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Problem #34: Graphic Design
132 Plays25 days ago
This week, Kristian and Tracy are joined by the amazing Karl Keesler. Karl is a graphic designer by trade, and has been the designer for several PInnacle Entertainment books for Savage Worlds, including Pinebox Middle School, Lost Colony, Holler, Deadlands, the companions and many more. He also created the trade dress for Han Cluster, and for Kristian and Jen's upcoming Campaign Cartomancy. We talk to Karl about the purpose and importance of creating a cohesive look for your product, how to approach and communicate with a graphic designer, and a few other tricks and tidbits.
Join our discord!: https://discord.gg/Bc9dvuzZYJ
The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
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Transcript
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:05
Speaker
to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this mystical transformation. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 34, Graphic Design.
00:00:44
Speaker
With us, to help
Carl Kiesler's Background in RPG Design
00:00:45
Speaker
us with this awesome mystical transformation, we have the wonderful Carl Kiesler. If you may have seen his work, I remember way back in the Google Plus days, seeing all his wonderful creations at ForCon Games and whatnot, and Mystery Men is still among my my favorite, as well as the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, 80s edition wow and 70s edition.
00:01:11
Speaker
Those were awesome as well. i Carl Kiesler has done ton of layout for Pinnacle Entertainment Group, Atomic Ninja. I mean, he's done stuff for us. He's working on campaign cartomancy for us. He's done Han Cluster for Tracy.
00:01:28
Speaker
And of course, he has his own publishing company with two others, if I recall correctly. Doghouse Rules. Doghouse Rules. Yeah. and And you've done Sidewinder, Recoiled, with and so on. Yeah. Yeah.
Journey into Graphic Design and RPGs
00:01:41
Speaker
And um in of course, Trailer Park Shark Attack. Trailer Park Shark Attack, of course. take You can forget that, right? Yeah. Can't forget that one. And he will also make you feel incredibly inadequate as a GM when you see his tables.
00:01:53
Speaker
So thank you for that, Carl. Thank you. You're welcome and good night. Yeah, honestly, thank you for being here. We are, we're, I've been, this is one of the episodes I've been waiting forever to get to because I was so excited to have you here again.
00:02:10
Speaker
Um, so, or not again, but you and I have done a stream long time ago. Yeah, have. Yeah. A long time ago. Yeah. my head, it's again, Tracy's like, this is, are you talking about? This the first time. So, well, thank you for having me both you. Thank you so much.
00:02:23
Speaker
The podcast is amazing. Love it. I listen to it every week. Thank you so much. and I can. Yeah. So, um, So, Carl, you're you're the expert, because that's what we all are here, experts, as you all know. Yeah. and we're we're just kind of here to listen, actually. Okay. We want to hear some some philosophical discussions. Oh, boy.
00:02:43
Speaker
What is graphic design and trade dress? Yeah. Okay. All the So I'm going to shut up and I'm going let you talk. Okay. And Tracy, I'll let you also, i guess, say a few words if you want.
00:02:55
Speaker
Because, you know, you never say anything. ah But yeah, no. um Yeah, I'll shut up now. that Okay. So yeah, I wanted to, what that is the question. What is graphic design? Right. Because there are some designers out there who don't, who not sure.
00:03:11
Speaker
Like what it entails, what it doesn't entail, what how it can help them, all that other stuff. So i'll let you I'll let you prattle on about that. That's a great question.
What is Graphic Design in RPGs?
00:03:20
Speaker
That's what I went to school for a long time ago. i have a degree in visual communications, and that's what graphic design is. It's the art of visually communicating.
00:03:32
Speaker
um And what we're talking about with books and things like that, it's taking pictures and images and text and things like that and en arranging it in a way and ah and some sort of layout that communicates some sort of message that you're trying to get across.
00:03:46
Speaker
And my day job is advertising. So I often put automotive pictures in a thing and put a cool headline in there and a price. You know, I'm trying to tell, I'm trying to buy you this, sell you this car, yeah you know?
00:03:59
Speaker
And then, um, I guess for role-playing games, we're trying to, convey what this what this game is about. you know like um Is it a pirate game? Is it a sci-fi game? Is it something else?
00:04:13
Speaker
so That's pretty much what graphic design is. It's a form of visual communications.
Getting Started in RPG Graphic Design
00:04:20
Speaker
What got you into it? like because you're not You're obviously doing advertising, but you do role-playing game graphic design and you do your own graphic design for these incredible games that you run at cons. What got you into Got me into, the role-playing game part of it. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, wow.
00:04:41
Speaker
So
Graphic Design vs. Layout
00:04:43
Speaker
after art school, uh, I hooked up with some people and we started playing Dungeons and Dragons. Uh, I think if I remember right, it was D20 Modern had camp come out and, um,
00:04:57
Speaker
someone wanted a character sheet in the group. I'm like, hey, I can make a character for sheet for you guys. Let me try it. So i I started with a character sheet and I did this really cool character sheet. Well, I thought it was really cool.
00:05:09
Speaker
Everybody in the else group thought it was pretty cool too. And I posted it and the owner of the, back then it was a, I forget the name of the company, but it was my old buddy, Jeff Spakes, who started Doghouse Rules. He was one of the five original members of Doghouse Rules.
00:05:26
Speaker
They had um a Western game called Sidewinder, and it was it was strictly D20. It's just the this's the OGL, base core D20. We had that. I made a character sheet for it. And then um he loved it because I put it on an old
Creating RPG Layouts and Collaboration
00:05:44
Speaker
Yahoo group and he saw it. And shortly like after that, he said, hey, we're putting together D20 modern version of this because the book had just come out.
00:05:55
Speaker
Would you be involved? Would you be interested in we really like your sheet? ah Would you be interested in maybe forming a company and basically doing the graphic design work and layout of the whole book? I'm like, sure. I've never done anything like that before. i was kind of fresh out of art school, really.
00:06:13
Speaker
And I'm like, why not? You know, what I've got to lose except time? So let's let's try it. So that's really how I got started and to all of us. And ever since then, Carl's just been setting the bar so high.
00:06:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:29
Speaker
oh I appreciate it. So what is the difference? Like, I think this is also a common question for especially new designers. Like bri what is the difference between graphic design and layout?
00:06:45
Speaker
So um they're similar, obviously, but- They're sort of related to each other. They're related to each other, yes. um i like to think of graphic design is basically like the first step that you're going to take into your layout, okay? The graphic design is the selection of fonts.
00:07:04
Speaker
the colors of those fonts, the color of borders, the color of your sidebars, the the basically the overall overall look of the the book, and in this case the RPG book that we're talking about.
00:07:17
Speaker
And the layout is taking all that that you all that work you did beforehand and and Like, oh, I got this cool font. I got this cool border. and and And now I'm going to lay out the text. I'm going to use my plan that I did. Basically, it's a plan. That's what graphic design to me is. It's your it's your blueprint. it's your laya It's your plan to begin with.
00:07:39
Speaker
And now you're going to build the thing. You're going to put all the stuff that you're going to take all those ingredients that you had and just put in the text, the raw text and all those images. And you're going to create something cool, hopefully.
Inspiration and Constraints in Design
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, right.
00:07:54
Speaker
Hopefully. Hopefully. Hopefully. So so it's you see it as like sort of like creating the structure of the document in a way. That's graphic design. Yeah. That's the first part is the structure of it. Exactly. And then you're the rest of it is you're just you're what we call plugging in the text. You're just plugging it in and, you know, moving the pieces. And yeah, right, right, right, right.
00:08:15
Speaker
um that's um That's what I do for Peg, ah for most for pretty much all the books I've worked on them for. They do all the layout. i They hired me to do the trade dress where...
00:08:27
Speaker
I would do the graphic design work first and give them, i don't know, 10, 12 pages. yeah so that would be like six to eight spreads. And I would give them fonts, choices, sidebars. and Well, Tracy, we did that with Hancluster. Yep. Pretty much the same exact way. Exactly the same. gave you a bunch of... Pinebox Middle School. Pinebox also. We were coordinating with that, yeah. Right, right. And then here's the plan and the ingredients, you go for it.
00:09:00
Speaker
yeah And then whoever it is on their end, they do the layout. yeah And of course, there might be questions in between because you know I might not have a thought of, oh, of like maybe there's this long block of text they want to put somewhere and it doesn't look good in this sidebar. Maybe we have to change something. you know So it's like tweaking along the way sometimes.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think with Han Cluster, you had to give me a ah little video instruction on how to get the sidebars to work right, right? so Oh, yeah. Because you had gradients on them and you needed to reset the gradients if yeah if you stretched out the sidebar and stuff like that. So you gave me a little bit of a nonverbal video where I saw the pointer and you you showed me how to do it. I'm like, okay, awesome.
00:09:46
Speaker
Once I was empowered to do all that, I was able to take it over and I did rest myself. i did the rest myself right yeah So there was, I think I made a couple of changes. Like I i adjusted some of the backgrounds in the sidebars so that they weren't, so that I could read the text a little better.
00:10:04
Speaker
i changed a couple of the fonts, you know, but but it was your ingredients, it was your base that I wouldn't have been able to
Technical Aspects of Design
00:10:12
Speaker
do that. And then I did my own layout for the cards based on what you did.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yeah. And thankfully, and not all graphic designers will do this, but Carl did it for me. He gave me the Photoshop files of these elements with the the the the individual elements on layers within those Photoshop files so I could see how he constructed this stuff.
00:10:36
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I couldn't do it from scratch myself like Carl does, but I can mess with what he's got so that I can do a card layout and have the little window with the pink on it and do that do those kinds of things. it empowers me to do some of this stuff myself. And I super appreciate that you did that for me because I learned a lot. My pleasure.
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I like giving you and Peg and ah whoever else I work with, if if I know they've used InDesign or have the capability to to do that, I give them the PSD files, which called the Photoshop files, which is a layered file.
Designing with Constraints
00:11:15
Speaker
So it has all the actual layers of all the different artwork using. Usually when you send it to print, it's a flattened version of that and yeah it's no longer workable. It's rasterized. Exactly. It's rasterized. It's all flattened.
00:11:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Fascinating to see how you did it. You know, oh he's using this element from Adobe stock to create something completely that I would never have figured out how to do. You know, like, and, and these multiple layers of this and he's got um ah like layers that change the color of things in ways that I didn't know how to do before this. And it's super, super useful.
00:11:56
Speaker
Right. One of the things I admire, Carl, is like when, you know, at least when I've started a project with you, i can i can say this is a vibe, right? This is what I want to kind of go for.
00:12:07
Speaker
And somehow you pull out of the ether. The look and feel and texture and and everything that, again, communicates what the setting you know is supposed to feel like and what the brain or the book is supposed to feel like.
00:12:22
Speaker
So I look at a lot of other things. okay I just don't look at like for instance, we're talking about role-playing game books. I just don't strictly say, I'm just going to look at role-playing game books.
00:12:33
Speaker
yeah I look at movie posters. I look at album covers. Yeah. um I look at ah billboards. I look at advertising. My input level, I'm constantly looking at things and trying to get that feel.
00:12:49
Speaker
um ah For instance, like what we just worked with, Jen and Christian on the the the card project. campaign card, I mean, yeah. Right. You wanted an old kind of renaissance feel. And I knew...
00:13:03
Speaker
Okay, I've seen that before, but where can i find images of that or where can I get the the input for that? So Jen did a Pinterest board, which was amazing. I have my own Pinterest boards for my for some of my own projects, Sidewinder Recurl, for instance.
00:13:19
Speaker
So I'm constantly just looking at things and... and and my eye looks towards the graphic elements that I could probably, Oh, that would look cool on a corner or a border, or maybe I can tweak that.
00:13:33
Speaker
Um, uh, things like that. It's hard to really, It just kind of comes to me. i mean, it's, it's weird to say that, but it's just, I can, I look at things differently, I think, and I can, I can grab that.
00:13:52
Speaker
I guess it's because I've been doing this for like, yeah my my day job. I've almost been there for 30 years. It's 29 years. I
Adapting to Design Challenges
00:13:59
Speaker
imagine, doing that yeah, like you said, doing this for 30, you know, 29, 30 years, yeah there are patterns that you probably see, right? Like little pieces that you're like, oh, that I've done a corner of a border before. That would be an interesting way to have done that. Or, you know, you draw from that experiences. but you're So you're like constantly scanning.
00:14:18
Speaker
you're just Yeah, I'm constantly looking at things and checking things out and kind of, ah dissecting them and cutting them up. Like some of the stuff from Hong Cluster, I think was, i I forget where some of the borders and stuff I i got it from.
00:14:31
Speaker
It was like some metal computer parts or something like that. it was like, it was, it was absolutely not, not a border. yeah um this This is beyond other graphical presentation that this is like, you you'll look at physical items even. Right. Wow.
00:14:49
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. I'm just looking at constantly looking at things and seeing how I can change them and yeah use them to my own advantage. I do the same thing with my, um not to get off track with the graphic design stuff, but my when I run games and I make the props and things like that and all the different terrain pieces. don't want to hear about this. I don't want to hear about this.
00:15:08
Speaker
But that's how my mind works. I'll see yeah i'll see something. I'm like, oh, I could use that in a game. right That'd be cool if that piece of garbage or whatever it is, if I slap some paint on it and shine it up some. and you know Now it's a device that the mad scientist has in the game. Right.
00:15:24
Speaker
Right. But I do this, I do my art the same way but I remember even the Sin City one that you did. oh yeah, yeah. With the black and white with red yeah accent colors. And I was like, man, he saw that and he just did it. And it was. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Yeah. Yeah. mustered My attempts at it are amateur.
00:15:42
Speaker
But. um That's pretty cool though. For practical purposes. Yeah, yeah. um When should ah designer start considering what the look of your product should be?
00:15:54
Speaker
and And do they need to know the size of the book ah com or the size of the – like the format that they're going to be in before they approach a graphic designer or like what do you Right.
00:16:08
Speaker
Okay. So the format, yeah. um You don't really need to know the format specifically of the book um unless it's unless you're trying to go for a certain thing, like you've maybe you've seen a book that's smaller and you're like, oh, that'd be cool. Instead of two columns, I can just make one cool column.
00:16:29
Speaker
You know, and that's that's different because you saw something. But in general, no, you don't need to really know the need to know the size of the book. You can just from there. you can just go from there um but And by size, I mean like whether it's 8.5 by 11 or it's a graphic novel trade size or whatever. 6 by 9.
Incorporating Feedback in Design
00:16:47
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. Like for instance, our um our Savage Sidewinder that we just put out. Originally, we wanted a digest size. We wanted like a suede size, maybe 6 by 9, maybe a little bit bigger than that.
00:17:01
Speaker
But then we have these um we have these things in there called Renown Edges, and it's kind of like the class edges in Pathfinder. you you You want to play the gunslinger. Okay, you get the Renown Edge, and it has an edge tree, but we wanted a cool spread like what we what I worked on with Pathfinder, because I did work on a little bit of that.
00:17:21
Speaker
um ah Shane's idea was that he goes, I want you to open up the book and and it would be cool to see the barbarian. And you have the picture of the barbarian, says the barbarian, has all the information.
00:17:33
Speaker
Boom, done. Next one is bar, you know whatever. this sprint yeah Yeah. So we did the same. We had the same idea with all these cool renowned edges. want to play the gunslinger. I play the bounty hunter. Boom. Each one them's there in a spread.
00:17:46
Speaker
But we were having a hard time trying to fit all that information in a 6x9 because we we we had a lot of stuff going on. And so
Considerations for Starting Graphic Design
00:17:55
Speaker
we expanded it 8.5x11.
00:17:57
Speaker
um But for the look of it and stuff like that, it's not needed. i Unless you're going for, like I said, a specific thing, like ah a Mork Borg. Have you seen those books?
00:18:08
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yes yeah. yeah They've got a certain book to them. specifically Bespoke page. Every page is like bespoke. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So... Yeah, because I was like, I was fretting over that choice when I was talking to him. Oh, okay. Because I was like, you know, because you were asking me what size.
00:18:28
Speaker
Right, right, right. Is it going to be 8.5 by 11 or you going to go the graphic novel size? And I was like, with Boof, I was like, well, I kind of want to mimic what Pinnacle does, but then I'm committing myself to this particular size, which Drive-Thru RPG can't do.
00:18:41
Speaker
Right, yes, yes. And I'm going to have to get it done by a printer or... I'm going to change my mind later and have to have Carl come back and fix my graphic design for him. So I was a little bit Freddy over it, but I finally waffled back and forth enough without telling you and eventually settled on, no, I'm committing. growing the graphic novel size. I did the right thing from the beginning, it turns out.
00:19:09
Speaker
yeah And I was like... you know, info be damned. Like I was, it was going to be that size no matter, right no matter what requirements those edges would, would come up. Right. I mean, yeah, at some point too, though, those constraints can help with creativity in a lot of ways. yeah So, yes, you know,
00:19:29
Speaker
And I'm very good at that. I'm very good at working at within constraints. yeah As a lighting designer for theater, like you've got only so many instruments at your disposal. rate I never did well was it whether with a larger budget with this pie in the sky thing. yeah
Working Efficiently Within Constraints
00:19:47
Speaker
I was like, no, but just give me, just give me tell me what I've got. And I'll work with that.
00:19:53
Speaker
And I'll make you a good design. But if you tell me I can buy anything, Right, right. I'm in big trouble. So I mentioned that because, you know, I know just like you, Tracy, a lot of people will, they'll, they'll hem and haw or they'll, you know, spend a lot of time spinning their wheels trying to figure out what's the right layout.
00:20:09
Speaker
Yeah. But ultimately it's going to work out, right? Somehow you'll figure it out, whatever it is you're trying to lay out. It is, it does become magical. in the eye. Because now I look back at Honkloster all the hundreds of changes to layout that I made throughout that process. And now I look at it and I go, wow, that's super clever.
00:20:31
Speaker
Like, how did I get that done? How did I manage to get this concept like this on the page? And I do that with other books too. Like, how do they plan that?
00:20:45
Speaker
It turns out you didn't really plan. It turns out it just happened. You're figuring it out. Yeah. It's just happening while you're doing it. Yeah. It turns out like enough iterations and this is what you get.
00:20:57
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And it's kind of cool because you sit back and you're looking like, huh, that was kind of cool. Yeah. And I did that.
Writing and Designing Simultaneously
00:21:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, we we started implementing, Chris and I, my partner with Doghouse, usually back in the, before we worked on Savage Pathfinder, because Chris and I helped a little bit on Savage Pathfinder. yeah And before we did that, it was always, i was doing the graphic design, I was doing the layout. yeah he didn't He didn't know anything about InDesign or anything like that. He would write most of the stuff.
00:21:25
Speaker
And I'd hand it off to him. He'd go through the PDF, do edits. I'd go back and do the layout. Now we've implemented the pinnacle way where he has InDesign.
00:21:36
Speaker
i do the initial trade dress graphic design. i do ah the initial layout. And then he'll take it over from there and start making tweaks and changes within the layout itself. Yeah. so we're not passing word documents back and forth and wondering if it's going to fit.
00:21:56
Speaker
He's writing to the layout, which, which is amazing. Which we've talked about previously. It's amazing because awesome now I know like, okay, I'm trying, it's got to fit on this spread.
00:22:10
Speaker
It's got to, I'm going to cut two sentences somewhere. I think that's an interesting detail that i don't know. i don't know that we've brought up before, Tracy, but um the fact that the actual layout it.
00:22:22
Speaker
So when we talk about Peg and you writing in layout, it's really not just writing in layout. It's actually doing layout. while writing. yeah correct Is that correct? Yeah. yeah So that's the distinction I think that a lot of people might not.
00:22:37
Speaker
Yeah. That's for people who are writing it, right? Like, yeah yeah it was like Daryl, he writes to layout. I write to layout. But in some cases, like in Holler, when I'm doing, we're doing a you know, new book for Holler,
00:22:49
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm going to be writing some, but most of the writing has been done by Tim. Right. So I'm going to be not only laying it out based on what Tim wrote, but I'm also going to be writing to lay out myself. And so there's, there's going to be, I think, you know, Tim trusts me to do this partly, you know, I, I'm a partner, not just in layout, but in writing as well. yeah But if you're just laying it out,
00:23:16
Speaker
then it becomes a collaboration, excuse me, with the artist or with the original writer to see how much you can change. Yeah, right. and
Starting a Design Project - Communication and Expectations
00:23:25
Speaker
Or to say, we're changing this no matter whether you like or not. Ultimately, we've got to get a product out and this is how it has to be. But right it's it's interesting how that push and pull happens and it depends on what your relationship is.
00:23:40
Speaker
Right. um So working with you, Carl, what is it that you need from a designer to get started on their graphic design for their book?
00:23:53
Speaker
That's a good question. um What do i need from the design? I would say basically a really good conversation on what this is. Like, what are you looking for?
00:24:06
Speaker
Also work expectations. Like what, what, you know, uh, what's your expectations for me, you know? And, uh, uh, but basically if we're talking about just the look of the book, just, um, a really good conversation on okay. Um,
00:24:26
Speaker
um do you Do you have ideas of your own? Tell me at this point right now at the beginning, show me a book. Tell me something. Hey, I really like the layout of this thing. I was thinking maybe we could do something like this. Or I like the fonts on this thing.
00:24:41
Speaker
You know, communicate with your graphic designer. And I especially like that. um Again, back to... Jen and Christian there with their Renaissance um project we're working on with the cards.
00:24:57
Speaker
ah She was spot on. She was like, Hey, here's a Pinterest board. This is, and they both, we had a meeting and they told me exactly what they wanted. They were like, ah we were looking for this type of feel, you know, from this, you know, old style feel. And we started trading ideas back and forth.
00:25:14
Speaker
So just, ah you know, communication is key. Tell them what you want up front and don't surprise them later and say, oh, I meant, you know, maybe this or that. Oh, okay. and And I think, I think giving examples like the Pinterest board and stuff is is crucial. Like have an idea ahead of time because then you're just, you're just making that right time to ramping in that much shorter when you do that.
00:25:39
Speaker
Even day job, been there 29 years, like said earlier. twenty nine years like i said earlier we look at things all the time. We're constantly looking at magazines. Now it's internet ads on how people do things, you know, web banners and things like that.
00:25:57
Speaker
Other websites, just just keeping an eye out to see what's out there, what's the coolest thing, and maybe you can implement it in what you do.
Cost Considerations in Design Projects
00:26:07
Speaker
And the same with you if you're telling your graphic designer,
00:26:11
Speaker
you know, show them, you know, bring them to a website, you know, say, you know, get a bunch of JPEGs together, you know screenshots or whatever, you know, just, uh, yeah.
00:26:22
Speaker
Communication is key. Really. Yeah. You know, I don't think I showed you anything. I think I told you about it. No, but your descriptions was great. I was trying to be very descriptive and and also like, I, I, I speak in emotive terms. yeah Yeah. So I was like looking for a clean,
00:26:40
Speaker
High-tech sci-fi look. No, but I asked some questions, and think we got there. yeah. That's a great point, Carl. guess that's what... that's a great point corl like yeah i guess that's what um you know basically what should they expect from you?
00:26:59
Speaker
right and so like you You were just saying asking questions, right or things like that. like what What should they anticipate when they're like, okay, I'm going to reach Karl Kiesler. We're going to have a phone call or a Teams call or Google Meet call, whatever, to talk about this. what What should they expect to get from you in that moment?
00:27:17
Speaker
um Well, pretty much the same thing. I mean, we're just going to talk about what you what you like, what you don't like, what is the setting, you know, what is...
00:27:29
Speaker
ah We're going to talk about size because that's important too at the beginning, you know, because so we're not redoing artwork, you know, like like what Tracy was just saying.
Design Meetings and Storytelling
00:27:40
Speaker
um Page count was part that too. Page count's another thing, yeah, because because that could bring up the price, you know, of if if you're hiring a graphic designer, usually they do it by – It depends.
00:27:55
Speaker
Usually it's by page count. Sometimes they'll do a like I do different things. i'll I'll charge for like a trade dress. Okay. The trade dress is this. And now for me to actually do the layout, I charge it by page because it's just, it's just more easier that way. And X amount of pages is this, you know?
00:28:13
Speaker
And that could include anything from crazy um you know charts and graphs that are tables, which are things. don't know what you're talking about. That could take forever.
00:28:27
Speaker
tables Yeah, tables are the the worst, right? And obviously you're going to spend more time on that, but it kind of outweighs if you have other pages that it's just layout text that you just have to apply style sheets to. and right you know But it kind of all comes out in the wash at the end.
00:28:44
Speaker
you know But yeah, if you're you're in a meeting with me or something like that, we're gonna we're going to talk about the look of it, the style, the size, you know, just just a whole gambit of things about the book.
00:28:58
Speaker
that Anything you can tell me, anything would be helpful. Yeah. The the more the better, right? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And this is one of my points is I think good graphic design um can convey your setting and make it interesting to people in just as powerful a way as the art that you put in the book can.
00:29:22
Speaker
yeah And because it's it's done in a way that's consistent and and ah like not to say repetitive throughout the book, but it's like that's the design.
00:29:36
Speaker
If it's really well done and compelling and and and just, I don't know, like somehow doesn't break the bank, it can do more to help you sell the book than the art inside can.
00:29:50
Speaker
ah yeah To me, I like to look at it as ah like a band. you know There's the writer, there's a graphic designer, and there's maybe an illustrator. you know Those three elements together can really convey what you're trying to say with the book. you know so i think To me, graphic design is just as important as any of those other two.
00:30:10
Speaker
Yeah, I would say so too. If you take one of those elements away, i mean, it might be an okay book, you know? Yeah. but you know I think it's equal partner at least. Yeah, at least. yeah Because um i I think I have great art, but if I didn't have that graphic design, it would be it would not be what it is. i mean, you know, it just wouldn't. and And I think, you know, cover art is also up there. yep But the graphic design is right up there, too. yeah if you can it can It can make or break you, and it doesn't have to cost you a huge amount of money to do that, like the whole of the art of the book does.
00:30:51
Speaker
Exactly. but you know Good example. of Carl, you did a great job with with Savage Airborne, which has zero art in it. Yes. but it yeah And my only desire really was for it to resemble something close to the original three or five campaign setting, not copying it, but evoking that same sort of texture and feel.
00:31:10
Speaker
And you nailed it. And looking through that book, I'm like, yeah, this this feels like it's an Everon book. Right. Granted, have the advantage that people who know Eberron already know about the themes and the visuals and so on. But, you know, but to Tracy's point, yeah, that that layout, that graphic design and that layout really and just brought it out.
00:31:31
Speaker
Thanks. yeah Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And advertising, which I look at this as a way of advertising you know, you only have a few seconds to grab someone's attention. Yeah. Really.
00:31:43
Speaker
Especially in today's time. Um, not that I don't think a lot of people say, Oh, people's, they don't like to look at things too much. I just don't think they have time to look at things because there's so much to look at. Yeah.
00:31:57
Speaker
I think there's a priority issue of what to look at. There's so much. It's not that we can't have, you can't hold my, my, my time and and to look at this thing. There's just so much. Yeah. I got other things that are pulling my attention as well.
00:32:11
Speaker
Right. Exactly. So I think a book is just as important that you've got to have some sort of cool look to it that tells you exactly what you're, yeah what you are looking at in the game store on drive through RPG, like what's going to grab you within those three or four seconds of,
00:32:28
Speaker
Yeah, you're scrolling through how you're walking by the bookshelf or right whatever might be. and And yeah, like you said, looking at that cover, even just the spine. yeah You know, if if it can just get your attention just for a few seconds to compel you to look at it a little bit more.
Balancing Aesthetic Appeal and Usability
00:32:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's kind of crucial.
00:32:46
Speaker
I think the other aspect is that it keeps you there. Yes. Oh, yeah. That it's easy to so to look at, yeah did that it complements what you're trying to read and and what you're trying to absorb from the setting.
00:33:02
Speaker
So you don't, you're not like turned off by it You're like initially like, oh, this is super interesting. This is a very interesting, like, you know, there's a couple books that I've got on the shelf that are just like, this is really cool.
00:33:14
Speaker
yeah But over the long term, it it's hard for me. It's hard for me to read. It's hard for me to look at. Right. And I think that's an aspect of it too. there's a Yeah, there's a usability component.
00:33:27
Speaker
of it, even like you said, just the legibility of it. Right. Is this, can I, can I even read this text for long or is the background on the page way too busy with zero contrast, you know? And, and yeah I've seen books where I'm like, I was excited for the content and I open it up and I go to read it and I'm like, I can't do this.
00:33:44
Speaker
It's just too difficult to read. The same here. Yeah. yeah um I think it works both ways. And I think that's why i love Honkloster so much. Just to say it again, because I think it's beautiful and I think it's easy.
00:33:58
Speaker
yeah It's easy to keep you there. yeah If you've got good writing and you've got good art and you've got... You know, it you turn the page and you can still go and it's still, it's it's ah it's just relaxing almost.
00:34:12
Speaker
Well, like you said, if it feels clean, right? Yeah. That's the feeling that you wanted and that's what you got.
Vision and Collaboration with Designers
00:34:17
Speaker
That's what I got. Yeah. That's right. Is there anything you wish a publisher would come to you with or that you wish they would come to come to you with more often that that might help other designers and publishers? Yeah.
00:34:32
Speaker
in In what way? Like if they're coming to me with a job or something like that? Yeah, yeah. Like if, you know, being equipped or prepared with a thing that you that helps you I wish they had more, some of them, not all of them.
00:34:46
Speaker
Like, Tracy, you were great to work with because you you you're a wordsmith, and the stuff you were telling me was just like, I got exactly what you wanted with Han Klaas.
00:34:58
Speaker
The same with you, Christian, with Eberron. We discussed it, and I just wish some clients would be – ah a little bit more descriptive in what they want.
00:35:12
Speaker
Because it's hard to go like, yeah, can you give me a layout for this? And that's it? It's sci-fi. It's a sci-fi setting for Savage Gold. Give me a layout. Exactly. Exactly. Just a little bit more description. Just help me out just a bit.
00:35:29
Speaker
Is it dark dystopian? Is it bright and hopeful? Exactly. I'm not playing 20 questions here and trying to you know trying to get this information from you. i'm um We're working together on this now. Yeah.
00:35:42
Speaker
um Help me to help you. Even if it's just movie references. Exactly. You know, like I want us to feel like Rogue One. Right. That kind of thing.
00:35:52
Speaker
And I think this is that's interesting because I think it it recalls a lot of the stuff that Christian have and I have said on the on the podcast, which is. If you don't know what your setting is, if you don't know what you're going to be doing in the setting, if you don't know what what you're trying to convey in the setting, you're not goingnna be able to express that to a graphic designer either. That's a good point. Exactly. So at this point, it's like maybe you're not ready for a graphic designer yet.
00:36:18
Speaker
Yeah. And that's okay. It just means you've got a little bit more work to do to be able to answer some of these questions and figure out what it is that it's supposed to look like. That's part of the challenge of being a designer is not just, okay, I'm going to write this thing.
00:36:34
Speaker
It's you have to start thinking in terms of what does it look like yeah to convey to an artist or a graphic designer, like what do people who inhabit my world look like? what does the What is the field setting I'm trying to, and how does that translate into visual design?
00:36:48
Speaker
ah visual way. right I think if you don't at least have a little bit of that, you're probably not ready. but right that's That's what I'm thinking. I don't know if, Carl, if you agree with that. No, I totally agree with you. I mean, if you if you can't even put it down in a sentence or elevator pitch, so to speak, then I think you need to reevaluate that and and figure it out because granted you might be looking for a graphic designer to help you but you've got ah it's just coming from you if if this is your baby and you can't describe it I don't know how else I can i mean I might I might be able to yeah but
00:37:29
Speaker
I mean, at that point, I'm guessing. Yeah. Yeah. I think because we talked a little bit about this when we talked about art where. Yeah. Yeah. Like knowing even before you start writing, there's there's got to be a ah visual that you have in your head of what this looks like and feels like.
00:37:46
Speaker
And so even if it's just clinging on to that, you know, what am i Yeah, sorry. good No, i was gonna say one of my best examples of a client telling me what they want is when I worked on Lost Colony.
Collaboration with Artists
00:37:58
Speaker
ah Shane told me it was. He goes, you know what Lost Colony is? Because I knew what it was. I knew what it was. It was basically deadlines in space kind of kind of deal. But he said, if I remember right, he says, it's kind of like Event Horizon and Firefly.
00:38:16
Speaker
I'm like. Oh, okay. It's horrible. It's horrific. Shane loves Event Horizon. Oh my gosh, but I got it. And they said, you know, everything's old and busted up and they have to use things to...
00:38:32
Speaker
you know, kind of like in Firefly and nothing's new in that. It's all salvaging for parts to make the engineer. all worn and used. Yeah. Yeah. But then he said in Event Horizon, I'm like, okay. So it's kind of dark.
00:38:44
Speaker
Okay. All right. But that that hit the nail on the head for me. I it was just like, okay, I got this. Yeah. so yeah And i think i hit I think I did that layout like without any, if I remember right, I did that look like right the bat and that was like one of the ones that was just like bam it hit right on the yeah so have you ever worked closely with with the artist for a product in terms of like making the art and the and the tray dress feel yes coherent Yes, actually, um the latest one we did was the Savage Sidewinder. Sidewinder recoil for Savage Worlds is the complete name. We call it Savage Sidewinder.
00:39:21
Speaker
It's basically Western game. it's It's not Deadlands. Deadlands does the Weird West. This is just straight up historical type Western. yeah Action movie type Western with Savage Worlds.
00:39:33
Speaker
Right. So we have an artist that we've used before and... um I knew that he's very good at black and white, just like pen pen and ink artwork.
00:39:44
Speaker
And so we talked to him a little bit and he wasn't going to color any of them. And we decided to do shades of like golds and browns in the book. So if you open it up, I took his art and certain figures are, and ah are everybody's in black and white because, you know, he draws in pen and ink.
00:40:04
Speaker
But then certain figures I highlighted with a white background. So I knew I was going to do that with that kind of like highlight the figures amongst the, you know, the the old parchment background.
00:40:15
Speaker
So they kind of pop and stuff like that. So we worked with him on that. um yeah Just trying to get like a central image on some of these illustrations that we had that would really stand out and pop.
00:40:29
Speaker
yeah So, yeah, that one we we. we worked really closely with Manuel. So nice. Yeah. Very nice. It's fun to do that too. If you, if you have the time and availability and, and it's really fun to work with the artists if you can, yeah you know, especially if they're, if they're doing all or the majority of the art for the book, they're, right they're, they're contributing to that feel, right. You know, right on their end. Yeah. Like Holler was amazing. What they would what do you guys think Holler? Francesco, yeah. is That, to me, that art was, yeah it just matches the feel.
00:41:04
Speaker
And like, oh man, that whole thing. It's just, it's really great. Yeah, I thought so. I thought it was very cohesive and it all fit together super well. We're very proud of Holler, Tim and I. And we're working on the second one and we're very excited. Oh,
Conclusion and Community Engagement
00:41:21
Speaker
nice. um Okay, well, is there anything else?
00:41:28
Speaker
um No, I don't think so. um I mean, we went over a lot of stuff. so We did. um No, I don't think so. So that's everything you need to know, folks. Yeah, that's it. If you know all that, then you're good to go. That's all there to mastering working with a graphic designer layout artist. Yeah.
00:41:48
Speaker
Well, thank you, Carl, for coming on. Again, we're huge admirers of yours. yeah i love your, not only ah great graphic designer, a great GM, a really nice person. If you ever get a chance to play in Carl's games, which always fill up almost immediately, ah jump on it because they're really great.
00:42:08
Speaker
Yeah. I think Carl should just start doing tours. not Sure. Yeah. Budokan. That's right. 2026. Nice.
00:42:19
Speaker
Well, thanks again, Carl. We really appreciate you being here. And yeah, you're awesome. We love you. i appreciate you. We love working with you. We love hanging out with you. so yeah. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Awesome.
00:42:31
Speaker
Well, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server.
00:42:45
Speaker
Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few along the way.