was doing fine and I knew I was doing fine, ah but it didn't go away into no no until it closed. And it took a couple days of of lingering existential dread before I finally felt.
00:47:38
Speaker
okay, I can actually do something else for a little while because I'm actually way ahead of the game here. I can play a card game right now and not worry about it. Not worry about it. Because the whole time, you don't know, like something random could just come in and throw everything off.
00:47:53
Speaker
Yeah. At any point in time. And it did. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. I guess technically it did. Yeah. yeah So, yeah. Anyway, that i don't know. who There it is.
00:48:05
Speaker
There it is. And now next week we'll talk about crowdfunding. Like we'll get into some of the, some of the specifics of it. Let me ask you a question. One last question before we sign off for the show, for this episode, what would it, what would it have taken for you to pull the plug for you to say, no, I do need to turn back.
00:48:30
Speaker
ah Well, the, the most obvious thing is if it I mean, this would have been the worst case. Worst case scenario is if it didn't fund in the first 48 hours, I would have pulled a plug.
00:48:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's fair. That's right. Because that's a pretty strong indicator of whether something's- Yeah. And that means that I did something wrong. Something's wrong, right. Right?
00:48:53
Speaker
Either I misjudged the audience and interest of it- Right. Or the tears weren't right or- The tears weren't right or the whole concept isn't right or isn't for people. They're just not interested or whatever.
00:49:06
Speaker
That was my worst fear going in. Yeah. is to see, oh, okay, i'm i'm i've revealed I've revealed this. And now people see it for what it is. Like all these people have been following me and they're super excited about it. Now i'm I'm imagining them all becoming disillusioned and going, oh, is that what it is Oh, this is crap. This is kind of sucky. I don't want that.
00:49:28
Speaker
that was That was the worst nightmare. But you know you've run these games at cons for long enough. and Yeah. Enough people have seen it already that the excitement around it was legitimate.
00:49:43
Speaker
so Yes. Yeah. But if, I mean, 19,000 was enough, but if it, if it ah you know, wouldn't have been. yeah Right. Because the but I've got a print order to pay for.
00:49:58
Speaker
You know, on top of all the art, I've paid for all the upfront costs. I've still got a print order to pay for. And I have minimum amounts. Yeah. Right.
00:50:08
Speaker
And the Kickstarter is built on a print order. So I would have had to cancel and say, okay, am I going to go to digital only? Am I going to go to POD instead? Yeah. At a certain level, I would have had to
Podcast Milestones & Community Engagement
00:50:21
Speaker
do that.
00:50:21
Speaker
Yeah. But I didn't have to do that. You did not. And it's happening. Congratulations, by the way. i didn't Thank I think I've said that yet. I mean, I've said it to you personally, I think, but yeah. But thank you very much. I really appreciate Cool. And thanks to everybody who listens to this podcast and listens to my yammerings and our yammerings about it and all the people who supported me throughout the years.
00:50:49
Speaker
This is a milestone. Yeah. Speaking of milestones... Oh, yeah. So this is our 26th episode, Christian. What does that mean? That means ah you suckered me for far longer than I thought you would have. Yes, I did. No, this has been, this this this yeah, 26th episode. um That's weekly, right? that's Yeah, except for the very beginning. Except for the very beginning, right.
00:51:16
Speaker
um But it's been I mean, it's i've the the I think the response that we've gotten has been fantastic. I still get people reaching out. ah Carl Kiesler actually recently, because I'm trying to, well, he and I are going to be working on something else for Campaign Cartomancy, finally. Awesome.
00:51:33
Speaker
um And, you know, even he was like, I've been listening to the show. It's great. I love And I'm like, great, because we want to have you on at some point. Yeah. Oh, yeah. so Graphic design. we're go Yeah. so So whenever I hear that, I love it.
00:51:47
Speaker
it it It feels so good to know that this has... uh that's been a value like real value to to other designers and aspiring designers yes so even if it's just uh the more experienced designers out there going oh these guys are idiots but yeah i'm gonna listen anyway because yeah i want to watch the train wreck right enjoy the show folks see the carnage but but so yeah, six months, half a year. Yeah.
00:52:19
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's still going. And, um, and thanks thanks for, know, I've said it before, but thanks for bringing me along. wow I appreciate it for coming along. I couldn't do it by myself. I mean, you could. It'd just you know be weird for you talking to yourself the it would be weird.
00:52:36
Speaker
All right. Thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs or roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server.
00:52:52
Speaker
Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few along the way.