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Episode 138: Michelle and Ryan are Back!!
129 Plays3 years ago
Hello, Podwalkers, and welcome back to the Goblin Lore Podcast! Back in Episode 109 and Episode 110 Alex and Hobbes were lucky enough to be able to discuss the Killian Lu story with Michelle and Ryan (fist time guest!). A lot of what was discussed then drew heavily from this video by Eugene Yang on Anti-Asian Hate and addressed concerns about the way the story had been told. At the end of those episodes Ryan had mentioned the rumors about the Return to Kamigawa.
Since then there had been apprehension. What would Kamigawa bring? How would it handle Asian Representation in a Cyberpunk World set in a futuristic Kamigawa. So we again reached out to Michelle and Ryan, and while we did this world building video dropped (please go watch if you haven't yet). This episode again encompasses such a broad and important topic that it will be split again into two parts (there's also some discussion we need to have about the Phyrexians)!
We also are proud to have partnered with Grinding Coffee Co a black, LGBT+ affiliated and owned, coffee business that is aimed at providing coffee to gamers. You can read more about their mission here. You can use our partner code for discounted coffee!
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As promised, we plan to keep these Mental Health Links available moving forward too. For general Mental Health the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) has great resources for people struggling with mental health concerns as well as their families. We also want to draw attention to this article on stigma from NAMI's site.
If you’re thinking about suicide or just need someone to talk to right now, you can get support from any of the resources below.
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-TALK (8255)
- Veteran's can Press 1 at anytime to be taken to the Veteran's Line
- Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741-741
- International suicide hotlines: A comprehensive resource list for people outside the US.
- IMAlive: Click Chat Now to access a live online network of volunteers through instant messaging.
- TrevorLifeline, TrevorChat, and TrevorText (LGBTQ+ crisis support): 1-866-488-7386, or text “Trevor” to 1-202-304-1200
- Trans Lifeline (US): (877) 565-8860
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You can find the hosts on Twitter: Hobbes Q. at @HobbesQ, and Alex Newman at @Mel_Chronicler. Send questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to @GoblinLorePod on Twitter or GoblinLorePodcast@gmail.com.
Opening and closing music by Wintergatan (
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Transcript
Introductions and Sponsor Shoutout
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello Podwalkers, and welcome to another episode of the Goblin Lore Podcast. This is HobbsQ. I can be found on Twitter at HobbsQ. My pronouns are he-him, and I am here with my co-host, Alex. Hi, I'm Alex Neman, found on Twitter at mil underscore chronicler, and my pronouns are also he-him.
00:00:49
Speaker
and kind of found on Twitter, as we were discussing earlier. Maybe, probably not for a while. Not currently, because there's been a lot going on. But today, we are rejoined. Well, before we get to that, I just want to say thank you to Griny Coffee Company. Always one who at the beginning of the show thanked them. I just got in a new bag of the gay agenda, probably one of my favorite names for a coffee in the last year. Just such a good company, very supportive of us.
00:01:19
Speaker
minority-owned LGBTQ ran coffee company. So that really supports gamers.
Welcoming Michelle and Ryan Back
00:01:25
Speaker
Anyway, for our show today, we are actually joined by two returning guests. And I will say the last time they were here was probably one of the most downloaded episodes. Actually, I think it is. The first part of it is the second most downloaded after our first ever episode. And that is Michelle and Ryan. So Michelle, do you want to introduce yourself? This actually, I think, puts you
00:01:53
Speaker
at the second most times on the show behind Chase as a guest. It does, like it does. So welcome
Michelle's Interests and Move to Boston
00:02:01
Speaker
back. It just means I gotta just say let me talk to Jason Statham. Hello. Hello, sir. I've got new target. Yeah, I know she's my friend, but like still anyway.
00:02:14
Speaker
Hi, I am Michelle Rapp, also known as that weird person who keeps yelling on Twitter about inane things like Magic the Gathering, Dudges and Dragons, other TTRPGs, her cats, and there's a lot of baking. I love making and eating carbs. It is a lifestyle choice and I do not regret any of it. And my pronouns are they, she.
00:02:40
Speaker
And you also, since being with us last have now been, you're back in Boston. So you have a lot more time to like bake because you're like snowed in basically. I bake bread every single week. It's great. I make a tray of focaccia and I usually try to make a tray of a batch of cookies, I think is a better word. And I have,
00:03:05
Speaker
Does batch make it seem like you're eating less? I'm just trying to think of the correct collective noun for this item, yes. So I am doing that and what can I say? I love to bribe people with carbs.
00:03:26
Speaker
I bribe my ride to improv every week with carbs. I bribe my neighbors with carbs. I bribe my husband with carbs. It's actually just a very effective manipulative tool, honestly.
00:03:44
Speaker
main purpose behind it too. It's just all manipulation. Oh, no, it's great. I mean, this is why, look, when I was a small little girl, I was in Girl Scouts and I noticed something. People don't say no to cookies. So. Accurate. And Ryan, welcome back to you too.
00:04:05
Speaker
Oh, hey, yeah, good to be here.
Ryan's Diverse Hobbies
00:04:07
Speaker
Hi. My name is Ryan. I post on Twitter as BarbariansRid1. It was supposed to be BarbariansRiddle, but you know, Twitter shortens names and all that. Let's see, my pronouns are he-him. And I'm kind of like a Mr. Toad of people where I am constantly switching hobbies. It's a really unfortunate thing. Magic the Gathering has been one of my big consistent ones. So you probably see me online just
00:04:31
Speaker
posting, like making little memes, but I'd say the general vibe of my page is disappointment. Not to be a downer, just I mean, if you were to, there's still a large chunk of them. It's usually like, man, I'm not mad, but dang. I'm not that I'm just disappointed. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you do, right? You do have very strong dad energy in that regard.
00:04:58
Speaker
wasn't one of those said like, listen, no, I get it. I'm not laughing, but I get it. You're not wrong. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, other than that, I'm just a big fan of the game. And, you know, as an Asian American who was adopted and raised in the Midwest, I feel like I have maybe a relatively unique perspective.
00:05:21
Speaker
Um, it's weird because, uh, since the last time of the cast, I feel like, and maybe this is just manifesting itself in the different hobbies I've done. I'm just trying to fill, I may be misusing this term, trying to like fill a weird void in the whole diaspora. Did I pronounce that right? I'm not sure.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I listened to the pronunciation enough to say it right. So I've just been I feel like every like side hobby I've done has been a weird void. Like I took up a bit of sewing and I was like looking up kimono and handbok patterns. Or there was a very brief time where I was collecting like vinyl pops. So specifically getting stuff from the pop Asia line, you know, things like that. It's just weird. And I'm actually currently reading During to the West, which I am not Chinese. But it's one of those things where it's like, there's this weird
00:06:06
Speaker
I mean, this is kind of why representation is so important, right? Not to segue into the main topic or anything. There are people like me who are out there like, you know what, like I was raised around like, you know, Culver's and like Hardee's and stuff. So I don't have like that, that experience, you know, the experience or understanding. I feel like there's like a piece missing, you know? Yeah, I hear you. I mean, like I, I, first of all,
00:06:33
Speaker
love Journey to the West.
Michelle on Lego and Cultural Themes
00:06:35
Speaker
I also read it. I'm Vietnamese. So like, I mean, I guess like, I don't know, we've been colonized by China by like so many times, I guess it's kind of a thing. I can probably bullshit that into my heart somehow. But if you're interested, check out, okay, so I'm a bit of a Lego head now, because Legos are great.
00:06:55
Speaker
But two, Lego has a whole series of like, journey to the west, like meccas and stuff like that with like, Senua Kong, and like, Lady Iron Fan, and like, there's just a bunch of good shit. Like, I'm really, really happy about that stuff. So I know that it's meant to be like, oh, it's only appealing to like the Chinese market. But you know,
00:07:16
Speaker
There's some people here who like it too. Oh, and they even have a Changa mooncake factory with like a little rabbit mecca. It is so cute. And they have tiny, tiny, tiny little like flat one by one rounds. Oh my god. Mooncakes. They take little mooncakes. You can put them in a box.
00:07:35
Speaker
I love everything about this. We because I know Michelle you and I were talking earlier the over near Christmas time about the the like the flower line because the sunflowers are coming out this year and I will say the sunflowers putting the ones together that we even have so far was such a mindfulness exercise. Like there was something just very satisfied about putting those ones together. And then we have them in a vase like saying right now I just want more to come out to add more to it.
00:08:04
Speaker
Oh, well, the sunflowers are out. So you totally get sunflowers. I'm going to do that. I'm actually going to be doing a stream probably tomorrow where I'm going to be assembling some Legos. And I got the everyone is awesome one that's like the LGBTQIA pride. Yeah. So I'm going to be building that tomorrow. That's awesome. Tomorrow being a relative time period is relative at some point in the evening is basically like, Hey, well, and I was thinking like, if you're listening to this, it will probably have already have happened.
00:08:34
Speaker
Oh, true. But I'll I mean, I've got a bunch of Lego sets I'm gonna make. So like, come, come hang out. Gonna build some Legos. Gonna bust some bricks. Yeah. You brought that twitch link. We didn't know where it is. I guess it's just like twitch.tv slash kiln fiend potter anyway. Okay, that works. But like, but like, yeah, yeah, Ryan, like get it get in there. Because there's some good, like awesome Lego journey to the west stuff.
00:08:59
Speaker
I'll check it out. I was actually just, you probably heard me typing. I was like, okay, mech journey to the West. I'm like, yeah, the Sun Wukong build looks really dope. Yeah, looks like they don't have one for Pixie, which is a shame, but I really just want that for the rake. Because like, that's such an iconic. Yeah, it's good. But they do, but they do have other builds for Pixie too, which is really great.
00:09:18
Speaker
Okay, cool. I'll just say right you were talking about you're like some since you were here last some of these other things that you know, I was thinking of your your pop thing was kind of one of the first things that I was thinking of with the specifically kind of the Asian line and I'd seen you post some of the Like the the ones that you had found from that and so yeah You know, so yeah, you guys are you guys are back or you all are back and that's one of those words I still Usually I get y'all down really well. I don't not know why I did not tonight, but it's all good
00:09:48
Speaker
You two are back, and I made reference to the last time you were here, but we didn't talk yet, just kind of a reference to what that was.
Previous Episode and Representation Discussion
00:09:57
Speaker
Michelle and Ryan were last year with us back in Strixhaven, and they were here to talk about Killian Liu.
00:10:06
Speaker
And so if you want, we're going to link – it's a two-parter where we kind of covered the story of Killian Liu along with kind of this idea of – it was really for Asian-American representation and kind of some great videos there just kind of about having that discussion about, you know,
00:10:24
Speaker
the presentation in media, especially of the Asian American, especially this idea of the model minority. Um, so we're not going to rehash kind of a bunch of what was there, but I do encourage you to go back and listen to it. Cause like I said, it really is the part one is the second most downloaded episode we've had, because I think people have recognized that this is an important topic. Um, at the end of that episode,
00:10:48
Speaker
We had rumors of Neon Dynasty, and we talked a little bit about concerns. I think – I would say concerns. That would be the word. You know, Ryan, you really brought kind of that up with this set and kind of a return to Kamagawa, a place that people –
00:11:09
Speaker
had wanted to return to ever since the first time we were there. Well, sorry, I take that back. After a period of time, because it was not a well-received set when it sets when they first came out, because Wizards tried to do a lot in them. And not just to do with representation at all, more to do with the legendary themes and just... Just some mechanical foibles and things that didn't work as well.
00:11:35
Speaker
But we were talking about, you know, like over the years, there's been an interest in returning. And Ryan, you kind of mentioned some concerns with the rumors that we had had so far.
Concerns and Consultations for Kamigawa Set
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah, so Wizards will occasionally do these kind of like these surveys to get a grip of like what does the consumer want as most businesses do. The ones that they released had a chunk of things of character designs and ideas that were clearly meant to be in reference to a new Kamigawa set. And the thing that had me concerned is there was a special ops agent who we are later now seeing as going to be Kato, but the other ones were all kind of
00:12:11
Speaker
filling these weird roles of being either like a sneaky crime lord or a another like again another sneaky gangster type but they're all described as being infiltrators charming you know kind of playing into this weird role that
00:12:28
Speaker
I mean, more or less that all these characters from Kamigabu who were meant to be these face characters were all sneaky or not unlike ninjas. So there was kind of this weird concern that whoever originally brought up these initial concepts
00:12:42
Speaker
that's how they viewed what, either how they viewed the important parts of Kamigabu, it was like this world full of like secret intrigue and subterfuge rather than like a group of people who are just existing in this plane. So that had me worried and concerned. We'll get into the other part later, but I feel like obviously they got someone to take a second look at these designs, names, and I can see echoes of these characters within the story.
00:13:09
Speaker
The crime ward actually seems like the Umezawa character they eventually became, but it's very different than what they originally had planned for the face characters. And to elaborate, one of the reasons why I was also concerned about the ongoing depiction of
00:13:28
Speaker
Asian characters being portrayed as sneaky, sneaky people is because of the old Fu Manchu archetype of old school media, which portrays Asian people as being devious and underhanded. You can't trust them in their slanty eyes.
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah, with the long fingernails. Yeah, seriously.
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah, it was really unfortunate. What I will say though is that, and this is a shout out to Mark Zugg, the artist of that, is he was willing to have that full conversation and realize- He was. See, the thing is, those are really difficult conversations to have. In his position, he could have just ignored it, but rather he went in, explained like, well, this is actually what I meant to be. I can see why I would be construed that way, but this is what I intended.
00:14:31
Speaker
like he acknowledged why we saw it the way it did and what stereotypes it played into. But when he put up the sources and things, it was actually a really good learning moment for everyone to understand like, Hey, maybe we need to be a little more conscientious when we're doing this. And maybe that's the reason why, again, cultural consultants and stuff like that, you know, just giving it a once over at least, to maybe go like, Hey, can you alter this slightly? Maybe yeah, adjust his features.
00:14:54
Speaker
Yeah, and not only having I mean, it's not only to enough to have people on the payroll, you need to listen to them as well. So it's it's great that that is happening. So, yeah, this is coming up. So this is coming on the heels of our episode with Amanda, you know, even just kind of going with that idea of like, why would a podcast need a consultant, right? And we were kind of we're having this discussion that this idea that having
00:15:20
Speaker
somebody to talk to you and just about what you're standing for what your media is presenting or what your viewpoint is that you are showing is like invaluable and I think that you know, we're coming off of having Amanda on here and then we kind of rolled into Kamagawa which I think we didn't know what we were going to get and that's that was where my concern was is the closer and closer we got to this was what is going to happen and I think
00:15:49
Speaker
The initial kind of previews that came out had me still a little concerned.
00:15:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a fair comment, precisely because when we are looking, of course, the first thing that we're going to think of when we think of Kamigawa is like OG Kamigawa, which was in many respects, actually, Asians Represent, which is another podcast that I work with, we did a whole episode on how they miserably failed on trying to world-build respectfully in this way.
00:16:22
Speaker
And so when we look at these, we can't help but make that comparison, right? And so what were you looking at precisely that kind of brought those red flags at the time? So, Ryan, you were talking a little bit more than I was. For me, I think it was just kind of noticing as we were coming into it. I think it was just… Everything was ninjas. Like, I mean, it was literally Sathura Umezawa.
00:16:50
Speaker
who, I mean, that felt like, I mean, from a design standpoint, I get why they're referencing an exceedingly popular character that represented from the plane. But it, I mean, it was very blatantly a name drop, even within the story, a name drop to have a name drop. But they kind of led forward with like, both Kato, who was the face one, the face walkers, as well as Toru Umezawa, and it was all just ninjas, ninjas, ninjas, ninjas, ninjas, ninjas. And that is we kind of believe, you know,
00:17:16
Speaker
There had been some missteps I would say on comments made about like, well, that's what people want when we return there.
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, there was definitely a comment made by, um, I think it was Star
Improved Representation in Kamigawa
00:17:28
Speaker
City. I can't quite recall, but it was definitely something I called them out for as well, where it's like, you know, we, why do you want to go to correct to Kamigawa? You want it for the ninjas, the samurai for the Bushido ninjutsu. And it's just the most. Pardon, but like we've tested response. It's like incredibly reductivist. And it was definitely something that struck a lot of like struck miners essentially. And it was like,
00:17:53
Speaker
So that's kind of just taking an entire civilization and producing it to ninjas, which is never very respectful. Yeah, no, not at all. And the thing that was like things definitely, I was definitely on the same page as y'all and I was so worried until I think we got to the world building panel that Wizards did.
00:18:19
Speaker
I think it's so what they've done for this set is something that I've never seen before. They have put world building front and center for a lot of really smart reasons. I think first they decided to make this in the future and so they've got to explain a lot of things.
00:18:37
Speaker
like, this is why these things look the way and like, this is why we have technology, et cetera. But in a way, I also think that, and this is my hope, because from what I know from some of the people I know who did consulting behind the scenes, they had like 12 people basically chiming in and whatnot. I think they finally took the lessons of the past sets we've seen to heart and actually decided to really seek a lot of
00:19:08
Speaker
Um, actual Japanese and Japanese and Asian folks like on this set, like making sure that they got it right. There had been, I guess this was also before we knew a ton about the set was we knew that it was also going to be cyberpunk. Um, and I think that that is a word, a little more of my concerns had been too. I'm like going back now and thinking of the timeline. And I remember, you know, the belief of kind of what.
00:19:35
Speaker
cyberpunk, you know, and people were quick to jump and be like, well, Akira, but ignoring then, kind of the West, take the West use or the West versions of cyberpunk, where it is Asian cultures that are like almost like the dominant culture at that point. We're here to replace you. Yeah, as in like, we're invading. Yeah.
00:19:56
Speaker
were invading with her. In case anyone's not familiar, Cyberpunk has a lot of its roots in late 70s, early 80s socioeconomic culture where we saw a really big boom in Japan, Japan's economic dominance. And technology.
00:20:18
Speaker
So that's where we get Blade Runner, for example, as well as a bunch of other stuff. So it is definitely, for better or for worse, been a giant lodestone in pop culture since then.
00:20:34
Speaker
But as you said the video the world building video and I mean that was one of the main things as we You know is Alex and I talked behind the scenes about having you two both come back on The world building video in particular really shifted kind of almost what we were I mean, we didn't know what we were gonna be talking about We just knew that we wanted to have you two back on given that you had been here with us previously when we kind of addressed at least kind of the Asian American experience and as you said
00:21:00
Speaker
diaspora we want to once again as we said on that last episode nothing that we're talking about is specifically to a monolith or treating this as if one experience is the only experience
00:21:11
Speaker
But that world building video really made a difference when it, when it hit. Um, I think for the reason you said, Michelle, that like, it was almost like they came out of the gates being like, we want to show you flat out that like, we did our research. Yes. Yeah. And for the first time, they were actually extremely transparent about the world building process. That's not something that Wizards has really done before.
00:21:36
Speaker
And they came out early, like well before previews were coming. I mean, there were a few previews because that's just how magic works these days, this never ending preview season. But we had just a handful of cards and so they're like, now we want to, before we start revealing the actual product, which is the marketing thing, we're going to actually come out and tell you about our approach and try to show you that we actually did the work.
00:22:00
Speaker
It's great. And I love that they did that, especially because the previews and things are cool. And they're a lot of fun. But they're also marketing their business. That's part of a thing, a capitalist company doing marketing stuff. And so it's nice that even before they really kicked off the marketing part of it, they're like, we want to show you what we've done and give you a good idea of what we're looking at.
00:22:24
Speaker
Yeah, it provided a very necessary perspective and context for all of the content that was going to come thereafter. I really hope that this is something they do from now on because so many times
00:22:40
Speaker
especially because they also released a story like ahead of everything, mostly, most of the spoilers.
Cultural Consultants and Authenticity
00:22:48
Speaker
I really hope that they continue to do this because it gives, I think, everyone a better idea of what to expect and how to understand what they're trying to go for.
00:23:00
Speaker
separate. I'm like, in this case, it's really good for the representation angle. But even separate from that, in other places where that's less of a concern, it still would be really cool to see this stuff. It's just cool to see what they had in general. It's always nice to get that peek behind the curtain and they show us the process and here's the things we were thinking about and all the concept art. And so yeah, I agree with you. Like, it would be great if this is a pattern that they just
00:23:25
Speaker
Look, this is just a thing they did for sets. I would love that. Even from like a cold, heartless marking perspective, like it's actually really genius because it gets you amped up in the lead up to preview season and it gets you more entrenched and more invested. I'd say like the only complaint I'd have is they probably should have moved the story release schedule ahead one day because I saw a lot of people complaining that like, oh, I didn't find out the thing about Tamio until the preview stream with Matthew Lure and now it's ruined and why should I read the story, you know, that kind of thing.
00:23:52
Speaker
But other than that, I saw everyone literally every day the story came out. People were on there posting about it nonstop. It's the most engagement I've seen for like a magic story in a long time, probably since I want to say Dominaria.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah, I would certainly say that. I mean, probably since maybe Ixalan, which was a golden era. Oh, it's beautiful. So talking about the panel in particular, one thing I also think they did right was they allowed their cultural consultant, James Mendez-Hoades, to take the lead in talking about and examining
00:24:29
Speaker
what they did for the set in terms of representation, the concerns they had, and what they did in order to address those concerns. The way they followed his lead, the way they allowed him to express his ideas openly and honestly, I felt was really refreshing. And a lot of the things he talked about were things I was very concerned about.
00:24:51
Speaker
For example, the Kami representation. Anyone who has studied Japanese culture would probably know about Shinto and Shintoism. And Shintoism is where the concept of Kami comes from.
00:25:06
Speaker
the calm air spirits that inhabit basically almost everything we like in very sacred, very special things in our lives, whether that be like a really nice rock or a temple or a really precious doll that's been passed down or something like that.
00:25:22
Speaker
So, previous Kamigawa was like, oh, they are separate planes and now we have them back on the same level of existence as they really ought to always have been, right? So, pointing out things like that, pointing out things like, you know, we got too many katanas up in this place.
00:25:40
Speaker
that I thought was really refreshing. I love the the discussion on weapons and and like even the bringing in of the concerns to do with like using Okinawan weapons right like I think the like the size and the nunchucks were the two examples that they really gave because we know that this you know that was one things we got last time from Kamagawa was was weapons but it it was mainly swords and Ajite but um
00:26:07
Speaker
he very much clearly stated from the outset, like, we're not gonna, like, I, we had a discussion about Okinawan weapons because of, you know, the fact that there had been imperialism, and, you know, to bring that into a mainland story is a very different, like, feel, and, like, maybe that's something that could be done down the road, but for the world of Kamagawa, it didn't make sense. And I, these are not things that were, I believe, considered last time at all.
00:26:34
Speaker
Yeah. Not at all. It was a very west... Go ahead. Yeah, no, I agree. I think it was extremely reductive, I suppose. It was extremely pop culture. The kind of kamigaba we saw, especially with regards to the weapons, was very much like Ninja Turtles level. They had to have the Kasari Gama, which is never used correctly in Western media, which is fine. But you always see people throwing a scythe at the end of the chain, and that's wildly impractical, but whatever.
00:27:03
Speaker
It was a weapon designed by farmers for farmers. Yeah, sorry. It's good for farming, not so much for non-farming is what you're saying. No, it was a weapon where farmers used to defend themselves and their property. The way you use it is you throw the bottom chain. That's why it has a rock or a weight at the end of it to hit the person. Then you go in close with the blade, but you always see movies like
00:27:25
Speaker
ninja assassin doing ridiculous stuff where you're like swinging around a blade at the end of the chain doing like insane like house of the flying guillotine type stuff got you okay i'm sorry random tangent no tangents are very important part of our podcast so we don't go down a pathway at least once
00:27:46
Speaker
I think a good, what was that line from the panel that I thought, it just really hit me, was it the lies we tell ourselves versus the lies we tell about each other? Yeah, I thought that was really, really profound and was a really fantastic understanding, a statement about like how we
00:28:04
Speaker
how we perceive ourselves, how we perceive the other, the quote unquote, the other. One thing I also thought was, well, I have two points. The first I'm going to say is like, one thing I very much appreciated was the introduction of traditional Japanese crafts.
00:28:23
Speaker
and very specific aesthetic styles and touchstones that were not just swords that was really in for fans. Something that I felt was really more, and I've been doing a series of tweets on these as they come out, and I'm like, oh, I recognize that. I'm going to write about it real quick. I will probably do a article about all of this again in Card Kingdom in a couple of weeks or so.
00:28:52
Speaker
But things like, for example, Hakone marketry, which if you're not familiar, marketry is basically the art or the craft of taking different colored woods, cutting them to shapes, and then inlaying them into, I think the Western style is to inlay them into another wooden surface, but Hakone
00:29:18
Speaker
marketry, basically what you do is you glue, you cut all of these pieces beforehand. There are files and blades that have been passed down for generations. It's amazing. So you cut these particular different kinds of woods into different shapes.
00:29:37
Speaker
You combine the shapes together into a pattern. It looks almost like a millefiori stick. It's like this really long stick of glue together wood. Then you glue more of the wood together until you get enough of it to create a pattern for a box. And then you shave off bits of that.
00:29:57
Speaker
in order to create a veneer for all of these things. And that's just one example, but it's such a specific thing, right? That I was blown away. I was blown away by that attention to detail.
Globalization and Cultural Exchange
00:30:11
Speaker
I was blown away by that commitment to authenticity. And it also really shows, I think, me and hopefully the audience as well, that the world building team and the art direction team are
00:30:23
Speaker
not in it just for the pop culture, they're in it to showcase some of the most unique things that Japanese culture has to offer, right? It's much more in depth than what we've been seeing before. Obviously, I really appreciate those one things kind of listening to Zach Stella talk about the art, the fact that they had the cultural consultant involved in every step of the kind of the process and recognizing, I think, you know, they talk about
00:30:51
Speaker
not everything could be changed or was going to. I mean, my favorite was the discussion of handedness. Yeah, it's like a lot of lefties on Kamigawa. Yeah, we could have lefties on Kamigawa. Before that, though, just like the attention to detail when it came to how a kimono is weird. Worn? Weird? Wow. How kimono be weird? How'd it be weird? Wow. That was very good. That was a good point I was making, too. Dang it.
00:31:20
Speaker
Now I ruined it. Dang, damn it. All those kimono being weird. Wearing weird on the wrong side. But no, that was actually something. It's like, oh, that can be fixed because it made a difference of whether the person was alive or not. Really, if you want to be sticking to this.
00:31:36
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that just shows a respect and care for the subject matter that wasn't really present in old Kamigawa. I think there's this desperation at least it reads to me in old Kamigawa, like, oh, we got to look cool.
00:31:56
Speaker
Ah, we got to make swords and stuff. And I'm just realizing, and maybe this is a theory that doesn't have basis and I think, but it's, I'm just putting this together as we're talking about it. But it's been, you know, how many
00:32:14
Speaker
what, 12, 15 years? Time has no meaning. I can't remember how long it's been since the last come ago. It's been a while. It's 18, I want to say. So they have not, I mean, now they're bringing the cultural consultants and really paying attention to these things. But also just from a game design standpoint, they've just developed their toolkit a lot better to be able to represent things. It's in the last decade or so, you know, as a random aside, we talk about
00:32:44
Speaker
cathartic reunion back in Kaladesh is as a way that they're trying to bring different emotion into red that isn't just combat and violence related that that's because that's a part of red's color pie that doesn't get represented in the standard
00:32:59
Speaker
combat style cards that usually get printed because the basis of magic the game is throwing fireballs at each other and summoning creatures to go fight. But from a world building standpoint there's so much more to life and they've made an effort to develop those things and find places in the cards be it an actual sort of technology like sagas or just in general.
00:33:24
Speaker
to find ways to express things that aren't just the combat that has allowed them now that they're also bringing in the cultural consultants and paying attention to these details and really trying to represent this, you know, culture in a mindful and thoughtful way. They also have better ways to do it as well.
00:33:44
Speaker
I think also to that point, it has been a long time since the last Kamigawa, and since then the world has changed. I'm not just talking about COVID, but- I mean, we are always. We are, but also other stuff- The day that we can have a conversation that doesn't have that involved, I'll be happy again.
00:34:05
Speaker
And you're talking a little bit different for once. Yeah. Um, once, once that's over, you're gonna like the world collectively just sounds a little happier. Um, but, but in that time, we've actually seen a real influx and understanding like the world back then. Um, like as a baby, a baby otaku, like a otaku, a chibi otaku, as you were, um,
00:34:34
Speaker
There was one place in town where I could get Sailor Moon stickers and it was hard to get Sailor Moon video tapes. It was a struggle. It was a struggle to be an otaku back then. And I'm not saying this in otaku-os of now being like, well, when I was your age, I have to. I had to walk five miles to get the next Dragon Bossy videotape.
00:35:02
Speaker
I do 10 miles to get that next record of lotus wall tapestry. It's been $30 for a VHS with two episodes of an anime on it. Now it's what, like 15 bucks a month for Crunchyroll or something? Yeah, something like that. But like since then, we've had so many things from like so much media from Japan infiltrate our own like at least American pop culture. And I think that's been
00:35:31
Speaker
great, honestly. Think of the things, we've had so many Studio Ghibli movies, everyone knows Totoro now. When I was a kid, ain't no one but me knew Totoro. And it was sad because he's a big dude and wants to keep the forest good.
00:35:48
Speaker
There was a Totoro reference in Bob's Burgers for one of their Thanksgiving episodes. They full on redid the tree sequence completely. There was a Totoro sequence in South Park, except it was Cthulhu and Eric Carter. Oh, that's right, yeah. Maybe a part of this is maybe just now we're really in a good place where we can
00:36:10
Speaker
We can have more authentically Japanese content. That's an interesting idea, too. For so long, America, one of our biggest exports is our culture. And it has been for a long time. We've been telling our stories and exporting them to the rest of the world. And now, I mean, there's always been stories coming from other parts of the world, but there's so many more coming from so many more places.
00:36:35
Speaker
Yeah, with globalization comes more of a media melting pot. And I think that's been really great. It's been wonderful, except for I just can't get around my head around like the Scandinavian murder genre, the quiet murder genre, where it's just a bunch of Scandinavian people being like, I don't know.
00:36:54
Speaker
Or like, you need to solve the murder or something. It's like snowing outside. People have lots and lots in their name and I'm like, okay, yeah, they fell on the ice, whatever, I don't care. Same with the dark, same with the dark, like German, like that German shit? I don't care. I don't like those. Give me like more otaku nonsense.
00:37:18
Speaker
I actually just showed my girlfriend old boy for the first time I had to explain how like Korean specifically have a whole sub genre that's literally just overly elaborate revenge. And that's literally the whole point of the film. Like, there's like full sub genre. Yeah, to an extent. Basically, like kind of took a lot of Tarantino. But yeah, like, yeah, let's be honest there. You're you shaking your fist there.
00:37:44
Speaker
Oh, go back to your feet. Leave us alone. I just ended up with thinking of handling a Bruce Lee in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. So sorry. Sorry. No, it's but yeah, I think that we're just in a better place where we can handle stuff like this now.
Japan's Technology and Tradition Blend
00:38:03
Speaker
Like we're.
00:38:05
Speaker
we're in a better, I think, I don't know if we're in necessarily a better place, like overall, um, there's a lot of arguments against that, but I think we are in a better place vis-a-vis being able to look at something like, uh, I don't know, a bunch of commie, like holding, like the, the spirited away card, it was like March. It's a white marching cycle card, which I love. Um, and you just look at it and you're like, Oh yeah, spirited away. And that's perfect. And it's great. Yep.
00:38:36
Speaker
And so going back to the rest of the roundtable, kind of any of the points that we didn't really hit on, I think that the biggest one that we started to that I just want to circle back with is that idea of the concept of the lies we tell ourselves versus the lies that we tell someone else.
00:38:53
Speaker
Um, because I thought that that was very powerful with kind of bringing up this idea that before it was kind of the lies that it was what basically the viewpoints of an outside group was about that group. It wasn't what that group would think about itself. And I think that there's a really big difference when we're talking about representation for that. I, sorry, I just got lost in a giant flashback to like,
00:39:16
Speaker
learning Moby Dick in high, in high school, like AP English should be like, ah, yes, limited human perspective. Everyone knows thinks Ahab is great, but Ahab thinks Ahab is great. I think that's absolutely correct, right? Like that's a really good point, not correct, but like, that's a really prominent and poignant idea to kind of meditate on, right? Like,
00:39:42
Speaker
That's probably how they came up with the idea of like their idea of the Commie war conflict because that's a very Western idea like you guys talked about before with the whole like it's separated because that's how Western society views like spiritualism spirits ghosts and what have you, you know, they are completely separate plane that's breaching into our world, you know, as opposed to like what they're doing now, like you guys said, it's just that's probably like, sorry, I'm talking circles again. Sorry about that. You're fine. It's yeah, I mean, it's, it's so nice to let
00:40:11
Speaker
Japanese, it's so nice to let the subject of this culture be able to lead the discussion on this culture, which is basically what we're having with this set in the world building.
00:40:30
Speaker
essentially discussing and positing a world that is rooted so centrally in Japanese culture, especially when we talk about technology. I think one of the best parts about this set
00:40:46
Speaker
is examining that one of the thesis of it is just examining our relationship with technology.
Inclusive World-Building in Kamigawa
00:40:54
Speaker
This was touched on a little bit more in the preview thing with like B.D. Walters and Brianna, I forget her name, but basically they...
00:41:06
Speaker
Japan is in itself a country that is struggling to combine, not really struggling, but coming up with interesting ways of combining the traditional with the technological. I think one of the best ways to sort of look at this is actually, I think a really great example would be elderly care.
00:41:33
Speaker
and i know that's a really random thing for me to tangent on but follow me on this train i promise they're cookies uh and you did promise you did promise carbs so i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm going to let you take us down this path okay so
00:41:51
Speaker
In a lot of East Asian cultures, a lot of cultures in general, but not especially, but in Japanese culture, taking care of your elders, super important, respecting them, making sure they've got access to stuff. For a lot of elderly folks, Japan has one of the most accessible, elderly-friendly infrastructures in the world because a lot of their population is elderly.
00:42:13
Speaker
One of the problems that they have been running into is just loneliness in a lot of the retirement homes. Loneliness is just something that we all struggle with. It's one of the reasons why many of us during the pandemic got pets. Of course, that's not going to be really
00:42:30
Speaker
tenable within a retirement home situation, right? Like having something by your side that will entertain you, comfort you. So one of the things that they decided to create, that a robotics team decided to create was called paro. Paro
00:42:46
Speaker
which I had the good fortune of being able to hold at a fair one day, at a technology fair in Japan town. It's a seal. It's a white harp seal. It's a giant white harp seal. It's about like 24, 30 inches.
00:43:01
Speaker
in length. It's got some heft to it, and if you look it up, it basically responds to your voice. It responds to the tone of your voice. It makes cute noises. It links its eyes. It's able to make comforting gestures, and it's warm.
00:43:17
Speaker
And this was especially helpful to a lot of older folks with dementia because it gave them some comfort and it gives, heck I don't, I'm not old yet and gave me comfort just standing there in the middle of San Francisco. Well, it's a seal. I mean, come on. It's super cute, right? It is. Yeah. It's super cute, but it's like, this is kind of how
00:43:38
Speaker
What culture would create this? Specifically, what culture would create an adorable anthropomorphic robot creature that with big eyes to comfort their elderly population? It's a very distinctly Japanese approach, I think. They're developing robots right now to help take care of elderly folks in homes.
00:44:03
Speaker
again, that has a very Japanese sensibility to it because there just aren't a lot of people right now to help take care of them. And plus they are very anti-immigration, but that's another story. But yeah, it's just a really interesting blend of taking technology and using it in accordance to societal values. And we're sort of seeing that right now, that kind of play out in that struggle.
00:44:28
Speaker
on Kamigawa, right, where we have these amazing new origami sort of eschatology. But how do we, but it's, you know, the use of it, the struggle over who gets to use it, that sort of being the main conflict here. Yeah, it's good. The conflict between.
00:44:47
Speaker
technology and what it can do and then who has access to it, right? Like an access type question felt very much in line with this. And I appreciated during the world building them talking about this didn't mean that, you know, one of the things that they didn't say was we wanted to get rid of everything that made the original Kamigawa the original Kamigawa, right? Like they wanted to be able to keep elements that people did like. They didn't say we want to tear this basically down and start over again. We want to bring it
00:45:16
Speaker
forward. Um, and I appreciated the just acknowledgement of we probably still don't go far enough, right? We're not going to yet. It's going to take steps, but to acknowledge that these are the steps and we're still going to make mistakes. And when those mistakes happen, hopefully they're going to be acknowledged instead of not. And I did feel this whole world building video was a way of saying like, we're going to just out of the gate, acknowledge where we've come up short in the past.
Concluding Thoughts on Kamigawa
00:45:46
Speaker
Yeah, and also where we could come up short here, right? Yeah, that it's entirely possible.
00:45:52
Speaker
Yeah, I did actually point out that the teachings of the Kirin, which has art by Sam Burley, it's meant to be an ikebana piece. And as someone who has studied ikebana and practices it from time to time, I'm like, that's on ikebana. And he apologized and was like, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm like, I'm not offended. It's a beautiful piece. It's just on ikebana.
00:46:17
Speaker
Um, and that's, and you know, like, it didn't hurt anyone. It's just like, I'm glad you, I'm glad you acknowledged it. I'm glad that, you know, we had this conversation. Um, and that's, that's it. We just, we live and we learn and next time, you know, we'll figure it out. I mean, as Ryan said, that discussion with Mark Zugg was a very similar element and I remember when that happened.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's really important to make sure that the intent is there and that the whole thing is to live and to learn and to grow. And I don't know, live, laugh, love. Wow. We really brought this back to the US, quick. Speaking of which, it's loopy fart time.
Episode Wrap-Up and Contact Info
00:47:04
Speaker
And that's our show for today. You can find the host on Twitter. HotzQ can be found at HotzQ, and Alex Newman can be found at Mel Underscore. Send any questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to at goblinlordpod on Twitter, or email us at goblinlordpodcast at email dot com. If you want to support your friendly neighborhood gobsmug, the cast can be found at patreon dot com slash goblinlordpod.
00:47:30
Speaker
Opening and closing music by Vindergarten, who can be found on Twitter at Vindergarten, or online at vindergarten.bandcamp.com. Logo art by Steven Raffaeo, who can be found on Twitter at Steve Raffel. Babylon Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast as part of their growing Vorthos content, as well as magic content of all kinds. Check them out on Twitter at hipstersmtg, or online at hipstersofthecoast.com.
00:47:59
Speaker
Thank you all for listening. And remember, goblins, like snowflakes, are only dangerous in numbers.