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239- What is Vystopia? And how can we live with it?
95 Plays17 days ago
Clare Mann coined the term "vystopia" as the anguish of being vegan in a non-vegan world. But is this something Ant, Dominic, Julie or Carlos feel? And if so, how they manage this phenomenon?
In the discussion, we mention:
https://vystopia.com/
https://carnism.org/
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Dominic, Carlos, Julie & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody, hello vegans, vegans how are you? I mean really how are you? That is the topic of today's show. I'm Dominic and for this episode I'm also joined by Anthony, Carlos and Julie and we are going to be discussing how to deal with living in a non-vegan world.
00:00:24
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Roaty. Take your flabro meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:36
Speaker
Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry. True education. The younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a of pizza delivery companies in problems with things.
00:00:48
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold, maybe. Any form of social injustice.
00:00:58
Speaker
As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:07
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hello everybody, Julie here. Welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you very much for joining us. Hey everybody, Anthony here. So this is Vegan Talk, one of our several shows that we do at Enough of the Falafel. And this is the one that's a bit timeless. So we're going talk about one topic in particular. And it's not it kind of doesn't really matter whether you're listening this week in... 17 weeks time in two years time the idea is that the the themes are somewhat timeless and the good news about that is you can go back and listen to previous editions of vegan talk so they'll be all in the same place that you're listening to this show right the way back to september 2023 i'm gonna guess that should be carlos shouldn't it yeah i think so i don't get an intro this time no it's happening
00:02:03
Speaker
I'm also on this i'm also in this discussion, and hello, everybody, and ah let's go let's get on it. Fantastic.
Vystopia and Mental Health in a Non-Vegan World
00:02:10
Speaker
Okay, taking inspiration for today's topic, we are reading the blog Immaculate Vegan. So Immaculate Vegan published something, 2nd of October, 2025, Mental Health for Vegans, How to Deal with Living,
00:02:28
Speaker
in a non-vegan world. So they use a word that I hadn't heard before, dystopia, not dystopia, but dystopia, dystopia with a V. So coined by psychologist Claire Mann in her book of the same name, dystopia stands for the anguish of being vegan in in a non-vegan world. Lots is talked about, such as the 2022 study that found that people following a vegan or vegetarian diet were more likely to suffer from depression than others. Melanie Joy is a psychologist who's part of this, the founder of Beyond Carnism and the author of Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear Cows.
00:03:13
Speaker
And she speaks a lot about how just being vegan is in itself very emotionally draining. So this is all ah news to me. This is a phrase I've not heard before, dystopia.
00:03:29
Speaker
Anthony, was this ah something that you were already familiar with?
Personal Experiences of Being Vegan in a Non-Vegan World
00:03:34
Speaker
I've heard the phrase before um and I've come across Dr Melanie Joy's work before. So it it wasn't new to me, although this particular blog was the first time i'd I'd read it and I'd i'd not come across the the whole blog itself, Immaculate Vegan. So yeah, it's something I've been aware of. And in terms of the feeling of dystopia, I wouldn't say it's something that hangs over me or anything like that. But there are ah definitely times or certain triggers where I will think
00:04:07
Speaker
feel the fact that the world's not vegan more than others, if that makes sense. I'm obviously aware of that, that, you know, the whole while, but um I don't know about Julie, Carlos and Dominic and our folk listening. But for me, I'd say the biggest trigger is if there is somebody who I see as being socially minded or um somebody whose moral compass that, you you know, they're they see themselves or perhaps I see them as someone who it's really important to them that they are being just and fair. Maybe they frame themselves as an animal lover or, you know, I i campaign for refugees or what have you.
00:04:48
Speaker
Seeing somebody who I put in that bracket share pictures of their lovely eggy meal that they've gone out for or the bit of chicken that they've consumed at their hipster cafe whilst they've been talking about politics in in a way that I might agree with, that kind of thing where I see the disparity with their views with regards to animal rights, I really feel like a a minority. I don't mean a repressed minority. I i mean, i I really feel then the fact that being vegan is actually statistically quite in new unusual in the world in 2026. Yeah, so I have spoken on previous shows about my struggles which led to me becoming
Vegan Journeys and Activism
00:05:37
Speaker
vegan. I had moved from the countryside to the big city of Manchester where I still live and I was living in the student area and I was really aware of how there were science courses and animal experiments happening just over the road from where I lived
00:05:58
Speaker
And i really fell to pieces about it. I've been vegetarian since I was nine or 10 years old. And at this point in my life, I was in my early 20s.
00:06:13
Speaker
And I had gone along to some vegan festivals and felt really upset and really upset.
00:06:25
Speaker
overwhelmed to the point where it really contributed. it might so I'm 46 now, so we're going back two decades. i was I was agoraphobic. I stopped going out. Just the thought that there were science courses and such awful things happening across the road really didn't sit well.
00:06:45
Speaker
in any way with me that I felt unable to interact with the world. I had neighbours who would like get me groceries. I was like, really, I thought about it a great, great deal.
00:06:56
Speaker
Now, my action coming out of that was a very, what some people would call a very militant one. um I'm not saying that this is wrong or right of me. I really was like, I won't touch leather. I won't get in your car if it's got a leather seat. I do these days, my way of,
00:07:15
Speaker
coping with being vegan in a non-vegan world is I've got very specific things that I do and don't do within my own home, within my own bedroom, within space of which I do have control. And I think, well, when I go out, I am going out into a world that isn't vegan. And I really care about, you know, i work as an artist. I make work about being vegan. In order for me to get that work out there, I need to interact with people who aren't vegan. And I might...
00:07:43
Speaker
choose to sit in a car with a leather seat and although it's still something that doesn't you know make me feel great that's my choice that I now do but it was a really really hard transition for me really hard and again I must emphasize I'm not saying that everybody else needs to have the same approach I do I'm just saying that for me it was ah A huge case, although I've not heard this phrase before. Yeah, huge case of dystopia, huge case. It really, um really upset me a great deal. um Carlos, I know that you're a person who's really actively involved. in a lot of ah campaigning and and direct action in a way. Carlos, I really admire you and I really admire the actions you take, Carlos. Is dystopia something that you would say has been a factor in your own life?
00:08:38
Speaker
Yeah, I try to avoid being too aware of it. So I try to, you know, if a new new video comes out, exploitation on a farm or whatever, I will not absolutely watch watch watch it. I've i got enough of that already kind of in in my head.
00:08:54
Speaker
outside of my conscious mind but it's there playing in the back I'm sure i do feel though when I feel like I'm kind of tired and and when I don't want to do things like direct action or outreach or whatever I will kind of charge my uh sense of injustice up by watching a video or feed feed my dystopia a little bit just to get going as a motivation like for example uh recently not the weekend we recorded this but the weekend prior I did some uh Street Outreach with Anonymous for the Voiceless in Covent Garden in London. And of course, when you're doing that, you have to look at the bloody screen showing the animal abuse.
00:09:32
Speaker
And I hadn't seen that footage in a while or that kind of footage in a while. So that was kind of rough. But then you might be there, you know, on this very busy kind of Christmasy shopping area of London and might think, well, I don't want to start talking to people. i don't feel like talking to people. i don't want to talk to people who are going to ask me about protein or whatever. But then you look at the footage, you go, no, I must talk to the people. I must tell them about this. So I do use that for my kind of engagement. Otherwise I try as a, you know, because I need to also survive in this world. You know, I can't, I can't be,
00:10:08
Speaker
sad about it all the time or enraged about it all the time because I have parts of my life which not which are not about activism, which are not about being angry or upset about the injustice. So I do need to kind of...
00:10:20
Speaker
to a bit of, as people call it this day, self-care and be very selective on how I kind of feed my dystopia.
Reflecting on Social Movements and Dystopia
00:10:28
Speaker
I do like this this term, by the way. It's nice that there's a term for it because it makes it easy also to explain to non-vegans what it's like.
00:10:36
Speaker
And I'm also kind of somewhat involved not as much perhaps as vegan as animal rights, but also engage engage kind of also kind of other social movements. And and so there's more kind of other vystopias other dystopias around than just dystopia. And I guess we can learn from these other activists or people who feel very strongly about, you know, other kind of other social issues, you know, like... racism or discrimination or sexism or this and that. They also must live in a world which is dystopic to them, dystopian to them. And, you know, but they also have to take a break and engage in things which kind of feed their batteries for running a normal life and and then kind of being able to engage with the world. Yeah. Yeah, speaking as a gay man who does a lot of gay rights campaigning, and of course I'm very aware of how the gay experience is so different for different individuals, and there are people who've experienced levels of suffering for their sexuality which are farmed.
00:11:36
Speaker
far greater than anything that I've experienced. That said, I think for me, a difference between my gay rights campaigning and anything I do with vegan activism is for me, that real feeling that the animals can't communicate in The same way that people do and in so many ways that they are voiceless and that that's something that really makes it very, very different and yeah even more upsetting for me just thinking if only if only these pigs or cows or rabbits.
00:12:11
Speaker
reindeer or sheep could could could directly talk to us, what would they say, what would they say to us? Or speaking of sheep, ah there are many sheep who think very, very fondly of Julie because Julie does ah a lot.
00:12:29
Speaker
Well, I hope so. You do, and you spoke in previous vegan talks about ah the the wonderful sheep who benefit from you sharing your life with them. So ah that, I imagine, for any challenges, comes with a great deal of joy, I'm presuming. But what about dystopia for you, Julie?
Creating Vegan Spaces and Handling Hypocrisy
00:12:51
Speaker
Is dystopia something that you would say that you personally experienced? I suppose so. I suppose so. I try to live in as vegan a world as I possibly can.
00:13:03
Speaker
So I kind of shield myself a bit from carnists and other people kind of invading my space or being in my life too much, to be honest with you. but yeah it's definitely there i get very uncomfortable around hypocrisy where it involves animal killing and exploitation and very similar to anthony in that where i work for example they're lovely right on really woke really sensitive about every single nuance of possible discriminatory or anti-discriminatory practice going and yet when there is a team get together my goodness you know the dead animals and the stolen milk is all over the place you know it's just it really is weird I think my most Vistopian moments come though when And I just don't do it anymore. But in the past, when I have attended an event that was for vegans, i am exclusively a vegan of event.
00:14:21
Speaker
And I am speaking with people who identify as vegan. And yet I am hit with their anthropocentric point of view. And i point out that what they're saying or what they're supporting is supporting animal abuse and even...
00:14:38
Speaker
killing they will justify and say ah but this is you know this is for human good you've got to do this you've got to test on animals or you know things like that that or you've got to kill a certain number of deer to let the trees grow to do the rewilding thing you know that's a biggie for me I get that from other vegans that's when I feel at my lowest point I think I can sort of excuse carnists just for their kind of wonky moral compasses being all over the place because it is societal. you know it' In a way, it's not it is their fault and it isn't. It's...
00:15:25
Speaker
it's kind of institutionalised. They just don't have the equipment to resist it, clearly. But when somebody who is aware of all of the arguments and the facts and is, you know, 99% enlightened, still hangs on to anthropocentrism and defends it when it's pointed out to them.
00:15:48
Speaker
And so there's no hope, really. and that That just makes me want to run away, really. Well, you know what, Julie, I'm going to take a counter point here to what you've just said that, you know, Julie, you're a wonderful person and we don't know the impact that you have had.
00:16:08
Speaker
I wasn't born vegan. I changed. I made a positive change for the better. And I don't believe that I finished making positive change. I don't think that this version of Dominic speaking now on this podcast is the most perfect Dominic ever. What? I believe I'm going continue. Yeah, I know, right? I know. I wouldn't have asked you on if I knew that. We've got the perfect version. Thank very much. yeah So, Julie, I think it is normal to have, you know, that knee jerk reaction. Like if you've hit a limb with a hammer and it's so, you know, just because these people said you, oh, no, no, no, Julie, we have to do this. We have to kill a certain number of deer. That is what they're saying in the moment.
00:16:55
Speaker
I do not think it's overly optimistic to say that your words, that you've spoken with such integrity and such truth, you know, you're right in what you say. You don't know how that might have burrowed into their heads and just been a seed that has planted and and developed and...
00:17:16
Speaker
You know what? I don't think badly of them for being wrong in the same way i don't think badly of myself for being wrong because we do have the potential to grow.
Handling Vegan Events and Community Building
00:17:26
Speaker
We do. we do. And I've said plenty of nonsense in my time. Plenty of nonsense. I'm not saying you're wrong to feel dystopia. I'm not in any way saying that.
00:17:37
Speaker
I would feel the same. I absolutely. And, you know, to make to go back to the gay rights thing, when I've gone to gay rights events and I've met gays who are, I'm like, how is this possible? How is this when I've met homosexual folks who've got really awful views? And I'm like, surely, surely that those things can't coexist.
00:18:02
Speaker
But ah again, I try... When you go to something that is specifically a vegan event and people are talking and then justifying animal abuse, you just think, well, I should have just gone to a mainstream thing then and there would have been more people at it and it probably would you know, a bit more of a laugh or a bit more fun or a bit more mainstream or whatever. yeah We do go to these niche little...
00:18:27
Speaker
events sometimes or you know am for me ah vegan runners is a is a minority of running people my mainstream running club is far bigger you know but if you know if I were to leave them behind and spend time with a group of people from vegan runners but then bump up against It's not so much that, and it isn't that I am being negative towards the person themselves, but I will always, always stick up for animals and always be hurt and sad and upset by descriptions of their killing and exploitation. And I don't want to go to an event to be hurt and upset and to be having to stick up for animals. I do that enough of the time the rest of the time. when I go to a vegan event, I want to be among like-minded people to give my poor brain a bit of a rest from sort of sitting and, you know, kind of feeling an upset for the animals. you know that song And I think this description of dystopia is one where
00:19:34
Speaker
my interpretation of it anyway, is it's saying it's a feeling of feeling isolated. it's It's like, I've got this opinion and I'm in a minority and I'm in a world where this cruelty is happening and we're a small voice that is objecting to it. And that and and that you feel even more a minority, don't you, if you're with the people that you thoughts were on your side with it and you're realizing, oh, no, no, that's not actually the case. If I can come back to something you said, Julie, sort of ah earlier and in your description there in terms of trying to make your world as vegan as possible. I think if I were to have a critique of this blog article that's been our initial starting point for this, it felt to me reading it and I don't know whether, Carlos, Julie, Dominic, you felt the same, it was almost saying, well, you know, if if you have to pick your battles and water things down a little bit, then...
00:20:34
Speaker
In order to keep your friends and to not get upset too often, then that's a a reasonable thing to do. And I absolutely understand if people feel that that's what they need to do, then that's fine. But what I didn't read in this article was a viewpoint saying...
00:20:52
Speaker
it might be that you have a friend who, because of your vegan standpoint, you fall out with, and that's okay. Like I didn't read that anywhere. and And I was thinking, do you know what? Like I want to fall out with that friend who I thought was a good person, but it turns out that they have really problematic viewpoints for, for you know, fair enough, a work colleague, I can't control who my work colleagues are to the same extent, but For for people to be my friend, i want to feel like some synergy with them. but you've got to look at the context, though, because Immaculate Vegan is a shopping website.
00:21:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, of course. So this is just a wee, this is just a light little space
SEO and Narratives in Veganism
00:21:34
Speaker
filler. on a shopping website it's not meant to be controversial or anything at all it's not selling anything itself but it's a bit of a padding a bit of a filler to make a shopping website look interesting they're They're doing it to improve their SEO. So when people search for, you know, vegan shopping things, their page comes higher up. That's why most pages will put a blog in. And as a result, people will find this blog. So so people who are interested in veganism or are vegan, they will find this. And so i i know it's all about... keywords and stuff like that and we can't rely on it but it frustrates me that that vegans and people interested in veganism will come across this article and i feel it needs just just as a counterpoint i completely understand why someone who's vegan might think oh i am going to pick my battles and i'm not going to fall out with my friend or my auntie or whatever over this. I do understand that, but I do also think there needs to be a narrative that says it's okay to fall out with people.
00:22:42
Speaker
um And it might be that you have a smaller circle of friends being vegan. but they might be friends who you are aligned with and that you really resonate with. Falling out with some people opens the opportunity to make new friends who might be more aligned with you in the end. Yeah, absolutely. Instead of trying to kind of kind of keep this relationship going with somebody who you feel is very has very problematic views. and And it's funny how we talk about veganism, because perhaps we we'd say that it's perfectly okay to not be friends or... not entertain family members who are racist or sexist or homophobic.
00:23:22
Speaker
but we somehow make extra an extra allowance if they have a very, um let's say, a very entrenched, carnist view of the world. Although I will say to that, I think, you know, we live in an age of a vilification of conflict, you know, like now more than ever in my life, I feel people are expected to always just get on and just be diplomats and...
00:23:47
Speaker
Again, I'm going to say my stance, and I'm not saying it's the correct stance. It's just the the position I'm taking. What you were saying, Carlos, I really agree with it that a lot of people are. Here's my hard line when it comes to bigotry with humans. My personal choice is I engage far more than I used to with people with homophobic views. And with my, I really relate to what you were saying, Carlos, with dystopia and deliberately exposing yourself to some stuff to fire yourself up. I mean, I do the same with Pete, who say awful things about LGBTQ plus folks because I want to be
Managing Public Perceptions and Activism Narratives
00:24:28
Speaker
an activist. And if I, and I'm not disrespecting anyone who does want to just go, no, I can't be doing with those people. That's understandable. That's really, you know, look after yourself. But because I feel I can,
00:24:42
Speaker
have conversations with people. ah i i I do want to, but so I don't necessarily think it's good thing. I'm agreeing with you, Carlos. I'm agreeing with you that I think in general terms, we're expected to be tolerant of people with awful views about animal cruelty. We're expected, you know, we're the extremists. Whereas when it comes to homophobia, I think...
00:25:07
Speaker
In polite society in 2026, you know, we'd be seen as fair enough. or like Oh, I don't speak to um homophobic uncle, whoever. But I put it out there that let let's just have loads of conflict with everyone. my that's my that's my sort of bottom line well I draw a line in public places and in workplaces I will share space with carnism and if people raise the topic of the way I live my life I will absolutely win every single argument that people bring me because I'm on the side of peace and justice so it's easy it's a walkover but In my day-to-day life, the environment that I do have utter control of, because I'm lucky enough to have a house to myself, is my own home. And I absolutely lay down the law with that. And I do not have products of animal abuse in this house anywhere. You know, to the extent that the kitchen, because it wasn't the kitchen that was in, you know i mean? That was ripped out to the walls and I have put a brand new one in. And none of the appliances have had animal products in them. And, you know, it this is my space and I would not let anybody bring in animal abuse products to this space. But, yeah, I do accept that I will have to occasionally not just sit in the field talking to the sheep, but communicate with other human beings. I do as little as possible, to be honest. What you've just said, Julie, about communicating with others. I am a person who writes poetry about veganism and poetry is a very specific way of communicating a message because there's a lyricism, a melody to the words. I think sometimes I become a little bit immune to how...
00:27:04
Speaker
hard some of the words I've written are because there's a sing-song quality to it and I think I do well if I remember that there's a potential dystopia that I'm creating with my words that I might be numb to because I've said them so many times and you know I'm not saying that's wrong for me too. I guess like the the writer Stephen King in writing his horror books, he says that if you're writing something and people just turn off because it's too much for them, you've failed. And I think what he says about writing horror books can apply to speaking about the vegan message that... Yeah, we've spoken on past shows about what's a helpful way to talk about veganism. You know, should we be gentle? Should we be quite shocking?
00:27:51
Speaker
I would argue that there is a level of shocking that if we just make people turn off, then maybe we're not doing the best job. So I think the dystopia we create might be different in other people than the dystopia we're feeling ourselves. If we've got a sense of control over what we're talking about, which I have with my poems, like think it's really important for me to aim to have an awareness of of of that in others. Yeah. I think like you're to me what what I'm hearing from you saying that Dominic is you're talking about narratives and in terms of like what we expose ourselves to and the the story that we tell ourselves about a certain experience and I i think that's
00:28:34
Speaker
that's the crux of this because I hear a lot ah these days people saying, oh, we live in a difficult time. And i yes, yes, of course it's difficult, but I would also challenge that it's more difficult than any other time that human beings are living through. I kind of want to say to that, well, can you tell me when exactly in human existence has has been significantly better than this? Because I'm i pretty sure like from a social justice point of view, Like, I don't think things have ever been better, even if there are still very deep problems. And I think that's the thing with dystopia, isn't it? It's like, goodness, yes, there are billions, trillions of animals needlessly being exploited and abused every year, needlessly, needlessly. That's a terrible thing.
00:29:22
Speaker
to focus on if that is the thing that you just focus on in isolation with no recourse to action or response or how am I going to manage that or what have you. But that would be a very bleak narrative to to give oneself, like that's what's happening And I'm helpless to do anything about it and no one else can do anything about it with
Balancing Dystopia with Mental Health
00:29:45
Speaker
it. But that's not the case, is it? That's not the case. We can focus on what we can do and, of course, dose out the
00:29:54
Speaker
appropriate amounts of the reality that yes it's bleak so we're not gonna completely overwhelm ourselves with that all the time I know that's easier said than done and that some neurologies might find that easier to do than others but I think it's about tempering that narrative that we give ourselves about the world otherwise we can just tie ourselves up in knots and that's that's not helping anyone is it I mean, hopefully this little article, which wasn't written for the website, I don't think. It's just a little intro to the book that Sasha's written.
00:30:27
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's all this is, I think. It's just an innocent little intro meant to be not too sort of confronting or challenging to anybody, I think. And also, shout out to Sasha Camilli. She works for PETA. So um she does some interesting stuff, definitely. I've said on past shows that in addition to dystopia, there is a, well, it's probably too grand a word, say utopian, but definitely a joyful quality that if nothing else, if nothing else If we can be joyful in public about our vegan lives, then that is powerful. that is Because people often say, ha how do you manage your sacrifice? I could never do that. I could never give up this. And that there's one thing, even on my lowest days, I am proud and positive. about veganism, even on my days where I'm at my most miserable, it is easy to be celebratory of the wonderful food that we have, of the wonderful clothes we wear, it's easy, and and I will always do that and I think for me, that's my...
00:31:53
Speaker
bare minimum that when I'm at a public thing you know even if like I don't feel like going like oh you know here's all the reasons why I'm not going on the team meeting to the horse racing course ah I will say that I'm not going and I'll be joyful about the alternatives that I have in my life and never pitch what I do as a sacrifice because it isn't 100% definitely that Do we actually need to feel a drive and dissatisfaction in how non-vegan the world is? Is there a a benefit of that? listened to what Carlos was saying before about, ah you know, firing yourself up and you found a way that is definitely working for you, Carlos, because as I've previously said, I really admire what you do and how you do it. Yeah.
00:32:46
Speaker
Is a certain percentage of dystopia essential? If we didn't have a dystopia, would that actually be a negative thing for us? Would that lead us, if we weren't on some level aware of the real cruelty in the world if we didn't know that would it lead to us just going oh well yeah just drop a bit of dairy milk in our tea just oh yeah i'll just eat what everyone else so i mean surely there's no such thing as veganism with without a sense of going um this doesn't seem right to me yeah um i mean i suppose you dystopia is talking ah about a melancholy I think. and And so I think it could be possible to, in a very balanced, rational way, say, this doesn't seem to be socially just and equitable and something needs to be done about it without getting emotionally down about that. I can imagine that. but I think most humans, neurology and ah emotional wiring is such that
00:33:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think we we need to get down. I mean, I i work with children and young people and, and you know, ah ah quite a progressive way, and very human way of of responding to children's emotions when they're when they're negative emotions, when they're feeling sad or upset about something is is saying like, oh, you you seem to be upset. Like, it's okay to be upset. There's a good thing that you can feel that and and it can...
00:34:21
Speaker
It can lead to good things. And yeah, we need it. I think we're we're probably afraid of it. In on on-demand telly and unlimited internet age that we're in probably it's possible to ah inoculate ourselves against ever feeling sad or bad. Sure.
00:34:38
Speaker
If we're interested in justice, like we we need to feel pissed off about things and enraged and... Someone should write a poem about that, Dominic. I think they might have done. I think they might have done. There is a difficult balance to get, isn't there? Because I never want to go back to the days I had that I described at the start of this show about when I became agoraphobic because the cruelty and unfairness of the world was so great. I thought I cannot engage with it. And I really, you know, it's no exaggeration to say, you know, there was like suicidal thoughts in my head because it was just, I thought, can I exist in this world? Can I exist? So clearly, I'm really glad that i can offer a positive force in the world now. I don't want to go back to those days. So there is some sort of balance. I do think you can experience too much dystopia. And, you know, perhaps the argument is you can feel like, not enough if like you just think oh well it doesn't really matter so there is kind of a middle ground I really hear you Ant about the idea of we live in an age where it's so easy to find entertainment so easy just scroll through a phone and find something that's gonna make us smile or laugh and you know I've attended enough mindfulness courses about well you know what
00:35:58
Speaker
maybe sit with sadness, maybe sit with anger, feel how that feels. Maybe we don't need to constantly cure ourselves, but we do do well if we don't sink into into a level of unhappiness where where we where we can't even function. So do each of us maybe have something that ah we would subjectively recommend to to listeners, a little little bit of vegan joy?
Finding Joy and Community in Veganism
00:36:27
Speaker
If maybe any of our listeners have a little bit of dystopia that they feel is too much on the, yeah you know, I'm going to say, listen to the music of Joe and the Shit Boys.
00:36:37
Speaker
Woo!
00:36:39
Speaker
because they're vegan and they're punk and they're silly and they're rocky and I love them. Julie, do you have a particular recommendation that you think, if somebody's feeling that it's all got a little bit too much, what do you think could be an antidote to too greater amount of dystopia in a person's life?
00:36:59
Speaker
Sit in the beautiful companionship unrestrained beside or near and beautiful member of the animal species somehow or another and don't kind of expect anything at all just sit and be beside them and be beside them knowing that you are not contributing to the suffering of their fellow kind and that you are meeting them as an equal and admiring them and respecting them and just feel the joy of that that is
00:37:37
Speaker
Just brilliant, life affirming type of thing to do, I think. Wow, that's an excellent answer. I'm going to ask the same question to Anthony next and then Carlos finally. So you gentlemen can prepare yourselves for that. Julie, that's ah that's such a great answer. And, you know, my mother still lives in the rural area in which I grew up. And it's so, so different to the city where I'm currently based. And I really hear that. I really hear that just going and sitting and looking at animals and thinking, you know, these animals, you know, I'm not saviour. I'm not here to save them. You know, look at them. They're there. they're living their they know how to live they know how to be if anything i can learn from them so yeah big big yes to that anthony what's your uh subjective view on uh not getting sunk in the dystopia quagmire no indeed so i'm going to go along the lines of dystopia being a feeling of isolation and being a minority So if you have access to a vegan cafe or restaurant or other kind of social space, I'd
Progress and Hope in the Vegan Movement
00:38:51
Speaker
say go along. If you don't feel like popping in, then just look inside and look at the range of people that are there, the number of people, I have been in vegan cafes and restaurants before that have not had many people in but that that's generally been an unusual occurrence and my experience has always been that there's been a huge range of different people young and old or different sorts of backgrounds and that's really heartening if you don't have access
00:39:21
Speaker
to such a place, because you live in a rural place. If you can use your imagination and contemplate what living as a vegan in your particular area might have been like 20 years ago, that's about the amount of time that we would call a generation, isn't it? 20, 30 years. What would that have been like 20 to 30 years ago? Like we are making such, such progress in this movement. So many more people are interested in improving outcomes for animals and animal rights. And you can just measure that by how much less difficult practically is. I'm not talking about emotionally, practically. it is to be vegan in 2026 or whenever you're listening to this. Like there is huge progress and that means we're making a difference. And the more of us that want to make a difference, the quicker and the better that progress is. So we're making a difference.
00:40:21
Speaker
Remember that, notice that. Very, very well said, Anthony. Poor Carlos. I'm going to Carlos at the end, and like Anthony and Julie have been given these like, you know, award ceremony level monologues Passion and peace.
00:40:40
Speaker
Carlos, do you have anything subjectively that you would suggest to listeners if they feel... I'm going to follow on from Ant and kind of say roughly the same thing, but differently. You might live in a place without a vegan cafe or vegan restaurant. You might not know any in local vegans, but unless... i mean, if you're if you live in one of the places where we get our regular views from, there will be other view other vegans in your area.
Community Building and Listener Engagement
00:41:04
Speaker
It's just you're not aware of them because...
00:41:06
Speaker
Maybe there isn't a vegan cafe or like a place that's called vegan for you all to get together. But there will be other vegans in your area. If you're in the it's 3% of the population. So unless you're very, very remote, there'll be another vegan.
00:41:20
Speaker
Even if that's just 100 people and you're a vegan, there'll be two other vegans on average. See, this that's that's a lot. ah if If you can't find the other vegans, if there's like one not a place, create a vegan space.
00:41:34
Speaker
go to your local pub, they will have a function room that has nothing going on. Or maybe they get like no business on like a Monday evening or a Tuesday evening or whatever and say, why don't we do a vegan food night for people to come and have vegan food. Maybe the chef, the local chef can kind of learn how to cook a few dishes.
00:41:57
Speaker
There'll be like people who come who are not vegan, but kind of just want the novelty of having something different. And then maybe some vegans will come as well, and then you'll meet them, and you will not feel so alone.
00:42:08
Speaker
For me, my ingredient my solution to Vistopia is not doing something about it, because when I do something about it, it doesn't push away my Vistopia. If anything, it kind of makes the Vistopia greater because I feel like I'm not doing enough.
00:42:22
Speaker
What makes my Vistopia go away is to hang out with other vegans. I know I'm very privileged where I live to have like lots and lots of vegans around, but... if you're If you're not you know in an area that you know to have lots of vegans, there will be other vegans who think also think they're the only vegans in that area.
00:42:41
Speaker
So you just need to find a way to to kind of find them, whether it's Facebook groups or social media groups Nextdoor or whatever app or place like people from your area get together, kind of say, well, I'm thinking of hosting a vegan food diet.
00:42:55
Speaker
on this local pub on a Tuesday evening. does anybody Would anybody would like to come? And there are people who are vegetarians and who might be interested in trying some vegan food or just hanging out with people who are not carnists.
00:43:07
Speaker
Or you just might find actually vegans in your area and just hang out with them. And even if they have different views on other topics, it will I assure you, it will kind of make you feel better about living in a cruel world like we do. Brilliant. Thank you, Carlos. And of course, there are all our objectively beautiful vegan voices here on Enough of the Falafel. So we're your vegan friends. And on that topic of vegan friendship, ah if you've enjoyed listening to the show, we would love it if you could please do us, your friends, a very small favour.
00:43:45
Speaker
It's it's a relationship a friend relationship that is very conditional. Yeah. If you leave us a five-star review. If you've enjoyed today's show, we'd love it if you could take just a few seconds to share it with someone else who you think might enjoy it too.
00:44:04
Speaker
We don't have a marketing team or a budget to spend on advertising, so your referrals are the best way of spreading the free Enough of the Falafel joy further still. And if you haven't already, we'd be really grateful if you could leave us a rating on your podcast player.
00:44:20
Speaker
That will also help the show pop up when people search for vegan or animal rights content online. Thanks for your help.
00:44:31
Speaker
Well, thanks everybody for listening and look forward to our next episodes, which Dominic and Julie will tell you all about. Yeah, we would love it if you got in touch with
Future Content and Engagement Opportunities
00:44:42
Speaker
us. Please send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com.
00:44:49
Speaker
The next Enough of the Falafel episode is available from Monday 19th of January and it's a Vegan Week episode. So that's our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news. Indeed, indeed. Anyway, that is enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you, Julie, Carlos and Dominic for all your contributions today. Thank you everyone for listening. I've been Anthony and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:45:25
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:45:39
Speaker
And sometimes if you're lucky at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:46:06
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:46:27
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:46:41
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.