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120. Practicing Radical Acceptance- with Caitlin Billings
72 Plays3 years ago
Caitlin Billings knows the struggles of balancing work, mental health, and motherhood better than most – while accepting her own bipolar diagnosis, she had to learn how best to support her gender-fluid child, who inherited depressive behaviors, as well as pursue an allegation of child sexual assault in their home.
In her work as a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and role as a mother, she felt tremendous pressure to be perfect and present stability. Though she overcame abandonment issues and an eating disorder in college, a hold-up at gunpoint broke her carefully balanced world apart, forcing her to seek help. Now Caitlin is speaking out about the deep-set need for perfection throughout society, especially on teens and mental health professionals, until people understand that your best is good enough and you are never alone.
Please let me know if I can connect you with Caitlin! I'd love to set up an interview or send you an advance copy of her memoir, In Our Blood (July 2022).
Part coming-of-age, part reckoning of motherhood, In Our Blood is a therapist’s honest account of professional and personal struggles and an intergenerational story of acceptance, self-love and fluidity.
Get in touch with Caitlin Billings: https://www.caitlinbillings.com/
Get in touch with Kendra Rinaldi: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Grief and Transitions
00:00:00
Speaker
I feel like it's always a work in progress and the things that I do when I'm in a good space, when I am in balance, are going to be so essential when I'm not because that's going to be the time where I'm going to be like,
00:00:13
Speaker
I'm going to be grasping. I'm going to be fighting reality, you know, and then there's going to be that small voice in the back of my head that's like, wait, wait, you know, radical acceptance. Maybe you're not there right now, but we're going to kind of just keep thinking about that, you know, giving myself hope that I will have a life worth living. Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:43
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:00:59
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
Meet Caitlin Billings
00:01:22
Speaker
You are all in for an amazing interview today with Caitlin Billings. Caitlin is a licensed clinical social worker in the state of California. Caitlin specializes in deep trauma therapy and is pursuing EMDR therapy certification. And she is now an author of the book,
00:01:42
Speaker
in our blood. So we're really excited to be talking about this book and here's a memoir. So we get to learn a lot about memory about Caitlin in her memoir. I know I did. And we'll get to learn more about you here. So welcome, Caitlin. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. This podcast I've been really looking forward to. It is definitely one that's going to relate. We were talking just before I've been
00:02:12
Speaker
is starting the interview, that a lot of people will relate to different aspects of your story in different ways because you've definitely had quite a dense, dense life in a very short amount of years. You're a young mom of two therapists and you've been through so much.
00:02:29
Speaker
I'm just happy that you are here and you agreed to share your story a little bit here. So tell us first a little bit about you. Where are you? Where did you live? Where did you grow up? And then we'll dive into the conversation.
The Journey of Writing a Memoir
00:02:42
Speaker
Yeah. So I live in the San Francisco Bay area and I grew up in Humboldt County.
00:02:50
Speaker
which is very north, very northern California. It's the land of redwoods and mist and fog. And that really shaped me. Yeah, I was very exposed to nature and the elements and San Francisco was like a big city. And so it's interesting to live here now, although I live in a very small town.
00:03:14
Speaker
Um, yeah, and I'm a therapist. I am an author and I'm really working toward blending together my work as a therapist as well as my, my writing life so that the two, while they are two entities, they're also connected.
00:03:31
Speaker
And then aside from that, then also this other big part of your life being a mother, of course, of two. So how do you blend therapy, author, and parenthood, all of that. And how long did it take you to write your memoir?
00:03:48
Speaker
It's been about 10 years in the making, but I would say it's really been the last five years, four years that I've really pursued having it published. That first six years was really a lot of writing groups.
00:04:06
Speaker
critiquing other people's chapters, they critiqued mine. I went through a process of learning how to write a memoir. So I did it backwards. I wrote it and then I learned about it and I was like, oh crap, I have to rewrite this because now I understand. So that was a big part of it. And then as I was writing the memoir, life just kept happening. So part one of my memoir was actually supposed to originally be the memoir.
00:04:36
Speaker
And then part two is everything that happened while I was writing it. So that's kind of why it took so long. And it is. It's like what we were talking about. It's like a very dense story. And I was telling you that I had to actually put it down for a little bit because it was so much. And for someone reading this,
00:04:56
Speaker
This is something that you will be able to relate in different aspects of it in some shape or form. For me, of course, that aspect of even motherhood, I could relate in that chapter of your life there. But yeah, but just be prepared to know that you might have to also take some
00:05:19
Speaker
some breaks because if it's something there that relates to your own life, which I'm sure there are a lot that will find that, you'll have to also have grace for yourself and be okay to put it down for a minute to then take on. So how did you have grace with yourself as you were writing this? And we'll talk a little bit more, of course, about your life snippets so that people still read the memoir.
00:05:46
Speaker
Yeah, how did you have grace with yourself as you're writing this as you're uncovering all these different layers of your life as you're writing?
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah, well, I was in therapy the entire time that I was writing the book. And my therapist really helped me. She would actually read some of the drafts that I wrote, like small drafts. And then we would break it down in therapy. So a lot of the exploring that I did of my early life was simultaneously done with therapy. And then I learned I had to take breaks.
00:06:22
Speaker
A lot of the writing in the first few years could at times had a very feverish, obsessive kind of quality to it that has, I think, to do with my mental health condition. Where you were. Yeah, and so I think I learned to give myself grace. I learned that actually if I'm starting to feel very obsessive about it, it's time to put it away for a little while.
Managing Bipolar Disorder and Mental Health
00:06:47
Speaker
So, you know, my journey has really been about balance. It's been about self-acceptance. And I think that's one of the pieces, right? Is like, if I'm obsessing over something, I'm probably not in the present moment. I'm probably not very balanced. And I may not be attending to myself as a person who has needs.
00:07:11
Speaker
So let's go into that. What then do you do to then realize, and we'll talk about the aspect of you being diagnosed with bipolar disorder when you were already a therapist, correct? Yes. So we, can you please go into some of these tools that you use then when you start noticing yourself as a therapist, wait a minute, I'm kind of getting out of whack as you know, I'm kind of going out of whack. How do you then rebalance yourself?
00:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, that is a really good question. And it's something that I think is going to be a lifelong focus for me. So in the past, balance was really, really tough for me to achieve and resulted in kind of multiple, both what is considered a hypomanic episode, which is kind of a smaller mania. It's not the, you know, it's I wasn't hallucinating. I wasn't
00:08:06
Speaker
thinking that I was, you know, Mary. I wasn't having religious preoccupation. But I was, I do tend to take on a lot. Like when I'm feeling good, I have a lot of ideas and they all seem to fit together and I generate things very quickly.
00:08:28
Speaker
So what happens though is that I do that and then I don't attend to myself and then I crash. And really it's the depressive episodes that are the most problematic for me. If I could be hypomanic all the time, I would totally hang out there. Yeah, but how do you sustain being hypomanic, right? All the time, right? Because it's like the body's going to have to give at some point, right? Totally, yeah. Yeah, so I've learned, you know,
00:08:57
Speaker
As I've grown as a therapist, I really believe that if I'm going to be supporting someone or offering interventions or sitting with them through their process, I have to walk the walk. Like I can't go in and be like, you should use your five senses and be in the moment and take a walk. And then I go home and I take a three hour nap and
00:09:19
Speaker
I'm depressed and feeling like I can't go on. To me, that doesn't feel healthy. A lot of what I do with my clients, I'm also doing for myself. I actually happen to work with clients who have some similar aspects to
00:09:39
Speaker
my own mental health journey. And I think that it's really appropriate because I'm not intimidated or scared when they're telling me about these really dark things that they're thinking about. In fact, I feel very grounded. I feel very able to be present. And to answer your question, so exercise is very important.
00:10:04
Speaker
I can have grandiose ideas about, you know, I'm going to go and I'm going to do whatever. Bite sizes, bite sizes, bite sizes. So I'm really, I'm, I'm taking it. Yeah. Bite sizes of like listening to my body. First of all, what does my body need today? Oh, maybe it just needs like 20 minutes of yoga. Like that's, that's really where I'm at today. And that's a practice that I've recently discovered, which is very contemplative and slow and internal.
00:10:34
Speaker
kind of meditative. And then there's other days where I can feel that I really need cardio. I need to take a walk and I live in a town that has like enormous hills. So it's very cardio walk. It's not just a stroll. And strength because if you're going up hills, you're doing some good leg workout.
00:10:51
Speaker
Yeah, and then also just practicing radical acceptance. That's something I talk to my clients about a lot. And it really fits in with grief, because in order to move through grief, you have to get into
00:11:10
Speaker
reality. And in grief, that's part of it is we fight the reality of what has happened. We bargain. We deny that it's happened. We say it's not fair. We get caught up in the horrible parts of what has happened, but we can't move forward because we're trying to push it away. So
00:11:35
Speaker
For me, I probably talk to myself about radical acceptance every day, at least once a day, either because I'm talking to a client about it, or I'm in a space where I'm like, oh, yeah, I feel a little overwhelmed right now. Or, oh, yeah, I had a really intense interaction with somebody, and I can feel my stuff come up.
00:11:54
Speaker
And some of that is just human. And some of that is related to my own trauma. So I have to make space for that. Otherwise, it just accumulates. And then it contributes to my mental health conditions. So it's very, very important that I practice radical acceptance. I do a lot of mindfulness work in a way that is not like I don't sit down and meditate. But mindfulness is just throughout my day. And I do take.
00:12:24
Speaker
I'll take like a two minute, just sit in my chair in my office and breathe. Or when I come home, I'll just kind of sit on my bed and like, okay, ground and center. Being present. Being present. Being present with my family. Or if I can't, like, if I'm like, uh, I need something, I'll take a shower because like the water is very soothing and cleansing to kind of just metaphorically wash the ick off. Um,
00:12:53
Speaker
But it's a work in progress. I'm also in a space right now where there's not a lot of grief in my life. There's actually a lot of openness and fluidity and excitement. But I know it will come because that's part of being human. We are going to suffer. And the longer we are alive, the more suffering we will encounter because
00:13:16
Speaker
we will start to lose people we will you know things happen we don't live in a protective bubble um so i i feel like it's always a work in progress and the things that i do when i'm in a good space when i am in balance are going to be so essential when i'm not because that's going to be the time where i'm going to be like
00:13:39
Speaker
I'm going to be grasping. I'm going to be fighting reality. And then there's going to be that small voice in the back of my head that's like, wait, wait, radical acceptance. Maybe you're not there right now, but we're going to kind of just keep thinking about that, giving myself hope that I will have a life worth living.
00:13:58
Speaker
What you said is so important because you mentioned about the parts of when you're in a good space. That's when you do actually most of the work so that when you are in those moments of really losing, you know, grip with life, like you said, like you barely, like how are you going to feel like you want to go on a walk when you're like barely even getting out of bed, right? Those moments in our life that we go through in this,
00:14:25
Speaker
But because we've done all these other things beforehand, when we are, quote unquote, in that balanced state or kind of stable state, because balance, I don't know if it really does exist. Totally. Yeah, it's a buzzword. Yes, it's a buzzword, but really does it. There's really, something gives or takes really almost always. Yes.
00:14:50
Speaker
But in those states in which we're more in that stable state or when there may be not or is not that much grief, like you said, in this particular moment of life, that's when you're like, okay, I'm preparing, I'm gathering all these tools so that when I go camping, I'm prepared for which, you know, you know, the start of fluid that this that that like, you're just gathering the tools in those moments of
00:15:14
Speaker
that you're gonna need them. And like you said, you have these little voices then in your head that are there in that background because you've already prepared yourself for that. And it's your own voices telling you, okay, you got this, you got this. Just breathe today, that's all you need. And so that's awesome. Thank you for those tips. Oops, I'm kicking the microphone. And if you don't have it, yeah, it's okay. Yes, and if you don't, yeah. You're going to be okay and it's okay to feel
00:15:43
Speaker
all the feelings and all the feelings and you know that something that I want to touch in now is the part of you of your discovery of your diagnosis. How did that come about? We were talking about how grief really that you had experienced early on in your life.
00:16:03
Speaker
and trauma kind of just resurfaced later on in your life. Could we talk a little bit about that, please? And then of your diagnosis and how you coped even for that reality, being a therapist yourself. Yeah. So yeah, I did grow up with some various traumas. I think we all, nobody grew up perfectly, right? So we all have trauma from childhood.
00:16:27
Speaker
And my particular trauma kind of set the stage. I had a lot of feelings of abandonment and that kind of predicted some of the situations that I got into as a young adult that
00:16:45
Speaker
that were more difficult for me to handle. I was diagnosed with clinical depression when I was 18. And it was the first time in my life that I think I experienced a true depressive episode that resulted as well in an eating disorder.
Life Events and Mental Health Challenges
00:17:04
Speaker
So those were kind of two things that happened in my late teens, early twenties.
00:17:11
Speaker
However, the way I dealt with it, which is I think it was incredible, is I was pursuing like sociology, psychology in college, and then I realized I was taking a dance class and I was like, if I'm going to survive my life, I have to do, I have to move. I have to do dance. I wasn't a dancer. I had no like,
00:17:33
Speaker
I had no traditional training. Really? When I was reading that in your bio, I just assumed that maybe that that's the reason you went into movement kind of therapy, because maybe you had had, but not? No. So it was a very holistic dance program. We focused a lot on somatics, on the body, on, you know,
00:17:55
Speaker
all the yeah so much and part of the curriculum was that we created dances and we created dances about significant universal events that happened to us and so I did that for four years and I felt great by the end of that like I graduated from college I really started to feel like myself again yes things had changed like I was still carrying some of the eating disorder behavior that that really didn't abate for a long time but
00:18:24
Speaker
I was much more stable. And I moved back to California and met my husband. We had two kids, kind of in a whirlwind. It was also around 9-11, so things just were really chaotic. It felt like the world was ending. We were like, we've got to get married and maybe have a baby, which is a really weird response.
00:18:43
Speaker
We were very young. Isn't that what a lot of times people did right before they went to the war? A lot of narratives right before they went. And let's get ready before I leave. And I need to leave a legacy before I leave this world. Yes. And so things went really well. I went to graduate school. He got a teaching credential. We moved back to the San Francisco Bay Area. And we started our careers. And we had these two little kids. And life was going really well.
00:19:12
Speaker
And I started my therapy career and I had an incident where I was held up at gunpoint very unexpectedly. It was sort of like I was chasing my dog in the dark. He ran out of the house and
00:19:27
Speaker
I chased him quite a ways into a neighborhood that was unsafe and I was almost back to my house and I just felt like okay there's something behind me like I just you know that intuition that feeling that you have and I turned around and it was a person with a gun pointing it at me and I was very confused and it was just like this moment of like you're doing one thing
00:19:53
Speaker
And you think you're in one reality and then in an instant everything changes, like everything. And so suddenly my life was literally right there in front of me and that it could be eliminated at any second. And so
00:20:13
Speaker
Anyway, what ended up happening is that I kind of caught a moment where the person's attention was not on me, and I took that opportunity to run. And fortunately, they didn't pursue us. I think they probably ran. And nobody was hurt. My dog wasn't hurt. I wasn't hurt. We both came home. Dog ran after me.
00:20:37
Speaker
But what's happening? I was hoping he'd never escaped again after that. I was like, gosh, that is traumatic. Yeah. Right, right. And that is an intense part of the book. And I do share that in that, yeah, I'm giving a lot of details, but I think it's important to understand even these things that many people go through, like many people are mugged or many people encounter gun violence, that it is so traumatic or can be.
00:21:04
Speaker
And so for me, because I had this trauma, my past trauma, and then I also had this history of depression, it set off this cascade of symptoms. And suddenly I felt like I was back in my late teens when some significant traumas had happened. And suddenly,
00:21:23
Speaker
I basically was falling apart from PTSD symptoms and what felt like depression, but it felt even darker and bigger than that. So I was put on an antidepressant and basically had a breakdown because the medication wasn't appropriate for me, but nobody knew that. And ended up being hospitalized and then received a kind of preliminary bipolar diagnosis, which was then kind of, yeah.
00:21:51
Speaker
they kept giving it to me. What you said right now is so important because a lot of times people, I've known people that have gone to medication, have had a diagnosis, let's say like depression or anxiety, have been given medication for that.
00:22:10
Speaker
but then end up discovering they are is bipolar. So then all the time, the medication that was being used for this part of the bipolar was just not the right thing. And a lot of times people just give up because they just, you know, think that there's no hope. But the reality is you kind of have to keep on
00:22:32
Speaker
searching to figure out one, what is the right diagnosis, right? And two, what is the right medication or therapy or whatever treatment for that diagnosis, correct?
Stigma and Professional Impacts in Mental Health
00:22:44
Speaker
Correct. Yeah. And I think what I would say now looking back is that, and I would say this to anybody listening, is that
00:22:52
Speaker
If you begin to have very concerning symptoms or symptoms that concern you when you start a medication, reach out to your doctor or psychiatrist immediately. And what happened to me is I did start having very concerning symptoms. I started to have suicidal ideation, which I had never had before. And it would just kind of pop into my mind. It wasn't even like I was ruminating and feeling depressed and then got there. It was literally like I would be fine one minute and the next minute I'm planning.
00:23:21
Speaker
my suicide. It was bizarre. And also my moods were all over the place. But because I'm a, you know, I had this idea of like, I have to have it together. I'm a therapist. I'm a mom. I, you know, I'm successful. Like, I should not be having these symptoms. And so I just kept
00:23:40
Speaker
minimizing them, being like, OK, whatever, I can get through this. I'll just put that to the side. It's OK. And it just got worse and worse until, yeah, it got so bad that I ended up trying to harm myself. So for you, do you believe that the fact that you were a therapist, that you felt like you had to have it together because of what you did for a living,
00:24:06
Speaker
that it was better to just kind of put it, have denial about the reality of your situation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I encounter a lot of health professionals, mental health, yes, but even other health professionals who say a similar thing to me, which is that they feel like they, you know, like
00:24:30
Speaker
I shouldn't even be in therapy. I have all these tools. I have all these skills. Why am I here? I shouldn't need to be here. And so there's this extra shame that we as helpers can really feel. Mental health professionals, especially as mental health professionals. Yeah. I can see that because, but at the same time, then you think, doesn't a doctor end up getting sick at some point and end up having to go and get looked at for a wound or for something? It's not like all of a sudden,
00:24:59
Speaker
a medical doctor like, you know, would also need to go seek help for their own physical health needs. Why is it that there's such a stigma about then the mental health professionals may be needing also therapy, right? Like it's not much different, right?
00:25:18
Speaker
Right, right. And I think that part of it is historical. You know, psychology in its roots began was was very, in my opinion, was not a feminist practice. It was very patriarchal. It was very folk. I mean, a lot of Freud's work, for example, was focused on young women.
00:25:42
Speaker
and the kind of diagnosis of hysteria. And what does that mean? And ultimately, as we've moved through the years and through people practicing psychology, and I actually have a degree in social work, bringing those two together, now we're really beginning to understand. It's not like somebody
00:26:04
Speaker
has a moral or ethical issue, and that's why they have mental health problems. If they would just get it together, they just need to work harder. And that's a message that I think many people, many professionals in our society get. And so, yeah, there is a stigma attached to mental health, and especially to substance use.
00:26:29
Speaker
I think depression and anxiety are becoming more mainstream. That's sort of more accepted. Like you say, I have depression, you know, celebrities are coming out as depressed, anxious, and there's not as much of a stigma as there used to be. However, we still struggle, I think, with people who are using substances.
00:26:48
Speaker
And there is hard science and so much science now about the neurochemistry of that disease and that literally your brain changes. And it's not that you're not tough enough or you're not moral enough to stop. It's truly something happening in the brain just as a bipolar or schizophrenia or PTSD or other diagnoses are as well.
00:27:14
Speaker
Yes. Oh, thank you for saying that because yeah, you're right. There's so much judgment right around all these different mental
00:27:27
Speaker
What do you say? Mental disorders? Mental illness? Mental health issues? Mental health? Is that the right word? Yeah, I usually say mental health condition. Condition, thank you. Yeah, because condition is a change. Yes, thank you. Yeah, because sometimes when there's like, yeah, we say, yeah, that's what I wanted to check. Like there's nowadays, of course, and this is something we can also dive into now, that aspect of
00:27:50
Speaker
words and titles and so forth and how one little thing can completely come off the wrong way, like me saying mental disorder. So with that, let's then jump into section two of your book, part two, which is now earlier on in your, now closer, now in time when you wrote the book, of other things that then started
00:28:15
Speaker
to come up in life, which it was you being able to help your child in their own issues and processes of their own identity as well as their own identity.
00:28:32
Speaker
also mental conditions at that moment. So let's talk about a little bit about that, please. Yeah. So in part two, I had stabilized quite a bit. And I was getting stable around the time that my daughter, then daughter,
00:28:53
Speaker
was entering adolescence, starting puberty. And in this interesting simultaneous choreography, I was getting better, and she started really struggling. And so she was in seventh grade. She was 12 years old, and she started restricting her food. And that was the first time I found out that there were problems going on that I wasn't even aware of.
00:29:20
Speaker
And it wasn't because I mean, I think I thought I was just like preoccupied by life and not paying attention. But looking back there, she covered it up, you know, she wasn't very forthcoming. And so we I took that on and we dealt with that and got her into therapy and things got better.
00:29:38
Speaker
And then I got called to the school by the school counselor to find out that my daughter had been self-harming and really was disclosing concerning thoughts. And so she ultimately was assessed in the emergency room for a 5150 and was 5150 to the psychiatric hospital.
00:29:58
Speaker
And so we were working through that. We were working through that. She came home. And things just were really difficult. And I think I struggled with a lot of like self-doubt and shame. Like, how is this my fault? You know, where is this my fault? Because I feel like it is my fault. Either that I passed on the genetics of a mood disorder, depression and anxiety or bipolar. It wasn't clear.
00:30:25
Speaker
Or somehow I did this behaviorally. Maybe she saw me depressed and so it hurt her in some way.
Parenting and Personal Identity
00:30:33
Speaker
Or because she was a very high energy and very emotional child who had trouble regulating her emotion. And so it was like, well, did I respond wrong to her? Then I somehow traumatized her and this is her.
00:30:46
Speaker
kind of her response. So I had all that happening within me. And while I was like, I need to help my child. And so I, you know, was I was helping her. And then, you know, then things just continued to not be good in our in our world.
00:31:06
Speaker
Yeah, and that part two, of course, is just a whole other added part of that even grief component, because then it's also reliving your own experience too through her or yourself. And then how did you toil with the decision of when do you tell your child? Because your children did not know what you had gone through. So when you see that your child is struggling
00:31:35
Speaker
in similar ways that you had. At what point do you decide how much do I tell her? Because she's at that moment, she was really young. At what point do I tell her that I've gone through something similar? How was that commotion within you? That conversation, tell us about that.
00:32:00
Speaker
Yeah, I really wanted to tell her. And at the same time, I didn't know. I mean, I'm a therapist, but at the time, I was really working only with adults. And so my focus wasn't on children as much. And so I know child development, and I know what's generally appropriate. But I really struggled with that. And I think
00:32:24
Speaker
I wanted to and I waited. I waited until the timing felt right. I waited until she was stable. And to me it was going to be this really big deal. Like she was going to have this big reaction and we were maybe going to bond and it was going to be this big thing. And I told her and she was like.
00:32:41
Speaker
Okay. And then like, I want to get tickets to this Fall Out Boy concert. It was like, wait, wait a second. I just like disclosed all of this to you and that's your response. But I just went with it because I realized like it's, I'm really focused on my own process, but she's focused on hers. And, and so this isn't making the impact I suspected that it would.
00:33:04
Speaker
Even though you thought, oh, she will now, I didn't know that I can actually truly relate her. Because even I was going to say that as a therapist, do your patients know that you've been through? Well, now of course they know because they didn't see the book. But prior to your book, did your patients know that you had been through similar things and is that relatability
00:33:25
Speaker
something that then they feel, okay, she knows, like truly knows what I'm going through. And is that then something that connects you deeper to your clients, to patients, to then be able
00:33:42
Speaker
to help them. Does that make sense? And in the same way, that's what I'm assuming that that's what you thought was going to happen then with your daughter. But at that time, yeah. With Hannah, at that moment, Hannah, and we'll kind of go in a little bit. We'll talk a little bit about the other part. But is that what you thought? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And to the question about my clients, I actually don't...
00:34:10
Speaker
I think all but one of my clients even knows that this book is out. And it was because she researched me. She found me on wherever, Psychology Today maybe, and then she just kind of researched me online and saw that this was before my book was released. But she saw kind of my bio and what the book was about. And so she knows.
00:34:31
Speaker
But we had a conversation and I said, you know, you can ask me about anything that's in the book or if you know If you're concerned about something that's going you feel like is gonna interfere in our therapy I really want to know and and if you have thoughts or feelings about what you have read in my book if you choose to read it I want to know because that's that's part of our relationship but just know that I'm gonna be pretty bound read about kind of
00:34:59
Speaker
getting deep into conversations about my experience or getting into what I'm doing presently. This is about you. This is your therapy. And I'm glad that you appreciate that you can relate to me. And yes, we have that connection. But really, this is about you. And so the other ways that I
00:35:22
Speaker
Just really quick to answer your question that I work with clients who don't know is that I often I will, um, well, one thing is that, you know, I, I have clients who talk about suicide quite a bit and I, there's something about when, when you start talking about these really scary topics, scary for a lot of people to hear. Um, and your therapist is like, yeah. And like grounded and like, please, you know, yeah, I want to know more.
00:35:53
Speaker
And yeah, like that makes sense. Yeah, you want your pain to end. Of course, of course. Having that validating approach rather than, oh my God, let's make a safety plan. And like, I actually supervise young therapists. And this is something we talk about a lot. This is one of their greatest fears, is that their client's gonna bring up suicide and they're not gonna know what to do. So,
00:36:20
Speaker
I feel like just that communicates to them that I know something. I know something about this. And they don't even have to know what I know, but just that feeling of like, OK, she gets it. I don't know why she gets it, but she gets it. Now, did that she gets it also then translate afterwards with your daughter at that time?
00:36:45
Speaker
You know, not, I don't think so. I think, I think that, I think there's just been so much trauma and upheaval in, in who now goes by Avery. And Avery can now go ahead and transition. Let's transition as we talk about transitions. Yes. Yeah. So, so my daughter kind of amidst,
00:37:15
Speaker
mental health crises and then a trauma that happened in our family to Avery specifically. Amidst all of that, Avery also began exploring his gender and his gender identity and
00:37:32
Speaker
throughout this process there was just so much happening that it seemed as if the gender identity exploration was caused by either the mental health conditions or the trauma and so it was very difficult for me to separate out like what is happening here like
00:37:52
Speaker
Is it my, my kids traumatized? And so that's why they want to be a boy. Is it, is it just a normal thing that, you know, was automatically going to happen to them? And this is just their path. And so, um, it was a real struggle for me to like, as a mother who talk about grief, you know, I was just going to say, cause that's, that's one thing too, when you've already,
00:38:19
Speaker
set up the idea of what it is you thought your life was gonna be with a daughter and a son, which your youngest is a son. And then now you have two sons. So it's like, how do you then cope with that in your mind, right? So that's even just a grief there within. So go ahead and talk about that. Yeah, and I think, I actually wrote an article on this that's going to be published in the Gay and Lesbian Review.
00:38:46
Speaker
I don't know the publication date, but it will be coming out at some point and it is called what I wish I had known about my gender-fluid child.
00:38:59
Speaker
or something like that, which I wish I had known how to parent my gender-fluid child. And basically it talks about my experience, which is that I felt guilty for having grief because I wanted to be affirming. I very much support people living in the gender that they feel that they are. And I was like, oh my God,
00:39:29
Speaker
No, this is, how can you change you? So it was just this very conflictual feeling. And then I felt like, oh my God, maybe I'm transphobic.
00:39:41
Speaker
that's never been something I am or have wanted to be. And so it just brought up all of these really difficult feelings. And so I didn't reach out or really talk to other parents going through the same thing. I just felt like they're gonna judge me. And what I've come to find out is that I would hope anyway that other parents wouldn't and other parents would say, you know what? Yeah, this is part of the process and it's okay. It's okay that you're sad. It's okay that you're grieving.
00:40:10
Speaker
You don't want to be doing that with your child because that's not their role. But you want to be doing it because if you're pushing it down or just not acknowledging your grief, it's going to come back. It's going to come back when you least expect it and it's going to be very, very difficult and traumatic. And we'll also influence how you're relating to your child unconsciously.
00:40:33
Speaker
So what I would say to parents who have children who are either exploring their gender identity, who are gender fluid, or who move into choosing a specific gender, don't judge yourself.
00:40:50
Speaker
One, you didn't do anything wrong. It's not because you did something that this is happening. And two, it's OK to be sad. They don't want to see their childhood pictures displayed in the house. So yeah, take them down. But don't get rid of them. Keep them for you because this is a person you knew. These are memories that you have and that you can cherish. It doesn't have to be like, OK, I erased that because those are yours.
00:41:20
Speaker
I think the distinction is that we were not putting it on the child. We, in our family, those who need to grieve, we're grieving that together. That is so important. And what you said about the aspect of the pictures, I know someone that had that situation, and remember her sharing that it was like she had to grieve the death of
00:41:45
Speaker
her, I won't say that, I won't say which gender was before or after just to not make identify her, this gender child to, and then to then, because it was basically the death of that gender and that person that had been born to then this new identity that was now going to be identified with as her child. So, so there was that grieving component and continues to sometimes be
00:42:12
Speaker
And she sometimes goes and looks at pictures of when her child was a baby to kind of, you know, reminisce on the child she had, and of course is happy with the child she now has too, and loves, but it's that aspect of that duality of emotions that can come in just this one scenario. So thank you for sharing that. Anything else you want to touch upon on that subject?
00:42:42
Speaker
Well, it's interesting because as Avery has kind of grown and changed over the years, Avery's now 20, just turned 20, Avery has actually moved into, so interesting. My kid is such a trail blazer. Avery has decided that,
00:43:11
Speaker
she doesn't care. She says, call me she, call me he. I confuse people all the time because sometimes I dress like a guy and I've taken some testosterone, so I have some male features, but I still have my female features and some days I want to wear makeup and earrings and a dress. And so I do. And people are constantly confused. And I like that.
00:43:34
Speaker
Because it's a performance in a way like this isn't the essence of who I am ultimately isn't like a specific
00:43:46
Speaker
gender that is one stereotype or the other. I can kind of inhabit all of it. And it's fun. And I kind of like confusing people. It's like a commentary. And I actually, as you're saying that as now as Avery as an adult, and in the book, there was that aspect that you were kind of like confused because
00:44:07
Speaker
Hannah had just told you that she identified as a he in the book and then all of a sudden you saw her put or him at that moment wearing like
00:44:18
Speaker
pink something tutu or something like really bright and dress or dress and stuff. And you were kind of like confused. Was it for the fall out boy concert or something? I forget. There was something that in the book that then and you're like, wait, I just thought he told me it's like he like, and you were company. So I guess fluid would be the right word then for Avery because of this. Yeah. It doesn't matter what
00:44:46
Speaker
you call me, and the essence is still who I am is really the most important is that. It's who this individual is. Yeah, and I think I did feel like it was a death as well. And I think I don't feel that way as much now because I see a continuity. I see the through line. And I think it helps that Avery is gender fluid and is less attached.
00:45:14
Speaker
because that helps me understand that, yeah, gender is a construct. Gender is a performance. It's something that we inhabit that for some people is like, it's a cellular level. It's like, I am all boy, that or he, I am all man. That is who I am. But that's not who Avery is. Avery is a very fluid, creative person in
00:45:38
Speaker
in his gender expression. And he may decide later to go one way or the other. But it's like, now I understand. This is who my child is. And so, yeah, I have photos on my phone that sometimes I look at just because I miss that
Reflections on Parenthood and Acceptance
00:45:57
Speaker
child. But I think we can all relate to that as parents because I don't know anybody whose child turned out the way that their parents thought they were going to.
00:46:07
Speaker
You know what I do with my friend I'm so mad at my I have teenagers and it's so bad or something I like I go back and look at the pictures of what they were just so
00:46:16
Speaker
And it's kind of what you're saying. I'm like, oh my gosh, but look how cute they were. And they used to hug me, and now they don't even hug me. And they used to want to cuddle with me, and now they don't. All these things that we still grieve as a parent, regardless of the outcome of gender or whatever, is just like you said, we are grieving that parenting may not look the way we thought it was going to look like.
00:46:45
Speaker
And also I actually grieve more of even just how I am as a parent, more than even who they are as kids. I'm like, man, this is not, I did not think I was going to be a nagging parent. And here I am nagging so much that it drives me insane. You know, so, so yeah, so I, you're absolutely right. We all grieve in one shape or form in our, in our parenting life role, I guess would be the thing. So thank you for bringing that up.
00:47:14
Speaker
Now, Caitlin, let's talk then how people can, and by the way, everyone that's listening to this, you'll be able to go much deeper into all these different subjects that we've talked about. Caitlin's upbringing, growing up, the things that triggered your hospitalization, parenting, then now parenting your child and all these things in the book. So how can people get the book now that it's out?
00:47:41
Speaker
Yeah, so you can find it at any major bookseller. But I would love it if you would buy the book directly from me. And you can, there's a tab on my website in the menu called buy.
00:47:57
Speaker
and go to that tab and you can order the book directly from me and I will ship it to you. That you know that helps me as an author because any other major bookseller they are getting some of my money and you know whatever like we're a capitalist society and I accept that and it would be nice to kind of be able to own some of the proceeds from my book.
00:48:23
Speaker
Absolutely. And especially because you're doing the legwork right now. You're here on this podcast you're getting. So anybody listening to this podcast, you're going to go straight to the website link that I'm putting below in the profile notes. CaitlinBillings.com. And on there, go to buy and you will buy the book directly from there rather than searching anywhere else. So is there anything I did not ask you that you would want to tell the readers either regarding grief or mental health or trauma
00:48:52
Speaker
that you want to leave them with? Any nuggets that you want to leave? Yeah, I think the nugget for me would be if you're a person who believes that you should have it all together or you shouldn't suffer in any way that, you know, you need to be perfect because perfection is a myth that exists in our society.
00:49:12
Speaker
that you talk to somebody that you seek help and that doesn't have to be a bad thing and in fact can be preventative you know if I had sought therapy earlier I don't know that I would have ended up hospitalized you know I there may have been a way to manage through it that looked different
00:49:29
Speaker
It didn't have to be so extreme necessarily. I just urge people, contact a therapist. If you need somebody to talk to, it's confidential, it's private, and they're going to get it. They're really going to get it. If they don't get it, find a different one. It's okay to interview a couple of therapists to find the right fit. Perfect. Thank you once again, Caitlin Billings here on the podcast, and again, in our blood
Closing Thoughts on Help and Self-Acceptance
00:49:59
Speaker
is out for you to purchase and straight from the website. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being here.
00:50:16
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
00:50:44
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.