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Problem #28: A Game to Play or a Game to Sell?
139 Plays19 days ago
This week, Kristian and Tracy discuss the sometimes (but not always) contradictory goals of creating a game that we think will sell, versus creating the game we want to play. It's a nuanced topic and in our weird industry of creating "experiences," trying to find a balance between these two goals sometimes leads to difficult and risky decisions.
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Transcript
Introduction to Designing Problems RPG Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this web of contradictions.
Creating for Play vs. Market
00:00:18
Speaker
And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 28, a game to play or a game to sell.
00:00:45
Speaker
Tracy. Yes. Yes. Christian. Han Cluster. Yes. Yes. Was it a game to play or was it a game to sell? Like, was this, I want to make this marketable and I want
Complexities of RPG Game Development
00:00:56
Speaker
it to be big. I want to do, you know, was because yeah i know you've talked about the goal or a desire to have like cross media stuff, right? Possibly and things like that.
00:01:07
Speaker
But i I know that sometimes we we as creators have ah an internal conflict of creating the game we want to play. But then we if we want to sell it, we got to make it marketable and trying to find or make sure that what we're creating for ourselves is also marketable.
00:01:29
Speaker
There's a lot of pieces to that, right? There are
Personal Enjoyment vs. Release Plans
00:01:32
Speaker
a lot of pieces. And like, yeah, because good and and then there's also like Designing the game to be read and understood, designing the game to be run, designing the game to be read and enjoyed, a designing to be the game to be understood, which I know you've, you know, that's been a theme for you.
00:01:51
Speaker
So um um i want to I want to give you the mic, at so to speak. And I want to hear your your input on that. Like what what have been what would have been some of the struggles throughout the process of Han Cluster for the past however many years going back and forth between, you know, what you were designing for?
Maintaining Interest and Marketability
00:02:12
Speaker
um
00:02:16
Speaker
i You know, I think there's obviously there's elements of both once you get past a certain point. Right now ah for me, Honkluster was, I'm going to, so I had no intention of, of releasing it. and We've talked about this before. Yeah. I was just trying to make a game I wanted to to run.
00:02:35
Speaker
You know, I wanted to make the game I wanted to play when I was a kid. Right. Because I didn't have it really. And so I was like, okay, yeah I'm in control of this. It's, it's, it's my imagination. i get to do whatever I want.
Passion Over Marketability
00:02:49
Speaker
So I'm going to try to make something that I would want to play.
00:02:54
Speaker
That alone is difficult enough. Like it's really hard because, um I mean, you have to have a whole lot of skills just to do that.
00:03:07
Speaker
Yeah, right. And and um sometimes, and like Ira Glass says in one of the videos that I so share to everybody who will who will watch it, which is basically this awesome YouTube video that says,
00:03:22
Speaker
you're your Your taste is what gets you in the game. it's it's you know you can so You can recognize greatness. You just don't know how to produce greatness yet. And the only way to learn how to produce greatness is to keep trying.
00:03:35
Speaker
Right. or or Or produce the stuff that you want to see. Produce the thing that you want to see in the world that you recognize as fantastic. The only way to do that is to just keep practicing and keep learning and keep developing the skills.
Choosing Passion Over Market Demands
00:03:52
Speaker
And so like forgetting marketing and forgetting the selling of it, if you are passionate about the idea and want to you know create the game you want to play, that's the only thing that matters at that point.
00:04:12
Speaker
For me, later, becoming a marketable product became more important. Not more important, but more more and more important. It started to move up in the ladder of, and and started to to compete with making the game I wanted to play.
00:04:31
Speaker
Right. So, and and that was that was after I really decided, okay, I'm going to try to produce this. I'm going to try to make a game for people, for other people.
00:04:46
Speaker
And then of course, becomes there there is a factor of trying to make decisions that gives you the best possible chance for you to sell this game. you know But there are times at which those things are at odds.
Passion Projects vs. Market-Driven Projects
00:05:06
Speaker
And when they are at odds, I am a big proponent of choosing the game I want to play over the game I want to sell.
00:05:17
Speaker
So why is that? why like has Has there ever been anything that you have compromised or came close to compromising? um And then also conversely, is there an example that you can give where there was something you were about to compromise on, but you're like, you know what? No, um this is what I want to play.
00:05:35
Speaker
I can't give a specific example of the former, um except that i I can say that I have gone down that road and the problem always is, and this is part of my own personality, is that once I start thinking along those lines of, I need to get rid of something I love in order to chase down what I hope people will want, I always inevitably lose interest in the project.
00:06:05
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. It's not yours anymore. It feels like. Yeah. It becomes not mine anymore. It becomes less of a passion anymore. Now, maybe, you know, if If I had some reason to believe that I knew i was going to make a lot of money because of that decision, be an easier decision to make.
00:06:27
Speaker
right If I knew for certain that making a decision like that was the right way to go in terms of like ballooning my bottom line, that makes a difference.
00:06:40
Speaker
But when you're when you're somebody like us making a game, And do you know that conflagration of play versus business.
00:06:55
Speaker
The only real way to do it that I can think of is to do what's right for the game, not what's right for what you think is going to sell.
Importance of Maintaining Vision
00:07:07
Speaker
Because you can't know what's going to sell. Yeah. You just can't. And... I can give lots of examples, and I'll get back to your other, like the opposite example in this in a sec, but lots of examples in in just the art space of of the world where so many artists have created what they believe in, and it's taken off to become their legacy.
00:07:35
Speaker
yeah
00:07:39
Speaker
If they didn't believe in it, it would not have done that.
00:07:45
Speaker
Yeah. It just wouldn't have. let's I mean, look at George Lucas. The guy, he just, he killed himself. He was he had shoestring budgets. He had, you know, hardships in Tunisia. He he was it was groundbreaking things that everybody else told him was impossible.
00:08:05
Speaker
And yet he created Star Wars out of it. And he wouldn't have done it unless he was passionate about it unless he believed it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Same with David Lynch. He would not be David Lynch unless he did the things he did.
00:08:22
Speaker
Prince, there's there's stories of Prince all over the place that he believed every second of his life that he was carving his legacy with every song he wrote. And he was.
00:08:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:36
Speaker
And that doesn't happen if you're just saying, I'm going to make decisions that make the best possible chance that I'll be able to sell the product. Right.
00:08:48
Speaker
Because that's where you get things like the boy bands and the pop musicians. Yeah, maybe. i mean Which is, you know, yeah, it sells. I mean, I don't want to take away from that because let's let's look at the Bee Gees, right? Right.
00:09:02
Speaker
The Bee Gees believed deeply in what they were doing. They loved what they were doing. Right. it What they were doing just happened to also be popular. Yes.
00:09:12
Speaker
Right. They got a lot of crap for that. Right. But they never, ever regretted it. that this is This is what they loved. this the only choice they had. You know?
00:09:24
Speaker
Like, they they just got lucky in the fact that... Well, they got unlucky and then unlucky. Lucky because their stuff was very popular. Because just was. It was catchy. It was all those things. And then they got unlucky because then there was a backlash against it because it was popular.
00:09:42
Speaker
Right. You know? Right. Like, it's weird, this this life we live in, this world we live in, because that's the way it is. i I really believe because of all those examples that the only way to do this in a way that... that at least that I can keep my interest in it, is to follow what I believe is right for the particular thing I'm doing, whether it's the game or the story I'm
Artistic Integrity vs. Industry Pressure
00:10:11
Speaker
writing or whatever. Whatever it needs is what it gets.
00:10:15
Speaker
oh I'll give an example of somebody, an art an artist, quote, well, director, really, who compromised and and the product suffered for it. And it's David Fincher, who prior to Alien 3 had only done like music videos.
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah. He did Vogue as one of them. Right. Phenomenal director. Amazing. Films are amazing. Yes. Everybody hates Alien 3. The problem is that David Fincher didn't get to do, he didn't get to create the vision he saw because this was his first cinematic film.
00:10:54
Speaker
And he felt so much pressure and was under so much pressure from the studio to do it the way they wanted it from the producers and, you know, whatever. And he compromised way too much. Like he had to fight every day with them about, you know, his ideas and his visions. And yeah he was compromising on all of them.
00:11:12
Speaker
To the point where even Sigourney Weaver has come out and said, i think it's one of one of the greatest films because I know what it was intended to be. And I know David Fincher's talent. And i they were so stupid to not let him do what he wanted to do.
00:11:25
Speaker
But David Fincher's like disavowed the movie. Yeah. Wants to forget about it. It was a terrible experience for him. And yet he's done so many great films since then and has done so many great music videos even continuing since then as well.
00:11:41
Speaker
Yep. And it's, it's, that's just an example where somebody, you know, he he, he felt pressured because it was his first film and he didn't, he wanted to get into this industry and, you know, felt the pressure. Yeah. sometimes you have to, right? I mean.
00:11:56
Speaker
But it didn't help him, which was which is ironic. Right. It didn't help him as far as being a a film director. It's the same with David Lynch and Dune, right? He felt like yeah that was just not the movie for him because he had to bow too much to the, to the,
00:12:11
Speaker
Source material and the studio. Right, right. And I still love Dune. I kind of love it. But it's not what David Lynch wanted Dune to be. Right, right. I would have been very, very curious to know how he would have done it as if he didn't have those...
00:12:31
Speaker
You know, those pressures. Right. When he was young and and just starting out, like he had done Elephant Man and you know, they gave him Dune. And then he he finally realized, no, I can't do it this way.
00:12:43
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I have to do it some other way. And he found a way to do it where he didn't have to. he could He could do what he believed in. Right.
Balancing Creativity and Market Strategies
00:12:52
Speaker
Right. Now, I'm not saying that you're doing what you believe in is going to sell. i can't guarantee that. no, no. no but But at the very least, even if it doesn't sell, it's yours.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah. Right? And you your it's your passion. It's your idea. And it's your output. It's your input and output. And yeah, maybe it doesn't sell. Maybe it does. Who knows?
00:13:15
Speaker
you know Yeah. I mean, if again, you look at like... Look at Dirty Dancing, for example. There's another one where they're just making the movie they want to make.
00:13:26
Speaker
They were just very passionate about making this movie. And there was a lot of skepticism about it. It has turned into a classic movie. Yeah.
00:13:37
Speaker
And it wouldn't have unless they had people behind it who were making what they believed in. Yeah. It's true. So that's all I'm saying is, and, and so given that starting place, right, there are multiple times in the process of making on cluster where I was, I felt the pressure to change things based on what I thought people might want.
00:14:06
Speaker
Right.
00:14:08
Speaker
That's not a bad pressure to feel. I want to make sure that that's clear. like that's there's There's nothing wrong with feeling that pressure and to evaluate it and to really go through the things that you know you're like, okay, so
00:14:25
Speaker
do we would would the Savage Worlds audience really much rather have a post-apocalyptic setting or or a all the things have gone wrong, let's try to make them right again.
00:14:35
Speaker
Right, yeah. In that case, it didn't matter to me whether they wanted that or not. But it was a worthy exercise to think about. That's one of the one of the things that I thought about quite a bit.
00:14:49
Speaker
there's There's many, many others. Everything from big sweeping decisions I made all the way to little decisions like how much read aloud text and stuff. that i've went through I went through caves of horror with this.
00:15:03
Speaker
And I finally came out the other side feeling pretty good about it. yeah But not everybody's going to like it. Right? The point is i did what I believed in and
00:15:17
Speaker
I think that gives it a chance. I think it makes it unique enough. It makes it my vision enough that it's not going to look like anything else. Yeah. And it doesn't.
00:15:29
Speaker
And that it has a chance to be something bigger.
00:15:35
Speaker
It probably won't. But
00:15:40
Speaker
that's the only way to go. Right. The only way to go. ah what What decisions would you make with OnCluster that would make it more quote-unquote marketable or saleable?
00:15:53
Speaker
what would what would What would you do? i don't know what you'd do.
00:15:58
Speaker
i don't know how I don't know how... That would compromise it and dilute it and make it not interesting. Well, I think still, you know even even when we when there's there There are still some factors that we incorporate into our projects to make it sellable. Oh, yes. and and i think And I think it's unconscious. We're going to get to that. Yes. Because there's there's things like, for example, like you don't deviate too far from like, say, the core savage world's rules, right?
00:16:26
Speaker
you There are certain patterns you follow, certain certain even just minimum basic marketing things that you do that other you know publishers or other products have done. Yep. You follow some of those guidelines and and patterns and whatnot.
00:16:42
Speaker
Um, so, so it's not to say that you don't, you know, you're like throw everything else, you know, out, I'm going to do everything unique in my own way. Like there's going some things you, you, yeah.
Uniqueness vs. Market Familiarity
00:16:53
Speaker
Right. Like you want some amount of consistency and recognition in terms of like, you know, what people are expecting, you know? So, so there's that, audience you know, so you're, yeah.
00:17:07
Speaker
It's all with, within a bound of, What is right for the project? Right. And like I said, that's hard enough. It's it's hard enough to do that.
00:17:18
Speaker
um But certainly Han Cluster was, you know, I made decisions like, I want this to look like a pinnacle product. Right, right. I want this to like...
00:17:30
Speaker
like I mean, to to a certain extent, I want it to read like a pinnacle product, meaning there's a certain writing style that's involved. But I also know that my writing style is very unique and I want my writing style to show through. Right.
00:17:46
Speaker
You know, it it's and it's important. Right. that That weird sense of humor that's sort of underneath a lot of the stuff, like when you first go to Earth or something like that, it's hysterical what happens.
00:18:00
Speaker
And you're at the very pinnacle of crisis at that point. And you're given this chance to... to to to like Relax a little. Yeah.
00:18:11
Speaker
Because earth is so absurd in a way. Yeah. And yet believably absurd. And and it's it's one of those things like, yeah, i wanted, ah this is important. this is This is what I want.
00:18:22
Speaker
This is important. I can't just, I can't that's see what everybody else does and do that. I have to do my thing there. and Every setting should have its unique characteristics anyway. Yeah. Every publisher should have a unique voice.
00:18:33
Speaker
Yes. But at the same time, you know, having it feel and look and feel like a, an official Savage Rolls product gives it um familiarity.
00:18:45
Speaker
Yes. So there's, you know, they it's not, it's not so out there. Like for example, I love the idea of low life, right? Great setting, great concept.
00:18:56
Speaker
But when I read it, it's so different that I'm trying to like, my like my brain is trying to like rethink or reshape how I understand ah savage a savage world setting, you know, but it's, but it's, uh, it's still entertaining to read. You don't get me wrong. It's a great product.
00:19:15
Speaker
Um, but it's definitely, I mean, you want to talk about unique voice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that that product has a very unique voice. and Yeah.
00:19:27
Speaker
And, you know, you that's where it comes in. It's like I said at the very beginning, like where you start? Okay. What's marketable? What's sellable? That becomes more important. As you move toward production and and and actually sharing this with the world and and you start to make decisions based on that.
00:19:47
Speaker
And it's okay to make those decisions like, okay, is this good art? Is this bad art? Is this art that's going to be compelling to people or not? Right.
00:19:57
Speaker
And, and those are as much as they are art decisions. They are also marketing decisions. Yeah. That's, I mean, there's nothing that compromises your art by making it a marketing decision, which is why partly it took a month. It took a month and a half, two months to come up with the idea for the artwork for the covers.
00:20:23
Speaker
Cause I'm like, these are the things that have to sell it right the there's The pressure is enormous on those because they're expensive and I've got to make sure it's right.
00:20:35
Speaker
Not just for the art of the book, not just for what's happening, for what the what what I believe the book is, but also as an appealing thing that somebody walking up to it might look at and say, oh, I want to buy that.
00:20:50
Speaker
you know, these are all both marketing decisions and art decisions. yeah And it merges in this sense of what's fun, right? what's What's compelling? What's fun? What's
Challenges of Staying True to Vision
00:21:02
Speaker
interesting? From the writing all the way up to the art, all the way to the marketing, all those things are sort of interwoven at that point.
00:21:11
Speaker
But if you stop believing in what you're doing and start to deviate from the art and the marketing... That's when you get into so some real trouble. At least I Yeah, no, for me, it it kills whatever passion I have for it.
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah. Because now it no longer feels like my product. So I ah had an experience with this years ago. i was working on a setting under Reality Blurs. It was um is called, we called it Life After Death. I wasn't um wasn't sold on the title.
00:21:42
Speaker
um But it was Zombie Apocalypse. The inspiration for it came... not from the walking dead not from even george romero none of those things it actually came from max brooks zombie survival guide and also ah world war z more so world war z because of the way the stories were told they were they were interviews kind of like a studs turkle you know uh interviewed style format and um you know it it it ah It really looked at the sort of human human aspect of what the experience of a zombie war in this case was like. And it and it touched on a lot of social political sociopolitical stuff. Max Brooks actually has a degree um you know in that in that area.
00:22:33
Speaker
And so he brought that to to the story. Well, all these stories, all these individuals' stories that he created with these interviews in the book. and and And that's what appealed to me about it. It was like, wow, there's some there are some situations that we don't think about socially and politically, right?
00:22:52
Speaker
that really shape, you know, how we might respond to ah zombie outbreak and trying to survive it and also just trying to recover from it. Cause they do recover from it. To be clear, there's like a sort of a rebuilding of the world afterward.
00:23:07
Speaker
Um, and then the zombie survival guide itself, which was a, that was actually a comedy, you know, a humor book. Um, just the way it was written out was very technical um But it was also very like, I thought it was a great foundation for, you know, here's how you deal with zombies tactically and, you know, strategically.
00:23:30
Speaker
um And so that's that's where that's where I wanted it to go. But then it started turning into, well, you know, there's like... you know Resident Evil and um Left 4 Dead video game franchises you know with all the weird zombies and stuff like that and you know all these weird zombie movies and whatever.
00:23:52
Speaker
um And you know one of the things that... uh the person i was working with wanted to put into it was like well let's let's create a zombie generator then we can have like weird zombies and stuff and some of them were kind of cool some of the things we came up with were kind of cool but it just felt like i don't want zombies to be the subject i wanted some zombies to be the environment yeah and that's a very different thing you know Um, and then I, just kind of slowly started falling out of love with it as a result. And you know, I still worked on it, put it together, whatever it looked, it was looking good.
00:24:30
Speaker
um and then just after a while, I just kind of stepped away from it. I was just like you know, i don't, I don't know if I want to finish this. Also at that time, um there were other zombie products that were coming out, um, from other companies, you know other publishers.
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah. And there was also a bit of zombie fatigue that started happening because there was so much zombie media with walking dead and other stuff. And it was just kind of like, okay, I think this market has, it's oversaturated at this point. I think people are kind of getting tired of zombies. So, so I just walked away from it. But, um, yeah.
00:25:02
Speaker
But that was a case of, yeah, of where the vision I had, yeah you know, the the the resulting product deviated too far from it. And it was just like, I ended up doing it for a homebrew thing, um which was great. I loved it.
00:25:17
Speaker
You know, I had fun with that. But um and I've thought about revisiting it now that zombies aren't as big as they used to be. Yeah. um But I don't know. That's for a future date, I guess. Maybe. Yeah.
00:25:30
Speaker
But um yeah, you know, i think I think
Balancing Business and Passion
00:25:32
Speaker
you're right. It's all that to say, yeah if you start compromising, then maybe it doesn't feel like your thing anymore. And then you kind of like lose that steam and the passion you're like, oh, you know, yeah, like I can do it this way, but do I still love it?
00:25:50
Speaker
Is it still mine? Yeah. And maybe you don't have to love it, you know? I mean, that that some people some people look at it as a business and approach it that way. Yeah, that's a really good point. Because sometimes too, yeah, maybe not every designer is designing for the sake of, I want to put this thing that I love out into the world.
00:26:11
Speaker
Some people just want to start publishing games. And they want to make sure that the company is viable. You know, they're putting their all their eggs, maybe not all their eggs, but maybe most of their eggs in this basket. And they need it to be viable, you know, and and and be successful and so on. And then so they maybe they are producing, maybe they're not producing D&D or Savage Rules are producing D&D stuff because that sells.
00:26:33
Speaker
Even if they don't like D&D, really, yep that's what they're doing. And right it it might work for them, right? Right. For for me, it doesn't. It's not wrong. No, that's not wrong. It's not wrong.
00:26:44
Speaker
No. And i Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's it's there's There's nothing wrong with it. the the I know that Brandon, we've talked to Brandon before, and he you know he's he's very ah he he wants to to sell the big thing that he can sell so that he can finance the little things. Yes, exactly. One thing that really bothers me, though...
00:27:09
Speaker
is that just because it's a project you believe in or it's something that's passionate that you're passionate about doesn't mean it's not going to sell.
00:27:22
Speaker
no, no. no and and these are not there seems to be a yeah There seems to be a rift there where people assume, okay, well, this is your art project. You want to get your art out. I'm like, yeah, but I want it to sell too.
00:27:33
Speaker
You know, i Partly it's because i want I want to sustain it, you know, yeah but it's <unk> I'm not just doing this for my own vanity. I'm doing it because I want to share it with people who hopefully are interested in it too, right? So I i want these things to become something bigger.
00:27:54
Speaker
It's not just, you know, a... ah something that i'm that I'm passionate about that I don't expect to go anywhere, right? And I'm making decisions based on that.
00:28:06
Speaker
So I don't know. That's a pet peeve of mine because there's there's there's this there seems to be this either-or thing. yeah Either you want to sell it or it's just a vanity project that you know maybe you'll sell a few, but...
00:28:23
Speaker
you know, whatever. And, and that's neither of those is the case. Yeah. It's tricky too, because, you know, it's tricky too because You know, so we were we were talking about the music industry earlier, and there are there are some distinct differences, obviously. One, there was a whole industry, like, i mean, like big mega, you know, corporations behind the music industry, right?
00:28:46
Speaker
That are pushing out certain artists that they think, hey, you know what Like even Prince, you know, i mean, or don't try to think of a really good, unique artist. I'm drawing a blank. i don't know why. There's so many, but...
00:28:59
Speaker
You know, where they they do put that unique, weird thing out there and it takes off. Right. And that's great. It's lightning in a bottle. They caught it, you know. um But then for all those things that they do, there's also the safe bets that they put out that make all the money and and so on.
00:29:18
Speaker
Sell the tickets, sell the T-shirts, the CDs, whatever, whatever they sell now. I don't know.
00:29:25
Speaker
Streaming subscription services. um But, um you know, we don't really have that with the RPG industry. Not really. and the only The closest we have is if going to sell it for 5e, probably have a bigger audience. Yes. Right. Exactly. is... It still has to be good. Right. It still has to be good.
Leading with Vision for Creative Success
00:29:46
Speaker
Yeah. But you might have a bigger audience there. Right. Right. And, um you know, so I i think... You know, there is there is a possibility of like, oh, that weird thing takes off. But I think I think more than with the music industry, RPGs kind of feel like to me, correct me if I'm wrong. And I would love to hear that or see the discussion on this.
00:30:09
Speaker
um That most of the time people are kind of looking for a little bit more of the same or meaning not just standard fantasy D&D, but more of something they've played already. Oh, yeah, that's true of all.
00:30:23
Speaker
mean Right. So if there's right of all media, but I think even more so because there's an experience tied to role playing games like, oh, I played this when I was a kid. I want more of that.
00:30:35
Speaker
Right. Yeah. you know i With music, it's like, oh, let me hear this new unique thing. oh that's kind of cool and interesting. So that I feel like there's a little bit more forgiveness with music, in my opinion.
00:30:48
Speaker
um But with RPGs, people are are that there's they want to be... they kind of, they kind of lean more toward the safe bets more so than, than not. For sure.
00:30:59
Speaker
It's just the same with movies, you know, and then the killer, you know, catch 22 there, of course, is that if you, if you say, if you take a poll of what the audience wants,
00:31:12
Speaker
They regurgitate what they want, which is going to be all over the place. And you somehow manage to like, you know, interpret this in a way that comes up with some coherent idea yeah and you produce it for them. Nobody will buy it.
00:31:25
Speaker
Right. There needs to be a leader. Yeah. You have to have a vision. Otherwise, there's no leader, You're not leading anybody anywhere.
00:31:37
Speaker
Like, you know what I mean? Like if it's it's, it's, if you, if you design by committee, by audience committee and do all the, okay, what do you want? And then try to give it to them.
00:31:49
Speaker
doesn't work. Yeah. But if you lead them, then you have a chance to do something great. Right. You know? Yeah. i it's it's proven again and again and again.
00:32:03
Speaker
Yeah. Now that said, that doesn't mean you can't make money by doing that if that's all you want to do. Right. We all do it every day, right? I mean, i do CAD work every day so I can support my hobbies in off time.
00:32:17
Speaker
That CAD work is a safe bet. Like I'm going to get money for it. I'm going to do it. And ah it's not particularly passionate of mine, although it used to be like I got into it for that reason.
00:32:30
Speaker
But now it's just, it's my job. but I do it. I make money doing it. But I mean, we all do it. All of us do it. But in the in in any kind of artistic industry where where the product is a story or the product is an experience,
00:32:49
Speaker
Makes it much harder to do it. It's a weird business. It is a very weird business. yeah You know, it's a weird market. It is. It is. Yeah. And it's the the only way I know how, and the only and Shane has said this too, the only way we know how to do this is by doing what we believe is right for that product.
00:33:10
Speaker
Yeah. independent of whether it's, whether the audience says it's right or not, or whether it sells or not. And the thing is right for the product sometimes means this is going to sell better because I did this.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yes. Sometimes that's the right answer. Yeah. I, I, I really believe that. Um, because for the, for the product to not seem like any, something else that already exists out there, you have to give it the uniqueness that your vision had.
00:33:39
Speaker
Yeah, you have to take that chance. Yeah. You have to. It might not do well. It might not. Yep. that's That's a chance. might do great. People might cling on to it and be like, this is phenomenal. like You know, I'm sure Shane was probably feeling this way when he wrote Deadlands.
00:33:53
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, yeah. was like, oh, my God. Is this going to do, you know, yeah you know Westerns weren't big. Do people want this? Yeah. Do people want Westerns? do they want Weird West? I don't know. And, you know, it's like a flagship product. right Like, Shane, this is what I want.
00:34:10
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Exactly. And I'm going to leverage all my talents and learn all the things that I need to learn to make this the best I can make it. Right. And then we put it out there and see what happens.
00:34:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:24
Speaker
And so far in the, in the small sample size that I've gotten, we've,
00:34:32
Speaker
I believe what I've set out to do is happening, meaning that people are reading what i'm seeing what I wrote and going, oh, this is really cool. This is interesting. This is easy to read. This is just like a pinnacle product. This is really exciting. it's it's one of the like i got One person said to me today, it was one of the best setting books they've ever read.
00:34:54
Speaker
Wow. And I'm like, okay. Wow. That is you know, I was such relief. That's powerful. Yeah. Such relief. And that's the one person, the one person I reach, right. Is enough.
00:35:06
Speaker
It's the guy in the back of the, back the audience, screaming the lyrics, screaming the lyrics of head like hole back to Trent Reznor. Right. Yeah. And, and that's, I know that's not the only one who's going to feel that way. Right.
00:35:18
Speaker
Right. So in a certain way, yes, I did it. There's still a whole lot of anxiety. there's of course. There's still a whole lot to do. Right.
00:35:29
Speaker
But I feel like vindicated in the decisions that I made to stay true to what my idea was. Yeah.
00:35:40
Speaker
Because otherwise it could disappear. It would just diminish. It wouldn't, it would be like something
Conclusion and Community Invitation
00:35:46
Speaker
else. It would be out there and you would feel like that's not mine. Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:52
Speaker
Right. Whereas now, even, even let's say, let's say it it's not successful. Just, I hope that doesn't happen, but but if it does, it does, whatever. Right. But it's your thing.
00:36:03
Speaker
Yeah. That's out there. Right. Yeah. It's what I intended. Yeah. And I learned from it if it's not successful and then I can move forward from there.
00:36:15
Speaker
You know? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I don't want to discount anybody who's who who really does look at these things in a more business-like way. It's just hard for me personally, because of my personality, to look at it any other way than doing what's right for the product first.
00:36:36
Speaker
Right. Because um this this business is too hard to do otherwise. You know? Like i can do i could do any number of other things and make a lot more money for a lot less stress.
00:36:53
Speaker
It's true. So why not do what you believe in when you're doing this stuff?
00:37:01
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, and there, you know, again, just want to reiterate, there's nothing wrong with taking the safe bet. You know, if that's, if that's what you want to do and that's what you're comfortable with and that's what you feel, you know pride in, go for it.
00:37:13
Speaker
um You know, and yeah, I mean, like I said, there's nothing wrong with that. you know But if it's something that you're like, I'm creating this for my vision, I suggest sticking to the vision.
00:37:26
Speaker
Yeah. You have to make good marketing decisions too. You do. Yeah. You do. Yeah. Don't get too weird with your rules because then people might get put off.
00:37:37
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's true. yeah It's true. Like it's, it's, it's not all my way or the highway. It it can't be. Yeah. And that, that we'll get into that next week when we talk about play testing.
00:37:50
Speaker
Yeah. Oh yeah.
00:37:56
Speaker
All right. Is that it? Have we, have we, have we hit this dead horse enough or? I think so. um And, you know, some of these things, we've we've talked about some of these things in other contexts previously. We'll probably talk more about them in other contexts in future episodes because these are sort of recurring elements um throughout all different stages, all different aspects, all different layers of RPG production, writing, creating in general.
00:38:20
Speaker
So, yeah. But i think I think we did a pretty good job of hitting all the... the the uh, the high point I can talk the high points. Yes. The highlights, the main points, the, yeah.
00:38:37
Speaker
Well, just in case you're not tired of, of, of all this talk about Hunk Huster already. And it's fine. If you are, I totally understand, but the pre-order store is up. I just thought I'd mention it.
00:38:48
Speaker
Um, we had crowdfunding before, but now there's a pre-order store. So if you missed it or couldn't do the crowdfunding or whatever, it's up there. You just go to the, um, uh, the backer kit and what used to be the backer kit crowdfunding page. And there's, is's a pre-order button there and you can order stuff and there.
00:39:07
Speaker
So there it is. I'll leave it at that. Cool. Uh, thank you for listening to the designing problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community.
00:39:18
Speaker
If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs or roadblocks, or simply interact with cool group of supportive people. We have our own discord server. Please come by, join the discussion, share and share some inspiration.
00:39:31
Speaker
Until next time, keep designing your problems, because you're bound to solve a few along the way.