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Headero-sexuality with Stephen Quaderer
4.2k Plays3 years ago
We chatted with NYC-based entrepreneur Stephen Quaderer, who identifies as gay and pansexual. Stephen is the creator of Headero, the connection app for people who love oral pleasure ;) We talked about the queer future of dating apps; the potential pleasure of meeting people based on shared interests or desires rather than gender identity or sexuality; how to navigate the online dating scene safely and consensually, and the important of being honest and direct about preferences, kinks, and expectations. We also discussed Stephen's gay and pansexual identities and the growing number of gay men who are exploring sexual fluidity.
Download Headero: https://www.headero.com/
Thot Experiment: https://www.thotexperiment.co/
Follow Header on IG: https://www.instagram.com/headeroapp/?hl=en
Follow Stephen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ItsQuads
Two Bi Guys is produced and edited by Rob Cohen
Created by Rob Cohen and Alex Boyd
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
We are supported by The Gotham
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Visit tracysdog.com/ and use promo code “twobiguys” to get 15% off, and don’t forget to check out the OG Pro 2.
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Transcript
Introduction to Steven Quatterer
00:00:00
Speaker
🎵
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Two Bye Guys. I'm Rob. Today we're going to talk about sex and apps and dating and queerness, as usual. I'm here with Steven Quatterer. He is a New York City-based entrepreneur. He's the founder and CEO of The Thought Experiment, T-H-O-T thought.
00:00:31
Speaker
which is creating sex-positive, inclusive, and joyful platforms for sexual exploration and experimentation, things we love. And he's the creator of the app Hetero, the connection app for people who love oral pleasure, and that's Hetero with a D, H-E-A-D. So welcome to Two Bye Guys. Steven, nice to have you. Thanks so much for having me. Really excited to chat with you and the Two Bye Guys community about hetero and all things oral sex.
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah, I remember hearing about your app or maybe seeing it at some club or a party. You were promoting something and I got into it before we ever met. So it was nice to meet you a few months ago and now talk to you here. Before we get into the app and all that and oral sex, we can talk all day about oral sex. Let's start with you. What pronouns do you use? How do you identify on any spectrums you would like to identify on?
00:01:30
Speaker
Hi again, my name is Steven. I'm a cis man. My pronouns are he, him, and identify as both gay and pansexual, which I acknowledge is somewhat of a contradiction.
Journey to Embracing Pansexuality
00:01:41
Speaker
Um, but it's genuinely true to who I am. Cool. I have, I have many follow-ups on that. So, so, I mean, you're, you're not the first person we've had on lately who identifies as gay and pansexual. I feel like when we started this podcast, I didn't see that so often. And really very recently I'm seeing that a lot more and it's awesome. And my co-host Alex, who drops by from time to time, I think sort of identifies that way too.
00:02:11
Speaker
um and and by so i'm curious like which I i'm assuming you came to the gay identity first like how did you come to that identity tell us the story and then and then I want to talk about how it Connects to pansexuality and how that happened? Uh, yes, you're right. The first sexuality label that I applied to myself was that of a gay man Cool. Um, my first relationship and sexual experiences were with someone of the same sex in high school
00:02:38
Speaker
And in college, I dated a few women and hooked up with a few guys, but didn't really find myself in any serious relationships. My first relationship after college was with a gay man. He was actually a classmate of mine, but we really got introduced to one another in New York City.
00:03:00
Speaker
You know, I felt that this was something serious. You know, it was my first like post-college romance. And I kind of realized that I shouldn't stay in the closet. I needed to come out and tell people about this. Like that's just a normal healthy part about being in a relationship. But at the same time, I had this feeling that in doing so, I would have to kind of like shoehorn my own sexuality.
00:03:26
Speaker
into a specific box. And I knew that it didn't entirely fit. And I was kind of resistant to it. And I kind of had this part of the fear and the difficulty in coming out, of course, was just that fear that everyone that comes out as queer or not heteronormative of rejection. So that was the big one. But the other was that I would have to kind of like
00:03:53
Speaker
contort who I was into what society expected me to be. And for me, that was the box of being gay. And I actually even said this, I said to one person, only one person, my brother, I said, look, this isn't all of who I am, but I'm coming to terms with this, and I'm going to
00:04:13
Speaker
that I'm going to be viewed and be a gay person from here on out. And I just accepted that for years, for over 15 years. But I would say over time, being gay and identifying as gay has really truly been such a huge and welcome part of my identity over time. Like I've connected with a community of friends and lovers who have
00:04:40
Speaker
you know, helped me grow and then a support structure and a family for me. And it wasn't until much later in life that I realized, well, you know what, I can keep that and I can also acknowledge this other part of who I am, right, that I'm also attracted to people of all genders.
The Role of Labels in Sexual Identity
00:04:58
Speaker
And for me, when I came to that realization,
00:05:01
Speaker
you know, pansexual seems to be the most fitting. So I said, well, you know, okay, maybe it's not logically consistent, but I am going to identify as both. Cool. And so before that relationship after college, like you were hooking up or dating with guys, but not, but when you say you were in the closet, you mean you, you didn't share that with anyone else other than those guys? That's right. That's right. Um, yeah. And I had, and I had, um, you know,
00:05:31
Speaker
relationships and sexual experiences with women as well. It was like I would be dating and then for me, New York City, which is where I grew up just outside of New York City, was always the place where I could be freest to explore the queer side of who I am.
00:05:48
Speaker
Cool. Yeah, that's interesting. And so when you came out, did you like think about those relationships you had with women and stuff? And like, was that part of the box you've kind of realized you didn't quite fit into?
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And it caused some like, people were like, what was that, you know, and I'm like, and there wasn't a great explanation. But like, yeah, that was I was attracted to this person. And there was also like an exploration experimentation, because like, for me, I did it very differently. Like my first relationship, my first love was the same gender as me.
00:06:22
Speaker
And so, you know, then college was like, OK, well, let's try out these, you know, like, let's go and explore that part of who I am. I mean, that was true to me. But yeah, so so very much then like going into this, you know, for some period of time and just being like, well, no, I'm going to embrace this this part of who I am, which is which is gay and just sort of run with that. And I did that for years.
00:06:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting because your story reminds me a lot of my co-hosts, Alex, who really talks about the gay box the same way. He knew he was attracted to men, and so he felt like he had to just sort of, then you're in that box if you want to tell people about it. And it's kind of like,
Societal Expectations and Personal Exploration
00:07:05
Speaker
I feel the same way looking back. I was in a straight box identifying a straight, but because it was the default and you didn't really have to make a choice to be straight, you just had to make no choice almost, that I didn't really realize how much of a box I was in until my late 20s and my attractions to men were bubbling up.
00:07:29
Speaker
But I guess my question is, in addition, if you have any thoughts on that, do you think because a gay identity is such an active choice and putting you outside the mainstream, especially 10, 20 years ago, that then forces you to abandon these other things? I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?
00:07:56
Speaker
Absolutely. I just see it so much more lately that people who chose the gay label initially are now wanting to break out of the rigidity of that.
00:08:10
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. You know, what I would say, and I think that that's another part of the reason why I identify strongly as being gay, because it did liberate me in so many ways, because you're, you're suddenly outside of the norm, the normative kind of like societal framing in a lot of ways. And so that was core to, for me, sexual liberation.
00:08:32
Speaker
You know, because being queer, we're outside of the norm. So that gives you the opportunity to go out and explore your sexuality, explore sex, and to meet lovers in an environment that is grounded not in stigma, that's grounded in joy and excitement and love and all of the good things. So I think that
00:08:58
Speaker
In that sense, taking that gay label really did liberate me in so many different dimensions because, yeah, I'm out there. I came out of the closet. It was incredibly hard, psychologically, the single hardest thing I think I've ever personally chosen to do. I came out on the other side of that and I'm like, well, I lived through this. I made it and it gives you a strength that you just wouldn't have thought that you had.
00:09:28
Speaker
Yeah, same with me and the bi label, which I took on later, but getting through that sort of hurdle or barrier, then it kind of opened me up and freed me up to think about more than just what I thought of as the bi label and also
00:09:47
Speaker
what does the label really mean? Like what might I be interested in in a label this way? Like what if I didn't think of myself as anything?
Development of the Hetero App
00:09:58
Speaker
And I'm actually, especially like people slightly younger than me these days, like in their 20s and stuff, like I'm hearing that a lot. They're like, I'm not bi, I'm not fluid. I'm like nothing. I'm whatever I want to be today and tomorrow I'll be whatever I want to be.
00:10:13
Speaker
tomorrow and I've literally have friends who will say they're gay one day and buy another day just because they feel like it that day. Do you identify with that or have you seen a lot of that? This may lead us into your thought experiment in a minute.
00:10:29
Speaker
It absolutely does. It very much resonates with me. And I think that this sort of, it's a fascinating thing, these labels, because I see it in myself. I see it in my own life. I see how they can be extremely beneficial when you put them on yourself, right? When I have self-selected this, then I have this community of people who are supportive. This is like, it's a sort of armor. It's a warm blanket.
00:10:58
Speaker
But at the same time, when someone else puts that label on you, because of characteristic that they perceive, then it's a straight jacket, right? Yeah. Literally. Yeah. Straight jacket. Literally. So it is something that I think about quite a bit and
00:11:22
Speaker
It very much did influence how we've approached things, you know, the mission and purpose of thought experiment, but very much as core to how we designed hetero. And really, the genesis of the idea was really like core was really tied into this.
00:11:38
Speaker
cool. Okay, one more labels question and then we'll get into the work you're doing. So when exactly did you take on the pansexual label and why, what was going on, what does that mean to you, and how has that identity, if at all, changed the way you're approaching dating or sex or relationships?
00:12:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's sort of interesting. So before I took on the pan label, I hadn't heard of it at this time. But I remember, obviously, as we all do, I went through a few different relationships. And after one breakup, I went online. And I was like, well, I want to explore both sides of who I am without putting the label on it.
00:12:21
Speaker
And I went on one of the apps or one of the websites, and I was chatting with a girl, and we were totally having a great back and forth. And I just felt like, well, I feel like I need to disclose this. The fact that I identify as gay and I've had male lovers, and I just felt like that was the right thing to do. And maybe it wasn't, but when I did,
00:12:47
Speaker
It was really, really stark where she said basically immediately like, well, thank you, but no, thank you. And it was because she's like, well, I just don't want that extra competition. And of course, like consent, like consent matter. So it's like, you're not down with me. That's, you know, that's cool. But it really like.
00:13:04
Speaker
I it struck me and it just it put me like I like had sort of like bubbled my head up to the surface and I felt like I got hit on the head and I was like, okay, back down again. Yeah, you know, and then it wasn't until really I started this journey with thought experiment and with hetero that
Mission of The Thought Experiment
00:13:23
Speaker
I really reevaluated this and came became comfortable of
00:13:28
Speaker
disclosing this to people again. And then with that disclosure, finding a label that I thought was better fitting for me. So identifying as gay and pan, this is like two and a half years to maybe three years that I've kind of like
00:13:46
Speaker
taken this and owned it and been open about it and told people, which is another, like, I felt like I was coming out of the closet again. Right. Right. I was going to say how did, like, how did it compare to the coming out as gay? Like, it sounds like some different but similar kind of stigmas.
00:14:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, it was very different because like I'd already gone through the coming out of the closet process and now I knew and I have this group of people who I love and trust and, you know, I didn't have, I think that big one, that fear of rejection wasn't there.
00:14:22
Speaker
But that's still that like, what is this? You don't fit into kind of like that, that was still there. And I would say it was more kind of like a befuddlement than anything else. Like some people would just be like, what is, I don't even understand what that means. And so I think that was, my second coming out was really more along those lines. So much, it was a much lower threshold. Like I'd already come out and now it was just like, oh, also this kind of. That's how it felt.
00:14:50
Speaker
It seems like when people come out as gay, it's like people usually believe you and they also like understand what that means pretty quickly. But then coming out as like bi or pan or fluid or something else, it's like, A, people don't believe you. They think you're like really gay or something else or whatever, or confused or whatever. And B, they don't really know what it means or why you're telling them or like what. So there's that too.
00:15:19
Speaker
Totally. I mean, I had one friend who after I came out, you know, and he's still, he's still a good friend of mine, but like he then responded back with like, oh, you know, in like a French group chat, like about like, he put pan and quotation marks, and I just kind of like took him aside afterwards. I'm like, you're kind of being like, you know, like your auntie who's like, oh, are you, you know, like, it's sort of like, you're, you're not really accepting that this is, it's sort of like, it's like, it's still putting that seed of doubt. Like, is this a real thing? It's like,
00:15:47
Speaker
It's real. It is who I am. But I think that was just not that hard of a conversation. But it definitely exists. And bi-erasure is definitely incredibly real. And it's very unfortunate in that the fact that the stigma exists on bi-erasure and pan-erasure on, unfortunately, both sides of the spectrum. Yeah.
00:16:11
Speaker
Right. I mean, the biracial hurts. I think there's so many straight identified men who might come out as bi if there weren't so much stigma and biphobia, but I feel like there's that in the gay community too. Totally. If there's stigma there against fluid sexuality and it boxes a lot of gay men and probably lesbian women also. Absolutely. I honestly believe that's true. Yeah.
00:16:42
Speaker
This episode of Two Bye Guys is sponsored by Hinge, the dating app that believes anyone looking for love should be able to find it. You know, dating as a queer person can be very challenging. If you listen to this podcast, you know that, and that's what we talk about all the time.
00:16:58
Speaker
And it's especially complicated if you identify as bisexual, pansexual, fluid, anywhere in the middle of the sexuality spectrum or gender spectrum. That's in large part why we started this podcast, to answer some of those questions specifically for bi people. But there's always more. And so to help our community navigate the complicated world of LGBTQIA plus dating, Hinge is bringing you not so frequently asked questions. It's answers to the LGBTQIA plus questions.
00:17:27
Speaker
that are not talked about enough. They've set up this website with lots of these questions. The responses are from diverse creators from the queer community. So hopefully this is a resource that can help you navigate the less straightforward areas of dating as a queer person or dating another queer person.
00:17:44
Speaker
Some of the questions you can find answers to there are, how can I start dating if I'm not ready to come out? How do I recover from accidentally misgendering while trying to flirt? Or if you're demisexual, what's the best way to set expectations around waiting to get sexual? If you're listening to this podcast, you may have some questions about dating specifically as a bi person or dating another bi or pan or fluid person. You can submit your questions, you can get answers to other questions, and learn more about how other people navigate these dating challenges.
00:18:14
Speaker
So, to learn more and hear different perspectives on these not-so-frequently asked questions, go to hinge.nfaq.co.
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00:18:24
Speaker
That's hinge.nfaq.co.
00:18:35
Speaker
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Critique of Societal Stigma Around Sex
00:20:25
Speaker
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00:20:40
Speaker
So all of that kind of makes sense to lead to the work you're doing. So start wherever you want, I guess. I guess with the thought experiment and how you started it, what it's about. Yeah, okay. So I'll start with thought experiment. So for me,
00:20:56
Speaker
being a gay man and kind of being, I believe, through that experience, having become sexually liberated, I came to realize that sex is really a wonderful thing. It's a great way to explore yourself, to explore others. It's joyful, it's uplifting. I have grown so much through lovers and through just this experience of kind of like infinite,
00:21:25
Speaker
kind of like discovery process that you can find through sex and how wonderful sex is when it's grounded in consent, right? Like that's all you need, right? Like you have two consenting adults, you know, and you can go on this wonderful, amazing, uplifting journey together, right? And so like that, because of this sexually liberated kind of experience that I had was, you know, I hold that dearly, you know, in my heart, like this is a wonderful thing.
00:21:54
Speaker
And then I contrast it to how society treats sex and where it's grounded in stigma. And so it's just it's getting it so wrong. And we know, right, like stigma, it applies not based on any moral absolutes. It applies based on power hierarchies, right? Like it's about control.
00:22:16
Speaker
And to me, the juxtaposition of what sex is, this wonderful part of who we are and how society treats it is just so jarring. Yeah. And, you know, like, and so that that has bothered me for years.
00:22:34
Speaker
it's really bothered me. And you know, like, you know, we, we treat sex as if it's some dirty thing. And it unfortunately, that that does nothing but enable, you know, abusers, because like, right, like, it's, it's getting it all wrong. Yeah. And, and so that has been, it's been a passion of mine, right? And I didn't know where to apply it. And so the idea for hetero came first, like that the problem was there. And it was like, always like, you know, buzzing around in my mind,
00:23:05
Speaker
And then, the idea for hetero was to create a space that was legitimately for everyone, all gender identities and all sexualities, right? And so the realization that I had the how to do that was to, instead of ground in identity,
00:23:29
Speaker
which is kind of the norm in the hookup app space, particularly in like the gay space, right? Like you've got apps for people based on, you know, first of all they are like typically segmented based on like your sexuality, right? And then they further segment based on like your body type or like literally your facial hair or your ethnicity or your age, right? And the problem that I saw with that was it was just sort of like taking this community and really thinning it out.
00:23:59
Speaker
and putting ourselves into smaller and smaller little boxes. And so the aha moment for me was to, OK, well, let's just flip that problem on its head, for lack of a better word. And rather than focus on identity, focus on desire. Because desire can be shared by everyone, by people of all identities. And so that was the genesis of the idea for hetero. Yeah.
00:24:25
Speaker
cool. You're allowed to make as many puns as you want on this podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. People love puns. And so, and then, so then you started hetero. I have more questions about that, but then like, and then now you have this sort of umbrella mission with the thought experiment. Yeah. First of all, how do you define thought and then, and then what's, uh, what's the thought experiment?
00:24:50
Speaker
Yeah. So thought, you know, to me is someone honestly, who's just sexually liberated, like, you know, uh, you know, I don't know if I can curse, but like fucks thought shaming, like it's, it's all okay. All of them, all of the things that were an explicit podcast.
00:25:08
Speaker
So, you know, like, it's just that's everything that's wrong, right? Like, sledgehammering is everything that's wrong. It's stigma grounded, it's stigma based. And, you know, you know, we talked about the labels and sometimes you can just take a label, turn it inside out and own it. And that's kind of what I wanted to do with thought experiment. And also acknowledging that
00:25:29
Speaker
you know, sex and sexuality is a discovery process. So I liked the idea of experimentation, you know, and so that's that was what sort of like grounded, grounded thought experiment. And then the bigger idea with that experiment is to enable a community of people who share a common set of values that are that are again, you know, distilled to the core, you know,
00:25:56
Speaker
you know around sex positivity and I have a lot of like there's a lot to unpack there and and to reject stigma really like and to be consent grounded sex positive inclusive space that rejects stigma so like that was the idea of like well you could do a lot there's a lot of different things that you could do within that
00:26:22
Speaker
cool. Cool. That sounds awesome. And it makes so much sense to me, this idea of like, because I grew up with so much stigma around sex. And it was such a like thing that you did in the dark in private and you didn't talk to anyone about and like,
00:26:40
Speaker
there was a lot of shame associated with it, but also competition. It was competition among my straight male friends to see who could get the most ass. But then it wasn't actually about, did you enjoy it? And did it feel good? And did your make your partner feel good? And was it all consensual? And no, it was just like, did you bang someone? And I think there's also something connected to queerness in that
00:27:10
Speaker
my perception of all this started shifting with the change in my perception of my sexuality. And I started thinking more in terms of, well, consent, which I want to talk about, but pleasure. And the whole point of it is pleasure. Why not start there? And if you are starting there, then what's all the shame for and what's all the stigma for? So you're doing something pleasurable between two consenting
00:27:40
Speaker
people. That makes sense as a place to start and it is a queer way of looking at sex and relationships. Yeah, I totally agree. That's being pleasure-centric and that is the kernel of the idea because pleasure and desire go hand in hand.
00:28:03
Speaker
And then, you know, going back to our earlier conversation around labels, that my own experience with labels really did inform, you know, the design of hetero and as did a lot of like discussions with the community, with the gay community, bi, pan, like we said,
00:28:20
Speaker
a long process of engaging with people to make sure that we're getting it right. But one of the things that you see within hetero is actually we don't utilize any of the sexuality boxes. Never asks for sexuality. What the app asks for is your gender identity and what gender identities you're down with. And it allows for real-time fluidity in either dimension.
00:28:43
Speaker
Right? So like very much what we were talking about around, you know, these boxes, you know, like really, at the end of the day, we felt that they just weren't necessary for this space will allow you to connect with whomever you'd like to connect with. And it's sort of taking that restrictive element, just taking it out entirely and just architecting the whole thing differently.
00:29:05
Speaker
Right. It's like there is a time in your personal life where a label can sort of help you and expand your world, but it does seem like on an app to connect with people that that might actually limit things. Right. Because what if there's someone outside what you thought of that likes something you like and you would have a good time together? Exactly. So what were those conversations like with community or how did you develop that or
00:29:31
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it was, it was, you know, through outreach and the number of like digital channels. So, so I, you know, I had the idea for hetero in like January of 2020 and obviously the pandemic hit and I think perfect timing.
00:29:46
Speaker
in a way it really works out because like I realized like well I'm not going to launch this thing in the middle of the this pandemic and you know unfortunately obviously the pandemic is still going but nevertheless I viewed that as giving a lot of time right like I didn't feel any time pressure so I just you know first I got educated in terms of like how to conduct kind of like research with with with people right like so I hired a researcher she taught me she did a little bit and then I just reached out on a lot of different channels
00:30:16
Speaker
And I said, hey, we're trying to create a new type of hookup app that is inclusive of all gender identities, all sexualities, and we want to get your feedback. And that process
00:30:31
Speaker
where I talked about what the app was, and then there was a lot of free-flowing dialogue. And that was by far just the best move, because I got real feedback. One person, it was a trans man who said, look,
00:30:49
Speaker
the way the way that I even like, I set up the like the questionnaire, he was like, you got it wrong. Like the way that you frame and it totally shifted the way that we architected, you know, gender identity. And so like, that was, that was great. Because like, I, you know, honestly, as much as I was trying to get right, I lived that experience, you know, you know, so talking with someone,
00:31:11
Speaker
Um, who, who, you know, was trans that sort of could say like, look, this, I know what you're thinking. And this was like, literally the words that he used, but like, you know, but I, but this is where you're getting it wrong. And just like, no, you know, just, just great constructive feedback. And it totally shifted the way that we, that we actually architected it. And so.
00:31:33
Speaker
I was really grateful for having had that experience and having had that opportunity to talk with folks across a wide spectrum of gender identities and sexualities.
00:31:47
Speaker
And now word from our sponsor, BetterHelp. You know, when I was first recognizing my bisexuality and coming to terms with it, I thought it was something I would take to the grave and never tell anyone. I was very stuck focusing on problems instead of solutions. I was very wrapped up in fear of what would happen if I came out
00:32:07
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:35:27
Speaker
So Hetero is kind of like designed around oral sex, right? And so, okay, connect with anyone, talk about the oral sex and have some oral sex, right? So is that like, is it like, do you see it expanding? Is this like a proof of concept? Is it like, is the idea like connect over
00:35:48
Speaker
an activity you want to do, but add other sort of things? Or is it oral sex and then you're going to do something else entirely? What's your vision? Yeah. So the vision for hetero is
00:36:04
Speaker
One, I would say it's pretty clear that there's some real resonance here. I had this idea, and I am an oral enthusiast myself. No question about that. And there's been a resonance within, amazingly, because this was the core of what we wanted to treat with what was my dream is happening. You've got people who have a wide variety of gender identity sexualities that are actively using the app today.
00:36:30
Speaker
And so that was the first step, just see. And then the thought process was to see what the community wanted. And the way that I'm thinking about this now, so it was always that hetero would be a standalone community of people who had this shared interest, this shared desire. And then we engage in a dialogue, a continual dialogue with this community, with our community, and see what else. Because I think the way that we're thinking about it is
00:37:00
Speaker
with Thought Experiment, we can find, with this community, we can have a dialogue and think about what else people would like to have that doesn't exist today or doesn't exist in the form that people want. So that's kind of the vision. And then for hetero itself, the way that I think about it is, you can go on the app and you can see, you can connect over a wide range of kinks and other things that are,
00:37:26
Speaker
core to who you are in like other desires you can pursue. But you just kind of know like everyone on the app is like down with oral either giving or receiving. Like that's the way I kind of think about it at this stage.
00:37:38
Speaker
I mean, I don't know if this is the right term, it's like an affinity group, but like for this. She's like, okay, people who all have this thing in common, but that's not necessarily the only thing we have to talk about or we have to do. But at least you're like in an oral friendly environment. Yeah, totally. And it opens the door to conversations, I would assume.
00:38:03
Speaker
Yeah. I love a world, but it's not all I love. I do appreciate that I'm in this environment with like, my partner is going to be down with that. They're going to like that. That's cool because I like it. Yeah. I guess I'm curious, the reception based on identity. I know that the whole point and the goal is like,
00:38:27
Speaker
to get rid of identity as a gatekeeping thing. But at the same time, I'm like, okay, an oral sex app is probably going to really appeal to a lot of gay men and maybe not necessarily a straight woman. But I get your goals change that and destigmatize it.
00:38:46
Speaker
Right. To make it, you know, why should a straight woman feel or anyone feel like weird or ashamed of this? But like, what has the reception been? Have you seen that? Is there like an uphill battle to get there? Yeah, definitely. What we've seen is that, as you've mentioned, the gay community and really the queer community at large have been early adopters of hetero.
00:39:12
Speaker
Uh, that was expected. The queer community is fairly sexually liberated relative to the quote unquote straight community. Um, and also it's a reflection of how we went about launching, uh, hetero. You know, we were really intentional about connecting with the queer community, sponsoring events, going to queer spaces and talking about our purpose, like why we've created hetero and listening to feedback. Um, and you know, I,
00:39:42
Speaker
personally identifying as gay and pansexual, it was really, really critical to me that the queer community was represented on Hetero, that they felt that this was an app that was for them, right? And it's been really incredibly affirming to see the response from queer folks, both in joining the Hetero community and by sharing and talking about our platform, which
00:40:09
Speaker
is really critical given we can advertise in any meaningful way. But we also found that straight quote unquote cisgender men were really interested in hetero. Maybe not a huge surprise that an oral sex app was something that quote unquote straight men were fairly excited to sign up for. And then you're right, the conversation with straight quote unquote women, cis women was more nuanced. We had to recognize why straight cis women
00:40:37
Speaker
oftentimes don't feel comfortable or safe in sex-forward spaces and address that with our app and our community, with education, with features, and by creating a community that was fundamentally grounded in safety and consent. I think that was really, really essential for us. And part of that journey was to connect with women that are already going to sex-positive spaces that have stepped beyond that stigma-based framework.
00:41:07
Speaker
So while it did take a little longer, and candidly, that process is ongoing, I can honestly say that Hetero is showing more and more progress every day in achieving its purpose of being a sex-positive, consent-driven space for people of all gender identities and all sexualities, which to me is really just so motivating. That's why I'm doing this, and I'm so, so excited to be here. Right. It is cool, and it's cool that it's like,
00:41:35
Speaker
bringing together like the queer people and straight people because like why not like queer people and straight people can get
00:41:44
Speaker
can have sex and get along. No reason they can't if they are open to the other person. Let's get into this consent stuff and that rating system. First the rating system, then more about consent. So the rating system seems awesome to me. It sounds like, why isn't everyone doing this? I actually want to ask you that. Is there a catch? Why isn't everyone doing that?
00:42:10
Speaker
I don't know. Could people game that system and abuse it? Or how is it working out so far? Because it seems like, yeah, there's people on a grinder or something that I have weird interactions with. And if I could say to other people, hey, watch out, that might be helpful and good to know. And then there's great people who I have a ton of fun with, even though their profile might be not much. And I might want to be like, hey, this is a cool person.
00:42:36
Speaker
Absolutely. What we're really trying to create with Hetero is a community, right? An inclusive, sex-positive community. And so when we were creating the app, we spent a lot of time thinking about what it means and how to create a community. And we recognized that accountability was a necessary precursor for community. That concept led us to our ratings feature, where members can rate their experiences with people they've interacted with on Hetero.
00:43:07
Speaker
on the basis of our community guidelines, inclusivity, sex positivity and enthusiastic consent. Yeah. You know, so to be clear, it's not a rating based on anyone's sexual ability or looks or anything of that nature, because, you know, there are real downsides to that approach. We don't want people to feel bad. Right. And so we wanted this to be kind of like a positive uplifting feature. Right. And while we still have the standard report functionality for violations,
00:43:33
Speaker
We think this gives additional insight and accountability back to our community. Well, it's like Uber. You have rating systems in Uber. People could game it, but over time, it probably averages out to honesty. But it also makes me think that why do we treat sex so differently from anything else? Yeah.
00:43:53
Speaker
Like, actually, it is, I mean, it's not an Uber ride. It's different. But like, informing someone else how your experience was with another person is the same thing. And so like, why do we put a sex app in a totally different category? And no one has even thought to do that. You know, how was your experience rating kind of thing?
00:44:18
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And also the way that we've thought about this, and I think we've seen it bear out, is it also creates an incentive structure to be kind, right? That is totally lacking elsewhere. Like every other app, we have a reporting feature. But all a reporting feature does is tell you, this person's been bad, right? And so that's the only signal that is being put into this ecosystem. And in most apps, it's only going to the admins.
00:44:46
Speaker
And now here is the thing that says like, yeah, actually, this person's been wonderful. Like, you know, like, they truly made me feel welcome. And so like, I'm giving them a five star for inclusivity, or, or, you know, they, they shared their boundaries and asked for my boundaries and respected those boundaries. I'm giving them a five star, giving them a heart for enthusiastic consent. Right.
00:45:12
Speaker
Yeah, so there's a positive incentive structure here, too. Right. In my head, the first thing I thought of was people who are violating boundaries or doing weird things like you would want to know.
00:45:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, yes, you would want to know, but I'm pretty cautious anyway, and people could create a new profile and whatever. But that side of things you never see and would be really nice to just have a little more confidence going in that this other people think this person is cool and respectful too. Totally. And yeah, on Grindr or other apps, there's so much
00:45:53
Speaker
bad behavior that's not non-consensual, but that's just rude, or deleting people, or blocking people for no reason. There's nothing to de-incentivize you doing that on those apps, so it happens all the time.
00:46:08
Speaker
Yeah. There's just, there's a lot of negativity in the other apps and it's like, well, let's, let's create a space with, you know, a community in the community. Like there's a positive incentive structure. There's, you know, being good gets, you know, yields you more connections and, and just a better life, frankly.
00:46:25
Speaker
Yeah. So like when I came out and I was first exploring with men and I was not out, so I was doing it like secretly and I was on some of these apps and like I didn't, I was like naive and I didn't always know like, how does this work? And so, you know, I had a lot of great experiences and fun experiences that led me to want to continue, but I also had some weird ones and bad ones and ones I like,
00:46:52
Speaker
wouldn't want to do again and wished I had asked a different question beforehand or something. I guess my question is, what was your experience with that stuff that led you to realize this was very important and how
00:47:12
Speaker
how do you help those people who might be exploring this stuff for the first time and want to do it safely? How can an app help with that? Yeah, totally. I think
00:47:27
Speaker
My experience mirrors yours, to be honest, where I had some amazing uplifting experiences. I had some that were not or not. So whether it was just negativity in the chat environment or just an experience that wasn't great at the end of the day where I didn't feel super comfortable or just didn't go the right way. So absolutely, this was something that I was really focused on.
00:47:57
Speaker
And so kind of creating, in my mind, I think that the longer-term solution for this, insofar as you could call it that, is one, to enable a community. Because I think communities do help to kind of like self-regulate, set norms,
00:48:16
Speaker
But as part of enabling that community, I think education is really, really huge. And it's also kind of...
00:48:30
Speaker
There's an indictment on our education system that the very basics of sexual education are just not taught. So some people don't even know what consent is. They don't know what gender is. And so I think that we have a really great opportunity here, one, to enable this community. And really, this rating feature is like, it's the first step in that direction. There are other steps that we've taken, but it's the most substantive. And then education.
00:48:56
Speaker
And then bringing those things together, education that enables community, community that creates education, is where I see this becoming something that is sustainably creating a truly joyful, sex-positive space. Technology doesn't do it. Technology, there's a place for it, but it's not the answer for human beings.
00:49:23
Speaker
and enabling people to connect in an authentic and human way is, I think, the way to create a better experience for all of us. Yeah, interesting. And my other experience coming out as queer was that
00:49:38
Speaker
I was no longer in the traditional boxes of a straight relationship of a male and female power dynamic. I never liked that power dynamic to begin with, but I don't think I really knew how to break out of it. I just assumed that's the way it has to be. And then with queer relationships, I
00:49:58
Speaker
I realize you're kind of forced to write your own script and talk about stuff and where do you want to fall in this power dynamic? So I guess multiple questions again, like what's your experience with that and can we bring that to the straight world sort of? Through this education and outreach, you're talking about
00:50:21
Speaker
I think it would be cool if straight people also didn't get boxed into those dynamics and could write the script of their relationship from the ground up in the same way, but many people don't even know that's allowed.
00:50:36
Speaker
Yeah, I 100% agree. And that is something that was, again, really wonderful for me in taking on that gay label because it did exactly as you've said. We got to write and I got to figure out where I wanted to fit on the spectrum on all these different dimensions.
00:50:56
Speaker
And I do think of hetero and other kind of sex-positive spaces and communities as a great space for people to question those things and to do the same, because there's no reason that people who are straight identifying can't. And so we do weave that into the app in some ways subtle, in some ways not so subtle.
00:51:16
Speaker
So, for instance, in relationship dynamics, we've got a whole host of things, right? Whether it's polyamory, we have one for female-like relationships, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
00:51:38
Speaker
you know, female-led relationships is by far one of the most widely selected of people who I would say don't self-identify under the queer umbrella, which is kind of interesting. Yeah, so I think that that will enable people to ask questions.
00:51:55
Speaker
of us as the people who are building this app of the community, of themselves, of society. And I think those kinds of questions are, that's the path, right? Like that will lead us to this more sexually liberated and future and where we cast aside these like pre-built power dynamics that never did fit and really belong kind of thrown away, you know? Yeah.
00:52:20
Speaker
that is cool too that people could find stuff on an app that they don't know what it is and then learn it there and be like, oh yeah, I'll try that. Cool. If you're not out or you're not talking to your friends about sex and kink and whatever, then learn about it somewhere.
00:52:42
Speaker
Personally, I love to talk about everything in a sexual encounter beforehand and I like to set expectations and know what we're going to do and what is not going to be on the table and it just helps me relax and not feel pressure to
00:52:58
Speaker
When I don't know exactly what we're going to do, I feel pressure to figure it out and then I'm not in the moment. Okay, this is getting to a question. But then I know other people who are like, I don't want to talk about everything, just do whatever you want and I'll tell you if I don't like it. I guess in your mind, what's the balance of that amount of, what's the right amount of
00:53:26
Speaker
verbal consent or enthusiastic consent or how do you approach it or how do you recommend people approach it to be on the same page?
00:53:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, I think that it can be, you can go about it a couple of different ways. Like the core of it is respecting the other person, respecting their agency, and in keeping their needs, their desires forefront in your mind, which will lead to a better experience for everyone if we're all living true to these things. I think that, you know, that can be,
00:54:03
Speaker
done in a way of really, you know, even going so far as to scripting a scene, right? Like that can be, if that's what your partner makes them feel most comfortable, then I would encourage you to do that, right? Or it can be, you know, agreeing on like, these are the signals, right? Like, you know, I would say to the extent that you're meeting with someone new,
00:54:25
Speaker
at the very base level, you absolutely, even if it's not a kink scene, have a way of each of you identifying like, I'm not comfortable, right? Like have a safe word that says, you know, look, I'd like to take it easy. And it doesn't need to be like, you know, I'm being traumatized, but like,
00:54:45
Speaker
Maybe we want to go chill out and watch Netflix for a while and come back to it like any time to process. So I would say that there are a lot of different paths and kind of like being explicit about each and every step is not a necessity for consent.
00:55:03
Speaker
unless it is for you, right? And then if it is, you know, verbalize that, that's a boundary for you. And if the other person doesn't respect that boundary, then that's a huge red flag, right? And so that's kind of the way that I think about it. There are multiple paths to get there and it's really about what is the dynamic
00:55:25
Speaker
that works for these two people that respects the core of it, of respecting the other person and caring about them and caring about their needs and respecting their boundaries.
00:55:37
Speaker
Right. Yeah, for me, I do have a scene or know exactly, decide ahead of time, and then it takes some of this pressure off me. But yeah, that doesn't work for everyone. So just to have a space to talk about that and not have to bring it up out of the blue, but to have this set space to do it seems helpful.
00:56:10
Speaker
I think the only other thing on the topic that we were just on around sexual discovery, one of the things that I like about the number of different dynamics and kinks that we have in the app is some people aren't comfortable in broaching that in a chat dynamic. Now you can just see, hey, we share this interest. And that can lead you to a lot of really fun places.
00:56:37
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Like, I mean, I've I have certain specific interests and like sometimes it's hard to like once you're chatting with someone to say like, hey, this is the thing I'm into. And so sometimes now I'm just like, fuck it. No shame. I'm just going to like write that on my profile. And when people write to me and they're like, hey, that thing you wrote, I'll I want to do that. Then I'm like, let's chat. And I'm like much more eager to get
00:57:04
Speaker
into it with them. And it's like, why the fuck not? If that's what I want to do, why not just be upfront about it? Yeah. Totally. And the other thing that we talked about was enabling community. And this is a broader, almost more philosophical part of
00:57:21
Speaker
The way that I view thought experiment, I think of thought experiment as a steward for a community and community is about enrichment, which I think I draw a distinction between that and capitalism, which I think is about extraction. And so the way that manifests on thought experiment is that we're a data safe and privacy safe space. So not having ads and not selling data to data brokers, you know, one, I think it's just, it really should be table stakes.
00:57:47
Speaker
for anyone in this industry because this is sensitive information right like it has no shouldn't be sold to data brokers unfortunately it's it's not the norm the norm is very much the opposite and so it's really just to say that.
00:58:02
Speaker
enabling community is sort of like, that's the highest thing. And so that transcends a lot of different dimensions. And, you know, we're trying to take that seriously, listen to our community. And, you know, the economic structure of our platform reflects that. Yeah, wasn't there a thing where Grindr like released like HIV status to someone and yeah, to some company was terrible.
00:58:31
Speaker
Yeah, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal recently about the data selling aspects of that business. And it's not just them. And I just don't think it's appropriate. And I worked in that, the advertising technology space, for some years. And that really informed my perspective on this of like, no, no, no, no.
00:58:54
Speaker
Um, you know, as a general matter, I think, you know, our data is our own, but particularly in an area where, you know, society stigma still exists. And so, uh, you know, we view this as being really sensitive and, you know, we want to be a good stewards of our
00:59:11
Speaker
Yeah. So if you're not selling data or having ads, how do you monetize? Is it like a fee to use the platform? Yeah, the app is totally free to use to message, to connect with folks. But if you want to use premium features, so for instance, if you want to use the filtering function to only connect with people who are
00:59:32
Speaker
into a specific kink or all these different sort of dimensions, then there's a premium service, which we've tried to price fairly. It's at a discount to a lot of other apps out there because we want to get to what we think is a fair take rate, fair exchange for folks within the community and to keep the lights on, basically.
00:59:58
Speaker
Cool. Cool. So I'm curious, on the demisexual spectrum, that's not something that is talked about on apps a lot of like, how much emotional connection do you want before us? It's often just about sex. And so I don't know, what's your experience with that and how does it play into the app?
01:00:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's actually really, that's a great question. You know, I know that for myself, having a level of connectivity, like I want to, I want that my partner, like at the end of the day, for me, what is most important to me is pleasing my partner. That is very much core to who I am.
01:00:39
Speaker
It's as core as my sexuality. That's my thing. For me, part of that is a level of connection to that person. I need to know them. That is core for my own experience. But you bring up an interesting point. That's another dimension that we could be capturing in the app environment that we're not today.
01:01:04
Speaker
Yeah. Right. I mean, the demisexual spectrum and the ace spectrum, it's like there can be places to connect for everyone along these spectrums, but you don't see that much right now. Yeah. Awesome. So if people are interested in this, where can they find the app? Where can they find you guys? Or are you on social media? What should they look for?
01:01:30
Speaker
You can find Hetero on the Apple App Store or Google Play Store by searching for Hetero. It's spelled again, H-E-A-D-E-R-O. Or you can find us on our website, which is www.hetero.com. Or you can find us on almost all social media platforms with a handle at Hetero App, H-E-A-D-E-R-O-A-P-P, with no spaces or dashes or anything like that. Cool.
01:01:57
Speaker
Awesome. Well, thanks for coming to Two Bye Guys, Steven. This is a really interesting conversation and like all the stuff, kind of stuff we talk about and you're like putting it out there in the world and trying to make real change. So good luck and everyone go check out Hetero and have some oral sex or whatever else you like.
01:02:21
Speaker
Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of Two Bye, guys. Apologies for some of those audio issues, if you even noticed them. We had a hardware issue while recording this, and we had to go back and record a couple things over. Hopefully you didn't even notice. But if you did, that's why. Thank you again to my guest, Steven Quatterer. I hope you're all having a nice bisexual visibility month, and we'll be back soon with our next episode featuring Dr. Mimi Hua. Stay tuned.
01:02:50
Speaker
2 by Guys is produced and edited by me, Rob Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman, our music is by Ross Mincer, we are supported by the Gotham, and we are part of the Zencaster Creator Network. Use promo code 2 by Guys to get 30% off your first three months of Zencaster. Thanks for listening to 2 by Guys.