Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Problem #33: Creating Archetypes
134 Plays26 days ago
This week, Darrell Hayhurst joins Kristian and Tracy once again, this time to talk about creating archetypes for your setting. Who are the characters who inhabit and accomplish things in your setting? How do they do it? And why? Archetypes can jumpstart a player's immersion into your world, and doing it well takes a number of sometimes conflicting factors into account.
Join our discord!: https://discord.gg/Bc9dvuzZYJ
The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm k Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this existential
Exploring Archetypes: Problem 33
00:00:18
Speaker
abstraction. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 33, creating archetypes.
00:00:22
Speaker
creating architecture
00:00:43
Speaker
And we have, again, the perfect person to talk about this with
Guest Appearance by Daryl Hayhurst
00:00:48
Speaker
us. We have Daryl Hayhurst again. Come back. we We loved having you and we always love having you and we love that you're here now.
00:00:57
Speaker
so Welcome back, Daryl. I apologize in advance to everyone sick of me.
00:01:04
Speaker
Everybody drink.
Deep Dive into Character Abilities
00:01:07
Speaker
So we are kind of extending the conversation that we had last time. ah We started talking about characters and you know like abilities and things like that. And we're going to kind of deep dive into that with this episode where we're going to talk about creating archetypes.
00:01:26
Speaker
um So where where do we want to start with this? like we Well, let me let me ask you this, Christian. Yes. what is Because not all games do this,
00:01:36
Speaker
right ta so what what to you is an archetype ah It is an expression of of examples of the type of adventurers you would see in the setting.
00:01:50
Speaker
Okay. And so it is it's like, it's the Han Solos, the Luke Skywalkers, the Ben Kenobis, whatever, right? It's those characters that are going to be um iconic in terms of the type of story that can be told here.
00:02:07
Speaker
That's not to say that there couldn't be other character types, but these are the sort of, these are probably the ideas that the creator had in terms of what they wanted to be able to be in playing this setting and what they think others might want to be able
Archetypes in Traditional RPGs
00:02:24
Speaker
to be. Exactly. And or what most people that are going to play are going to expect to be doing.
00:02:30
Speaker
Right. Yes. Yes. That's the other good example of that. And I think one of the reasons why Dungeons and Dragons was such fertile ground at the beginning, right? Because the classes are the archetypes. Yes. Like fighter, wizard, thief,
00:02:46
Speaker
mean, you're good, right? Like, aha, I know what I'm going to do. going to fight. I'm going to cast spells. I'm going to open a chest. Yeah. Right. That's it. Yeah. And when do you get into settings that aren't just traditional fantasy dungeon crawling settings, you want to make sure that that expression is conveyed in a way that's approachable.
00:03:06
Speaker
Right. Right. Well, and even the traditional fantasy ones that only work because we've all had that training. thanks to Right. We're conditioned. Right. but Like Redbox said it for us. So like, okay, we're good.
00:03:20
Speaker
We covered that ground. Now, I think there's a distinction though, to your point that those are classes, right? In the D&D sense. Whereas in some systems like Savage Worlds or Fate, there are not classes.
00:03:31
Speaker
These are kind of in a way like a pre-gen really. it it It is, but I think like that class is carrying a lot of that same load. Yeah. Yes. Setting an expectation for you.
00:03:42
Speaker
This is what I am. This is who I am. This is what I'm doing. Right.
Archetypes in Classless Systems
00:03:47
Speaker
Right. Exactly. With more point build systems. Yeah. like Like with a class-based system, like it's, it's pretty much going to be locked to that. Right. Yes. But with a point build system that gets really, really open because you can do anything.
00:04:02
Speaker
Yes. You get that problem of, well, if I can do anything, then what am I actually doing? Yeah. And that's where having those goalposts suddenly starts to really matter. Like, ah The archetypes help you help you help explain to the player what what those classes are in this particular setting.
00:04:19
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, I think. well And and like, you know, we do it in Savage Worlds all the time. um We create archetypes for our settings.
00:04:31
Speaker
And partly it's to be able to have a quick start for the for the players to just pick up a character and go and in with a character that they know is going to be At least somewhat useful in what they're going to be doing, depending on what the GM's decided to do with the particular adventure.
00:04:48
Speaker
But um that's the challenge of the designer is to create a suite of characters that work in the setting. based on what whatever the iconic adventure for that setting is, whatever the whatever you're going to be generally doing, and to fill another bunch of niches in terms of, like, they need to have variety, and they need to, you know, they they have to be functional, and they have to express different
Creating Diverse Archetypes
00:05:18
Speaker
aspects of the setting. Like, that's part of that's part of creating archetypes, I think. I mean, that's that's my philosophy. No, i I completely agree with that, yeah. We just have...
00:05:27
Speaker
more friends now than we had in the seventies. So back then three were enough. Now, yeah, I know more than three people. Now we've got to have six. It's an exercise in diversity. Yeah. Like, I mean, at this point I would say you need at least six, right? just just to get started with.
00:05:47
Speaker
And, um if you can, if you can like creating more than that gets a little trickier, right? Because, Once you've set up a setting and you've got niches or classes, as we put, as we say, like, you know, there's there's there's maybe six classes, right?
00:06:05
Speaker
And coming up with others, now you're starting to deep dive into that kind of like multi-classing kind of thing and and the yeah the, like, or niching in ways that other archetypes don't, you know?
00:06:17
Speaker
Or different builds within that same set of guidelines. Yeah, yeah. yeah Yep, yep. This is the same kind of character, but it's just a different ah flavor of it.
00:06:27
Speaker
Well, yeah, like like taking, for example, like arcane backgrounds. You might have three or four different arcane backgrounds. They're all casting powers, but they're just different flavors and and methods of casting those powers.
00:06:40
Speaker
Or like superpowers. Yeah. or like you know superpowers right you have all sorts of different types of powers available so each you know each one focused on a particular you know bucket of powers or collection of powers or a particular theme is most yeah for superpowers anyway right like i'm a fire dude i'm gonna create a suite of powers around fire you know And some of those powers are going to mimic some of the other people's powers, it's going be different because that's going to be different because it's fire.
00:07:09
Speaker
yeah I think like six is one of those safe numbers to go for because yeah like in practical terms, most groups are between four and six players.
00:07:20
Speaker
Yeah. So it's like, okay, if you're not doing at least six, then on some groups, like someone can't play. Yeah. And radio so like, okay, cool. And then anything after that is gravy.
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, I started with six and and with Han Cluster and then i I ramped it up to nine because there was was yeah space for it. Like there was niches that were needed to be filled and um and I wanted more, you know, wanted more variety, more choice, you know. yeah Because, and part of this is what we touched I touched on a little bit, is that you want them to be varied. You want them not only to be varied in what their skills are,
00:08:01
Speaker
But in the sense of who they are, right? So, I mean it doesn't necessarily mean they have to have backstories, although I like a little bit of backstory, just a little bit of something to grab onto, even with archetypes.
00:08:14
Speaker
But um just the feel of like, okay, this art is appealing to me. I want to play that character. I don't even care what they do. I want to play that character. I identify with that person.
00:08:26
Speaker
And so having a variety of different types that appeal to different player types, and that could be everything from the sarcastic Daryl character who taunts and does all that kind of stuff to the To the um face character like Cicada and me and ah who wants to, who wants to talk to everybody and there's a pacifist, right?
00:08:48
Speaker
Like that appeals to different people. I want to talk to everyone. I'm just a passive aggressivist. Sure.
00:08:56
Speaker
But if there's room for it in the setting, having that, that variety, I think it's part of the importance of creating those archetypes, you know?
Archetypes and Setting Design
00:09:05
Speaker
Yeah. And besides just what they do, besides I'm a bard or I'm a, I'm a wizard.
00:09:10
Speaker
Well, and there's the the dual purpose, right? Like one, on when you're designing it, do these work. So you get to you know walk through that for yourself and be like, aha, yes, these work, these function, like this is okay.
00:09:24
Speaker
And then two, it's it's advertisement, not necessarily in the traditional sense, but within the people playing the game. that a hot, like you don't have to read a whole book to see these options.
00:09:38
Speaker
We were like, oh, that looks cool. I don't know what it means, but it looks cool. I would like to know more. My desire to know more intensifies. Give me that. Would you like to learn more?
00:09:49
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Because half the time, like when you're just looking at the book, it' like, I'm not going to read 30 pages of background info. No. the what When I pick up a new book in the Switch, what's interesting is Savage Worlds now does this as the the separate archetype cards.
00:10:07
Speaker
yeah But in the older settings, they would have like two pages that would list like the careers. That were applicable. Like, oh, if you're in 50 fathoms, you could be a water mage or you could be a wind mage or you could be a pirate or you could be, you know, yeah like like, ah, this tells me.
00:10:24
Speaker
the things that I'm looking for. And then there's modifiers within that, like, Oh, a Skerillion pirate pirate is different from a pirate. i Yeah. Got it. A Marine is, you know, completely different.
00:10:36
Speaker
but da but But like that, it gives you that, aha, I kind of know what I'm doing. You look at strips slipstream. It's like, these are the, you know, there are two sentences each. Right. But that's all you need to give you an idea of what is possible here? What is expected here? What's expected? And yeah it's in the Hancluster book. it's in it's i still I think it's still in most Savage books. Maybe not now. Most of them do it, yeah. But I know that i know we did it with Pinebox. We had just a bunch of character types yeah and and just a couple sentences.
00:11:09
Speaker
Like, yeah here's here's the aristocrat. Here's what you're going to do in the setting as the aristocrat. yeah yeah Here's the next diver. Here's what you do. Here's the courtesan. Here's what you do. Here's the ex-military. And yeah why you're ex-military and here's what you do.
00:11:22
Speaker
Right. Just little like ah teasers that help the help the players say, grab onto something and say, oh, I want to play that. And I know what I'm going to be doing. Yeah, exactly. You can do your own thing, but here's a place to start. Yep. Here's a place to start. Now we have an idea of what this setting is because of the player or the characters we know inhabit it.
00:11:42
Speaker
And now I can create my own character based on that. Yeah. So part of what I do, and we did it, well, at least I did it with Honkluster, and i think I think it works, is I created the archetypes early on.
00:11:58
Speaker
I did not create the archetypes after the setting was made. I created the archetypes way early because part of it is like that give and take, that push and pull. The archetypes influence the setting yeah because I want to have these kinds of characters in my setting. Yes, exactly. And therefore, the setting is going to be influenced by them. And the vice versa, obviously, the setting is going to influence what the archetypes are.
00:12:23
Speaker
So I'm a big fan of doing that and letting that, like, you're going to get it wrong the first time. You're going to iterate on your archetypes as you as you finalize your setting. But I think working on them in tandem is very valuable, I think.
00:12:37
Speaker
I mean, that's just me. I think you're absolutely right. um Because we did the same thing. we were We started with what, the whole setting is based on what do we what do we want to be able to play, right? And so if you have that, if you and then you have your character the the archetypes,
00:12:52
Speaker
ah Then from there you can extrapolate, okay, well, what what are the stories we're going to tell with these characters? you know What are they going to experience? What do we want them to experience? What are going to be their challenges? What are going to be their opportunities? you know And I think that's, yeah, I think absolutely it's good to start with with archetypes. Even if it's just an idea in the back of your mind. Yeah.
00:13:13
Speaker
Just start with that. What do we want? What do I want to be good at? Could be those two sentences, right? Yeah. And especially because sometimes that's going to tell you, I need these rules.
00:13:24
Speaker
there like I think an inventor is a very important part of space 1889. Yeah. Uh-oh, I In a way that's fun. Yeah, exactly. yeah Yeah. like and or you know Yeah. it's it's i think that I think that informs the setting. Setting informs the characters. I think it's i think it's valuable. Plus, the ah the other sort of unsaid thing is...
00:13:49
Speaker
It inserts your players from the very beginning. yeah Whereas if you're just creating a setting first and then trying to form a bunch of characters that fit within it afterwards, sometimes you can close avenues of adventure off without even realizing And if you have characters that are going to inhabit it from the very beginning...
00:14:10
Speaker
you can think in terms of what are those characters going to be doing in this setting that I'm creating. Right. How are they breaking my world? Yes. How are they going to oh yeah screw everything Because if someone else is breaking it, then I don't know if this works.
00:14:24
Speaker
yeah um So,
Integrating Archetypes into the Game World
00:14:29
Speaker
yeah. Yeah. I think um ah another aspect of archetypes I think is important is giving them a reason to work together.
00:14:39
Speaker
Like not necessarily overtly stated, but like you're making them integrate into a world. And it's easy, apparently.
00:14:50
Speaker
i mean, a lot of people do this is they'll create archetypes that don't want to work with each other. Right. that That are made to be lone wolves or made to be out there on their own. And that's fine to a certain degree.
00:15:03
Speaker
But I think you need to think about how they work together. Well, and it's more than just the lone wolf factor, right? Because a lot of settings, because they've got an approach where there's different factions and you want to be able to explore each faction yes on its own. like Like every time we've ever tried to play ElfQuest, right?
00:15:22
Speaker
We're going to get three elves from different tribes that all want to kill each other. and then a human and a troll stroll up like, all right, where's the party at? And you're like, okay, i don't know how this is going to work, right? Yeah, yeah. It can work, but you've got to do that that that work. Right. And I thought that was one of the interesting hard things with the ah Warhammer Wrath and Glory, but because like you can play humans or orcs or, you know, all this stuff that they want to kill each other, like in a Canon version of the game, yeah like this would be a very short session.
00:15:57
Speaker
Like you would be executed for heresy. for even giving this guy the time of day, the game itself has to build a reason and be like, we are facing a threat large enough yeah that we're not going to get executed for cooperating. It's the Gimli Legolas dilemma.
00:16:15
Speaker
Yeah, it exactly. It is. or or you know And 50 Fathoms does it by making the world drown now suddenly... You know, Kahana and who who are their arch rivals?
00:16:27
Speaker
Oh, yeah, the Doreen have to work together in some way, right? Or in Rifts, like um they did the, what it, Tomorrow Legion? Is that right? Tomorrow Legion is the core, yeah, group. Yeah, so they made that for Savage Rifts so that they had some sort of framework to get all these disparate types of characters together and working together.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah. It can be elegant. It can be, well, let's let's call it, this can be more elegant or can be less elegant. It really doesn't matter which. It's it's it's it's really up to you.
00:17:00
Speaker
but But, you know. but But building these six characters that need to work together, that poses that challenge to you as a designer right up front. Yes. Says, okay, well, these are the six that are going to be in this game together.
00:17:15
Speaker
If three of them want to murder the other three, uh-oh. yeah We need a framework in place that will solve that. you know so I've often wondered why those choices were made in some of those settings.
00:17:29
Speaker
right Why are you creating these factions that are at such extreme odds and then trying to create a story where they're supposed to work together?
00:17:40
Speaker
yeah I never understood that. And I think part of it is you want like the, the, that kind of conflict makes for an interesting play. Oh yeah. Oh sure. Yeah. I was going get to that in sec. Yeah. Like every tension is one thing.
00:17:53
Speaker
Yeah. I want to kill your people and commit genocide is a completely other thing. Right. Like but like every fallout game works like that. Like there's five factions at the end of that game.
00:18:05
Speaker
There's only going to be one. i like choose It's going to be whichever one you decided to. Fair. Fair. Yeah. Are you a Brotherhood person or are you an NCR person? Yeah, right. you know But in the meantime, like you could choose any of the five. So the game's got to allow you yes to have ah all of the five.
00:18:25
Speaker
And that's why you would have those different five as your archetypes. And then you get that sub-problem of like, all right, so why? Yeah. Yeah, if your setting can handle that for the GM, yeah I mean, that's, again, usability, right? let's Let's make this approachable. Otherwise, you're creating a headache, a lot of friction, and they might not even get into it.
00:18:47
Speaker
Well, right. And if it's designed, to everyone should be one of those factions. So, too, should your archetypes then all be six characters from one faction so that they can play together?
00:19:00
Speaker
And you're showing them, like, okay, okay. this is this faction six and sure I'll do another six for a different faction, but just be advised. You're going to pick one of these and everyone's got to be on board. yeah You know, like that's an absolutely valid solution, but yeah you have to think about it, you know?
00:19:19
Speaker
Starbreaker does that with Saints and Sinners, right? You're either playing Saints or you're playing Sinners. You're yeah yeah you're not generally playing both. um Unless you're going to get some heavy ah PvP stuff, which I don't tend to like, but there are some people out there who enjoy that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.
00:19:35
Speaker
But yeah, ah generally you're choosing, right? But on the other side of this coin is you not only want a reason for them to work together, you also want, a I think, to have different viewpoints and different tension between those archetypes. So in the Han cluster, there are certainly that. And it's not even with their backstories. It's with what they do.
00:19:55
Speaker
Some are going to be pro-necks, obviously, right? Some may not be. And some might have an Edenic like love for Edenic and some may have a hate for Edenic or a dislike for Edenic. It's not that you want to kill each other.
00:20:11
Speaker
It's that you have a really interesting dynamic to have these sort of conflicts and discussions among the group about how to interact with the setting. it's a It's a worldview thing, not a I want to kill you thing. Yeah, yeah, right. And I think that's important too.
00:20:27
Speaker
It's like Han Solo and Obi-Wan Kenobi having a conversation about the force. Yeah, right. but And that's literally where role-playing comes from. like People wonder, like how do I make my players role-play, right? like you literally You can't just say in an adventure, stop, role-play here.
00:20:45
Speaker
No, but you can put a situation in front of them. Yeah. That certain types of character will feel very strongly one way and others will another.
00:20:56
Speaker
Then you can sit back and let them talk it out. Right. yeah That's the role playing. Like, yeah, like magic. It happened. Yes. Yeah. And if they've got a strong enough reason to work together, it it doesn't it doesn't necessarily need to you know ah degrade into fists or fighting. But it but the that's part of the fun is that dilemma of of playing your character as who they are versus how are we going to cooperate together to get something much bigger done.
Role of Faction Tension in Gameplay
00:21:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. There's many ways to do that. yeah um You know, 50 Fathom is one way. Haunt Cluster does the same thing as 50 Fathom. absolutely the same thing in a slightly different, lots of different trappings, right? But it's basically the world is drowning.
00:21:43
Speaker
We're going to have to cooperate eventually. Otherwise, we're all screwed. I think another good example is necessary evil. Like you have these villains who all have their own personal agenda. Right. But it's like, okay, you're now part of a cell that's a resistance to reclaim the world.
00:21:58
Speaker
we can We can pick this rivalry up later. Yes. Yeah. this that yeah there's i Often it usually comes down to the environment is so dangerous that we have to work together. yeah If we split up, we will die.
00:22:12
Speaker
And you got to reinforce that as the GM. You know, when, when, you know, loner Logan's going be like, I'm just going go my own way. You go, okay, let's play it out. You happen upon some blood magic on the horrible aisle of wherever. Right. your new character will show up.
00:22:29
Speaker
So hopefully your new character will be more of a team player. Yes. Yes. Now we've established our boundary, ah but, um, But, and then the other one is that there is a organization that is helping the heroes and guide them.
00:22:48
Speaker
Like whether it's providing quests or missions or whatever, or resources, but what they ask for in return is please stay within these lines so we can all, you know, kind of get along.
00:23:03
Speaker
It's it's the the patron, right? Yeah, it is. i think five five e even adopted that. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's everything from from ah Twilight Legion in Deadlands to um the Delta Green, whatever, the organization that work that that yeah that sort of overreaches or overarches the characters or whatever. Like, those are in a lot of games. It's it's an easy way to do it.
00:23:30
Speaker
Pro tip, everyone, it's a very common story beat to then make those organizations evil. Don't do it. yeah Oh, yeah, yeah. You're done. The the betrayal. Yeah, exactly. yeah like then Once they lose trust in that organization, your entire framework is toast. Now you can't adventure anymore. Yeah.
00:23:47
Speaker
I mean, we in in Torg, Daryl and company even went so far as to say, look, the Delphi delphi Council is is not going to betray you. Yeah, we're not evil, man. Because that was a thing in the old game, right? Yeah. like yeah they're like Surprise, they're bad guys, yeah which is fun and all of that.
00:24:06
Speaker
However, Like we kind of need them. So this version, they're just good. so Yeah. And, you know, it's fun to play through that. and But after the fact, then it then it becomes a huge challenge to figure out what you do next. Right. Yeah. you know And especially in something like Torg where a lot of people have been through that and are like, mom I don't trust these guys.
00:24:25
Speaker
a I know in year two, they turn evil. Yeah.
00:24:31
Speaker
Yeah, and part of the fun too is is letting the players, like giving them the opportunity to to determine how far they want to go with it. right Like if they want to go all in on this, you know, intertension, know, not so much to the point where it breaks the game, but where that becomes a big part of the story, that's great.
00:24:48
Speaker
If they want to just have it as like a backdrop conversational thing that comes up once in a blue moon, that's that's just as good, right? um There's no need to to be heavy handed with it.
00:24:59
Speaker
Yeah, and it it becomes a GM problem at some point, like you know or or or a group problem. A group problem. Not everyone might have the same level on that, yeah. Do you want to play this game or not? Yeah.
00:25:12
Speaker
yeah You know, like it's it's it's up to you, the player, to make your character want to work together with these people at this point. It's out of my hands now. It's up to you. yeah Right.
00:25:23
Speaker
But for archetypes, you can solve that by just yeah building them like, oh, yes, they've all got a reason. They've all got a reason. you yeah You're building it in so the players already know. not make this harder on people than it has to be. Yes. We'll solve that problem for you.
00:25:39
Speaker
Something i I thought was kind of cool. um I don't know that. and Well, I know that they weren't intended to be archetypes. and In the original Eberron campaign setting in 3.5, they had these iconic characters, right? And they had like, you know, what class and race they were, but they also gave them a little bit of a backstory, right? So, and then in that backstory, they would refer to the other iconics and their relationships with them and how they met them and and so on.
00:26:03
Speaker
Yeah. And i i I thought that was a really cool thing to do that with ah with my con game for Savage Eberron. And I'm probably going to put up a PDF of these.
00:26:16
Speaker
um I did the archetypes using those iconics. Nice. I gave a summary of the of that backstory so that the players could look at it and they knew, oh I have a relationship with that character.
00:26:27
Speaker
and this is what it's based on. And so that can create cohesion as well. Yeah. i'm i'm i do that I do that all the time for con games, right?
00:26:39
Speaker
And or i and i'll do it for I did it for the jumpstart, for all the archetypes in Holland Cluster, for the jumpstart. They all have... some sort of interaction together for archetypes in the game as as a setting i don't tend to do that yeah because um you never know who's going to play what if they're going to play their own character all that other their stuff you want to give them space to make it their own right so i i still give them a back i give them a little bit of a backstory You know, like this is the Edenic cadet. She really wants to become ah a security officer. She's got a mentor. She's got a connections edge with this mentor on Edenic who's super rough on her, but demands that she goes out and see the cluster, right? She's already got a reason to go out there.
00:27:20
Speaker
She has a motivation for what she wants to do, right? And you can relate to her in the sense of like, she's passionate about something. yeah And now I can role play this and it has nothing to do with anything, any other character in the game.
00:27:34
Speaker
Yeah, especially if those hindrances ah you know tie into that yeah that drive or that story, right? I like it. i like it. You don't have to do it, but I kind of like to do it. I think it's a good move. um So that kind of brings us into into the next part of the conversation about like, you know, how specific do we get in building them, right? Like I remember there was a ah time even with Savage Worlds where the archetypes didn't have hindrances, right? It was like, based on the build, it would be like two minor, one major, or just two minors or whatever.
00:28:06
Speaker
um And I thought that was interesting because it still gave room for the player to then choose the personality and so on. ah with With the current batch, I think they they they lean a little bit more toward filling them in to kind of give a hook.
Gender Representation in Archetypes
00:28:22
Speaker
Yeah, for we try to give it a hook. but We also stay straight up like, by the way, if you want to change, yeah like swap something, go for it. We don't really care. but Yeah, but we want that a formed idea there on the table so that you can latch onto it.
00:28:40
Speaker
or not. Right. Your choice. It's optional. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That specificity gets really tricky because I think, because like, there's, there we can get into this, but there's reasons for not gendering your, your, your archetypes and there's reasons for doing it.
00:29:00
Speaker
One reason for, and a big one in the design space is that you want art for Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So it's really hard to just make everybody, you know, androgynous. Like that's, that's not what you want to do. Well, and and not just art, but you want unique silhouettes, yeah right? Like you want them to cast a very different iconic aspect. And that usually has to be pretty broad. So you're, you're, you're,
00:29:29
Speaker
you're in you you're you're You're painting with a very thick brush there. And that works better when you're like, yep, almost a caricature versus very subtle, very, you know. Right.
00:29:42
Speaker
yeah im I'm also, as ah as a trans person, I'm a big fan of, of I want to play a female. I don't want to play an androgynous person. I don't want to play somebody I choose their gender.
00:29:53
Speaker
I want to play somebody who has that experience, right? That, that, that was built that way, that was born that way. So I'm, I'm a big fan of having, gendered and occasional non-binary, all that stuff so that we have representation.
00:30:08
Speaker
But i'm I'm not a big fan of having the everybody chooses everything. Yeah. Right? Like you get to choose at the table. I think i think that's that's the distinction between like what we spoke about with classes versus like an actual archetype.
00:30:23
Speaker
Whereas the class is like, here's a combination of abilities. Mm-hmm. right? The archetype is this is a person that lives in this world. and and ah and And that distinction, I think is what to your point, Tracy is, you yes, this is this is what this female character living in this world has experienced. And this is what drives her, right? um Whereas if it's just a class and race combination,
00:30:47
Speaker
know, it's, that's fine. It's the abilities. It's here's the thing you can do. cry on the assembl Some players really want that. They want to be able to just create their own backstory and to create their own thing. And that, I totally respect that. Totally get it.
00:31:00
Speaker
and But also for nine, like, I think for almost everything, like not all games, but most games, it's like, okay, I've got this work barbarian or whatever.
00:31:11
Speaker
Yeah. I, You can change it to a female. No one cares. Oh yeah. It doesn't change anything. Yeah. No, no, no, it really doesn't. So it really doesn't. It's, it's really your experience of it. It's, it's, it's how you want to engage with it. Right. Yeah. Right.
00:31:27
Speaker
But yeah. So, and then, you know, like the, the, the talk about names, Daryl. Yeah. Well, so we were talking about like, you know, this level of customization. Right.
00:31:38
Speaker
And, Like the thing that I stress about every time I do this is do we put names down? Yeah. Right. Because like, especially ah like even in a realistic setting.
00:31:50
Speaker
Right. But especially like in a fantasy one where it's like, well, what What is the equivalent of John Smith here? Yes. Right? Like, I'm Bilbo Dag Smith. Like, what is happening? Like, I don't know that until it's on a sheet yeah or if there's a table in the book or whatever.
00:32:09
Speaker
But if I'm just sitting down at a table to play this, I don't have that table. And it's if I don't have something on that sheet that's going to give me some ideas to go with, or if I don't have one on my own, i am going to be,
00:32:25
Speaker
the thief yeah for the entire game. right And that know that limits your options a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm with you. I struggle with that too. Like I, I put names on the jumpstart characters, but I did not put names on the archetype characters, even though there's a name for every one of them in, in my Canon, my, I mean, there it's there. ifve you ask me, I'll give it to them.
00:32:49
Speaker
But, but at the same time, I don't want to give it to you because it's up to you. Well, what we did on the Torg ones was we had a little section and with like 10 different names that you could pick that would all be kind of thematic and appropriate.
00:33:02
Speaker
Which is great, but it's so hard. But but but yeah it's hard. But also what was funny is like internally for us, they were a very specific iconic character. So like you get there, it's almost like, oh, yeah.
00:33:14
Speaker
cool, I will be Mr. Mask or whatever. That's the third name down. real Yeah, that's cool, but I'm going to call you the shroud because that's what you are. yeah Sorry, man. i do that too. i'm like, okay, like, you i don't you might be called ah George Smith, but I'm going to call you Torx. Yeah, exactly.
00:33:35
Speaker
And I don't mean to do that, but it's in my head. It is like we've been doing it for years. It's like, yeah, no, that's that's just cicada. That's just cicada. Sorry. right But I don't mean to do it, but I do it.
00:33:49
Speaker
I do it anyway. But what's interesting, though, is people will, they want that name. yeah A lot of people want it. You know, yeah just tell me what the name is. I'm like, great. I'll tell you it's Trey Bozon. That's your name.
00:34:01
Speaker
And it is, the but it and because it is, it takes a lot of space when you do that, like sitting down at a convention thing, like, well, what's your name? You're like, ah. Pass, come back to me. Like, I don't know.
00:34:12
Speaker
yeah Like I'm pretty creative. I can do this all day. However, i don't know right now. Like haven't played this person. I don't know him. Yeah, that and you're making a good point there about the purpose of these archetypes, right? there's there's There's iconic characters that have you know identities that we use to represent what a character in this world is like.
00:34:34
Speaker
There's archetypes that you use that are just like the two line description of you can play this, right? Yeah, yeah. And then there's, I'm at a con, I'm role playing a character, who's the character?
00:34:45
Speaker
Yeah. right Right. And and then and that's these are very different functions. Yeah. Exactly. And I could have exactly the same stats, but if one's named Dag Stabface and the other is like, and you you know, Multibon, I'm going to be playing that same character two very different ways. And it all came down to the name.
00:35:05
Speaker
Right, right. Yeah. And I don't know. i don't know that we have an answer, right? I don't think there is an answer. I think and it's it's the pen it depends, right? It's what are you doing with the archetype?
00:35:15
Speaker
You know, is it is it something that like the cards that you pick up and you go to a con game, you pass them out? you know And even then that and you know in those cases, like I think Peg uses generic wizard.
00:35:28
Speaker
Yeah, we use we use generic careers. But the funny thing is the starter box that we're working on, we're using those exact same ones, but we're naming them. Oh, cool. To give them a little bit more personality. Yeah. Like and just personalizing them a little bit. It's like, yeah. yeah Like you can just use the gunslinger if you want, but however, this is red and red's like 90% the gunslinger with a couple of tweaks. Yeah. Now you're playing red though. So yeah, be advised. And that's same, with the jumpstart versus, yeah versus not in, in Cluster. And I still like, I still sit there and go, well, yeah,
00:36:03
Speaker
The reason I did it that way is so that we have archetypes that are named according to class so that, you know, you can look at that archetype and know what they do. Know what they do. And I could put their name on the back, but at the same time, like, well, I don't know. Let them name them.
00:36:20
Speaker
Yeah. yeah it's It's tough. I don't know. I don't know the answer. But then I have plenty of, you know, NPC allies who are named characters who are very specific.
00:36:31
Speaker
And that gives you the opportunity to and and you get the opportunity
Visual and Narrative Role of Archetypes
00:36:34
Speaker
to play them later. Like yeah you're playing a pregen at that point with a backstory that you know that, you know, like you've played with them.
00:36:43
Speaker
You've discovered their backstory in play and now you can continue playing them for just an adventure. Right. Yeah. And that's, so it's the kind of the best of the both worlds in, in, in a way or the worst of both worlds, whichever.
00:36:57
Speaker
Yeah. In our, in our podcast, it's the worst of both worlds, right? Everything's gloom and doom and it's hard and but everything is hard. I have to say. I'm in the middle of that last 10% right
00:37:12
Speaker
That feels like 90%. That's right. So I think my overall is, you know, make them fun, give them life, and don't just define them by their equipment or their designated skills. Give them a little something extra.
00:37:26
Speaker
yeah Yeah. You know, and because that's going to come through in whatever art you do for them anyway, is you're going to have to decide who they are in order to even make art for them. Yeah. Unless all you're doing is doing power armor with no...
00:37:41
Speaker
and no No expression whatsoever. Yeah. you know what if if Which is a character type. It absolutely is Absolutely. i was going to say, if if in your art order, you can include a little bit of personality to you know for the artist to bring that out, that's that's cool.
00:37:57
Speaker
Well, it is, but that's also like the first hurdle that you have to do when you do these characters. like When you're making that description, it's like, well, okay, like this person's... standing there and is a redhead. Like that doesn't tell you anything. No. Are they smirking?
00:38:14
Speaker
Okay. Now I know a little bit more. Yeah. Like do they look scared? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The more of that you get up front and then the more of that you can translate into the archetype. And again, like we were saying in mechanics, and if you can't,
00:38:30
Speaker
You need to find something. like yeah We've added several hindrances because we're like, wow, there isn't actually something that quite captures this. but then once you put it down, you're like, ah, okay, now I can do this. Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah and yeah you Like, what are they wearing? what is it What is their facial expression? What are they holding? What's their what's their pose? What are they doing?
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah. My favorite of the recent ones is rebellious. a Right? It's like, it's such a little thing. It's just a minor one, but it's just like, you've got a problem with authority. it's like, ah, you put that on a character and you can just sit back and let the magic happen. Like, okay. I will play that character. Yeah.
00:39:15
Speaker
Yeah. Big mouth's one of my favorites. Yeah. Yeah. Big mouth is always a good one. Yeah. that' a class And there are, for, for conventions, there are certain, like the broader types play better. Yeah. Yeah. Subtle's great, yeah but yeah.
00:39:27
Speaker
For those like one and done things, like almost caricature. Yeah. Yeah. works Exactly. Death wish. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.
00:39:38
Speaker
Or, you know, sarcasm is my love language or something. Yeah. Yeah. It's just you do is sarcasm. yeah I just do that anyway. And then without even directly referencing the other archetypes, you can put interlocking ones.
00:39:51
Speaker
yeah have Yeah. Two people with opposite ones. Yeah. You just know, like, I don't have to put anything on their card. If they're doing their thing, this is just going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. They're going to find role playing magic. Yeah. That's Because of that.
00:40:06
Speaker
That's right. Anything else, everybody? i think we covered it. um and And I'm sure there's other thoughts and we'll probably have conversations on the discord. I'm sure. It's really hard, right? Like this, this is, this is the work that you put in at the beginning that matters. And then what's really interesting is when you're continuing a line,
00:40:30
Speaker
over time. And what we got? We've got something like 48 archetypes for deadlands now. Like, and then yeah you have to start digging deep of like, okay, what haven't we explored yeah that should be explored, right? That that we missed.
00:40:47
Speaker
yeah And then that brings up new flavors of the game. like oh It does. it also It also informs what you can do next in the game. Right. Like, whoa, well, we haven't explored this archetype, so we should make adventures that yeah that utilize that archetype.
00:41:03
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And if you did the work that we talked about earlier about, you know, making it ah sort of giving it structure so that they have a reason to work together, doesn't matter how broad you go with your archetypes, you have a way that they're going to be working together.
00:41:18
Speaker
right so Right. In Han cluster, that's X-bonding and and the the blinding and what's happening. So yeah the blinding is not going to bring you together right away necessarily, but the X-bonding will.
00:41:31
Speaker
Yeah. yeah whether you Whether you realize it or not, you'll all of a sudden be, we're working together because this is how who we are now. Yeah. yeah I mean, and sometimes it's as easy as the meta discussion. Like, hey, look, everyone, just play nice. Let's just do I agree. And sometimes, I mean, I know Mac and I, my friend Mac and I really, really like to work together.
00:41:55
Speaker
yeah you know And so some players will enjoy that aspect of it and their characters will sort of extend that. And while Mac and I will work cooperatively together, Dawn will work separately. outlash She'll go off on her own thing. was say, Dawn and I are just going to mess everybody up. exactly right Exactly. But that's okay because I still have Mac.
00:42:16
Speaker
and And I know that he's going to work together with me and and sort of cooperate. And that'll be, that'll make me feel good while Daryl can go and wreck stuff. Right. Well, and then when it gets bad, Don and I will come, you know, crawling back to the group. we'll do it your way. Yeah. Well, you know, and, and, you know, yeah this is, as we said before, this is really more of a GM problem because in the end, the conversation that needs to be had is, you know, when two players are like, well, why would we work together?
00:42:46
Speaker
It should be flipped. Why would you work together? Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a player problem. Yeah. Like, why are you going to tell him? You tell me you tell me you're going to work with him despite the way that you feel.
00:42:58
Speaker
I agree a hundred percent. I've had many a time where like, is it, cause it is a classic character beat, yeah right? Refuse the call. I don't want to be here. i just want to live a normal life.
00:43:11
Speaker
And you can just kill yourself trying to keep that person invested or you can say, look, it is your job to keep yourself in this.
00:43:22
Speaker
yeah Otherwise, like I will let you go. Yep. You did it. Mission accomplished. You escaped and you're living a normal life. right If you can't come up with a reason why you get sucked back in you're done.
00:43:37
Speaker
<unk> Stop fighting me so hard. right yeah you're You're the alternative version of Lord of the Rings where Bilbo just stayed home. Yeah, right. Exactly. If he's not going to go like, cool, cool. I'm going to follow the character that you build that does want to go. Yeah.
00:43:51
Speaker
Yeah. It's not up to the GM to make Bilbo go. It's up to you to decide to go, to decide to play. Right. Right. it's up to us to build the archetype that does want to go. Yes. That's true. Absolutely. Tying it all back. Tying it all back.
00:44:07
Speaker
the ties are back All right. Well, once again, Daryl, thank you very much for coming on. It's always awesome. I'm so lucky to know you and to have these discussions with you all the time, not just on a podcast. Sam, I'm so lucky you guys just keep asking me to come back.
00:44:25
Speaker
Well, I do it just because you know Tracy gets you all the time. i only get you whenever you're on this show. so Or if I see you at con. I might be doing that.
00:44:37
Speaker
Pretty cool. um I'm easy. I'm easy to find. Cool, cool. All right. Well, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server.
00:44:58
Speaker
Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few along the way.