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Problem #22: What Was I Thinking?!
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This week, Tracy and Kristian take some time to decompress. With Han Cluster's crowdfunding and all the anxiety and excitement that comes with it in full swing, we look back on our big projects with an informal discussion of how they started, how we solved certain problems, and ultimately how they turned into run-away freight trains we could no longer control. In all seriousness, this episode tangentially explores topics of creativity, motivation, perseverance, the struggle against those who want to tear you down, and both the rewards these things can bestow, and the toll they can take on those of us who can't help ourselves. We hope that maybe you'll see a little of your own experiences in ours, and maybe that shared connection is enough to keep us all going.
The Han Cluster on BackerKit! - https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/ede-sol-games/han-cluster-optimistic-sci-fi-rpg?ref=podcast-link
Join our discord!: https://discord.gg/Bc9dvuzZYJ
The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore.
00:00:16
Speaker
We're your hosts for this cathartic decompression. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 22.
Weekly Topic Introduction: Problem Number 22
00:00:22
Speaker
What was I thinking?
00:00:45
Speaker
Like, why? How did this all start? How did you how how did i start getting into this? How did i even do, say, Savage Eberron? How did you get from an idea with HonCluster to this backer kit campaign you're running?
00:01:03
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. i So to get started...
Backer Kit Campaign Experience
00:01:09
Speaker
ah this is going to kind of free form. We have some questions to ask each other, but part of part of the reason we wanted to do this, at least I wanted to do it was I'm in the middle of a backer kit,
00:01:23
Speaker
crowdfunding campaign for Hancluster right now. And ah that is a trying and emotional experience. It's exciting um and it's it's cool. And it's also anxiety-ridden and it has all those things. There's nothing anybody can do about it. It's just the way it is.
00:01:41
Speaker
but and And for anybody who doesn't know, it's going well. It is. Don't let Tracy's depiction make it sound like it's bad. It's going well. But just needed a little less structure and a little more ability to talk about...
Learning from RPG Design Mistakes
00:01:57
Speaker
ah the Maybe my process, maybe maybe delve into Christian's process to to sort of go through some of our highs and lows in some of the big projects that we have done.
00:02:12
Speaker
Yeah. because i think you know we we With this podcast, we've talked about, you know, what are the good ways, the right ways, you know, to do things. But truth be told, a lot of that and we learned through experience by doing it the wrong way.
00:02:25
Speaker
Yes. like Like we joked about our original title is, you know, RPG Design. Design the Hard. Hard Way. Yeah. And the reason it was that it initially was because that's what happened.
00:02:37
Speaker
Right. We went through those, you know, those challenges, the learning experiences, the growing pains and so on um through these projects.
Value of Retrospectives in RPG Design
00:02:47
Speaker
And so I think, yeah, to your point, Tracy, you know, you're doing this backer kit looking back, you know, it's a good time to kind of have that retrospective.
00:02:56
Speaker
It's like, you know, talking heads. Well, how did I get here? You know? And I think that's the hope here is we're trying to connect what's our with our pain and our and our excitement and our triumphs and and our frustrations and all that stuff. just as ah Let's pump the brake just a little bit and revisit.
00:03:17
Speaker
and revisit Like what got us into this in the first
Evolution of Savage Eberron
00:03:22
Speaker
place? So what what ah what is your, is your like big project Savage Eberron?
00:03:29
Speaker
Is that the So far, that's the big one. That's the one that's done, right? Yeah. Yeah. And in I don't know about you, but for me, I feel like it was... I look back at it was kind of accidental, you know, starting it. And it was just a fun thing I wanted to do because when I first read Savage Worlds, it seemed like a perfect fit. I wanted to, you know, take a stab at making just a small little document that I could give to people to run a game.
00:03:59
Speaker
Yeah. and you know, part of it was you know engaging on the on the community forums back Pinnacle had forums and you know paying attention to what people were saying on there, posting my own stuff and you know reading their their responses. And back then, and and I think still largely, the Savage Worlds community was very...
00:04:24
Speaker
very ah respectful. is I think it was known for being a pretty respectful community. And so the feedback you got were they were critiques, not criticisms. It was, you know, things to consider and think about. um They were receptive to, you you know, why you made certain design choices and, you know, would give feedback based on that.
00:04:45
Speaker
And it was really conducive to learning, you know, how to, how to basically you know, make something for Savage Worlds, whether it's a fan thing or, you know, something long term as a product.
00:04:57
Speaker
And so
00:05:00
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, I started with this, I thought, okay, well, this is, there's something here. People have tried this in the past, you know, for Eberron, but they didn't really go that far. And, and so I just thought, well, let me just keep going. Let me, let me keep making as much content for Savage Eberron as I can. I'm to have a living document, a Google doc that anybody can access.
00:05:20
Speaker
People can comment, they can give feedback and, And I ah think one of the things I maybe regret was doing that for too long with the open Google Doc and and getting the comments and you know
Navigating Fan Content Policies
00:05:35
Speaker
responding. yeah um And it was why with Adventure Edition, when when a Adventure Edition came out, I was like, I want to make the final definitive one. I'm tired of doing iterations. I'm tired of reconsidering my design choices. I'm tired of second guessing or...
00:05:51
Speaker
Or people telling me how i how they would have done it differently. and you know yeah Which I you know i i appreciate there their efforts. Nobody was ever disrespectful about it. It was always with genuine interest and care.
00:06:07
Speaker
um So that's what I guess that's what I mean by it was an accident, you know, because it was like, it started just as this fan thing that I was doing. And then and then with the suede version, with that decision to finally put something on, I'm like, okay, well, I should really make sure...
00:06:24
Speaker
Legally, this is going to be okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And open up a door. Right. And so, you know, and that's when I, you know, I tried to reach out to Watsi, you know, I got in touch with somebody um and you know, and they, they, they, it was a lot of being routed around from one person to the next, you know, um went from legal to ah ah forgot what was the other department, but then finally to licensing.
00:06:55
Speaker
And um they got to look at the document. They said, yeah, this all looks great. you know I wasn't using any artwork. I wasn't using any lore. It was all my own wording. It was um yeah it's still required the books to to to use it.
00:07:12
Speaker
and um And they just gave me a couple notes to put in you know just to make it clear. yeah And they said, yeah, it's it's good. yeah is This falls under our fan content policy. You're good.
00:07:25
Speaker
And um then I was like, well, I've done a lot of work on this and that's cool because the fan content policy allows me to like accept donations or advertising revenue around it or whatever.
00:07:36
Speaker
But the Savage Worlds fan license doesn't allow me to get any money from And that kind of sucks. So now you're on another opening another door. Right. So that was, okay, well, want to make money off of this.
00:07:48
Speaker
And um you know the the fan license doesn't let me do that, but becoming an ace does. So we had already had Herbal Alchemy and and Artificer's Codex available. And so, you know, i was able to then use that as part of my application to becoming an ace.
00:08:03
Speaker
And then I got the approval, became an ace. And then I chose to put out Savage Eberron as a free product, published under the material plane yeah so that it still complies with the fan content policies and the google doc is free you can copy it download it save it do whatever you want with it um just as wizards of the coast requires and then if you want to get the nice fancy pdf you can get it you know for for like what do we consider a donation basically yeah
00:08:35
Speaker
And, and then of course, same thing with the print copy, it's print on demand. If you want the print copy, you're literally just paying cost. Like there is no profit on that really, you know? Uh, well there's, there is some, but it's not, we're not like, you know, it's, it's, it's an option. You don't have to buy the book, right? You can get the Google doc for free.
Adventure Edition's Influence on Design
00:08:55
Speaker
Um, um,
00:08:57
Speaker
so yeah So yeah, it just kind of like, like I said, just sort of stumbled my way through it to where eventually it became this book. yeah um but But a lot of the, you like I said, the imp the impetus ah to to go for the book, the final version was because I was actually tired of the conversations and the debates and the rethinking of the approaches and whatever. And I'm like, that's, that's what I regret. I don't mind getting feedback. I liked the feedback. Some things were, I did get a lot of good feedback in terms of things that I actually did incorporate and in the credits, I even credit any, anybody who ever gave me something like that.
00:09:36
Speaker
and I put their name in if I used, know, their ideas. And so that's on the credit page. And, um, Yeah, that's kind of what happened. And then now we're an ace. So, hey, let's make more Savage World stuff.
00:09:51
Speaker
That's what we're doing. What are we doing this for if if if not do that, yeah right? Right, right. And it was a really good learning experience, too, in terms of learning how to write for an RPG, you know looking at other existing products and whatnot, and and then you know getting feedback from people. Really, there's a lot that I learned through that process.
00:10:09
Speaker
So do you think...
Finalizing an RPG Product: When to Stop Iterating?
00:10:11
Speaker
I mean, i have my I have my thoughts about this, but but do you do you think that if you had taken less time, if you had gone for it earlier, meaning, okay, I'm tired of all this feedback, blah, blah, blah. I'm going to crystallize this into something that's final.
00:10:28
Speaker
If you had done that earlier, would it be the same product? Yeah. No. And in fact, ah it was Adventure Edition in particular that when i when I looked at the changes they were making and how they were kind of opening up the system a little bit in terms of what it could do, yeah that's when I thought, now I can do these things I've been trying to do with Eberron in a much better way.
00:10:53
Speaker
And the same thing with when the Fantasy Companion, you know when the first PDF came and I looked at it, I was like, ugh. Perfect. This is everything. Now I have to have to iterate on what I did, but it's going to be better. i actually i actually stalled on the book waiting for the Fantasy Companion once I heard that they were working on it. Yeah. um Because I wanted to see what they were going to do with it.
00:11:14
Speaker
and see if you know what i wanted to incorporate and i'm so glad i did because it was literally i i i know it's stupid but i feel like wow it's almost like they were writing this forever on because there's so many things that worked well and i'm sure if i were working on dark sun i'd feel the same way me but they did such a great job with the fantasy companion. I'm i'm really glad I waited on that.
00:11:35
Speaker
So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it probably wouldn't have been the book it is. It would not be absolutely not. I don't think it would be as good as it is now. Yeah. Honestly. And that's, that's that balance, right?
Character Development in RPGs
00:11:48
Speaker
It's like, is, is how much time do you spend on this stuff?
00:11:52
Speaker
When is the time to go? Like to hit the go button. And I hope everybody knows what I mean by that. Like at some point you're going to be messing around with it. You're going to be like noodling. You're going to be changing stuff and you're going to be, it's going to be a flowy kind of thing.
00:12:09
Speaker
Until you hit the go button. Yeah. And then all of a sudden these flowy things have to start to become much more crystallized. Yeah. And much more, much more, you know, final.
00:12:22
Speaker
Final. Yeah. Yeah. And in I think the other thing too, is that we, we had actually started working on Explorer before I started, um you know, really like really hammering out. Like it was when I heard about the fantasy companion coming up.
00:12:38
Speaker
And I, I, that's when I actually paused, we paused on Explore so I could focus on just getting this Savage Eber on this definitive version out. Yeah. And, and so it, it did end up taking time away from that, but in the end it was like, I, you know, I don't regret it cause I'm glad, I'm glad we got it out there.
00:12:56
Speaker
And then we were able to come back, you know, to explore when, when we were, you know, done with that. So, yeah.
Early Development of Han Cluster
00:13:03
Speaker
Hmm. So for me, it was – I've talked – I've ah probably talked about this before, but it basically started as ah as a little word doc that I was like, 300 years in the future, blah happened. years after that, well Yeah, through it was really ah ecological sort of um commentary, not a commentary, but a speculative ecological
00:13:31
Speaker
yeah d That's cool. In the very beginning, when those first few paragraphs is like, well... It's the what if. That's exactly what if Earth consumes itself to death as as or amuses itself to death, as Roger Waters would say.
00:13:45
Speaker
um And we get to the very brink. Yeah. And then all of a sudden we discover hyper hyper drives, hyperspace travel. Right. So we go somewhere, we settle.
00:13:56
Speaker
The next wasn't even a ah blip on the radar at that point. yeah It was just an ecological, like, we have to find greener pastures. right and We have to figure this out. I was going to say, it kind reminds of Titan A.E., which I love.
00:14:09
Speaker
It was a story, like that whole, you know, the earth is falling apart. and yes Or they were being attacked, I think it was what it was. and Yeah, they, yeah. But yeah, it was always, at that point, it was still about connection because that's what I'm about. that's It's everything everything about me is that.
00:14:26
Speaker
And so it was still about that. It still had that kernel of this is what's different, you know? and um why Why connection? Why was that a focal point at that at that time? it was What was it then? Because growing up,
00:14:40
Speaker
growing up Playing RPGs. It was fun. it was great fun. But I always wanted something else. ah not Not else, but more. i wanted something more. Like we would play that we played the heck out of Champions. Daryl and I and my friend yeah Mac and my friend Kosky would play Champions when I was in junior high school. It was great fun.
00:15:00
Speaker
sitting around on a hex tile floor of my friend Dave's house. And we would actually put just use that as the map, right? Nice. And we'd have three, four-hour combats, as you do in Champions. And we had no cares in the world because we were junior high school students and whatever.
00:15:18
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And, but as I got older and I got invited to game at other places because I, I guess I'd gamed well at one of the conventions that I went to way back, way back when um they started to introduce the idea of character being important, you know?
00:15:40
Speaker
And to me, I was like, but i i I want that to be important. I've always wanted it be important, but I didn't know how to do it at the time. Oh, right. Because you weren't really in environment where that was... i wasn't in in an environment where that was... a but i mean was Character was important, but not not exploring the depths of it. yeah Not going into what comic books do, which is the personal life of heroes. like I wanted that.
00:16:05
Speaker
but theyre not Not always. Not all of that, but some of it. And we never really did it. We tried. We did our best. But none of us really knew what we were doing. Right. And I certainly didn't.
00:16:16
Speaker
But I wanted it. I longed for it. And I glommed on to anybody who had an inkling of how to do it, you know. And so i think that's where it all started is that I want something more out of this hobby than just rolling dice and punching people.
00:16:37
Speaker
It's interesting. i think I think ultimately that's what drives people who are working on their own setting because there's something that they want and that they feel is lacking. And they're like, well, I'm going to create it.
00:16:48
Speaker
I'm going to take a stab at creating the thing that I want to enjoy. Yes. Right. I mean, I think that's certainly true of a lot of people. yeah Yeah. Like Shane talks about that. He's making things that he wants to play. Yes. You know, which I think that's a really important driver. And I'm, know, there's people who also like, I want to make a game based on this IP and that's perfectly valid because that's a thing they want and an experience they want.
00:17:09
Speaker
I want to play in this world. Right. Right. So there's,
Desire for Deeper Character Stories
00:17:12
Speaker
there's that too. And I, Brandon has said that too. He, he, he's he's trying to create something he, he, he, he's missing. Yeah. And same with Manuel of Sam's sprawl runners. He's like, nobody's doing it right.
00:17:25
Speaker
I'm going to do it right. That's right. Right. yeah Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that. Right. And don't even know if it's, if it's doing it right, but just doing it in the, in the way that I'm going to have the experience I want.
00:17:35
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so that's, I think where that all started. And that's why ho cluster, when I finally did get around to it which is about 2013 over, over 10 years ago is, is when I really got into it and and I started to understand how to do it.
00:17:54
Speaker
Because when I was a kid in junior high or high school, when I was running my first first game for my group, I was still learning how to do this. What resources were available that allowed you to start learning how to do it at that point?
00:18:10
Speaker
i mean, Daryl was still a part, I'm guessing. Daryl was there. He was not there in high school because we went to separate high schools. right He was there in junior high. And... um ah You know, I think, first of all, having a group of people who were willing to play the game that I wanted to try to run and is a big factor.
00:18:31
Speaker
And that was in that happened in high school. But also, i was just, I don't know, i was i was wiser. I was learning more than just how to game. i was learning. yeah i was reading books. I was, I was experiencing character in ways that I loved. I was learning what I liked.
System Evolution: Fate to Savage Worlds
00:18:51
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that was the big influence. That does a lot, doesn't it? Yeah. Like really like, you know, the media you consume, you know, the more you watch, the more films you watch, the more books you read, you know what you like, what you don't like, what you want to see more of. Yeah. And I watched when I got out of high school, I watched hu I mean, I watched a lot of movies before that.
00:19:12
Speaker
But once I had my own VHS player and then eventually a Laserdisc player and stuff, I would just – Laserdisc, wow. Yeah, i watched movies like you would not believe. Awesome.
00:19:22
Speaker
And loved them. And I still have my favorites, of course. And and and I know what I like. And so when I was ready in 2013, I'm like, okay, so this is what i'm going to try to do.
00:19:35
Speaker
And Daryl was there and he was encouraging me and he's like, do, do what you want to do. We will follow. So you had been playing Han Cluster throughout these years. It's not like you put it on a shelf, forgot about it. and then one day was like, Hey, I want to revisit this thing. This was something that you had already been continuing. Yeah.
Innovative RPG Mechanics
00:19:53
Speaker
I mean, it really started, like I said, in 2013, when I was making a couple of paragraphs and then I brought in a couple of three by five note cards to the IHOP over down the street with Daryl and our, basically what, what was, what had crystallized at that point is our group.
00:20:11
Speaker
Yeah. And, um, I was like, Hey, do you want to try this? And at that point, Savage Worlds wasn't on the radar for me. Daryl knew about it, but we weren't, we weren't really messing with it too much. And I started in fate.
00:20:23
Speaker
So, you know, Hancluster was a fate setting for a long time. And I ran out of conventions as a Fate setting. And people loved it. And you mentioned it was a different experience and different game.
00:20:35
Speaker
Yeah. Under Fate. Fate... i like ah I can't remember how I used to put it, but but Savage Worlds has a sense of of plausible realism to it.
00:20:49
Speaker
In the sense that there's ammo in your weapons that you count. There's game... ah game to reality you know like yeah for you know like a comparison there it's almost like like a like a translation yeah for speaking the language of the game right it's a cinematic yeah explanation of gunfighting in the old west right what it's like to shoot somebody or you know like it's not real not at all it's not a simulation it's not a cinematic right like it's a cinematic thing
00:21:26
Speaker
Oh, I think, ah think when you and i talked about it once before, the way correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember you telling me something to the effect of it like it feeling like a negotiation between the GM and the player.
00:21:40
Speaker
Fate, you mean? Yes. Yes. It can be. It can be. i mean, they're even even the way I ran it, it was a little bit like that. And so some people don't like it for that reason. But the thing is, the way I run it, most people did enjoy it.
00:21:56
Speaker
That's good. but the way it's written, it's very much more that the player has more agency in in as a as a maker of the world than like.
00:22:08
Speaker
like Like both as a player and as a GM, I want to present problems to you and let you as the player react as your character and not have the burden of responsibility of trying to also create the world at the same time.
00:22:24
Speaker
Right. so Fate encourages players to help create the world. Right. So when you roll notice in fate, you're rolling to notice if a rock exists.
00:22:34
Speaker
Right. If you roll notice in Savage Worlds, you're rolling to notice whether you see the rock. Right. There's a very subtle but distinct difference there. And that is the best way I can describe the difference between the two systems. You're you're rolling for permission to add an element to the story. Yes.
00:22:54
Speaker
Right. Yes, exactly. And that is true of almost all the skills in Fate. Like, it's it's that little subtle difference. Yeah. And then the aspects.
00:23:04
Speaker
And so, and that's why Han Cluster is a different game in Fate. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I didn't want to turn this into a let's talk about Fate thing. No, no. so But I, but it's, it's the evolution, right? yeah and And then I was introduced to Savage Worlds and eventually I got so, I got comfortable enough with it that I'm like, oh yeah. And, and it just fits, this fits the, the what I want for it, which I think I've said before, which is basically, I want that level of realism there. Mm-hmm.
00:23:32
Speaker
I want space to be dangerous. I want, you know, I want things to be, optimistic and shiny until something breaks and all of a sudden you're in a horror movie.
00:23:47
Speaker
Right. right Risks feel more real.
Iterative Development Process
00:23:50
Speaker
Exactly. Right. Exactly. So anyway, that that that was the the the short version of the evolution and and it started with connection and then over time i what ah ah the next started as sort of a
00:24:10
Speaker
It wasn't what it is. it It was my idea that I was like, I want something like net running in cyberpunk but i don't want it to be net running in cyberpunk because i don't think that's super fun where it's like a single player doing things for like 30 minutes exclusive person who's got the skills goes in and runs the net and then you can have any kind of virtual reality you want but then the other players are like well how do i help you what do i what am i doing while this is happening that is not a connection Yeah, that is not a connection. What i wanted was the the net, quote unquote, to be part of reality.
00:24:53
Speaker
Yeah. That was the origin of the next. That makes sense. Yeah. Is that not one person can do this. Everybody can do it. Right.
00:25:04
Speaker
and it And it interacts with world. And it interacts directly with the real world. Mm-hmm. So basically that was my initial idea. It was not what it is now.
00:25:17
Speaker
And it certainly one wasn't what it is now until Daryl was just throwing ideas out there. and all of a sudden he's like, well, what if they could x what if they what if they bonded together? They could X bond together or not. Yeah. It was, it was it was something that was bonding. He used the bonding term yeah and he's like, and then they could do this and this and this and this and this. And then like,
00:25:39
Speaker
Whoa, wait a minute. that's He's blowing mind with your own setting. And now now i it's yeah it's like he he iterates yeah and he does it so fast and so easily that I have to stop him and say, no, that's that's the that's the golden nugget of the idea.
00:25:57
Speaker
yeah You've just found it You may not know it, but to me, that's the golden nugget. I will take that. Thank you very much, Daryl. And now I will refine it.
00:26:08
Speaker
yeah And that's generally how Daryl and I's relationship goes. is he He's like, here, have this crazy idea for the way you run mysteries, right? Which you can, if if if you're Savage Interludes listener, you we did a whole ah episode on on how I run mysteries now.
00:26:24
Speaker
Yeah. And it's all based on Daryl's idea about how to do this. And he ran one for us and it was it was great, right? yeah But then I took it and I'm like, now I'm going to refine this. I'm going perfect this because this is a great idea.
00:26:38
Speaker
And so that's that's kind of what I do is I steal Daryl's ideas and then I perfect it.
00:26:47
Speaker
So that's how the next kind of evolved. And it turned into like, then I had to solve a whole bunch of problems.
Overcoming Doubts in Development
00:26:52
Speaker
Like, are they incorporeal or are they corporeal? And for a while, it was like they're incorporeal.
00:27:00
Speaker
And i'm like, well, that that causes all kinds of problems. Yes. So then I came up with semi-corporeal, which seems like an easy solution now. But it took me months and months to get to it.
00:27:11
Speaker
Yeah. Well, we don't we don't think of that, you know, really. and Yeah. it was We're thinking of this ethereal space. Yeah, exactly. you're you're You're not even thinking, wait, what if they were just...
00:27:23
Speaker
you know, solid. Right. Exactly. Like, why how do I handle them going through walls? ah How do I do that? And it's really, it's really actually pretty simple. Yeah. And, and it also, that decision informed what the next was. Yeah.
00:27:40
Speaker
And, and what I could, what as a designer I could do with it. Yeah. Cause it's not like it's its own space. It's, it's a conduit in a way. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a conduit. It's a, it's a sort of an adjacent dimension. Yeah. It, it, it basically is the reason why hyperdrive works.
00:27:57
Speaker
Right. You're traveling partially through the next. I didn't realize that for a long time either. Yeah. You know, so I, I, it was all this stuff and, and going back to the, it takes as much time as it takes idea.
00:28:10
Speaker
um it It took as long as it took. it it If I tried to rush this, yeah if and I didn't, I just i know instinctively. I'm like, no, it's not ready yet.
00:28:24
Speaker
I'm still working on it. And umm I am working on it. It's not sitting there static. I am working on it. But if I tried to rush it, it would not be what it is now.
00:28:35
Speaker
And I would be very regretful. or Or maybe, I guess I just wouldn't know. Yeah. That it could be what it is. Yeah. Was there any point in time in the process where you went in a direction that you didn't like, or you started doubting or, um you know, or just anything you learned along the way, as far as like, Oh, I wouldn't do that again. Now I know this is how I'd approach it. You know?
00:29:02
Speaker
um i think that there's lots of those. like From like a reflective perspective. Yeah. Over 10 years of development, all all that happened lots of times. i it was It became problems to be solved. But I think the biggest biggest roadblock along the way, and this is something we talked about before the episode that I really wanted to to bring up in a way that maybe we'll people will relate to, is several years ago, i went to a convention
00:29:35
Speaker
and I had a very, very bad experience. A couple of them there.
Handling Criticism at Conventions
00:29:43
Speaker
I went there specifically to show off Hung Cluster, to allow people to give me feedback on it, to ask for feedback on it. right And ah they were strangers. Right.
00:29:58
Speaker
And some of them were um specifically there to give feedback. So they weren't necessarily interested in the setting. They were just there to give feedback. So it's like nerve wracking enough when you're running at a convention for a group of players.
00:30:10
Speaker
Yes. Who have signed up because you've got a pitch that they like. Right. Now it's people who are like, we're here to to analyze and critique or criticize Your work.
00:30:21
Speaker
Your work. And we don't really know anything about it. And we're thrown with you. No, thank you. And which is fine. There's value to that, I suppose. But I was, man, if I'd listened to them, if I'd listened to what was said, Han Cluster would be dead.
00:30:40
Speaker
Yeah. And um luckily I i didn't. And I had at that point, By the time I was going, i had already run Han Cluster for years at conventions with strangers who loved it.
00:30:56
Speaker
And I had already introduced it to Shane. And of course, Daryl had been with me the whole time. i had a bunch of people around me who were saying, no, this is worth doing. This is this is really good. You should do it.
00:31:09
Speaker
And so I had that support system for when I came back and I was just devastated yeah because I was just questioning everything. So you had your brain trust as we called it, right? Yes.
00:31:22
Speaker
You had your brain trust that you can come to and basically reassure, no, don't listen to them or you're right to not listen to them. Right. Yeah. But was also like, this is, this is the part where I'm like, uh,
00:31:38
Speaker
For our audience is is you might run into something like this. Yeah. It's maybe even more likely than not that at some point you're going to run into somebody who hits you hard with some kind of criticism that you don't, that either comes out of left field or that hits you in a soft spot that you may or may not have realized was there.
00:32:04
Speaker
yeah And it's it's up to you to figure out whether they're right or not.
00:32:16
Speaker
And that can be very, very hard. like it it can It's so easy when you're doing this, especially, and Christian can speak to this just as easily as I can, the further you get along, the harder this gets.
00:32:30
Speaker
When you're starting to look at, okay, I'm making a book now. Oh, I guess I need some art now. Oh, I need to lay it out. I need to do a crowdfunding campaign. need to you know figure out sales taxes, all this other stuff that you would never have agreed to.
00:32:45
Speaker
Way back when. No. But now this freight train is going, you know, and now you've been undermined. You've been, you've, somebody has swept the leg and you are on your ass yeah trying to figure out if you've made a huge mistake with this whole thing.
00:33:02
Speaker
Right. Right. It might happen to you. And hopefully you've built yourself up enough brain trust around you and ah had enough experience behind you to be able to say you're wrong.
00:33:19
Speaker
And I believe in this. And yeah, and that's that's the thing I
Community Support in RPG Design
00:33:24
Speaker
think. um The part that you that the part you mentioned that you had playtested it or just ran it for people, maybe not even deliberately playtesting, but just yeah running it.
00:33:34
Speaker
And you had affirmation that they loved it. You saw that they loved it. It wasn't just them telling you there. This was an actual experience you saw and felt and that it not to trivialize it, but it it's basically like usability testing. When you're designing something and you put it in front of a user,
00:33:53
Speaker
And you see whether it works or not. Yeah. Right. And I'm sure you've done iterations over the years based on the feedback you got with running with those people. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And, you know, so so really what it is, is that it's one thing for an idea to just be talked about.
00:34:08
Speaker
And people who might give feedback and, oh, I don't know, and they criticize whatever. But unless they've seen or experienced the actual play of you know of playing that game, it's kind of, I feel like it's almost unfair for them to really criticize anything until they've actually tried it.
00:34:27
Speaker
And then maybe the conversation could be about, here's how I would help you frame it. Here's what I would do to frame it so that you can convey this experience that that we just had. And I don't, so i i this convention that you, that you talked about, i'm I'm really wondering if it was, if that's really the right approach.
00:34:45
Speaker
Is that a fair approach, right? To just go and talk about the idea of the project rather than let me run you through this and then tell me what you think of it. I think to be fair, i was, I was not at the right stage of development.
00:35:04
Speaker
Yeah. to go because I was already way ahead. Yeah. and to be clear, i'm not saying this is something you should have done. i think this is something that the convention should have done in terms of how they operate.
00:35:16
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know because a lot of people go when their games are, are less developed and, And then come out with all kinds of ideas, all kinds of excitement, all kinds of like, you know, bubbling with enthusiasm because of they've got, they've been around creatives who are helping Yeah.
00:35:36
Speaker
No, I think that's, that's totally valid. I just think it'd be, it's, it's, it's easier to talk about the idea when you, when you have the experience of the idea. Yeah.
00:35:49
Speaker
And some people hadn't gotten that far. Right. Right. I guess if you don't, if you're just, if it's still a nugget of an idea. it's just a nugget of an idea. I went with one that was another nugget of an idea that was not, that was not ready to play. Yeah.
00:36:03
Speaker
That's fair. I just talked about it and that was fun. I don't know how useful it was, but it was fun. But I know that other people really swear by it and I don't, I don't yeah take that away from them. but That's fair. You know, it was, it was, it was traumatizing.
00:36:21
Speaker
And I, because of the who I am, because I'm so prone to doubt myself and to doubt what I've what i've made and and whether it's any good and whether anybody will like it.
00:36:33
Speaker
So it just hits me in that soft spot. Right. And the i I wanted to talk about it because I want our audience to know that everybody is prone to this.
00:36:45
Speaker
Yes. And it can happen to anybody. No, honestly, like I've talked about it on here and Jen and I have had conversations about like, is this, is this something people are going to like? You know, question every week. Yeah. You know, and it and it's, it's a real, it's a hard thing to to think about because it's, it's easy to talk yourself out of it.
00:37:05
Speaker
It's easy to second guess. But what we've found, and maybe this is kind of part of the process too, is sometimes we'll just sit and start talking about it. And then we find ourselves getting excited about these ideas of what the experience should be or will be and what we want to do with it and so on. And it's like, no, this is good. Yeah. And that's where we, you know regain that, yeah that momentum, you know?
00:37:29
Speaker
Yeah. If you can dive back into that work, into the creative part. So if you're doubting it, just talk about it. Talk about with somebody, share it as an idea, get, get excited while you talk about it. And I think that that goes a long way.
00:37:42
Speaker
And, uh, the further you get into the, into the logistics of it and the, the not fun part production of it. Yeah. It's easy to lose sight of that.
Podcast Conclusion and Community Invitation
00:37:54
Speaker
Super easy.
00:37:57
Speaker
Yeah. What else, Christian? I mean, i don't know if this is helping anybody, but it it helps me to talk about it a little because this has been a big part of my life for a long time.
00:38:08
Speaker
And it's coming it's coming to a big trend. it's We've hit a big transitionary stage where I'm crowdfunding. it is already successful. And I'm moving into a new stage.
00:38:20
Speaker
And i have to I have to make decisions about what's next. you know yeah And to to sit and just be with myself in this time of anxiety and to reflect with you about it has been good for me.
00:38:35
Speaker
And i hope it's I hope it's helping in some way others too. I think so. I think so. And you know i and and this is one of the reasons why i i wanted to do this podcast with you was I don't think enough designers talk about this side of being game designers.
00:38:56
Speaker
you know, these feelings, these, these, these, this roller coaster, the sine wave, you know, that we ride all the time. And, um, you know, i think a lot of that is kind of kept behind closed doors and we just,
00:39:10
Speaker
want to hype up the product itself. Yeah. We've got to be cheerleaders. Right. Right. And right, rightfully so. Cause we want to sell it. We want to, we want to pitch it. We want people to get excited about it. We want to build that audience.
00:39:22
Speaker
And, um, but I think, uh, I think it's helpful for designers to hear these kinds of things, know, especially for new designers. You know, I said, I regard us as relatively new compared to say the people who've been in in the industry for like 30 years, publishing all sorts of stuff.
00:39:40
Speaker
um I think it's helpful. you Honestly, I wish I could hear like the Monty Cooks and so on of of the game design industry talk about their emotional side of it.
00:39:55
Speaker
What have they been through? What are the pain points? What are the regrets? What are the things that they are most excited about in terms of their accomplishments? you know yeah I think that would be really cool. Yeah.
00:40:07
Speaker
yeah Anything else? No, just, you know, i think... um I think it's easy. Like you said, it's easy to get, waylaid, so to speak, you know, by some of the emotional struggles behind this.
00:40:26
Speaker
Um, and the emotional struggles can be whether it's criticism you've received or whether you're starting to self doubt or whatever it's, but you gotta find that thing. That'll, that'll keep you on the tracks.
00:40:42
Speaker
whether it's your brain trust, like you said, or your conviction, your own conviction about, no, this is good. You know, this is, I want, I want this out in the world.
00:40:53
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and just find what's important for you. Yep. All right then. Well, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast.
00:41:05
Speaker
We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server.
00:41:18
Speaker
Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems, because you're bound to solve a few along the way.