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Colonial Furniture: Who, What, When, Where, and Why? Season 2, Episode 5.
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Join us in the second section of The American Craftsman Podcast season 2. This episode we cover the who, what, when, where, and why of the Colonial furniture period.
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Transcript
Partnership Announcement
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00:01:07
Speaker
Oh, all right. Here we go. We're live. Oh, OK.
Season Two Highlights
00:01:11
Speaker
Season two, episode five. Wow. The the first installment of Colonial Furniture. Yeah. Yeah. We got a big one. Sixteen pages here. Well, this is it's for four episodes. So we're recording this. What is it? It's October 14th. So tomorrow, episode four will be released. The final episode of the early American period.
00:01:36
Speaker
And today, as you know, we're going to sit and we'll knock out the whole entire colonial period today. Trying to stay ahead of the curve. Yeah, you know, stuff happens and we'd rather have a couple in the chamber. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Plus, this is kind of a down week. We're kind of coming off of Maker's Camp. Yeah, still recovering. That's right. That's what I mean. Got my nice IKAG.
00:02:06
Speaker
Coffee cup, thanks Matt. I had my first cup in that this morning. I like these cups. They have a nice shape, like a direct injection of coffee. Yes. Instead of that vertical edge. It's got a nice lead in.
Understanding Furniture Periods: Colonial vs Early American
00:02:23
Speaker
Yeah, well, we're talking about the period between 1700 and 1780. And the first thing that came to my mind is
00:02:32
Speaker
Whoever designates the names for these periods of furniture, I would have thought that colonial would have been the first and early American would have been the second.
00:02:43
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Because early American, it's not America yet. Yeah. Yeah. It's the colonies. Right. It becomes America. Yeah. We become America during this time period. But I guess we should mention, too, these periods are kind of. Yeah. We're not taking these out of like, you know, a textbook by some hardcore furniture guy. These are kind of ambiguous, not ambiguous, but they're kind of just
00:03:07
Speaker
It's loosey goosey to a certain extent. I don't even know who made these designations of these 12 periods, but there's definitely periods between and interspersed with these 12 also, but we'll touch on all that. Right.
Evolution of Colonial Furniture
00:03:22
Speaker
There are a couple of different styles that
00:03:24
Speaker
don't quite make it into the top 12 like Sheridan and Hepplewhite and stuff like that. I thought Sheridan is one of them. Is it? I think so. It might be the next one. Oh, I thought federal might be the next one since we became a nation. So I don't know. I don't know. Why don't they call that constitutional? For Declaration of Independenceian. There you go. I think I have the 12. Do you have the 12 written down somewhere? I think so.
00:03:55
Speaker
Yeah, we've been taking it one step at a time. Nah. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You guys will find out what it is. What we do. Yeah. So essentially, we're going to backtrack a little bit.
00:04:12
Speaker
and just kind of review because colonial style really it's by the by the end of the this period America starts to come away with its own sense of style but up till this point everything's really just a rehash of what's going on in Europe right and everything is kind of you know there's a lot of good furniture being made
00:04:39
Speaker
but the majority of furniture is just for practical purposes to this point.
Pronunciation and Influence of Jacobean Style
00:04:45
Speaker
And what happens is, the colonial furniture takes all this practical stuff, the early designs that influenced furniture making, you had the early American, and this was the hit of the last podcast series,
00:05:05
Speaker
my pronunciation, my pronunciation of Jacobean. Yeah. And now I'm totally confused as to what it actually is. I think it's Jacobean. Jacobean. Yeah. I stand corrected. I feel like a dick for being so confident in Jacobian. I think there were the two. There are two separate references for the word. That's what happened. Yeah. The the
00:05:35
Speaker
Jacobean. Is that how you say it? I don't even know. It's like in reference to the Jacobites or something. It was like uprising against one of the kings or something. Yeah, because it's Jacobean refers to James, King James. Like Carolin refers to King Charles. Charles.
00:05:51
Speaker
And William and Mary, Queen Anne, you could see the theme here. All these furniture styles are named after monarchs.
Chippendale: From Monarchs to Craftsmen
00:06:00
Speaker
Until we end up with the Chippendale as the pinnacle of the colonial furniture style. Yeah, when it starts to be a furniture maker who the style is actually named after. First guy, first dude. So it takes 80 years, almost a century. So it's not this...
00:06:20
Speaker
Like, you know, things aren't cut and dry. This is all quite fluid. Whereas now, you know, styles are changing every three to five years, maybe even less, depending on where you are. Yeah. So we're taking all these European styles. The ones that are done in America are generally a little bit more conservative. And because of the lack of, like, highly skilled craftsmen and the interpretive nature of the work,
00:06:49
Speaker
It's a little bit less ornate, I'm gonna say. Infrastructure probably as well. In Europe you have these shops that have been there producing furniture for some time and people are coming here and having a start with nothing. Exactly. So you're working in a pretty rudimentary shop. Right. It's not like you can go down to Woodcraft and pick up a planer and a joiner. I mean even just getting some sharp tools. You might have to go down to the Blacksmith
00:07:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'd have to imagine like things like benches and even like the lays that they use, like the full powered, what do they call them, treadle lays. They probably weren't bringing a lot of that here because, you know, space was was precious on these ships. Right. It's like the more people and like
00:07:38
Speaker
Uh, what's the word I'm looking for? You know, like food, water, the necessities. Yeah, that's the kind of stuff that they had to maximize the space for on these boats because they were coming to a place where, you know, there's all these unknowns. They're not gonna be like, bring the workbench along.
00:07:56
Speaker
That's right. So I figured I'd do, went back to my teaching days and figured we'd do like a quick review. So what were the pieces that were being built? You know, we said that the chest was probably the preeminent piece. It was the most important thing. People probably came over with a chest with all their stuff.
00:08:19
Speaker
jammed into it. Yep. It was basically a box, especially for the the poorer folks. And a lot of these people, you know, they didn't have much just like it's the milk crate of the 1600s. That's stolen from behind the convenience store. That's a good way to put it. And those higher up the ranks had the banker's box. I got plenty of those.
00:08:49
Speaker
So those were built in the early American style chairs and stools, you know people wanted something to sit on you had your turn chair Which you could really kind of imagine, you know had to turn legs Everything was kind of joined with a hole where the the turning would fit into it There is the cane chair, which instead of a wooden seat had the you know, the woven cane. Mm-hmm
00:09:15
Speaker
Wayne's cut chair started having joinery. Just the back legs were joined to the rails and styles that held the seat. A stool, a saddle, which is kind of like a bench, almost like a chest that you can sit on.
Practicality in Early Furniture Designs
00:09:34
Speaker
Then we had the tables. We went pretty deep into the trestle table last time. You also had like a drop leaf, a gate leg, and some beds. Again, this is the essentials.
00:09:51
Speaker
Trundle bed that would slide underneath the big bed a four poster and those things were pretty clunky not like you know, we think of a Yeah, those delicate for poster like with those pencils
00:10:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And style-wise, we'll flip back and talk about the main influences. You had the Jacobean. And this is one of those styles that maybe everybody doesn't know when you hear the word.
00:10:26
Speaker
But if you saw it, like we're looking at a picture of it right now, a chair. It's so easily identifiable. Yeah. People would say, oh, I didn't know that was Jacobin. It's it's like really heavy and thick. A lot of carving. The back and the seat
Jacobean and Carolin Influences
00:10:44
Speaker
are solid. The back is carved. Yeah. I mean, it's like a throne. Right. Think of like a chair that a priest would be. Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:54
Speaker
What we'll do is, so we have the, uh, I brought up my iMac over here and we have the pictures up there, but what I'll do is, so when we're looking at something over here, I'll put it up over this region. But magically you'll insert it.
00:11:11
Speaker
Yeah, I had to zoom in so many times to get that. That's why the quality is so bad. That's the thing about these big screens. It's you think it's going to make everything bigger. And it just makes it fuzzier. Yeah, because, you know, the well, I guess not that great of an image, but I had to zoom in about. Yeah, a lot of these were taken from. Like museum websites and things like that. Yeah, and they probably took the picture in the 80s or something.
00:11:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. It looks like a lot of my pictures. One note that I have here is although, well not although, these things were built to be viewed from all sides, which I think was sort of a step forward. Right.
00:11:55
Speaker
like instead of stuff being pushed against the wall, now you could go around the back and from the sides and you'd see the workmanship on all from all angles. Yeah, I mean, that's a it's an insane chair. It is. And this is early work.
00:12:12
Speaker
After the Jack of Beans, there's a very short period where Oliver Cromwell takes over in England, and things kind of go puritan and real straightforward. But then, what they call restoration of Carolin,
00:12:29
Speaker
comes in when Charles II takes over. It's like a history class. But you could see how like current events are influencing all this stuff like furniture design, especially as I'm learning all this stuff as we're going along. There's so much influence from outside the happenings in the world. We've kind of lost that I feel like. Yeah. Maybe since the
00:12:57
Speaker
the 50s, 60s. Well, even the, I mean, I guess now like you think of technology kind of as a driver, like you see in the atomic age, things start to have this space age kind of look. But now, now there's just, I feel like more repurposing of old designs and it's kind of like music, like what now can someone do that's going to be brand new?
00:13:21
Speaker
really not it's it's all been done basically like it's it's start everything starts out simple and gets more and more complicated so it's because it's pulling from all of the older things so we've kind of like run out of new
00:13:38
Speaker
I like those two examples, one music that's a great parallel. And I would have struggled to think of something, but like the atomic age stuff, like fins on cars and the rocket shaped lights and the air stream trailer, you know, all that stuff. That's true. That's really cool.
00:14:01
Speaker
So, I mean, how would you describe, I'll tell you that the the carillon design, it was like a direct reaction to the simplification of stuff that happened during Cromwell's reign in England.
Simplification and American Aesthetics
00:14:16
Speaker
And they were looking over to like France, Louis XIV and all that stuff. So you could see it's kind of florid. Yeah, so Cromwell was a Puritan, right? Yeah. So he might have identified, it might have been like
00:14:30
Speaker
the identifier that people think of Puritans that were like a little more simple and humble, whereas, you know, some of the Puritans that we talked about were more, you know, open to being a little bit more out there. Yeah, regular folk. Yeah. To me, it has like a sort of like a Gothic look. Yeah.
00:14:50
Speaker
You could see those S curves. The same thing, though. It's still got the flat C and the straight back. We haven't gotten into like comfort yet, it looks like. Yeah, I mean, it's like a little ominous looking. It's like something that you would see like a modern goth person. Yeah. Yeah. Gothic in terms of architecture. But.
00:15:11
Speaker
but turnings, carvings and a small amount of joinery there where the seat is, is meeting the, you know, the back rails and stuff, but very,
00:15:23
Speaker
thin and not so heavy. Another thing that happens between Jacobine and Caroline is they're shifting from wall to walnut as the main like preference for wood away from oak. Make it down with that. Yeah and I think that might have something to do with the abundance of walnut in France too.
00:15:49
Speaker
So then we have William & Mary. This was a style I was not familiar with at all. But it was mentioned enough that I brought it up. We've got a high-res pic now. Yeah, and you can see it's pretty similar.
00:16:08
Speaker
Now, a lot of these things are happening and overlapping at the same time. The dates I have for restoration are Carolin, the 1660s to the 1680s, and then William & Mary picks up right after that 1700s, 1735, and it's sort of a simplification almost of the Carolin.
00:16:30
Speaker
This is looking more American to me. Yeah. Whereas the the Carolin look and the Jacobi Jacobean whatever. I'm ready to move past all these Jacobean references the next month. This looks more American to me. Yeah. Caning the the those straight turnings on the on the like that run all the way in the back as the legs in the back.
00:17:02
Speaker
Yeah, caning was a big thing, you know, brought in a guy that was his specialty. You know, you had the turners, you had the joiners, you had the caners. So here are my notes on the William & Mary. It was influenced by recent French furniture traditions, which were in turn influenced by the Baroque Italian
00:17:25
Speaker
furniture designs. And they were looking at all the elements to contribute to sort of like an overall shape or look, which maybe they didn't do in the past. They're sort of trying to picture this thing as a finished piece, had high relief carvings just like the carillon and strong curves.
00:17:58
Speaker
And it was still a pretty sturdy looking piece of furniture. In this instance, we're looking at a chair. As we move forward, we'll start to see how delicate things can begin to look. Here, everything's still fairly heavy. You can see these S
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure there's a term for them. These sort of s turning s carvings down here in the feet. Yeah, it's starting to look more comfortable to me. Yeah, they're tilting the back. Yeah, this caroling in it looks very rigid and and sort of uncomfortable and this is starting to look a little more comfortable. Yeah, it's a bit lighter. Yeah.
00:18:47
Speaker
like something you could spend an hour or two sitting in. Queen Anne's the next style and I'll just remind everyone we're talking about these are all the styles that contribute to the early American
00:19:08
Speaker
I'm sorry, the colonial design aesthetic. That's a gorgeous piece. Yeah, yeah, you know when when you say Queen Anne everybody thinks of the like these I guess Queen Anne revival you would call it like we're talking 19 I
Queen Anne's Lasting Impact
00:19:25
Speaker
guess 50 60 70s is when it's the stuff you see now on Facebook Marketplace as somebody took and they paint it with chalk paint and
00:19:33
Speaker
And it's got, you know, these style hardware with the backing plates. But this, I mean, now we're talking furniture, right? This thing's got all kinds of veneer work. Look at this crotch figure here, book matched.
00:19:51
Speaker
It's the introduction of the Cabrio leg. Now we're getting into the territory where people who make furniture nowadays have heard these terms. Look at these dropped finials. You could see this in a store today, in a home today.
00:20:09
Speaker
Yeah. And you could see, you know, a fake version over at like Raymond Raymond, Ray Moore Flanagan. Yeah. Yeah. For like some obscene price, too. Yeah. This is a piece of furniture that we're looking at that's.
00:20:24
Speaker
probably built in the mid 1700s. So it's almost 300 years old and look at the style. And well, this is a surviving piece. This is a real photo. I mean, that's gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. We'd struggle to make something that nice. Yeah.
00:20:48
Speaker
So, again, you have the Cabrio legs. There's a real fluidity now to the design here. There's an emphasis on line and form instead of ornament, which like with that Carolinian, Jacobean, even the William & Mary, it's ornamentation rather than, you know,
00:21:12
Speaker
this this flows yeah i mean this it kind of has like an animal like it looks like a spider or something yeah yeah fangs right those legs look alive yeah um that says something about the uh craftsman that made it um here's uh here's our first fun fact
00:21:32
Speaker
I like fun facts. The term Queen Anne was first applied to this style about a hundred years after it appeared. They didn't call it Queen Anne back then. Do we know what they called it? They called it furniture. Late Baroque. What do you call this? It's a table. Or early Georgian. Again, you know, sticking with the monarch name.
00:21:59
Speaker
It must have been like early on in King George's reign.
00:22:07
Speaker
The next furniture that we get into, which is what wraps up colonial American furniture is Chip and Dale. And we'll spend some time on Chip and Dale in the coming episodes because he was so influential. Yeah. I love the name of his shop. Yeah.
00:22:30
Speaker
We'll keep that back. Stay tuned for that one. The name of Chippendale's Furniture Shop. We'll surprise everyone. But, I mean, describe this Chippendale chair we're looking at.
Chippendale's Intricate Style
00:22:46
Speaker
It's definitely low slung.
00:22:49
Speaker
The the seat, it actually it has a little bit of an angle forward and they're keeping with like that, you know, maybe five, five degrees angled back on the back. It's it's it's carved, but the back is it's very light. But fully carved, you know, and it's made up of this intertwined sort of like scrollage and leafage.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's the thing. Chip and Dale, you can see how the back legs are kind of angled backwards. Oh, that's a good picture. Oh, yeah, we got some good detail there. On this 2012 iMac. It's an upholstered seat. Yeah. Yeah, with almost like, it looks a little bit Asian influenced. That's a good pickup because there are a couple of different kinds of Chip and Dale.
00:23:46
Speaker
And you could see even in the back splat that that's got some Asian influence, too. You know, it's kind of got that bamboo look. That was that was one of the the. What would you call it? Subcategories of Chippendale. He had three kind of pallets that he worked in.
00:24:10
Speaker
But the splat is open and carved. Think of this chair compared to the Jacobean chair. Oh, yeah. I mean, this looks like you could lift it up with one hand. Right. Jacobean chair. Go back to it. There it is. We need the moving company. Yeah, you need a hand truck to move this thing. The back legs are like three by three square.
00:24:29
Speaker
in the back, just the back. That's a table. If you lay it down flat, it's about 125 board feet in there. It almost looks like an Aztec like throne. Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:44
Speaker
So although Chip and Dale, he shares a lot of characteristics with the Queen Anne, you could see he's taken it to the next level. And the other big thing that Chip and Dale did was he created a real preference for mahogany. And we're going to get into mahogany in one of our coming episodes because it's
00:25:09
Speaker
It's such a big switch. Yeah. And, you know, it creates this this worldwide ripple phenomenon.
00:25:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And there's no shortage of fans of Chippendale, and I mean among experts, like, you know, you'll go to websites like the guy who's in charge of auctions for Christie's and all these places, and they'll
00:25:41
Speaker
you know, talk about Chippendale as the greatest ever. And one of the notes I wrote down here is some examples of the Massachusetts made Chippendale are some of the most sophisticated American furniture ever. Yeah. Ever produced. We're talking. I mean, this the carving in the back of this is it's really insane. Yeah. It's 300 years old. Right. In mahogany. Yeah.
00:26:10
Speaker
which is an easier wood to work than some, but not the easiest in terms of carving. I mean, this, the movement in these little ribbons here. Yeah, that chair is alive. Yeah. It's amazing. A tied, you know, this is a tied bow at the time. So it's basically, it's made of like ribbon and sort of
00:26:41
Speaker
I guess like I think those things all mirror nature. Yeah, like sort of a canthus kind of like vine. Insane. Yeah, really, really gorgeous. Just the the curves, the proportions. Great use of negative space. That was another thing that he was really well known for.
00:27:10
Speaker
Well, we mentioned this before, but fun fact number two, Chippendale furniture is the first to be named after the maker rather than a monarch.
00:27:18
Speaker
And that's Thomas Chippendale. Yeah, Thomas Chippendale. So Chippendale, Queen Anne, William & Mary, Caroline, Jacobean. These are all the subsets that make up colonial furniture.
00:27:40
Speaker
what influences the designer becomes colonial furniture. A big jump, you know. Yeah, think about it. The Jacobean is still obviously because it passed through both periods. The early American was mostly influenced by Jacobean and you see it's still influenced in the early colonial. But once you get into the Carolinian and so on, I mean, it's a big, big difference.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yeah, and you're really only talking a period of like 50 to 100 years in transition. You could see just the workmanship and the eye.
00:28:20
Speaker
You could see how life is changing in the, you know, the early, early America because things before were very not, I don't want to say primitive, but like you look at even the Hartford chest, which is heavily carved. It's very,
00:28:39
Speaker
I don't know, like almost a blue collar. Yeah, it's heavy. This is, you know, the the local guy working in the field as a farmer. He's not sitting on this chair. It screams refinement. Yeah.
Modern Relevance of Chippendale Designs
00:28:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's it. I mean, you could have this chair in your house today. Mm hmm. And it fit perfectly. Yeah.
00:29:03
Speaker
So and that tells us how much influence his designs have had. Yeah. The funky print, you know, that's like, you know, we'll talk about relations to today in episode four. But you see that a lot now, these sort of funky floral prints, even in wallpaper and stuff like that. You know, 10 years ago, you probably wouldn't have a chair like this in your house. No.
00:29:28
Speaker
Not unless you were any, you know, an antique collector. You and I would not have one. No, but this could go in a modern home. Yeah. And stuff it in with this, you know, like transitional design. They call it where you sort of just mix and matching a bunch of different stuff. I think I have chairs from Ikea. Yeah, I got it. Did you ever see the price of a chair, a good chair? Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's why I have chairs from Ikea. Even an antique, you know, a good antique chair.
00:29:58
Speaker
Yeah. All right. So we have these designs. Uh, so what's influencing these designs? Um, now this is a, no shocker, but the classics, you know, all the stuff that we still use. Um, yeah. Uh, this guy name is Italian Andrea.
00:30:19
Speaker
a guy, Andrea or Andrea, Palladio, he wrote the four books of architecture. Equatro libri del architectura. And it gets translated into English.
00:30:34
Speaker
right around the time that the Carolin and restoration designs are sort of the it thing in America. And this guy, he went through all the classics.
00:30:49
Speaker
and he detailed everything he he talked about building materials techniques well the the columns you know that a lot of you will see in a lot of the you know the furniture design like
00:31:05
Speaker
we still haven't in our moldings and everything today the Corinthian and the Ionic all the all the capitals the arches the entablatures that's right that vaulted ceilings that all goes way way back in time um and his second book covered uh
00:31:26
Speaker
urban townhouses and villas, the design of homes and how furniture fits into it. So guys like Frank Lloyd Wright definitely had to have been influenced by that sort of thing. He even talks about city planning.
00:31:47
Speaker
Um, and, but the fourth book is really the big one because it's got 26 chapters that talk about the Roman temples.
Golden Ratio in Furniture Design
00:31:56
Speaker
And he actually puts all of like the dimensions and everything. And so he's talking about, I gotta get my hands on this book. Yeah. I, I, so it's still available on Amazon for like 20 bucks for books of architecture by Andrea Palladio.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I'll see. I'll try and put a link if I can find a good link in the description. Yeah. He has the golden rectangle in it, and we use that all the time. Yeah. Much to the the degree of some clients are like, can you make it shorter? I'm like, this looks like crap. It's just going through that yesterday.
00:32:38
Speaker
They're like, it's getting a little close to the ceiling. I'm like, okay, well, you're better off just not doing it. If you're going to do it like this, do we have to, and I don't want to sound like, you know, the, like the typical, like we know better, but we do know better because we are just bringing forward the thoughts of, you know, a thousand, 2000 years of proven design aesthetic.
00:33:06
Speaker
If it's good enough for nature, it's good enough for you. Here's something I'll read. Mathematicians since Euclid, if we've heard of Euclid geometry, have been exploring the golden ratio. The golden rectangle is often used in developing pleasing proportions where the relationship between the long side and the short side is the golden ratio, which is about 1 to 1.618 and it goes on and on.
00:33:37
Speaker
Also explained is A plus B divided by A equals A divided by B. Yeah, so to simplify that, like if you want to practically use the golden ratio, let's say you're building the box and you want it to be 10 inches in this direction, then it's going to be 16.1 inches and, you know, 16 and an eighth in the other direction. That gives you a golden rectangle.
00:34:02
Speaker
That's that's perfect. Yeah. So if you're designing, you know, a piece of furniture and you have a set dimension, then and then, you know, you have another dimension that's open. You can use the golden ratio to sort of get something that's going to. And then you you get massaged. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a good starting point.
00:34:20
Speaker
I use it a lot like if I have an upper cabinet and I'm looking for a place to divide the lower door from the upper door like it's a two door thing with the shorter door up top I'll that's my first Go to there. Yeah, then you divide it by one point six one, right? Yes. Yeah So you can use it. Yeah, you can either multiply or divide
00:34:46
Speaker
I wrote down here, we could easily spend a whole show exploring the golden ratio. Yeah. Maybe that's what we'll do the Patreon about. Sounds like a thriller. Boy, you really gotta be a nerd. Some kind of furniture nerd. Are there furniture nerds? Yeah, you're looking at two of them.
00:35:08
Speaker
If you want to get better, you know, all this stuff is important. It may never build a Chippendale chair. But looking at it, you're learning about, you know, different ideas and techniques and and, you know, like music. You might be a heavy metal musician, but listening to, you know, Beethoven could be beneficial.
00:35:33
Speaker
That's right. And then Chuck Berry. Yeah. So how long how long we got? We've been going for 35 minutes. All right. So we'll we'll we'll skim through some of this stuff. But it's important to know where we came from to know where we're going. And that's that's kind of how we look at it. Yeah.
Boston as a Style Leader
00:35:56
Speaker
So where is colonial furniture developing? The first city is Boston. Boston's the main city in pre-revolutionary times. Oh, look, we have pictures of it in there. Ah, the Temple of Trajan.
00:36:20
Speaker
Oh, no picture there. That's a bad link. I'm going to talk to the copy editor. So you're going rectangle. Oh yeah. There's the golden rectangle. Show that to, uh, that's a great way. That's a great way to divide up a couple of base cabinets. Yeah. It shows you the relationships there between the, the A and the B and then the A plus B. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
00:36:48
Speaker
It's amazing how often it appears in nature, like the Fibonacci sequence and the Nautilus, all that stuff. Da Vinci's Vitruvian man, that's the guy standing in the circle.
00:37:09
Speaker
So, Boston is the leading colonial city in early 18th century, early 1700s. They're the first to grab onto all these new styles. They're the trendsetters. They're like, you know, like what New York is now, what Milan is to fashion. They're picking these things up first and it's sort of filtering down from there. Yeah, New England's had the most time, you know,
00:37:39
Speaker
Get established and because that's where most people were coming into right they they grab onto the Cabrio leg They're making furniture a little bit more comfortable And they're starting to produce thousands of Queen Anne style chairs
00:37:58
Speaker
which is just that one step down from the Chippendale. Right. Yeah. So is that what we're looking at here? Yeah. Yeah. That's it. You can see it's like a really simplified version of a Chippendale. The back splat is solid.
00:38:18
Speaker
But they, you know, they are making some curves in there. They're playing with the negative space. Let me. Yeah, you know, it's got. There we go. You got the front legs that are sort of like a heavy duty Cabrio in a way. Yep. In the.
00:38:39
Speaker
So they're making these things by the thousands up in Boston and they're a hit and they're sending them down through the colonies. Um, so much less elegant than, I mean, if we had a side by side, that would look like a chair that like we would make compared to Jim and Dale, right?
00:39:02
Speaker
Yeah, like this. I this I can't get. Yeah, you can't get excited about this chick. I know it's got a weird sort of stance. It's kind of bowlegged with the Gabrielle legs in the front and just curved legs in the back. Look at the turnings down there that are a little of the legs together. A little clunky. Right. I mean, it really is just not as good.
00:39:28
Speaker
So Philadelphia, if you're, if, if, you know, we got to shop in Philly and we see our town flooded with all these chairs coming out of Boston, we got to do something. That shot's fired. So, so Philly, they, they try and, uh, you know, come up with their own style of chair and it's their own take on the Queen Anne.
00:39:53
Speaker
Okay, look at it. Now, what would... Look at that. That's a little nicer. It is, isn't it?
00:40:02
Speaker
still the proportions are a little strange it is it's I mean look at the the back legs the way they kind of just like plop down like yeah actually there seem to be more narrow than the widest point of the man I'm not into this whole Cabrio leg in the front and and the straight leg in the back it looks like somebody sitting like this like
00:40:29
Speaker
Yeah, you can see they they do a little bit more work on the splat and the negative space has more of a design in it if you if you see it. Yep.
Newport's American Innovations
00:40:43
Speaker
Now we're going to get to the third city where from my studying, this is where I would consider American furniture really beginning. And that's Newport, Rhode Island.
00:40:59
Speaker
Ah, the picture's so small. Newport, oh, this is the Chester drawers. Oh, okay. Let's see if we can get a bigger picture. In Newport, they're taking these, whoo, and there's the identifying feature of the Newport design that's shell carving, yep.
00:41:26
Speaker
Look at the legs on the Newport is wearing little shoes. That's right. That's like Italian boots. It's exactly how my notes describe it, too. A little slipper feet. But this is this is what you think of when you think of furniture from that time period. You think of, let's say, the Chippendale chair and this Newport, I guess you call it a table, a chest.
00:41:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:58
Speaker
Cabinet this is more akin to the like Queen Anne revival. Mm-hmm kind of stuff Yeah, yeah, so the furniture makers up in Newport they're they're starting to stake their claim and We'll get into who these these actual cabinet makers were in in the next episode But it's it's quite a leap forward. Yeah, I mean we're just looking at this photo and admiring it
00:42:28
Speaker
you
00:42:33
Speaker
and let's see what else we got here we got I mean we'll talk about the publication of Chippendale's book and I have one note here on Chippendale we've been kind of putting them up on a pedestal and deservedly so yeah but I have a note here says he didn't invent all of the styles that his furniture
00:43:00
Speaker
contains, but he did combine all these things. And this is a good word. He codified the reigning fashions in England for his creative blend of Gothic, Asian and French Rococo design.
00:43:21
Speaker
All right. We're going to have to start trying to wrap this episode up. We got 20 minutes. Oh, we do? All right. Good. Good. So, um, we can talk a bit about, um, Chippendale's design because
00:43:38
Speaker
This is that's really the the pinnacle of this period of furniture.
Chippendale's Diverse Influences
00:43:45
Speaker
Here's another example. And you could see it's quite a bit heavier. Yeah. But it still retains some of the same
00:43:57
Speaker
elements. Yeah, so now we have like a Cabrio leg, but with a ball and claw foot. And it has the same Cabrio on the front with a sort of straighter leg in the back, but the execution by Chippendale is much more elegant than some of these other ones that we've seen. He's got relief carved into the sides and
00:44:19
Speaker
Yeah, the things that are common in all these designs is that solid piece in the middle that's kind of carved away. The backs are very minimal as far as actual material. But they speak very loudly to the design, upholstered seat.
00:44:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you saw earlier in the early American, more of like a ladder back kind of style chair where where you had horizontal negative space. All of these, it's really vertical where you have the two sides and then the splat in the back with all this negative space on on either side. This one's got the ball and the claw on the front. I wonder if it's got a little one in the back. It's hard to tell in the photo if I can swim in there a little bit.
00:45:11
Speaker
This is a decently. Wow. No, it's it's. But there's definitely some carving in detail there. Yeah, it's sort of rake dense blades carved in. It's it's really amazing. Yeah, these ball and claw are really nice. Sometimes these the talons or claws can look really heavy with these. Yeah, you could you could see the sinew in the in these acanthus leaves here.
00:45:43
Speaker
I wish I knew the exact history of this chair if it had gone through any kind of restoration because imagine how many people have sat in this chair. The joints are still tight.
00:46:04
Speaker
I can't tell you how many modern chairs friends of mine have brought over to the shop to glue back together. And they're held together with screws and corner blocks and glue and dowels and those kind of flat staples. And they can't stay together for five years.
00:46:29
Speaker
Um, really, really nice. So let's talk about the three kinds of Chippendale. Um, like there's the English version was the modern version when people say Chippendale and they're not like qualifying it.
00:46:49
Speaker
That's what they mean. That's a Chippendale piece. But Chippendale also worked in Gothic and with ecclesiastical motifs, church motifs. And I put in parentheses here, think of a Gothic window. He would employ things like that in his scroll work and in his carvings.
00:47:17
Speaker
And the third is the Chinese Chippendale, which that first chair that we were looking at had bamboo motifs, fretwork, and that was a big influence on a lot of furniture makers. Yeah, like when you think of like a Chippendale railing section, to me that seems more like of the Chinese sort of, you know what I'm talking about? Chippendale, which is sort of just all these intersecting diagonal sections.
00:47:46
Speaker
Here's where, I'll backtrack a little bit, I wrote down, Chippendale shares design aesthetics with Sheridan and Hepplewhite, such as the Pierce Splats, similar leg angles, and they were all influenced by Louis XIV style furniture. So we'll see if Sheridan and Hepplewhite are big enough categories to make it into our top 12, but they were definitely categories.
00:48:15
Speaker
just
American and Irish Adaptations
00:48:16
Speaker
had a couple of these that they're, they're so similar. Yeah. And in Europe they were probably bigger than, you know, in the America. Right. It's like if we're in the America modern Danish modern, you know, so, uh, we have to try and, uh, delineate somehow Chippendale's chairs, they, they become more rectilinear.
00:48:42
Speaker
Outward flaring ears at the top plumb ball feet Here's this is what I wrote down and this is something you picked up sharply articulated talons Smooth contours of pad and slipper feet Those slipper feet are funny
00:49:04
Speaker
So a lot of this stuff is built in Europe, these really fine pieces of Chippendale that we're looking at. And what happens is when it gets to America, it gets toned down a little bit. We tend to dumb things down a little bit here. Has that been our way all along? Let me see. Did I pull up this picture?
00:49:32
Speaker
That might be, I mean that might be an American Chippendale. Yeah, that's probably why I don't. Yeah, it looks like it from the description. Because his Chippendale designs were simplified and adapted in the second half of the 18th century. And you get two little branches that they called Country Chippendale and Irish Chippendale.
00:49:59
Speaker
Chippendale really being made in Ireland, right? I mean here in America We sort of have these dual Identities that other nations don't have like I'm an Italian American German American that that doesn't exist anywhere So when you say Irish Chippendale it happened in Ireland, right? But basically these were more you know of the local guys
00:50:27
Speaker
doing their best to imitate a Chippendale. Because like all crafts people, we have to go with the trends. Like we got that slat wall project.
00:50:44
Speaker
It's not something that we pulled out of our quiver. But the designer comes to us and says, this is what we want. So we do our best to replicate it. That's been happening forever.
00:50:59
Speaker
And with the native Chippendales, I'll call it, they were using local woods. Chippendales mahogany, as we'll learn later on, was not really available to the small producer. Now is this an example of a country Chippendale? Where'd we pull that? Is that the... That's the one right after here imported mahogany used in fashionable.
00:51:28
Speaker
You got right here. Yeah, that's prop. Yes, that's and and oh, yeah, cuz I'm looking at the world Yes and it um I Remember that's the one where I said yeah, you could see like it's you know mahogany. It's yeah, it looks It almost I don't know it could be walnut, huh? Yeah
00:51:55
Speaker
I remember remarking when I pulled up that photo that this was one of the rustic Chippendales with these flame finials and this whatever the hell you want to call this thing up here.
00:52:13
Speaker
Yeah. Is that a bird up in there? I don't know. A lot of times they had carvers, you know, like people who would just carve and then there was the cabinet maker. But you could see on the corner, those look like they're added on, right? Yeah. I don't know. No, they're in there.
00:52:35
Speaker
It's hard to tell all of this. What do you call this? Dental. It's not dental. It's more of like a Greek kind of. Yeah. That you would see on like a frieze. Right. You got the shell worked in here with the acanthus. Yeah. So this is a bit of a mishmash. Yeah. Ball and claw feet. Yeah. All around. But look at the sides. There's there's a lot of work going on on the sides, on the bottom. There's even carving.
00:53:08
Speaker
Yeah, so this is an example of... I guess this is made to be separated. Yeah. I guess this is a highboy, you would call it. Yeah, chest on chest. Yeah, so it has handles on the sides so that you could separate these two pieces, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Well, it looks awfully rustic to me. I could see this at the Blackthorn Resort. Yeah.
00:53:36
Speaker
It puts things in perspective, though, really. Yeah. I mean, just look at the look at the curl in this. Yeah. And look at the top, you know, just making that that curve all the way back. In this right here, it's. Yeah, you got those bat wing brasses. Now, this is starting to look like mahogany up here. Yeah. And these are green matched across. Yep.
00:54:06
Speaker
I mean, look at the side of the case. It's one board. Yeah, look at this. That's a 20 inch wide board. Yeah. Yeah, we're just marveling at it. You can see some signs of joint implosion there. Yeah, that's right.
00:54:28
Speaker
Not bad for, you know, a couple of hundred years old. Yeah. Some guy out in his shop behind the house like us. Yeah, with the dirt floor. Probably not a dirt floor, but yeah, probably would.
00:54:45
Speaker
So in New England, where the influence of immigrant craftsmen was minimal, cabinet makers relied primarily on shaped facades rather than ornamental carving to impart visual interest. That would be our next. Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah, if you scroll down, I remember. Yeah, see how the, I like this design where the bottom is bigger than the top. Yeah.
00:55:13
Speaker
Look at those book match panels there on the top. Yeah. Triple flame finial with the shell. Big, you know, Rams head pediment.
00:55:26
Speaker
We have grain flowing through the entire. Is this a drop drop? Yeah, it looks like it's like a secretary. You know, the hardware up there on top. It's amazing. And these are some of the more rustic designs that the local folks were making. That's crazy. That were, you know.
00:55:47
Speaker
interpretive of the design of the day. And in this case, it was Chippendale. You got the ball and claw feet. Yeah, turning almost more into a bracket foot. With these here and the very small squat. Have another shell at the bottom.
00:56:06
Speaker
And you can see where everybody's cognizant of the grain of the wood. This is something we've just gotten away from. This is basic furniture making. You know, the folks learn this from their master, whatever you would call the guy if you were an apprentice.
00:56:33
Speaker
That looks like that top. Everything is one piece of wood joined back together. Yeah, this is actually all carved. Yeah, yeah. I have little pullouts here. You could see the column work we were talking about. Yep. With the, with the, with the plaidios. Yeah, with the plinth and the pet and the capital and then.
00:56:58
Speaker
That's where it all comes in. The moldings or, you know, the carved molding on the top. Yeah. I mean, you can see back then, like furniture design was really based on architecture. And in some ways it kind of is now, but it's not as clear as it was then. Yeah. All of these. This is all
00:57:23
Speaker
Almost looks like laid stonework in a way, right? Yeah. You could see that being block. It's really nice. Yeah. And like you're saying about architecture.
00:57:40
Speaker
I mean, think about the architecture that we're in and among nowadays. You go to like these out here in the suburbs of New Jersey, you have a lot of what we call McMansions. Huge houses with no proportion at all. You know, you go into them, there's no sense of space or any of that. And this piece is just beautiful. Yeah.
00:58:11
Speaker
So I'll move on. And you touched on this. Leisure activities become more commonplace in the late colonial period.
Furniture and Social Changes
00:58:22
Speaker
Greater prosperity, widespread pursuit of refinement. So now people are starting to make
00:58:33
Speaker
Different types of furniture, you know, everything we've looked at up to this point has either been some kind of chest or chair Now you have tea tables card tables specialized furniture That there was no need for in the early days who's who's gonna work or a card table
00:58:57
Speaker
Yeah, I play cards on my phone. All right. So by 1750, Philadelphia surpasses Boston as the largest colonial city. So now, again, just events are starting to influence and determine what's going on with furniture. Right. There's more immigrants
00:59:24
Speaker
Immigrant artisans trained in the latest European fashions are creating lavish interiors and furnishings for Georgian style homes of Philadelphia's mercantile elite. So what does that mean? These people that are making their money buying and selling, importing, exporting.
00:59:44
Speaker
They are building these huge homes and trying to emulate, you know, the rich folk, the land of gentry in Europe. Yep. Man, I wish there was money like that getting spent around here. Yeah. Those people had taste back then. Now they have people who have taste. That's a problem.
01:00:08
Speaker
New York. All right. New York makes an appearance. New York also benefits from a big surge in immigration in the years preceding the revolution. So we're still pre-revolutionary.
01:00:25
Speaker
I see here as I'm, you know, reading and learning. I'm always at Wikipedia. You can't trust it, you know, in and of itself. I check Wikipedia, Britannica. The museum websites are really good for this stuff. Yeah. Almost all of these photos are from the Met Museum. Yeah. Yeah. They had the best quality images I found.
01:00:50
Speaker
down in New York, as opposed to like up in Boston, you have more loyalists, people who are more strongly tied to Europe. And that kind of tells you maybe why Newport, Rhode Island, sort of, you know, in the backyard of Massachusetts,
01:01:10
Speaker
is developing their own signature style, whereas in New York, they're kind of just mimicking the European styles.
01:01:23
Speaker
That's exactly what I got ahead of myself. I've read and written this thing so many times, I'm trying to follow along my script. By contrast, the most original American furniture was made in Newport, Rhode Island, as opposed to New York, Philadelphia, where there were native cabinet makers up in Newport.
01:01:50
Speaker
And we're going to touch on Townsend, Goddard. Pete Townsend? Yeah, I don't know. There could be a relationship there. You know, you're related to Disbrow, so we don't know. Disbrow. Disbrow. Don't start that Jack of Bean thing.
01:02:08
Speaker
I also note here and we've said it before the transition from all these things but Queen Anne to Chippendale It's not immediate. It's not universal. You know, it's happening
01:02:23
Speaker
faster in some places think about like before the internet how like people on the coast would dress compared to people in the midwest right you know they would like it would be 1990
01:02:39
Speaker
But they're still wearing those leggings over their jeans in places like acid wash, Des Moines. So that's kind of what happens with furniture at this time as well. The news doesn't travel. Fashion and style doesn't travel at the same rate.
01:03:00
Speaker
and populations influence what's accepted. Outside major cities, change is really gradual and sometimes it's not even perceivable. People are far more isolated and insulated. So in the out of boroughs,
01:03:25
Speaker
You might, you might find some guy still, still making a caroling. You're making a heart for chest? Come on, it's 1730. Nevertheless, I write. It's like the people in the Midwest wearing like Ed Hardy t-shirts. What is it, 2006?
01:03:50
Speaker
And nevertheless, by the 1780s, and now we're basically marking the end of colonial.
Shift to Federal Style
01:04:01
Speaker
And I guess they call it colonial because it's the revolution. They're using the revolution to mark that time. Sweeping curves of Queen Anne and the exuberant ornament of the Rococo were giving way to renewed interest in classical precedents.
01:04:19
Speaker
I have to say this example you have here of the main New York, this to me is starting to look very federal. That's it. That's where we're coming. You have these big bracket feet in the back. It's very rectilinear, much more simplified. This is with a big freeze there. You lose the pediment and the big shells and stuff.
01:04:43
Speaker
That's exactly it. That's the that's, you know, basically the next dominant form. And it's you could look at the jump, you know, you go from from that to federal. I wonder what that says about
01:05:03
Speaker
you know the mindset people wanna make a clean break and so. Now with the federal style people are are trying to find their feet with with something new it's like we're gonna have to ditch all this stuff that came over from europe yeah what we got left. So you can go back to the classics.
01:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, which I think I'm not I don't really know a lot about federal. But yeah, when I think of federal, I think more of like a Greek kind of influence. And you see the pediments over doors and stuff start to just be just like straight peaks, right, rather than these big Rams head sort of pediments. The fruit, you know, have those freeze details that that scream sort of Greek.
01:05:48
Speaker
Well, I'll be interested to see because I don't know right now if federal and Greek revival are related Yeah Because I think there are some elements of that. Mm-hmm
01:06:03
Speaker
Uh, but yeah, the, the curves disappear and the lines, the straight lines make a comeback. Um, all, you know, at the end of, uh, the revolutionary period, um, well, you know, that that's going to become a topic as we go through this time period because it's unavoidable. I mean, it's, it's, it's a formation of America as we know it. Um,
01:06:32
Speaker
So we'll of course have played a part. Let me summarize and then we'll discuss. Boston's the first prominent center of furniture production. The clean and style chair is developed and thousands get exported to the other colonies.
01:06:57
Speaker
What I didn't know was Walnut really wasn't prevalent up in New England. So when they were exporting these chairs, Walnut was coming back from like Virginia, Mid-Atlantic. And that's how Walnut made its way up into New England.
01:07:17
Speaker
Philly responds with their version of the Queen Anne. We noted that. And New York's loyalist immigrant population. Bastards. They kind of respond as well. They'll get theirs. Yeah.
01:07:37
Speaker
Whereas Boston, New York and Philadelphia, they're all still working in the vernacular of Europe.
Newport's Divergence from European Styles
01:07:45
Speaker
But Newport, Newport, Rhode Island really becomes America's first original American design. And I ended up with Chippendale Arrives. Yeah, the real spearhead of the
01:08:07
Speaker
I was gonna say the maker movement, you know, where it starts to become about the actual, you know, the guy who's making the furniture. It's not this is the style of this king who's in power right now. No, this is Chippendale came up with this. I like that. I like that. I'm sure people will relate to it. Yeah. This was a pretty interesting segment for me. You know, I learned so much while picking up all this stuff.
01:08:36
Speaker
I mean, just even time and place. I had no idea that Chippendale was this old, I'll say. I didn't know he was so closely related to the Jacobean period. I mean, you're talking 50 years.
01:08:53
Speaker
And the impact it had, I didn't even grasp until I started seeing it, you know, more and more. What do you think?
01:09:10
Speaker
I didn't know that I had such a a taste for Queen Anne furniture, you know, because you see so much so many bad examples. Yeah. You know, when you see the good ones like, wow. Yeah, those chests, especially the simpler ones, I'm not not big on the heavy ornamentation.
01:09:35
Speaker
I'd like to have one. I mean, if I had, like, this is something I would probably do in retirement. Like, you know, spend the months that I would need to learn all the skills to make a chest like that. Because we, I mean, we, we made a big chest and it probably went, how long did it take us? Three weeks to make that?
01:09:58
Speaker
Yeah, I don't remember something like that. You know, and we learned a few skills a long way. You made bracket feet, you carved those panels by hand. It was solid cherry, so we glued up all the panels and made a similar attempt in that way. Yep. Much simpler top. Yeah, yeah.
01:10:26
Speaker
But definitely an homage to these sort of Queen Anne. Yeah. It was a, you know, it was kind of an amalgamation of a couple of different stuff. Yeah. We had a different, a little different aesthetic coming from our design shop. Yeah. And there was, you know, there was constraints that we were working with. Right. The client called in.
01:10:46
Speaker
They played their their angst. We had much to watch the grin. Try is that word again. Yeah. To fit different elements in that were, you know, sort of requirements of the design into and the.
01:11:03
Speaker
and the functionality and the limitations of space and material and all those things so yeah we kind of ended up this mishmash of like a bunch of different things certain things we would have you know like those feet had to be so small because the ceiling is only so big so it's all then we got to fit all these elements inside the bottom and inside the top and so yeah it ended up being exactly the bottom case had to be a certain height so that the hot water unit would fit in it
01:11:31
Speaker
the total height was restrained by the ceiling. So that limited and then we had things in the top. We had to make the top a certain height just to
01:11:42
Speaker
make it look somewhat close to proportion. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was really tough. So that's, that's it for this week. Yeah. We had some, uh, some good vocabulary, a Jack of bean. Yeah. Codify. I think, uh, we might be finding our groove a little bit into the new, new, um,
01:12:02
Speaker
Format yeah, it's a dog up there you hear Just crying the floor guy yeah He knows he's got to be quiet. It's podcast day. You know you had to get up and strut. He's quite anyway We got to thank the gold tier patrons. We have Adam podcast Colin lie Corey tie David Murphy David Shoemaker
01:12:25
Speaker
Jerry Greenen, Keith Drennan, Manny Seriani. Thanks, guys. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I'll say, you know, in case you didn't know, somewhere in my Maker's Camp t-shirt. That's right. I wore mine yesterday. Yeah. Nice, nice little part of our gift bag. Yeah. Fits, fits nicely. Yeah. They're actually the same t-shirts that we have for Green Street. Oh, really? Yeah.
01:12:48
Speaker
Nice. Yeah. No wonder it fit right way. I want to mention vesting finishes. Mm hmm. They make hard wax oils. You know, if you've ever used Rubio Monoco, it's the same same sort of finish. We got turned on to them.
01:13:04
Speaker
We'll ring the dog's neck. Got turned on to them about two weeks ago. One of the owners of the company, Zach, came out, demoed the finishes for us. We got to hang out with him for a better part of a day.
01:13:20
Speaker
super nice guy the finish is really nice we did a bunch of samples even side by side with Rubio and I don't know to me it goes on a little nicer it wipes off better it feels dry faster
01:13:35
Speaker
You know, it's basically the same exact price point as Rubio made in Holland versus Belgium. I mean, I'm a big fan of it so far. I think we're, you know, we've made the switch basically from from Rubio over to Vesting. But if you're interested, you can save 10% with the Code American Craftsman.
01:13:56
Speaker
It'll be on they sell through their their partners websites like our RPM coding solution something like that if you Google vesting USA You'll find it. They're they're based out of Pennsylvania the American branch of the company So if you use American craftsman you get 10% off
01:14:17
Speaker
And they're not hopping on Rubio. They've been doing this for 60 years. Oh, yeah, yeah. They've been around for a long time. They just haven't really been in America. Right. Yeah, they have, you know, 40 colors, I think, in the U.S. and Europe. They have like over 100 colors. They have this really cool LED cured finish, which we're going to be making a little video about.
01:14:40
Speaker
not for the casual user finish. It's an investment to get into the light and stuff. You know, the light is several thousand dollars. It's more of like a production sort of thing, but you can put on, it's a hard wax oil. You can put it on, hit it with this light and it's cured instantly, you know, versus seven day cure with the regular finish.
01:15:02
Speaker
Yeah, nice stuff. Yeah. Well, let's wrap up. I gotta go see the dog is crying upstairs. I'm gonna see what the hell he's doing. You don't wanna just go out? The poor guy. He doesn't do that. Well, we appreciate it. We'll see you here in about 10 minutes for the next episode. Yeah, one in the books. Yeah, we'll see you. You'll be listening to that in about three weeks from now. Right. Yeah. Ciao. All right. Bye.
01:15:41
Speaker
Ain't no shame, but there's been a chain