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00:00:01
Should We Be Upset at Adobe?
2.8k Plays5 months ago
Adobe recently made some changes to their Terms of Service and it's caused quite an uproar in the photography community. In this episode, Blake and Matt talk about some of the changes as well as Adobe's response to them.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Hi everybody, welcome back to another frame of mind podcast episode with my buddy Blake Rudess from XF64 Academy or X64 Academy. You're probably by that domain now. but but ah My name is Matt Kloskowski from matk.com. Blake and I are both ah photo educators in space and all that fun stuff. This is a it is a, it's a podcast, but we do actually record ourselves recording the podcast. So you can always swing by the website at matk.com.
00:00:38
Speaker
Click podcast if you want to watch us talking to each other. But there are no visuals for this. It's just us talking about the latest news.
Addressing Adobe's New Terms of Service
00:00:46
Speaker
this is kind of like we we Blake and I have another topic, and we're going to do that one next. and So look for that one within the within the next week. But this is kind of like an emergency one on the Adobe Terms of Service because we've been getting quite ah quite a few questions on some of the changes that they have. For sure. Lots of emails coming in. That's the beauty of being someone that people can trust, Matt, I guess. Yeah, it's ah so so Adobe came out with some new versions, I guess, a couple of weeks ago. Just some updates to all the apps.
00:01:20
Speaker
And in that somehow got rolled in some a little pop-up that allowed basically let you click on, I agree to the updated terms of service. um It looks like somebody did some digging into those terms of service and it started this big hole uproar in that Adobe wants to take your photos, sell them to other people, use them for free, not pay you, basically owns all of your photos. And that's not true.
Personal Anecdotes and Light Moments
00:01:51
Speaker
like Oh, wait. I got big news. buts up big big new that Dude, this trumps all Adobe terms of service updates. I can't believe it hasn't made it through the photography community yet, honestly.
00:02:08
Speaker
big I broke 80 in golf. I don't even know what that means. I mean, I shot a score with a seven in front of me. I don't even know. my The extent of golf for me is happy Gilmore. ah Yeah, I don't know. I really don't know how that hasn't made it through the photography yet. i'm Hey, I'm proud of you though. I really am. I think that's that's a great, because I know you've been working on that for a while. So even though I know nothing about it, I can support my friend. I shot 81 a couple of times. I shot an 80 on an easy course one time. So I didn't really count that because
00:02:43
Speaker
My home course is a little bit harder, and but yeah, shot 78 the other day,
Understanding Terms Across Companies
00:02:47
Speaker
so anyway. I think if I went golfing with you, I'd probably have to take 80 shots to get through it. If you only, oh, 80 shots of liquor, yeah. just You came with me one time, we had fun. I know, I was completely sober too. There was only eight shots of liquor done that day.
00:03:05
Speaker
So I think the biggest problem with terms of service is from what I've seen is the first there's a lot of ambiguity in the terms of service and you have terms of service on your website. I have terms of service on my website and you know, for for all intents and purposes, they're there to help us legally if something happens that, you know, people that are using our services understand that we have terms or using that service. And that's basically what terms of service are to begin with. But these terms of service had a little bit of ambiguity in them. And in the ambiguity came the rumors. So because something was written in the way of
00:03:45
Speaker
We have the ability to look through cloud-based stored images that was perceived as Adobe's going to steal my stuff. And there's a difference between perception and reality, and everyone's perception is different. And reality, in my personal opinion, doesn't exist because it just exists between your perception and my perception. So that's essentially what we have going on on the internet now is this perception from this person, this perception from this person, this perception, this perception, this perception. And then even, you know, Adobe came back and said, okay, well, this is what we really mean about this. What we really mean about this. And there's a whole blog post that Adobe did that really clarified that you own your stuff. We are not stealing your stuff. And still people have mistrusted Adobe in this process because
00:04:30
Speaker
in the ambiguity and in all the perception, it just went like wildfire. That's how I see it is that they had some ambiguous terms of service that left room for legal stuff, just like our terms have ambiguity in them for legal stuff. Can I read something? I want over i want to read something that I think will be ah think this will be interesting because this is from a company that I promise most of you most people listening No. Okay. um It's not, and it's not Adobe, but this is from a company that I promise most people listening know. I'm going to try to leave it out until the the end of it.
00:05:10
Speaker
So, uh, blank does not by, by displaying or publishing, posting any content on or through the site. You hear by grant blank, a non-exclusive fully paid royalty free worldwide limited license to use modified, delete from ad to publicly performed display reproduce content without limitation, distributing part or all of the site in any media formats or channels. So, really quick, I'm gonna try. You hereby grant blank, non-exclusive, fully paid, royalty-free, worldwide, limited license, modified, delete, publicly, display, reproduce, and any media formats throughout any media channels. Not Adobe. Can I guess? You ever been to OnOne's website? No. That's the terms of service you agree to if you do use it and use their community. Oh boy.
Purpose of Accessing Cloud Content
00:06:04
Speaker
So here everyone's jumping ship from Adobe or... or And their percent by the way ship from adobe by the way, if they update their terms of service, and this is everybody, this isn't on one, by the way, there's a clause in there that says these terms of service can be updated at any time and your continuation of using this site assumes your your ah agreement to them. yeah so So that's one. Here's another one.
00:06:28
Speaker
um and anybody did ah shall be shall be deemed non, so any any information including feedback data such as questions, comments, suggestions, or the likes regarding the site, the content of any item information shall be deemed non-confidential and blank shall have no obligation of any kind to respect such information. In addition, blank will be free to reproduce, use, disclose, display, exhibit, transmit, perform creative derivative works, and distribute this information. I can go on and on about about all of this stuff. Do you know who that is?
00:07:01
Speaker
topa oh oh Oh yeah. And then Facebook for all content, you specifically give us the following permission. You grant us non-exclusive transferable sub-licensable royalty-free worldwide license to use any IP intellectual property content that you post or in connection with Facebook. This IP ends when you delete your blah, blah, blah. By the way, if you didn't hear it, non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any content that you post in connection with Facebook. And the funniest part about it is people are arguing about this Adobe thing on Facebook.
00:07:45
Speaker
Well, it's a good thing Facebook owns all those conversations now.
00:07:51
Speaker
So ah you know i I think good things will come from this. So so adobe did Adobe came out and you you put you you pointed me to an article, but Adobe basically came out and explained that a lot of a lot of the, yeah and you you had the great analogy, so I'll introduce this topic, Blake, but you had a really good analogy. Adobe came out and said, So number one, they're not looking on your computer locally for anything. This is all only for things that are stored on their cloud servers. And they came out and explained why, but you had a great analogy on it. I'll let you take it.
00:08:25
Speaker
Right, so you know I'm actually okay with them looking at things on cloud servers just like I'm okay with Google doing it and just like I'm okay with Dropbox doing it because I think we live in a world where people seem to think that everyone is trustworthy and like them. Everyone seems to think that they're like them until they realize that people are not like them, right? So we live in this world and think to ourselves, well, I need to protect my content because it's being shared on this space. Well, the the the reality is is that I do not believe Adobe is is there to take the content that you put in the cloud and use it. I don't think that that's what what the whole point is. And if you look at this from a security standpoint, I strongly feel it's more for nefarious purposes because everyone's not like you, everyone's not like I, everyone's not like the people that are reading this, okay? Everyone is different. And there are people that are using any type of cloud-based storage for nefarious purposes. That could be for
00:09:21
Speaker
images that you know are considered lewd, crude, underage people. That could be um even for- Adobe so actually specifically states child child pornography. Exactly. And then you also have the possibility of terrorist ah terroristic documents being shared back and forth between individuals. This stuff happens, right? And people seem to think that these terms of service are put in place because Adobe wants to steal their images. I don't know exactly how Adobe uses that, but I would imagine It's more for the extent of, let's say there's an investigation on an individual and they need to subpoena the records of somebody who owns an Adobe cloud-based account. So now they can look through those documents if they reach out to Adobe and get that stuff. That's all hypothetical. But the analogy is, let's say I owned a warehouse, a giant warehouse, and I have it open to public that you can store whatever you want in this giant warehouse.
00:10:17
Speaker
So i I generally don't know who's storing what where and what they're, well, I know who's storing it and where they're storing it, but I'm not really too concerned about what's being stored there because I have terms of service that says, hey, if at any time I can take a look at what you're storing here, why? Because we need to know what you're storing there. You you can't have an open-ended warehouse and just let people store stuff in it without having some security measures in place because of the things that could be stored in that warehouse.
Internet Privacy and User Rights
00:10:47
Speaker
you know, illegal weapon. If you sign in, a if you've signed an apartment lease, you've signed someone has the ability to come into your apartment. Exactly. just So I think the big thing that comes with this is that people are are really sick of and privacy.
00:11:06
Speaker
and and not having it online. But the unfortunate thing is, as you've covered here with On One, with Topaz, with Adobe, with Facebook, is that if you're gonna try to fight Adobe on this, you have to fight Dropbox, you have to fight Google, you have to fight um Microsoft, you have to fight so many different companies on this idea of privacy that you can't just single out Adobe. and scream from a mountaintop that you're going to abandon them. You have to abandon the internet. Sorry to say it, but if you don't want to be seen, if you don't want your stuff to be seen, or have the possibility of being stolen, you have to abandon the internet completely.
00:11:47
Speaker
Hey everybody, I'm actually going to break into this. This is not a commercial in any way. This is actually um something we didn't cover when we talked about it and realized afterwards. And I don't want you to walk away without hearing, I think what is a very important statement from Adobe on some of these changes and and how um and and and what they're going to change as as a result ah of all this. So this was written and on an Adobe blog and talks a little bit about how um you know there the intent wasn't there, but of course that doesn't necessarily excuse anything, but they they did clarify some areas within their terms of use. So I thought that would be be good for everybody to hear it so that you don't have to go searching around the internet, but basically
00:12:26
Speaker
The first bullet point is you own your own content. Your content is yours. It will never be used to train any generative AI tool. We make that clear. ah We will make that clear in the license grant section. And I think that's an important thing. We don't train generative AI on customer content. It does go on to say that their generative AI can be trained on things with permission such as Adobe stock and public domain content where copyright has expired. ah You have the choice not to participate in the product improvement program. So there are options inside of Adobe to do that. And then the licenses we require to operate
00:13:02
Speaker
and improve our products on your behalf should be narrowly tailored to their needs. And they talked about how they will now include plain english plain English examples of what they mean and why they are required, which I think is helpful for everybody. um And then finally, it says Adobe does not scan content stored locally on your computer. Talked a little bit about why they do scan content that gets stored on their servers, but what they're clarifying here is they are not scanning content or anything from your local computer. so As we go on here, again, I think the conversation is interesting to talk about this stuff, but I wanted to make sure you heard some of the clarifications on what this means directly from Adobe.
Trust in Adobe vs Other Companies
00:13:41
Speaker
And so the way the way that I look through this, because you you you and I both got dozens of messages, especially because I i very publicly use the, so Lightroom Classic doesn't really have much to do with the cloud, but I very publicly use Lightroom, not Classic anymore. um Although I teach Lightroom Classic, but so I do upload some of my photos to the cloud. So I had a bunch of people saying, are you going to abandon the Lightroom desktop version and go back to Lightroom Classic for this? And so I look at through the lens of practicality, number one, I don't think anything of these terms of service is really anything new than what we've already agreed to with just some minor, minor wordage tweaks. It got blown way out of proportion, partly because of tabloids. And I'm just gonna call them that. um if If you're a petapixel reader right now, I actually lose a little bit of respect for you because you're you're reading the worst internet tabloid and you're allowing yourself
00:14:39
Speaker
to to be to be changed by this. They're out there to enrage people. They're out there to get people. So you have these websites that blow it out of proportion. Reddit is the same thing. It it made its way on on the reddit um on Reddit as well. So i think I think take that out of the picture. i I trust Adobe more than I do some of these other platforms because Adobe has a product. and that product we need to keep using for Adobe to stay in business.
00:15:13
Speaker
Facebook, Meta, Google, I mean, not i not all Google, but Facebook, Meta, we're the product, information, our information is the product. I trust them less. I trust Zuckerberg as far as I can throw that to, but I trust Adobe because they're tied to our success is really what I'm trying to get at there. Right, and you know I think when when Adobe came out with this, and here's the thing, like people keep saying that Adobe backpedaled on their ambiguity. And they did, rightfully so they did. But the people that are throwing darts at them are not backpedaling on their stance, even after Adobe made very clear clarifications as to what's going on, because people don't want to admit when they are wrong.
00:16:01
Speaker
An internet apology said no one ever. Exactly. And here's he just just some things from Adobe. Areas of clarification within our terms of use. You own your content. Your content is yours and will never be used to train any generative AI tool. We will make it clear in the license grant section that any license granted to Adobe to operated services will not supersede your own your ownership rights. We don't train generative AI on customer content. We are adding this to the statement to our terms of use to it reassure people that it is a legal obligation on Adobe. Adobe Firefly is only trained on a data set of licensed content with permission, such as Adobe Stock and public domain content where copyright has expired.
00:16:43
Speaker
And then here, you have the choice to participate in our product improvement program. And this is something I i kind of just, just did with on my Facebook page today. ah Well, not when you're reading this, but recently I posted this on my Facebook page that, you know, I read the stuff that happened with all of this. I read the articles, I read the blog posts, I read Adobe's terms, and then I went into my settings. in my Adobe account on Adobe dot.com, I went into privacy and settings and you can opt out of any of this stuff, right? So, you know, you can complain about it. You can be angry about it or you can do something about it. And by doing something about it, it doesn't mean you have to run to the internet and complain about it, right? You can go into your own settings and you can opt out of this stuff so that in the event that you are uncomfortable with it and you don't trust Adobe, you have the ability to turn that stuff off.
00:17:35
Speaker
So it's a very simple thing. and i think a lot of I think it got blown out of proportion because of the tablets. And even here, Adobe backpedaled. Yes, they did. I wouldn't say they backpedaled. I would say that they opened up, they closed down the ambiguity. It was open-ended, they closed it, they stood they clarified, they said this, and they were kind enough to do that. They didn't have to do that, but they did it, right? I think it's okay if people can backpedal on their stance. At first, I was enraged by this too, to be honest. I'm like, what? No way. Adobe, we can't be doing this. And then I read, I was like, oh wait, this is just getting blown out of proportion. Oh wait, let me dig a little deeper, right? So I get it, but it's okay. I started out enraged, but then I came back to my senses after I realized what was really going on. It's okay to backpedal on your own stance.
Simplifying Terms of Service
00:18:21
Speaker
It's okay to say, oh wait, maybe I was wrong when I first started arguing about this Adobe stuff.
00:18:26
Speaker
that's just That's the way I see it. And you forgiveness is forgiveness is okay. And forgiveness isn't for Adobe. Forgiveness is for you. Well, and i think I think a good way to, I think we can probably wrap this up by saying, so I think if something good comes out of this, we we will start getting more plain English terms of service or terms of service that's translated better. What happened here was a bunch of lawyers wrote what they're supposed to write. And and that's fine. The lawyers did their job. The lawyers lawyers are not marketers, although I would argue that they should have enough sense to to know this. But the marketers and the other people should have said, OK, we're going to roll this out.
00:19:12
Speaker
And let's make sure we issue a statement like they are now, like people like the Scott Belsky and another blog post on there came out and said, this is the plain English version of this. I applaud on one because I read part of on one's service on there, but but i apploud I applaud on on one because in the section where it says proprietary rights to content, they start by saying on one does not clean any ownership rights of content that you post. And that's the first sentence. And you know the interesting part because i is i'm um I'm just naturally distrustful of a lot of things like that. So, you know, there's a website it's called like wayback dot.com where you can go look at different versions like all the all the past changes to a website.
00:20:00
Speaker
So I went back and I looked at this terms page. And I mean, that statement goes back years. So good on on one. they They let you know right up front, they they didn't just jump on this bandwagon last week when everybody was in up in arms over it. They jumped on this years ago and said, it and I think Adobe needs to and will do that. And I think You have to look at it, it goes back to what I said, the practical and the the common senses. It would be a very bad look for the company that is creating the software for the artists, for the creators, for the people, for the photographers to then go and steal and sell their work. And I would ask you, have you ever heard of an instance where they did this?
00:20:45
Speaker
because you're not gonna be able to name one. And if they ever did find a photo through all this and they said, wow, this would make a great example of what we're trying to do. We wanna use this in an ad campaign. You're gonna get a letter from Adobe Legal asking for a release. I'm pretty darn sure you're gonna get paid for it. You're gonna get paid a heck of a lot more money than you thought that photo was worth. I would love it if Adobe reached out to me for anything. I'm scared. I would love it if Adobe took one of my photos and used them somewhere. It'd be the best thing that could happen to me. I know, right? I know they're going to credit you. I know. You know, from a fine artist perspective, I do value art to a very strong degree. But, you know, it is one of those things where, too, it is we're just.
00:21:28
Speaker
making fun with it now but um yeah i'm right there with you that i think only good things are gonna come of this and i think the thing to gather from this is if you're the type of person who jumps on the bandwagon of somebody else's perception without digging into the reality of the situation you need to put yourself a little bit on on tilt here and take an inward look at at What do you, what are you actually following? Are you following the advice of the the things that you're seeing online or are you following your own deductive reasoning? And I think deductive reasoning is always going to win over online headlines and online perception. So that's just a little bit of put it on the people to read through things and not just take somebody else's perception.
00:22:14
Speaker
And again, I think overall this will make improvements for everybody because I think all companies will start to see this and start to create more plain English ah terms of service and changes to those terms over time. Yeah, I might even write my crayon. All right. i could do I'd say to everybody out there, so yeah in a nutshell, it not nothing greatly has changed. adobe Adobe did not release a terms of service to take more from you specifically. Adobe did what they had to do for for certain legal reasons.
00:22:52
Speaker
um And I think whatever whatever photos you trusted with your software before, you can continue trusting with your software now. So I wouldn't let that ah influence too much of any of your actions going forward.
Closing and Contact Information
00:23:07
Speaker
Blake, where can we find out more about you? F64academy.com. Gonna change your name to X now, are you? Yeah, I am. or No, F. Just F.
00:23:23
Speaker
You know the worst part about that Twitter change? It's everything says X, formerly Twitter. yeah so All they did is create more words for everybody. Yeah, the ah the artist formerly known as Prince. yeah So f64academy.com is where I do pretty much everything that you can see for free there and you can join my mailing list there to see what I'm up to. Sounds good. And you can find me over at mattk dot.com. Same thing. you Got all my social media stuff, lots of free tutorials and got a little mailing list if you want to keep up to date with everything. So ah thanks everybody for giving us some time to talk about this and we'll see again on the next episode.