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Problem #35: Virtual Table Tops
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This week, Kristian and Tracy invite virtual table top guru, developer, and overall awesome guy, Chris Valentine to talk about the promise and perils of virtual table tops. The discussion ranges from what's out there, what's possible, what's doable, and what perhaps is too much. We talk about VTTs from a designer's perspective, and what we need to do to get our work into module format, how they get developed for the various platforms, pricing, and more.
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Transcript
Introduction and Hosts
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this undeniable
Focus on Virtual Tabletops (VTTs)
00:00:18
Speaker
reality. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 35, the virtual tabletop.
00:00:43
Speaker
have And expert here with us because we're all experts. expert. Another expert. We have Chris Valentine, also known as CryptWrite. He's a coder, web designer, VTT module creator, and a specialist in multi-table con games, which I want to hear more about, but that's not what this episode's
Chris Valentine's Background
00:01:02
Speaker
about.
00:01:02
Speaker
We have you here to talk about VTT content or virtual tabletops and all the things that go into that. So... So what are what are your what are your... Welcome, Chris.
00:01:15
Speaker
Welcome. Yes, welcome. before We're very excited and happy to have you here, by the way. We've met before, so i' I'm excited to be talking to you again. And um yeah, you're cool guy, man. I've gamed with Chris. i've I've talked extensively with Chris. We have we have ah conspired together on multiple occasions.
00:01:36
Speaker
And um Chris, what is your what is your history and ah involvement with VTTs. I'll just give a real quick brief history of myself yeah before that. Please do. i've I've been pretty much in professional software development since...
00:01:57
Speaker
I don't know, sometime. I'm old now. I've been programming me since I was 12. I played old Redbox stuff when I was little, but I took like a long break as I went to this you know digital software, i got to make money phase.
00:02:16
Speaker
And then i've I've worked at places. I've i've owned, I mean, the CEO of a company. I've done a lot of software stuff and then COVID hit and our our software company that specialized in event scheduling and all all the events got canceled at all the places. So it essentially evaporated like overnight.
00:02:38
Speaker
So I had a ah to find something else and then I got into adventure writing, you know, it's of like freelance, which makes pretty much nothing. And then I saw somebody was hiring for VTT conversions and I was like, great. I know both sides of that.
00:02:52
Speaker
i I have to be able to
Top VTT Platforms Discussion
00:02:54
Speaker
do this. Nice. Sort of been doing it since then. um So that's really my qualifications. There is is ah you know a love of games and a long history of software.
00:03:04
Speaker
well I mean, wow to me, that's magic juju. Like it's it's it's it's like a black box. um i've I've dabbled in um coding before, but the thing is, what I've found is you have to constantly do it in order to not forget everything.
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah. Or just stay current even. Yeah. yeah Yeah. So, you know, I'm admiring of anybody who actually does that consistently. Yeah. Yeah, it is definitely like a muscle memory, i would say, but you know not so much muscle, but brain muscle, gray matter. Yeah. Yeah, using it and losing it are are opposite things there.
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah. Indeed. Indeed. So during the pandemic, right, ah obviously VTTs were were becoming really prevalent. There was an opportunity to work with, was that with metamorphic or sigil,
Pros and Cons of VTT Platforms
00:03:57
Speaker
I guess, at the time? Sigil at the time. That's correct. Yeah.
00:04:00
Speaker
Cool. Yeah. So, so you got, you had that opportunity and VTTs are kind of blowing up during this time. Right. So I guess that's, that's kind of the the point where you're, these two interests converge for you. Right.
00:04:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was making my own adventures were mostly like DMs guild stuff and different things and trying to ramp up my catalog so I could eventually make maybe a hundred dollars a month. Yeah. Yeah. but And I'm like, well, this isn't really going to work. I can see that long term wise, this is not a solution.
00:04:30
Speaker
And then i think I was just chatting in the foundry discord server and i saw amy from sigil at the time yeah who was talking about hiring somebody else and then i was just like hiring you say like like i i think i have these skills
Impact of the Pandemic on VTT Popularity
00:04:47
Speaker
uh and then we just got to talking then i literally worked there ever since that day like maybe i started the monday after or something wow that's awesome That's really cool.
00:04:57
Speaker
So what are the what are the most prominent virtual tabletops currently? Or if there's a history of of prominent ones also, feel free to share that as well. Yeah, yeah. I would say that what I would consider the prominent ones are a Foundry Virtual Tabletop, Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds.
00:05:11
Speaker
Mm-hmm. are what I would say that are like the top the top three, right right? Everything else is in some tier below it, maybe a secondary tier or a third tier. um But definitely those three. And then there's like Alchemy, Albear Rodeo, D&D Beyond has some maps tools that yeah sort of is a sort of a BTT. Map tool itself is sort of BTT. yeah. Start of a map tool way back in the day.
00:05:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. There's like a bunch of them now. So, I mean, most of them will vaporware away. Because they're probably bigger projects than people realize. But i the the big three, though, I don't think are going anywhere. they All of them have good plans.
00:05:47
Speaker
um Just kind of like paying attention to industry news. you know They're hiring talent. They're expanding. They have good roadmaps.
Comparison of VTTs: Roll20, Foundry, and Fantasy Grounds
00:05:56
Speaker
So I would really just consider those three though the ones worth investing in, at least at this time.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah, Roll20 is interesting because they've also merged with DriveThruRPG and Demiplane. Yeah. yeah So they have a lot of cool cross-platform stuff going on there.
00:06:13
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Are there advantages or disadvantages to each of these that you are that that that you work work with all the time, you know? For those three. Yeah.
00:06:25
Speaker
So. Like we're looking at this from like a designer's perspective. Yeah, yeah, sure. but if if If I'm going to make my thing and I want to go into VTTs, like what do I need to know? Yeah.
00:06:36
Speaker
So regarding the top three, I would say is it's sort of the Apple versus Android conversation, right? Yeah. Rule 20 kind of just works, right?
User Interfaces and Community Feedback
00:06:46
Speaker
And it's got a big user base and it's easy to get people on there, right? Your players, right? They don't have to download anything. They just go to the website sign up. ye So it's got a big user base and it's pretty easy to onboard new players.
00:06:58
Speaker
So that's the Apple, my version of the Apple. Yeah, sure. then Foundry Virtual Tabletop is like Android, right? It is much more configurable. You can really dig in and you can do a lot of stuff with it.
00:07:10
Speaker
But there is a higher learning curve initially to get new players involved. Yeah. And then Fantasy Grounds has been around for a long time. and It's got like, you know, a pretty solid history and a bunch of content because they converted themselves.
00:07:23
Speaker
yeah yeah I think it has a little bit of a dated UI personally. Some
Integrating VTTs with Games
00:07:28
Speaker
people like it. Some people say the automations in it are best. I don't use it enough to verify that it's true or not.
00:07:34
Speaker
But it's definitely not going anywhere. um It is a big operation, you know and it's got quite a big fan base. Yeah, i I kind of agree on the UI thing. But I've seen people mentioning that they're revamping the UI.
00:07:48
Speaker
um ah Very lately, they've they've been they've been making changes to and improving it. I think one of the people from D&D Beyond, maybe, might be working on some stuff. Adam Bradford. Adam Bradford. That's right.
00:08:00
Speaker
so So that's kind of exciting for them. I think that's cool. And yeah, I don't know as far as automation. like People say, oh, it does everything. And I'm like, does it? like you know I find that hard to believe, but I mean... you know I don't know enough about it to say whether it does or doesn't, but but you're right. that The content, I think, to your point, ah they have so much content because they take care of it.
00:08:20
Speaker
right we don't like The publishers don't have to worry about paying somebody to do the conversion or whatever. They're just like, we'll do it. yeah yeah Yeah. they have ah
Preparing Maps and Art for VTTs
00:08:30
Speaker
when you when you When Fantasy Ground does it, there's also this fact that there's no money up front. You just give them the content.
00:08:37
Speaker
And then at some point they give you royalty checks or whatever. to start some right So it's super easy to onboard on that. Yeah. um And it definitely has its fan base. Like I've heard that the Savage Worlds ah implementation on there is the premier one for VTT. I don't know if i agree with that, but I've seen people say it in forums. Yeah. yeah Because apparently the automation is back there or something.
00:08:57
Speaker
Go to Reddit. You can hear everybody fight about their favorite VTT. Yeah, right. That happens every year. Yeah. But um I've played on Fantasy Grounds. I've played on Foundry and I've i've run and played in Roll20.
00:09:10
Speaker
And Fantasy Grounds, I'm least familiar with, but the people who love it, really love it. And um ah like like you say, they they make onboarding easy for designers. as As long as they feel like they can sell what you're doing to a certain extent,
00:09:31
Speaker
um they will help you find a developer and ah they have a structure, fee structure in place for paying the developers, paying you because you're basically licensing it to them.
00:09:45
Speaker
And that's what I understand. i am in the midst of doing this with Fantasy Grounds. So I've actually signed the agreement and I've given them all the files. And now, and they've got, we've, you know, like I had developers approaching me um from Fantasy Grounds to like, can we can we do Honkluster for you? And I finally, we finally like, ah I talked with Fantasy Grounds and we finally settled on somebody, a couple of people, I guess.
00:10:12
Speaker
um So that's that's all happening, right? And I don't have to do anything. I'm not doing anything. The only thing I had to do is create a setting that was interesting enough for them to feel like they yeah they could sell it and make some money. do it Right. Return on investment basically for them. Right.
00:10:27
Speaker
Yeah. Right. So why why should we as publishers, i mean, I know why, and Tracy knows why, but just for people who are listening, why should we care about VTTs? Why why not just stick to print and PDF and let people do whatever they want to do?
00:10:43
Speaker
Since COVID, I think we learned that there's like, number one, problem. demand out there. and And at that time it was due to, you know, captive audience, extremely captive audience. Yeah. It was was like the only game in town. Yeah.
00:10:56
Speaker
But now that that's happened and like, and people have kind of worked their way through the learning
VTTs as a New Storytelling Medium
00:11:02
Speaker
curve of it. It's, it's the momentum is, you know, the, the mu coefficient of friction is higher now.
00:11:08
Speaker
Yeah. And it is, has momentum and it's not going to stop. It's just, it's just growing. Uh, and it's a different experience really. I mean, you have a, a bigger reach for your audience.
00:11:19
Speaker
Uh, you know, you can, you can play with people in a different time zone that you don't really see. yeah, You can meet new people that you meet you maybe you wouldn't normally run into. And and then the experience itself is a much more, um i don't want to say immersive because in-person narrative storytelling is also very immersive. But yeah ah like like visual you know re like at maps, you know three d maps or lighting and walls and And being able to hit a button and show a handout instantly. I mean, there's a lot of advantages that it has that in person, you know, there's some yeah friction to to get it to the be the same level.
00:11:57
Speaker
Right. Right. But yeah, I think it's just another medium now. You know, it's like a maybe like, a you know, ah a Broadway play ah at one time was the thing you went to play, but then movies came out. Right. And then so this is a different, different way to tell a different same story to a different crowd with a great mechanism.
00:12:15
Speaker
Mm hmm. and i And I really don't see the, and I've said this i think three times now, but I don't see the momentum dying. I think it's it's just going to get bigger, more accepted, and easier to to get you know get on for the first time as they start making the tools
Convenience and Engagement in VTTs
00:12:29
Speaker
nicer.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yeah, i I pretty much run and play exclusively, not not intentionally exclusively, but just... in terms of how it turned out online with using VTTs. And ah big even with, we have friends locally in Atlanta that, you know, we could get together, but they have kids or, you know, we were playing like after work and, you know, Atlanta's big. So it's like, you know, 45 minutes sometimes to get to somebody else's house.
00:12:57
Speaker
And it's just convenient just to hop online and if something, you know, the kid needs attention or whatever, you just say, I'll bring it back. And then, you know, it's it's a non-issue. um And i so i think I think people are latching onto that that convenience factor. and And especially with published content, which you know we'll get more into, it's just done for you, right? it's just It's all there. It's all prepped. You got your maps, you got your tokens, you got the actors and everything, you know whatever platform you're using.
00:13:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think this really tackles one of the, they always say the the worst enemy or whatever in D&D or RPGs is scheduling.
VTT Module Design Considerations
00:13:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah yeahre right. So this really helps... Eb that down, both in time it takes for preparation and in, I don't have to drive 45 minutes across town or whatever.
00:13:40
Speaker
Right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And you you can squeeze out a little bit more playtime that way as well, because now you don't have the commute. It's the same benefits as working from home. Right. You know, you don't have to worry about the commute and all that.
00:13:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So what is, as ah as designers, you know, if if i making ah I'm making a game, it turns out i did this, made a game and said, okay, so I guess I want it on VTT. I don't use VTV very much. I've done it, but not, not I don't, i I play in person a lot more. I'm super lucky that way, right? I've just got two groups.
00:14:18
Speaker
I play in person a lot. And I only play over the internet rarely. um So I'm not super versed in it. And so I had to i had to ask. i had i had a whole long conversation with Chris at Rincon about this. and And then a whole back and forth with a couple of developers and the owner of Fantasy Grounds in order to get all that set up because i didn't understand how it worked. Right. Right.
00:14:46
Speaker
So as designers, what do we need to help prepare our work for a somebody to do a module in a VTT like Fantasy Grounds or Foundry? Like, what do you need from us?
00:15:02
Speaker
ah Usually, if depending on how early you are in the development of your actual publication, your your you you here book or your RPG system or your venture, whatever it is, ah if if you can think about like where the information, where the data is going eventually and how it will be used it is often helpful in in a couple ways. ah One, let's, I'll start with the easy one is maps, right? You make maps for the print book.
00:15:27
Speaker
Maybe it looks fine in a book at X resolution, but yeah while you have the files initially, if you make sure your map is layered properly, your grid's on a different layer, your your lighting is on different layer and your resolution is is very, you know, quite large,
00:15:44
Speaker
then you can export it to a print version easily and then export it to a VTT version easily. And those maps won't need to be redone you know after the first time of creation. So that for sure is one.
00:15:55
Speaker
ah Second is your youre the rest of your art too. You don't know where it will be used. Often art that you just use as a filler in your book or something could end up being used as a token or an accent or or a piece of a journal or something. So just maintaining a good inventory of your art and accessibility and and just having it at the ready for,
00:16:14
Speaker
who who knows what it'll be used for. You know, sometimes you just need to find something that fits somewhere because the the way you lay out the book, maybe I can't remember what the word is right now. And you find those little art pieces that you put on a page because you want the next page to start here. So there's a big gap and you put a little piece in or whatever that's called, like filler art or whatever. yeah yeah So maybe that is important on the book. But once you get into a vertical scroll VTT thing, you don't have that kind of space. So that picture maybe is no longer important there.
00:16:43
Speaker
But it could be used somewhere else. Maybe it ends up being used for a token image because that creature didn't have any art in the bestiary part of your book or bestiary, depending how you like that.
00:16:57
Speaker
ah So anything like that, anything that makes your art more useful, um having more art helps. I mean, usually this is not you know something people can't do for cost wise, but yeah if you have like 50 creatures and you have four images of creatures and there's 46 of them that have no art.
00:17:15
Speaker
That becomes apparent. I mean, it's sometimes it's an um unavoidable and that's just how it is. But, you know, if there is a way to do it, it's nice when you can put art with all the different things, you know, so if you have some kind of representation on the virtual tabletop, it'll have something to look at.
00:17:33
Speaker
what's a What's a good substitute if somebody does not have all the art for, all for like say, the bestiary? Well, there's a few. One, you can buy a generic token pack right and just fill it in, whatever.
00:17:44
Speaker
Some of the systems, like the D&D 5 system in Foundry, let's say, comes with all of the tokens already. oh right yeah If you happen to be building for that, you're good there. um You can get stock art. you can get You can commission people if it's in the budget.
00:18:01
Speaker
um You can look for open source or free public art, Creative Commons art. some pipe Some people who open the AI can of worms will do that type of art. um It's really, it's, it's the monetary value is really what the limiting factor here. So it's really like how, what's your budget and what can you squeeze out of it?
00:18:19
Speaker
Sometimes it's, you know, some of the ones we've made have like had a giant letter A for ant person or whatever. Yes. Yeah. that's all I've done that myself. Yeah. Yeah. like, don't have art for all these weird Eberron things. So letter It's a giant letter A is what it is. That's right. That's what you get.
00:18:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when i provide you, for example, and Fantasy Grounds, i'm give because I've got ah full-on setting here, blah, blah, blah, with lots of stuff going on, I'm giving you all my InDesign files and all the packaged content. This is...
00:18:54
Speaker
six, seven gigabytes of stuff, right? And you're going to be able to extract from that. There's all the original art is there. All of it is, it's it's all in folders for you to mess with and do whatever your magic, occult, dark ritual stuff that you do to make a foundry module.
00:19:14
Speaker
um And so is that what the preference is, is to get the original art um in terms of like full resolution, all that stuff? That's what you want?
00:19:26
Speaker
Yes. Full resolution, biggest biggest one you got, most, you know, not not not the earliest, right Because maybe it's not the most done, but whatever the highest resolution is. Uncut, if it's been like trimmed for fitting in a corner of a page or something, yeah whatever the uncut version is, that's better.
Translating Design Elements to VTTs
00:19:43
Speaker
all the layers all the Yeah, like if you have any images that are used for your styling, like that are used to make frames or backgrounds or. Yeah, the graphic design stuff. yeah oh Yeah, page decorations like the originals, even if you cut them because maybe they'll fit different and we would we would need to cut it differently.
00:20:01
Speaker
So just, yeah, just the most pure, highest resolution originals of everything. Yeah. Yeah. So we just, ah last episode, we had Carl Kiesler on, with you know, talk about graphic design and layout.
00:20:14
Speaker
and i And I know, like, for example, in Foundry, often some of that trade dress or, you know, the graphic design elements are used on, like, the character sheets. Yeah.
00:20:25
Speaker
Do you think that there should be more conversation between, say, the graphic designer and the VTT developers um with with respect to resources they'll need or or how they could design it? or Do you think there's more opportunity for that?
00:20:42
Speaker
um I would say yes and no to that. um there's There's two schools of thought that I've seen in this, and that is... One, we want the VTT experience to look as close to the trade dresses of the book as we can.
00:21:00
Speaker
right We want the CSS styling of the journals to match the book styling as close as possible. We want it to look like an online version of the PDF. yeah there's There's those people. And then there are, that costs a lot of money. Just make it look like the default styling for the VTT. And that's good enough for us. Right. Right. Like we we're not really worried about that, you know, and, and whatever X extra cost it would cost to do that.
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah. um So if you are aiming for the look as close to the PDF as possible and you, and you do hire somebody who's like, like metamorphic studio is, who is well versed in it,
00:21:38
Speaker
Like the skill there that already, you might not need to talk to the layout person, right Because there's already skill there that's really good at matching the style from the book. Right. As long as you have raw materials. Yeah. ah If the skill isn't there, then then I would say, yes, making sure you understand the ah vision of the layout person might be ah very helpful if it does not come with an extra...
00:22:03
Speaker
overhead of now there's communication lags and now things are taking longer, right? There's one more person in the mix. I got to wait for them to reply. I got to ask questions. Right. It's another point of communication that you get that gets in the mix. Yeah.
00:22:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So like again, really it's how close are you to the place that's doing it? How good are they at what they're doing? Right. and What's the desired end goal? That kind of thing Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:26
Speaker
Yeah. Because I know, you know, even with web design, for example, you know, you'll have somebody who mocks something up in Figma. And then the developer gets in there like, are you insane? you It's like like the architect versus the engineer kind of thing, right? The architect has this beautiful building structure and the engineer's like, that's not possible, right? Or or that's going to be a lot more expensive to develop. you know than yeah So I wonder if there's any if there's that element to it as well. where it's like I recently had a similar conversation with somebody who was trying to tell me they wanted an accordion component to display something on the web page. But they were calling it a dropdown.
00:23:04
Speaker
yeah So in my head, I had painted this entire different picture. You're thinking like a select. Yeah. yeah Or like a menu, maybe. yeah Yeah. I was like, well, it's a dropdown. like There's a dropdown. That's what the component is called, dropdown. That's what you asked for. Like, no, that's not what I want.
00:23:15
Speaker
And then they described the accordion thing. like oh that's that's usually an accordion.
Pricing and Development of VTT Modules
00:23:19
Speaker
yeah yeah Whatever. Just make it happen. you know
00:23:24
Speaker
I've been there, my friend. yeah Do it. Make it happen. So how how are these modules priced?
00:23:35
Speaker
Like how do they, what is it, is there a standard? are you Are you referring to pricing the the product or pricing the development? um Pricing the product.
00:23:45
Speaker
Okay. Right. So for from ah from a player's or a GM's perspective, how much are they paying to use this module? At Betamorphic, they usually recommend it's priced as the print book is.
00:24:00
Speaker
Oh, the print book. yeah Interesting. so Okay. So there have been some different like history here. like ah Should the PDF be included? Should the PDF not be included?
00:24:10
Speaker
Right. Right. Is it cheaper than the book? Is it not cheaper? is it Is it priced where the PDF is or is it priced where the book is? Right. There's yeah there's been all these iterations. and And where we've landed at is it's probably best to price it near the book price. Yes. Because there's a lot that goes into it. Like it it is not just the PDF change to HTML and there you go.
00:24:30
Speaker
Right. no No, it is not. Yeah. There's lighting and walls and all these tokens that you're making and maybe there's custom programming and. calculations and maybe tools that you know pop up on the screen and do things for you.
00:24:42
Speaker
So it's quite it's like ah like an experience more than just a conversion, right? like yeah yeah You're diving into this is this module created and now you're going you and your players are going to like really get in the weeds here with this. We've yeah taken a lot of time to put it all together. so Yeah, you're right. Because because like even in Foundry with the automation components, you have things like the active effects and you know item grants and you know choice sets and all these things that you have to put in. like People don't even know about these things when they're buying the product.
00:25:11
Speaker
I see way too often and underappreciation for what goes into the VTT development, know product development process. Where, they the yeah, that like you said, they think of it as like, well, this is just an HTML version.
Automation's Impact on RPG Interactions
00:25:24
Speaker
you know, that's all I'm getting here. It's like, no, you're you're paying for the development of these features and this functionality.
00:25:31
Speaker
Additionally, what people don't realize or what they forget is that you're also paying for maintenance, right? Yeah. as the you know As Foundry, for example, changes and updates, or the system now has more functionality and new features, now the content has to be revised and you're paying for that support as well.
00:25:51
Speaker
Yeah. there's also ah another component that is when you're in the VTT and you're in this module, there may be like calculations that you don't even have to do are just being done for you. So your actual time is saved so you can spend more on playing or you know advancing the narrative rather than trying to calculate the crunch.
00:26:10
Speaker
Yeah, that that certainly was true because I ran Torg Eternity in Roll20 and whoever made the character sheet for the Torg Eternity,
00:26:22
Speaker
my it was is a character sheet for Roll20. And they did a great job because roll 20, or I'm sorry, Torg Eternity is a little bit of a learning curve in terms of how you roll the dice and what happens there. it really is kind of quirky in its own great way. It's not, it's not something I would ever want to change, but for new players, it was great to have roll 20 because all that calculation was done for you. You, yeah you would say, I'm going to roll my,
00:26:52
Speaker
persuasion or whatever, and it would do all the back end stuff without the new player knowing how it was done and just give you a result, which made my life as a GM way easier because I didn't have to explain to them over like Zoom or whatever we were talking how this all worked and blah, blah, blah. Whereas in ah at the table, it's a little easier.
00:27:12
Speaker
but um So yeah, that's that's one of the examples of the automation that they can do. And that's just a basic example of ah compared to what is possible out there, like people doing music and crazy animation stuff and all this other stuff, um of what VTTs can do that don't happen at a physical table.
00:27:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. there's There's some that I've i've seen that I've cut scenes and soundtracks and custom soundtracks and like, yeah, yeah it can get super in depth, like almost like you're in an interactive movie or something.
00:27:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty intense. And there can be debate on whether that's good or bad, but yeah like yeah, I certainly have my thoughts on it, but at the same time, I'm also undecided on it too.
00:28:01
Speaker
So it's like, That's super interesting. But the point is, it's development and it's a lot of work, yeah like no matter how you slice it. So speaking of that, like um do I have to pay thousands and thousands to get my game onto one of these things?
00:28:20
Speaker
Depends. Or that depends. Yeah. Yeah, it depends. Yeah. So, um I mean, we certainly have had done projects that do cost thousands, tens of thousands. I mean, how how big are we making it?
00:28:31
Speaker
Like, what's the longevity we think this project is going to go? Are we going to support it for years? I mean, typically we do support it for years. That's why people go to Metamorphic because... you know if they'll be there in two years or three years as opposed to whoever, Joe sh Schmo that did it once and then can't get ahold of them anymore.
00:28:46
Speaker
yeah ah But yeah, there's i mean there's a lot. how much How much automation you're putting in? how How big is it? We just got one that's 1,600 pages of stuff. That is, oh my gosh. Just combing through it costs, you know, man. is that world's largest dungeon? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tailoring VTT Modules to Budget and Vision
00:29:04
Speaker
Jeez. I know. And I saw how many books they were going to, I was like, what?
00:29:08
Speaker
Oh, I do not envy that work, but yeah, it is, that's massive. Yeah. So it's, and there's a quality level too. I mean, if you're happy with, ah I don't want to say it in a demeaning way, but a more minimal conversion, right?
00:29:24
Speaker
ah then maybe you can get on a budget from somebody who does that and it is cheaper, right? As long as you believe that they will be there to support it. Or if you want to go like premium and you you find somebody who really has a good reputation for it and does it at a high level, and there's a cost associated with that, but there's probably more security in the longevity of how long it'll keep going.
00:29:46
Speaker
You mentioned earlier, for example, like you know the the make it look like the trade dress in the book kind of thing or versus the just have it be default foundry styles, for example, foundry. you know are Do you think there's... there's um opportunity i guess for something that's a mix right like give me all the automation don't worry about the styles like that kind of a thing yeah oh yeah we we we do that like ah you know whatever works within somebody's budget or or with they're within their vision yeah um sometimes they want yeah the full you don't do it all whatever you whatever just do it i'll do the best right i can have okay all right or there's like you know people a a lot of times there's a decision maker that does not
00:30:31
Speaker
Like thinking about it is too much, right? Give me a number and tell me where to sign or whatever. And that's all they want to be involved. Sure. And then there's other people who are usually more digitally acclimated, let's say, that will actually go through and go, I don't think we need the styling.
00:30:46
Speaker
I'd rather spend the money on nicer tokens or, so you know, something like yeah some decision that they make like that. That's like, well, I've seen people use journal entries sometimes, but they use tokens all the time. Right. Right. Some decision like that. So yeah, it definitely piecemealing it and different, you know, different ways to mix it are are happening often.
00:31:05
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. So I was asked, I asked multiple times about whether I was going to provide raw files um like like maps and tokens and stuff that. Oh, yeah. asked you about that.
00:31:23
Speaker
Yeah. Did you? Yeah. I don't remember. i know I know that I was asked multiple times whether I was going to be able to provide that for the do-it-yourself version. Right. right meaning somebody who wants to take the the maps or whatever and bring them in to role twenty so that they can create their own unclustered game um without having to buy a module that's out there like that's what they want to do what is your what are your thoughts on that um chris i have my thoughts but im i'm i'm curious from ah from ah
00:31:56
Speaker
module developer standpoint and from somebody who uses vtts a lot what what are your thoughts So i I have two perspectives or two facets I can look at this from.
00:32:07
Speaker
As from a module module maker, ah I would think you don't want to release too much DIY because it's going to cut into the people getting your module and you're not going to make the money back because you'll have less sales.
00:32:18
Speaker
Right. that's just a economic fact. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, as from my other facet as a gamer person, well, maybe, maybe everybody doesn't really like how modules are made because it's not how they would do it.
00:32:29
Speaker
So they would just rather have the raw materials and set it up themselves because they prefer, they're going to mess with the module anyway. the They don't, they just don't like how other people do it. So they want to do it themselves. So there'd be nice that something could be there for those people.
00:32:41
Speaker
I think there's ah there's a third, um i guess, persona as well, where the person just wants the visual. they're They're not even rolling dice, for example.
00:32:53
Speaker
They just want to put the the token on the scene and move it around and everything else is, but it might as well be analog, right?
Intellectual Property and VTTs
00:33:00
Speaker
um Like you mentioned the D&D Beyond Maps tool. my So my wife, we we switched over from Foundry to that for her D&D game.
00:33:08
Speaker
And I got to say, it was like the amount of joy she had because she didn't have to worry about building the actors and putting in the art. She could just pull it directly in.
00:33:19
Speaker
and there's like no automation or no lights, no nothing, no walls. It's just so basic and so stupid simple. that it was like it it was a pleasure to use.
00:33:30
Speaker
yeah So I could see in that case, I just want to put in my own art and make a token and be done. you know i don't I don't care about all the automation stuff. Yeah, and there's a big there's actually a big... like ah segment of that that's like i i just want to be able to show somebody far away what the map looks like right albert rodeo right yeah right alber yeah i've used albert and and i've also used rule 20 for just map maneuvering so like when i ran the play test of hong cluster online uh the the pre the plot point campaign i didn't use any vtt until the very last fight and i wanted
00:34:07
Speaker
that last fight because it's very set piece, very specific to a map. yeah I wanted to put the map in and I wanted people to move their people around and be able to tactically make decisions based on that.
00:34:20
Speaker
That's all I used it for. I didn't have him roll anything. I didn't have him do anything else. That was it. And, and that's, that's valuable too. Like there's that's some people like that owlbearers like that too. That's what it's for, you know?
00:34:32
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. But I had them roll physical dice. i I put cards on the table and I told everybody, here's what you got. You know, like I didn't i didn't use any of those things. I've done it before. Yeah. in this case, I didn't.
00:34:45
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think those people who just want the owlbear rodeo type experience, I mean, those aren't sales anyway, right? so Yeah. You know, um but there are people who might hem and haw, you know, they might be on the cusp of like, oh, should I buy the module or should I just, you know, do a DIY on the couch? Do a DIY. That's available. Yeah.
00:35:02
Speaker
Yeah. And my thought was as a designer is, was like, no, I kind of don't want to make these available in that format because the, a DIY, DIY is going to, or DIY. DIY.
00:35:16
Speaker
yeahy DIY going to find a way to do it no matter what. Right. scan the PDF. They're either going to take it off the PDF or they're going to take it off the module that we mentioned. Right.
00:35:29
Speaker
They're going to find way. Dissecting a PDF isn't hard. he Right. It's not that hard. ah So why do I put my work into that when I'm going to try to sell the module anyway? Right. And it's a business decision, but it's also like a quality decision. That's fair. It's like, no, no, there's, it's going to be higher quality if I just have a module out there and I point people to that.
00:35:48
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's, I think that's a better choice for me anyway, which is why I decided ultimately not to do it. To the chagrin of several people. Yeah, there's there's ah there's a production value and perception value, right? Like you're putting out high quality stuff, you know premium content, you know, digital content experience type of thing, you know.
00:36:09
Speaker
I'm also, yeah not irrationally, I'm... i you know i'm I'm very respectful of intellectual property rights, meaning you know Disney's stuff is Disney's stuff. like I respect that. But at at the same token on the other side of that coin, I'm very protective of the stuff that's mine.
Balancing Automation and Player Engagement
00:36:31
Speaker
right And so putting out like a full res map for anybody to use, it feels wrong to me. I'm not going to. Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to put out, you know, 300 DPI print resolution images. but you know, screen resolution. Yeah, screen resolution images. Yeah, yeah i'm I'm okay with that. i get I just get like, oh, I don't want to see this stolen and used somewhere else. I know I will anyway, but why make it easy for them?
00:37:00
Speaker
Right. Right. Don't enable. But that's just me. I'm that way. I am that way. I have another, just like sort of on the other end of the spectrum that I think it might be just real quick to touch on.
00:37:14
Speaker
Yeah. Is I think that you can actually do also too much. Like... like the, the, the sigil 3d VTT that came out, like, uh, Oh yeah. mojis three on Most 3d, 3d VTT to me are like hitting that uncanny Valley of, I might as well just be playing a video game. Like we're way off you know base here.
00:37:35
Speaker
Honestly, with some of the automations I've even seen in foundry, even in in some some core foundry stuff even, i i kind of feel it's it's leaning toward that, right? Or it's it's at least facilitating that.
00:37:47
Speaker
Whereas I'm like, can I just get a template image that I can center instead of having it tiled? you know Can I have templates that I can just put on a token? i don't need you know automated visual effects you know and triggers and all these things. like First of all, who has the time to even do that work as a GM? Yeah.
00:38:07
Speaker
You know, but that's a whole other thing. Yeah, there's there's been times when I'm playing something where it's been too automated and it is just, I didn't get to make my death saving throw or whatever, right? It just says I'm dead because it it rolled everything for me.
00:38:21
Speaker
This receipt of events just go in front of you and you have now died. Just way too automated. I want, yeah, yeah I want... and and And the thing is, like there's there's I know there are people who just want it all to happen automatically because they don't want to have to deal with it.
00:38:36
Speaker
I want the speed bumps, so to speak. right I want the checkpoints. Okay, this happened. Now roll your death save. Okay, now do this. Because then that I'm playing the game. yeah you know um And I think there's a difference also between playing the RPG and playing the VTT.
00:38:52
Speaker
Yeah. Right. That's like, you know, you spend more time setting up and playing with the VTT than you are prepping your game. Then my opinion is you're sacrificing story for, you know, oh, wow factor.
00:39:06
Speaker
Yeah. I fully agree with that, and I think that maybe I glossed over on one of our earlier points, but there are some disadvantages to VTT, too, and one of them is ah dealing with the technical obstacles, right? Oh, yeah.
00:39:17
Speaker
Well, and also troubleshooting, too. Yeah, right, yeah. It's we're all here, but Joe can't get signed in right now. having an issue. Yeah. or this This piece of automation didn't work right. Why didn't it work right? You know, is it my is it a module I'm using? Is it?
00:39:31
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Let's troubleshoot this. Yeah. Did my Roll20 script, you know, break because they updated something? You know, it's like, yeah. Yeah, that's tough. I mean, I've run into it where, you know, my sister only has a MacBook Air.
00:39:47
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And that's really challenging to use with a VTT. If you're, if you're doing the rules and the map and all that stuff. And so I get that. Yeah. Well, lighting, i that's way beyond light. I've never even tried it.
00:40:01
Speaker
But, but yeah, even then it's like, well, it's a barrier for her. Right. And it's not only her. So it's, it's like you said, Chris, it's like COVID bridged that gap a little because we all had to go through that learning curve. right But at the same time, it is it it now has is rubber banded in a way that now we're doing super automation and and a lot of stuff that can easily break or be done so overdone that we're not really playing what we think ah of as a role playing game anymore.
00:40:36
Speaker
Right. I'm not bagging on it because I think a lot of people love it. And I think that it's fine. I think it's i think it's great because like you said, I can play with people who are across the country, across the world. yeah Like somebody just ran reunification the other day with somebody from like Germany and somebody from California. And that's that's amazing. Right. And I don't discount that. But at the same time,
00:41:04
Speaker
ah it's it's easy to get ah it's easy to get caught up in the wave and not realize what you're missing. Yeah. Yeah. So i think I think for designers...
00:41:17
Speaker
you know like there There is a baseline. for let's um I'm going to keep using Foundry because that's what I have the most experience with. there's There's a baseline of production that I think users are going to expect. right like They want tokens, they want art, they want actors.
00:41:30
Speaker
you know If maps are available, they want scenes with maps. um But I also think that there's a standard set with the system right in terms of what it can do. And then people who are buying your module, they're going to expect those same behavioral patterns like know that when they're interacting with it.
00:41:49
Speaker
So I think you know it is worth it to have somebody pay somebody to develop that for you and and make sure those features are in there.
Technical Challenges in VTT Use
00:41:57
Speaker
um you know And then it's up to the user if they want to use all that stuff or not. But if it's available, you know then those who want to use those things, they can.
00:42:07
Speaker
You're not depriving them of any any features or or quality experience. Yeah. And and there's ah ah another component that similar relates to that is that Because you're all in different rooms, in different time zones, in different places, potentially,
00:42:21
Speaker
you if the user isn't doing enough stuff to engage with the interface, they are possibly tabbed out in Chrome looking at something else or whatever. So they they need to have stuff to do just to keep them in the game rather than yeah waiting for it to hear somebody, hey, you're take your turn? Oh, sorry, let me...
00:42:39
Speaker
What were we doing again? Yeah, you know, that kind tab over. hold on Yeah, we have we have a friend in our D&D game who's exactly like that. We're like, hey, yeah are you there? It's like, oh, yeah, yeah. Hold on.
00:42:52
Speaker
His wife plays right next to him and she's like, yeah, he's on another tab.
00:42:58
Speaker
That's too bad. Yeah. That's too bad. But, you know, it happens in person, too. Oh, yeah. You know, people look at their phones and things like that, you know, that happens. Maybe that would good add-on for Foundry is that once you alt-tab, it alerts the...
00:43:11
Speaker
There's a module that actually, there is a module that I don't, I can't remember what it was called, but it would actually let you know player list would change for their name if they were not focused on the tab. So you could shame them because they're like, Charlie, I see you're not paying attention. How is patio furniture on Amazon doing anyway? Yeah. Well, it didn't tell you what tab they were looking at because, you know, privacy concerns, but it did tell you that they were not on the foundry tab. Yeah.
00:43:40
Speaker
What are you doing over there? Yeah. I mean, and it's framed as, you know, making sure you're keeping your players engaged, but we all know it's policing your players who are getting distracted.
Evolution of Digital Content Formats
00:43:52
Speaker
you know Yeah. I mean, that's a whole larger conversation, but it really is. Yeah. But it speaks more to the GMing playing experience than the, Design experience. Bottom line is VTTs are here and they're here to stay. And with the expense of physical books and expense of shipping these days, it seems like they're going to be becoming even more prevalent later.
00:44:17
Speaker
I wish, and Christian and I have talked about this, that we had a better experience. format than PDFs for digital distribution. Um, that I don't know, it's just such an old format. And so yeah it's so restrictive yeah that I wish we had something better.
00:44:36
Speaker
And I hope that one day we do, but, and VTTs is part of that, but I think we're still, we're still figuring it out. I think. Yeah, PDFs were designed with ah old school layout mentality where something appearing at XY coordinate was more important than the structure of the data within the within the actual file.
00:44:56
Speaker
right So it's more important that they're laid out right rather than it was structured properly. And we deal with that too because we take usually we get ah an InDesign file. That's usually the input method is InDesign. Right. And I apologize.
00:45:10
Speaker
yeah No, well, the InDesign file is nice because you have the you have the markup, you know the structure in there. Sure, unless it's a huge mess like mine are. yeah if you use If you use InDesign in a consistent way, it's not that... I did. I really did. There's just exceptions, that's all.
00:45:27
Speaker
Yeah, Adobe does some weird things when it when it makes the PDF and you you lose you lose some things, some data from from that. I've been a huge fan of the idea, I'll say the idea of EPUB 3.
00:45:39
Speaker
The problem is the execution is lacking in terms of yeah support for CSS3 and HTML5 and all those things.
Automation in Content Creation
00:45:46
Speaker
But I'm hoping one day, one day, the dream will come true and we'll have responsive books so consistently presented.
00:45:56
Speaker
a little bit on topic, sort of off topic, is I'm actually but doing more and more with Latex because i want... i want to automate my I want to focus on the data of the adventures that I'm creating.
00:46:09
Speaker
Oh, interesting. And I'm going to try to make it so that I can get latex and in templating templating in a way that I can almost automate layout creation from the data.
00:46:22
Speaker
It'll be a little bit less artistic, but it will be 85% the way there with no effort. You know, then I kind of did something similar. Sorry, we're really getting deep in the nerd weeds here.
00:46:34
Speaker
But I did something similar where i I stood up a craft site and I used it as a content management system to put my game content in there. And then it would render the book with all the data, and all the discrete pieces of data for all all the edges, all the powers, everything.
00:46:49
Speaker
And it would you know because it knew structurally all the different pieces of data, it was then able to render it as HTML5 markup with you know the CSS styling I applied um in just one big document.
00:47:02
Speaker
and it was glorious, you know, just made it really easy to just take the data and then present it however I wanted, you know? Yeah. I, yeah I have a build system that I made from Foundry that I think I've mentioned it to you before, Christian, in the past, but I can't be sure that I did.
00:47:20
Speaker
ah But anyway, it uses Foundry as the data input mechanism. And then I export it from there. Oh, right. Yeah, we did. that' That's actually why I was using the latex, right? It was like, yeah, I just want to build my adventure in Foundry. In Foundry directly.
00:47:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I put my adventure text in Markdown, everything else in Foundry, items, features, maps, everything. And then I run a build script and it makes a PDF.
00:47:44
Speaker
That's right. Yeah. So so found the Foundry data is the source of truth for the content. And then you're just... Yeah, basically just exporting whatever format you need at that point. Yeah.
Community Engagement and Podcast Wrap-up
00:47:54
Speaker
That's pretty brilliant. This all like dark powers messing with arcane that you guys should like, that we should never speak of stuff to me. This Right. And Tracy Roll sanity.
00:48:09
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I'm a huge admirer of it. Like, it's not it's not my thing. Chris, when are we going to get the Savage Worlds VTT, Savage Worlds and Beyond or whatever?
00:48:23
Speaker
Well, I did just start making a um This is sort of as my side project here, but I'm creating Are you guys are familiar with Living Greyhawk?
00:48:37
Speaker
Yeah. you know Oh, yeah. okay I love Greyhawk. Yeah. Okay. I'm trying to create... a modern version of Living Greyhawk that uses Foundry as the means of play.
00:48:49
Speaker
Nice. Not the sole means of play. You can play at the table too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. means of play. And then a website to coordinate efforts between all the places that are living or you know using this living campaign. And the guts of that sort of become what you were asking about is like a hub for all of these Savage Worlds characters or or nice or importing them to different VTTs and stuff because the central logic there can be shared.
00:49:15
Speaker
So it's just sort of my side thing. But once I pull the guts out, it will be the other thing. Nice. Very cool. All right. We'll keep an eye out for that. Yeah. I like it. I think it's actually pretty neat. Like if you're in Foundry and you're like, okay, done with the game. And then you go to the website and your character's there. Now you can do your shopping at the store on the website.
00:49:33
Speaker
Nice. And then, ah you know, next time you play the game, you're you're ready. That's super cool. That's super cool. Super cool. Crazy times. Crazy, crazy. Well, is there anything else, Chris, that you want to talk to us about or give us any tips?
00:49:47
Speaker
e I think we went over pretty well there. I hope I'm going to be seeing some people at Gen Con this year. Yep, I'll be there. I will not. Christian? No. GameHoleCon?
00:49:59
Speaker
ah No, I'm not going to be at GameHoleCon either this year. we're Yeah. I'll be there. Hang i with Tracy more this year, I guess. More me. You get more me. Lucky you. Come out to Mythic. Come out to Mythic.
00:50:10
Speaker
Mythicon in November. and where Where is that at? That's in North Carolina. North Carolina. really Yeah. Chris is in Phoenix. It's humid there, right? It is humid there.
00:50:21
Speaker
Yes. Yes. it gets It's cool, though, because it's November and they're in the mountains. So... I do usually do one new convention every year, so I will eventually be there. Yeah, yeah. Cool. time yeah we We might be at Chupa next year.
00:50:35
Speaker
Oh, same. I i yeah probably will be at Chupa next year as Cool, cool. All right. Well, I'll keep you posted. Other than that, no, I'm just working and going to conventions and then sometimes I sleep. All right, then.
00:50:46
Speaker
Well, thank you, Chris, for joining us. Really, really informative, really smart person. I've been able to talk to Chris and monopolize his time for hours at a time, and it's been awesome. Not only is he super smart, but he's also super funny, and he runs a great game, too.
00:51:03
Speaker
We really got to geek out more, Chris. i I'm happy to. I'm typically more introverted, so that you you have to... ah guide my hand. i will draw you out. Yeah. And yeah, my default is that people don't want to be bothered by me. So once you get past that, then it's like, okay, well I'm the same way.
00:51:24
Speaker
Oh no, man. You kidding me? I'm, I'm worried about bothering you. I'm like, I want to ask him about these things. And you know, like, no, he's probably getting questions left and right. Yeah. No, if anybody wants to, even even even listeners want to reach out say hi or ask questions, I am super willing for that.
00:51:39
Speaker
Cool. Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server.
00:51:56
Speaker
Please come by join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few along the way.