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Young Justice Season 4: Episodes 8 & 9
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Zuhair is joined by returning guest Andrew Rogers to discuss episodes 8 and 9 of Young Justice season 4 (Phantoms) currently airing on HBOmax!
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Transcript
Intro & Episode Overview
00:00:01
Speaker
On this episode of Animation Deliberation, we are continuing our coverage of Young Justice episodes 8 and 9. We get the end of one arc and the beginning of the other right after this ad. We have no control over.
00:00:12
Speaker
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00:00:39
Speaker
and one two three four it's animation deliberation a conversation and a celebration of a favorite action animated series yeah yeah welcome back to animation deliberation where we take animation seriously but not too seriously i'm your host suhara lee jay scotty once more is on the javelin with steel so we have the always enthused andra writers how are you
00:01:08
Speaker
I am fantastic and ready for my call to arms as always. Always ready. So I did not know that an episode came out last week. I learned that today. Okay, that would make a little bit of sense as to why you weren't ready for it.
00:01:27
Speaker
Yeah, because I was actually fully prepared to just, so timeline-wise, last week, a week from yesterday was Thanksgiving, and I just figured for the holidays it was a new episode, because every time I checked it just didn't show up. So I was like, cool, because I was prepared to just like, leave my family, sit in the car and just like, record something real quick, just so somebody would have something. And I was like, oh cool, I guess they just skipped, I don't have to worry about that anymore.
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah, no, there was there was still an episode. I watched it late that night. Yeah. No, no one told me. So, yeah, just doing both of these now.
Themes of Grief in Episode 8
00:02:06
Speaker
That's fine. More for us to talk about. I like it that way. All right. So eight. I know why the caged cat sings. This is the ending of Art and Mrs. Arc. A lot of grief to unpack.
00:02:24
Speaker
lot of grief that was developed. Interesting family theme and vibe going on consistently through it. A lot of flashback stuff, a lot of bringing up things of episode or season one. What'd you think of it overall wrapping up this article?
00:02:42
Speaker
Um, it was definitely a slow wrap up. The first half was the little bit of the action. And then the second half was talking about kind of the family motifs. Like you mentioned, I thought it was a good wrap up because it's a really interesting story. And any bit of the bat family is always going to have my intrigue, but they did a lot of interesting things, like you said, and then this continuation of the, uh, super boy.
00:03:07
Speaker
End of arc that we had going on was also really heavy mixed in with all of the other grief. So It was good. I I mean they tell such phenomenal stories and they they did a really good job rounding this out But it was a it was another heavy one another tearjerker Following Thanksgiving. Yeah, right But we are thankful for the show continuing its service
00:03:31
Speaker
I am thankful for both Young Justice and Animation Deliberation.
00:03:44
Speaker
I don't want to phrase this. Explaining death to a kid, there's no way that could be an easy concept or like an easy thing to explain. And for them to bring that is like one of the many topics that they cover. It's like, hey, how do you deal with grief? How do you talk about grief? This and that. How do you explain it to a child? Of course, if anybody's the person to do it, it's Superman. Like leave it to him to just find a way to just like perfectly be like, this is what's going on, bud.
00:04:15
Speaker
Yeah, I really think they also did it a little bit for the audience because if you remember back when I was here at the start of the season, I was in denial about Superboy. I was like, no, this is not happening. We joked about the grief, but it was
Superman's Humanity & Growth
00:04:28
Speaker
very real between the two of us. I felt like Superman was talking to me. I needed the strong father figure to say, look, this is what's going on. So yeah, you're right. Superman was the only person that could really bring that point home.
00:04:43
Speaker
But then still seeing his grief after the fact when he had to talk to Lois about it was so. I don't want to say heavy, because obviously it was emotional, but it was a it was a real look at the humanity of Superman. And I know you've talked time and again how this is your favorite Superman, and I could not agree more. He is the most human Kryptonian I think we've seen from DC.
00:05:10
Speaker
Yeah, there was a lot of regret with all of that too. Like the fact that he was like 10 years ago, like I was being selfish. I had the opportunity to help him and develop him and this and that. It's like now he has survivor's guilt. Like the fact that he's supposed to be invincible and if he was there five minutes earlier, he could have helped. You know, in lowest head of town was like, no, you probably would be dead too.
00:05:35
Speaker
But that's not a concept for Superman. It's his job to save, feeling that nothing can ever stop him from doing that. So to see that breakdown, it's why characters like Itachi and Bakugo and the characters who always had that hard face but had that moment of breaking down, it was beautifully done because we didn't even need to see him in too many action scenes. We know who Superman is. We know what Superman's capable of.
00:06:02
Speaker
And they did a really good job at just him being beat up by himself. Yeah, I couldn't agree more this Superman.
00:06:15
Speaker
He's been through so much. I think that's the biggest part of it is So often we see Superman one or two years into his craft. This is Superman Gosh ten years since the start of Young Justice the Justice League had to have been a Thing for at least five to ten years before that very recent. So yeah, this is a very
00:06:38
Speaker
seasoned Superman at this point so he he's doing it but like you said he was gonna jump into action and probably would have died himself that's exactly what Connor did was say I don't care what happens I'm gonna save all these people so he definitely learned or they learned from each other I don't know who really learned from who all the time but it's good to acknowledge that great father-son dynamic brother-brother
00:07:07
Speaker
They say brothers, but technically he has two dads.
00:07:10
Speaker
He does have two dads. We don't talk about Luther. No, which we haven't seen much of him this season yet either. But yeah, it was, um, for, for the next episode, not to get into it early. Like we have the perspective of Garfield too, and what he's dealing with in this and that. But, you know, at the beginning of this series, like we wanted to see more of this Superman story and kind of expanding on how he feels. And he actually did.
00:07:40
Speaker
go into a little bit of detail of what he was feeling throughout the progression of his experience with Connor. So to kind of answer those questions of what he was like in this rendition of Superman, I was pretty fulfilled with what they gave. For sure. I think that was it for that point, except poor Wolf was howling for Connor all the time.
00:08:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Cotton onions over here. But anyhow, that was only a small part of this episode. Uh, the real story was between Artemis and, uh, Cheshire.
League of Shadows' Family Dynamics
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah. A lot of flashbacks with that too. Like we did see scenes from season one and like, um, where they were and how they got to where they are.
00:08:38
Speaker
Cheshire has a lot on her shoulders. Yeah. I mean, that whole family does like not, they don't have a clean backstory. They never came from anything good, but now they're trying to find their way in the world. And then you also just mix in the entire league of shadows, which doesn't do anything, but corrupt people come to find out. So what's Raza's objective now with the league?
00:09:08
Speaker
So he is not in charge of the League as we discovered. He is just kind of doing his own thing on Infinity Island. It's his, I think he called it a quote unquote family with Talia, Damian, Jason, Sensei, and like that's it.
00:09:31
Speaker
And then he invited in Cheshire and Onyx and basically I think is going to take care of them and say, find your way in the world. But that feels very not Rachelle Ghoul to just give up the goose like that.
00:09:49
Speaker
What if it actually was foreshadowing when they were talking about how it's like, oh no, we just manipulated. We made you exactly how you need to be for you to join us and be loyal. Like, what if down the road, we're actually going to have issues with Onyx and Cheshire not being as compliant as they would have hoped? The only reason I don't think that's going to be the case is for the repeated line from season three of Dick Grayson. Rachelle Ghoul is many things, but a liar is not one of them.
00:10:17
Speaker
I would have assumed he was up to no good, but I feel like he's gonna be fine. Talia might be up to something. Maybe.
00:10:27
Speaker
Because I was just learning very closely so she can figure out how to get Bruce back to her. Well, that was the story I need breaking down more to. Yeah, I'm very surprised that we did not get any closure. They still have yet to reveal who the Red Hooded Ninja is. So again, we've said it on the show, but they have
00:10:48
Speaker
held it all very close to the chest and i'm wondering if so we're assuming all of our main six characters are getting an arc is the dick grayson arc going to involve those two potential robins it could i mean it seems like all the arrow people are part of the bat family now anyways
00:11:11
Speaker
Yeah, that is true. I mean, it's interesting that, as you say, the arrow people that Oliver Queen has not come back up in any capacity in all of this. Yeah, we stuck an area a couple of times, but that's it. Yeah. I thought Lady Shiva was dead.
00:11:30
Speaker
Oh, the that sword went through her I thought I honestly thought we were gonna have a orphan like Somewhat villain turn like she wasn't gonna return back to everyone. That was gonna be her moment that she can't be redeemed from I Would have been that would have been very Brion of them That's true anything all over again. I
00:11:52
Speaker
But that whole fight scene, as you talk about Lady Shiva possibly being dead, that in the dark, everything being silhouette in blue, except for the blood and the colors of their eyes was...
00:12:05
Speaker
It was phenomenally done that was easier to track than the season finale of Game of Thrones But yeah being able to understand like how the fight is going and like who's doing what and just like a little detail in each person's eyes to make them stand out and know who you're looking at like that that was a really clean fight scene for something that was just like two-tone if that
Cheshire's Maternal Instincts
00:12:32
Speaker
I mean it was an artistic choice and it was a beautiful one at that they knew how to make it so very clear as to who was fighting who as well as the choreography being
00:12:45
Speaker
very good from an amateur martial arts perspective. I don't know if you have any thoughts. No negative thoughts. It was really fun to watch. It was really cool, really easy to track knowing who's doing what. Of course, I felt like Black Spider probably would have had an advantage in that situation if he just knew how to shut up. They didn't need to see him. They could hear him.
00:13:08
Speaker
Yeah, like I admire his commentary. I just love every time he opens his mouth. But this is like, dude, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot right here. Oh, for sure. But on the topic of that whole fight scene, I wanted your thoughts on it was another really good growing moment out of Artemis that
00:13:27
Speaker
Oracle said, you know, Orphan can't take on Lady Shiva, she's not ready for that. And Artemis said, oh, okay, I'll take over. And I immediately thought to myself, no, no, Artemis or Tigris, whatever you would like to refer to, whereas you're not ready for this, you're still our amateur on the team.
00:13:44
Speaker
No, that was 10 years ago that she was an amateur on the team. She is a full fledged, like, superhero. I wanted to protect her in my head. I'm like, no, wait, she's the one doing the protecting here. It was another perfect show of growth that she was able to take on Lady Shiva, a light enforcer. Like, that's no small task.
00:14:03
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of think of it as the same way, too, where it's just kind of like, no, you're going to die. Don't do that. Bad idea. Very bad idea. Especially because she took a couple of good hits, too, which was really scary. It's like, uh-oh. And the knife through the leg. That wasn't exactly a small blow. Oh, and Cheshire was so concerned about her, too. I mean, this is the most concern I think we've ever seen out of Cheshire, period, though.
00:14:31
Speaker
Yeah, right. That was more for that. Well, that one time she like got called on the emergency phone. That was like emergency only, but it was for a kid. Yeah, I think, I think I'll tie those a little together. Well, there was also the scene in this of her running away. That was pretty emotional too, of seeing her daughter with the Cheshire mask.
00:14:57
Speaker
Oh yeah. She was like, Oh, she's ready. This is actually gonna happen. Oh, nope. You, you messed it up kid. Good job. She just wants to be like her mom. It's, it's so cute, but then she doesn't want her to be like her or the dad like in the line. Make it stop. Live happy with the clone. Yeah.
00:15:23
Speaker
It's, there was a lot of nature versus nurture at the end there. It's, it's always an interesting conversation because yeah, having two super people from the same family, but on different sides, that's, that's gotta be weird. A little difficult to grow up with. Oh, for sure. Have you heard them say mouse and cat before?
00:15:51
Speaker
Because I thought that was the first time I heard Auntie Mouse. They said Cat and Mouse, I think, in the previous episode.
00:16:02
Speaker
because it was, that's where kind of Cheshire came from. She was the cat and her little sister was like the little mouse. I know they said it during this arc a couple of times, but I was wondering, did this come up previously and we just never knew or because they were never really sisterly, we never got to hear it. Like what, where did that come from? But I agree that was totally new. I hadn't heard that before.
00:16:26
Speaker
Yeah, because I figured like Leon may have said it at some point. That's what I was wondering if it had come up another season. That's something that you just recently started saying. But it is cool. I just kind of like made up a story and just kind of caught us to believe it was something that was attended all along. Just really well done with this show. They're, they're so good at putting so much care for characters in such a short amount of time. Oh, for sure. They, they deserve all the storytelling credits that we give them.
00:16:57
Speaker
How do you feel about Onyx? I don't know if I trust her. I get where they were going of, okay, she turned over a new leaf here at the end, but it still feels like this weird double, double, double cross that they're trying to do, where she's really secretly still going to be working for the league. Yeah, like what is your motive now? Like, what did she really gain out of any of that?
00:17:26
Speaker
escaping the league like that was her weird thing was trying to escape but I Don't know I'm feeling about her how I feel about forger where it's like This this story really need to be here This person really needs to be here well every story needs to be told because there's a reason for everything as we well know but Yeah, I'm not totally sure what the endgame is with that
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah, she's also kind of like rocket as well where it's just kind of like it's it's not a character I'm really gonna keep track of like just okay person's there onyx just here now Yeah, apparently this is gonna keep checking on her. Okay Yeah, cuz there was that weird moment where they were on the
00:18:17
Speaker
not by a ship, but the Sphere bike. As soon as they got off the island, both Artemis and Cheshire took their masks off like, oh, we can trust you now. And I was like, is it that easy? Now that you know one of them is not a mole, okay, I guess Onyx is okay. Very good. That was a question that I had for sure. Thank you for being honest with us.
00:18:42
Speaker
Oh man, the villain monologue in this was so long, like this full recap of like, I fooled you because you were trying to fool them for fooling this person was like, oh my god, making me dizzy. I personally loved it though, for the fact it wasn't a monologue. They didn't just do that to do it.
00:19:01
Speaker
Artemis egged them on. Artemis was buying time purposefully.
Artemis' Strategic Defiance
00:19:06
Speaker
Like, obviously it was still a monologue at the end of the day, but it wasn't the usual tropey, I have you trapped, Mr. Bond. I'm going to talk to you for 10 minutes while you escape while I could have pulled the lever. Like, no, they were legitimately saying, we'll talk to you, we'll let you go free, but orphan has to stay while in reality they were stalling for time. I thought that was just a nice little nod of, hey, these villains aren't that stupid.
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was interesting because is Artemis leading them on? Do they know and just feel like boasting to the healthy balance of both? You can look at it anyway. Oh, for sure. And but going back to Ross, I'll go a little bit
00:19:52
Speaker
It was interesting how ballsy Artemis is because the second that he came on screen, everybody bowed down, including Onyx, including Cheshire. Except for Artemis. Cocky ass, just like, separation. Yeah, that's a bold move, for sure. I'm surprised Sensei didn't beat her ass just for that.
00:20:15
Speaker
Yeah, but at the same time, when you looked at all of the people in that group, every single other one of them was a shadow at some point or another. She was the only one that never was technically in the league. Yeah. So they're all trained from, well, not birth, but from a very young age to be doing that. So.
00:20:39
Speaker
It's so inviting. Artemis is trying to be all hard-headed and everything. She's like, yeah, come back whenever. That's fine. You can crash with us. There's always a couch here for you. Oh, it's a flat slab. That's probably about as nice as it gets on Infinity Island. Maybe. Maybe they sleep on the palm trees. Very peaceful. Very peaceful.
00:21:09
Speaker
Anything else from this episode?
Mature Content on HBO Max
00:21:13
Speaker
Well, we'll get into it more in this next episode, but I wanted to bring it up because I did notice they're definitely playing around with the rating this season. I know we've talked about since they went to HBO Max, there's no longer technically a PG rating on the show. When Lady Shiva jumped through Shades Portal,
00:21:33
Speaker
She sliced both of the shadows clean in half covered in blood I was like okay we're we're actually kind of doing this a little bit now it's not like it used to be where it's like oh it's a little bit going on and this was the taste and the next episode that we'll talk about here is the the main course
00:21:57
Speaker
Yeah, that's going to be off, because Lady Shiva was just speaking with such class, and then she was just going manic by the time that was going on. So she was just like, just get out of my way, you useless trash. Just want to splat it all over. She's lost all composure. She's lost all focus. It's just like, get me my assassin daughter back. Yeah, it was amazing.
Magic Arc Introduction
00:22:22
Speaker
I think that kind of moves on to because now I can't stop thinking about the other scene. This this next episode does like a really cool job at like balancing these new characters and the opener was just like so well done with the little taste of like what this magic realm is like. But after having that beautiful scale, the balance scale between the what is it chaos and
00:22:52
Speaker
uh chaos and darkness i feel like they had a more significant name than darkness or no darkness is chaos isn't it yeah um i'm not sure darn i can't remember what it was i know they were the big yellow crystals and the big red crystals which yeah they colors
00:23:14
Speaker
Well, I was wondering, and I will pitch the question to you, do you think those crystals, those red ones specifically, will have any significance to characters that we might see make a fresh appearance? Like who? I would say there's a notable character that has a red crystal in her forehead that was given to her by her father, whom also lives in a red crystal.
00:23:40
Speaker
That I was, uh, the minute I saw that I was wondering, are we going to get another OG teen Titan member? We've gotten one of each of the three proceeding seasons. Is this, uh, is this her season to make an appearance? Yeah. I, I think she deserves to pop in, especially if we are hitting in a very intense magic arc. Yeah. And I think that would also set up the big bad of, uh, possibly try again very well.
00:24:11
Speaker
if that's who it would be. So all of them are just kids and then there's just trigons, just demons.
00:24:19
Speaker
You never know. There are a number of demons in DC. I know you're a fan of Justice League Dark with myself. Yeah, so good. Once you start getting into the nitty gritty of DC and demons and mythology and like, most people don't realize that the show that ended last year, Lucifer on Netflix was technically a DC comic because the devil canonically exists in DC Universe. Yeah, there's a lot of mystical stuff that they can go into. So I wouldn't be surprised if
00:24:49
Speaker
it is a demon of some capacity fighting against a bunch of children that wouldn't be the first time yeah that would be it would be cool i i do like her entrance just popping up and you know they talk about the anchor which the cat is for um what was his name uh clarion clarion your your your favorite character yeah well well well you always go for the cat
00:25:17
Speaker
You do such a good impression. We hear a lot about the cat anchor and he definitely reminded us of it through some constructive dialogue. Well, I was going to ask, is this the first backstory we've really gotten for Clarion?
00:25:32
Speaker
Cause I don't feel like I knew that he's been around as long as, uh, Savage has been. Yeah. I mean, he trash talks Dr. Fate all the time. So it doesn't surprise me that he's been around for a few millennia. That is true. I didn't realize that went like way back. Yeah. I, I assumed that like he was a newer version of an old fate. Like he wasn't, it wasn't clarion the whole time. Like.
00:26:00
Speaker
They took over new hosts every so often or something like that. That's kind of how I imagined it. I didn't imagine child Clarion being it forever. Yeah, maybe that's how the light magic works is not only do you need an anchor, but you need a medium as well. But they can at least like exist within their medium where it's like,
00:26:27
Speaker
The chaos sorcerer is just nothing without that anchor being there. Yeah, that could be an interesting dichotomy because we know Dr. Fate has to take the actual body. Whereas, and he's probably the light magic. So having these dark ones have the anchor that they're not taking over but is also just adjacent to them. That's an interesting thought. I also wonder if child, I guess that's her name,
00:26:58
Speaker
Yes. Has met Vandal before because the stone that was her anchor. Wasn't it like the the crystal of Atlantis or something like that? Yes, it was. So maybe they've interacted before, which is why Clayron's like, oh, snap, this trick's here. Yeah, the the line of why would you send her of all people? Yeah, that was a yeah, I have no idea.
00:27:25
Speaker
But it would make some sense because that little name drop of meet me back in this village called Atlantis. Yeah. There's so many interesting layers to the Vandal Savage story of alternate history that possibilities are endless. They really are, really are. But, uh, I feel like we're dancing around our favorite part of this episode, the zoo hair.
00:27:53
Speaker
She's so beautiful. She is. I need her in my life. Number one crush in all of Young Justice, Zatanna, is back. Yeah, it's hard to get around that. Whenever you try to drift somewhere else, it's like, nope, Miss Perfect is back. She is, and now she's leading a team of young characters.
00:28:17
Speaker
yeah she sounds like she's having so much fun teaching but now i'm like questioning how good she is at it just because she only has the three students out of her best students her first students i just love the confidence she says i did like it's just so perfect she has so much fun in this episode like no we don't need to fly there let's take a carousel so we can go on our merry way like that is the kind of
00:28:43
Speaker
lovable magic that, like, if I had magic, I would do silly things like that, you know? Even the sashie says her spells in like da da da da da da da. It's all so good. So so good. And speaking of her spells, did you notice the name of this episode? Odd new? Odd new. Do you do you know why it's called odd new or enlightening?
00:29:13
Speaker
Um, all of Zatanna's spells are just words backwards. So this, the title of this episode is just called undo.
00:29:24
Speaker
Yeah. Um, I don't know if that's going to be the motif moving forward for this arc, but yeah, all of her spells are words backwards. And I, I picked up on a few of them. I was trying to listen to all of her spells. Like it was returned backwards when they landed on the carousel and sent them back to the park that they were in. I'm assuming central parks since they were in Manhattan. Um, yeah. Someone needs to make a feature where, uh, words that are spoken come up on the screen on a TV show or movie.
00:29:56
Speaker
be like little titles subtitles i am now questioning i usually watch with subtitles did i actually not this week was i so engrossed and i hear it i don't need to read it i'll figure this out myself uh calling me out like that i have to do it from time to time come on you know i'm a subbed anime guy i'm i'm used to subtitles
00:30:21
Speaker
I didn't read them backwards, but yeah, the next few episode titles are... backwards. That makes some sense. Well... yeah. So all of her spells are backwards, and then she has her three protégé wherein...
00:30:37
Speaker
I was not paying enough attention to see if they were all using the same magic. We know Mary wasn't, but I wasn't picking up on the two others. I mean, she kind of explained what it is. One was bending nature, so manipulating nature, which is why they made the little frog pixie fat and how he was bending the trees and stuff.
00:31:00
Speaker
Uh, one is basically a little Shazam, which is weird to say now, cause he was 10 when they introduced him to us. And now he's probably 20. Yeah. Um, I believe she's like a childhood friend of his in most iterations. And then, wait, but she's the child now, isn't she? I would put her around that 20 Mark. Um, if I had to, I was thinking 15 ish.
00:31:30
Speaker
I have to imagine she's the same age as Billy Batson. She could be a few centuries younger. Let's see. Well, her birth year is 2000. That's all that is given to be on the wiki. So if we're assuming that it's in some modern time, I would put her around 2021. I'll give it to you.
00:31:56
Speaker
I was just basing it off of her composure. So she has a third of Shazam's powers? Yes, I believe it was a third that she said. That's very young justice. Like, hey, here's the actual hero. This is the little version that only has part of the stuff. Yeah. The sidekick serum. It was interesting that she actually had to say the words to use the powers.
00:32:25
Speaker
Yeah. I didn't know if that was by choice or like that's actually how her powers work. That could have been for us too. Just to know like what she was accessing and give a better idea of like where she was getting it from. And cause they didn't explain 13 at all. And when they finally explained the power that it had to do with luck, like influencing luck. That's when I was like, Oh, 13 bad luck. That makes so much sense now. Yeah. And this isn't the first time we've seen 13 either.
00:32:57
Speaker
So yeah, that was a nice nod. I actually didn't pick up on the 13. So thank you for explaining that. And then the last one was Khalid Khalid was specifically in the throat. That was what they call it. Well, either way, he was also new. I don't believe we've seen him before in any capacity either.
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah, so two of them are brand spanking new. It is it is cool that they actually put the emphasis on like how to pronounce the name. I was like, Oh, I've heard a Khalid so much that I forgot how it was like how you actually say it. I I appreciated it. And I knew you would too. It was kind of bothersome because I feel like in the next moment is a Tana then pronounced it the wrong way again, though.
00:33:50
Speaker
No, she actually did it the right way and so did everybody following. Well, that's good. Oh, that's so cool. So yeah, we have our new little band of heroes that don't seem confident enough to be taking on threats that are going to be involving Dr. Fate. I mean, they were kind of holding
Zatanna's Magic Team
00:34:08
Speaker
their own. Like I was surprised they were responding as quick as they were in those fight situations against a chaos or for child.
00:34:17
Speaker
Yeah, but that was more Zatanna's doing because she is extremely powerful in most iterations. So I'm curious what happens. Yeah. They're all grown up. I remember them when they were babies. We've watched them grow up. I've grown up along with them.
00:34:44
Speaker
But yeah, and then so you talk about them fighting agents of chaos. How did you react to seeing the body when they entered the jewelry store? Oh!
00:34:59
Speaker
That's, I love how our transition was so that we could talk about that and the gore in this. And like now we're getting to that point. I kind of forgot that was what the transition was. We took every detour out of the way. It's like, Oh, guess we're back. Yeah. Cause I mean, we can't not talk about it. Yeah. That was graphic. Like all she did was slice that one dude. I was like, huh, do I look like that in there? Yeah.
00:35:25
Speaker
Cause there was the moment early on where there was the big blood splatter next to her and she's like, oh, this body's cute. And then left. I was like, okay, we're going to leave it on that. That's still a lot of blood, but all right. We didn't want to show it. That's totally fine. I did not expect us to open on.
00:35:44
Speaker
and art projects pretty much. Yeah. That's that's my point. Like that's what it looked like. I could have walked into like a museum of history and seen that made out of clay and would not be surprised. Yeah. And I guess Howard went to medical school or something at some point. So he was like, yeah, this is how you look at anatomy. Like this some alien came down and started doing a research project.
00:36:09
Speaker
Yeah, and it just shows how this world is. They're not alarmed that something not from this world showed up. They're alarmed at what it did. Yeah. What did you learn? Yeah, seriously. All I was thinking though, like this show is not for kids anymore. I feel like they need to have a little warning on there because that caught me very... Yeah. I'm okay with most of those things, but I was still like, whoa, whoa, we're showing this? Okay.
00:36:39
Speaker
Even the way that one of the kids said damn straight, I was like, yeah, you wouldn't see that on Cartoon Network. No, we're past Cartoon Network. Oh, past it. Thank you. I don't want to say that it's adult animation, because that just sounds wrong, but this is... It's animation for adults.
00:37:01
Speaker
Sure, that sounds better. Uh, Zuhair, you're on a podcast specifically talking about animation as an adult with another adult. I think we can, I think you're in good company. I think all of the listeners would agree, but yeah, I think that was the craziest part of the episode. And I will say this is the first one that really left me wanting more.
00:37:26
Speaker
Like all of the other ones were good and I was like, okay, where's the story going to go next? This one ended and I was like, that can't be it. I need to know who this mysterious figure talking to Vandal Savage is, why we're doing this. Where did the child come from? Like I was legitimately like, no, no, there's a post credit scene or something. Like, let me get to the end of this. What's happening here.
00:37:48
Speaker
But just a cliffhanger. A cliffhanger and then Saturn Girl and Beetle Boy eating chips on a bench? Yeah, that was the weakest. That was the weakest and crediting we've gotten so far, in my opinion. Maybe we'll have a reason to care about that at some point, but they were just sitting on a bench. Watching Garfield show, I mean,
00:38:18
Speaker
Oh, we found out in the last season when Zatanna and Clarion fought that he was trapped in the Tower of Rage for 16 days. I just remember, wasn't that an end credit scene where he kept trying to transport out and you just had the cat meowing at him?
00:38:42
Speaker
meow dang it meow dang it yeah that was one of the best ones from last season
00:38:49
Speaker
I really want just a moment of Dr. Fate shows up, flicks his wrist at Clarion. He's like, not a tower again? Just disappears into this. Get out. Clarion has just a house fly in Dr. Fate's house. Please just die or get out of here. He's got to open the window for him. I'm sure the Tower of Fate's just a convertible. Just opens up in half.
00:39:16
Speaker
It's a little chest. Ta-da! Bye, fly. Yeah, and I will say, also, you talk about the cat and him being a fly. Have we ever seen the cat be this week before? No, I think it's just lazy, though. But it felt like some emphasis that they were putting on, oh, we can weaken the cat. Like, that's a bit of a check offs gun for the season. Like, if we weaken the cat, we weaken Clarion.
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah, he pointed that out too. He was like, you always go for the cat. And then turned into four annoying Clarians and jumped over everyone. Who almost wiped the floor with the other ones if his sister didn't scare the crap out of him. Yeah, and that moment where he disappeared from the light meeting, like you knew something big was going on.
00:40:08
Speaker
Yeah, Vandal Savage didn't question him. I thought that was a really interesting part of their relationship, so to speak. Yeah. Was that he's like, all right, Clarion can go because I feel like he would have been upset if any other member of the light had left the meeting without permission.
Vandal Savage & Philosophical Balance
00:40:23
Speaker
Yeah, because they've had some type of arrangement for about 10,000 years now. And now we're seeing like the fruits of labor, I guess.
00:40:35
Speaker
Yeah, because he said like a thousand years from now, I'll come back and Clarion said, all right, we'll see what happens then. And obviously he didn't keep killing him. So they had to have come to some agreement. Yeah. And I'm curious to know what that was. Was it sinking Atlantis? Like and why the child was involved. Yeah, I don't know the child. I.
00:40:59
Speaker
I know so many things about DC. I love when they go into these laps of knowledge where I've never heard of the child before, period. So it's just, it's a mystery. And I'm very happy to see what it's going to be. Mystery. The opening dialogue.
00:41:23
Speaker
I'm trying to remember, like the gist of it was basically, we have the balance between good and evil. But then there were like, what if good is the balance and chaos is what tips it off. That was a stunning opening dialogue. Honestly, I think this
00:41:46
Speaker
arc is setting up for a lot of great dialogue and back and forth kind of things like that because they're toying with so much of the theoretical and the where do you draw the line and what is good magic what is bad magic they have to both exist or there will not be anything in the universe
00:42:08
Speaker
So I agree and I'm excited to see where it goes because I mean we've seen Dr. Fate before be the perfect example of there is darkness in good. He doesn't care who he takes over. He's like I need to do this for the greater good and we've seen Vandal have a
00:42:28
Speaker
tiny ounce of humanity here and there to be, you know, there is good in evil, you know, he was taking care of his village of metahumans that I would quantify that as good, despite him being a generally conquerous person, like he left the village to go be Attila the Hun or some alter ego that he was throughout history. So like he was being bad, but he was still wanted to protect his own. That's good in evil. Yeah, because at the time of caveman, like what actually was considered bad is to survive.
00:43:00
Speaker
Yeah, I really don't know. I love the character of Vandal Savage so much for that reason. He got to go from no ethics to ethics off the charts that exist in the modern world. There's so many things that could be talked about. And again, we know that he's played all of these alter egos of people that we consider to be bad. He had some motive. What was it?
00:43:30
Speaker
Yeah, that 30-day montage of Clarion just torturing him was insane. And it took 30 days for him to just be like, ooh, I'm interested in this person now. 30? I thought it was 300. 300 would make more sense. I may be misremembering, but for some reason, I thought it said 300. I was like, holy crap, he's been doing that for a year? I could have sworn he said 30, and my head went really just a month. Seems like Clarion could do.
00:43:59
Speaker
Far worse than that. He was probably bored. He was bored. He was bored, I'm like. I don't experience boredom. We're such busy people. Yeah. But. We're so busy, can't stop yawning during a podcast. Excuse me. Well, it's because I'm here. I'm boring you. Yeah, totally. What are those? Sign up now. Have a good day.
00:44:29
Speaker
I kid, but no, uh, it's, it's an exciting time to see where this is going to go.
Future Storylines & Speculation
00:44:35
Speaker
Like I said, I'm a fan of justice league dark and it kind of feels like that's what this is leading into. So, Oh, that's what we forgot to talk about was, uh, what was child statue called? Oh, did she name it? What was it? Uh, I don't know, but the face.
00:44:53
Speaker
I love the face so much. But the face was changing. What was that about? Yeah. I didn't. It reminded me. There's one thing I can't remember what it was, but the other one was the the coconut to Moana where they just like draw a little angry eyebrows.
00:45:09
Speaker
It reminded me of that, where it just magically switches up, but you don't see when it happens. It's just when the frame cuts to it, it's like, oh, this is what he's feeling now. That's a perfect analogy. The statue's name was Flaw.
00:45:25
Speaker
and flaw was ripped. I don't know how you go from small gemstone to that, but why is Clarion a cat? But why is Clarion a cat? Like 3000 karat gold or something like that. Yeah. Like probably this world's equivalent of like MCU adamantium or something like that. Like probably somewhat indestructible if I had to guess.
00:45:52
Speaker
I mean Atlantis needs to have some tough metal to handle the pressures of the ocean. That's true. I wonder if the, ooh, I wonder if we're going to get a little bit of a Aqualad with Atlantis being involved. I imagine he'd have his own arc. Well yeah, he's going to have his own arc, but Atlantis. I don't know. I didn't expect them to possibly cross them over. Yeah. Want to see what King Curry has been up to?
00:46:22
Speaker
Yeah. I want to see, I want to see what actually he's not even Aqualad. I misspoke. I want to see what our Aquaman is doing now. Hmm. Cause we haven't seen much of the actual like justice league this season. Not to Superman so far. Just Superman. Uh, Martian man hunter cyborg was there and we had our glimpses of steel. Yeah. What is, what is the league doing?
00:46:53
Speaker
Cause I feel like something important has to be going on somewhere in the background. Cause I also had that question in the last episode that I forgot to bring up is why didn't we call Batman? I know we prove we can handle it ourselves, but that felt like a time to call Batman. Uh, Barbara said that we're all busy with. Oh, the turf war. That was right. Yeah. It was dialogue for that. They, the show covers up where they don't need to cover up. Yeah.
00:47:21
Speaker
It's like, don't question us. We have stories to build. Not to call out the competition, but I've asked that kind of question so many times in the MCU. They're fighting a battle in Manhattan. Why is Spider-Man not there? Different questions like that that they just hand-wave the whole time. The show just throws in a line of dialogue to make it make sense that a penguin two-faced turf war would be a big deal.
00:47:47
Speaker
I was watching Hawkeye wondering where Spider-Man was. It's like, isn't this kind of in his neck of the woods? I was wondering that in the final battle of Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Oh, yeah. I mean, that happens. He's Spider-Man. His Peter tinkle should have been going off. Maybe. But well, now we're diverting into the MCU. I don't think I got anything else.
00:48:17
Speaker
No, I think that's it for me. I keep talking about how excited I am for what's next, so I feel like that's time to wrap up until we can see what's next. And now we know we get more Zatanna for a few more episodes. Ah, the frickin' Luya. More Zatanna. I will say, the minute she came on the screen, it was just like, yes, everything I wanted again.
00:48:39
Speaker
And some dude just like bumped into her and I was like, you lucky. You lucky. Why did we have the same thoughts here? Across the street sooner. Uh, yep. You need to bring Jay Scottie back so he can even you out because I will only encourage this kind of behavior. Next time, next time we'll see where his ventures lead him.
00:49:06
Speaker
Yes, I will love hearing the tales from the outer worlds when he comes back. All right. Put him on the spot for me. See what he has to say. He'll be editing this if you don't show up and I'm just talking to myself for an hour, you'll know why. Well, thank you, Jay Scottie. We don't say it enough. Thank you for editing. Anything else for him to edit? No, I think that's it.
00:49:36
Speaker
Alright folks, we will be back next week with more Zatanna. So tune in next time and as always stay wellmed.
00:49:45
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the Animation Deliberation Podcast, a proud member of the Strandepanda Network. If you would like to contact us, you can email animationdeliberationpodcast at gmail.com or follow us on Twitter at animationdelib1. For this and other great shows, you can visit Strandepanda.com or join the great community that is the Strandepanda Chat Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash svchat. Tune in next time and remember,
00:50:10
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:51:19
Speaker
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Speaker
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