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Episode 62 - ADHD and Oppositional Defiant Disorder
62 Plays4 months ago
Paul and Martin (co-mayors of ADHDville) get into an interesting ADHD co-morbidity, Oppositional Defiance Disorder. Let's just say its complicated but we tell you what it is and some helpful advice! Enjoy!
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Put quill to paper and send us an email at: ADHDville@gmail.com
ADHD/Focus music from Martin (AKA Thinking Fish)
Theme music was written by Freddie Philips and played by Martin West. All other music by Martin West.
Please remember: This is an entertainment podcast about ADHD and does not substitute for individualized advice from qualified health professionals.
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Transcript
Introduction to ADHDville and Oppositional Defiance
00:00:00
Speaker
Back in the room. Back in the room. And if you are watching us on a YouTube, you'll notice I'm back in my old regular room rather than being somewhere else, which I have been for six weeks or so. Yeah. Anyway, so. OK. Have you ever been labeled as as as as difficult or told you argue for the sake of arguing? And if you have ADHD, you might know this all too well.
00:00:30
Speaker
Today we are, Paul and I, we are going to dive into oppositional defiance. What it is, why it happens, and how it's connected to ADHD. So, welcome to ADHDville.
00:01:11
Speaker
On this one I have a Should we try and roll? A short white Adidas sock on. Yes. On the other one, i I can just tell by the thickness that it's not the same. So I don't even have to look. I mean, the it is shortened and white, right but but um yeah yeah, not the same. Not the same. Odd socks on. Okay. There you go.
Disclaimer on Entertainment and Advice
00:01:39
Speaker
Okay, so hello, I'm Paul Thompson. I was diagnosed with the combined ADH and the D a fistful of months ago. In fact, I think it's like a 12, over 12 months ago, right? Yeah, yeah, 13. Right. And I'm Martin Weston. I was diagnosed with the combined ADHD poo poo platter in 2013.
00:02:01
Speaker
Yeah. So we're just two mates who coincidence or not. After 39 years of friendship discovery with we're co ADHD is hurrah. no It's really poor to say this is an entertainment podcast, okay, about ah adult ADHD and does not substitute for individualized advice from qualified health professionals. No, so don't take any advice from us. He says going to a deeper tone without any reason,
00:02:28
Speaker
We're just here to kind of all inclusive ADHD pulpheads. We're here for everyone, including your doppelgangers, your alter egos, your buddy doubles, your chaperones, and even your best buddies. Still here, congratulations. You've already won a badge for for your staying power. Then grab your jet packs, petalos, space hoppers, and any other transportation methods, and let us take you to ADHDville, a veterinary town that we've created in our mind.
00:03:00
Speaker
where we like to explore different parts of the A, the D, the H and the D. And we start off as always here in the Town Hall in the Mayor's Office where we the joint mayors of ADHD will take care of business and just looking at my agenda.
ODD Acronym and Humorous Detour
00:03:14
Speaker
We are talking about ADHD and Oppositional Defiant Disorder, ODD.
00:03:19
Speaker
Odd.
00:03:22
Speaker
ah said Odd. odd it's ah old it's an Odd. It's an acronym, isn't it? Because the acronym has to be a combination of letters that actually make a word. So it's an acronym. Yes. yes So where?
00:03:39
Speaker
where are we going to go is the question. Are we going to the X something, a mystery place? Yes, we are going to location X, location X, mystery, location for our discussion. And the reason is because obviously with oppositional defiance, one of the things is that someone will go, let's go to the coffee shop and you'll go, no, I don't want to go to the coffee shop, I want to go to the fire station or whatever. So just to save us from being... I'm going to go to the cemetery and smoke fags. Nice. you know yeah How goth of you and listen to the Smiths. um we are We are going to... So totally to avoid any oppositional defiance, we're going to go to the two location next. Of which i don't ive I have no idea what the theme song is. So anyway, let's bring the car around.
00:04:37
Speaker
and jump in the car and go to mystery location.
00:04:45
Speaker
Oh wow, okay. Mystery sound. Okay, how long is it? Oh it's okay, it's not too long. Is this short? That sounded emotional.
00:05:02
Speaker
okay ah so It this feels, I've written up here, Martin, because this is like a big comorbidity thing, you know, with ADHD. I was wondering, it's almost like, it's maybe too late now, or maybe not. We should have like a comorbidity horn or a sound that we should have. like I was thinking like a glockenspiel. So when it's a comorbidity. We sound, maybe I should buy,
00:05:31
Speaker
buy off amazon i'll probably after this recording here so i'll go on to amazon buy the most expensive glockenspiel that i can find wow yeah but anyway yeah it's so com-orbidities a-morbidity it's a biggie and it's a tricky one it's a tricky little number this one it is this seems to me yeah so uh yeah so what is upper up as oppositional defiance disorder i mean it's kind of I think it's it's like a collection of the symptoms.
Understanding Oppositional Defiant Disorder Symptoms
00:06:02
Speaker
it it isn't It isn't necessarily a formal diagnosis. It's like a pattern of resisting authority, feeling frustrated um ah for frustrated by external can conduct control. So that's like
00:06:19
Speaker
people telling you to do things. And then that kind of brings up a bunch of oh ah more contrary... already I'm already getting nervous. I'm just saying it. I know. And then that can kind of... but So how do you know whether you have it? Well, I mean, it can kind of come up in a whole bunch of ways um you know it means that you can you know you you may often or argue with family members and co-workers and actively vitify or refuse to comply with rules and laws
00:06:54
Speaker
and and deliberately annoy people, which is an interesting one which um which I will come back to. Blame others for their their mistakes and their behaviours. That's another interesting one. Easily annoyed by others, get angry and stressful, spiteful and vindictive.
00:07:15
Speaker
you know yes um I've also got, because some, because there's a lot of confusion, Martin, because one thing people may not know when listening to our podcast, we actually do, us our research that we do is very ah ah very much, we do separately, and we kind of hope that they kind of merge as a kind of a happy accident when we do the podcast, literally, as we're doing it. There's a lot of confusion about this subject. There's also,
00:07:44
Speaker
Confused about, um some people suggest is um there's the justice sensitivity thing that's very prevalent in the ADHD community. Whether you could add that, the list in reality to the oppositional defiant disorder. Yeah.
00:08:05
Speaker
And weirdly, Martin, i kind of like i kind of so I kind of got that list pretty much as you've got it, okay, about how that could show up, ODD could show up. I've got a list, actually the same number of things as bullet points under justice sensitivity. And they're really similar. I mean, there's a hell of a crossover.
00:08:29
Speaker
Really, because we've got frequent anger. So this is specifically to justice sensitivity. There's eight of them, just as they were for the other ones. so Frequent anger and resentment and victimization, fear of future victimization, indignation about the injustice done to others, strong drive to restore justice, perceiving injustice where others do not,
00:08:51
Speaker
hope this hopelessness about large-scale issues facing the world, feelings of worthlessness when unfairly treated, rumination, Martin, about inequality and injustice. So it's like really like a lot of crossovers there.
00:09:07
Speaker
I would also add onto there, if you have if you have autism or you're like autistic and ADHD, sometimes it's not even, you know, this thing of coming over
Autistic Traits vs. Defiance
00:09:21
Speaker
as being a difficult person. Sometimes it's just because the autistic side of you wants clarification on something. It's just asking questions because you want to know what the rules are, what the guidelines are, what parameters are. They just have, yeah we just have questions and then that can be perceived by other people as you being annoying and a difficult person. When actually all you do is it's it's just you you just, you just want, you just want to, you know. Alice.
00:09:58
Speaker
Our last guest that she had on Alice, she she said that a lot of our colleagues and friends that Cusa are of being confrontational and especially at school, I think she mentioned school, and she said, no, I just want some answers, you know, just want some answers that make some sense to me. Yeah, so that was a nice chat. I think that was episode 58. So go and check out yeah that lovely chat with Alice.
00:10:26
Speaker
Yeah. so Yeah. I mean, it can be like road rage, verbal ah abuse, you know, like all authority figures travel at work. Yeah, it can be quite. um Also, you know, this this thing about co-morbidities, it also seems to like share a lot of space with rejection sensitivity disorder. yeah is well it they they They feel like brother and sister, they feel like they're very, they they almost feel like twins. But also people pleasing, because one part of me that was like rage, right? And the other part of me just doesn't want to upset people. And what the hell is that all about? I mean, that which makes it even worse.
00:11:10
Speaker
Right. I mean, just insane. Right. I was I when I was walking Eddie this this morning, I was I was thinking and and and I don't actually remember where I came to. So I'm hoping as I talk that it'll it'll pop up in my head. But in my in my pie chart of of what my people pleasing was, there was a slice. I went, oh, yeah, there's a slice, which is which is this oppositional Okay. di di diff defines Oh, I know why. It's because I know I'm like that. So I know I have oppositional defiance and I've known it for so long that I actively work against it all the time. right so if so there so like So I overcome that by being yeah
00:12:01
Speaker
extra accommodating and going along with someone else, knowing inside. the opposition I'm feeling. so So if they say, right, well, let's go to to this cafe and like, and for some reason, I just feel oppositional. Defiance that I can feel that feeling bubbling up in me. And I go, oh, yeah, that's my opposite. Defiance. I will just ignore that. And there will be people and I will people please to kind of compensate for that. There you go. Yeah.
00:12:35
Speaker
and then And then, I don't know if you get this, but I feel like a shame towards myself for for being genuine. It's like, why didn't I just tell them to, you know, to go and, you know, screw themselves, you know? Well, well, the thing this is ah is, I don't always know where, say I don't want to go to this cafe. I don't necessarily know where that's coming from.
00:13:00
Speaker
You know, if it's, if I think it's coming from oppositional defiance, then I'll just go, I'll just, or, or, or some sort of rejection, sensitivity sort of thing. I'll just try and ignore it. Right. And go, no, let's just go to the cafe. I'm being stupid. yeah that There's a, there's a couple of angry brain cells in my head that are just going, no, no, no, no, no. I'll just ignore them. But sometimes.
00:13:24
Speaker
There can be something in you that there's ah that that there's a reason why you don't want to go out and you've got like anxiety. It's something else. And then your people please and you go to the thing, but then you ignore your own internal feelings because you don't really know what they are half the time. Is it oppositional defiance? It was really confusing.
00:13:47
Speaker
There's another thing in the mix. I feel stressed just talking about it. I'm clenching my buttocks. They're going to implode in a minute. If you hear a strange sound, it's my buttocks imploding. There's another factor, Martin.
Authority Issues and Personal Stories
00:14:01
Speaker
Go on. There's another factor. Sometimes it's got nothing to do with ADHD or any other comorbidity. Sometimes, in my case, I had a really strict father.
00:14:13
Speaker
Mm hmm. So my um I have a real problem. I've always had a problem with authority figures. I know, Paul. Yes. I know you. Yes. Always have done your your oppositional difference game is strong. Yes. Thank you. You sounded like Yoda. Oh, the opposite. Strong you are with oppositional defiance disorder.
00:14:45
Speaker
That's funny. Oh, do you do chapel walkie? No, she do you do? No, not chapel walkie. Chewbacca. That's about the best I can do.
00:15:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's shocking me, Martin. you sound It sounds like you come from a ah place of um knowledge, Martin. Well, yeah. You know what? I'm just thinking of this kind of like... um'm i'm I'm feeling so tense that I'm going to have to get it out by doing Yoda impressions. It's like some sort of Star Wars stem release. Yeah. Yeah. is ah well Those that don't know it, Martin and I worked together and I... I mean, I've got throughout my pressure, that's where the most obvious, my most obvious pattern of oppositional defiance has been. It's been through my professional career, and burning bridges and, you know, pissing bosses off and being pretty bloody, you know, belligerent, if I'm honest.
00:15:57
Speaker
accused of being arrogant accused of being a loose cannon a loose cannon is the classic obviously yes that's a loose cannon poor loose cannon thompson And of course, you know, be, be like, I have really strong, have a strong visual imagination. I could see literally a loose cannon in my mind, in my mind's eye, just going off. Yeah. Yeah. But.
00:16:28
Speaker
so yeah i'm thinking loose cannon sidebar must be on the ships you know like on the royal navy ships or ships at sea a war galleons the yeah the the the cannons were tied down with a rope right so it would fire and then the recoil go back but it was held in place by by two ropes but if something happened to the ropes then the cannon would actually come could come adrift on the deck and then you've got this dangerous, you have the ships going up and down, you're firing, and all of a sudden you've got this cannon which must weigh a ton, just flying around the deck, maiming as it goes. Maybe, yeah with cannon fodder.
00:17:16
Speaker
can't afford a light left right and I feel like that must be the end the etymology entomology I can never quite work out which of those two it is but that must be the the origins of that I will I will wager this crisp 20 pound note that I'm holding for looks to got the queen's head on it yeah got the key wager it I'll come and collect it Martin spend it quick o so Yeah. Um, so where were we? Yes. So we've got, or we kind of defined, uh, what, define what, um, how ODA ODD shows up and you probably, you know, written in our ADHD community, they're probably like thinking, Oh, sudden. Certain so boxes are being ticked as you go down that list, right?
00:18:12
Speaker
but of of the ODD ah trait, so often losing temper, bit touchy, ah easily annoyed, often angry and resentful, often argues with authority figures, ah often actively defies or refuses to comply request from authority figures, okay, often deliberately annoys others, often blames others,
00:18:40
Speaker
of the road mistakes and misbehaviour, that's a horrible one, has been spiteful of, indicative at least within the last six months, okay, last but not least, particularly sensitive to unfairness.
00:18:52
Speaker
jesus yeah Because apparently that's when it simply becomes a disorder, for six months it's just like a pattern. all right exact because that can feel I mean, I tend to feel it when I'm scrolling on TikTok or some other social media. Someone has a point of view. I will automatically take up not necessarily the opposite, but some other slightly off to one side point of view that isn't that point of view. Right. and Oh, yes.
00:19:28
Speaker
you know yeah it's is You know, and I have to stop myself because I kind of feel like, you know, I kind of feel like, ah you know, like when people misspelled there and there and there. Right. you know Yes. And then they misspell it. And I'm like, yeah. I'm like, you know, go to school. Jesus. but What them and those is quite an option. What were you doing, in Clark? You know, like I think, no, stop that. What are we doing? Back off. Jesus Christ. Yeah. I'm just being annoying. I get a punctuation. I get grammar rage.
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah, my wife is very much, I think she, if you remember, falls into the, oh god, we were having a discussion last night, we were watching some trashy Hallmark film, which we do. So one of the things that we do every fall Autumn is is all these Hallmark films. Come on, you know the ones you know where you know someone from the big city comes down to the quaint little Town and then there's a struggling business and they help it out and then they hate each other at first and they fall in love Yes bollocks right and nothing is is is that we shout at the TV and tell everyone that they're complete idiots like all the way through and
00:20:47
Speaker
and now And we were watching one last night, which was it it was set in Scotland, right? ah And and it was the lead and someone referred to the guy in the big house as the Laird, right? Which which I think is like Scottish for Lord, I would suspect. I think so. Yeah. And and my my my wife is going, I wouldn't I wouldn't call him led.
00:21:17
Speaker
I would just just call him Mr. mr Smith, not Led Smith. No, no. i'm but So she was getting very oppositional about using his title. Led is a designation that applies to an owner of a large, long-established Scottish estate.
00:21:38
Speaker
Okay. Land owner. Land owner. Okay. That's what it means. All right. So, so my, so my, my wife would find that even more pretentious that they've given us a title just because they got some land. I mean, I've got some, I've got a third of an acre. It isn't big. It's tiny. I'm a Laird now. Laird West. Call me. I get I got four times as well. I've stopped we were talking just before we came on the podcast. I've stopped. I'm like, I've stopped watching a whole bunch of like traditional news media channels. um Because I just got into rage about often be like,
00:22:20
Speaker
ah my girlfriend would be looking at me and be like, what are you getting angry about now? I get angry with the freaking editors that decide to prioritise, I don't know, someone who's lost or taught us, to prioritising that before a news item about something where, you know, some bunch of people have died or something. And it's like the injustice of, yeah, the injustice of, who is that editor? it ah decided that that item should go before that item is it great i've just stopped i've just stopped now just it's like okay paul i yeah how are you on like road rage because because of because i don't i know that it's a it's a something that's popped up with you and it's something that that i don't actually weirdly have have much of. In fact, when i was first when i first the and I first dated my wife, I was driving around and then someone pulled right out in front of me and I didn't say anything. I was like, okay, that's weird. and She was like,
00:23:28
Speaker
anyone else I would know would be shouting at that guy. I was like, no, it's like, it doesn't, it just, I don't know whether it's because there was so much insulation between my rage and the outside world. It never quite gets through. So you don't get rage in the car.
00:23:48
Speaker
No, no. Okay. no ah Well, you don't live in Italy. And the Italians are really aggressive to really aggressive drivers.
00:24:01
Speaker
Yeah, they haven't met night me, mate. i am i am yeah i um and that One of the things with with ADHD is aggressive with driving.
00:24:12
Speaker
like that ah Yeah. um Although my son said that after I'd lived in three for three years in Palermo, he said that my driving style had changed. It had to. otherwise It was like, kill or be killed.
00:24:31
Speaker
Exactly. You have to be really decisive. You can't be timid. You can't put your nose out there. You have to put the whole car in the way of the others as sport. It's like you see half a car's gap and you go for it and you just hope that the car just lets you in. Otherwise, everyone is fucked.
00:24:57
Speaker
I once, I'm not kidding you, this was actually Napoli. ah once was certain ah I was on a one-way street that merged with another one-way street merging into one street, okay. like A car, a little car with a man inside it.
00:25:15
Speaker
got slightly ahead of me to the two merging roads, stopped in front of me, wound down his window and gestured with his eyes that he had a gun and that if I if i didn't let him ah if i didn't give him um ah the right of way he was going to put one between my eyes.
00:25:36
Speaker
Oh, nice one. And I literally looked behind thinking, is he looking at me? And he was, he stared me out. You're not allowed padding to bear to with his neighbor. He stared me out and gestured, gestured that he had something under his car seat. If I like i felt different didn't play ball with him. That's funny.
00:26:00
Speaker
I was and i was i was in a in a very similar thing where there was this cut, two lanes merging into one, me and this other car, we were getting, we were like literally side by side getting closer and closer and closer to the point, right you know. Oh, so similar to mine in Napoli. Very similar. um ah They wound down their window and said, hey, you know,
00:26:24
Speaker
let us through go over and we don't wound down ours. And I said, this is a hire car. We don't care. You said that's him. Yes. That's brilliant. Love it.
00:26:40
Speaker
Love it. That's great. Good line. Even if you don't have a high car. Yeah. Or buy a Land Rover. Do you remember the old Land Rover you used to have? I had. Yes. Like a tank. Yeah. Everyone used to just get out of your way. Because the whole tank gives off this vibe of he doesn't care about, you know, scratches or dents or anything. Everyone gets out of your way.
00:27:08
Speaker
yeah How about oppositional people, you know, like... um but because we're talking about figures of all authority I've actually kind of I've i've become more oppositionally defined as I've got older is as far as I think that's quite common and this is like the per the police is probably the only people you know were any anyone in the law area I will be
00:27:44
Speaker
very i'm right reverential two so my because I don't want any of that nonsense. But anyone else, I'm like, i know i especially if you work in the corporate.
00:27:58
Speaker
area, right? If you have a job and, you you know, and the corporate jobs are very hierarchical, right?
Defiance Against Power Plays
00:28:04
Speaker
Manages, you know, CEOs. But I am, I think I would actually say that I i don't give a crap whether you're the CEO or you're the guy who empties the the trash cans. like I'm totally blind to hierarchy. You're all the same. And if you try and assert your authority on me,
00:28:27
Speaker
in a way that is not professional. I don't mind kind of going, right, Martin, here's the task. here's yeah Here's what I want you to do. Got it, got it, got it. Absolutely brilliant. But but if they try and us assert their authority in a way that is more like, well, I want you to work over the concept.
00:28:53
Speaker
I want you to work over the weekend on this. And I go, well, why? And they say, well, because I'm your boss and I'm telling you. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, fuck you then. Yeah. yeah yeah no i That's just, that's just office politics. Is that just people making maneuvers? That's power play. That's people making a power play. Yeah. And that's where I know yeah you're, you're trying to use your, your, your position in this hierarchy to kind of know.
00:29:23
Speaker
Oh God, and how many times have you had that? So where where does your where does it show up for you, Martin, with, you know, do you have a problem with authority figures? um Like I just said, if it's if the only, yeah,
00:29:41
Speaker
Yes, but no, I just I don't mind the authority figures and and if they're acting in their in their capacity and I kind i see it's it's like okay, if if there's a park ranger who's telling me to put out a fire or go and walk on this particular trial and not go over there, and that's fine. Like I don't I don't mind because they're just doing their job. But if as I said, if they're I don't, so I don't automatically look at authority figures and go, I'm in defiance of you. It's just, if they kind of, i if I feel like they're using their position to push me around when it's not necessary. Who was it said, a psychologist says said nothing worse than a man with a badge? I don't know, but yeah, it makes sense. so Something that makes them.
00:30:35
Speaker
Yeah, there's a lot of things on that list that does not resonate for me. Like, I'm not one who like blames other people. I'm quite happy to, if I make a mistake, if ah if I had like an an idiot, I would put my hand up. And I'm not someone, actually, I i actually really um have a problem with people that always point fingers at other people before themselves. I have a massive problem with that, you know. So that's the fairness thing, you know, it goes as the fairness thing. There's a lot of those, but there's a lot of things on that on that list of ODD that I'm not particularly... um The one that I kind of find interesting is
00:31:18
Speaker
to deliberately annoy other people. oh right Which is interesting because one thing about ADHD is you have a like a low yeah if you're if if your dopamine gets low, one way that you can get dopamine is by is by having an having an having and argument or pushing someone or like prodding them um yeah um and seeing what their reaction is.
00:31:51
Speaker
ah yeah I do do something actually, it's come to mind now. When I walk in across the pedestrian crossing, right, because I know how impatient Italian drivers are, I will walk fairly slowly.
00:32:09
Speaker
I take my sweet time um because I i know that and it it happens quite regularly that literally I'm halfway across and literally they've like scraping my backside with their. All right. You know, hang on a second. ah Yeah, you have to like shift so they get past. I noticed that the laces on my shoes could be could be ret retired. and It's like bending down in the road, retie them. Yeah.
00:32:38
Speaker
Switch to Switch to you in the car and there's someone else walking slowly across the yeah the separate crossing you're going Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep moving! To be fair, I mean, I'm describing it in that way for comic effect. I know. But I'll say, yeah. I just walk across normally, but I am looking out for it. I'm looking out for those assholes. And I will... I've done that. I've put myself in actually in quite difficult situations. Oh, yeah. There was like... People just don't get it.
00:33:18
Speaker
Right. I mean, i but i was ah when I lived in Brooklyn, um there was like there was beeping going on outside of the house for hours of the apartment. I was like, what the hell is going on? And there's just like a whole something that happened somewhere down the road. It's a whole row of cars, right? yeah All just backed up.
00:33:37
Speaker
I'm like, and there's one car in particular, which is right outside my house, leaning on the horns, just really giving it the boom. And I'm like, you can't go anywhere. yeah so So I went out and I stood in front of their car. I was like, right you can't go anywhere.
00:33:58
Speaker
get out of the way and then all the cars started to move right behind me and I was still standing there going nice saying see look this is what happens this is what happens but yeah lovely I'm loving that I'm paid to watch that piece of video yeah there we go okay I don't know that I've never seen that side of you mr west you see you know what it's just I know because it's like I am, I am quite, I am more up and down than I think people realise, I think. Yeah, ah i' quite um quite ah yeah I'm yeah, I am sensitive. And yeah, I did once get me into trouble. I was once, this is in Turin,
00:34:48
Speaker
and um because you can never be sure like that guy in the car that you obstructed right that you stood in front of you you he could be a kind of a psycho right oh yeah i know and i did come i get i did got myself into trouble once i was actually on my birthday And the only reason why I didn't end up in an accident in an emergency right in a hospital so was because I i i basic basically ah ah thought it's my birthday. I cannot ah don't want to finish up with ah you know with a you know a hole in my head.
00:35:25
Speaker
all right it's basically happy personally there was the bullet ah is huley This guy went into a fit of rage because I criticized him because he didn't thank me for giving him some space on the on the sidewalk.
00:35:40
Speaker
on the pathway, right? Because there was some like roadworks and there was only enough space for one person to get through for about 30 meters. And I waited for him to come through, right? With my dog, I was waiting for him. And he passed by, he said nothing. And I said, you're very welcome. And he went absolutely ballistic. And he had a full bottle of water in his hands and he threw it at my head.
00:36:09
Speaker
Oh wow. Like he threw it, it wasn't like, you know, a lob. Make sure that starts. Exactly, exactly. Because it flew past your head. Yeah.
00:36:24
Speaker
And he just went into a complete rage and I understood. So, I mean, I could go and the story goes on a bit, but you never know, you know, that can get you into trouble. It can. A bit more careful now, Martin. All right. Yeah. Sometimes you kind of go, you know what? It's not worth it. Not worth it.
00:36:44
Speaker
ah I've got, ah is there any else you want to say before I get on to some of the causes of of oppositional defiance? this good car putman center Yeah, I mean, a lot of a lot of my defiance is, I think, it's hard, is what I was saying, it right, the top of this podcast. It's hard to define some some of these things because there's a lot of merging and crossover crossovering and ah things with other other things. like
00:37:16
Speaker
um Sometimes I don't want't know whether I'm just like a ah like oppositional and defined because of you know because I am, or just because of just pure frustration.
00:37:27
Speaker
of, of having ADHD and having to deal with, you know, neurotypicals all the time, you know, and being feeling misunderstood.
Critique of Societal Passiveness
00:37:35
Speaker
It's just like, where does, you know, where does it begin and end? beginner I know, right? Because I'm sure there are people out there screaming like, it's also yeah It's also a characteristic of of over traumas, right? So yeah feels like it feels like it's wrapped up in that trauma risk response. So it's not just ADHD. It's not even just autism. i thought even but If you can't be angry now, when you can you be angry, you know. The worst for me is being passive. I think the enemy of society is passiveness.
00:38:15
Speaker
Oh, wait. We've taken a sharp left philosophical turn into civilisations.
00:38:27
Speaker
Basically what I'm saying is I get in a rage about people being passive. Yeah, I do. I do.
00:38:39
Speaker
um If someone behaves badly, even though if id know it could be dangerous, I can't i can't be passive. That's right. So so in conclusion in conclusion, you get annoyed by people being passive and you get annoyed by people being angry.
00:38:58
Speaker
at you? ah No, no, don't get no people being angry. Well, it depends. You know, I think some people like during COVID, everyone was like on the streets complaining about, you know, the green cards and stuff like that. Or, you know, in Europe, um ah green cards, where they should be. Yeah, there was a thing called a green card. It basically gave you like, um limited permission to, you know, to, uh, move around if with, fileright visit, visit a store, get some food. Right. Yeah. If you've had the jabs, if you'd had the, uh, Oh, okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Vaccines. And if you hadn't had the vaccines, you weren't allowed into cinemas. You weren't able to blah, blah, blah, blah. Right.
00:39:44
Speaker
I think, oh, okay, all right, okay, made the point. But you think, where are they now? All those people when now, we should be protesting more than ever. they Where are they all? When it affects their their lives.
00:39:59
Speaker
um yeah a Yeah. So, yeah. So, you know, like if you have, you know, complex PTSD or, I mean, there's so many, so many other trauma things that actually this oppositional defiant disorder kind of like seems to be part of. So it's, yeah, it is this kind of weird little collection of kinds of behavior. Yeah, sure. It's a very rowdy party.
00:40:31
Speaker
causes, which which which does bring more to causes. So yeah, I kind of i would i would argue that you know that ah that as we just said, ah a know yeah it could be from from all kinds of neurodivergent and PTSD and trauma responses.
00:40:52
Speaker
But also, ah ODD has a strong ah urge genetic genetic component. So so if you're like more like us in your ADHD, or even you know alde autistic in ADHD, it can run in families.
00:41:11
Speaker
yeah um Yeah. But then that can conflicts with, for example, in many countries, including the US, ODD isn't actually officially recognized, generally considered to be people that are basically a result of bad parenting.
00:41:28
Speaker
oh you know like Jordan jordaned peace Pizza would talk about ADHD, people not having enough playtime, just nonsense. Even though there's a lot of research suggesting the complete opposite that, as you said Martin, it is genetic, there's a lot of evidence of it.
00:41:48
Speaker
Right, yeah, so it can definitely come from our
Parenting and Genetic Factors in ODD
00:41:52
Speaker
genetics. you know no And actually, when I was doing my my research in it, you'll notice that it's almost like you have to wade through pages of yeah ODD in kids.
00:42:04
Speaker
first. Exactly. Like that, that's, that's where it pops up first. And that's where most of the kind of chit chat and the online stuff is, is about a whole load. How do you get your kid to, um, to not, you know, to actually behave like, well, you know, like that's interesting on that, on that subject, they're saying, there's a lot of evidence that a lot of the children that actually do have ADHD and or ODD, they're suffering even more trauma because their parents don't know how to deal with the ADHD and the ODD and then get accused of just being badly behaved children, you know.
00:42:46
Speaker
it's It's a big mess. a really big messy subject yes Yeah. Uh, you know, and other overlaps with ADHD, you know, impulsivity. So, you know, we're quite impulsive. So, so, so we might say what we're thinking and that kind of yeah comes across as quite oppositional. Emotional dysregulation is a big one.
00:43:11
Speaker
for me, um because I think um when it kind of comes to, and I kind guess, we can I can jump ah into like what can can we do? Well, one of the things that we can do is is regulate our emotions. So I find that meds, for me at least, help with that. Like my, when I'm not on meds, my my emotions, and and and I get triggered so much more easily.
00:43:41
Speaker
and okay But when I'm on meds, I ah find that i'm it's harder for me to to kind of, down that oppositional defiance doesn't kind of come up so much. Yeah. It's an interesting thing. so It was said that by one person that the vast majority of people with ODD also have ADHD, but the opposite isn't true. if you can You can have ADHD and not have ODD.
00:44:11
Speaker
All right. Interesting. and the other Yeah. The other interesting thing was um the list that we went through at the top of the podcast, a lot of it's kind of quite extreme stuff. And actually, um I was listening to a podcast last week about a lady who she's a psychologist and counselor in prisons.
00:44:32
Speaker
And she was saying, and i at one point, I mean, I won't go too much because it's a long subject, fascinating, absolutely fascinating subject, working for years, like 20 years in prison, she said 90, 90, not 90, 90% of prisoners have ADHD. And they're getting no medication for it. ah But the ones who have had medication have transformed their lives. 90% of prisoners in yeah UK prisoners have ADHD.
00:45:00
Speaker
And things are starting to happening on it. There's a lot of police say, Crikey, we can resolve a lot of our crime if we um looked into this. And she said she's so she barely has a day free for the the next next year from all the police forces in the UK that want to talk to her about it. So so something's happening in that side of things. Oppositional defines prisoners.
00:45:26
Speaker
you know, crime, and you know, it's like the topping the severe end of the scale, but yeah. Other things that you can can do, obviously, to will be avoid burnout, which I know that, you know, like, we we should all be trying to avoid burnout. um But, you know, it still comes at us. um Because that's when the sort of emotional i ah regulation is an all time low. So just being triggered by stuff and just it would just, it would just make that a lot, a lot worse. Yeah. Um, also, you know, alcohol and other things like that, that's not going to, ah you know, if you are easily triggered, you may be going through, if you're like me at the moment, you're going through difficult time personally, you know, economically and work wise, you know,
00:46:21
Speaker
and The temptation is to reach, you know, for an extra beer or two. And it's actually, that can, you know, make you even more defined, more, you know, more angry. So, right you know, I mean, that doesn't take a genius to work out, does it really?
00:46:37
Speaker
like therapy is always a good op option. You know, I guess it comes under the don't do it alone heading, you know, so always always a communication with with the other people.
00:46:52
Speaker
is always going to be key. Right. So if, yeah, it's like my wife and knows me. So, so in the middle of a, so if the, if the conversation starts to get a bit heated, she'll get, you're doing that thing where, you know, you're, you're doing this thing. And I go, okay. Oh yeah. I guess I am. All right. Back off, back off reverse, beep, beep, beep, beep, break turn. Yeah.
00:47:23
Speaker
Okay. Yeah.
Consulting ADHD Specialists
00:47:25
Speaker
That's just one thing that came to mind, Martin, you know, in the States, are there such things as like, um, psychologists that are accredited by ADHD associations or is it random?
00:47:38
Speaker
No, no. So okay ah you would go to a specific ADHD counselor or therapist or psychoanalyst, no, who who specializes in, so you you can have ones that specialize in all kinds of different things. so Yeah, yeah. Autism ones or yeah, yeah, loads. You talked about getting counseling, but I've heard of people that I've just gone to, you know, maybe a psychologist that is convenient to them on a practical level, but sometimes don't have any ADHD experience at all. all can be no right for wireing Why would you do that to yourself? Yeah, I know.
00:48:25
Speaker
I know that actually um people there are still a lot of people that just trust blanketly, you know, generally trust psychologists to know it all. But I think it's specialist and better to seek out someone who on their website, their specifically yeah specific experience.
00:48:42
Speaker
Yes. All right. Yes. Cool.
Core of Oppositional Defiance: Feeling Heard
00:48:46
Speaker
All right. Well, my last thought is oppositional defiance isn't about being difficult. It's about needing to feel heard and valued. um Yes.
00:48:58
Speaker
My last thought is fuck you. Fuck you oppositional defiance. I'm going to take you on. I'm going to take you on and all your friends. And all your bastard friends. All your bastard friends. Come and get it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. um Yes. On that stupid note. Let's jump back into the car and we'll head to the post office. Wow.
00:49:32
Speaker
Yes, we're in the post office, Martin, again. Oh, I know. It's so drab here. It always is. It's a bit drab. It hasn't been redecorated since the 70s. Easily. It still smells of tabs and, you know,
00:49:47
Speaker
Right. And even when they did redecorate it in the 70s, they, they, they still pulled out a design guide from 1953. So, you know, even when it was redone, it was old. Yeah. I think since then, you just, someone's just put some new, like, um, what's that called in English?
00:50:14
Speaker
Hmm. Here we go. Pause hunting for the English word. Pause hunting for the... Oh, no, it's gone. Forget it. He's more Italian than he's English. Yeah. Oh, isn't that bad? As he's got bad. When the yeah joke is is funny in in in Italian, but then... Yeah, exactly. ...lies in English. No, he's not even funny in Italian.
00:50:39
Speaker
ah Anyway, post office, you're going to say, yes, your line. Yes. um your your Your feedback is really, really important to us, really vital to us. And any of your comments that you send us might be featured in a future podcast like these ones. Go on.
Listener's Confusion: Anchovies vs. Capers
00:50:58
Speaker
ah from M. Peach. M. Peach. I'm really bad at reading this out. M. Peach. M. Piaka. M. Peach. 8316. She said she's a light late diagnosed or DHD. And she says, I have a lifelong anchovies versus capers confusion. Even though I know the difference in my brain ah just goes nah, ah we aren't sure every time.
00:51:25
Speaker
so there was a last in the last podcast we're talking about tuna recipes tuna pasta recipes and she was saying um because i in the first recipe i gave it had anchovies and then i corrected myself in the one after that no it wasn't anchovies it was capers and she And she made me realise something, so in peach, I realised I've done the same thing for years. I have, like for instance, I have not sometimes I go to a pizza restaurant and it has capers and I've not ordered it because I've confused it with anchovies, which I hate.
00:52:05
Speaker
weird Weirdly. i've done And she does the same. i I actually replied on that this did this morning saying um that um I love capers and I hate anchovies. So I would like um would love some my for my brain to be... the same Yes, yes, yes. Don't forget that that you and I Paul are are basically the same people. we We're just Someone, area someone got drunk at a, e someone got drunk at a, at a office Christmas party back in 1968 and hoto-copied me. yeah Um, yeah. And now there's you. It is scary. Um, there's so much truth in that as well. Okay. So I, I was saying basically that I wish that I could confuse and boast because, uh, yeah, because then I'd like anchovies more.
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah, who else we got? Okay. Do you want to read this one out, Martin? I'm running out of steam. Oh, Shelley gets another shout out. Hello, Shelley. At shell plus sourdough. There we go. yes um Says Paul. So this one's too to you. So I'll have to do an impression of her. Paul.
00:53:26
Speaker
lafar emoji. um is so Is that a band aid emoji? I also had an burst on a flight. I thought I might pass out so painful.
00:53:49
Speaker
Yes. It's a story. I burst an eardrum once when I had a heavy heavy cold and I flew to Hamburg for New Year and my eardrum burst. The first mistake. And painful. So yeah, big big shout out to the burst eardrum community out there. Oh, you know b e the
00:54:13
Speaker
ah Those are the ones with the Bex. Exactly. We're a very much much ah but aligned and misunderstood community. So just a shout out to the Burstein Drum first in job community.
00:54:26
Speaker
Oh, very nice. Love you all. yeah like Well, yep. So that just leaves me to say ADHD Ville is delivered fresh every Tuesday to all purveyors of Fine Pot. Please subscribe to the pot and rate us most magnificent and feel free to correspond at will in the comments. But wait, there's more. If you wish to see how beautiful, beautiful faces then Sally Forth to the YouTubes and the TikToks.
00:54:53
Speaker
You can also pick up a quill and email us at ADHDville at gmail dot.com. But in the meantime, be fucking kind to yourself. beseech you fellow i gay ideas know thyel son the hounds come hither and get the
00:55:12
Speaker
they like the oh there stick the now that's that