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Young Justice Phantoms Finale - S4 E26: Death and Rebirth
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Andrew and J Scotty (with a cameo from Zuhair) tackle the much anticipated conclusion to Young Justice Phantoms with the fourth season's 26th episode and finale: Death and Rebirth, while addressing some listener feedback.
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Transcript
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Young Justice Phantoms Finale Discussion
00:00:45
Speaker
On another very exciting edition of Animation Deliberation, we are celebrating the season finale of Young Justice Phantoms, Young Justice Season 4, Episode 26, Death and Rebirth. We're going to get right into that after some ads we have no say over whatsoever.
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00:02:10
Speaker
Sing along if you know the words. One, two, three, it's time for animation, deliberation. A conversation and a celebration of our favorite action animated series. Yeah. Yeah. Woo.
00:02:28
Speaker
Okay, folks, welcome back to Animation Deliberation, the podcast that takes action animation and cartoons seriously, but not too seriously. My name is Jay Scotty St. Clair, and I am joined by my illustrious co host here, Mr. Andrew Rogers. What's up, my friend? I am overwhelmed, not even whelmed feeling the aster. It's just
00:02:50
Speaker
I am so amped up. This finale was everything I wanted it to be and more somehow. So I just, I'm so excited to be here, you know, going over everything, Young Justice. I'm sad it's over, but I don't think I've been as happy with the finale as I was coming out of this one.
00:03:08
Speaker
very interesting. I had anticipated that you'd be pretty relieved, but hearing just how high you are on the episode is kind of getting me even more excited to have this discussion. So we will not hold off for too long. I do want to make mention though, we are a member short. Unfortunately, as you hear in a moment of heroics, he held the boom tube open for us. And when we came out on the other side, he was not to be found. But
Zuhair's Take on the Finale
00:03:35
Speaker
We know that he's out there, we've communicated with him telepathically and he is here to provide us with some thoughts. Zuhair, wherever you are, let us know what you're thinking. Hey everybody, Zuhair here. Sorry I wasn't able to make it for this awesome finale. Life just definitely got the better of me and yeah, sorry I couldn't make it. Hopefully everybody enjoyed it as much as I did. I'm gonna just give my little quick opinion so that you guys get to hear from me just from a little bit.
00:04:03
Speaker
So I'm gonna talk about the intense stuff first and at the beginning at the ending actually you know we talked a lot about wondering what was going to happen to Mary and then the speculation of Kara possibly coming up especially when the conversation of Kryptonians got heavier and heavier
00:04:21
Speaker
boy did I not think that they were both going to be villains and part of Darkseid's army and we were wondering like what his intent is and how he's gonna pose a thread and hoping that we still have a Level of Kryptonian threat so that there's something to look forward to there's more of the building and molding of like stuff that we've gotten from the season But that was a huge twist I just wow
00:04:49
Speaker
Aside from that, this episode was awesome. The action was fun. You know, reminiscing to old maneuvers and the chemistry between the characters and stuff that we understand and even like the mind blast that McGahn gave to Superboy getting the flashbacks and really being able to see the girls was awesome. You know, Dick talks about how Dick talks about how they've gotten really good at faking their debts and I hate them for it, but I'm glad that they're all alive.
00:05:18
Speaker
I was very confused and glad they gave an explanation. It seemed like a little bit of a cop-out, but overall, I think that everything that followed up was very well done. So action was great. I'm glad that the Kryptonians are still in the picture. Metron's a savage. I love how all that played out in his favor. Wedding was beautiful. It was cool seeing all the characters together. I'm hoping for more Justice League interaction with all the team later on. We know that it's a huge part.
00:05:47
Speaker
Um, yeah, the show is just wonderful. I hope that you guys have been enjoying watching and enjoying the coverage. Uh, like I said, this is a show that unfortunately is at risk of being canceled. So please, please, please support it as best as you can. If you can have it in playing in the background or, you know, just watch it again. Cause it's that good of a show, you know, recommended to your friends have forced them to watch it.
00:06:13
Speaker
You know, whatever you have to do, it just personally mean a lot to me. If you could support Young Justice to whatever capacity that you can, it would mean a lot. I'm sure Jay Scottie and Andrew are doing a fantastic job as always. Hopefully I will be back to talk to you guys again soon. So until then, stay well.
00:06:35
Speaker
Wow, who would have known that a Metron had some microphones hiding in that vault of his? I guess that's kind of a nice little way for him to get through to us finally, but unfortunately we don't have those thoughts now, so we can't do much more than crack some jokes about him recording them. We have talked to him, he's doing well, and we can't wait to hear what those thoughts are whenever they do come through to us. Well said.
Listener Predictions and Reactions
00:07:01
Speaker
Okay, as
00:07:03
Speaker
Eager we are to get into the nitty gritty of this episode, we do have to have everyone wait just a little bit longer. We had an email from last week's episode, one of our most dedicated listeners, a person I'm really appreciative for, Mr. TJ Stafford. He wrote in with an email that was just too well informed not to read at the opening of the episode. So Andrew, you've got that for us. Take it away.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah, so TJ wrote into us and it was just after we posted the podcast, so it wasn't like he wrote this after seeing the finale. So this was before the finale. He said, sorry, he missed the recording. He was abducted by the Legion and asked to save the future. So we're happy he's back with us now.
00:07:44
Speaker
Anyway, he had a bit of a prediction. You guys talked about the crash of bioship and that everyone was incapacitated except for Superman. I don't buy it. Not with two gifted telepaths on board. When Saturn girl first spotted the eye of Ekron, she mentally shouted to everyone, Listen,
00:08:00
Speaker
She knew they were in trouble, and I suspected she and McGann use their psionic powers to project an image of everyone being incapacitated. I'm guessing they will drop the act and save Superman once the opportune moment arises. As for Nightwing's untimely demise, I don't buy that either. Maybe it's complete denial talking, but I can't buy it at all.
00:08:20
Speaker
At least completely. I'm fairly certain that you guys had it right and time travel shenanigans will ensue to bring him back. If my predictions are wrong, feel free to junk this email. Guess what? We're reading it because you might be a telepath yourself with this vision of the future you have going on. And he's anxiously awaiting and dreading the finale all at once. I don't know how it's going to end, but I suspect there will be joy and sadness abound. Let's see what happens. Signed, TJ Stafford.
00:08:48
Speaker
Wow. Wow. I just got to say, TJ, if your ability to read the stock market is anything like your ability to read the show in your terms of buying and selling, I'm going to need you to be my financial advisor because you are right on the money, my friend. Well, well played.
00:09:08
Speaker
Yeah, I couldn't have guessed it. And I almost said something along the lines of, you know, Nightwing slowing down his pulse. But even in the back of my head, I was like, this is so preposterous. I'm not going to bring it up because that's like some ninja nonsense.
00:09:24
Speaker
So then to get into the episode, with TJ's email in mind as well as my own thoughts, it was just like, I should have said it. We were all right. We were on that track, but they did a good job of making it feel like everything mattered with the Zod's and it paid off in droves in the finale. Yeah, yeah.
Finale Resolution and Action Highlights
00:09:42
Speaker
Keeping in mind that we don't have Zuhair's real time thoughts, I'm kind of
00:09:48
Speaker
I'll be interested to hear what he has to say because as we were going over last week's episode, we were, you know, putting predictions out there. And I even remember, you know, as wrong as I was about so many things, like they did fake us out on not one, but two. And then even this episode, a third death. The one thing I did get right is that the conflict was resolved by the end and we got to see the wedding. And I know that was one thing Zuhair said he was a little hesitant about. He would have preferred to see this conflict get extended
00:10:17
Speaker
into another season, but it set up quite like a good reveal. I did not see it coming at all. And the fact that both of you guys did, it's pretty impressive to me. I mean, there were little cues here and there. We know Nightwing's, his history with Bruce, our Batman, a little nod there. And the fact that he did an illusion of his own, it was just a forehead cut that bled a lot more and looked a lot worse than it did.
00:10:48
Speaker
Yeah, learning everything in pretty much the opening there was quite a relief. And I can only imagine how happy you were. You were probably jumping up and down knowing that Nightwing was okay in the long run. But it made a lot of sense for the way things went down, even on bio-ship. It was Superman and Orion that took the brunt of it and even... Not O'Brien, Orion. He was incapacitated alongside, I believe it was,
00:11:16
Speaker
Black Lightning and Forager, I believe are the other two that they said were out of commission. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was definitely jumping for joy. And I don't know how these writers did it. And I would love to hear your opinions on this as well, Jay Scottie. They somehow, despite bringing all of these characters back from the death, the brink of death this season, they somehow have made everything believable so that death still has weight, usually shows
00:11:45
Speaker
when they start to get into resurrection or faking deaths, you're like, okay, now no death matters whatsoever. Yet there was that moment when the Emerald Empress reached into McGahn's chest and pulled out her heart Indiana Jones style, I thought it was
00:12:01
Speaker
I had a moment of panic where I thought it was all over. I was like, this is the character we're actually going to kill off. There's no way. And then for her still to come back again from the brink, I was like, I don't know how they can do it so well, but they somehow have managed to weave it in so that you could believe anyone's going to die as much as no one's going to die. And I, I love it. I don't know how, but I just love it. Yeah, I agree. Definitely that moment with McGann where we saw Ursa's odds
00:12:31
Speaker
fists just go right into her chest and the look on her face and the sound design behind all of that was just so grotesque and really horrifying in a way as well. I agree with you. It felt completely real and I agree with you as well that all these fake out deaths weren't gratuitous. They were all believable and they
00:12:54
Speaker
made sense with how intelligent our characters are. The one that I found a little convenient initially was Rocket's Return, but the payoff that we got for that eventually completely sold me and that's one of the actual deaths that we got is what that led to. But also I'm thinking of like
00:13:12
Speaker
the show all along the way, the way that we still feel that permanence of death and that threat is that Wally West has not come back. And there were so many nods to Wally in this episode when they took out the hulking Kryptonian, the West maneuver. Exactly. Yeah. Just really, really good. And then even when
00:13:36
Speaker
I loved Kid Flash in this episode even though he didn't have a giant role, but when he was running around saying yoink, yoink, double yoink, triple yoink. And then when he got grabbed by the Kryptonian and Artemis slash Tigress said, Kid, it was just obvious she had such an affinity for him given his connection to Wally. So yeah, I'm right there with you. The show never ceases to surprise or amaze.
00:14:04
Speaker
Yeah, no, there was that it was Kid Flash energy coming out of, well, Kid Flash, that I felt like we hadn't really been grafted to him as our new Kid Flash yet. And this kind of cemented, okay, he's a part of these teams now. We love him. But as we talk about the West maneuver,
00:14:21
Speaker
I just want to talk about that whole fight in general. It was super well choreographed and I loved getting to see everyone showcasing their powers, how unique they were, everyone going toe to toe. It felt like there was no totally overpowered people in the scenario. It was a really well done fight and it just felt like, okay, here's your budget.
00:14:42
Speaker
Go nuts getting to watch everyone do these different things seeing Aquaman take charge just like the old days with the original team It was just so well done. It reminded me of all the Tigris fights that we loved in that Second arc that were just perfect against the League of Shadows. It had that same Gravitas and weight when they were throwing each other around and throwing punches it it just felt beautiful Throughout the entirety of it. I loved it despite it not being very long
00:15:13
Speaker
Oh yeah, I noticed when I looked at the time stamp for the episode, by the time the conflict was resolved for the most part, we were transitioning to the wedding. It was 17 minutes, so it was a 27 minute episode, so it only took up probably about a third because we had the reveal about Dick's survival as well as the illusion that McGann and Saturn grilled created. And then so there was probably just, you know,
00:15:43
Speaker
a good five minutes of action overall, but I completely agree with you. It was super well choreographed. I have to say, I think the star of the show, in a way, was the Eye of Ekron. It was just wreaking havoc and seeing it fire off those green blasts and when Zatanna tried to engulf it into a bubble of fire, I think, because that's what her spell was saying backwards, something to that extent. It just did nothing for her. Fire, burn, and eyeball bubble.
00:16:13
Speaker
There we go, okay. Eyeball bubble, that makes sense, okay. But the fact that she was just like, I'm outmatched here magically.
Character Development and Conflict
00:16:20
Speaker
I need a new dance partner, which I just, I love the language there. Yeah, there was a lot of great dialogue. I liked it when Nightwing even referred to McGann when he was talking about this threat that they were going up against. He's like, you're a ray of sunshine that's hiding a dangerous demigod. Yes, I need you to do,
00:16:40
Speaker
I know you're scared to tap into that power you have, but you need to do it.
00:16:45
Speaker
And she didn't hold back. She was going for it that whole time. She was. Right. Right. And. Yeah. And that was another thing that we talked a lot about in the past couple of episodes. I like that we didn't dwell on McGann getting mad at everyone with why didn't you tell me that Connor was alive and we were bringing him back. She was just like, wait, you were trying to save him. So was I. My husband's alive or my fiance is alive. This is amazing. Like.
00:17:13
Speaker
it goes back into the difference that you find in stories that you think to yourself you want it to go this way because story tropes over the years have told us this is what's gonna happen writers always do this in reality someone's probably going to be relieved excited be in that moment full of adrenaline hang on I have this chance and I like that they took that direction I don't feel like it took away from the episode that we didn't have that and instead we just got the great reunion and
00:17:43
Speaker
That also wasn't abundant. It was, hey, guess what? I'm going to show you our life together in your mind because I'm a telepath and you're going to fall back in love with me, which is kind of the only logical way all of that can happen with the powers we know she has. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good point. I will admit on my first watch when that that moment happened when she was reunited and Dick described the fact that, you know, the other heroes were in Metropolis already.
00:18:13
Speaker
was a quick second where I was like, hmm, they're not going to have that conversation about keeping secrets. But you're right. The show has done enough of that. And she would just be overjoyed that Connor's still around. And given the stakes that we were dealing with at that point in time, it only makes sense for the team to come together. But yeah, I picked up on that as well. It was a great character moment between McGann and Connor when she
00:18:36
Speaker
when he has that moment like, oh no, not you. And she's like, oh yes, it's me. He's like, stay away from me, I'm a killer. She's like, no, I know your mind touch and I know you would never harm me. And she does get to show him his life, but kind of what stood out to me before all that is that he was able to rehabilitate himself when it came to his own brother. Oh my God, that was so touching.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah, just getting to see all that and how he took Jonathan and Martha Kent as his own parents and his moments with his nephew there. Just really heartwarming stuff, but then the fact that he was gunning for Aquaman right after that was kind of concerning. It's like, you don't remember all the good times you had with your buddy Aquaman? Come on. Honestly, I was waiting for that to be the reveal of him to look at him and be like, hey, idiot, I'm your family too. Remember me. Yeah, yeah.
00:19:28
Speaker
No, it was it was a lot of emotion out of Superboy, which it goes back to the growth of remember when he was an angsty teen in season one and we're like show some emotion. And now he has all of that to be able to rehabilitate himself on his own was just wondrous. Mm hmm. Yeah.
00:19:48
Speaker
It really felt like, again, I'm confident we'll get that season five and I want that season five, but if I shouldn't even speak into existence, but if we weren't to get that season five, this almost felt like a serious finale in a way, just paying so much homage to how far these characters have come. And Superboy, I mean, really has come such a long way. And the wedding scene where he had the haircut, I know I'm kind of going off on
00:20:16
Speaker
getting a little bit ahead of myself, but just like talking about how far he's come and how much he's changed. He's always kind of stayed the same physically. That's kind of a little bit of a humorous part of his character, but seeing it with that haircut and being fully healed, just yeah, a nice little cherry on top. Yeah, he cleans up nice. He does. He does. We're a dead guy. We're a dead guy. That's right. That was the joke. Yeah.
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah, and before we pivot off of the fight scene into the wedding, kind of the last thing that I was thinking, as much as I know you guys and myself included, we're talking about how we want this fight scene. We want the conflict between the Zod's to be a little longer. When the fight ended, I kind of realized it had to end there when the whole rest of the Justice League showed up.
00:21:08
Speaker
remembering that Earth has this multitude of protectors, the Zods would have been outmatched. The minute the whole League showed up, especially if Batman got there, they were done for. There was no way they actually could have stood up unless the sun had come up and the army had come through, then there would be that conversation. Without that, they were done for and it looked like the Justice League showed up just before the sun was coming up. So
00:21:34
Speaker
I honestly think taking some of those threats away early was a pretty good call because again, you would have had this question in the back of your mind of where's the Justice League? Where's the Justice League? Well, they were on their way. It did happen. So letting the team do it instead, I think was just a better writing decision while also making sure to leave some of our threats at large for next season to still continue this battle into the future.
00:22:02
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a great point. And thinking about the armies of Zod and the only reason that they didn't really get to come through was because of Malefalak and his exchange with Danny Chase. And just, I guess I didn't pick up on it for some reason. I guess it was alluded to with how fearful Danny Chase was of Malefalak. But when McGann had the line of dialogue that my brother
00:22:29
Speaker
did this to this kid. He was the one that forced this mother box on him and turned him into what he was. They continue to make Malefak more and more cruel. There was a point in time where I thought there might be some hope of saving their relationship, especially given the fact that both of his sisters were introduced into the show early on in the season.
00:23:00
Speaker
I don't know. Here at the end here, I mean, what's that? I said, I don't know. I could almost make an argument for him having some redemption going forward. You think? I just think about when McGann forced him into the Phantom Zone, that just the venom behind what she said, like you were happy when Connor died, and he's just giving out that terrified no, no, no, no, as he falls into the Phantom Zone.
00:23:24
Speaker
Well, let's go into because there's more to this conversation than just that fight. The scene, kind of where my Alafa Akh is escorted onto this planet by the apocalyptic in guard. Right. What the guard said of, you know, this is what we promised you here is an empty planet for the Asha. I believe is how it's pronounced, which is the white Martians as much as it's terrible to, you know,
00:23:52
Speaker
You need to find out where the limits are because having someone who's willing to do anything for their people, they create problems, they become dictators, all these different things. But he was really trying to do this to get the white Martians off of Mars where they were persecuted for so long. And I think that's what he's going to be. I have a funny feeling the next time we see him, he's going to be leading a colony of white Martians that are free and happy on this new planet of
00:24:23
Speaker
There's a little more to that conversation as well. But as we're talking about Malefic specifically, I think there is going to be some future conflict of, hey, you guys on earth do what you're going to do. I'm done messing with you.
00:24:39
Speaker
I'm just gonna take care of this planet and they're like you were kind of evil before but I guess you're good it's gonna be almost a Brion situation of like we don't like what you're doing over there but you're doing it for reasons I guess we can respect
00:24:55
Speaker
I guess I can appreciate that standpoint. His motives are not entirely sadistic. I guess he's doing it for a subjected or a people that have been subjugated for a long time, but I don't know just some of his actions and how callous and unremorseful he really seems at this point. Everything you said may be true, but I don't see
00:25:19
Speaker
a situation where he and McGann are on speaking terms or doing anything but being at each other's throats for a long time. But I did want to spin off what you brought up there about him having this planet of Derla because it was never said out loud, at least not in that scene that we saw. When he asked, does this planet have a name, we just got the location card there that said Derla. And we heard Derla earlier on when the chameleon boy was talking about, they were having this debate about whether or not
00:25:49
Speaker
they should keep the Kryptonians in the Phantom Zone because they'd already served their time. And Aquaman had brought that up earlier in the season. He told Zod himself. He's like, we will have a trial for you. We will put you on this planet of Trombus in the meantime. But it makes me wonder about how, as much as the timeline seems to be restored and have been put back intact, as I recall, Chameleon Boy said, once they were released on
00:26:18
Speaker
once the Kryptonians were released from the Phantom Zone and put on Daxam, Derla was the first planet they conquered, which sounds like that happened way in the future, but now we're finding that Derla is already this, I don't wanna call it desolate because it seems very vibrant with flora anyway, but it doesn't seem to have any natural like intelligent species. So I don't know if that's because
00:26:44
Speaker
Canadian boy species comes around later, or what? So my thoughts of what this implied kind of harkens. So my theory early in the season, as some of you may remember, was that these were Connor and McGann's kids. Nice. We found out that Phantom Girl is from another dimension that she phases between. So that immediately was like, OK, they're not their kids.
00:27:12
Speaker
I kind of took this to say that he's a Martian kid. And again, that's why he can shapeshift. And whatever colony Malafak sets up here will eventually lead to this Martian mutation that is whatever species chameleon boy is now. That's kind of what I thought they were saying, like,
00:27:32
Speaker
Yep, timelines restored, and he's still going to be born on Derla. Whether or not the Zods destroy it in the future is to be seen, but that's how he comes to be. And I'm pivoting that we still don't know Saturn girl's lineage. She could be
00:27:49
Speaker
from Connor and McGahn, because there was that line of Connor saying, why am I important? And her giving the sly, you'll see, it could be as simple as he's going to found the Legion himself, or there could be that little extra layering in there of, hey, I'm your kid, or I'm your great, great, great granddaughter, or whatever that might look like.
00:28:13
Speaker
Now that was where I thought that immediately was alluding to the fact they didn't say Derla, but five minutes earlier in the episode they had said, my home planet of Derla, it was a, it felt like a nod.
00:28:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really good theory. I don't know about Saturn Girl at this point, it could be. And I remember when you first, you know, posited that theory, you thought all three, but we've learned that Phantom Girl just comes from a different, like a planet that's from a parallel dimension. So I think that kind of rules her out a little bit, maybe not, but maybe. And then Saturn Girl, like I said, it still remains to be seen, but I think you very well could be onto something with Chameleon Boy, especially with this like rivalry that seems to have
00:28:56
Speaker
emerged between the two and how much he wanted that rematch. But I guess it is worth noting, Saturn Girl, like both Chameleon Boy and Saturn Girl, like their big like action set pieces were both with Malafak. We talked about that scene with Danny Chase, but Saturn Girl was kind of the one that set him up for that. She's like, will you kick him out of my mind? Why don't you do it? And then like I said, yeah, that whole rematch between
00:29:23
Speaker
the transformed forms of both Chameleon Boy and Mahalafak. So definitely some connections there. I think you could be right on the money, but we'll have to wait to see. Put it on the board. It's on the board. It's there. It's on the board. There we go. Okay. So do we want to continue on this time stream conversation and talk about what happens with Zod next?
00:29:50
Speaker
Or Lord Zod rather. Oh, Lord Zod, yeah. Yeah, Lord Zod specifically. Sure. I mean, I guess both Zod himself and Lord Zod had some things happen to them. Indeed, indeed they did. Yeah, so with
00:30:09
Speaker
mentioning how Rocket made a somewhat unexpected return right in the heat of the battle. She shows up in his repaired time sphere, which he uses as a means of escape, which really, as you know, as much as things seem like they were coming together and finding a resolution that was kind of the last thread, and it was really bothering the Legionnaires. They said,
00:30:31
Speaker
The battle's won, but the war's not over because he's still out there. It basically makes everything we've done kind of pointless. And Metron is a guy that holds a grudge, apparently. I can't fathom how he thought to himself, okay, I know Lorzad's gonna get back in this thing, so I'm gonna set a trap. Like, it could have been anyone that got back in that.
00:30:59
Speaker
It could have been, but somehow he knew, somehow he knew. And yeah, even right before it happened, I was wondering, I was, what is Metron's game? Why would he bring him back to this moment? And I was kind of with Lorsat. I was like, oh, he's getting one more chance to finally get to take out Superboy or do something to the Legionnaires there. Maybe take out Phantom Girls so that Connor never goes to the Phantom Zone. But I got to say as,
00:31:27
Speaker
Prickly and Despicable, Lorzad has been, it was really, it was a grotesque death, but it was still super gratifying and satisfying, yeah. Just to see him undergo the death that he intended for Connor. And knowing that he was the one that put the Krypton on the bomb in the first place. So he really, or Krypton, Kryptonite on the bomb in the first place. So he did that to himself. It was just,
00:31:55
Speaker
It was so good. And then knowing that we got to see the time sphere in that initial fourth episode and wonder to ourselves, what was that about for the entire season? And then have it come that full circle and know he was the charred body that they thought was and that explains how we got to the Phantom Zone. It was just it was amazing. It was full circle. And this is also the problem with DC time travel, because it's not
00:32:22
Speaker
You can have these infinite loops of things that happen, but we're not gonna get into that too much That's how flashpoint happens, but hey It gets messy if you think about it too much just trust me it works Okay, okay
00:32:40
Speaker
No need to get into the timey-whiminess of it all. Timey-whimy. Yeah, yeah, that was definitely one of the highlights of the episode. I mean, it was just a great episode with so many great moments, so many great references. It's kind of hard to really know where to take the conversation because just so, so much happened and so many characters ended up showing up. But I don't know, do you have anything else to say about the proceedings of the episode before we get into the wedding?
00:33:10
Speaker
No, I think that's it until we kind of get into the wedding because there's some things that harken back a little bit. So I say we jump in because there's plenty to talk about here. And I just want to say I was so happy to get the wedding. Like, again, there were all these things that made me think, oh, this makes sense in the episode. This makes sense in the episode. Us cutting the fight short. It was like,
00:33:31
Speaker
Duh, we have to have time for the wedding. Like, we set this up at the beginning. It had to happen. It was so gratifying. There were ninjas cutting onions in my bedroom. And Zuhair likes to say it. Yeah, no, there was a lot of emotion this episode. And I was so happy with how all of this goes. Yeah, let's jump in because this is going to be reference heaven here and the wiki doesn't have notes. So it's going to be totally on us.
00:33:57
Speaker
Okay, well, and we can kind of start with like, what served as like the invitation for the wedding and show was almost the invitation to for us as the viewers and I really appreciated the fact that they acknowledge that Clark had had this conversation with his son about his uncle's death and it's like, okay,
00:34:18
Speaker
we have to pivot back from that, like you came to accept your, I guess he didn't really accept it because he didn't seem surprised at all that his uncle was still there, but just getting to see how our heroes are actually like dutiful parents as well and approach these things with so much good intention and are just so careful with the new generation, you know,
00:34:46
Speaker
depending on how long young justice goes, we might see Johnny take up the mantle himself before too long. But yeah, just a great moment. And then him saying, would you like to see him again? And then that's the perfect cue to bring up this wedding video with Connor and McGann. And they're just so giddy and so happy to be back together. How can you not just
00:35:09
Speaker
How can it not just make you well up with happiness yourself? Oh, yeah. And there was a moment during the wedding that I was like, wait, why didn't they bring the altar that they built on Mars? Like, why didn't they bring that down? That was a big part of the set piece. They acknowledge that in that video of, nope, we are way too excited. We are back together. We're having this wedding like tomorrow. I don't. Let's see. All right. So there was a little bit of time it appears.
00:35:38
Speaker
Okay. No, we had to heal up at least a little bit. I don't know how long that takes underneath the yellow sun, but he was pretty.
00:35:46
Speaker
No, it was two days. Wow. September 14th was when they were fighting in Metropolis and Happy Harbor is listed as September 16th. So it was two days, actually a day because it went from midnight through. So it was the morning of September 15th was when the sun came up over Metropolis. September 16th was when they went to have that wedding.
00:36:11
Speaker
All right, so extra kudos to Snapper Car for doing what he needed to do and getting that certification to be a wedding officiator because he mentioned it happened last night, but he came through for his friends, so good stuff. Yeah, and it makes sense. They want to do it as soon as possible before any other threats or supervillains can
00:36:33
Speaker
thorough wrench into the proceedings. And just mentioning villains, I got a huge kick out of the fact that Icicle Jr. was there given his history with this couple, especially the last time he saw him. He was like, while he was fighting Superboy, he's like kind of congratulated him on the nuptials, so hilarious. And then proceeded to catch the bouquet. Yes, yes, which we found through the credit scene.
00:36:58
Speaker
Yeah, no, it was great. And forgive me for not recalling who this character was. Who was that guy in the back row? That was like all of my friends are superheroes. And I had no idea because everyone thought that I already knew. That was one character I didn't quite reference. I can't remember his name, but I think it goes all the way back to like season one when they were in high school. And we the first time we saw like Mal and Karen at like a Halloween dance. I think he was the
00:37:28
Speaker
I think he was one of the students that was there at the Halloween dance with them. That was kind of nerdy. That is correct. He is a student from Happy Harbor High School. His name is Marvin White. There we go. Funnily enough, also voiced by Nolan North, the voice of Superboy and Superman. Nice. That's why the name stuck out on the list. I was like, hang on. I think this has to be it, which is an even better joke that Nolan North is sitting there at the wedding.
00:37:58
Speaker
But yeah, and then before the wedding started, we had what seemed like a little bit of exposition and guessing for what's going to happen in the future, first with the Justice League and then with Garfield as well. So the Justice League's moment, where do you think that's going?
00:38:18
Speaker
Are you referring to Dinah's conversation about needing a sanctuary for our heroes from the various forces needing a place for respite? Yes. I probably should have clarified that question. No, no. You're good. No, no. My mind was racing trying to figure out exactly what you're referring to.
Mental Health Themes in Young Justice
00:38:40
Speaker
It made sense that it was that.
00:38:44
Speaker
You know, I'm not too sure if I have like predictions or speculations, but my main takeaway is that I just continue to appreciate how this show, it gives us these excellent bombastic action sequences. It has a little bit of the flare there for the people that like romance and relationships.
00:39:01
Speaker
The thing that keeps bringing me back to the show, especially in these later seasons, is just the attention to detail, especially when it comes to social issues, but mental health issues as well, and just bringing up Garfield. We'll get into the exact revelations there, but Dino Lance has just been such a great character, and I talked about Black Lightning in the previous episode, how great it is to have him as a leader, because he's gone through it. He's gone through that trauma, and he knows that these heroes need
00:39:29
Speaker
to take a break and they need to have their mental health checked on just as much as their physical health. So it just makes the show that much more believable for me and it helps endear me to these characters that they're that well-rounded that their psychological wellbeing is taken into consideration.
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah, and as you say, you know, the young and the old characters, I like that we also had Zatanna sitting there. He's been through so much being under the initial, you know, doctor of fate helm. So if anyone really needs to have that getaway and have that rest, it's definitely him. So yeah, I agree bringing up that conversation. It was so perfectly poignant. And
00:40:14
Speaker
Yeah, the only thing I could have guessed was maybe sending them to New Genesis as the getaway because you had Bear come through the portal right as they were being like, where can we send these people? I didn't know, but it was also really good coming off of the conversation that Garfield had on TV.
00:40:33
Speaker
about saying, yeah, you know, I'm not coming back to the TV show yet. I'm not coming back to the outsiders yet. But yeah, I hope that I can use this as a moment to inspire even one of my fans to go get the help that they need. It was amazing to see how much he grew, because that was the same conversation McGahn had with him after he had his memory messed with on Mars. So to see him acknowledging that getting the help, it was flawlessly done.
00:41:02
Speaker
in a way that like it felt like he was speaking to an audience on our side of the TV not just on the world side of the TV it was so good and you know without hammering it too much to all of our listeners out there we've gotten some letters and stuff from you that
00:41:18
Speaker
You know, we've been helping and we're great for that are grateful that we've been able to help some of you But as always get the help that you need besides just you know listening to young justice and stuff We're happy to make your friends or be your friends and make your lives better. But you know always Take those extra steps. Take care of yourself, you know do great things and yeah, that's one of the perks of
00:41:40
Speaker
you might notice that there's some weeks that like, I'm not here, it's because I'm busy and stressed. And I just let Zuhair and Jay Scottie take the week and like, that's kind of how we do it. It's not anything serious. But sometimes you got to take a break. And I've done it before. I recommend you all do that. I felt like it was a kind of good time to say that as we're talking about Garfield. Yeah, definitely. And, you know,
00:42:03
Speaker
Piggybacking right off of that, that was an excellent moment for him. And I appreciate everything you said. I'm going to make a joke, but that doesn't take away from the seriousness of the issue. Please do. Yeah, without sounding like a PBS afternoon special here, I will say the most heroic thing you can do is to ask for help. And we saw that with Garfield this season when he was trying to go it alone and isolating himself. It's just a recipe for disaster.
00:42:32
Speaker
You're never alone. There are resources out there and don't be afraid to ask for help. With all that being said, yeah, with Garfield, it's just been awesome to see him come all the way back around and have that moment. And even the moment there with Perdita, it was kind of bittersweet, but it's heartwarming to know that she still has that love and compassion for him, but she couldn't wait around forever. And it's also one of the things
00:43:02
Speaker
my own personal journey that I've learned, you have to know how to establish healthy boundaries. When someone's abusing you, whether it's physically, mentally, or emotionally, you have to know where to set up those boundaries. And she's still there for him, and it seems like they're still going to be friends, but she had to move on, and that's okay, and he needs to accept that. We didn't get any dialogue from him in that moment, but it looked like he
00:43:24
Speaker
know, the way he looked down at his corgi wingman that he accepted it and he was going to do what he needed to do. I did want to circle back a little bit to what you brought up though about like new Genesis possibly being like a
00:43:38
Speaker
Before you go on to that, I did want to tack on one thing with the Perdita conversation. You said everything amazing, and I love the acceptance of it. I love the acknowledgement that love doesn't disappear. Even if you move on, sometimes it's still going to be there because you do care about people. I have one hope, and I've been hoping for this for multiple seasons. Maybe this is opening the door for Raven. There's so many comics out there where Raven and Beast Boy are the couple of the Teen Titans.
00:44:06
Speaker
We no longer have Perdita. Let's just roll this in and bring her on and have her be the love interest. I would be so happy. Although. McGann was giving off some Miss Martian vibes during that fight with the hood up. She had the white skin. I was kind of like, hmm, this is a little reminiscent of another pale witchy character that we know that flies around with a purple hood on. I didn't know if they were trying to make that illusion or not, but I wanted to loop that all in as we were talking about Perdita and
00:44:36
Speaker
It's always going to be a character building moment and they're setting up for something. Who knows what that thing is, but I have to throw in. Just give me all of the original Teen Titans, please. Even if it's one episode where this version of Cyborg, this version of Beast Boy,
00:44:51
Speaker
this version of Robin, because I think Tim Drake's around, so throw Tim Drake in there, give us a Starfire, give it all to me, and I think people will lose their minds, because there's so many people that want to come back and see Teen Titans again. If they did it via Young Justice, there's your viewership numbers right there. Just write it in, everybody's going to flock to it again, and then give us seven more seasons and we'll be happy.
00:45:17
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with you. Even if it's just one mission on one episode, it could even be like the opening of like a new season is like the five of them. Well, I mean, the Teen Titans from the old TV show is five. The comics, there's seven hundred iterations in the same way. The Fantastic Four has a punch. The Teen Titans are our own thing. But the five I'm thinking of. Yeah, I'm thinking of that core five. Just have like an episode open with them like
00:45:45
Speaker
in the middle of a mission together, that would be excellent. And yeah, I'm totally on board for it. Yeah, I did wanna go back to that possibility for New Genesis you brought up because I didn't really think about it till now, but General Zod had that line of dialogue at the beginning when he was talking about how Superman was sent to Earth rather than New Genesis, and he could have been sent to New Genesis and just been a regular
00:46:15
Speaker
nondescript, another inhabitants of there. So I think that gives a lot of credence to your theory. Like if heroes were to go to new Genesis, not only is it a relatively peaceful planet, but whatever conflict does arrive, there are new gods there that can step up so that these heroes don't necessarily have to. It can kind of be like their version of a galactic day spa.
00:46:36
Speaker
So yeah. And interestingly enough, we did have that treaty, I believe went through during Rockets Park that, you know, they're going to start working with the Justice League. So that would be an interesting way to pause it, because I don't think Earth has anything like that. And it feels like they were definitely setting up for it, saying, hey, we'll have the Justice League reserves. So let's say, I don't know.
00:47:01
Speaker
Martian Manhunter wants to go on a little vacation. He can, and then they can pull up whoever would fill in that spot from the reserves and say, all right, you're going to be on duty as Martian Manhunter would have been for this period of time. They've definitely set it up, and I'm curious to know.
00:47:20
Speaker
what the answer is because it's so cool to get this look at the Justice League that I don't think any of the other animated shows or movies have done a good job of actually giving us the political workings and how they're maneuvering in the planning. It's just been a lot more monster of the week stories. So this is a really, really cool thing to see the actual strategy and who's in charge, why they're in charge.
00:47:45
Speaker
Yeah, because most of the TV shows Batman or Superman is in charge. We've had three or four different Justice League leaders throughout all these seasons. So there's been different decision making, different size of the teams. It's just it's also cool and good. And I know I love talking and, you know, great dialogue. And I think that's why I love this finale, despite it not being super action packed.
00:48:08
Speaker
And this is just more of the same, like give me a whole TV show about this version of the Justice League and how they're interacting with the UN and I would be happy as could be. Yeah. Great points and well said. And even with it being so dialogue heavy, we did talk at length about that action sequence. It was so intense and so it delivered on so many fronts that I think it's okay to have that balance between very intense action and then just
00:48:37
Speaker
great character moments like this, but talking about the various leaders of the Justice League, I just wanted to say we haven't forgotten about you, Captain Adam. I don't know when you'll be showing up again, but we haven't forgotten about you. Was Captain Adam also the one that was just shown in the trailer for Black Adam, or was that a different... Oh, that was Adam Smasher. Adam Smasher, apologies. I was trying to get excited for that.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's funny, you know, having watched this show, I like the character of Dr. Fate beforehand because of the injustice, uh, video games, but I gotta say Pierce Brosnan's Dr. Fate was probably my favorite part of that trailer and what got me the most excited. I mean,
00:49:18
Speaker
We talk about the dream castings in comic book things of Hugh Jackman as Wolverine, Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool, Robert Downey Jr. as Iron Man, Pierce Brosnan as Dr. Fate is, I think, going to be in that same realm of conversation of this is perfection. But you talk about the Injustice video games. And how did you like our time traveler from the future that came back for the Legion?
00:49:47
Speaker
Oh, right. So they called him Brainy, but it was pretty obvious to me that he was one of the iterations of Brainiac. I don't know if it was Brainiac 5 or Brainiac 500, but... Yeah, credited as Brainiac 5 for the... Oh, was he Brainiac 5? Wow. I didn't even look it up. That's cool. Wow. Pulled that one off. That's impressive. Nice. Yeah. I must have been somewhere deep within the recesses of my mind, but...
00:50:13
Speaker
Yeah, it was cool. He didn't get a ton of time there, but it was nice to see some of the fellow members of the Legionnaires and he gave us that vote of confidence that the timeline was at least 99 point
00:50:28
Speaker
something percentage restored. Yeah, it was what was it 0.016 was the remaining either 0.016 or like 1.6. Don't worry about that part, just get in the time sphere. And that I think does give some credence back to chameleon boy being from
00:50:47
Speaker
Martian lineage because if the timeline is that much restored Then that has to be the answer to it in some capacity that they stayed on Derla and that's how we got to him but I feel like we should give a little bit of background for those listeners out there that don't know who Brainiac is and
00:51:06
Speaker
Oh yeah, of course. There's iterations of him in comics and different media. The injustice one is the one that both J. Scotty and myself are most familiar with. So we're going to use that as reference as we talk about it here. He is basically an all knowing being from across the universe that kind of goes around and destroys planets and worlds.
00:51:27
Speaker
in order to basically suck up their knowledge if you notice the Brainiac had like this kind of crown of circles. He kind of plugs those into his brain and then just gathers the knowledge from the planet as he destroys it. And he's kind of akin to there's a lot of conversation in the Marvel world of Kang the Conqueror that goes through time and conquers. He literally just goes through the universe and takes out planets and in the Injustice storyline, he actually is responsible for the destruction of Krypton.
00:51:53
Speaker
So to kind of give credence to how powerful of a being Brainiac is in some iterations, he is just a destroyer of worlds to the point of taking out the Kryptonians and sending both Kara and
00:52:09
Speaker
Superman to earth in that storyline specifically so there's a lot of background on that character I don't know where they're gonna go or if that was just a nod to those of us who know this character to be like wait He's a good guy here, and that's this version of the story But they're known for switching sides of good guys and bad guys with some characters and
00:52:32
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm not so well versed in the comics and the background to know this for
00:52:40
Speaker
or be able to quote any runs or anything like that. But I think it's not a first for this animated series in particular. I think we have seen benevolent versions of Brainiac in the past. And I'm wondering, it's because they're so far in the future, they have access to so much knowledge that he doesn't feel the need to go on a conquest to get it. He's just got it at his disposal. I'm not sure, or maybe his exploits over the years,
00:53:10
Speaker
you know, continue to evolve. I don't know, in a lot of belief systems, the kind of like highest form you can evolve to or like the highest enlightenment you can achieve is just this acceptance and not need to make waves or not need to conquer just accept the world as it is. So maybe he just
00:53:31
Speaker
he achieved the highest level of intellect in that regard. I'm not too sure about the benevolent version of Brainiac as far as the background goes there, but he does seem to be heroic. So something really interesting.
00:53:43
Speaker
They wrote the spin-off comics that we've talked about that are, I think, considered canon because Greg Weizmann was a part of them when they did them. I think between the first and second season is when they wrote the original set of spin-off comics. This is not the ones we talked about a couple weeks ago. Those are coming to fill in the gaps between three and four.
00:54:03
Speaker
They had a couple comics, and in some of those comics, there actually was a benevolent version of Brainiac that was an android that showed up to try and conquer and gather knowledge exactly like we're talking about. So I guess somewhere in the storyline they have accounted for that, which is kind of cool. I can't find any reference to him showing up in the show, but he is in, I think, five or six of the comics that are companion to the show, which is really cool that they are looping in these other parts of it.
00:54:33
Speaker
Yeah, that is really, really cool. I still need to check out those comics. I know you if we haven't if we haven't included the link in the in the show description, I'll definitely make sure to do it this time around. So look out for that. We'll send you the link how you can access it either digitally or they're only digital comics, right? They might have some out there, but they were written in like 2012.
00:54:56
Speaker
So I don't know if they're in print anymore. So you would have to find those copies or order them or DC Universe Infinite is their catalog of all things DC Comics. That's like seven bucks a month. That's where a lot of my comics knowledge comes from for anyone out there who's ever wondered like how I read comics.
00:55:13
Speaker
I do it all online, similar to the Source Pages podcast. DC has their own platform with an abundance of comics that I have loved to power through, and that's how you can get the companion comics that are coming soon, I believe. I think it's like July or something, if I remember correctly. Okay. I think that's where I was getting a little...
00:55:33
Speaker
lost in the weeds there as we mentioned the crossover comic coming out in July and that's that's that one is digital only or digital first I think you can start to get them in print like six months later okay okay but any rate the source material talking about source pages it's definitely worth seeking out and you know just continuing the
00:55:54
Speaker
stories of these characters where, you know, where they originally began was on the four color panel there. We're running a little long here and I know we've got some feedback, at least one piece of feedback I definitely want to hit and it's
00:56:09
Speaker
little spoiler here for it, a little tease for it. It's with this wedding, I feel like it was just full of so many characters and cameos and references. We could probably spend the whole episode doing that, but before we really get into all those aspects of the wedding, I did wanna bring up, we talked about the fate of Lorzod, but let's talk about the fate of actuals, or not actuals odd, but generals odd, Druzod.
Future Threats and Storylines
00:56:33
Speaker
So he was banished to the Phantom Zone and we've had this conversation
00:56:38
Speaker
with Aquaman usually leading it about these Kryptonians having already served their sentence, is it right for them to go back to the Phantom Zone? And they come to the decision that they'll allow them to go to this planet Trombus that has the red sun and just keep a watchful eye on them, but allow them to have their own colony there.
00:56:58
Speaker
And we know we don't get to see it on screen, but we get the revelation through Vandal Savage on the Warworld that when they go to try and find those Kryptonians, they're not going to find a one.
00:57:11
Speaker
Yeah, that was crazy. Like knowing that that was the little set up nod that they did like three episodes ago with Teakle sitting in the war war war world throne, that that meant Clarion was helping them collect Kryptonians from the Phantom Zone was just mind blowing. And like this collection of beings that Vandal Savage now has, like the question is, is he going to unleash them on Apocalypse? And that's going to be the war.
00:57:39
Speaker
Like, what is going on here? Because I mean, I was getting some allusions to or not allusions. I was thinking very similarly spoilers if you're not totally caught up with Kenobi before I go on. Jay, Scotty, are you? I am caught up with Kenobi. I'm good. OK. It was the exact same scene we got on Wednesday this week of. Oh, yeah. These just entombed characters from all over the universe being brought in by these evil
00:58:07
Speaker
no good doers. I can't think of the words that I want to use here because it was just so what is going on, what is going on, what is going on in that moment that I couldn't handle it. And to know that the light is just continuing to connive four seasons later. Amazing. And I don't like we wondered what Vandal Savage was doing in the background because he was doing something, obviously. I don't think any of us could have predicted this.
00:58:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think, actually, I'm kind of going back and forth on it now because I was really with you when you were saying that maybe he's collecting all these beings for an incoming war with Darkseid because we know Darkseid, Darkseid, excuse me. I used to do that all the time because I'd never heard the character's name said aloud, so I'd read it. Until the Justice League movie, I had no idea. Yeah, Darkseid. I know that there,
00:59:05
Speaker
Alliance that they had Like struck and up had kind of dissolved, but we still with the revelation that he'd been collecting all these Kryptonians, I guess he willingly gave up Cara Zor-El to Darkseid as like maybe some kind of peace offering some kind of Olive branch. Is that what you took away from it? Actually, yeah, I kind of forgot that that was mentioned that
00:59:35
Speaker
Savage gave her up. Yeah, maybe there is. It could be an olive branch, but everything that Vandal Savage does is an olive branch just so that he can later pull the wool over your eyes and take over. So maybe I really don't know and I love not knowing.
00:59:56
Speaker
But yeah, yeah, we made the I made the allusions to it earlier that they're good at switching the sides of characters and you brought her. I screamed at my laptop when they said or when he said rise cars or L, I was like, this is how we get Supergirl. She's yeah.
01:00:16
Speaker
bad girl in this now and is going to be alongside. I think the name they gave her was was it Mary Black, which was Mary from the beginning of the season that used to be I think she used to be Miss Marvel in comics. And then since they have taken away the Captain Marvel name from Shazam, this is going to be her new title.
01:00:38
Speaker
now that she's separated from Shazam, but like, those two are a force to be reckoned with, then you had the other fury with them, then you have Granny Goodness. Oh my, those are forces to be reckoned with and some of the bad girls of the universe right there. Yeah, and I think that other fury that was with them is one that we, I still think we've seen her before, if I'm not mistaken, that's big Barda.
01:01:05
Speaker
In which case, the setup that we got with Orion being Darkseid's son, and the fact that there was an exchange between him and a new god baby, I believe that new god baby was Scott Free, who is Mr. Miracle. So yeah, I think that's all set up for more and more of the fourth world that we're going to see in future seasons.
01:01:27
Speaker
In terms of it being an olive branch, I could totally see Vandal Savage somehow having the insights that Kara is very likely to switch sides and eventually join our heroes, especially with her cousin.
01:01:45
Speaker
other cousin, I guess, genetically cloned cousin, being on the side of good. But it's a great way to introduce the character, a great way to subvert expectations, and it will be really cool to see her. And it's actually not all that much unlike Injustice because
01:02:06
Speaker
an injustice, spoilers for injustice, but Superman is very much played as like the villain. Brainiac is there alongside him as the overarching villain, but Superman is definitely like the main antagonist and he's gone rogue and become like you see in the Batman versus Superman's apocalypse nightmare sequences. He's become like this dictator because he lost Lois Lane to the Joker. The Joker killed Lois Lane while she was pregnant.
01:02:36
Speaker
with his child. So in that video game, Kara definitely gets pitted against the heroes initially because she wants to be on her cousin's side, but then she eventually switched sides and goes up against him. So I love all the homage to that. And it's one of my favorite storylines.
01:02:55
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And interestingly, she was sent to the Phantom Zone for some reason. We don't know what that is. She could have been benevolent before all of this and them trading off to Darkseid like she could just be plain out evil. And I'm sure we'll do that explanation. And I can't wait to find out why because we know it was a prison. What was her reason for being in said prison?
01:03:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's fair. It's not entirely unheard of to have someone of the House of El not be on the up and up because we talked about him as a background character and he didn't show up in this episode specifically, but there was that one Kryptonian that was clearly a member of the House of El and we learned that his name was Crew El. Right.
01:03:40
Speaker
That feels a little on the nose. Okay. Did you have anything else you want to bring up before we transition to some feedback? No, I think that's it. Okay, cool. And I think this feedback will just garner more of the conversation if we have anything else that we forgot to bring up. Sweet.
01:04:05
Speaker
All right. So shall I start with our one referencing a bit of the wedding? Yeah, let's do that one first. All right. So we have several feedback emails. So buckle up here listeners. And this is a new one from a listener that has not sent us an email before. So thank you for this from we love seeing new stuff in the inbox. I saw a name I didn't recognize. And I was like, Oh, this is gonna be fun.
01:04:31
Speaker
So we have Andrea Lovett, I believe is how all of that is pronounced. If not, feel free to write back to us with a correct pronunciation. As always, we're willing to learn. I'm just going based phonetically here.
01:04:43
Speaker
She said, hello, everyone. I recently found your show at the start of season four, and my boyfriend and I enjoy listening to all of the feedback after the episodes. Doing a great job, and I look forward to hearing more from you, not just limited to Young Justice. I'm writing this email on a high from all of the episodes, so excuse these scattered thoughts.
01:05:02
Speaker
She stayed up until 3am to watch the finale of the show and is feeling the aster. I did not think they'd clean things up and everyone would survive as they did, but I am not disappointed with the path the show took. One thing I noticed and really wanted to speak on was that I am getting the feeling that they are setting up for their own version of Justice League War.
01:05:21
Speaker
However, this is so much more rewarding in the Young Justice universe as there are so many more heroes we are getting. Did you also notice that we had a theme here this season of the team battling their quote unquote phantoms, each arc also dealing with forming a partnership or healing wounds between partners or maybe in Mary's case, creating wounds.
01:05:42
Speaker
Hmm as well as the credit as the credit scene of episode 18 in which we saw the conversation about the Justice League reserves I feel like they will play a huge part in what is to come of the young justice universe Also, we have a pregnant mama's odd creepy car as a fury heartbreaking the planets We just heard of and literally are seeing them in potential danger immediately literally destroying all of our mental health now and
01:06:06
Speaker
I totally agree with that. That's why, you know, we need that Justice League getaway. And this part of the reason we wanted to bring up this email is she goes into a cool note that I did not have the bandwidth or wherewithal to write down of the potential couples from the wedding. We had cyborg and arrow web.
01:06:24
Speaker
Nice. Which I didn't notice. Blue Beetle in 13, which I think may have been previously established. The Foragers, obviously. Adam Strange and Alanna. Oh, nice. I didn't pick up on them. No. Lagan and Rodan.
01:06:41
Speaker
Dinah and Ollie, Bear and Beautiful, and Harper and Violet Swoon. I couldn't agree more. That was a lovely nod to see them coming in with holding hands. It was so nice. Nice of Batman to show up and notice that Tim and Cassie are on opposite sides. Interesting. Also sweet that Danny Chase was able to attend.
01:07:05
Speaker
Yeah. And, oh, apparently Tim was with spoiler. She sent a follow up email that was a correction about that. So Tim Drake and spoiler possibly together. That is interesting. But I did know the fact that Batman was in full cowl at the wedding. Like that's the most Batman thing possible to do. I didn't see Barbara though there. Did you?
01:07:32
Speaker
I did not. I watched the episode twice. We had that question I think earlier on in the season as to whether or not Barb and Dick Grayson were still together. Right. And if she wasn't there and him in the wedding, I would be a little surprised actually.
01:07:51
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, that's a fair point. But thank you so much for that email Andrea. That was awesome. Great insights on literally all of these things. And yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more that we got so much information that
01:08:09
Speaker
they did a good job of not making this feel like setup. But as she's talking about all of these things that were set up that we've talked about, they just hit it in good writing. It didn't feel like just a setup episode. It felt like a proper finale. Yeah, it did.
01:08:27
Speaker
And I'd be curious to see, I know I've seen Justice League war on HBO Max, so I know it's available, so I should probably do my due diligence and check it out. But I don't want to misquote Zuhar, but I think that's one that he's touted as one of his favorites. So with that being said, it encourages me to see it even more so.
01:08:48
Speaker
Yeah, Justice League War is part of the overarching 12 movie epic that they did in the animated universe. I think it's actually one of the kickoff films after Flashpoint. Okay, I've seen Flashpoint Paradox, so that would make sense. But the other thing she brought up that I thought was really insightful and well put is it was something that I kind of had in the back of my mind whenever we have these
01:09:15
Speaker
you know, seasons with their little subtitle, like be it invasion, be it outsiders, be it phantoms. It's always a double entendre. It means more than one thing. And while I had certainly picked up on it with some characters, I think she's, Andrea's exactly right. Like basically every character that served as our main character at one point in time was dealing with a phantom in some way or another. And one of the ones that actually came to mind for me was
01:09:43
Speaker
a little bit more so having heard her input there was Aquaman called her on because as much as he was dealing with needing to take a break, he really was, part of his through line was grieving Wally as well as, was it Tila? Tula? Tula. Tula. Yes. And Connor in that moment as well. And Connor as well, yeah, of course, yeah, yeah.
01:10:11
Speaker
So yeah, really great stuff. Yeah, honestly, for writing in. Yeah. I was so hung up on the Phantom zone being like the meaning behind phantoms that I didn't even really see that. So I agree. It was, it was an amazing thing that we didn't quite pick up on or mention. So thank you for that. Any other thoughts on Andrea or shall I go to the next email?
01:10:36
Speaker
No, just thanks again for writing in, Andrea. Really appreciate your thoughts. Hopefully you'll continue to tune in and send us more feedback. All right. So while we're on the topic of new listeners, we had another slightly new listener. We know this person's been a fan of the show. They're fairly active in the Stranded Panda group chat. John Irons, host of Captain Game Show, also wrote us in an email. Cool.
01:11:06
Speaker
Hey guys, love the show as always. I had these thoughts well written on a piece of paper, but I can't find it. So here it goes. I wanted to get this to you before the season finale drops. So this was possibly sent before about four hours ago now. So before we got this podcast out.
01:11:23
Speaker
So number one, yep, I noticed the same thing with the toy cars I was expecting at the very end for Amistad's hand to come out of frame and arrange the cars like he does, giving us some hope that things will be set right before it's over, but no hope for us. Interesting, Kyle, last episode. Number two, I was shocked when Rocket wasn't there on the bus. Loud audible gasp. I don't think she's dead, though, especially since they left it so open, saying no one knows what happens inside when a boom tomb closes.
01:11:50
Speaker
And she was inside her force field, inside a wormhole, tethered between dimensions, walking backwards through a magical portal. They could drop her literally anywhere in the universe, if not time, and say, she's here now. Interesting.
01:12:06
Speaker
Number three, the Robin, I believe it's Nightwing, sir, the Robin callback with Lord of the Rings, you shall not pass line was two fold. It reminds us he's just kind of a nerd, but it also referenced a common Dick Grayson thing. He hacked the cameras slash I hacked the cameras, he hacked the controls slash I hacked the controls. He did the thing I did the thing. He's always wanted to say that I've always wanted to say that a nice cross of you know, saying
01:12:34
Speaker
the things back that I completely forgot that you know, it's always people going back and forth with him giving him some of that credit. Nice. Yeah, I completely went over my head. Definitely a good call out there, john. Yeah. And number four. Finally, he's not dead. The show already established this in the Princess and the Tiger episode that people who are well trained
01:12:55
Speaker
Like the League of Shadows can slow their breathing and heartbeat. It is completely reasonable that Dick Grayson, lifelong student of Batman, has had similar training. He would know this is the only chance of surviving and would make it so that they could boom tube away. And hope his friends arrive soon just before he dies permanently. Bioship may be dead, but Nightwing isn't.
01:13:17
Speaker
Oh, so he got that a little bit wrong. Bioship might be the classic person on the force that everyone likes and has to get killed when they're ready to retire, but he really hopes not. And Connor's not gonna kill Superman, obviously. He may just be torn, but Zod has been broadcasting all of this worldwide, and there's no way the rest of the Justice League isn't gonna get there. There is Zeta Tube away. So apologies that we did not read this at the top. I did not have a chance to read this before the show. We probably should have done it then.
01:13:46
Speaker
Because that just lumps in with what TJ said of these two need to get on the stock market and tell us what's going to happen there. Because the fact that he could see the foreshadowing of the League of Shadows slowing their breath and that going over all of our heads. Yeah, young justice plant seeds. It's it's amazing.
01:14:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, hopefully we didn't do too much of a disservice by saving it for the end. But it's kind of nice to have those two bookends there with TJ getting everything right and John getting everything right while we're just kind of sitting here in between twiddling our thumbs. But I guess but it shows how unqualified we actually are for this sometimes that we need you guys to help us do this. But
01:14:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's what makes the show is the conversation and the deliberation not between just us hosts, but you the listeners as well. So thank you for writing in. With John, I will say, check out Captain Game Show. It's a podcast on the Infinite Potato Alliance. It's a really creative and clever and witty show if you're a fan of any kind of game shows or wordplay.
01:14:49
Speaker
or improv and stuff like that. It's definitely worth checking out. He does a great job and puts a lot of work into the show. I had the pleasure of appearing once upon a time with a couple of other pandas, Matthew Carroll of the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast, as well as Haley Hobbs from Source Pages.
01:15:05
Speaker
a lot of fun. But I got to throw this joke in there. He brought up Bioship and his expectations for Bioship dying being the one that wanted to retire and whatnot. And I just immediately thought of Murtog from Lethal Weapon, just, I'm too old for this ship.
01:15:24
Speaker
Sorry. Oh, beautiful. Beautiful. Well, thank you again for setting us up for that lovely joke. And to truly bookend the episode, we have one more email. He got us at the top. We'll get him again at the end. TJ Stafford, as always.
01:15:45
Speaker
TJ, I definitely had to write in for the finale. First of all, I totally called the psychic illusion. I got very excited when McGann let the illusion drop. I was so happy when Nightwing was okay, but I thought the slowing of his heart was a little bit of a cop-out. But I was willing to get past that and move to the final battle. I enjoyed the Elle vs. Zod tag team and Ursa Zod ripping out McGann's heart, scared for about a second, then I assumed she would be fine, which she was.
01:16:12
Speaker
Man, Metron can hold a grudge. Which you said yourself, Jscotty. That was a very elaborate... That was a very elaborate plan just to murder a guy that was kind of mean to him once. I'm a little disappointed. Lord Zod is gone, so we can't get much of him. Although his mother is currently pregnant with him, so maybe we haven't seen the last of him. As for Zod, senior, I'm curious what Vandal Savage has planned for this menagerie of supervillains that he's collecting.
01:16:40
Speaker
I predicted months ago that Mary was going to become a female Fury and you guys predicted Supergirl being a factor in the next season. So yay, we were all right. This isn't the first time in animation that Darkseid has corrupted Supergirl. So I'm interested to see what is different this time. I would like to know what that other iteration is because I don't think I'm familiar.
01:17:00
Speaker
Yeah, you gotta let us know, TJ. Yeah. My final thought is on death in this universe. As much as I love these characters, the number of death fakeouts this season was a bit much. I maintain that if they were going to bring Connor back, that conversation with little Jonathan shouldn't have happened.
01:17:15
Speaker
Between that and everything that happened with Nightwing and Rocket these last two episodes, it just feels like someone should not have made it back. Wally's death in season two was a real gut punch that came out of nowhere and really made us think no one was safe. I feel like some of the choices in this season invalidated this notion when everyone made it home okay. Make death matter, people. That's all I'm saying.
01:17:37
Speaker
Sorry for the long email and thanks for giving me a platform to shout my opinions from. Can't wait to see where things go from here, TJ Stafford. We're happy to give you this platform because it's also our platform to shout things from. Thank you as always for writing in, TJ. It's a pleasure. Yep. And just once again, kudos for getting as much of that right as you did. Very, very impressive.
01:18:01
Speaker
You know, I don't entirely disagree with a lot of what you said. I'm kind of of two minds. It's like what Andrew brought up at the beginning of the episode. It's, yeah, the writers are kind of like taking us on this emotional roller coaster ride in terms of like fake out deaths and whatnot. I still maintain that getting that death from Wally in season two, as much as of a gut punch as it was, it's like had this permanence that always keeps us on the edge of our seat. Maybe it's diminishing returns towards the end, but you know,
01:18:31
Speaker
while you do acknowledge the fact that Lorsod does still exist as a baby at this point in time, there's no denying that death wasn't lasting. So you give a little, you take a little, that's the way it goes.
Character Deaths in Justice League: Cop-outs or Foreshadowing?
01:18:48
Speaker
Yeah, and this goes back into the conversation we had around Dr. Strange too.
01:18:52
Speaker
Everyone's got their opinions. And I totally agree. You know, we talked at length at the top of death mattering and, you know, the Dick Grayson, whether that was a cop out or foreshadowed. I agree with his opinions and I think they are valid that it is dependent person to person. And yet it is getting that weird point of how do we make death matter? But I always look back at the episode in season one.
01:19:18
Speaker
where they faked the entire Justice League's death and then half of the team because McGahn was controlling their training inside the psychic realm like that was a beautiful thing it didn't make death matter any less it just felt like holy crap this is what it would be like if the Justice League fell so they're doing that very carefully and I think they're also on that bridge of
01:19:43
Speaker
I know season three wasn't quite as well reviewed as the other seasons because you didn't have as much of the main team. It's a little hard to then kill off more of the main team and still have the show have that core of energy without all of them still there because I felt like it would have been a real cop out to get rid of Rocket because unfortunately we cared about her the least. If they got rid of her to be like, oh, quote unquote death matters,
01:20:12
Speaker
I don't think we would have been sitting here upset in this finale, it would have been man, I wanted to see more of her. Whereas if they let Dick Grayson die, I may have quit the show entirely because I'm an emotional mess. So yeah, it's that back and forth that they really have to play with. And like,
01:20:30
Speaker
They have expanded the cast of characters, but they haven't endeared us to enough of them to say, oh, Dick Grayson died. Here's Tim Drake or Damian Wayne or Jason Todd. They kind of need to keep some of these characters around to keep things moving forward. They're getting there with Halo and other things, but I think that's part of what they're doing. And I trust these writers more than I trust the writers of almost any show. So.
01:20:59
Speaker
I'm down with whatever they're going to throw at us. Yeah, I agree with all that. And also the fact that Jesse McCartney needs some kind of paycheck because I don't know what else he's doing outside of voicing Dick Grayson, but I don't think his musical career has gone as far as you wanted it to go. If he produced an album as Dick Grayson, you might have something going there. All right.
Listener Feedback and Social Media Engagement
01:21:24
Speaker
So if that's all our feedback, it feels like, you know, we've
01:21:28
Speaker
come to the end here, but I do encourage you if there was something in this finale or this season as a whole, or if you've begin your rewatch of Young Justice and have been listening to our coverage all along the way and you've got some feedback. Again, if we get enough feedback, we can do a
01:21:43
Speaker
Young Justice specific feedback episodes. So I encourage you. You can find us on all forms of social media. I will allow Andrew to plug those specifically. But for feedback like this, just write into us at animationdeliberationpodcastatgmail.com.
01:22:00
Speaker
And like you said, you can follow us on all of the socials, Animation Deliberation on Instagram, that is where majority of our content is, Twitter, Animation Delib1, as well as Facebook, Animation Deliberation Facebook page. We have all of that, that's where I put the information. And it's a good time to start following all of those, because we have a couple weeks where we're kind of in limbo.
01:22:22
Speaker
going forward. So we'll be tweeting out some things or setting up schedules, as is the need. The main thing we can tell you is Lightyear is coming soon. So that's going to be our biggest focus. And then the next series that we're probably looking at that's going to be ongoing is Baymax possibly, depending on whether they release it all at once or over weeks, they haven't totally announced that yet.
01:22:46
Speaker
So that'll be coming, but that's the end of June. So we kind of have this middle period where we're going to be focusing on some more possibly random things, things that we've talked about we want to cover. Or if you guys write in and say, Hey, what about this, we may do that. I started spy X family that zoo hair would kill me if I didn't bring up because it is as good as he is talking about. It's so funny and fun.
01:23:08
Speaker
So there's plenty of things out there that we haven't gotten to yet that are maybe coming down the pipeline. Best way to keep up with what you need to watch is to follow us on those socials. And also I have as much fun out there as I possibly can. I promise it's not just serious stuff. I was putting memes on our story the past like two or three days and getting texts from Zuhair and Jay Scottie and likes being like, what is this? What are we doing here? So
01:23:32
Speaker
It's also just a fun platform. We're not here to be serious. We take it all seriously, but not too seriously as we like to say. So socials are out there. And Jay Scottie, what do you have going on that's upcoming that may be exciting and extraordinary and maybe gigantic in scale?
Upcoming Content and Exciting Series
01:23:54
Speaker
and thrilling and drastic in nature. Yeah, as I've mentioned on the last few episodes, on Benjis Assemble, the podcast where we rewatch movies so you don't have to on the Stranded Panda Network, we have been covering the Jurassic Park franchise films. So at the time of this recording, a lot of people are catching the Thursday night preview for Jurassic World Dominion right now.
01:24:17
Speaker
I will have to hold off a couple of days to see it, but very early next week, we will continue our coverage of that. So go back and relive all the thrills with us, yeah, wherever you get your podcasts. And then I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the fact that Zuhair, while he's not with us at the time of this recording, he has been appearing and will continue to appear on the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast as they cover Ms. Marvel. And I just got to say,
01:24:44
Speaker
I was excited for the series, but the trailer didn't exactly overwhelm me. I was so pleasantly surprised with the first episode of Ms. Marvel. I absolutely adored it. So definitely give some love and support over there and check out what Zuhair's doing over there. Anything else you want to let the people know about? No. No, I think it's all a mystery from here. I'm super excited for it.
01:25:07
Speaker
Very good. Well, thanks for being here. Thanks for feeling the aster with us. And thanks for tuning in. That's T-O-O-N-I-N. And stay whelmed. And until we meet again on the next season of Young Justice, muscle, muscle.
01:25:24
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the Animation Deliberation Podcast, a proud member of the Strandepanda Network. If you would like to contact us, you can email animationdeliberationpodcast at gmail.com or follow us on Twitter at animationdelib1. For this and other great shows, you can visit Strandepanda.com or join the great community that is the Strandepanda Chat Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash spchat. Tune in next time and remember, stay well.
01:25:52
Speaker
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01:27:26
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