Transcript
Speaker: on zencastr Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abyssaida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
Speaker: I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I am joined by Dr. Samar Javed, who is a Business and Management Lecturer and Researcher into Knowledge Management at the University of Derby.
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Speaker: As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Hello, Samar. Thank you for joining us. Hello. Thank you very much for the invitation.
Speaker: It's a pleasure. Please could we start by you explaining a little bit about your research into knowledge management. So I completed my PhD, which was about knowledge management ah in think tank organizations.
Speaker: Think tank organizations, and mainly I've focused on social sciences, policy research organizations. That also means these organizations are the producers of knowledge.
Speaker: And on top of it, my thesis was that knowledge management can enhance productivity and performance of these knowledge producing organizations.
Speaker: Knowledge Management that is linked in with the quotation which you have suggested we talk about today, which I am really pleased is actually one of the du'rs from, well not a verse from the Qur'an but a du'r which is a ah prayer.
Speaker: The quotation is, O Allah, I ask you for beneficial knowledge, goodly provision and acceptable deeds. As you said, it's a du'a.
Speaker: It's an Arabic du'a for Muslims. I would like to start with the actual du'a in the Arabic. Please, yes, please.
Speaker: Okay, so as in Arabic for any du'as, we mostly start with the name of Allah, which we say like, Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. And the dua is Allahumma inni asaluka.
Speaker: Which means, I ask Allah. Ilman naafi'an. Ilman means knowledge. Nafi'ans mean beneficial. So, ilman naafi'an, beneficial knowledge.
Speaker: Further, it says, warrizqan tayyiban. Rizq means provisions or your earnings. Tayyiban means payor or good.
Speaker: Next it says, wa amalan mutaqabbalan which means, amalan means deeds and the mutaqabbalan means acceptable.
Speaker: So it actually says that we are asking to Allah who is God, For three things, the beneficial knowledge, goodly provisions, and acceptable deeds.
Speaker: Now, all these three phrases, the terminologies, had two sub-terminologies in it, and all three were have very detailed deeper meanings which are very closely knitted to the understanding of knowledge itself.
Speaker: That's where i wanted to start by saying the Doa itself because I also believe that the Arabic terminology, these all three phrases coming in here, have way deeper meaning as just in the English transliteration.
Speaker: ah So we cannot just say toibhan as with good. So it's generally translated as goodly provision, but risk as well have a very wider meaning.
Speaker: as compared to just the translation. So we do need to go into ah the detailed explanations. It speaks a very simple approach to the day when you say this at the beginning of the day.
Speaker: That's very it true, yeah. So if we think of our daily routine, any person, effort, their activity will be around those three scenarios. All those three things are being encompassed in that simple statement. Yes. So you do good learning, you earn right thing. Okay.
Speaker: And you do good deeds. The idea of beneficial knowledge can be taken in in different ways. There is the knowledge that you gain in a formal way, things you do in a formal educational knowledge gaining activity, like going to school or university or somebody at work explaining something to you.
Speaker: And there's also the more abstract version of knowledge, which I think is more about common sense and how this, I think, was saying, like, give me all of the the beneficial knowledge, but but don't forget that as well as the qualifications, I also need the common sense.
Speaker: Well, there could be various dimensions. So if in in in the field of knowledge management, so it have data, wisdom, knowledge. So, you know, that that hierarchy.
Speaker: it It could include intuition as well. Yes. So with senses, that might be the input for for knowledge. So if we think it as a as a machinery, we can say that, okay, the CPU is the brain.
Speaker: Intellect has been working on it as a software. You have the inputting device, which is your five senses. And then on top of it, you have sixth sense.
Speaker: But also there is intuition more to it. And there is more to that whole explanation which has been so far presented in the research.
Speaker: This is true. Our knowledge is very limited, very, very limited. And that's what we always get after one question. If we resolve that one question, we actually end up with two, three more questions.
Speaker: We start resolving those questions. Some more questions are standing in in our in a way later on. So the cycle keeps going on and on, but we have limited knowledge which limits further with various worldly ah constraints.
Speaker: But the actual point you started from is beneficial. So knowledge in itself, how are we defining, that goes very deep.
Speaker: it's It's over 10 years I've been researching, doing research in about knowledge and in knowledge management. And when someone asks me to define what knowledge is, I'm very hesitant.
Speaker: I struggle. ah You know, my my sibling, my elder brother. So even after PhD, when he asked me, okay, so you have done PhD in knowledge management. What is knowledge?
Speaker: And I always get started. I know. I know that gonna be into that naughty conversation and I avoid not to get into it. When you you can have knowledge a little bit of knowledge which gives you a thirst to increase your knowledge but eventually you can reach the point where you have a large amount of knowledge as anyone does who has a PhD in a particular subject you become an expert and somebody once told me an expert is someone who knows increasingly more about increasingly less so you your knowledge is more specialized but actually
Speaker: The more specialized you are, the more difficult it is to give a straightforward definition of something. Because you know more, you start admitting it, realizing it more, that how little you have.
Speaker: You can see the whole picture of everything because a piece of knowledge from there, from here, all all these pieces of knowledge come together, which show you, um I suppose, the gaps in our knowledge as much as the knowledge that we can actually say, yes, that is true, I can see that, I can see that that is no longer relevant.
Speaker: It's a case of balancing um where we are. And I suppose ah for most people who are not a specialist in a specific area, there comes a point where you have to say, actually, i know enough.
Speaker: thats That's very hard to say. Even in any field, you know, even if professor with, you know, near to retirement age or after that, ah if they would say that, I would say they are lying.
Speaker: it It never be gonna end up. They would always be. And if you see how dynamic the field of research is, every day you keep discovering more and more. Every day you keep coming. And you're the knowledge you possess, the knowledge the researchers and the academic academicians possess, it gets outdated.
Speaker: Yes. So when a new research comes up, the research you have done previous years, that's get dated. So that means you need new knowledge. When every moment is unique, when each new moment is unique, how can you actually deal with that moment on the basis of past understanding?
Speaker: So knowledge, what we understand, is mainly based on the past understandings. That is true. We know what we know because of something that has happened in the past. We do not know about the future.
Speaker: Think what you're describing there. So go back to what I'm saying, that is that you can reach a point where you have the knowledge that you need in order to do the acceptable deeds and receive goodly provision for that.
Speaker: But what you've also said, in like because knowledge updates all the time, there is always something new happening. That's a very good reminder that actually we should not sit back on our laurels at work. We should not say we know all that we need to know.
Speaker: We've always got to have that open mind and looking for the new thing that might be happening somewhere else that we can learn from. It's not a case of and knowledge gaining learning is a point that comes to an end.
Speaker: But as our knowledge increases, perhaps we reach a point that we know what we need to know in order to be good at our jobs. But a part of being good at our jobs is to also recognize the need for constant learning, constant improving, not sitting back and saying, I know it all, but actually trying to move forward.
Speaker: Yeah, continuously striving to know more, to be better beings is the requirement. But coming back to the point of fear we were saying beneficial, so I think it is very important to differentiate but between beneficial and non-beneficial.
Speaker: In my research, I found that there is another door which asks Allah to be a refuge from knowledge which does not have benefit, which I interpreted to mean protect me from gossip, from useless information which is of no benefit to me, information which I get to know about and worry about, but not actually be able to do anything good in order to remedy a situation.
Speaker: Yeah, that's very true. In today's world, we talk about big data. We are in the era of social media where we can have thrown our whole day 24 hours into social media, keep going on and on, you know from one video to the other video, from one post to the other post, and the cycle continues. But what is the the benefit or the outcome out of that?
Speaker: That is a conversation I've had with myself several times. What is the benefit of me you know going onto a website, getting the news, and then all of a sudden, half an hour later, realizing that I've been watching things or reading things that are no benefit to me, but they've just been there it could lead us to the world future world of zombies rather than human beings.
Speaker: But again, when I was thinking about about this, a very good example is when a child comes to this world and from all stages of different age, they are getting exposed to the world. They are absorbing the knowledge from their environment, from the people around them.
Speaker: And they get everything. So you know, a child, when it's born, how innocent is that? babies, the young kids, their inquisitive ability, inquiring ability, when that is being exposed to the environment, it starts getting corrupts.
Speaker: And as they grown up, they start becoming rigid and less innocent and less pure with all those impurities which they have actually absorbed from the environment.
Speaker: So when we say beneficial knowledge, so let's, in the context of what I've just said, think further, person who doesn't know what is, let's say, ah a certain crime is, but when that person comes to know some crime,
Speaker: or some immorality. That person is different who didn't knew that bad thing. But once he knew that thing, and you know, with that bad awareness, I feel that devil's chances to attack that innocent soul becomes convenient that they can mislead that being to take the negative steps so they can be in that context where they can take that negative actions, wrong deeds, because they know that wrong deed could be conducted.
Speaker: you know You think of any addictions, any drug addiction might be. If they don't know the taste, they don't know the taste, they don't have urge. But once they have tasted, once they know, that's the non-beneficial, hazardous knowledge which they have known which is leading them to the wrong deeds.
Speaker: I think what you're meaning is that we are all role models to each other. I can remember back to the early days of my career for example and seeing how people worked in the office. I was told once it doesn't matter how busy you are, what's important is to look busy.
Speaker: So you can have nothing or very little to do during your working day, but if somebody walks past you, they've got to think that you are very busy. So have lots of paper on your desk.
Speaker: The idea is to get away with doing as little as possible for as much as possible, which is unbeneficial knowledge was being given that piece of advice to behave in an unprofessional way.
Speaker: That's the way you get on. being told how to do it, the unacceptable deed. When you do something that actually is not ah an acceptable deed, it's impossible to then get goodly provision, a goodly reward, because you've not actually done the things that justify you that reward.
Speaker: But it's ah it's a great way to start the day because this is ah a door that would be set at the start of the day. looking for that beneficial knowledge. I suppose your research is into how knowledge is managed, not just organisationally, but I suppose individually as well.
Speaker: We all have a responsibility to manage our knowledge and the The most important part part of that knowledge is probably the filter that you're describing earlier on. It's like being able to work out, to have the common sense to realize that something that you might see someone else doing or might be invited to do yourself actually isn't a good idea.
Speaker: and being able to say no without experiencing it, without having tasted the the thing that we know common sense tells us that is not a good idea. It's a bit like in a group of friends, one individual may try something and then that becomes acceptable for all the other group people in that group because one person has done it.
Speaker: It's back to that saying about it only takes one rotten apple to spoil the barrel. It's that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You have to have good company. And that's been been said. you you You're known by your companionship.
Speaker: Yes, you are as good as the people that you hang out with. You are as good as your reputation and your reputation is in impacted by the people that you also hang out with, the people that you choose to make as friends or business associates.
Speaker: That impacts um how you perceive the knowledge that is presented to you and your ability to decide whether it is beneficial or not beneficial.
Speaker: That can even, I suppose, come down to the organization that you choose to work with. If your organization has a reputation for being ah poor employer, it doesn't treat its customers well, it doesn't treat its employees well, it doesn't play its role in society. Knowledge, you learn that how you should be.
Speaker: what should be your morals. But not just possessing knowledge is, you know, on its own is a golden key. But it's that golden triangle which we have been getting from this statement, this Doa, that your knowledge should lead to good actions and your knowledge should make you earn the righty right things.
Speaker: And you know, the the riskcon toyhe ban de goodly provisions, the earning you earn that should be right. The provisions, it's actually been in translations, it appears as the earnings you earn.
Speaker: That it's blessings. It's not just the provisions, the earnings. It covers all blessings which you get. So your children, it's one of the blessings you have.
Speaker: Your blessing, your provision is not just the earnings from your job, is did not just the profit from your business, but it's all other blessings around you. So if you have five senses, it's a blessing as well.
Speaker: Now it's up to you that how would you be utilizing for all your senses, all your blessings. That's right. if You can differentiate between right and wrong and that will only happen by the knowledge you possess.
Speaker: When you differentiate the right and wrong, you will be able to perform the good deeds. So that golden triangle keeps going. Good deeds, good moral character developed, you will be having more urge.
Speaker: to gain righteous knowledge. Where I started my life journey, it was that first dua, first quote, and now I'm at this stage where I am able to slightly debrief these three sub-phrases in this in this statement.
Speaker: So the first quote was that your duty and by your duty it means for any Muslim their role is a must thing to do is to gain knowledge is a major duties the major role for any Muslim and for a human being from cradle to grave Constantly learning, constantly improving.
Speaker: But it also means understanding as well, doesn't it? It's not just about gaining the knowledge that comes from structured learning. It's about understanding of ourselves, how we interact with the world. Definitely.
Speaker: Yeah. So you'll only be able to jump from beneficial knowledge to good deeds with that understanding. Yes.
Speaker: So it needs to be there. Otherwise, if you just have that, you are more like a machine which is holding data. The human being is way more than machines. So if you think of last two centuries, the ITAC and roughly say capitalism, industrial revolution started, that all actually emphasized towards ah you know mass production and machines.
Speaker: So the way our businesses, the industries, the ah you manufacturing units, they they treated human being as like working mechanically.
Speaker: But recently in in last few decades, only last few decades, it's been realized that no, Even at this stage now when we are having artificial intelligence and we are making intelligent robots, we we have started realizing that human beings need to be distinct than those artificially programmed machines.
Speaker: And that distinction is knowledge. I can see what you mean. This is a very straightforward, simple phrase when you look at it. But when you start to think about it and what it actually means, this idea of beneficial knowledge being not just academic knowledge, but life skills, soft skills, understanding of our environment, understanding of other people,
Speaker: that sets us apart from and other people. The knowledge. There's an expression that knowledge is power, but knowledge is actually what enables you to be a better person as long as you are constantly looking to improve that knowledge, to do the good deeds, the acceptable deeds with that knowledge links in with so many other teachings.
Speaker: And then looking for an appropriate reward rather than i want more and more and more. slide If you want more, learn more.
Speaker: And when you've learned more, apply that knowledge in good deeds and that will then result in a better reward. But reward is not, as I often say to people, that element of loads of money from the 1980s for those of us like me who are old enough to remember that decade.
Speaker: It is the non-financial rewards. It is the the fact that somebody might have said thank you. Somebody smiled. You could see the appreciation for what you had done, the impact that you have beyond the actual deed. What you do with the knowledge that you gain becomes your value as a human being. It's what you do with what you learn.
Speaker: And I like this idea of the the golden triangle is that the starting point is this this need to search for knowledge and to constantly be assessing your knowledge.
Speaker: Samar, thank you. You're welcome. I think we set the foundations within this conversation for understanding the importance of knowledge and how that is what drives everything else.
Speaker: Learn before you act is one of the key messages from this. Very important. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. It is beneficial for me as well.
Speaker: Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Dr. Samar Javed, who is a Business and Management Lecturer and Researcher into Knowledge Management at the University of Derby.
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