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241- Are you still vegan if you feed animals meat?
92 Plays10 days ago
Despite the click-bait headline, this is NOT a judgemental discussion! But it's a tricky one; compassionate followers of a vegan lifestyle, pressured by their animal's needs and/or finance, left wondering whether they need to make an exception...and buy animal products for their companion animal(s) to eat. Ant, Carlos & Kate have all lived with companion animals and discuss their approaches to this divisive issue, as well as sharing some science & market research that may help folk with this element of vegan decision-making.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Kate, Carlos & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction and Ethical Question on Veganism and Pet Diets
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everyone. Now here's a question. Are you still vegan if you feed a dog or cat in your care animal products?
00:00:10
Speaker
Now we might not give you the answer in this episode but we're certainly going to do our best to discuss it. I'm Anthony and for this episode of Vegan Talk I'm also joined by Kate and Carlos.
00:00:22
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butt is used for. Brrr! Roaty. Take your flat-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:34
Speaker
Should I call the medium and say, hi, sorry. True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a of pizza delivery companies in problems with things.
00:00:46
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold, maybe. Any form of social injustice.
00:00:56
Speaker
As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:05
Speaker
cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and Hello, hello everyone. This is Carlos and you're very much welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you so much for being here. Hi everyone, it's Kate with you. it's lovely to be here with you. This is Vegan Talk and we have lots of previous episodes. Just look at our back catalogue on all kinds of interesting subjects. So yeah, just have a little look.
00:01:32
Speaker
Indeed, they go all the way back to 2023, which now we're in a new year, fails even longer ago. So you've got over 100 vegan talk episodes to enjoy whenever you want. They're not going out of
Debating Vegan Principles and Pet Diets
00:01:46
Speaker
date. Now, today we are talking about a thorny issue. As we said at the top, are you still vegan? Is a vegan thing to do? to feed a dog or cat or any animal in our care, really, animal products. I think before we go anywhere with this discussion, it' it's worth acknowledging um because we anticipate that there might be a greater proportion of folk listening who might, I don't know, have have different opinions to to one another on this topic that actually the the three of us are going to talk about this and maybe folk will send emails in about it or you might be
00:02:25
Speaker
listening, thinking certain things and thinking, oh gosh, what would other people think? Well, actually, this is just a a philosophical discussion and we might use real tangible examples, but actually, the more we can do this in a judgment-free way, I think the the better, and certainly in terms of moving our all of our understandings forward on these things. So,
00:02:49
Speaker
We're going to express our opinions. We're going to state some facts. We're going to share some thoughts on it. But hopefully it's not coming across in a judgmental way. So let's get the ball rolling. And I'll ask Kate and Carlos, perhaps if you want to answer in that order, unless Carlos is burning to get in there first.
00:03:10
Speaker
In what ways might it be reasonable? Might it be a reasonable decision?
Challenges in Transitioning Pets to Vegan Diets
00:03:16
Speaker
for someone to decide that whilst they want to be vegan themselves, so avoid using animal products, avoid contributing to animal exploitation themselves, whilst they want to do that, they might choose to continue feeding an animal in their care with animal products.
00:03:36
Speaker
Kate, you happy to get us started? why Can you think of some instances why that might be a reasonable thing to do? i can think that it might be a reasonable thing to do because I have done it. That sounds bad, doesn't it? Only because I've done it is reasonable. No, that's not what I mean.
00:03:56
Speaker
Okay, in my opinion, i so I have got a vegan dog and I have a vegan cat, but we had a dog who absolutely point bank refused to eat vegan food at the same time as having these other two creatures in our care who were vegan. And probably, maybe i didn't try transitioning in ah over a longer period of time because our cat and our dog, they just swapped straight over, no problem. But he wasn't having it. He just wasn't having it. And I can imagine people trying it and finding that their dog or cat just isn't having it.
00:04:43
Speaker
So yeah, I can imagine. carrying on feeding a sort of more meaty diet but not a raw one not a raw one no no so yeah that's my thoughts on that initially okay what about you carlos can you can you imagine situations or like kate have there been examples where that's that's been something you've felt that has been the right thing to do or do you know someone Yeah, I mean, we can we can always think that not all vegans, let's say that all, I mean, only people can be vegans, animals can't be vegans because they they don't that's not how they decide. it's you know They don't have the moral consideration to be vegans, they just
00:05:22
Speaker
herbivores or carnivores or whatever and the ones in our care eat what we give them to eat but they're not vegans they they could just have a plant-based diet so if we're talking about when I say vegans people who have animals in their care not all of them will be able to make this choice because ultimately um you know, a plant-based diet a plant-based diet that's suitable for dogs and cats and other animals. It might not be available for every vegan everywhere. You know, we're in the UK, we're blessed. We have lots of choices for plant-based foods for for our pets, even for cats.
00:05:58
Speaker
But this is not the reality for, I i would expect, most vegan vegans who take care of animals. Outside, of of course, of animals who have a plant-based diet by default, like I would imagine birds, or most birds at least. So that's that's just not their possibility. So I would never judge them. i would say the vegan the right vegan thing to do is if you have the opportunity to have an animal that only eats, has a diet that consists only of plant-based food, then...
00:06:26
Speaker
it's our moral obligation as vegans to feed them in that fashion. With all the caveats that Kate was saying, that if you have a pet that absolutely will not eat the plant-based food and it's at risk of starving themselves or kind of suffering, then obviously think that's within the reasonable flexibility of being
Ethical and Practical Considerations
00:06:53
Speaker
a vegan. Yes. You mean the reasonable flexibility kind of like as per most people's definition of it, the vegan society's definition? Is that kind what you mean? Yeah, that's our definition where within practical and balancing all the other options that would occur from making the vegan option.
00:07:12
Speaker
In the same way that vegans have to think, for example, if they have a chronic disease and the only medication has been tested on animals, they have to make the decision for themselves what they're comfortable with living, you know, the decision they they're comfortable taking in that situation. But for Pet foods, if it's available to you and you can afford it and your animal your animals in your care will consume it and be healthy on it, then it's our moral obligation as vegans to make the the plant-based choice, I would say. Yes.
00:07:45
Speaker
Yeah. No, I understand that. I think from my perspective, a reasonable... decision that for someone to decide that they themselves are vegan, but they're continuing to feed animal products to companion animals, animals in their care, might also be one of one's awareness not yet being raised to that level. And I realize that that might sound condescending, but I think many of us, when we're deciding that we want to abstain from
00:08:21
Speaker
the product of of cruelty, whether that be, I'm not going to eat meat anymore. Or I've seen this video about what happens to eggs. I'm not, at what happens to eggs? What happens to chickens in egg production? I'm not going to eat eggs anymore.
00:08:35
Speaker
Or, oh goodness, I've learned what's involved in the production of silk or what goes on at zoos. Or, you know, the the list continues.
00:08:46
Speaker
Unless we're a completely dogmatic person or we respond to complete black and white things and it's like, oh, I want to be vegan, so I'm going to follow all of the rules of veganism to the letter immediately. Now, we we probably don't even understand why we're doing that. So I've realized that might be the way that some people go about things, but I imagine for...
00:09:09
Speaker
a lot of people. It's about our understanding growing and our awareness being raised. And I think it's very natural for us to think about ourselves first and not necessarily Think about how that the the knock-on effect that our actions have in the same way that it's very rare, I think, for a vegan to become an activist on day one. And yes, we can argue that being vegan in itself is is an activist decision. It's ah's a bold stance to take. But actually, to start with, we're focusing on, can I do this? Do I want to do this? How do I do this?
00:09:49
Speaker
Then we might be thinking about, well, what about other people in my household? or other people that are in my care. And then beyond that, we might be thinking, well, how can I encourage other people to live this way? But it's it's kind of in that order. it's not It's certainly not in the reverse order. So I could understand why somebody might live for several years, even, and and say, I'm just sorting this out for myself first, before thinking of others.
00:10:16
Speaker
And I agree with Carlos, and I think you're saying the same, Kate, that actually it is a vegan thing to do to to try and reduce as much animal exploitation that is in our power to to do. and And so if we are regularly feeding a dog...
00:10:34
Speaker
If we can do that in a plant-based way, then we're reducing the the suffering and exploitation as much as possible. Kate, we could go into a whole series of episodes talking about the nutritional side of things. And we've mentioned a big hero of this podcast, Professor Andrew Knight, several times. He's done tomes of research on this. But could you just give us a few touch points on the nutritional point of view Is it possible for a dog, a cat, let's just take those two as the examples, to be raised on a plant-based diet?
Health Benefits and Nutritional Needs
00:11:10
Speaker
Yes and yes. So it's not just possible, it's actually beneficial. Thanks to Andrew Knight's research. and you know
00:11:21
Speaker
And dogs are not carnivores. They do not eat or eat a meat-only diet. They're actually omnivores and have evolved next to us for probably about 30,000 years eating.
00:11:34
Speaker
and apparently their gut bacteria are nearly or possibly the same as ours. that We are that closely bonded. But cats, obviously, they are obligate carnivores and they need carnitine and turing, which is found in meat.
00:11:53
Speaker
But when um cat food is processed, any carnitine and turing that's in it is completely destroyed. And so industry has to add it in afterwards to artificially made carnitine turing, adds it back in. So which is quite an interesting thing, which blew my mind when I first heard that. Yeah, I didn't know that.
00:12:19
Speaker
no well that was listening to andrew knight if ever you get a chance to listen to him he's absolutely fantastic actually you can listen to him online he's got talks on online it's brilliant so yeah so hit somebody studies that dogs have fed vegan diets had the best health outcomes and health disorder rates conventional meat 49 raw meat 43 vegan 36 i mean i can i can vouch for that i mean my my dog's ear infections that she got for years and years and years on ah on an ordinary, you know, tin dog food diet, gone, they've gone. You know, people, with their dogs with skin conditions clear up. So illness indicators were much less common in vegans versus conventional meat. It's consistently associated with lower risks of certain health disorders. And so actually, even though
00:13:17
Speaker
vegan dog food is usually quite often more expensive, but not more expensive than raw meat dog food. It's actually going to save people vets bills, you know, medication bills, you know, it becomes more affordable if you think about it in that way. And the nutritional profile, if you if you buy manufactured pet food, it's got everything that your your your animals need in there.
00:13:49
Speaker
You can add, i mean I've got a friend who who has a like a plate with a variety of foods on including chopped tofu and bits of carrot and berries and and um some some dried dog food. And they kind of, they they work their way around and they love all these different tastes and stuff. They actually enjoy their food. that Dogs, apparently, they make vitamin C in their gut.
00:14:12
Speaker
Did you know that? I didn't know that. i think that's incredible. You're full of facts. Well, full of all sorts of other stuff, which you won't mention, but there we are. yeah But it's is's it's fair to say then it's that it is possible for for for dogs and cats, which are going to be the predominant companion animals that that we're talking about here, can live and seemingly thrive in many cases on that diet.
Ethics of Imposing Vegan Diets on Pets
00:14:39
Speaker
A question though, Carlos, would be that actually if we leave dogs,
00:14:45
Speaker
dogs and cats to their own devices in, I don't want to say in the wild, but you know, if there was a a stray dog or a ah a stray cat or what have you, they might be choosing to eat animal products, perhaps exclusively in the case of a cat. So like, is there an ethical consideration there that we're, it's is possibly is as close as it comes to a vegan forcing their opinion on others? Yeah, but I don't like this argument of nature that people like to make. Usually they're made against veganism, not for veganism when people go, but we have canines, but our ancestors, humans are omnivores, we should eat meat as well. it It really doesn't matter what behavior cats or dogs would engage if left to their own devices because we're keeping them as pets.
00:15:35
Speaker
And in that sense, we're responsible for what they eat. And for their care. If a dog is eating its kibble or if, a and and there's also vegan wet food, by by the way, for both cats and dogs. So if if if a cat is eating their food and leading a a happy, healthy life, I think i think it's against veganism to try to imagine that the cat is not happy. Because I... i I would tend to believe that the animals in our care have no idea about what they're eating. And in the sense that they don't care, it came from an animal, it came from anything else. it just They just think, right? Smells good, tastes good.
00:16:14
Speaker
I feel healthy. you know I don't think they make any moral considerations about where the food is coming from or if it involves hunting or it doesn't involve hunting. So in that sense, i I have no issues with that. I would say, though, that, you know for example, if you have a dog and that dog is on vegan food, if you go on the street and somebody dropped a chicken wing on the on the floor, the dog is going to eat that. Not because it came from an animal, but because it smelled tasty.
00:16:39
Speaker
I mean, the dog the dog doesn't really care that it came from a chicken. and I don't want to diminish the intelligence of dogs, but I strongly have strong reasons to doubt that the dog looks at the little bone on the ground and thinks, oh, that came from a larger animal that has wings and flaps about and that I would chase if given the opportunity. It's just a tasty thing.
00:17:00
Speaker
It could be anything really. Yes, particularly if it has a strong smell. As I i have i've noted, when I come back from a run and am particularly smelly, I am particularly attractive to a particular dog. Yes, they bite and eat on your chicken legs. Yes, indeed. Indeed. what What interests me, and let's not spend too long on this, but but very often we hear the phrase that ah that cats are obligate carnivores and, you know, given given the chance that a cat's only going to...
00:17:29
Speaker
eat meat. Presumably there has come a point where someone or some ones have thought to themselves well I want to test that actually because I don't want to consume animal products and ideally I don't want my cat to do so and they've experimented and they've found ways of making it so that a cat can have a plant-based diet and as you were saying Kate there's all the added nutrition in there to make sure it's not
Innovative Solutions for Carnivorous Pets
00:17:59
Speaker
suffering. I mean, where do we stop there? Because you you could be looking after a snake in your care. You could be looking after another reptile. You could be like, I mean, should the innovative vegan be be looking for ways of finding plant-based snake food? That's not going to be me, by the way. I do. I love snakes. I love amphibians. But if I've got to feed the mooty stuff, I'm... no no somebody else can do that but um i'm hoping that there there will be it hasn't somebody made fermented like mouse meat or something somewhere hopefully if people really want you know ah perhaps we shouldn't be keeping these animals
00:18:41
Speaker
and breeding them that's that's the thing really well that is one solution isn't it is to is to find things that as carlos is saying like it's it's a it's a base in in terms of like an appetite thing it's a very base instinct is it isn't it it's like does it does it smell good and then when it's in my mouth does it does it taste good enough to carry on And then we just need to worry about the nutrition.
Cost Comparison of Vegan vs. Meat-Based Pet Food
00:19:05
Speaker
So for for all those vegan snake looker afters that we have listening to us, do get in touch. Enough of the falafel at gmail.com. We've mentioned the price aspect of it. And I think that is something that is important to focus on. Carlos, are you happy to talk us through the numbers just with regards to dogs initially? Yeah. Okay, no problem. Yeah, so we did a bit of research research on this. And vegan dog food, for example, is more expensive in general than non-vegan dog food. Although it's not by, I wouldn't say it's a huge amount. Let's say, I think the best comparison would be to say that the mid-range for both products, both types of products are very similar, but there's no like
00:19:49
Speaker
budget vegan dog food, whereas there's definitely budget meat-based dog food. So if you compare like the bottom prices, the floor of the prices, then definitely meat-based is cheaper. But once you get like to the mid-range, the prices are definitely comparable per kilo. And then if you want to spend lots of money on your dog food, you can spend lots of money both plant-based or meat-based. Yeah. And I would say for cat foods, then would say perhaps due to the bigger complexity and the fact that there are fewer plant-based cats out there, I would say that it's definitely more expensive, though.
00:20:33
Speaker
and And that's what it boils down to a lot of the time, doesn't it? In terms of, you you mentioned there's not a budget option for dog food. Well, well surely that comes to numbers, doesn't it? I mean, ah I don't know how many dogs there are living in the UK, but there's certainly enough that you can use the the kind of economy of scale. And if you're pedigree chum or you're even just a supermarket, you can be sure that you're going to be selling a lot of this stuff. So that can really bring the price down as as well as the the the horrific kind of
00:21:08
Speaker
lack of any kind of welfare standards or or anything for these products and in terms of how they're stored as well food hygiene things like it just doesn't exist for animal food so it it can be really cheap whereas perhaps a vegan manufacturer is is going to have ah a few more scruples perhaps Yeah. And and it's ah it's a big factor that if you go to the supermarket, even let's say, and we're talking UK here, like the really big, like, let's say a Tesco Extra, which is like a huge warehouse of a supermarket, you will not find plant-based pet food, essentially. And that's that's a big change. That's why there's no kind of bo kind of budget range.
00:21:48
Speaker
That's one of the big issues. Not yet, anyway. Not yet. On the face of it, like I said, vegan, say cat food, for example, seems quite expensive. But actually, it takes flipping ages for my cat to get through the cat food. it really does. And actually, my dog, it takes ages. So really, day to day, the price isn't that much.
00:22:12
Speaker
And if we if we have ah an animal in our care, we've got to be prepared to fork out sometimes and infect. bills are so expensive these days. And if you're saving on that, hopefully, anyway, potentially, then that's really helpful as well. So um and I just want to give a plug to Ariel, Dr. Ariel Griffiths, who sells some some really great vegan dog food and some cat things as well. but She also she's got this um Amiga oils thing, which is fermented, and it's pink.
00:22:48
Speaker
It's like got the same antioxidants in it that turn is it krill pink that flamingos feed on that turns them pink and turns crabs pink and lobsters pink. My cat, like I give some to my dog and there's a cat version. My cat practically floors me when I get this stuff out. He absolutely loves it. he's all over me. You know, so there are some fantastic vegan products.
00:23:16
Speaker
foods and stuff for for cats out there so yeah and some treats he absolutely adores them they're vegan he absolutely practically smashes me to the floor when i give them to him is that your uh bright pink dog you're talking about Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. yeah so so why Yeah. Like Katie Price pink dog. yeah Indeed. with With your initials shaved in their leg. Yeah, that's right. There's a callback to an episode a month or so ago. I mean, we we're mentioning the price and and kind of like you say, Kate, it might not be as steep as it is. But, you know, for for somebody who is budget conscious um or in a situation where it's it's having a a big impact. Like we need to understand why we might be paying more money. And and for me, and I say this as somebody who ah there is not a non-human animal under my care at the moment. And in fact, the only only non-human animals I've had under my care have been herbivores. in the past. So this has not been a quandary I've had to have, but the the actual numbers of deaths that are a direct result of the need for pet food or animal food or whatever whatever you want to call
Impact of Pet Food Industry on Animal Welfare
00:24:33
Speaker
it. So those numbers approximately 7 billion land animals are killed globally for the production of cat and dog food. The figure is an estimate for farmed land animals. It excludes the billions of aquatic animals. So as you may know, listeners, um generally speaking, aquatic animals are not counted their deaths. It's it's just done as a weight. So um that's quite a difficult number to quantify precisely but as you might know would it be cat and dog food can sometimes be fish i know cat food often yeah yeah yeah you get fishy dog food don't you so the primary casualties much like human food are chickens over apparently over 6.6 billion killed globally for pet food annually and
00:25:26
Speaker
The number of fish killed for pet food estimated to be in the billions in the USA alone. For context as well, each individual dog or cat on an average meat-based diet may require the lives of over 11 people.
00:25:44
Speaker
animals annually and again if you include fish consumption because they're smaller it sort of requires more fish so that that number's going to jump up so whilst we might be saying oh gosh my pet food bill is four pounds higher ah a week or maybe 14 pounds higher a week i i don't know depending on how many animals are in your care It is the difference between an animal living and not. And i like say, we're having this conversation without without judgment. These are just numbers. But if that helps quantify it, I guess, saying, well, yes, my my pet food bill is going to go up by five pounds a week. And it's not going to be directly contributing to any animals dying. I think that that could help. I did a bit of number crunching and I might have got this wrong. But if we assume that at least 1% of the world is vegan, depending on where you get your sources, it could be 2%, it could be 3%. But if we say just 1%, then we're looking at 70 million land animals killed globally for cats,
00:26:51
Speaker
and or dogs that are under vegans care. Now, there are there are there are lots of discrepancies there. That's assuming every vegan had, you know, vegans have the same proportion of pets and companion animals as non-vegans, et cetera, et cetera. But as a rough ballpark figure,
00:27:10
Speaker
that's the number that that we're talking about. So I i think that's that's significant. and And realistically, it's going to be vegans who have plant-based companion animals before non-vegans, isn't it? I think, would that be a fair assumption? I think, though, Anthony, you might be surprised because there are some people who are out of desperation putting their dogs, for example, on a vegan diet because they have such horrendous skin conditions, or even some who have been like completely at death's door, wasted away, you know, terrible sort of irritable bowel syndrome.
00:27:49
Speaker
And they've gone on to a vegan diet and they they've become healthy. so and some of these people are not vegans themselves. So, you know, perhaps some people may become vegan through their pets, which would be ah a wonderful thing, wouldn't it? All power to them. All power to them. Yeah. yeah that that That is reassuring to hear. That's great. So a question I'm i'm interested in in hearing your opinions on. Let's start with you, Carlos.
00:28:16
Speaker
You're out hunt sabbing. You've got your yeah your pals there who are vegan through and through. theyre at They're out there sabbing a hunt. But later on, conversation turns to that you know their companion animal at home. and you find out that despite being vegan, despite the fact that they're sabbing a hunt, like they feed their dogs at home meat, is that a conversation you want to kind of become more challenging with them and say, oh, why'd you do that? You shouldn't do that. Is that a time to advocate for those animals who are being the victim of the pet food? Yeah, yeah, go straight in, you know no holds up. I think as vegans should... Look, i when I talk to non-vegans, I try to steer away from fringe areas of veganism, like this one.
00:29:05
Speaker
I try to stick back to the main lifestyle changes and and and arguments which are easier to make, because if I can't even make an argument for somebody to make a choice on their own diet...
00:29:16
Speaker
or their own consumption habits, how can I make ah you know an argument for things like not going to a zoo or things which are harder to explain than killing an animal and putting it your mouth? yeah But if I'm talking to other vegans, I'll assume they've done this work already. And I could i could talk about, you know if I find out they're feeding their animal, their companion animals with other animals, then I will call it out. i want I won't call them hypocrites to start the conversation because I don't think that's going to convince anybody. Just going in, start with an insult and then go from there. But I will say, oh, so what you feed them? Oh, I feed them, you know, Purina, chicken, whatever. And I say, well...
00:29:58
Speaker
Isn't it strange that you, you know, avoid consuming animals yourself and then, you know, so sponsoring these industries and then you sponsor those industries to feed your pet? You know, there's other alternatives out there. It might be they never heard of the other alternatives, right?
Advocating for Vegan Pet Diets
00:30:13
Speaker
We don't know where people are on their information scale in the same way that every time I listen to this excellent podcast, I learn something new. So other vegans out there, but they might not even know there's, you know, because they will go to Pets at Home here in the UK, which is like this huge pets pet shop. And they will guy kind of go through the shelves and they will find no plant-based dog food, usually, or cat food. So they might just assume it doesn't even exist.
00:30:38
Speaker
So I think it's hard to kind of call each other out, but not, you know, assume the best. If somebody is already vegan, and you just assume their sound ethically. And then you just assume they're operating from ignorance instead of malice and kind of make the arguments in that way. No, I like that approach. i like I like where you're coming from there. Kate, you you're a lot more British than that though, aren't you? you're not going You're not going to call out a vegan, are you?
00:31:04
Speaker
fair Especially as you've had a ah picky dog that wouldn't eat the plant-based dog food. ah you Are you going to raise that with yeah with your vegan friends? Yeah, I am. Are you?
00:31:16
Speaker
Oh, definitely. You two are great. It's a good job we're talking to you two for inspirational examples. This is good. Carry on. Because, yeah i don' I don't know. I don't regard it as fringe anymore, actually. I do regard it as quite fundamental because...
00:31:34
Speaker
You know, um Andrew Knight, again, he's he's done research on the environmental sustainability of of dog foods. And it's just mind-blowing some of the differences that could make, you know, just saving fresh water, greenhouse gas emissions and stuff. For example, you know, if if all the adult world's dogs went vegan, we could feed the equivalent of the number of people living within the entire EU.
00:32:07
Speaker
Or if all the world's cats went vegan, it would we could feed, again, on top of the population, the whole of the number of people in the UK. And greenhouse gas emissions, there's of amazing stats on that. And we all want to live in ah in a livable planet. So, yeah, I i do...
00:32:30
Speaker
I kind of, well, how I approach it is well, I've got this vegan food. Do you want to try it with your, would you like some? Would you like to try and give some to your cat, you know, or your dog or what have you? I i kind of, I've got all these different samples of tins and dried stuff and I i hand them out to people saying, just, you know, try it, see if your dog likes it. So, but I kind of, I've been stumped.
00:32:55
Speaker
a couple of times, just like with my mouth hanging open, when people who are scooby-doo are vegan. Like Scooby-Doo. Yeah.
00:33:06
Speaker
People who like say, oh you know, oh I raw feed my dog, but I only use well only give them the pasture-fed, regenerative stuff, you know, kind of ah ethically slain,
00:33:22
Speaker
you know you know, in a slaughterhouse where they play lullaby music. And I'm like, I'm not even quite sure what to say to somebody like that. I think they've got a little way to go. i suppose at least they kind of, are they telling me because they want me to confirm that they're still, ah that I still think of them as ah as a good vegan person or something.
Raw Feeding Misconceptions and Veterinary Education
00:33:44
Speaker
I don't know. I'm trying not to judge, but i just find, you know, it's raw The raw side, i guess people just don't know. They haven't seen the science, and I would point them in the direction of of the science and stuff.
00:33:58
Speaker
and And actually how um raw feeding is so dangerous. I've got a friend who's ah a vet and ah a vegan who works in a kind of in in ah and ah and a practice, and she said every time a raw fed dog comes in, they have to gown up, they have to, you know, put protective git gloves and everything on because you don't want to catch anything from their drool, you know, full of bacteria and parasites and goodness days what and people have got their raw fed animals around elderly people around children around, you know, vulnerable people it's actually really dangerous I don't think people realise And it does shock me that people have, you know, even vegans have fallen for the greenwashing, healthwashing stuff coming from the raw food industry. That shocks me. ah You know, what to say?
00:34:56
Speaker
Powerful marketing, powerful marketing. where you've You've touched on a couple of really good strategies there for advocating for the victims of the pet food industry there, Kate, in terms of having samples of plant-based pet foods to to share. and indeed referring to science. Carlos, you've mentioned like Socratic questioning and kind of ah leading to pointing out contradictions and things like that. Do we have any other techniques that we think are really good advocacy tools for encouraging folk to try plant-based food for for animals? I've got a friend who's got a beautiful dog. I've forgotten the name of
00:35:38
Speaker
the the breed but quite often he he kind of um is out running around full of energy and people will come up to go oh what a beautiful dog she goes yes yes isn't he have you noticed his shiny coat oh yes it's so shiny have you seen his have you noticed his muscle definition oh yes have you seen his bright eyes and how much energy oh yes and then she'll go oh do you want to know why they go oh yes and she'll go well he's vegan and I thought go you yeah so he is a beautiful dog I think that's a really good one
00:36:19
Speaker
Yes, stud dogs to ah to show off. any Any extra tips, Carlos? Yeah, I was about to say, if you have pets and are vegan and feed them a vegan diet, a plant-based diet as you should, and then have your companion animal be an example of how healthy animals they can be. So if somebody, you know, if you're meeting people who are not vegan and they ask about, well, what you feed it, what you feed your pet, you know, just say proudly that it's a plant-based diet and they're a healthy animal. And if your friends ask, but don't even, if your pet misses meat, just let your friends ask the pet themselves and see what the pet answers.
00:36:57
Speaker
Yes, exactly. they They cannot confirm or deny it. Therefore, we can't make any assumptions. Yeah, I think as well, like, I just want to say, like, if you've got a plant based companion animal or animal in your care,
00:37:14
Speaker
that isn't in the best of health. Well, did you know that animals that consume animal products also get ill too? You know, like yeah I'm not disputing your examples there. Like, of of of course, we want to celebrate that. But like, we you can't health shame a dog, can you? Because it doesn't know what you're saying. But like, it I happen to know a vegan, a real passionate vegan couple, and they look after lots of cats and they're all plant-based and they're always bloody ill. But I think they just adopt that they they just adopt the cats that aren't needy. And, you know, they they were they were eating meat-based diets before and they were very ill. And, you know, if they've not improved or they've only improved slightly on a plant-based diet, well, you you know, maybe it can't work a miracle, but like animal based diets lead to people being ill as well, don't they? as As well as humans. So totally. So I'd just like to say, if we have vegan pets or plant based pets, as I should say,
00:38:20
Speaker
Then we need to also be educating our vets. You know, it's really important because unfortunately, so many vets are like hand in glove with industry. A lot of veterinary practices are owned by industry such as Purina and people like that. So, you know, they are...
00:38:39
Speaker
Somehow they've, some some people they've just got it in their heads that dogs and cats, or dogs in particular, have got to eat meat in order to be healthy. And I had, I had did have a run-in with my vet because few, was it about three years ago, my my dog Betty had lymphoma.
00:38:59
Speaker
and And it was from um a collar, an insecticidal collar that she was wearing. We took that off and the vet actually gave her four to six weeks to live. And later he said it was two weeks.
00:39:13
Speaker
And I then started doubling down. She was vegan, but doubled down on all sorts of super foods, just like us. You know, dogs respond to super foods as well, you know, like berries and carrots and all sorts. And if anybody wants to read up all about that,
00:39:28
Speaker
just look at the find the plant powered dog book it's absolutely brilliant that's a whole section on cancer for a start and um he thought he he was looking at me like I had two heads and he he was saying but how can you give a dose of of like berries you know he was just horrified anyway when I came back a year later and she was still alive he was like really, really surprised. And then when I came back two years later and she was still alive and her all her lymphoma had disappeared, he couldn't believe it. And now I've contacted him for three years and she's still alive and full of beans.
00:40:05
Speaker
And he was like, oh, you've made my day, you've made my day. And my partner, she's doing a ah vegan dog nutrition course. And I was like, you know, honestly, the the turnaround could not be more special you know, because he was so anti and now he's he's he believes that at least it's it's not unhealthy it's not unhealthy and that and that dogs can thrive on a plant-based diet so amazing yeah yeah amazing never underestimate the power of a persistent vegan fantastic kate and fantastic everyone listening who's been able to make that that change or or just keep that up for animals in their care that's uh amazing stuff Right, well, controversial topic, as we've said, and it's it's an interesting one. And we'd be surprised if there weren't several of you listening to this, shouting at us or feeling moved to get
Engagement and Feedback
00:41:07
Speaker
in touch. So we would love to hear from you. Please do get in touch. We're only doing this episode in the first place because ah listener Neil suggested it. So we do take your feedback seriously.
00:41:19
Speaker
Here's how to contact us. To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We see ourselves as a collective. Our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:41:41
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. enough of the falafel at gmail dot com And remember, folks, that we absolutely love if you can leave us ah a star rating on your podcast app. um If you can leave a comment beneath the show, you can definitely do that on Spotify or just share it with somebody. Send it to someone who you think would be interested, particularly a vet. You can skip to that part where Kate was giving that excellent anecdote. So thank you for that, Kate. And thank you to Carlos for your contributions for this episode. Tell us, Carlos, when's the next Enough of the Falafel outing happening? Yeah, so that will be Vegan Week, which will come out on Monday, the 19th of January. Anyway, that's Enough of the Falafel for this episode. Thank you, Carlos. Thank you, Anthony, for your brilliant contributions.
00:42:35
Speaker
And thank you, everybody who's been listening to this. I've been Kate, and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:42:50
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster.
00:43:01
Speaker
We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com. And sometimes if you're lucky at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:43:31
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:43:52
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:44:07
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.