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Invincible S2 E2
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Zuhair and J Scotty return right alongside Invincible for the second season's second outing!
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Transcript
Introduction and Invincible Season 1 Recap
00:00:01
Speaker
On another exciting episode of the Animation Deliberation podcast, we continue our coverage of Invincible Season 2 as we talk about Episode 2. In about six hours, I lose my virginity to a fish. Right after these ads, we have no control over.
00:00:15
Speaker
Sing along if you know the words. One, two, three, it's time for animation deliberation. A conversation and a celebration of our favorite action animated series. Yeah. Yeah, welcome back to another episode of Animation Deliberation, the podcast where we take action animation and cartoon seriously, but not too seriously. We're your hosts, I'm Zara Lee. And my name's Jay Scottie St. Clair.
00:00:41
Speaker
And for some reason, I have to hit the riff on an air guitar, even nobody can see me doing it, and there's no music to this theme song. But I just want you guys to know what really happens when we're jamming out in the background of this. To quote James Cameron's avatar, I see you. Yay. We're just not going to intertwine ponytails or anything. No, we won't be doing that. My hair's not that long yet. Let's get in there. Nor is mine. Nor is mine.
00:01:10
Speaker
Oh, good times. Good times. All right, but we're two episodes into this. Yeah, we were talking about how the how the first episode like we were above well, not necessarily blown away like we were with the first episode of the first season, but we were enjoying the content. Are we on that wavelength? Are we higher? Are we lower? How are you feeling with the second episode? I think the episode is kind of on par for me, but I have
00:01:38
Speaker
I'm trying to figure out the right way to say this because coming off of last week, it's not to say that there was any negativity.
World-Building and Character Development in Invincible
00:01:44
Speaker
Like you said, I was whelmed, trending positive. And I think this week very much felt like a kind of setting up the blocks for what we're going to see further down the season, but it still continued to trend in the positive direction for me. I thought this was, you know, without getting too spoilery in terms of what we've seen of the invincible world and universe, I thought,
00:02:07
Speaker
This was one of the best world building in terms of showing us all of the powers and sources of powers on display here, be they magical, be they mythical, be they extraterrestrial, just really giving us an idea of what the world of invisible looks like.
00:02:25
Speaker
Um, so in that regard, I, I really appreciated the episode and I, like I said, I thought it was trending positively and I felt, um, good trajectory in terms of the character development and motivations as well as some of the seeds that were planted, um, for the, for the rest of the season. That being said, I, I can see how like, you know, we had to jump around to so many different characters. It never really felt like we had to spend all that much time with one
00:02:50
Speaker
particular character and the episode might have suffered for that, but that's really a nitpick. So that's kind of where I'm coming from.
00:02:56
Speaker
All right, I'm glad you mentioned both of those things. It's one I didn't think about and one I shared the same thoughts as where at one point I was like, man, all the sub stories going on right now. Like, sure. It made me a little dizzy because like I said off air, like I was just really tired while I was watching this. So it's like trying to keep my eyes open and pay attention to who I'm at and what they're talking about and trying to put the pieces together. I definitely needed that recap.
00:03:25
Speaker
Sure. I didn't think about it in the way that so last season when we were going through these episodes, they were kind of episodic, but they did enough with Omni Man's story to give us something to follow, if that makes sense. It does. And. You wonder, like, why we had to deal with
00:03:51
Speaker
Not in a bad way, but just just out of observation. Like, why did we have to do a whole Mars thing? Why did we have to do something with this species? Why did we have to do something with this entity? So when you bring that up, I guess it is nice that they like planted all those seeds in season one and now they get to like, like,
00:04:09
Speaker
re-engage with those things this season instead of having to keep doing episode things. I guess it didn't click to me like how much they covered in season one that we get to play with more now, which I appreciate them doing that as opposed to just adding more things to try and keep up with.
00:04:26
Speaker
It's like Star Wars, right? Like you have some really cool, well-made planets, but like, why do we need 20 more that look and sound exactly the same? It's like, why can't we just go back and forth with Tatooine? Like, why do we need Jakku too, right? So I like that they're, you know, giving us things to be able to refer and like consistently bring back.
00:04:45
Speaker
I hear you. I hear you. And I'm resisting the urge to go into a Star Wars discussion and debate here. But in terms of Jakku, that one I'll give a pass to just because we've gone to Tatooine so many times. It stands to reason there would be at least one other.
00:05:00
Speaker
desert planet out there. But yeah, I'm with you. I guess, again, while this is our non-spoiler section, I will say I agree with you. It was nice to revisit some of the threads from season one. We're only two episodes into the season, and so judgment is still being withheld. But two
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00:05:22
Speaker
episodes in, there are a couple of personal favorites from me
00:05:26
Speaker
from season one that I'm like, you know, I hope that we at least get to follow up with them if not for just like an episode or an episode or two, but I'll talk about who they are specifically when we get to the spoiler section. All right. And to lead up to that,
00:05:43
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00:06:35
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Invincible Season 2, Episode 2 Synopsis
00:08:12
Speaker
That's right.
00:08:14
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:09:03
Speaker
Got to build the anticipation. I really want to hear your thoughts on Loki after we're done with this. Oh yeah, for sure. You see the marbles yet? I've seen it twice.
00:09:14
Speaker
Go to the theaters, people. That's all I'll say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe once we get to the end of our invincible thoughts, if you stick around to the very end listeners, maybe we'll do just the tiniest of the Marvel's reactions. Because without spoiling anything, it's justified. It's justified. And if you haven't seen it and you're planning on seeing it, there is one mid-credit scene. So you don't have to stay to the very end.
00:09:41
Speaker
Good call. Good call. That's literally right. Facebook's fans like I'll watch a Marvel movie and I'll just post one end credit scene or one mid credit scene. It's like that's all I'll say. So you guys know I've seen it if anybody wants to hit me up. But here's intel for the people who haven't because I always go for those Thursday nights.
00:09:56
Speaker
That's a good strategy. You're helping people out, spreading the word and also not spoiling anything. I'm hoping someone messages me because I need to talk about it. Had I seen that, I would have. But yeah, speaking of talking about it, speaking of anticipation, speaking of spoilers, let's get into it. We're talking about Invincible Season 2, Episode 2. In about six hours, I lose my virginity to a fish. Didn't know I was ever going to utter those words in my lifetime, but here we are.
00:10:24
Speaker
I did not look at the title name until I opened up Notional. I was like, that could not have been the name. And yet it was to read it. You know, that's fair. That's fair because believe it or not, that title is spoilery. A little bit. Yeah. With that said, let's go ahead and knock out the synopsis here and then we'll get all into our thoughts and reactions.
00:10:51
Speaker
While graduating, Mark defeats Doc Seismic and his magma knights. Over the summer, tension grows between he and Debbie after she realizes he is only continuing his work as invincible and working for Cecil to avoid Nolan's legacy. She confronts Cecil during which she learns Donald Ferguson is alive and later has a breakdown over continuous reminders of Nolan.
00:11:12
Speaker
After rebuilding an apartment, Eve argues with her father, believing he cannot accept that she can help others with her powers. However, the apartment collapses due to being built on unstable ground, though casualties were sustained. The Stowaway Martian, who had taken the place of astronaut Russ Livingston, becomes inspired by original Guardian member Martian Man to become the superhero Shapesmith and join the current Guardians.
00:11:41
Speaker
After encountering and defeating Darkwing too, Cecil assigns Mark to appease the Atlanteans for original guardian member Akaris' death. Amidst a trial by combat, Mark battles Akaiju but is injured by its roar. Nonetheless, he saves the Atlanteans from it against Cecil's orders. Angstrom travels to an alternate earth where Mark was camped by the GDA to gain information on how to defeat his own.
00:12:07
Speaker
If you guys haven't seen the Adam Eve special that they made earlier this year, because a lot of people didn't know that it came out. Like you got to definitely make the time to watch that because it was it was really good. It was great. It was kind of a heartbreaking story as well. And a lot of the weight from that really does affect how she's kind of going about her days and season two.
00:12:34
Speaker
Yeah, Eve didn't get the most screen time in this episode, but kind of coming off of what I said last week with the first episode and the Adam Eve special to your point. Yeah, definitely go out and watch that. This one had some connectivity with the lizard league, but I want to focus on Adam Eve.
00:12:54
Speaker
Like I said last week, even though the show is called Invincible, I think she continues to be my favorite character and just like the journey that she's on and the struggle that she's facing and the fact that she has this crazy power set and she's making this decision, like I'm not gonna punch people in the face, I'm gonna help people. And even having those altruistic motivations, like she still is just, you know,
00:13:20
Speaker
hampered on all sides, be it by her parents or be it by the red tape, which, you know, I have to say that scene was super effective because when she was at Chicago, like helping with the building.
00:13:31
Speaker
constructed that corner of the building. And then the contractor said, how do I know that's up to code? I was on the contractor side initially. I was like, oh, that's actually a great point. How do you know that's up to code? And then the bystander stepped in and said, hey, if the bureaucrats had their way, we'd be living in shelters for days on end here. But to have that all come full circle and see there was a reason the red tape was there and there was a reason you don't overstep that red tape was incredibly heartbreaking.
00:14:01
Speaker
And, you know, just really helped to ground the show, which can be incredibly fantastical. All right, so that I that was what I didn't understand what he was referring to, because I guess I didn't know that they were because when he said Chicago, I thought they were talking about the Omni man incident. Sure. Yeah, they were like where she was there. So I didn't realize that, like,
00:14:23
Speaker
This was a result of what we literally just saw. So the building that she fixed like ended up collapsing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The very woman that's like stepped out from the crowd to defend her was the woman that was pictured on the screen as having passed away as the result of the collapse. It was her and her daughter. Yeah.
00:14:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's tough, it's tough. And I don't know if there's like a natural segue for this, but you mentioned like that part of the episode confusing you a little bit. One part of the episode that like,
Character Analysis: Adam Eve and Russ
00:14:56
Speaker
I don't know if confused is the right word for me, but I'm like after reading the synopsis, I like wonder if my interpretation is kind of off or what, but we have this character of Russ, voiced by Ben Schwartz, and I already love him.
00:15:09
Speaker
100% love him, like Ben Schwartz coming off of the guest role that he had on Bad Batch season two. He's just really making a name for himself in the world of voice acting. And I love this character and the comic relief he provided. But the synopsis says that he is just a Martian that is inspired by the Martian man before him and wants to be a superhero. But my takeaway with those flashbacks, like seeing the Martians make their last stand against the Sequids and everything like that,
00:15:38
Speaker
My interpretation was that he is actually a sequid that has like co-opted the physical attributes of a Martian. So he is a sequid who believes he's a Martian who wants to be a human, who wants to be a superhero. And maybe it's way too early in the season for me to be making those interpretations, but that was my takeaway. That's what I got too, because I mean, first I was like kind of sleepy. So when it was when it was him watching the TV, I thought it was
00:16:08
Speaker
the the hero it was martian man and he was just watching how people thought of him but then like later when it was the whole like initiation thing and they kept cutting back to i keep wanting to call him the starfish because sure if everything's based off something like that's definitely star right sure yeah yeah um yeah the way that they kept cutting back and forth i i matched exactly what you said about like it's
00:16:32
Speaker
It's a star of fish over a Martian that's shape-shifting into a person to be like in the league. Yeah, okay. All right. So that makes me feel better that I wasn't just like wildly off base in my interpretation. Okay. I was like, maybe I just like read too much into that, but that, okay. That's much better than me just thinking all Martians look the same. Okay. Fair enough.
00:16:58
Speaker
I, you know, I, just to transition to another part of the episode, I have to say, I think, um, as much as like Adam Eve is still my favorite character at this point, and I really liked her scenes, I think my favorite part of the episode, like far and away was Invincible's interaction with Darkwing's apprentice or his protege or his sidekick. Don't call him a sidekick. He doesn't like that. Yeah.
00:17:21
Speaker
Yeah, as a Young Justice fans, that was definitely something that was really cool because that was that was basically like a Superboy Nightwing conversation, right? Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:17:32
Speaker
That's definitely the vibe that I got when I was watching it. Just the parallels and the intensity and the perspectives and stuff. It was cool to see. And Darwin was one of those characters, like, obviously he's supposed to be like a version of Batman in this. Oh, yeah. But I like the way that he was portrayed and just super bomb that we didn't get to see more of him after the first episode. So I like that there is a protege that we get to see kind of enhance what we didn't get from the original. Yeah. Yeah. And I like the fact that
00:18:03
Speaker
He's got this power set. He mentions the exoskeleton that his predecessor made that helps him stand toe to toe with these super powered individuals. But then he's also got this ability to tap into what is called the shadow verse, which that reminded me a lot of the Marvel character of Cloak, where he's able to bring himself into this ultimate dark dimension. I was like, that is really cool to take
00:18:31
Speaker
so well-known archetype DC character like Batman but then take this like it's not super obscure I think he's become more and more well known in the in the recent years here but to take this like lesser known Marvel character and to combine the two to like I
00:18:46
Speaker
That's just what I love about Invincible. It knows exactly what it is, and it just relishes living in this world.
Character Traits and Emotional Depth in Invincible
00:18:52
Speaker
It's homage, and it's also deconstruction of these superhero worlds that we love so much, which I can't help, but it's interesting that both the boys and Invincible are both on Amazon, because it really feels like Amazon has just carved out this niche for being like, you've got your superhero content, but this is where we're subverting the superhero content.
00:19:12
Speaker
It's like, we're going to take everything you like from Marvel and DC, obviously make it into our own thing and then make it as gory as possible. Right. That's the prime formula. Yeah. Which, you know, in terms of like having these comparisons to characters that we know really well,
00:19:35
Speaker
I had this thought watching the episode. I know it's not the first time I've had the thought, but it really just kind of like stuck out to me. This episode is like Mark, like invincible, Omni man, like clearly a Superman allegory. But in terms of Mark being like so relatable and being a teenager and like navigating the like minutia of everyday life, I was like, he really is like the best way I could describe him to somebody that has no idea what invincible is. It's like he's Superman and Spider-Man.
00:20:02
Speaker
Best parts of Superman, best parts of Spider-Man mashed into one. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. What do you think about this whole
00:20:20
Speaker
subplot with like, you know, Cecil and his assistant, Donald and Debbie, like recognizing that he died previously. Like they pointed it out. They made like a point in the, like previously on to re-show Nolan, like grabbing his spine and like crushing his spine. Wait, that who died previously?
00:20:39
Speaker
Donald Ferguson, I'm not surprised that you don't recognize him by name, but he's that government agent. He's like Cecil's lackey. And he said something to Cecil about like, oh, when Debbie noticed me, she seemed like, you know, distraught. And Cecil was like, she's a distraught woman. That's who she is. Yeah. Any thoughts about like what his dealio is or? Nothing yet. Okay. Did you watch agents of shield?
00:21:06
Speaker
I was just, I literally just opened my mouth to make that. That was the name Patton Oswalt. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I can't remember the character's name, but yeah. I can't remember his name either, but I was just like, wait a minute. He just, how does he, where did he, Oh, okay. That's an interesting, yeah. That's, that's the approach I'm going with. Okay. Yeah. That's exactly where my mind went as well.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah, but mention his mom and I think that was my Favorite thing about this episode was the parallels between how she's going through everyday life I think her story at all like consistently has been my favorite now Interesting that I'm like relating with the human when there's all this like super power stuff going on but I I just I think more
00:21:52
Speaker
content now is covering grief and anxiety and PTSD. And the way that it's being portrayed has become more and more powerful within recent years, because there's always a trope of like, all right, we dealt with what we need to deal with, we're sad, but now we have to move on and prevail and blah, blah, blah. So I like that there's more content that's showing the aftermath of stuff.
00:22:16
Speaker
Sure. The way that that is that Mark's mom has to deal with it. Like she thought that she was ready to go back to work and it's just selling houses. Right. And that's a real estate photographer coming from a deal with these people. Sure. So for her to have to bite her tongue like that and not have to snap at this person and just like I was mad for her the way that that client was like dealing with his wife. Oh, that an animated show can make me feel this way is like
00:22:46
Speaker
like all the hats off to all the writers get all the freaking money you deserve because you did a fantastic job with conveying this.
00:22:54
Speaker
Yes, yes. And to your point, you mentioned Debbie's story being the one that you find the most resonating, even in light of all these super heroics. And I think there's a reason for that. I think it is really compelling. And I had the thought multiple times in this episode, that poor woman, that poor woman. And the whole thing with the cupboard not shutting all the way, that felt like,
00:23:22
Speaker
I think in lesser hands and...
00:23:28
Speaker
played with less subtlety. It would have been really on the nose, but I really liked the way they play. And I remember having this thought, like, you know, Mark got frustrated and like slammed it early on in the episode. But when she has that absolute breakdown and just rips it off its hinges, I had that thought. It was like, it's not the person with all the power that ripped the store off the hinges. It's, it's this woman, this woman that is hurting so much. And yeah, I really felt for her in that regard and like,
00:23:55
Speaker
you know, she lost her husband already. And she's like trying to cling on to her son. And, you know, she's really, really trying her best and wants to, you know, give him a break as much as herself. And she basically she constantly has to like backpedal to like, you know,
00:24:13
Speaker
not lose him too. That moment when she says, nobody thinks you're going to turn out to be your father, and he says then why would you say it? And her reaction, I'm so sorry. I was like, oh, this poor, poor woman. She shouldn't have to be apologizing right now. It comes down to like,
00:24:29
Speaker
the whole like put on your own mask before helping anybody else in a plane. Like she hasn't been able to grieve and cope yet, but she's trying to help somebody do that when she doesn't have the ability to do it herself and her son at that.
00:24:49
Speaker
So it's the pain of like seeing her try to do that when she can't take care of herself in the moment. She hasn't gone through the phases herself. And like she's we talked about how she lost. She essentially lost her husband twice. Right. Like she lost Nola and then she lost this person that she realized she was angry and sad. That's how Red Rush's wife put it. So now she's like trying to hold on to her son, but she essentially just doesn't have the tools to do that. The tools to do that right now because she hasn't gone through the process herself. So
00:25:19
Speaker
For him to not know how to do it because he feels like saving the world and working for the same organization and being over-conscious is going to help him when it's not. She's trying to be a mother, but it's not helping. She's trying to go back to her work, but it's not helping. So it's like to find that avenue to actually proceed with the grieving process. Again, it's just so, so well written. I'm so fascinated with this character more than anybody else right now.
00:25:46
Speaker
No, I think, yeah, it's for good reason. It's for good reason. And I'm glad a lot of times in shows like these, the parents can kind of be relegated to these like, I mean, you look at Adam even, I still really love Adam even, but her parents are like, you know, like paper thin.
Critique of Animation Quality
00:26:01
Speaker
Her mom has a little bit more going on for her. And I guess paper thin is a little harsh because like her dad does, you know,
00:26:08
Speaker
There's a little bit there in terms of like toxic masculinity and him like wanting to be the provider. And you know, the fact that he is somewhat right in the fact that like her using her powers unchecked had consequences. But apart from that, you know, yeah, it sucks that it's coming from such like an oafish and belligerent kind of person, but he's, you know, he's not entirely wrong. Yeah.
00:26:32
Speaker
So, you know, I am pretty positive on this episode and pretty positive on this show overall still. But I remember last season we talked about some of the, I guess for lack of a better way of describing this, some of the corners they cut with their animation. Like I remember referencing some like amorphous like
00:26:53
Speaker
CG blob renders in the background and stuff like that. I didn't pick up on that in this episode. One thing I felt myself noticing, the show is visually interesting and I think in its depiction of violence and emotion, it does a really good job. But there are these times of the facial animations I noticed in this episode. I was like, it feels like they're just letting a face sit static for too long until it has a reaction. It feels like,
00:27:16
Speaker
choppy to me. And I was like, OK, I can feel where they're like, you know, saving a little bit of their budget here. But the other kind of critique I have here, and I don't know if it was as prominent last season or maybe I just didn't notice it as much. But in their depiction of like facial features, I felt like the lines for bags under people's eyes were really, really pronounced in this episode. And maybe that's, you know, showing the lack of sleep and the trauma that's occurred in the fallout of Omni Man.
00:27:46
Speaker
Yeah, but I'm not sure like with Debbie especially I was like you're making this woman seem like way more old and beat up than she needs to with the way you're like doing these harsh lines underneath her eyes. Hers was definitely very prominent. Yeah, I noticed it with Invincible himself a couple times too. Yeah. Everything you just said right now about just the facial structures and things lining up in this and that is complaints that I've had with Mappa and Jujutsu Kaisen as well.
00:28:16
Speaker
Hmm. And I hate to bring up this topic again, but it's like with everything that just ended with the writers strike. Like now you see the animators starting to speak up a little bit more about like, you know, just what their work environments are like and what they're dealing with and overworked and this and that. So it's one of those things where it's like Amazon's makes enough money and has had enough demand for the show that took two years to make a season two. Like there's.
00:28:45
Speaker
there's really no excuse right when it comes to whether it be treating the people right or going through the process right or delivering the final product right like I get that it's animation and everything that comes literally from scratch but I hate that we're a show that defends animation because it has adult storytelling and it shouldn't be perceived as something for kids but then
00:29:14
Speaker
The studios are neglecting the people who are making these stories. So little things like this happen. And if it's something we notice and how do we know it's not like other people aren't noticing it, that's true enough to just be like, yeah, I don't want to watch this. It seems lazy. So this is a conundrum of like, we're trying so hard to defend this medium. But like, what are the studios doing to help us out with that right now? Yeah, yeah, it is. I just I just hate.
00:29:43
Speaker
I hate being put in this predicament because we talk about this stuff because we love it and it makes us happy. For instance, we notice stuff like this. Yeah, and that's the thing. I noticed it, but it didn't really take me out of it. My attention never waned. I was engaged with the story. So in that sense, again, I describe it as a nitpick. It's just for the sake of having a conversation about the episode as a whole. If I'm being 100% honest,
00:30:12
Speaker
I think the show would benefit from a little bit of fine tuning with the animation. Everything else is just firing on such cylinders that it does stand out a
Exploring Invincible's Universe and Plot Complexities
00:30:23
Speaker
little bit. The voice acting and the voice talent is off the charts. The character designs are great. It's just, yeah, when things feel a little stilted sometimes when you're trying to use as little frames as possible, just keep characters as static as long as possible, you start to feel it.
00:30:41
Speaker
But, um, I love her explode situation right now. Yeah. I was like, yo, and this fucking statue that he walks out with, he's like, this is none of your business. I'm like, Oh, okay. Get some bud. Yeah.
00:31:07
Speaker
Yeah no rex split is definitely he feels like the punching bag for the season between last episode. Yeah yeah for sure he's he's really had nothing happened to me except for being told off for like put upon and that interaction with duplicate was great.
00:31:26
Speaker
because I understood where everybody was coming from. And like, I felt for everybody, except for maybe a mortal. A mortal was the only one that kind of came across as smug, but in terms of like duplicate, it was like, you start, you know, not to slut shame or anything like that, but it's like, okay, she went from Rex blow to a mortal. She's like, you know, she's willing to like navigate and move around to whoever's going to benefit her the most, but to her point, hey,
00:31:53
Speaker
You went from Adam Eve straight to me. Like, why should you be surprised that I went straight from you to somebody else? Like, get what you get. Yeah, he can be such a shame too. Yeah, that's right. That's right.
00:32:12
Speaker
the occurrences in Atlantis as well. I love the way that or Cecil is just kind of like, oh, yeah, like it's just formalities and yada, yada. I got to go deal with another thing. And he was like, oh, you need to fix your Intel. This is the one I was going for. And then, yeah, it was a little slime. We didn't put him in a choke. I was like, well, I guess I won.
00:32:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that coming from a mile away, but I will say instead of it being like the little like dangler in front of an angler fish, I thought it was going to be like the tongue of some creature and he was going to be, you know, eaten and have to fight his way out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have, yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I have any like super, um,
00:32:54
Speaker
insightful, like, you know, analysis of those scenes, but they were fun from an animation perspective. I liked how they added like the, like, you know, kind of warping warbling effect to the animation to sell that underwater feel. But apart from that, I just got to have to give some a shout out to Tatiana Maslany. She Hulk herself was the voice of Aquarius's widow, the queen of Atlantis. And yeah, she was pretty much unrecognizable in that performance.
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, the action was cool, but the this was in a little synopsis to the fact that the roar was so triggered to him and it's something. Oh, searching and breaking down. Yeah. When is this going to come back? That is super interesting. Yeah, because again, I haven't read the comics.
00:33:44
Speaker
but I have to imagine Cecil is going to test whatever technology they base based on this creature's like, you know, sonar on Mark to make sure it'll work on Omni. Yeah. So that is just, you know, fraught with a dramatic tension and betrayal there. And the other ties it in with Angstrom's research as well. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed.
00:34:10
Speaker
A small part of the episode, but one I definitely want to highlight in terms of like talking about the world building. Like you just mentioned Atlantis. It was nice to see more of that culture and how this depiction of Atlantis varies from other, you know, various depictions we've seen. But Midnight City.
00:34:25
Speaker
this just like random cursed city that just exists in a dome where it's constantly night, where we find Darkwing. That was just super cool to me. I was like, yes, I wanna see more of stuff like this. Like what is going on in this wacky world? Or like I said, we have extraterrestrials, we have magic users, we have technology-based villains. Like I wanna know what's going on with Midnight City. Like spend an episode in Midnight City. I dug that.
00:34:52
Speaker
Yeah, all the skulls piled up on the light post. What kind of like you would imagine there would be like nightclubs and stuff that would essentially just go and try to set up business over there. I would hope so. I'm thinking of all the people that move out, but all the people that stay like, yeah, like it's like much one man's curse is another man's treasure. It's like Amsterdam.
00:35:16
Speaker
24. Yeah. Ibiza. That's a party all the time. Yeah. But, uh, that does make me think of, uh, something I mentioned earlier on in the episode is like, you know, there are a couple of characters from season one that I really liked that we haven't had any kind of like update on. And again, it's only, it's only episode two, so there's still plenty of time. But the first one that comes to mind is Damien dark blood, the, you know,
00:35:42
Speaker
kind of Hellboy inspired detective from season one voiced by Clancy Brown. As soon as I saw Midnight City and the fact that it was cursed, I was like, are we going to see Damien Darkblood? And we didn't and that's okay, but hopefully down the line. Yeah. Is this expected to be what, eight episodes? Yes. Okay. So I think we're supposed to get the first four. So we're actually like kind of like halfway through this first foray. And then the second half of season two should be coming in 2024.
00:36:14
Speaker
Yes. Uh, but yeah, I think that's, um, all that's really coming to mind for me for this
Listener Engagement and Marvel Movie Discussion
00:36:22
Speaker
episode. We didn't get any feedback this week. So, uh, feedback was one of the best parts of covering season one. So definitely encourage you all out there if you're watching and enjoying invincible season two, like we are, let us know what your thoughts are. You can send us a voicemail or a written email at animation deliberation podcast at gmail.com.
00:36:42
Speaker
Anything else you want to say on this one's your hair? No, I think that's it for my thoughts for this week. You know, just enjoying the show, great storytelling. Um, I'm ready for the next one. Cool. All right. Anything we should let the people know about before we get out of here? Uh, fantasy heroes is doing our Patreon episode tomorrow. Uh, so if you haven't signed up for Patreon, give us a checkout over there.
00:37:10
Speaker
Um, we're doing Ms. Marvel and, um, Loki and I am Groot, which dropped another season, which I need to watch tomorrow before recording. Um, so we're talking about those things and just, you know, the game for next year and stuff like that. Uh, the usual three, two, three with Reed Murphy, our weekly.
00:37:36
Speaker
football picks and stories and highlights and all that fun stuff. And always a good time. Right on. Yeah. Check all that stuff out. As for me, you can always find me here at Animation Deliberation as well as Multiverse News. That is the show where we cover the latest and greatest in the world of blockbuster franchises and fandoms. So please check us out over there.
00:38:05
Speaker
Yeah, if you've stuck around up until this point, I will say, you know, thanks for tuning in. That's T-O-O-N-I-N. And as always, stay well.
00:38:21
Speaker
Okay.
Review of The Marvels Movie - Development and Themes
00:38:50
Speaker
If you stuck around this long, we talked about at the top of the episode. Let's give some the Marvel's reactions. So much so good, man. I was trying to temper my hopes for this one because of how much I love Ms. Marvel. And this hit all the check marks that I wanted for this movie.
00:39:14
Speaker
I wanted a Carol Danvers story that just happened to have the other two and that they gave me that I wanted good action. They gave me that humor. They gave me that and it was like appropriately placed humor, which some of the other titles just haven't been able to do a lot lately.
00:39:32
Speaker
The villain was fine. Like I liked the direction and everything of it. I liked the results of everything. Overall, it was just it was one of those. It was a perfect MCU movie, but it wasn't a mind blowing one. I enjoyed the hell out of it. I will watch it again. But it was no Infinity War, right? Oh, sure. So it was just it was so good.
00:39:55
Speaker
that the two movies that we got in theaters this year were just so mind-blowingly good and just kind of gave us a good taste of like everything that we missed about the M50 saga.
00:40:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'm right there with you. I really thoroughly enjoyed the Marvels. I've seen it twice. And we can justify talking about it because there was actually an animated sequence very early on in the movie. I will say I wanted them to revisit that. I really loved the movie, but that's one thing. I was like, oh, if we could have just got one more scene showing Kamala's imagination and the animation.
00:40:29
Speaker
because I love the fact that they brought that through line from Miss Marvel. And if I remember correctly from that series, I only watched it one time through, but I think, again, they used that in the first episode and never really revisited throughout the rest of the season. The plan.
00:40:44
Speaker
Okay, they did. Okay, they did once. Okay, okay. But no, I love that. And actually really reminded me of the show Central Park. I remember about a year ago, we did an interview with I hate that I can't remember the person's name that worked on Central Park, but we knew we had this interview with her. So we all went about our separate ways to watch Central Park.
00:41:07
Speaker
And one of my favorite things about that show Central Park was the, was the character, the young girl, she had her, you know, her superhero character fist to puffs. And she had to have these like sequence sequences where she was in a room drawing. And you got to see these act as action sequences play out in her mind. And I was like, totally transport. I was like, Oh, like they're doing this.
00:41:26
Speaker
almost exactly like out of that show and I love it. I echo your sentiments entirely in terms of like, MCU entries, this is probably, you know, qualitatively like lands somewhere solidly in the middle of the pack for me. It didn't blow my mind. It didn't, you know, it's not groundbreaking. It's not, you know,
00:41:45
Speaker
pushing the envelope forward in terms of filmmaking, but in terms of an entertaining story that continues the story of Captain Marvel, that continues the story of Monica Rambeau from WandaVision, that continues the story of Kamala Khan. It was great. The villain was a little one note, a little undercooked, but she served her purpose. She did what she was supposed to do, and I understood her motivations well enough. I got to see the Supreme Intelligence on the big screen.
00:42:11
Speaker
forthright in all its glory, even if it was only for a scene or for a second, you get more goose and more of the the flurkins. It was, you know, it was hilarious. And the musical, the musical number. I love the musical number. It was so, so good. I didn't see that coming from a mile away. And I remember Nia Da Costa, like in the couple of months before this movie came out, she said, like, this movie is going to distinguish itself because it's wacky. And I was like, oh, that doesn't sound that different. But
00:42:39
Speaker
To her point, the Marvels felt different and was wacky in its own way. Yes. It's had its wacky moments, which was good. It was just a perfect bat. The thing about this movie that I would not stop saying is that it was just perfectly balanced on everything, as all things should.
00:42:56
Speaker
And it's no secret that I'm a huge fan of Earth's Mightiest Heroes. It's where my Marvel knowledge comes from. It's like anytime there's a character that pops up, I always try to compare it to that show. So that was my disappointment with the Captain Marvel movie was that it just didn't fit the high bar that I had for her because of the way that the show depicted it.
00:43:16
Speaker
But just like Thor to Infinity War, they did Carol Danvers write in this one because Brie Larson is an incredible actress. I've been watching A Lesson in Chemistry and she just blows my mind every episode with how amazing she is. So the fact that they gave her
00:43:34
Speaker
more personality and just how much more she was able to play around with it and when she was funny when she needed to be, she was serious when she knew me, she was greedy when she needed to be, the expressions and just how free flowing everything was. It was just absolutely incredible.
00:43:51
Speaker
Like it's the same with her to Thor like there's like when you have him so perfectly Infinity War it makes you wonder like why wasn't he like that in the first one? Why was he so comedic and love and thunder and I get people like it some people don't I definitely did not so It's just like anything any other time that you have Carol Danvers refer to this refer to this director Because she killed it and there should be no other version of her than what we have here because it was perfect Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I you know, I like
00:44:21
Speaker
Captain Marvel, I do think the Marvels was a better movie for me than Captain Marvel. And I agree with everything you said about the characterizations of Carol Danvers. But the whole time you were kind of talking, I kept thinking about these moments in the movie. Again, it kind of goes without saying, but
00:44:40
Speaker
Iman Valani as Kamala Khan just captured my heart and my imagination. She is so contagious with her enthusiasm. But I think about when they're in the spaceship flying in space and she gets to see the stars. And it kind of reminds me of that scene with Captain America in Endgame when he sees the stars flash in his eyes. But her reaction instead is, oh. She's all excited. She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then this happens. She's like, oh. And I love the way she just
00:45:11
Speaker
Oh, she's so good. Oh, it's great. And I know we saw it in the trailer, but just like every time that she would, like when she was first like thrust into that action secret, she was like, Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. And then like, whenever she's just like making faces with Carol, it's just everything. How was this her first time acting?
00:45:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think about the scene where they use the scroll device to share memories. And Monica has that really, really tough moment where she saw that Carol actually did go back and say goodbye to her mom. And Kamala's reaction is to just like, I didn't know your mom, but she seemed really cool and just goes in and hugs her.
00:45:55
Speaker
and like that's her nature and Carol's just off to the side like awkwardly like I feel it too but I don't know what to do and Kamala's just like get in here you hug and it's like at first Monica rebuffs it a little bit but then she's like this is nice thank you and I was like yeah if I had to like it would have been so much higher for so much longer if it wasn't for her being there in that moment like she's oh for sure together oh yeah yeah without a doubt you know a flirting or two don't doesn't hurt either yeah
00:46:21
Speaker
And I like how because her and her mom have had so many different names as heroes, like the whole thing was like, we got to workshop a name because us as fans are like, oh yeah, we know that there is a name. Is it Photon? Is it this? Is it that? And not only did we not get an answer, but we had that mid credit scene where her mom is a hero and we do get beast and this happens and that happens. Just like, oh my God, this is the Marvel I've missed.
00:46:47
Speaker
Yeah. When you said her mom, my, I realized you're talking about Maria Rambo now, but at first I thought you were talking about Kamala's mom and I was like, Oh yeah, her mom, because her mom, I, you know, her mom is difficult and, you know, definitely presented a, a little bit of an antagonist in the, in the TV series, but she had some great lines in this one. Like when, when,
00:47:13
Speaker
It's just Carol and Monica there, and Carol finds out that Monica got powers, and she's like, oh yeah, she's like, when have you had power? She's like, oh, you know, I walked through a radiation field caused by a witch's hex, and now I can see all spectrums of light. And she's like, I'm so happy for you. Where's my daughter? Oh, so good. Like, I know all the superhero stuff is regular for you guys, but where the fuck is my high school kid?
00:47:43
Speaker
Oh, and you mentioned Professor Marvel to tie it back into this episode, Invincible, when Invincible faces off with Doc Seismic from season one. He's like, oh, what was your name again? Was it Doc or Professor? And he's like, Doc, I never talked.
00:47:59
Speaker
This is so dumb. Yeah, funny way. Yeah, yeah. Well, then like just some religious stuff that they had in it too, like Kamala saying Bismillah before a fight and then I'm around the escape pod because like, allow my son in that moment in that moment. Are you praying? Don't stop. Amen. We need all the help we can get. He just keeps going on with the prayer. Amen. Allow my son in that moment. Amen. Allow my son in that moment. Amen.
00:48:32
Speaker
I'm really high on this movie again, like, I don't think it, you know, broke any new grounds creatively, I will say from a filmmaking perspective.
00:48:47
Speaker
I think the backlash that it's getting is unfortunately a combination side effect of the general sentiment around the MCU right now, that variety article that came out recently doesn't help. But unfortunately also the first Captain Marvel faced a lot of adversity in terms of just
00:49:13
Speaker
being against the movie for the wrong reasons, and I know this movie is facing that as well, but if I did have to have, just for the sake of a, you know, a criticism and a conversation here, one of the things about the movie that's not really a disservice to the movie itself, but I guess to the MCU, is I was disappointed enough with Secret Invasion as it was. This movie only, I thought, undermines Secret Invasion further.
00:49:40
Speaker
It was like, I think we had one throwaway line about like, I think somebody said like, we could have traders on board and Nick was like, or Nick Fury was like, hey, let's not go immediately there. And I was like, okay, that's a reference to secret invasion. But beyond that, the fact that there were scrolls elsewhere other than earth, that there were scroll colonies, I felt like that was kind of a contradiction with some of the things we learned in secret invasion, if I'm not mistaken.
00:50:07
Speaker
I wonder timeline wise, the Marvels was supposed to be before secret invasion. Oh, yeah, maybe if like all this stuff happened while he was on saver and then got summoned back to Earth. Right. Actually, you bringing that up brings up my other point and that it may my point may be refuted if it does take place before. But the fact that Valkyrie and we didn't even talk about the Valkyrie cameo, which I was super glad that wasn't spoiled for me actually had
00:50:30
Speaker
none of the in-movie cameos spoiled for me. I didn't know about Kate Bishop. I didn't know about Valkyrie, but unfortunately I did have a beast, not binary, but beast was spoiled for me. But no, all that being said, the fact that, yeah, Valkyrie was bringing the scrolls back to earth. And it was like, the president just said the whole extraterrestrials are like, you know,
00:50:55
Speaker
outlawed. That secret invasion came after. Right. Right. Right. Because we know there was a lot of delays with movies and stuff. So it's just a matter of like, which one was supposed to come first. Yeah, because I think this movie originally was actually supposed to come out before quantum mania. And this movie in quantum mania switched dates when they realized that quantum mania was like further along in development.
00:51:23
Speaker
Yeah. Um, originally I brought up earth's mightiest heroes is because the accusers were such a big part of that and why it was so excited to see Ronan. And while I feel like Ronan didn't get the stage he deserved, they did a better job with the accusers in this one because the whole purpose of the accusers.
00:51:40
Speaker
was to determine whether a planet falls under the empire or if they get destroyed. And that's essentially what she was doing. She was like, all right, you have resources to make Hala better. Fuck this place entirely. And even with the conversation with the skull, she was like, all right, it's settled. You guys will be part of the empire. So the fact that that dialogue correlates with what I enjoyed about their roles in Earth's Might as heroes was pretty awesome. And also what this role is like,
00:52:11
Speaker
The Skrulls and that secret invasion kind of helped with this was that they weren't good guys, right? It was the Skrulls versus the Kree, and there were Kree who didn't like the Empire stuff, and there were Skrulls who were basically refugees to war. So I like that we're seeing both sides of it from both parts. We haven't seen too much of the good guy
00:52:33
Speaker
Cree. There was air quotes for the people listening, obviously. Right, right. But the fact that we got to see like, the bad guys and scroll and understand like why this war was actually going on because they were those like, the warrior scrolls and they were the ones who were like fighting back to create because there was territory battles on both ends. It just seems like in this universe, it's the Cree that's prevailing.
00:52:56
Speaker
Yeah, and thinking of the comics and, you know, you referencing Earth's Mightiest Heroes and stuff like that, from my understanding, the Kree and the Skrull have kind of like switched roles in the cinematic universe, whereas like, yeah, both sides have their like heroic and unsavory sides, but typically in the comics, we spent more time with the heroic Kree, and, you know, the villainous ones were more few and far between, whereas the Skrulls by and large were more villainous, and it's the exact opposite in our cinematic universe here.
00:53:25
Speaker
Yeah, because Mar-Vell was a was a Cree who was disguised as a scientist on Earth. And he was working with Carol Danvers and he just loved Earth and loved human culture and wanted to be a scientist and work with Carol and yada yada. And Danvers got her powers because of an accident in the lab that fused with his powers and she named herself after him. And it was like all that wild stuff.
00:53:50
Speaker
Yeah, which is interesting because I don't think she's even, I think she made even a point of like referencing the line. Like she never calls herself captain Marvel. Yeah. Interesting thing. But yeah. Uh, you know, yeah, this depiction hasn't moved entirely away from that. What's that?
00:54:08
Speaker
Did you say Aunt Carol? Oh, right. That's supposed to be top secret. I said Carol got her powers from light, is what I said. Anyway. God, her show on Kate in Nick Fury fashion was just so perfect. I was losing it.
00:54:28
Speaker
Yeah, it was great. I've got your in town. And she even says, you're like, if this is toxic information, why can't you see it from the other side? Just like how we always address the cap and sunglasses thing. Yeah. I love this movie so much. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed.
00:54:54
Speaker
Alrighty, well thanks for sticking around and hearing our thoughts on the Marvels. Let's get on out of here. Bye.