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50. Navigating New Love After Loss - With Liz Hall and Dave Devine
93 Plays4 years ago
Dave’s wife Sharon was diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer shortly after their daughter was born, and she passed away a few short years after, in January 2019.
Liz’ s husband Bryan died suddenly of a heart attack in March 2019, he was only 36 years old. Their daughters were only 7 and 2 when their father died.
We talk about how they met and how they fell in love. How they have supported each other and their girls in this grief process as well as how they keep Shari and Bry’s memory alive in their home. Honoring their memory as well as knowing that they will always love them. They share the tool’s they have used in their grief process, specially helping the girls navigate grief; therapy, as well as Grief Support groups have been a big part.
Listen to their very candid stories of love, loss and finding love again.
Contact Kendra Rinaldi to be a guest or a complimentary coaching session: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/
Logo: https://www.pamelawinningham.com
Music: http://www.rinaldisound.com
Production: Carlos Andres Londono
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Transcript
Navigating New Emotions
00:00:01
Speaker
Sometimes I find it really hard to be able to just be like, I'm sorry, I miss my dead husband. And because you're in a new love and you're still in love with your deceased husband, it's amazing how strong the brain is. That's what I'm learning through all of this. That's something that I'd just like to add. Being someone who experienced the same thing, I get it. And I don't get jealous about it. I encourage her to.
00:00:31
Speaker
you know, explore those emotions and talk to me about them because, you know, I understand and she understands, you know, that we both have very, very much have a strong love for these people.
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:45
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:53
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:09
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
Meet the Guests: Dave & Elizabeth
00:01:32
Speaker
I am so happy to have today with you guys Dave Devine and Elizabeth Hall. Now, this is going to be a unique call because I'm interviewing two people at the same time. Liz and I actually met a CrossFit. Oh, wow. Do you remember how long ago that was, Liz? When did we meet? It had to have been at least a year ago.
00:01:53
Speaker
at least. I had just gone back for a little bit and we ended up talking and you shared a little of your story and I was like, oh my gosh. And then this is way before I started doing the podcast and I've never met Dave, just by passing and then you guys will find out the circumstances of how we all are connected. But I'm so happy to have you both here. Thank you for joining the podcast.
00:02:20
Speaker
Thanks so much for having us. Our pleasure. Thank you. All right. Thank you.
Dave's Story of Loss and Support
00:02:24
Speaker
Okay. So we're going to start off by, let's start with, let's see, Dave, you are a widower and yours happened first, correct? That's correct. Okay. So let's go with your story. So if you want to tell us, just tell us a little bit about you. What do you do and a little bit about your life, and then I'll just start asking you a few things.
00:02:46
Speaker
Sure. Um, yes. Uh, my name is Dave and I'm originally from Southern California and relocated to Texas in 2011, um, for my work. Um, I'm a federal firefighter. I work on a military installation in East Texas and, um, my wife.
00:03:11
Speaker
Cherry, uh, was diagnosed with, uh, stage four breast cancer, uh, shortly after our daughter was born. And, um, she battled it for five years. Um, and we went through quite a bit together and as a family and yeah, that's, uh, that's pretty much it.
00:03:38
Speaker
I know it's hard to sometimes talk about these things. And by the way, for the listeners, the reason I'm having Dave and Liz on is because they're a couple. So this is going to be a unique interview for that reason, too, because it's also how they support each other in this process, too. So I'm intrigued. I'm finding out with the listeners as I'm interviewing.
00:04:03
Speaker
Dave, how old was your daughter then when Sherry passed away? How old was she? When she passed, she was three or four. And this was what year did she pass away? In 2019, January.
00:04:23
Speaker
Oh, wow. Okay. It's been recent and it feels so recent. It feels, yeah, recent now. I don't know. It's recent yet far. Recent yet distant. Yeah. Now, when she was going through cancer, yeah, when she was going through her process, did she go through chemo, all that during those four to five years that she was battling?
00:04:50
Speaker
Yes. Um, like I said, she was, she was, uh, initially diagnosed stage four, so there was no, uh, warning or anything like that. Um, our daughter, Olive was about four months old when, when we found out, um, she was just having pain kind of diffuse through her whole body and trying to figure out, you know, what was causing it. And, um, just through a routine, um, her, uh, gynecologist checkup, she discovered a lump and
00:05:19
Speaker
Once we mentioned back pain and things like that, it was just numerous scans and all this stuff. And before we knew it, it was discovered throughout her entire body. So she started out in a bad place. I was having to basically care for her and our daughter at the same time. And it got to the point where
00:05:47
Speaker
I was having to, you know, carry her to the bathroom and things like that. So, yes, initially chemo, it's just kind of the first round of how things start out whenever those of the listeners who have experienced cancer probably understand how this works. And it's, including myself, I have, yeah, my mom died of cancer. So I understand that component of it too. So I can relate.
00:06:10
Speaker
So chemos, numerous chemos, we petition very hard to get into MD Anderson pretty much right away. And so that's where we started our journey and I'm stuck with them for the entire time through numerous surgeries as well, because as you know, the cancer, once it's, you know, stage four typically kind of comes and goes. So yeah.
00:06:37
Speaker
Wow. Now you moved here from California to Texas. Was Sherry from Texas? Because then what kind of support did you guys have in terms of family in this area?
Challenges and Community Support
00:06:48
Speaker
Yeah. Um, no, Sherry was actually from the DC area. Uh, we met in California and then, and then moved here. Um, as far as support, uh, initially it was, you know, quite difficult. Like I said, it was just myself. Um, and some of our close friends, uh, we really lean.
00:07:06
Speaker
heavily on them, they came through. And as well as Sherry's family, her mom came out and her sister and a lot of extended family members came out and just kind of helped. Sherry was very adamant about keeping our daughter Olive away from the hospital aspect, the treatment aspect. So initially, you know,
00:07:33
Speaker
When Olive was an infant, she didn't really understand. So I was carrying her around the hospitals and things like that. While Sherry was at her appointments. But once we got some more support, Olive would stay at home with most of the time, my mother-in-law, Raya.
00:07:50
Speaker
Well, that's great that she was able to move here basically during that time to help you with that because that is a lot. I was just wondering because I'm sure that a lot of people are in those circumstances too in which they may just be alone in wherever they live with no family around to help them in this process. And the fact that you did it.
00:08:10
Speaker
as you were raising a newborn as well. That is just a lot. Now, after, you know, during her, you know, when she passed and what words do you prefer to use, by the way, in terms of passing or death or, you know, after her death, after her passing, after her loss, what are the words that you usually use in your vocabulary regarding that? I don't have a set term that I
00:08:37
Speaker
use or whatever anyone's comfortable with. Okay. So there's no trigger words that I may say that may, like, you know, so I'm asking it just because sometimes, you know, if by chance I say something that for the, for the person I'm talking to, maybe a trigger word, then I just want to make sure to be sensitive. So you're comfortable talking about it. You know, if I say after her death, it's okay in your, in your vocabulary too. Yes. Okay.
Explaining Loss to a Child
00:09:02
Speaker
So when she passed, then what were the words you used to describe for Olive? What had happened? I mean, she had only known her mom being sick, right? So how was that transition for you and for Olive?
00:09:26
Speaker
Uh, fortunately the hospital we were at, uh, towards the end, um, had a child life specialist. So I got her involved. Um, and like I said, uh, Sherry like to prefer to keep all of away from the hospital and treatment aspect. So while she knew that we traveled to Houston all the time, um, pretty much every week, um, you know, she didn't really see that side of it. Um, so.
00:09:57
Speaker
She also saw, I mean, Sherry sick multiple times. I mean, you know, with the stage four, I mean, it had spread her liver at certain times, you know, it would be in certain areas of her body that would cause her a lot of pain. And so she would be, you know, just kind of in bed.
00:10:16
Speaker
you know, in her brain, at one point she had to have surgery as well. And so all of us kind of, I mean, she's a very smart kid. She was very aware of what was going on. But at the same time, Sherry was very strong. She did not an independent. So if, and very driven to support those who were in a similar situation as herself,
00:10:42
Speaker
Um, and so she would keep herself busy all the time. I mean, I remember one time it was right after her, um, her brain surgery, uh, like within three hours, she was on the phone talking to vendors, um, trying to raise money for her organization. Um,
00:11:03
Speaker
She was very driven. And so I just got chills on that. I just got chills because that's sometimes too, like what kind of drives our focus away from us is serving others too, right? It's like the best way to also heal certain her case. That's where she would put her energy was serving others.
00:11:19
Speaker
Yes, most definitely she was very focused on that. So going back to your original question. Yeah, I mean, I spoke with the child life therapist, you know, and just kind of got feedback from her as to how I should approach it. When I did have the conversation with all of
00:11:42
Speaker
It was very difficult, you know, and she, her initial reaction to me was, you know, I just, I was very, you know, honest and open about it. And that's the best way to be with children and anybody in that regard. And I just explained to her, you know, about, you know, Sherry being sick and,
00:12:11
Speaker
And that she fought as hard as she could and, you know, they just, um, you know, she couldn't, she couldn't fight any longer, basically. And, and that she was, she was, she was gone, you know, and, um, and, um, you know, you try, you want to say somebody thinks at that time, but it's.
00:12:31
Speaker
The age, right. Yeah, especially also because of her age, you kind of have to just be wise as to what words you use particularly too, right, for that particular age that she was in. And then I'm sure that as she's gotten older, maybe she's asked a little bit more about it. Has she? In some aspects, yes. In others, not so much. I think because of her age at the time.
00:12:58
Speaker
And just all of who she is, she's very kind of black and white. And so, yeah, her initial reaction to me was she got very angry with me and ran and hid in her room. And so I had to, you know, you know, go in there and talk to her and, and, and yeah, all those things. So, but yeah, she'll ask, you know, questions.
00:13:24
Speaker
as her brain becomes more developed and she's able to think about it in more abstract ways. You know, it's, it's kind of like a revisiting, you know, and that's something that the, the Child Life Specialist had expressed to me is that, you know, as her brain develops, you know, you can expect to deal with this throughout her life, you know, at certain ages and benchmarks and, and also big life events. So that's kind of how we handle things that we expect that they'll
00:13:52
Speaker
they'll come and try to just maintain consistency with that. That's wonderful. Thank you, Dave. And thank you for revisiting that and for sharing up to that point. So now we're going to swap it. And I'm going to now I'll unmute Liz so that the background noise. And if you want, I can mute you, Dave. And that way, by chance, you have to move or anything like that. Then it won't pick up.
00:14:19
Speaker
So then we'll ask Liz some questions. So Liz, now it's your turn now to share a little bit then about yours. So I'm going to go back and forth here and then we'll kind of mesh both stories then together. So tell us a little bit about you and Brian and the girls.
00:14:41
Speaker
Sure.
Elizabeth's Sudden Loss Experience
00:14:42
Speaker
So I'm Liz. I'm originally from the Buffalo, New York area. Due to Brian's job, we lived all up and down the East Coast from 2005 on. Brian and I were actually high school sweethearts or whatever they call it. So we have been together since 11th grade and went to college together and all that fun stuff. And so we moved all over the place for Toyota.
00:15:12
Speaker
Right now, currently, I am just a stay-at-home mom because as much as 2019 sucked as, you know, right after Brian died, I got laid off from my company as well, which was a blessing in disguise because it's given me time to heal and really focusing on, you know, my little ladies and my life. But anyways, we moved to Texas in 2019.
00:15:33
Speaker
17, I think, to make it our forever home. We were sick of the traveling with Toyota and so by coming to Plano and working at headquarters, there would be less travel and we found an awesome neighborhood and built our dream house with a pool and spa-like backyard.
00:15:54
Speaker
And everything was great. And then in March of 2019, Brian went to CrossFit for the Open. He was a hardcore CrossFitter there every day, usually at the 5am class.
00:16:11
Speaker
Which I thought he was crazy because he would get up at you know 430 and I just couldn't function at that time So he went off to he went to work that day. He went to CrossFit after work for the open and Called me and told me he was gonna be late because there was traffic some sort of an accident and I said, that's fine He came home
00:16:32
Speaker
He took a shower, ate a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and then said he wasn't feeling well, and two hours later was pronounced dead of a Widowmaker heart attack, and my entire life changed in a matter of two hours.
00:16:48
Speaker
That is just... I remember when I was with you sitting there at CrossFit after... I think we had just worked out and I was not chatting with you. And there was a pic... I think there was a picture of him at the gym, like him and then... Yeah, Mike hung up a picture of his crew.
00:17:07
Speaker
Yeah. So I was like, oh, I remember the conversation. I'm like, oh, I don't know. What is that? And then you said, it's like, no, that's my husband. And I think when I met you, it had just been a few months. It had been maybe two to four months maybe when I met you that it had been very recent. Yeah, it was definitely fresh. And I remember when I met you,
00:17:31
Speaker
And I was like, oh yeah, that's my husband. And then you were like, oh, I'm a grief counselor. And I was like, holy cow. Somebody just dropped you out of the sky for me. Yeah, it was just kind of like a weird kind of, yeah. And so tell us then the ages of your daughters and their names as well. Sure. So I have Eva, who is currently 10. She was seven when Bri passed away. And then I have Emily, who's currently four. And she was two when everything happened.
00:17:58
Speaker
So now this is a very different dynamic than what happened with Dave and Sherry because of being sudden, then you didn't have that time to kind of prepare them for something coming. You had to just share with them the news right away, just as you were finding it out yourself. So there was no anticipatory grief or anything like that that happens. It's just right away.
Communicating Loss to Children
00:18:25
Speaker
How was that? Because he was young, right? He was under 40. Oh yeah, he was 36. 36. 36, you have two girls. How do you then communicate this to your daughters? And again, you have the same situation. You're also, your family is not here in Texas either.
00:18:44
Speaker
Yeah, it was definitely not easy. Thankfully, when everything went down, my older daughter was at a friend's house. So she was unaware of anything going on, and the little one was sleeping. So my neighbor actually came over. My one neighbor went with me to the hospital. Her husband stayed to watch the kids. And when Eva came home, he just told her that daddy got hurt at the gym, and mom's at the hospital with him, and she finally went to sleep.
00:19:14
Speaker
She's a worry wart, so I'm sure she was a little nervous, but never had anything. My mom did pass away in 2015 of cancer, so she experienced that, but that was still different, and she was still really young at the time. So she went to sleep with nothing to worry about. And then when I got home, at that point, it was probably like
00:19:37
Speaker
before in the morning, I would say. My two neighbors were with me and she was sleeping on the couch and I had to make the decision if I wanted to let her sleep and tell her in the morning or tell her right away. And I made the decision to tell her right away.
00:19:54
Speaker
I can't even tell you how I told her because I don't know how I had the strength to do it, but something just took over. I sat with her and my neighbors, they were like, we'll go home. I was like, absolutely not. You need to stay. They sat there and listened. I think I said something along the lines of,
00:20:14
Speaker
you know, daddy's heart got hurt and it just couldn't start beating again and the doctors tried everything they can do but daddy went to go live with Nani up in heaven and so that's where, you know, that's where he is now and he won't be coming home.
00:20:31
Speaker
I think, initially, she, I mean, obviously there was shock. She kept just like asking like, wait, what? Wait, tell me again. But she is like a little, she's a little rock. Like Bri was definitely a rock and she took after him. So she was quiet. I think she, I mean, she definitely cried, but there wasn't, you know, like how David said, Olive ran off screaming and mad. There was none of that. It was just very much like somber and
00:20:58
Speaker
quiet and she just laid there and hugged me. And then with Emily in the morning, I mean, she was clueless. She had no idea. So really with her, she was just comic relief and just hugging on them all day long after that happened.
00:21:16
Speaker
Did you take them to the funeral? So they did. So we ended up having, we had the wake one night. I did not let them go to that because it was open casket and I just, I didn't want them to be there. But then the next morning we did a closed casket, just quick little ceremony. And they did go to that and they were, once again, most likely,
00:21:42
Speaker
comic relief to many people that were there and that were sad. And they understood, well, Emily didn't, but Eva understood what was going on. And then we actually cremated Bry, but didn't bury him until July. So then we had to go back home again to Buffalo and have that whole ceremony over again where we actually buried him and both girls were there for that.
00:22:10
Speaker
Was that hard, like having then several ceremonies, like redoing it again? So March, he passed away, then July, then doing the ceremony again. Was that hard or was that actually part of your grief journey? Did it allow you to kind of then allow things to sink in?
00:22:29
Speaker
Yeah, it definitely was not easy. I remember dreading it, having to go back and revisit everything again. His parents wanted to make a bigger deal out of it, which I totally understand. It's their son where I wanted to just be done with it. We left the funeral in March and
00:22:49
Speaker
I actually, instead of flying back to Texas, I flew with the girls to Florida.
Finding Joy After Loss
00:22:54
Speaker
I took them to Disney World. One of Bri's mottos was, go big or go home. So I was like, what the heck? We're going to Disney World. And so we went to Disney World. My dad had a condo on the ocean. So we went and stayed in the condo. And we just had a fantastic time. And through efforts of
00:23:12
Speaker
amazing friends. I had a friend from high school give me his timeshare. He donated it. I hadn't talked to him in 20 years and he was like, nope, you're just staying at my timeshare. And then I had another friend from work who called Disney Worlds and was able to get my girls fast passes for the entire day. So it was just, it was much needed to, you know, gallivant off to Florida.
00:23:36
Speaker
But then going back in July, like I said, it was definitely hard I think the hardest part was that I was home for maybe I think it was a week and We were saving the actual burial till the second to last day. I was home So there was a lot of anticipation throughout the week that I was home But it was you know, it was necessary for his parents I've described to Dave when we talk about it that I
00:24:03
Speaker
Like the funeral was not for me. It was for everybody else. Like I said goodbye to Bri at the hospital. That was the end of it for me. And you know, he's in my heart now. And I know the funeral was what other people needed. And along with the, um,
00:24:20
Speaker
you know, the burial in July and whatnot. So, yeah. You raise a very good point, which is the aspect of honoring how different people within the family unit need to deal with their grief journey.
00:24:37
Speaker
That's important because it's respecting what everybody kind of needs for their own process. And for you and the girls, you knew how Brian would have probably done it, which was going to Disneyland. You were just like, let's do this. Let's have a last hurrah type of thing as a little family.
00:25:01
Speaker
And that was your way of honoring his memory and for the others it had to be also just the rituals of the funeral and so forth. So that is wonderful that you were able to honor the ways in which the other family members needed that too.
00:25:22
Speaker
Thank you for sharing that.
Finding Support in Each Other
00:25:24
Speaker
Now, I'm going to bring Dave back in so that you guys can then now share, then how did you two meet then? It both happened in the same year, and how did you guys meet? Sure. Do you want me to start, Dave? Yeah, you're probably better at it than me.
00:25:46
Speaker
Let me just ask this, who will share the juiciest details? I'll be more honest, but they'll probably share more.
00:26:01
Speaker
So we live in an amazing neighborhood in Prosper, Texas. And I was actually unaware, well, not fully unaware, but a little unaware of Dave's story, even though we're in this really tight knit community. But my neighbors were all aware of his story. And we had a community spring Easter egg hunt gathering thing at the commons. And
00:26:30
Speaker
my one neighbor was like you need to meet him not romantically or anything like that but you just need to meet him you guys have so much in common and you could be such a good support for each other and I was like uh maybe like I'm very shy well at least I used to be um and that terrified me the thought of like having somebody introduce me to somebody and
00:26:51
Speaker
I was like, okay, we'll see, whatever. And so we went to this Easter egg hunt thing and I was there with a group of my friends from Toyota and he happened to walk by and I was like, hey, that's him. And then I have no idea what, like I said, I'm shy. I have no idea what pushed me to do this, but we ended up in a group all talking. And then there was this bout of awkward silence where
00:27:19
Speaker
somebody was waiting for somebody to say something next. And, um, I just walked over to Dave and looked right at him and I said something along the lines of like, hi, I'm Liz. I know you just lost your husband, your wife. I just lost my husband and I just want to let you know that I'm here for you. If you need anything, I know you have a daughter. I was probably rambling. Um, you know, cause I, I was definitely nervous and you know, he just looked at me and, um,
00:27:45
Speaker
We, you know, we exchanged numbers and the point of that was because he kept telling me how he had worked with the child life specialist at the hospital and he had all sorts of resources in terms of therapists and things for the girls. And so we exchanged numbers there. And, um, I don't know if there's anything else you want to add to that, Dave? Yeah, I just remember I, I, I was, um, when she told me, I, I, you know, I don't normally hug strangers, but, uh,
00:28:14
Speaker
I put my arm around her and gave her a quick squeeze and, um, I was compelled to, uh, um, to support her and especially her little ones. Um, uh, I guess, uh, because of my role in all of his life, I was very much mom and dad for majority of the time. Um, you know, she was, you know, growing up. So, um,
00:28:44
Speaker
While I may be limited in my vocabulary and the things I say, I'm very emotional when it comes to understanding and I'm very in tune with that. And so, you know, I just, I felt terribly for her and her daughters. And yeah, I was very focused on, you know, trying to help them. You know, I'm a firefighter, so by nature I tend to want to help people as well.
00:29:13
Speaker
Um, so you're very empathetic, like the empathy level, uh, was there and like that being drawn to taking care of others. Like you said, um, I could, you could feel it. And especially when you've gone through something yourself, then it has even more of that empathy because you've lived it, you've lived it. Right. And I felt like I had something I could, I could help her with, you know, being that, like you said, you know, hers was sudden and mine was prolonged.
00:29:43
Speaker
I've had the convenience, if you want to call it, of years of therapy and dealing with these things and understanding a little bit more of what she might be experiencing and going through. And so I thought I could offer some help there, not only for her, but for the little ones.
00:30:06
Speaker
And the funny part is I was unaware to any of that. So in my mind, I'm saying to myself, oh, geez, if I died and I left Brian with two little girls, he wouldn't have a clue on what to be doing. So I'm looking at Dave going like, oh, I can help you. I have girls. You're going to need help. And ironically, he is way better than me at all this stuff.
00:30:28
Speaker
So it's the other way around than what you thought. Yeah. Yeah. Now then, so how did that support then happen? How did you guys then from that first meeting, did you just start texting, kind of giving each other resources? How did that dynamic go? Yeah. I mean, mostly it was me providing resources for her because I had a lot of
00:30:54
Speaker
information from the Child Life Specialist and also some insight on local therapists because, you know, I had Olive, you know, I had tested out a few, so to speak, in the area for Olive. So it was more of that thing. And then also, we, I was really wanted to get the girls together. And I think Liz agreed, would agree to that, that we wanted to get them together, just to
00:31:24
Speaker
especially I think, you know, for Eva and Emmy, um, they had each other, you know, and so they had somebody who understood it kind of in their own way. Um, whereas all of, all of her, none of her friends, you know, like had experienced anything like that. And so I wanted her to see, and also Emmy and Eva to see that, you know, there, there are other kids like them. I didn't want them to feel.
00:31:51
Speaker
um you know unique in that way um and that you know terrible experience and so it's so interesting yeah what you're bringing up is so interesting because i mean that's the whole reason of then organizations like what we're going to talk about also too of how you and i kind of crossed was because i uh just barely was from because then you also started using the services of the the organization that i am a
00:32:18
Speaker
grief facilitator at, but FYI, this was not intention. I had already known Liz prior to me volunteering here. So what I was going to say is that with the adults, a lot of times you think it's a lonely club, right? It's like this lonely club. You're the only one that's experienced it. But the fact that then children, too, they're also going through this. It's a very isolating space, like you said, in school, when they do things like,
00:32:48
Speaker
things for Mother's Day or in Liz's girl's case like things for Father's Day and they do art for this and that and that's really hard to go through those things alone and with kids in your own classroom not understanding what you're going through. So that was great that she created then that bond or wanted to create that bond between the girls so that they could support each other aside from then the two of you also supporting each other.
00:33:16
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I think as parents, and especially when you quickly become a single parent, um, you know, it's hard to, to navigate your own grief because your, your, your primary focus becomes them, you know, and making sure they're okay. And it's, it's kind of odd because, uh, throughout my experiences, I've learned that the kids are very matter of fact.
00:33:41
Speaker
you know, and very much more accepting of whatever occurs compared to us. So, and a lot of that has to do with their brain development, obviously, but, um, yeah, they were, they would say things so matter of factly, you know, like it's just, like you said, you know, going to events, like took all of to a Valentine's day, um, celebration at her pre-K at the time. And it was definitely a big trigger for me, but she,
00:34:10
Speaker
You know, she would, you know, just go to her friends and just randomly tell them, you know, my mom just died and have no emotion about it. It was just, that's what happened. And her friends would be like, Oh, okay. You know, and, and they wouldn't know how to process it. And, you know, obviously for me, it was much harder to hear, but understanding that for her, it was more of just, that's just how kids are. And so.
00:34:37
Speaker
No, thank you. Okay, so then now how did you guys then navigate then the starting to get to know each other and then realizing you guys had the feelings for each other? What point did that kind of start? And how did you let me just put it that I asked very too many leveled questions. So let me start there. Why did you guys start realizing you're having feelings for each other in your process?
Developing New Relationships
00:35:05
Speaker
I think a lot of it, so like Dave said, we would text back and forth. So there was definitely a lot of texting back and forth and just realizing that
00:35:15
Speaker
Not so much that we had so much in common, but it was just so easy to talk to each other and be a support for each other and add a bit of a smile to our faces during such a trying time in our lives. We went to a couple of, you know, lunch, quote unquote, dates, you know, just especially, you know, when the kids were at school and, you know, with Dave's schedule, he's home some days, gone some days. So just really, you know,
00:35:43
Speaker
meeting each other that way. Started to get to the point where it's like I found myself at least excited for the next text message to come in and excited to be able to go out to lunch and things like that. It was just very organic, how it happened. Scary organic. It just was so easy.
00:36:06
Speaker
talking about it. And, you know, I think when you experience something like that in your life, you, you pretty much become more of a, you know, you don't beat around the bush. You're just very open and honest about things. I was already someone who was that way. So it just made me even more so. And we were, you know, talking about it and, and had circumstances been different, we still would have probably, you know, had a relationship together if it wasn't for the events that brought us together. So we, we just, we.
00:36:35
Speaker
uh, compliment one another very well, I believe, you know, and that's, um, so it just, just happened to be that we experienced these things and that's how we met.
00:36:46
Speaker
Yeah, that you met because somebody told you, you should meet that other person because they've gone through something similar. But in reality, there are other levels of commonality that you guys have and your personality. That's just the thing that made you guys meet each other. All the rest of the things are the things that, yeah, to have that support.
00:37:09
Speaker
How then did you navigate that dynamic of still being able and how do you still do that? Because grief, as most of us know or experience, it's kind of in waves and it kind of goes in and it's not necessarily that it ends. So how do you navigate the dynamics of having a relationship and still honoring Brian and Sherry in this process and of course with the girls?
00:37:37
Speaker
Definitely. I mean, it's definitely a process, at least in my mind, that is sometimes so easy and so organic and then also so incredibly difficult. You know, I always say all the time to Dave, I'm like, I sometimes wonder how my brain just doesn't explode because in one second you could be like, I am so happy. This, you know, new little family is just.
00:38:01
Speaker
you know, perfect and everything is going well. But then in the next second I'm missing Brian and you know, sometimes it's like really difficult for your brain or at least my brain to be able to look at Dave and be like, you know, he'll be like, what's wrong? And I'll be like,
00:38:17
Speaker
nothing. And he's not dumb. He knows something's wrong. And sometimes I find it really hard to be able to just be like, I'm sorry, I miss my dead husband. And because you know, you're in a new love, and you're still in love with your, you know, deceased husband, and it's really it's amazing how strong the brain is. That's what I'm learning through all of this. That's, that's something that I just like to add. You know, being someone who experienced the same thing, I get it. And I'm not
00:38:46
Speaker
I don't get jealous about it. I encourage her to, um, you know, explore those emotions and talk to me about them because, you know, I understand and she understands, you know, that we both have very, very much have a strong love for these people still. And always will, we'll always have a place for them and, and, um, they'll always be part of us. And, uh, understanding that, you know, helps us kind of, um, be there for each other even more. So, because I feel like, uh,
00:39:16
Speaker
Like Liz has a friend who experienced a loss of his wife and, um, you know, I don't mean to out him or anything like that. I don't know if it's going to be an issue, but, um, he met somebody who came from a divorce and I know they have a harder time, uh, navigating that those, those emotions that are still there.
00:39:38
Speaker
That is such an interesting point that you bring up because it's true because the other person is still somewhat in the picture, right? In that case, it's a little different here.
00:39:52
Speaker
But I love that you guys are able to still honor and talk about your spouses in that way. And that also must bring a lot of comfort too, to the girls.
Family Adaptation to New Relationships
00:40:07
Speaker
So how then do you talk about the girls?
00:40:11
Speaker
with the girls, sorry, about this relationship. Again, because of their ages, they probably still don't even see it as, do they see it as weird that daddy and mommy are now with some, you know what I mean? How is it? How is it for girls? I mean, I would say, I know we keep using the word organic, but I mean, I would say it was a pretty
00:40:32
Speaker
seamless process You know like initially I Ended up offering to help Dave out with Olive because his in-laws had to travel or something like that And so I prepared a room in my house for her and I made it, you know Loving and warm so she would feel comfortable here and she's just happy-go-lucky. So she's like cool. This works for me and You know my girls I think
00:41:00
Speaker
Eva, my older one, she's very protective of me. She's taken over that rock role that I used to say that Brian was my rock. She put their guards up at times, but she knows I'm happy and she knows that Dave loves her and that this is a good situation for her.
00:41:25
Speaker
I could think of a million different ways how this could have went and it went just beautifully. I mean, everything about this transition into this, you know, I always call it life 2.0, uh, it has just been beautiful. Yeah. We had, initially we had spoke about, you know, before we went ahead and started to cohabitate, uh, about how we wouldn't force things and just kind of take them as I go. And if, um, at any point it became too much, whether it be for.
00:41:55
Speaker
you know, Liz or myself or the girls in any way, we would, you know, pump the brakes. And it just, I mean, um, I, you know, kids are very resilient. Um, humans are very resilient for that matter, but, uh, uh, they just kind of accepted it and, um, they treated it like, Oh, now I have a new sister and kind of, and you know, all of looked at it like now I have two new friends or sisters, you know, and, um,
00:42:23
Speaker
And that's kind of how it went. I mean, we don't, I don't think that it's something that it doesn't seem to come up too often. Um, I know that the girls, when they do bring it up, it tends to be during emotional times. Um, say they're, they're not having a good day or they're having a moment where they're crying and then all of a sudden it'll come up. Um, other than that, um, it's not a topic that.
00:42:49
Speaker
that comes up very often. If anything, it's the girls' courage. I know they encourage me all the time. They keep wondering when we're going to get married.
00:43:02
Speaker
So they're very much the pushers. They're the pushers. It's so funny that you said about when they're having a bad day that maybe that's when it comes up. But that's also like in any dynamic when kids are having a bad day, that's when they say, you don't love me. I'm adopted.
00:43:20
Speaker
you found me on the street, like all these kind of things, you know, those kind of that's the moment in which kids usually say all that kind of stuff. So I'm imagining in this circumstance, it's not much different. They just kind of use maybe this dynamic as a scapegoat in those moments that that they that they're feeling frustrated.
00:43:40
Speaker
I think there's some truth there, but I also feel like, uh, it's also, I think, you know, I think children have a little bit harder time of accessing those feelings. And when they feel those in that moment, that's kind of when that, that feeling then presents itself to them. And then they kind of let it out and, you know, Oh, I like what you say. Yeah. So there it's basically like their grief is showing up sometimes in those moments of frustration or things like that. Is that what you're kind of saying? Like maybe they're frustrated, but it's, they just don't know how to name it.
00:44:10
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Name in the motion. Okay. That is so true. Okay. So let's now talk about what tips would you give somebody then that may be in circumstances similar to what you guys were before meeting each other and navigating.
Advice for the Grieving
00:44:30
Speaker
Again, you guys may not have the answer because this happened organically, but navigating
00:44:35
Speaker
life in getting to know people, like what would you say to somebody that's in, you know, widow or widower? I think the one thing like, you know, pre-Meeting Dave, for me,
00:44:51
Speaker
The biggest thing that helped me was the support system. Like you had said, I didn't have family in the area. My dad did come to town and he actually stayed here for five months, which I was shocked by, because he likes to visit, but five months was out of his comfort zone. And then my neighbors, like when everything first happened, I didn't do a thing. I literally sat in my house and I had people, my door was always open. I had neighbors cleaning out my fridge, vacuuming my floors.
00:45:19
Speaker
packing my suitcase to go home, feeding me breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It was an outstanding, you know, outpour of love to the point where when everything first happened, I was like, I am moving to Buffalo. Like, there is no way that I am staying here. I have no reason to be here. And now I can't imagine leaving because my neighbors that surround my house are my family.
00:45:40
Speaker
So definitely and I'm not one to ask for help. So definitely just accepting help is huge, you know when everything first happens and then you know in terms of
00:45:52
Speaker
putting yourself out there again and meeting new people and whatnot. I joke all the time that I wish every widow could have a dave because it has just made this process that much easier. But like we said, it's so organic in the way that it happened. But really surrounding yourself with people that are in a similar situation
00:46:15
Speaker
I know, like you said, we joined a journey of hope and I also have a couple of other widow friends that I can reach out to and they're on all different capacities. So I have one friend that he actually lost his wife the day before Brian died and he's local.
00:46:36
Speaker
also a sudden death. So in the beginning, I was reaching out to him all the time because he absolutely, 100% understood every feeling I was feeling in almost real time. So really just finding people that work for you in terms of your healing and your grief is what has helped me along the way.
00:46:58
Speaker
So two things that came up from what you just said. One is accepting help. That is huge. So if you're not a type of person, which I'm similar to you, I'm not the type of person that would ask for help. But accepting help during that time, that was key. And the aspect of making sure to surround yourself with
00:47:18
Speaker
people that support you. And that in this case, because you didn't have your family nearby, all your friends became that, at least that immediate support here. Now, that's awesome. Thank you. Now, Dave, what about for you? What were like some of those key tools kind of that you were, that just similar to what Liz just shared? What would you say would be some tips from you?
00:47:46
Speaker
Yeah, so I would definitely, um, reiterate what you said about, uh, letting people do things for you. Uh, I also do not like help. Um, however, um, I discovered that that's pretty much the only thing that helps others, uh, feel like they're doing something for you. And, um, then you get a lot less of the questions of like the, the awkward questions from them. If you just let them do some, some stuff, you know, that's.
00:48:17
Speaker
nothing serious just whatever it may be little things and People jump it at the opportunity to do that for you and it definitely helps them Feel like they're doing something for you For me, I Mean I've had a lot of experience with trauma and life in my in my past before this so I
00:48:43
Speaker
you know, very, very much believe in therapy and being open and honest about things. Um, along with that, I think moving forward with, you know, trying to, um, I mean, I don't want to say find somebody else, but if you happen to, um, moving forward with your life, um, I would recommend that, you know, people, it's very, it's easier said than done, but not to judge yourself, um, too harshly because.
00:49:14
Speaker
Um, there's a lot of people out there with opinions and, um, you know, valid as they may be for them. Um, you know, the, the important thing is to know and understand is that you yourself and your family are going through this thing. Only you understand what works for you and your family. And, um, kind of finding that is really one of the more important things in my opinion. Um, and, and not, not.
00:49:42
Speaker
try not to concern yourself too much with how others may view things or, or what, how they might feel about things because again, they're not going through it. They, you know, they, they're experiencing it in their own way. Whereas, you know, you're living it and, and, you know, that's all the difference to me.
00:50:02
Speaker
Yeah, that was that was definitely a big thing for me in the beginning too, of just because I mean, Dave and I met relatively soon after everything had happened in our lives. And I was very aware of
00:50:15
Speaker
what if people were judging me in terms of, wow, she moved on too fast, or wow, she must be in such shock that she's just going after the first guy that says hello to her. It definitely ripped me apart for a long time, and I got to the point where I finally just realized that
00:50:34
Speaker
If somebody truly loves me and cares about me and cares about my happiness, then they just need to trust me that I am doing the best thing for me and my family and just trust the process, which is another thing that I used to say all the time. Trust the process. We make mistakes along the way. That's going to happen. It's part of life. That's part of learning. But I think if you go into it with the idea that
00:51:05
Speaker
you know, without forcing things and taking things as they come, it's much easier to move forward than it is if you hyper focus on one thing or another.
00:51:18
Speaker
What you guys have said is just so wise. It's so wise and thank you so much for sharing that because it's so true. We sometimes stop ourselves and not just in the aspect of grief, but just in many areas of our life, we worry so much of what people are going to think about the choices we make. We close a lot of doors because of that, of basically,
00:51:45
Speaker
making other people's opinions about our life and our choices way more than our own instinct. And what you guys shared is so amazingly valuable for many, many
Balancing Love for Past & Present
00:52:00
Speaker
reasons. So thank you. And love is so wide. I always think of this. I remember when we were expecting our second child, and I was like, oh my gosh, how could I love somebody as much as I already love
00:52:14
Speaker
my son, you know, and it's like, no, it doesn't take away from me. You know, love is not like, oh, now you're adding something else. Like you suddenly can't love, you know, your first child that much or you still love. It's the same in this dynamic. It doesn't take away from the love that both of you have for your spouses, you know, and it's just adding to it. It's even making it more rich.
00:52:40
Speaker
Yeah. That's another thing that I always say is that I'm not moving on. Um, you know, I've been very clear on that from the beginning that there's no way I'm moving on. I'm just moving forward. I'm moving forward with my life and Brian will always be carried with me into life 2.0.
00:52:57
Speaker
Through the girls and through the memories that we had and I'm excited to bring him with me and I'm excited to you know move forward and Enjoy my life because it is 100% what he would want me to do And you know a crazy thing that he used to say I don't know why I used to get so mad at him He used to say if anything ever happens to me You're gonna find somebody in two months and you're gonna be happier than ever
00:53:21
Speaker
And then I would usually smack them and be like, stop talking like that. You have two girls, like nothing's going to happen to you. You're healthy. And then I mean, crazy and as made up as this sounds, I basically met Dave two months to the day that Brian died. And so to me, I was like, oh boy, you know, this, this says something.
00:53:40
Speaker
Yeah, actually can we talk about that aspect of, because I know like with you Liz of our exchanges on Facebook Messenger of our conversations kind of through there knowing that certain things are just absolutely divinely and we've used that word a few times and then we would make fun because Dave's last name is divine, right?
Spiritual Beliefs and Guidance
00:54:03
Speaker
So we're like, some of these things are divinely kind of orchestrated. Can we please,
00:54:08
Speaker
talk, go there and talk about your guys's feelings in terms of the spiritual component of all these dynamics that have occurred in your life.
00:54:18
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, I'll be upfront and honest that, you know, I grew up Catholic and used to go to church all the time. And once Bri died, I lost all faith in any sort of faith. And I'm still not back there yet. However, when things like this happen, like Brian has said multiple times, within two months, you're going to find somebody. And then all of a sudden, you know, two months later, here's this person that literally I joke that I feel like my mom and Brian got together and we're like, oh, crap.
00:54:46
Speaker
that wasn't supposed to happen. Now we have to find somebody really good for Liz and drop Dave into my life. And so it's hard for me not to say I don't believe in anything, but there's definitely something to be said about the way that this has all worked out.
00:55:04
Speaker
And what about you, Dave? What about for you in terms of your beliefs in your life, your spiritual beliefs or background? And spirituality doesn't necessarily have to be with religion necessarily, but if do you see any input that maybe Sherry has even had in this whole dynamic of your life? That's kind of a different situation for me. Sherry was very much
00:55:33
Speaker
Um, like, you know, throughout the process, we had a lot of friends who were going through cancer treatment as well. And she lost a lot of friends in the process. And I remember on one particular occasion, there was a couple who, um, the wife, it was, you know, the cancer and, um, she was actively searching for a, uh, a fill-in essentially for her when she died because she knew she was going to.
00:56:03
Speaker
And, um, you know, she found somebody and her best friend and they ended up, you know, her best friend and, and her husband ended up getting married. I think within a year after, um, Ashley had passed. And so, um, Sherry had very strong feelings about that. And I think for her, it was different because she, she didn't, I think she didn't want to feel forgotten. Um,
00:56:34
Speaker
And so for her, it was like that. But I always think back to those times and how much she loved me and how she would want us
00:56:48
Speaker
to be happy because I think any spouse wants that further, the person they love and closing yourself off to the idea of, of loving again, um, is not, you know, in my opinion, how, how you live a happy life. Um, I, I kind of wanted to bring that up when we were talking about, you know, other people's feelings and moving forward. And, and that's another aspect I think is, is allowing yourself to go down that scary road again of, uh,
00:57:17
Speaker
of allowing yourself to feel, you know, love for someone else again, because it can be very scary throughout the process to open yourself up to that potential hurt again. But having said that, I kind of just I, you know, I was I was raised Christian. However, you know, through my life experiences, I kind of got away from organized religion in that sense, but I
00:57:45
Speaker
kind of believe more is if I have a spirituality, it's more of a natural one. And, and, you know, just kind of take things as they come. And that kind of that kind of thing. So it happened with Liz and I was just, you know, again, I, while I was scared, I didn't want to shut myself off to it, because I felt like for whatever reason, this was being presented to me, and I had to explore it, you know, so
00:58:13
Speaker
I love it. Thank you for both of you for being so transparent about your backgrounds. And again, just it goes back again to everybody interpreting things differently because I come from that like I'm the type of person that everything's like a sign that's me. So I'm looking at your relationship and being like, oh my gosh, like that's so divinely orchestrated. Like that was my perspective and I didn't mean to project
00:58:34
Speaker
my perspective here on you guys is, but I'm so grateful that you each expressed your perspectives in terms of how things navigated. And Dave, when you pointed out how Sherry used to be not necessarily
00:58:50
Speaker
wanting to be replaced, like you said, I feel that a lot of times too, when we're still living, that component of the ego part of us is still there, that I feel in my perspective that when
00:59:07
Speaker
We die like the ego is no longer there. So that aspect of attachment to something no longer exists. So whatever we would have thought as individuals here, like, no, you're going to love me forever. You're never going to move, you know, those kind of things like, you know, move on. You're never going to have somebody else. Those and I'm not I'm not trying to say that those are the words she said at all. I'm just kind of saying that then that doesn't really matter anymore. Right. Once once there's no ego.
00:59:37
Speaker
Yeah, understanding I think for me was that, you know, she was scared. And so, you know, and I understand completely where she was at, at that time when that happened. But I too, also knew how deep her love was for me, you know, and, and, and Brian's for Liz and all that, like, we would, we would only want the best for
01:00:04
Speaker
Our loved ones, once, you know, once we can no longer be here for them physically, like how, you know, how do you serve that? Right. You know, and so, and, uh, yeah, so, and that, and that's, you know, understanding that we're not forgotten. We're, we're always there that, I mean, every time I look at the girls, I see, you know, I see Brian and hers and I see Sherry and mine and, um, it every day, you know, it's a reminder. So.
01:00:31
Speaker
Um, and, and there's some beauty in that, you know, it hurts sometimes, but also other times it's, it's comforting to know that those they're, they're here with us still, you know, in, in one aspect. So, Oh, so beautiful. Thank you. Is there anything else either of you wanted to share that maybe I didn't ask, um, that you'd still want to share with the audience?
01:00:59
Speaker
She's quiet all of a sudden. I'm thinking. No, I mean, I think you definitely touched upon a lot of things. I think like when I was, you know, because I'm totally type A and I was trying to prep for this conversation, even though I didn't have an agenda and I wanted an agenda and all this stuff. I was like, no, I don't create any questions. I'm like, I need a syllabus.
01:01:24
Speaker
But anyways, when I was looking through different grief stuff, I mean, I now have, I'm the proud owner of an entire bookshelf of self-help grief books because I'm always the type that if there's an issue, I grab a book and I'm like, oh, the book will fix it. So I've read tons and tons of books and that's definitely helpful for me. But one thing that really stood out to me as I was prepping for this was that there was this quote I found that said that grief is like glitter.
01:01:52
Speaker
And you know how much parents hate glitter because it gets everywhere. But, you know, grief is like glitter. So you can throw a handful of it into the air. But when you try to clean it all up, you're never going to get it all. So even long after the event, you're still going to find glitter tucked into corners.
01:02:08
Speaker
And it'll always be there somewhere. And when I read that, I thought about that and I was like, you know what, I'm okay with that. Like I'm okay with the grief. I don't want the grief to go away. It is a pain in the butt and it, you know, they described as, you know, waves and you ride the wave and all of that. And I have my ups and downs on a daily basis, usually multiple times a day.
01:02:28
Speaker
what I've learned from my reading and researching and all of that is in processing is just really that grief is just it's love and it's a piece of love and you know where there's deep grief there's always going to be love and I don't want that glitter to go away I want to be able to just
01:02:46
Speaker
you know, find the glitter and smile when I see the glitter, so to say. I'm like loving that. That's the first time I hear that description. And I'm so like writing it down. I love that because the waves I feel the same. I feel it's like like a roller coaster, you know, you know, all these kind of different analogies, but I had never heard the glitter. And I'm just like thinking of it like,
01:03:11
Speaker
it's so true. And when you have girls, you know that there's glitter a lot of places, right? Like, because I have a daughter as well. And I just remember like, Oh, I'm so annoyed, or getting a card in the, you know, like, I had glitter and I'm like, Oh my gosh, and then I'm still finding little pieces of it. Oh, this it's like,
01:03:29
Speaker
Perfect analogy. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for navigating the non-scripted interview here, Liz, for your Type A personality. I keep telling Dave that I always tell him, I swear, I was not Type A before I met you. This is all part of me trying to control the situation. And he keeps saying, no, I'm pretty sure you were like this before, and you just didn't realize it.
01:03:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, you probably had not noticed it. Maybe you notice it now more because of the aspect of like control, like certain things we either, you know, big things happen in your life that you could had no control over. So maybe now you may notice more the things that you are trying to control.
01:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's definitely a part of it. And I think that, you know, when, when Bri was here, he was definitely a workhorse, the go-getter, you know, it was very work focused. And so I did a lot that I didn't even realize I was doing and that I was in charge of. And now that he's gone, it's even more apparent of, you know, everything that I do and have to do and have to handle. And it's just, it's all coming out now that I'm a total type A control freak.
01:04:38
Speaker
Well, I love that Dave just said, no, you were just like that before. Well, it's been such an honor chatting with you both and getting to know you at this level. And I feel that when you have these kinds of conversations with somebody, you really get to know them. Again, I've only walked by you, Dave. I don't think I ever even said,
01:05:02
Speaker
Hi, because I didn't know who you were when I ran into you at the Journey of Hope. But I'm so grateful to have gotten to know you both and all the wisdom that you both shared, not only to the audience, but just even for myself. So thank you once again. Thank you for the opportunity. Yeah, definitely. Thank you for having us. We're, you know, we're, at least I am. I love sharing our story and I'm, you know, happy to help other people.
01:05:28
Speaker
Yeah, to that, I'd say, you know, I have a long drive into work. And so podcasts, especially on grief, have helped me tremendously, just kind of be by myself and figure things out. And I understand how important these podcasts can be for other people who are experiencing something, yet they might not have the words to, you know, say to somebody else or express it or
01:05:55
Speaker
or even feel comfortable doing it around other people, this definitely serves a purpose. So thank you for allowing us to go ahead.
01:06:06
Speaker
No, no, no, sorry, go ahead. One other tool, one other tool for people and their grief journey. Definitely. No, and thank you because again, it's all these different varieties and diversity of stories that somebody else would then listen to and find that relatability and learn from that too in their own life. So I really, really, really appreciate the time you both took. And I know Dave, you just had come back from a long shift from work and you haven't, did you get to sleep?
01:06:36
Speaker
before you popped on the call. He's already worked out. He's a go-getter. Well, awesome. Well, thank you again. Thank you.
01:06:53
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:07:21
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.