Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
243- Is it YOUR fault if your child isn't vegan?
66 Plays12 hours ago
If some vegans have children who become vegan themselves, why do others have children who end up consuming animal products? In this episode we hear from two vegans- Mark and Shane- each of whom have children who consume animal products (even if occasionally). Aspiring parent and career-long educator Ant also weighs in from time to time!
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
*************
Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
*******************
Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Shane, Mark & Anthony
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Purpose
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody. Now who's to blame for all of these non-vegan children you see running around eating McDonald's then? I'm Anthony and for this episode of Vegan Talk I'm also joined by Shane and... So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble.
00:00:19
Speaker
That's not what butter's used for. Brrrr! Rootsie. Take your flat-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry.
00:00:30
Speaker
True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems with things. What is this?
00:00:40
Speaker
What kind of movie is this? It's comedy. Go on the media. Any form of social injustice has
00:00:49
Speaker
As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:58
Speaker
cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and hi everyone, this is Mark here. Welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you for being here. everyone, this is Shane. This is Vegan Talk, which is where we discuss a topic related to veganism or animal rights in depth. And it's something that's on our minds or it's in the zeitgeist, but it's also a topic that has what you might call a long shelf life. And that means that previous episodes are still relevant today.
00:01:27
Speaker
And you can listen to our entire library of past episodes in your podcast feed. Indeed. Lucky old you I reckon there's, there must be getting close to 100, 120 maybe of those future peruse. You can even re-listen to old ones. And actually, we re we releasesd re-released a few episodes over the summer holidays in the
Exploring Vegan Childhood
00:01:52
Speaker
UK. back in August 2025 when we were taking break from recording some of the ones that we particularly liked one of which was a conversation with someone called Logan who is now 13 old he was at the time And he has been vegan pretty much all his life. His mum is vegan too. And we talked about, you know, what what's it like being a vegan child? What's it like having basically been vegan your whole life? And that was a really interesting conversation.
Parental Responsibility and Dietary Choices
00:02:23
Speaker
We're in a similar ballpark today, but we are going to be talking about, well, who is it that needs to take responsibility, if anybody,
00:02:33
Speaker
for a child, a young person's diet lifestyle with regards to animal rights. We know of folk. We we also had a ah vegan talk episode where we spoke to Tom, who again, he's vegan. He's he's raising his son. to be vegan, who who is probably three years old now, I would say. But actually, we know that for a lot of folk, that's not the case. You you might be vegan yourself, but your children might not be, or they might be some of the time or or something like that. So the broader question is, are parents responsible
00:03:10
Speaker
for their children's outlook on animal rights. And before we start, we we wanted to just firstly put a a statement out there in terms of non-judgment, as as we always do with these things. You know, we're all learning, we're all on a journey with these things. But I i don't know about anybody else, but I work with families, I work with young people, that's that's my career. And there's ah a horrible, I think anyway, culture of parent shaming, of, you know, I've worked in schools where As soon as anything goes wrong, it's like, oh, well, you know what? You know what their mum's like or oh their dad's always doing this or what have you. And that's that's just not constructive. And it's it's not fair, um in my opinion. So i just wanted to kind of put that out there beforehand. We we might be discussing this this topic, but we're certainly not wanting to do any shaming or anything like that.
Cultural Influences on Diet and Autonomy
00:03:59
Speaker
So if we get the ball rolling, Mark, if I come to you first, like most people in the world aren't vegan, yet I like to phrase it in in those terms. But nonetheless, they're going to have an impact in their child's, I'm assuming they have children, their child's outlook with regards to animals, with regards to animal rights, with regards to whether or not they're consuming animal products.
00:04:28
Speaker
Do you feel that that is an active process in the case of somebody who's not vegan or is it just that they're part of a culture that is carnist that isn't vegan and so it's that it's just a passive process to what extent do you think there's a sort of active responsibility going on there my observations from being a parent to two kids and from having been around other people's kids Being a kid myself, obviously, my my observations ont on the personalities of people is that humans come out with a bedrock personality already there baked in. It is added to throughout their life.
00:05:07
Speaker
But parents that think they can mold their kids in the shape that they want them to, like my parents did, fail because it isn't the way it works. it isn't A person doesn't come out as ah as a blank slate.
00:05:20
Speaker
that that that's That's just not true as far as I... can see. I'm not saying I'm correct with everyone that and around the world, but my observations lead me to believe that my position has to be that their people they're they're not fully formed, but they're as good as, as soon as they're born.
00:05:40
Speaker
They will have strong likes and dislikes and preferences and emphases and all this From the very get-go and you and you see this in two-year-olds even younger and you really see it when they start kicking into their you know five six seven eight nine ten particularly and so on so that was my position before I had kids it's still my position and therefore my position when it comes to raising kids who are conscious about the impact they have
00:06:11
Speaker
around the food choices they make and the lifestyle they have and their outlook and attitude towards non-human animals. My attitude to towards that is that their attitude is already there. If I try and break that and reintroduce something else, it's it's a disaster waiting to happen. It's very old school parenting. It was rife, at least in Ireland when I was growing up, where I was expected to be of the same religious mind, for instance, as my parents were. They were very stanched Catholic. That was a disaster. i mean, if insisting a small person act in a certain way because you think they should
00:06:46
Speaker
worked, I'd be a meat-eating, church-going, mid-right-wing boar. So it just doesn't work. It isn't how life is. It isn't how humans are. And to try and act that way is really destructive.
00:07:02
Speaker
And it was so common up ah common up until recently for parents to expect certain behaviors from their kids because it was the it was the way that they were brought up. And it is stifling. It is an awful way of of thinking and of relating to up to to your kids, particularly.
00:07:17
Speaker
So and when it came to animals, all the food that I buy, and I'm the sort of principal sort of food purchaser and probably the main cook in the house, it's always vegan. Everything I give them is vegan. When they have their own money,
00:07:30
Speaker
or when they're at a friend's party or at a friend's house, it's their choice. And I've told them this over and over again. It is up to you. what what what you and If someone offers you slice a slice of birthday cake that obviously is going to have dairy in it, it's up to you if you want to take it or not. Even the same with with their meat. Because meat meat is so visceral, both of them completely avoid meat. They're staunch vegetarians when they go out. And my son is typically a staunch vegan when when when when when when he has that power. and he's at a friend's birthday and he's offered a slice of cake, he will typically say no unless he knows it's vegan and he's eight.
00:08:04
Speaker
So again, that that is his decision. I've helped guide that in that direction or at least instill that as a as an option in his brain, but it's up to him then to choose it. And ah I can't impose my my will on them. I can only set a template for them to emulate if they want.
00:08:22
Speaker
I insist that they refer to animals as he or she, not it. I think that's a huge psychological poison when people start ref referring to sentient beings as it. It sets the pace for everything else. So there are a few things that I sort of insist on and that I and maintain myself.
00:08:40
Speaker
they're They're their own free agents and ultimately they will decide what they want to put in their mouth. Hopefully by the time they get into thinking adolescence, they will arrive at the same conclusions I did.
00:08:52
Speaker
But that's up to that. Yeah.
Vegan Upbringing vs. Societal Norms
00:08:53
Speaker
No, thank you, Mark. that's That's a real nice introduction to things and gives a a real great context for for your situation and your observations. Shane, I'd be interested in hearing similar from yourself as much as you're happy to share. But also if if you have any observations of, and again, it's up to you how how how far you go down this line, but I'm interested from a non-vegan perspective as well, like In a sense, we're the wrong people to ask, but we will have a conscious thought about and stance about animal rights and animal sentience and what's the right thing to do. Whereas I think a lot of folk almost don't or are neutral or just don't consider it. And I'm interested to what extent we think that there's a conscious passing on of values
00:09:46
Speaker
in that majority group of people or not. But get take things whichever direction you want to go. If you want to kind of give your background and with this first thing, then go for it or or go with what I've said. Okay, I guess I'll just preface it by saying that I have one child, she's 16, and she is not vegan. She is not vegetarian. Also, I'm married, my husband is not vegan or vegetarian. I've been vegetarian for 40 years, and I've been vegan for almost 10 um So I was not vegan when she was born, but I was vegetarian. So I guess what I i would say about the society and the culture is I don't think that the society is is intentionally passing on carnist philosophy.
00:10:29
Speaker
I think that it's just, I don't think most people think about it at all. I think that they either want to be ignorant or they are ignorant about what happens. um I have someone in my family who is over 70 years old. And recently I had to explain to them that cows...
00:10:47
Speaker
milk doesn't just appear that the cow actually has to give birth. And you would think that somebody who's over 70 years old would know that, but they don't. If I can interject, I remember explaining that to my nan who has lived in the Cambridgeshire countryside her whole life. I explained that to her when she was 87. So I'm not, I'm not saying any names, but you know, that's fun could be a similar situation.
00:11:13
Speaker
um But I think what what Mark was saying about children being born, being fully formed is is very true because I, ever since my my daughter was a baby, fed her vegetarian food, I'm the primary cook in my family and I only cook vegan food. So if anybody in my family wants to eat dinner and they don't want to make it themselves, I also make the grocery list and all of that. So we it's vegan here in my house.
00:11:44
Speaker
But despite all of that, my child did it did not go, you know, that's not what she's embraced. And I think that it sometimes depends on personality. Because if you have a child who really values um conformity, because I think that a lot of times veganism comes down to conformity, is that, you know, if you look at why people say that they're not vegan anymore, often one of the main reasons they give is just because they didn't want to feel like different, they wanted didn't want to be left out. And I was never that kind of kid who cared about
00:12:16
Speaker
being different. I like being different. And I went vegetarian when I was at 13 and it didn't bother me to that, that I was different from everybody. But I have a child who doesn't want to stand out. She doesn't want to be different. um Even though she was raised by me and, and I told her about animals, you know, in an age appropriate way of, you know, what happens and why, why i believed what I believed, but she just wants to be like everybody else. And, you know, she doesn't have a problem eating. eating meat. I will add to that, that I have friends, we're not in such close contact anymore, but they were vegetarian, like throughout their whole marriage, and their two now grown up daughters were raised vegetarian. Now, both parents and one of the daughters are all vegan. But around the age of 18, 19, the one daughter who had been raised vegetarian um went very aggressively ah against that and became very meaty in their diet. And that was a similar thing to, I think, what you're saying, Shane, in terms of like not not being afraid of being different. It became like an act of rebellion. um So the the opposite of conformity. So the one daughter was, you know, wanting to conform with her family, but then the other went against it. And I think I would not be surprised they're,
00:13:45
Speaker
ah Perhaps we won't have the data now because they're I imagine there haven't been that many children who've been raised vegan ah just in terms of percentages of the population, what have you. But perhaps in 10, 20 years time, there there may be a a reasonably significant proportion children.
00:14:04
Speaker
grown up children who have been raised vegan who will go against that because there's you know that it it happens in adolescence doesn't it is not uncommon for for children to kind of want to rally against their folks to show that they're their own person um Or maybe there's a, you know, a disagreement, maybe they feel like they've been repressed from a dietary point of view or or something like that. But i I think that could be a thing too, couldn't it? Which is ah an interesting quandary and into, you know, is there anything we can do about that?
00:14:38
Speaker
Or do we just have to say, well, whilst it might hurt more, it in a sense, does it make any difference if your next door neighbour is vegan but your own son isn't?
00:14:50
Speaker
Do the animals care? I think ah sometimes the the last person that should be explaining these things to... sons and daughters and and relatives and others, but it is the parents or relatives themselves. and Oftentimes these messages come best from sort of a neutral outsider, if you like.
00:15:11
Speaker
in terms of the family. and messages Can you say why, Mark? what Why is that? Why is that? Because there's a lot of filters and history, inevitably, that people have with their immediate family and extended family.
00:15:24
Speaker
And that might not place them in the best position to be explaining something as fundamental and in a sense as demanding, if you like, as switching to a plant-based diet or becoming a vegan.
00:15:37
Speaker
Maybe the last person that should be explaining this to an individual is her father, mother, brother, sister. I'm not saying that that's always the case. People have different relationships with family and um all of that, but oftentimes a yeah yeah it's it's best coming from someone else. um it It can be delivered in a purer form with without the baggage that that might come along inevitably with it coming from someone who is so close to you. you know And in terms of the movement, the animals, it it doesn't matter...
00:16:10
Speaker
who's delivering the message as long as it's been received in the best possible way by the person being told that message, I suppose. What a parent can do, two things a parent should do, in my opinion, is realise that they they're a lot less responsible for the outcome of child's personality than they wish they were. And the best you can do in that circumstance is to provide a living example.
00:16:34
Speaker
for them to refer to in quiet moments of reflection that they will be having probably when you aren't even there. And you can show them that A, it's an option and B, that it it's it the outcomes are good health wise, positivity, having a more realistic outlook towards the world around you, a less destructive and less sort of almost paranoid outlook that a lot of meat eaters have. So, yeah, it's but it's by providing an example and understanding that the the child's going to do what the child's going to do.
00:17:06
Speaker
And you have a lot less say in all of that than, as I say, you probably wish or expected that that you have. Yeah, i I mean, I agree so much with what what Mark is saying. I mean, first of all, the whole point of raising a child is to teach them to be independent, to think for themselves. I mean, that is the goal of of raising a child. And yeah, when they hit those teenage years, they're going to rebel. And what you don't want to do is say, well, you have to be like this, because that's what they're going to rebel against for absolutely, you know, the what the thing that you're putting your foot down against, that's what they're going to do. Well, no, i I'm going to do what I want to do. So that's why like Marcus, like I've never tried to make that that kind of issue. But I've tried to model certain behaviors and worldviews And push back when they would say, oh, I want normal milk or whatever and push back. Well, you know, there it's you want dairy milk. It's not normal. that You know, oat milk is also normal. You know, you just push back against, you know you know, things like that.
00:18:09
Speaker
But I think he's right, too, about how that often the people that we're closest to are the hardest ones for us to persuade because we are so entwined in those relationships and that sometimes it's so much better coming from an outside source. And I think that a lot of times, not and nothing to do with veganism, but a lot of times I will say something to my daughter and then a friend or a parent, another parent or a teacher will say it. And then she'll say, oh, they said this and this. And and I'll think, well, I told you that too. But you know hearing it from someone else is what made the difference.
00:18:48
Speaker
Yeah, that that I mean, that's very true for sure, isn't it? i I think as well, something I've experienced when I have tried to be persuasive or I've at least been very invested in the outcome of somebody's vegan journey It's that it it just can't end well.
00:19:10
Speaker
Like that that there's the best it can go is is kind of almost neutral, if if you like. but But there's so much potential for relationships to be adversely affected by it and i've experienced this with family and with friends and yeah in in both instances you just kind of can get yourself unwittingly in a position where you i think best case scenario you're really invested in how vegan they are worst case scenario they're really aware
00:19:44
Speaker
that you're feeling that way. And if we think of the kind of natural influence that as as parents, as older, familiar influences we can have children,
00:20:00
Speaker
younger children, kind of putting that kind of pressure somebody. It's not a great thing, is it? and and And I think that's completely separate to wanting your child to have a moral and ethical outlook on the world.
00:20:16
Speaker
that's I think that's different because that's very broad, isn't it? But to say, I really want you to be vegan, of of course, that covers a broad range of things, but there's there's an element of identity in there isn't isn't it particularly if we're framing it in that way we might say i'd love it if you were to make as many moral and ethical or morally or ethically thought out decisions as as you feel you're able to that's very different to saying i want you to be a vegan and i think mark you touched on that right at the start in terms of if somebody wants to kind of put you in a plaster cast and and
00:20:58
Speaker
put you know take the mold off and you are you're on an identikit this person or that person or this identity or that identity there's there's something ethically a bit squiffy there i think oh absolutely and yeah and you're spot on and uh not not only does it doesn't make it ethically tenuous but it it presents the the argument, the the sort of moral position in a completely corrupted way. if if If a child or anyone else and thinks they should be vegan or anything else because they'd be letting someone else down if they weren't, rather than it being about their personal relationship with the world around them,
00:21:38
Speaker
That has corrupted that belief system by putting another person, a parent in this case, into the mix where that person shouldn't be. It shouldn't be about, oh, I shouldn't do this because dad will be really disappointed or I'm going to do this because it's going to piss off dad.
00:21:53
Speaker
Dad shouldn't be in this equation really in that regard at all. This should be about the son or daughter's relationship with the animals around them in front of them, the non-human animals. the The expectations or demands or ah feeling of of letting someone else down that the parents might introduce is the worst way of producing a morally thinking person.
00:22:17
Speaker
That's the worst way of doing it. And it almost inevitably will collapse because it depends on something so abstract and filled with fear and sense of disappointment that it's bound to collapse. It isn't about having a healthy relationship with the non-human world around you.
00:22:33
Speaker
It's about letting dad down or pissing dad off. you know and You just got to take that out of the equation. And you do that by not insisting on it and presenting it in that sort of way. You provide a bedrock of moral sort of a bedro moral compass and they come to their own conclusions. If they're a a free-thinking, unencumbered adult, they will inevitably arise arrive at a vegan position because nothing else really makes sense.
00:22:59
Speaker
And if they want to make sense, that's
Challenges and Misconceptions About Veganism
00:23:01
Speaker
what they'll be. i think... it's It's a lot like religion and that, I mean, but if you're whatever religion, let's say you're a Christian, you're going to take your child to church. You're going to read the Bible or Bible stories to them. You're going to present all of this. um religion idea ideology to them. And in the end, you cannot make them believe this or that or whatever. And I'm sure there's plenty of parents who want their kids to believe whatever it is they believe about religion and are grieved because their child does not. But you cannot make them. And then often the parent who is upset that their child doesn't believe what they believe just makes the the kid feel worse or or feel
00:23:46
Speaker
unwelcome because they don't believe that and they don't like being judged because they don't. So I think the other thing that we need to think about is that every child in the Western world, in Europe, in the United States, in Australia, New Zealand,
00:24:04
Speaker
is surrounded by a culture that tells them in every way and every single day that it is okay to eat meat and it is okay to see animals as for entertainment and to wear clothes.
00:24:17
Speaker
And you're it's very hard to fight against that. when every I mean, I cannot drive down the road. Every single place is is offering me. Every commercial you know is showing this. So everything they're surrounded by is is reinforcing that. And i don't know how you can fight against that kind of just constant assault.
00:24:38
Speaker
you know just but you can You can provide an alternative, but um I think it's very hard for for a child Who doesn't want to embrace that, to embrace that. And i' it's so interesting to me when there when there are kids who do are vegan from a very young age, even though their peers aren't they and they're ah maybe other members of their family aren't. I'm just like, wow, that's just so interesting. Why are they like that when other kids are not like that? Yeah, fascinating, isn't it? There is an ancient belief system, it's it's almost dead now, called a Zoroastrianism. i I'm not sure if you're aware of it. It's one of the very first, it predates Judaism and Christianity, obviously, and Islam by thousands of years. And it it was the first sort of monotheistic religion. And it was big in Syria and in Iraq and places like like like that for a long time. And and whilst it's a lot of their more esoteric beliefs are hard to get into,
00:25:34
Speaker
One of their basic concepts is that and the individual is most free when they live in a society with other free individuals. right And that includes ah non-human animals and slaves. So anytime that they ah invaded somewhere else, they would immediately send all the slaves in that area free because they weren't free if there people around them who weren't free.
00:25:54
Speaker
And there's a whole lot of psychological and practical reasons why thinking like that is really beneficial. But their basic sort of concept was, yeah, right thoughts, right words and right actions. It was quite like Buddhism, even though it was it was taking place in a very different time in a very different place. and That is how I sort of, ah I quite like that Zoroastrian sort of outlook on society, that part of it. And people should be doing the right things for the right reasons.
00:26:19
Speaker
And that' that sort of sums up the point I was making earlier. Doing the right the the right thing for the wrong reasons is good, is half good because you're doing the right thing. But if you're doing it because you because you don't want to let someone else down sort of thing, then that's the wrong reason.
00:26:32
Speaker
So um we need to instill in people the the concept that that freedom for one is freedom for all and vice versa. And you should be doing the right things for the right reasons. That's the best way of doing anything. And halfway there isn't good enough. Okay, I'd like to pose a scenario now. If I start with Shane, you can choose the the situation in terms of, you know, whether this is online or in the supermarket queue or or or whatever. But we've already spoken, you've both mentioned kind of like correcting a carnist ah terminology, I suppose, whether it be normal milk instead of dairy milk or um it instead of she or he for an animal. In that, let's say you come across a parent who is perpetuating a carnist
00:27:21
Speaker
language or worldview to their child. So it's not Father Christmas. It's not the tooth fairy. It's, ah oh, you know, that ah the animals don't feel pain.
00:27:32
Speaker
um You know, when it's when it's time for the animals to die when they're old, then we just eat them there. Something that's just an out and out incorrect statement. What's influencing you in terms of to what degree you would correct that? I mean, you might say, like I probably would, I'm terribly British, I'm not going to correct anybody. That's that's just a social faux pas. But like, is there a is there a line beyond which you you would say, now I need to say something there because that's actually not true. That's palpably not true.
00:28:04
Speaker
So I was kicked out of a ah group one time. it was like ah like a neighborhood mom group. And they like it was supposed to be like a way to make friends with moms of like young kids. And they had like a little um text chain and they would like plan play dates and stuff like that. And then they would frequently say like, oh, you know, we're going to all get tickets to the circus or, oh, I've got passes to SeaWorld. And then I would go on and say, hey, the circus isn't really a good idea because they're abusive to animals. And do we want to be teaching our kids about this and blah, blah, blah, blah. blah And then finally, like the organizer of the group messaged me and said like,
00:28:43
Speaker
hey, you realize you're supposed to be trying to make friends here. This is not the way to make friends. And I was like, well, I guess I'm not really shouldn't be part of this group. She's like, well I guess not. Bye. And that was the end of that. so but I will, you know, I will say things. Now, if it's somebody I'm in front of, I might just say, well, um you know, did you, do you know, I mean, most people know that I'm vegan, but they, I don't know, I find people often forget, even my own family forgets. But I'll say, um well, you know that I'm vegan and and what what I found out is that this or that or what I realized is is actually this. And, um you know, so... So you might take that into consideration. I might say something like that. I mean, especially if I'm in front of the child, I'm going to try to be really like soft about how I say it. And even if, and even if I'm not, I'm not going to like, you know, say, well, that's wrong. You know, why are you teaching your kid that? But yeah, I will, I will gently correct. And I've been where like, I'm driving my daughter and her friends somewhere and they're saying blah, blah, blah, blah. blah And I'll say, well, you know, and my daughter's like, oh, here we go. there
Teaching Animal Rights to Children
00:29:46
Speaker
we go you know but yeah i'm gonna say they're like oh yeah i forgot that you were vegan or you know whatever so go you shane up the revolution what what about you mark are you are you like me and and terribly afraid that someone's gonna turn around and say are you telling me how parent my child or words to that event no i'm not no i'm i'm afraid direct um sometimes too direct uh including around kids, if people are saying something that is patently untrue or just ah an advertising lie or whatever, I'll bring them up in it in in as non-confrontational way as I can. But yeah, I can't sort of abide that sort of nonsense, especially if it's coming from a young person who
00:30:31
Speaker
unless they're challenged, then it will just automatically absorb it as a truth. Yeah, I'm i'm very forth forthright. I'll try and avoid certain situations where I know that my my opinion is going to be expressed.
00:30:46
Speaker
I'll avoid certain people or certain groups or certain social situations that I know ill find provocative. Yeah, i' I'm very upfront about it. I consider it sort of a disservice to what I stand for unless I am.
00:31:02
Speaker
i try not to be antisocial about it. I hear it less and less, I think. But when I am provoked, yeah, it's sort of all systems go, yeah, yeah. yeah I don't know whether you two find this, but I find that i I have very little choice in whether I'm Correcting somebody or something. And like for for context, I currently don't have any children, but I am spending my working days with children in an outdoor wild environment. So there's a lot of, oh, I found a spider. Oh, I found a worm. oh can i take this shield bug home or whatever so there's there's lots of means for conversations around animals and their rights and i think you were kind of touching on this mark but i just don't find i can i can avoid saying something because it's i don't know whether it's just really well drilled in with me you know i've i've
00:32:01
Speaker
been actively vegan for for 15 years now but just or if there's a conversation sometimes we have you know adult communities um so there's no children there but conversation around the fireside might start talking about something with it and and i i can't not rebuff someone i i will not bring things up generally.
00:32:24
Speaker
um And I think that's partly because in the in the city that I work in, I was quite well known for a little while because me and my wife at the time, like we started and ran the only vegan cafe and restaurant in the city and and it was quite central. And so lots of people kind of knew us as the vegans, you know? um So ah i kind of sometimes feel a bit shy bringing things up. But if Yeah, if a child is saying, oh, the the worm wants me to take it home or the spider wants to, it's like, no, no, it doesn't. No, no, no.
00:32:59
Speaker
No, I need you to hear that it doesn't. Or I need to correct you on this thing that, you know, oh, it's ridiculous that vegans, um you know, have their have their sausages looking like sausages or whatever. That's a ridiculous thing. Like, I can't not correct somebody on that. So i when i used to be a teacher and I taught, I taught for like over 11 years and I taught middle school, which is i like, oh, I don't know, 11 to 13 years old. And I can remember when these sometimes kids would say things and i you know I'd say, oh, well, I don't agree with that. Or you know this is what I believe. And I'm a vegetarian, which they would always be like, oh, but aren't you a veterinarian? and kind of what That was a good time to write vegetarian. Let's learn a new word.
00:33:44
Speaker
But the I just remember that one one time, one year, i worked in these what we call T buildings or like temporary buildings because the school building wasn't itself wasn't big enough. So it was like these buildings that were out built outside.
00:33:58
Speaker
And sometimes like little dogs or or animals would come there because I'd follow somebody to school or they just running over from the neighborhood or whatever. And the school that I was at was a very low income. Um, a lot of, uh, students like refugees. And this was a while ago. So I even like had students who are like from Bosnia, Croatia during like the war and everything. And, um,
00:34:18
Speaker
you know i guess a dog had run over one time and some kids were like kicking it. And so kids ran over to my room and they were like, Miss, Miss, they're they're hurting that dog over there. you know We knew you would care about that and you would want to help the dog. So they came to me to let me know about the dog. So then here I am going to get the dog. I had like a very large closet. had to put the dog in the closet. had to take the dog to the, you know, rescue after school. But, you know, they would come to me because they, you know, they do care about animals. And when they find out that you're someone else who cares, I mean, kids being kids, they do want to shock you and talk tell you all the horrible things that have happened. But also, you know, they they come to you for
Listener Engagement and Community
00:34:56
Speaker
help. And so I think that, you know, being that kind of person is is an excellent way to be for kids. They know that you're someone they can go to.
00:35:06
Speaker
You're someone who cares. which Which touches on what we've already said in terms of being ah you know the most powerful thing, just is being a living example of somebody that cares about animals, that that respects their rights, and and you can kind of demonstrate how...
00:35:22
Speaker
how to do that can't you it's a yeah a really powerful yeah not not indoctrinating them i would i you know not sitting there saying oh this is what you should believe but if you know if in the context of i taught english so in the context of we're reading a story and they're talking about an animal and then we might have a discussion about well do you think that was right what happened or you think that was wrong and why you know oh well this is kind of the way how i see it you know So situations like that can come up where you can lead a discussion where they think about it instead of just going with what the prevailing cultural view is.
00:35:57
Speaker
Absolutely. No, that's brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Shane. And thank you so much, Mark, for for sharing not only your opinions and perspectives on this, but actually your own context. That's a vulnerable thing to do. And i I know this will have been of great value to all of you lovely listeners out there. So thank you both for that. And speaking back to you, fantastic listeners, we know that this topic will have affected lots of you in lots of different ways. And it's been so great hearing Shane and Mark's perspective. And I've weighed in as well. But goodness me, we'd love it even more if we could hear some more perspectives from from some of you who are listening. So ah do send us an email with your thoughts at the following address.
00:36:41
Speaker
To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We see ourselves as a collective. Our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:37:00
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. enough of the falafel at gmail dot com And as well, folks, if you want to get episodes of ah Vegan Week or Vegan Talk coming up and popping up on your phone or device straight away, there'll be a subscribe button that you can press on your podcast player. um And obviously, if you can share things with other folk, that is a great way of getting the enough of the falafel joy spread to as many folk as possible. Speaking of which, Mark, when is our next episode coming out?
00:37:36
Speaker
The next Enough of the Falafel episode will be available from the 2nd of February and Monday. And that will be with Julie, Paul and Anthony. And it will be our regular news show, Vegan Week.
00:37:47
Speaker
Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thanks to Mark and Anthony for all of your contributions. And thanks again to everybody for listening. This is Shane and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:38:05
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:38:20
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:38:46
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:39:07
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from