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Beware of Photography Advice
4.5k Plays1 year ago
Matt Kloskowski and Blake Rudis tackle the topic of the overload of advice that photographers get. Today, we have more photography and photo editing advice available than ever before. But that comes with its own problems. It can be time consuming to watch/read all of this advice. And, as most of us know, not all advice (even though it's well intended) is good advice. Is this advice making you better or worse? We discuss some common mistakes and how best to filter out info.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Well, hey everyone, welcome to the first Frame of Mind photography podcast, where we talk about topics to help change, enhance your frame of mind when it comes to photography and photo editing. Today, I am joined by my buddy Blake Rudess from F64 Academy, and probably the person that all of you guys ask the most for me to partner with. What's going on, Blake?
00:00:24
Speaker
Not much, just excited to be here and take our phone conversations and turn them into a reality for everybody else. That's really what this is and what it came from.
Podcast Focus and Topic Introduction
00:00:38
Speaker
So here's the deal. This is the first Frame of Mine podcast. I mean, by the time we get going with this, it might not even be called that anymore. Who knows? But it's a good working title. And we're going to see how it goes from here. And I think the one thing that's important to both of us is that we get right to it.
00:00:56
Speaker
Well, I think it's kind of interesting to hear how this developed. What I thought is, is we'll dive right into our topic. And then, I don't know, maybe half three quarters of the way through, we'll take a couple little minute break. And, you know, we'll just talk about, you know, what the podcast came from, what our plans are for it. And, but I think it's important to get to the topic. So let's kick it off.
00:01:16
Speaker
Beware of photography advice. I could even insert music, ominous music there. So what does that really mean? That's exactly what I was thinking too. I think the main first point we want to get across with that is this is not coming from a bad place. I think most of people giving advice
00:01:40
Speaker
And whether it's a YouTube channel or an acquaintance in a photography club or a friend, I think most people genuinely want to help you and mean well. But just because that's the case, that doesn't mean it's useful.
Navigating Photography Advice
00:01:53
Speaker
And you'll hear lots of golf analogies from me because I'm in golf where a lot of, I think, people that listen to us are in photography where, you know, kind of just a passionate amateur at it.
00:02:06
Speaker
I really like it and I take it seriously, but I'm at the driving range one day and I'm struggling a little bit. And some guy walks up to me who I'd seen at my club before and he proceeds to start giving me swing advice.
00:02:20
Speaker
And I'm trying to be polite. And so I'm trying a couple of things that he says. So in addition to the things that are already in my head, now I've got the 10 things that he's telling me in his head and nothing helped. By the way, I don't want to be mean. He was not a good ball striker. So that's what made it even worse is because I'm looking at this guy in a driving range, not thinking I would ever want advice from him. But for some reason he took it upon himself to give it to me anyway.
00:02:46
Speaker
Um, but yo, I went, I went to my real golf coach and, and I told him what this guy told me and he's like, okay, first things first, let's forget 100% about what he told you because he's dead wrong. And so while advice can be well-meaning, it doesn't mean it's the right advice. And I think that's what we kind of want to get into. Yeah. You know, I think when it comes to that, I think context is really the key. You know what I mean? Like.
00:03:14
Speaker
Sometimes the advice that you're getting, you're not necessarily seeking out. For instance, I'll make a YouTube video on a Friday or whenever I put it out and, and.
00:03:25
Speaker
it might not be what you're looking for, but you hear it and you use it and it might be helpful, but if it's not in context, anything that you're currently working on or doing, it might not really be that important either. You know what I mean? So in that, I think context really is a key. This guy is trying to give you swing tips, but what if it's this part of your swing that you have a problem with and not this part of your swing, and he's just trying to restructure the way you swing completely.
Expertise and Context in Advice
00:03:53
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:03:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, he meant well. But just because he meant well doesn't mean I think I think that's a great first point. Just because somebody means well doesn't mean it's good. Not all well meaning advice is good advice. I can even go back to what you were saying there about this guy not necessarily being a very good swing. Anyway, I actually go back to how I started photography education. I mean,
00:04:22
Speaker
My first blog was Everyday HDR, right? I mean, I was drinking the HDR Kool-Aid, and I still think it's...
00:04:30
Speaker
I still think it's really funny that people have continued to follow me after that. If you saw my images back then, I look at them from now and I'm like, oh God, this is so embarrassing. I can't even look at some of those images from my portfolio from 2012, 2013, 2014. I almost want to wipe them from my mind, you know what I mean? Because the advice that I was giving then was really the only advice that I knew
00:04:56
Speaker
So I was giving advice to the level where I was at. And that's another point that I think is really interesting too is what level is the person at that's giving the advice and what does their work back up that level?
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I got to I've got some I've got some HDR photos that are that I can't forget about because they're radioactively seared into my mind. That's old photos we want to forget about is probably another podcast.
00:05:27
Speaker
So what we're going to do is we have an outline here. We're not just winging it. And we're just going to start going down the outline here as far as the topics that we want to talk about, as far as what to beware of. So I'll let you take the first one there, Blake. Hopefully you have to show notes in front of you. I do. Mine are paper, as I said. If you're watching this, then you saw my paper. But if you're just listening, I'm paper. He's digital. That's why we work so well together. So all AI now.
00:05:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I should just have a robot move my lips for me. Um, so many times that, that advice might be dated too. Um, and, and think about terms like that. So here you are, you need advice for something and what do you do? You go to the Google machine, you go to YouTube and you type in what it is that you're looking for. And this is a perfect example because I'm, I'm just recreating my gradients course now.
00:06:22
Speaker
So if we type in stuff about gradients and then one of my videos pops up on YouTube from 2017 on gradients. Well, gradients have changed completely. So while the advice still might be helpful on how to use it, the execution of that advice might not be pertinent to what it is that you're working on at the time because of the way things have updated. Now the advice might be helpful and you might be able to find some nuggets there, but you might not be able to use it 100% to your advantage because of the fact that there are dated principles behind it.
00:06:52
Speaker
Yeah, and we're, I think we're in this, we're in this, this area, you know, we'll call it activity of photography. And a lot of things do change, you know, exposure doesn't really change over time. But when I think back to, when I think back to either advice that I got or gave,
00:07:12
Speaker
a decade ago, some of it's not very valuable right now for turn off VR when you're on a tripod.
Impact of Technological Advances on Advice
00:07:21
Speaker
In 2008, that was very necessary advice because if you were on a tripod and you had VR on and I experienced this and I was very passionate when I would tell people about that because I had a whole photo shoot that I flew across the country for to a place I would always wanted to go and I had it ruined.
00:07:41
Speaker
by having VR on, didn't know that it was actually making my photos soft.
00:07:46
Speaker
But fast forward to 2023, most of your modern lenses can actually detect when to engage VR and not to engage VR. I always tell people, you know, the fallback is you have to look at, especially a lens. You've got to look, it sounds silly, like look at the manual. That's the first thing I throw away is a manual that comes with the lens. And I don't know anybody that doesn't.
00:08:11
Speaker
I was like, he's like, I read it front to back, but I never, I never read it. I mean, lenses were never something I really thought you needed a lot of description for, right? You attach them to the camera and you change the aperture.
00:08:26
Speaker
That's it. But your manual that came with your lens should tell you whether or not you need to do that and you could poke around. But I know, like I shoot Sony, Sony lenses will detect when VR needs to be engaged and when it doesn't, so you don't have to turn it off. Bracketing, you and I both
00:08:48
Speaker
I used to tell people to bracket all the time. Now with resolution and dynamic range in cameras like they are today,
00:08:59
Speaker
I don't bracket unless I need to. It's not an automatic. Now it's a, let me look at it. Let me look at the photo. Let me take the photo. Let me look at what's clipping. If anything, let me decide if I need to bother myself with taking three, five or seven photos. So, so 10 years ago, I would have said bracket everything today. I don't. So I think that just goes to show you that, that things do change over time. Especially bracketing. That's one of those things that, you know, now, nowadays, I mean,
00:09:26
Speaker
Best advice is just expose for the highlights and go. And again, that advice might get dated in 10 years from now if you're listening to this 10 years from now. Yeah, exactly. We won't even need to take a picture. We'll just blink our eyes in 10 years and we'll be done. All right, so let's see here. I'll move on to the next one here.
00:09:51
Speaker
So this is a good one. Sometimes it's not the advice that you need. And this can go back to what I talked about me being on the driving range, getting advice from somebody who didn't really know what I needed. He might've given me advice that worked for him. But I think that's the first one is you might be getting advice that worked for somebody else, but it's not really what you need. I've noticed this. I think you have too, Blake.
00:10:22
Speaker
and talking with other people, other instructors, other people in the industry, sometimes people can be really competitive.
Motives Behind Giving Advice
00:10:32
Speaker
And I don't know that you're always getting the right advice. And so I'll give an example. I used to do your judges in camera clubs.
00:10:45
Speaker
I've been to a lot of camera club meetings. I've been online at a lot of camera club meetings. I've seen a lot of judging over the years at photo shows and things. And not all of the judges are right. And I don't know, I'm not going to say all of them. In fact, let's just go with a small minority of judges might not have the other person's best interest in their mind when they're judging a photo.
00:11:09
Speaker
But I know like years ago, so it's going on almost 10 years that I've been gone from Kelby. But I was at Kelby Media for a decade and it became a very competitive place just in the people that I worked with there. And I started realizing over time, these were the last people I would ever want to ask to bring my photos in after a trip and show them off.
00:11:39
Speaker
because I started getting really weird vibes and advice. Like, one person told me, he's like, yeah, I don't know, there's a little tension in that one for me. And I'm like, tension? It's a picture from Moab of, what's the arch, delicate arch? Or no, I think, what's the one that everybody goes to at the sunrise? A big one at the top? Yeah, the big one, I don't know. Anyway. The one you have to hike to is like a mile and a half.
00:12:08
Speaker
Yeah, one of the arches. But it's like, guys, this is a gimme photo. Like, there is no tension that can be created from taking a picture of delicate arch. It's put the stinking arch into your frame and take the picture. Hope that you got a pretty sky behind it, right? But I just started realizing over time that
00:12:27
Speaker
that I wasn't, I didn't feel I was getting advice that was helping me and a critique that was helping me. I felt like it was coming from a competitive place and deep down, I think I knew it was so. Yeah, I can attest to that for sure. No, for like, because being in the military was very much like that too. Like, you know, it was almost a given that when you became a Master Sergeant in the Air Force, that you would be a mentor of some sort. But that assumes that everyone who becomes a Master Sergeant is going to be a mentor.
00:12:56
Speaker
But not everyone who gets to that level is supposed to be a mentor because mentorship is not a given. Mentorship is a, we have synergy together, so we work well together. I can be your mentor, you can be mine, et cetera, et cetera. But mentorship is not always a given. So then when you sneak advice from some of these people, especially leadership advice, when it came to the next promotion,
00:13:20
Speaker
Some of these people who were maybe jealous of your ability to get to that next stage might give you conflicting advice or advice that, you know, almost kind of setting you up for failure type advice. You know what I mean? Like, because if they give you the good advice and you roll with it, then you get that promotion and they don't. And there was always, there was always this, well, should I really believe what that person told me? And again, it comes into taking into context who you're getting the advice from.
00:13:49
Speaker
If they were my true mentors, then I knew that I could take that advice and I could run with it. But if it was just another peer of mine saying that stuff, I knew that I kind of had to be careful. And I think that's a huge thing for the idea of gaining advice. Gaining advice from a mentor, someone who genuinely wants the best for you and has your best interest in mind, I think for the most part will always be advice that can be used. If you have a very strong relationship with this person who is a phenomenal mentor,
00:14:18
Speaker
But just general advice sometimes doesn't apply because it's all in context to where you are.
Personalized Learning and Coaching
00:14:26
Speaker
Yeah. I think back when I was getting my first camera, and I remember having a discussion with somebody that was a photographer at the time. So, I mean, this is 30 years ago. But one of the things he said to me was, he said, I was like, yeah, I'm pretty much settled. I'm going to get this camera. I was like, I don't know what lens to get with. He's like, oh, everybody's first lens should be a 51.8.
00:14:54
Speaker
And mind you, he never asked what I had interest in taking pictures of. Never asked my ability. Nothing around that just said everybody should have a 51.8. And I think I went out and bought a 51.8 that sat on the shelf forever and ever until I eventually saw it. There you go. But there's not much of a reason
00:15:19
Speaker
If you're not going to be shooting portraits and weddings and events for a 51.8, it doesn't have much of a value beyond that, unless you just want to put it on and say, I want to challenge myself to go out and shoot the world with a 51.8.
00:15:35
Speaker
It doesn't have a whole lot of value for which at the time I was going to be very interested in landscape photography. Had he asked me that, I would have said that. But instead, I went to my first landscape shoot with a 51.8 and very quickly realized that this was not the lens that I needed for it.
00:15:53
Speaker
You know, it's not even that all advice is not necessarily well intended. It can be well intended. It can be from a good person. It can be from somebody that should be giving advice, but it might just not be the advice you need.
00:16:13
Speaker
And that's a tricky place to be, is for somebody to figure out the advice that you need to get you to that spot. And I always tell people, find somebody who you implicitly trust about everything, who wants to see you get better. I know Blake and I, we agree on this, but I don't necessarily know that every photographer in the industry agrees that the best thing for me is any student that I teach to get better than me.
00:16:42
Speaker
because I'm not a pro photographer. I've got no skin in the pro photography game. I want you to get as good as you possibly can and beat every pro photographer out there. And you know what? Blake and I are educators. And if you got better from something we told you, that means our ego gets a boost because we did our job really well. That just happened to me recently. I had a person who's been on F64 Elite for, gosh,
00:17:09
Speaker
five, maybe six years. And they sent me an email and said, I just felt the need to tell you why I canceled my membership. If I feel like I'm past getting education online anymore.
00:17:23
Speaker
I'm past the point of, um, of watching a course and getting much out of it. And, you know, the email went on, but I emailed them back and I said, look, I'm actually really glad you're here at this point because that shows that you, you have taken the stuff that you need. You've taken it to the level that you need and structured content no longer works for you.
00:17:45
Speaker
So instead of that person leaving, we started doing one-on-one sessions together. And now it's become a coaching session of, okay, you need more specific advice on your images directly. And you're not going to get that from a course on gradients. You're not going to get that from a course on this. That's all experimental stuff. You've got a style. It's dialed in. You know who you are. I respect that. And I'm glad you're in the position that you're in.
00:18:11
Speaker
The education you need is a tier above, you know, and I was ecstatic to hear that. I want to hear that someone no longer has to be on a subscription website to take their photography to the next level. It's a great, I mean, it's a perfect story, perfect example of it. And I mean, hats off to that person for having the self-awareness to realize it, because that's not easy either.
00:18:37
Speaker
No, no. And then their work is great. I mean, they've developed a phenomenal style. They carry that style through each image. And what they need is just, they need a second set of eyes to say, I like what you've done here, but what's going on here? Because no course is going to teach you that this problem that you're having is very specific to the image that you're working on. Let's target that.
The Art of Teaching Photography
00:18:57
Speaker
So we've been targeting in our one-on-one sessions different areas of techniques that they can work on to make their work better. And dude, after two of them, exponential difference between images that I've seen. That's cool. All right, man, I think you got the next, you got our next little topic here.
00:19:19
Speaker
Which one are we going at? Cause you just targeted a couple of times. So actually taking photos is much different than being a coach. It sure is. I mean, I think we kind of talked about that, but I think there's, I think it's worth it. I think it's a point worth mentioning. Absolutely. We can elaborate on that one. So
00:19:41
Speaker
The point we have is actually taking photos is much different than being a coach. And we've kind of talked about this more around it, but talking directly at it. You can be really good at something, but not be able to analyze why it's good. And that's what I'm running into a lot in my critique sessions is that.
00:20:03
Speaker
There are some people who are very good at taking pictures. And when you ask them a question, how did you do that? I just saw that and I liked it. So I did that. And I'm like, really? No, you did a lot more to that than just what you just kind of like laissez-faire said you did. I know that that required a lot of work. Can you explain it a little bit? Well, not really. I mean, I just kind of played around until I got to that point. So they're good at the photo taking part. They're good at creating the image part.
00:20:31
Speaker
But if you really asked them to break it down and analyze it and put it into a series of steps, that's where it falls apart because they don't have a series of steps, which we, we call a workflow. So they might be, they might have an internal workflow that they just work through, but they can't describe it like an educator or a coach or a mentor would, um, you know, I would liken that to, let's say, I mean, I don't know any of the quarterbacks in the NFL, but you know, my favorite, obviously my homes.
00:20:59
Speaker
Um, if you asked him how he throws a sidearm ball like that, you know, you watch some of the stuff he does like, Hey dude, I, I just had to get the ball there. That's all I had to do. Like I knew I needed to get that ball there. So I did it. But if you asked him to, when would you use that throw? He was like, when I need to use it, you know what I mean? So a coach might be able to say, well, you might want to use that when you're in this position and you've got this, this. So, you know, a coach can analyze the situation. A mentor can analyze the situation, but someone who's doing oftentimes does.
00:21:46
Speaker
I actually feel like after watching that series, number one, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Patrick Mahoney, but number two, seeing his personality on there, I think you nailed, that was a perfect example. And I don't even think you've watched the series yet, but seeing his personality on there, seeing his personality on there, I'm almost positive that would be his answer. Like, yeah, so when do you use that little sidearm? I don't know, when I have to.
00:21:48
Speaker
in the spur of
00:22:12
Speaker
But a coach is going to realize, okay, when you're running in this direction, when there's a receiver over here, we can start designing a play where you're going to use that because the coach can dissect when, why, where it works to my home. He's just like, that was the only way I could move my arm at the time. It seemed good. So I did it, you know.
00:22:34
Speaker
But yeah, I think there's so many examples. I'll bring it back to photography with a student that I met years ago. I'm actually going to reuse her real name, which is Susan. So Susan has a portfolio of photos that I would claim as mine any day of the week. And I've been out shooting with Susan a number of times. And the funny thing is,
00:23:02
Speaker
I don't think she can explain what she does. But like I said, she does more wildlife stuff. I would take any one of her photos and put them in my portfolio.
00:23:14
Speaker
She's that good, but she doesn't know how she got there. She doesn't really know what she's looking for. She just knows it when she sees it. So there's been times where I've tried to get her to explain to me. I'm like, okay, Susan, so what settings were you using here? What were you doing there? And she'll look at the photo. She's like, I don't know.
00:23:34
Speaker
Like I just I just took the photo, you know So and I think that's that's that's a great example of it and that's why if if you were I think that the takeaway from this is if you're in a setting where you have the opportunity to ask somebody Who's really good a question number one ask it right like what's the harm? but don't don't be
00:23:59
Speaker
don't be a little bit bummed if you don't get the answer or the clarity of the answer that you want. Because they may not know. They may not actually know what they're looking for. They just would see it and do it, you know? And I think that's a good takeaway from that one. Let's see here. So you ready to move on to another one there, Blake? Yes, sir. Let's do it. I guess this one's me, isn't it? All right, so here's a good one.
00:24:29
Speaker
many times free, and I think we alluded to this earlier, many times free videos and free articles and things, they don't know where you're at. And so my example is I'm gonna give different advice to my mom who is kind of into photography versus somebody who's comes to me and has been shooting for years and hopes to win, you know, wild lists, let's just talk, you know, my mom has taken an interest in wildlife.
00:24:59
Speaker
So this person, you know, another person comes to me and they're shooting for years and they want to win contests. They want to sell photos, they want to start a gallery, they want to do all those things. Number one, I would tell them, run. Number two. But no. And so if my mom wants to take a photo of a bird, I'm probably going to set up her camera, get her camera set up on some really good auto settings. Just settings where she doesn't have to think about it one bit.
00:25:28
Speaker
maybe the shutter speed's too fast, maybe the shutter speed's too slow, maybe the ISO's not, whatever it is, maybe the focus area is good for what's in front of her, but it's not gonna be good for a bird flying over really quick. And I'm gonna say, mom, don't worry about the type of the bird, don't worry about where it's facing, don't worry if it's looking away from you, but if the other person says, yo,
00:25:54
Speaker
I really want to start winning contests, I want to start doing these things. Now I'm going to say, okay, you've really got to look for these types of species because these are the types that win contests. More manual settings, you're going to have to change on the fly more, you're going to have to react to the situation more, you're going to have to look for this position and this position, you're going to want good action, but they're going to get two very, very different pieces of advice.
00:26:17
Speaker
And if I were to give the advice from any one to the other, I'd be doing either side a disservice because it's not the advice I think that they need at the time. Right. And that's perfect. I was at a workshop once and I was helping this lady with her camera and I said, you know, why are you shooting in this setting? And she said, well, you know, I was on a workshop a couple of weeks ago and the guy said my camera settings were all wrong. So he just took my camera and changed a bunch of things and gave it back to me. And I just shot like that.
00:26:47
Speaker
I'm like, so do you understand what the settings were that this, this educator supposedly did to your camera? And she's like, well, not really. And I'm like, okay, that's, you're working against yourself now because of these things. And I, I told her, I said, I'm not going to redo your camera. I'm going to explain to you. This is what this one does. This was this, and this is why this is so at any point, which one of those things sounds like it's not working for you in this situation.
00:27:13
Speaker
And she was like, well, it's shutter speed. I'm like, exactly. Okay. Now you understand why the settings were the way they were. And now you understand how to put them. So this person didn't understand the person who was giving the camera back to her clearly didn't know where she was and what her place was and her understanding, complete understanding of the exposure triangle and just basically messed her camera up. So she kept taking these pictures and I think it was in like full manual mode with
00:27:37
Speaker
certain settings for landscape and everything was washed out or blown out or something like that. She was just getting frustrated. And, you know, we know that we can easily resolve that stuff. So I didn't work any magic. I just explained it to her. But it's very important to understand where you are, assess where you are, and seek the guidance that you need based on your
00:27:58
Speaker
your own understanding of yourself. A lot of times we put it on the person that's giving us the advice and that's the responsibility and where it rests. But I think in that case, you have to put the responsibility on yourself and where your abilities rest to even get the advice that you're receiving, if that makes sense.
Relevance of Advice Over Time
00:28:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:13
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's funny because you said it in the beginning. It's got to be the right advice at the right time. And that's what's interesting about this whole education thing because, again, you said it in the beginning. You're like, you may watch a video today that doesn't resonate with you.
00:28:34
Speaker
But in a year, it could. So it doesn't mean that that was bad advice. And it goes back to what we said in the beginning. I don't think most people giving advice are malicious in nature.
00:28:45
Speaker
or even giving bad advice or malicious in nature. I think it's up to the learner to have a little bit of personal responsibility to know and seek out things that are for you at your level. Because that video that you watched that might not be what you're at now, maybe it is in a year. And I've gone through that in my golf journey where
00:29:07
Speaker
things that didn't make sense to me. I would watch it a year ago and be like, oh, that's not me. I'm having trouble with this. I go back to it now and I can actually say, oh wow, I probably was having trouble with that a year ago, but it didn't make sense to me. It wasn't what I was looking for at the time. So, go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say that's where this comes from. Like what a lot of people don't realize is like, you'll get an email or I'll get an email. And the first thing I do is I'm like, yo, Matt, you gotta hear this.
00:29:37
Speaker
And then we talk about it. And you're like, yeah, I got an email that's very similar to that. And we need a place to be able to vent about these things. And that's typically where this is coming from is a place from the heart about advice that you're receiving from two people who really care about the advice that we give and giving it the right time to the right people in the right moment.
00:30:01
Speaker
Sometimes people will email me, I really want to learn color theory. And I'm like, that's great. But what do you know about workflow and tones? Well, nothing. Okay, well, you can't learn that first. You got to learn this and this first. So yeah, I see, like, I'll say, you know, national geographic photographer does photography class on such and such, you know, and I'm like, I don't necessarily know that they're the best person to give advice to a total beginner.
00:30:25
Speaker
They've been at such an elite level for such a long time. My mom browses across a YouTube video that's telling her about what she needs to win photo contests. We're at a whole different level.
Evolution and Purpose of the Podcast
00:30:42
Speaker
We just got to get you some quick wins, got to get you some confidence, and we can start working our way up to that stuff.
00:30:51
Speaker
All right, I think yeah, so I think this would be a good this would be a good segue because you you touched on it so
00:30:58
Speaker
a little bit about the podcast. So Blake and I talk several times a week. I got another buddy of mine who you'll see on the podcast, Brian Mateusch. We talk several times a week, but we talk about a lot. We'll get on the phone and we'll just talk about random things, emails people sent us, videos that we saw, tutorials that we saw, whatever it happens to be. And like Blake said, sometimes we get frustrated because we see things that we actually think
00:31:28
Speaker
Could be could be actually hurting people or hurting their progress or whatever, but we just have these conversations and Over time. I was just like man. I was like we got to record some of these and I'm Blake's like we don't need to record any of these We get about it
00:31:52
Speaker
Yeah, if you could have only heard the discussions that led up to the name, you would laugh. Maybe one day we'll reveal one of those. Thank goodness for chatting with me. We would have to be doing this at night with a couple drinks to reveal that one. So that's a little bit about how it evolved.
00:32:12
Speaker
Um, I called, uh, I called Blake a couple of weeks ago and I said, you know, I was like, Hey, you know, I, I, again, I mean, I hate to hate to like belabor the golf point, but there's a golf podcast. I listened to all even name it. It's called the sweet spot. And, um, it's by two guys that I really like it because one of the guys is very much like.
00:32:38
Speaker
So if you ask him, so how do you hit the ball? And he'll be like, well, I don't know. I kind of like, I kind of want to just feel my weight here and I kind of just swing back. And I kind of just know that when I feel this, I'm ready to fire and swing through.
00:32:52
Speaker
And then if you ask the other guy, how do you hit the ball? He says, well, I set up with my feet parallel. I turn this one foot outward. Then I grip the club. Then I push the shaft this way a little bit. Then I lean back. And once I get about to, you know, 10 o'clock in the backswing, then I know I need to open my left hip and very, very different. And I like it because they present very two different.
00:33:17
Speaker
views to things, which I think can be really valuable because I think the way people learn is very, very different. So that's why I was like, Blake, I was like, you got to do some of these podcasts with me because I think we're alike in a lot of ways, but I also think we're different in a lot of ways. And that's where this was kind of born. Yeah, I'm definitely the artist. And you will tell me that you're not, even though I still believe that you are, because that's what I'm supposed to do.
00:33:47
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't believe any of this photography stuff is art. So it's like I'm on the anti Blake. Blake dies a little bit inside. There's a part of him that crumbles when he hears that. I don't think photography is art. I think it's a craft. That's podcast number two. We're going too far. We're going too far.
00:34:10
Speaker
Yeah, we are. We are. But it is photography is a craft to me. But anyway, that's that's a little bit about how this was born. We have no idea where it'll go or how many of them will do. And but you'll you'll see, I think between Blake and Brian Matias, you'll see different people pop in here and, you know, have some good conversations here. So you want to take the next one, Blake, the the I'll intro it with the squirrel.
00:34:36
Speaker
Yeah, the even the blind squirrel finds a nut. My brother says that one a lot. When we are playing video games together about getting lucky. Anyway, this one, you know, I think this is an interesting one. Matt made the notes on this one. So I'm kind of riffing off of them. But yeah, I mean, go take take it any way you want.
00:34:58
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, just based on one of the notes you're saying, if someone hears that they should focus stack and that's the key to better landscapes, then maybe they go to Glacier National Park and focus stack everything. And every one of their social media friends and lovers, uh, loves their photos or they win contests. They think that the answer came from focus stack. I did write lovers on there. I didn't mean, and every one of their lovers likes their photo. Exactly. And here's the thing. How many lovers do you have, Blake?
00:35:26
Speaker
I was just telling you that you have to be careful because some people will set you up for failure. And here we go. Uh, no, but I think that's a great point because, um, this goes back to a workshop. I was, I was coaching at a workshop and they, they wanted me to actually cover focus stacking and it's very odd.
00:35:48
Speaker
they wanted that from me specifically. And they said, we want you to do this. And I said, oh, okay. So I covered focus stacking, but focus stacking isn't really something that I do in my workflow at all because I find it really frustrating and really aggravating. But there was another thing that kind of happened there where in relationship to that, a lot of people were talking about other topics and trying to almost shift or align
00:36:15
Speaker
the workshop to these other types of topics, not just focus stacking, but like minimalism and simplicity and all these things. And it's like, you know, those things don't necessarily make great photographs. Like, you can get a great photograph if you do that. But what if it was the composition? What if it was the processing? What if it was, you know, there's there's so many elements that get involved into an image that one technique can't be necessarily responsible for.
00:36:44
Speaker
the success or failure of something. And therefore, when you hear stuff like, you know, this number one tip that all landscape photographers should be doing now, like, you know, that you have to write titles in a certain way to get them to click. But there will be people that actually believe that that title
00:37:04
Speaker
makes an image now or breaks an image now because of a title that they read on a YouTube video before they started. And then when you watch the YouTube video, you don't hear the person saying, this is the number one thing you should be doing right now. They're just giving you the technique. So you think to yourself, well, okay, I got this technique and this person told me this is number one, but they didn't really, they just put it in the title because they wanted you to click. Now we do some clickery. We have to in order to get people to click on our YouTube.
00:37:34
Speaker
I try not to make bold claims like that, but we know very well that there are peers that do. But that can sway someone's mentality into thinking that good things come from this one thing, when in reality, it's a collection of things. It's the tones, it's the colors, it's the composition, it's the effects, it's the vision that you had, even though you don't believe in that, but it's all the things that you put into it before it gets to the finished product, you know what I mean?
Social Media's Role in Photography Advice
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think I don't even think we really really need to to drill that one home anymore, other than just to say that, you know, you've got to know
00:38:12
Speaker
You've got to know what made it, what did it. And if you just, going back to our topic, beware of photography advice. Again, it's not malicious, you know, and Blake and I have done it, you know, the number one tip you need for this, the three must know tips for this. It's not malicious that that's just business. And unfortunately, you know, hate the game, don't hate the player. We have to do that. Otherwise, if we just put a title, you know,
00:38:41
Speaker
how to replace a sky in Photoshop, that's not gonna get the clicks that the title that says, you know, the must know technique for sky replacements in Photoshop. It's just simply not and that's the world. And those two titles for people who are listening to this, that's the difference between 1000 views and 100,000 views.
00:39:02
Speaker
And it's just astronomical to even think of that, whatever. Yeah, it's 100%. Again, that's the world we live in. So just kind of remember that. You might have heard a tip and you might have used it, and it doesn't always mean that that's what actually did it. And I think learning a little bit more about whatever that topic is that you're looking for,
00:39:28
Speaker
to evaluate after. I think that's just overall important, evaluate. When you're done, evaluate what worked, what didn't work. So in this case, Glacier National Park, that's really what worked. You went to one of the most prettiest national parks in the country. You could have given your camera, you could have attached it to your dog and had him stand still and your dog would take amazing photos at Glacier National Park. My dog is talented. He sits here and listens to everything all day.
00:39:59
Speaker
Uh, let's see here. Great photographers don't always make great advice givers. Um, and I think, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, my analogy to that one was, you know, uh, all of us, most of us can walk and we can do it, demonstrate it perfectly, but how many of us could actually tell somebody who's never walked exactly what to do and exactly what muscles to move and exactly what order to do that. And, you know, there's a.
00:40:25
Speaker
There's a kinematic sequence to that walking. And I don't think most of us could ever explain it, but we know how to do it. I think this other one here is pretty cursory, too. Many great coaches were not the best players. I know Blake likes football, so I'll... And we probably already talked about it with Patrick Mahomes, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's that thing. You even have it here. Those who can't do teach.
00:40:55
Speaker
I hate that phrase with a burning passion. What is that based off of success? Because if people really truly knew how successful we are, I used quotations when I said successful for those people listening. Yeah, we might not be professional photographers, but we're pretty darn successful at teaching. Really darn successful at teaching. We've dedicated our lives to learning how to do it well.
00:41:25
Speaker
Yes, but we've also dedicated our lives to teaching those that do. You know what I mean? So like, what I have here is that's the worst advice anyone can receive is those who can't do teach because what about those who can't do or teach? Right? What about those who do but never had a teacher?
00:41:52
Speaker
Yeah. That's deep. That's deep. Right. And many people will do things without a teacher. But then once they have a teacher, coach, mentor, whatever you want to call it, use those words liberally there, we'll do it better. Because that coach that teacher comes in and a lot of times it's not even because they're refining their craft, it's because they believe in that person. Right. So those who do are going to need people that believe in them to do it.
00:42:21
Speaker
That's why I hate that phrase. And when people say that, I've gotten that in bad negative emails before where someone will email me and be like, Oh, that course, those who can't do teach, what does that say about you? What do you do professionally? And we get those emails. Sometimes they're stinging and sometimes they're mean, but it's like, dude, like I'm trying to help people here. I don't really care. I mean, if I wanted to do, I probably could.
00:42:44
Speaker
I just don't necessarily want to. I prefer to teach and I love teaching. I get a lot from it. I know you do too. So that's how we chose to take our path of photography. And I commend those that do, but I also commend those that teach. And I don't think that there's, there should be any like differentiation between that. You know what I mean? It should be a, it's a synchronous thing because those teachers are helping the doers and those doers are helping the teachers and it's a symbiotic relationship. It's not a separation.
00:43:13
Speaker
I think Blake and I probably, you and I both had a moment in our career where we could have gone either way. And we've talked about this. We both deliberately knew we had the talent and skills and vision to be as good of photographers as are out there.
00:43:40
Speaker
but that wasn't what drove either of us. And I think we had these times at different points in our lives. I don't think we were talking to each other when we had them, but I know that we both had those points. And I remember, I remember I had that point and it was a turning point in my career where I was like, you know what? I know what it takes to be that next level of photographer. I don't wanna do what it takes. I know I can do it, but I don't want to do it.
00:44:08
Speaker
and I'm not willing to do what it takes, but I do know I love teaching and I'm willing to do what it takes to be the best there. And so I think it's important to find people that I think were, not everybody was a legend. Well, like when I say, I mean like the best of the best, that's not, some of my favorite teachers were never legends in their field, but they were always good.
Content Creation: Views vs. Quality
00:44:33
Speaker
And I think that's important. I do think you have to be able to do,
00:44:37
Speaker
but do you have to be the legendary in your field? I don't think so, so. No. All right, the big one. I think this is a great place to end it here, because I think we're coming down to our last 10 minutes here, but the social media slash YouTube problem. And I'll kick it off, and then I'll let Blake take the first point. But I think there's two problems
00:45:04
Speaker
with getting photography advice from social media slash YouTube. One being, are you getting a person's best content? And two, I think the social media algorithms can hurt you and maybe not give you what you need. So feel free to take either one of those, Blake. I think the, well, I think I can talk about either one of them, but I'll talk about
00:45:33
Speaker
You talk about the algorithms and I'll talk about the best content. So yeah, this happens all the time. And Matt and I talk about it because we, we, we talk about our, our videos. And uh, you know, when people ask me like, Blake, do you have a content schedule? I'm like.
00:45:52
Speaker
I don't really know what I'm putting out. And, you know, perfect example of one of my last videos that basically went viral in our world, anything over, I would say 25 to 35,000 views within a week is viral for us because of our niche of photography. And the last video subscribers we have to. Exactly. Yeah. So we don't have 4 million subscribers. Right. So I put this video up and it went bonkers. I mean, like,
00:46:19
Speaker
I got like 150,000 views and like, I got 950 subscribers from it in the last three weeks. And if you ask me, how did you come up with that to create that? I was in the shower and I was like, I need to put something on YouTube. Cause it's been three weeks since I put something on YouTube. So I sat in my office for two hours and I just played around in Photoshop and said, Ooh, this is good. And I put it out there. Now, was it good content? Yes. I feel like it was good content.
00:46:48
Speaker
But where did that content come from? It didn't come from the necessity to give that content to somebody. It came from the necessity for me to have content on my YouTube channel.
00:47:00
Speaker
There are some people that literally will create content for the sake of creating content. And I don't want to ever be that person. That's why I have been slowing down my YouTube channel. Instead of doing a video every week like I used to, number one, that's give someone a heart attack. And number two, it was just too much. I felt like I was putting out too much for the sake of putting out content, which then doesn't become the best advice out there. So when I put out content now, I want it to be the best content I can put out.
00:47:27
Speaker
And I want to make sure I put the time into it. Now, how I get to that point, whether I'm in the shower doing it or actually take a week to do it, the difference is sometimes I'll take a week to put a video together. I put on YouTube and it gets like a thousand views and then I feel deflated. But then I put that just on the whim, you know, like, here we go. And it, you know, blows the doors down. But it depends. Again, that's the context of the content, who it's coming from and what's their intent of giving it to you, right?
00:47:58
Speaker
And some people are making content for the sake of making content. And I'll admit that video was a video making content for the sake of making content, but make that content as good as I can make it. And clearly it showed in the results that it was. Um, I think you would get that negative likes thing, but I had like 99.6 likes on that percent. That's awesome. Yeah. And I think, I think the important takeaway for that one.
00:48:22
Speaker
is whether it's an idea that took you 30 seconds to come up with or 30 days to come up with. That doesn't take away from the intent that you had the intention of, I want to make a good video and I'm not going to release a good video or I'm not going to release a video until I make a good video. Or at least a video I think is good and useful. And I won't even throw other people under the bus on this one, although
00:48:52
Speaker
having two decades in this industry and going to God knows how many photo shows and conversations with other instructors. I know for a fact, 80% of the people you listen to do this. I will throw myself under the bus when back in the day when I worked at Kelby and I would have to write a magazine article, because I was in-house, I kind of had to write an article for every magazine that they have.
00:49:19
Speaker
That deadline day came and it wasn't my best foot forward. It was, oh, it's March 13th and I need to have a magazine article due. And I would sit there and I would open up Photoshop and I would click around and I would look through old videos I did and old stuff I did and be like, oh, okay, I can write this quick. It wasn't about what I could do the best. It was about whatever I could get done the quickest, easiest, least painful way.
00:49:47
Speaker
Um, I think Blake, I don't know if Blake was ever in that position, but I don't, I don't think he practices that way anymore. I think I've graduated from, from practicing that way anymore, but I can tell you it's out there. I used to read all of those. As soon as I got that magazine in the mail, I'd go right to Matt Koskowski's article.
00:50:06
Speaker
So I was getting good, bad advice. Just kidding. You weren't. And I can see it when I look for whatever I'm looking for, I can see videos from people where I'm like, man, you did this, this, and this. And I kind of know all three of those are mutually exclusive, yet you're doing videos on these things.
00:50:28
Speaker
And I know you're not really thinking about the best way to get something done. You're just thinking about content. Again, I know this for a fact that this has been done and is still done today. So just be aware of that. I'm not saying stop watching people, but just be a little bit more critical of what you're watching. If it's something you've never seen, if it's something you've never heard, if you can't back it up, look at it a little bit more closely.
00:50:57
Speaker
I'll take the other one as far as the social media YouTube problem that's out there. And that is, these social media algorithms are meant to keep you on the site. Never ever, you ever hear the, I'm sure you have Blake, but I'll throw it out to other people. Have you ever heard the, if you're getting something for free and you're wondering how the company makes money, you're the product.
00:51:27
Speaker
Your eyeballs are the product. YouTube is serving up ads. And Blake and I can tell you, because we won't get a whole lot of ad revenue, but we get ad revenue from stuff we would never think we did. So it works. People are buying stuff. They're meant to keep you there. They are meant to keep
Navigating Social Media Algorithms
00:51:44
Speaker
you there. So what happens is,
00:51:46
Speaker
is you find a video, how you search up how to get sharper photos and you'll find a video. Now the algorithm knows what you want and guess what it's gonna do? It's gonna keep delivering you videos on how to get sharper photos.
00:52:04
Speaker
So now what happens is rather than you watch that video and you go out and practice it and whether you're successful or not, you will have learned something. You will have done something, learned something and accomplished something by that that will improve your skills. But instead of doing that, you watch another video and now that video says something else. And then you watch another video and that video says something else. And before you know it, you've spent an hour in the YouTube rabbit hole.
00:52:30
Speaker
And you don't even know what you're practicing anymore because you just spent all your time watching a YouTube video. And now when you go out to try to do something to get sharper photos, now you've got 10 different things in your mind. We talked about reacting to the situation before. Have that one thing in your mind and react to it when you're out there practicing. But now that you've got 10 things, nobody can react to 10 different things at the same time when they're shooting.
00:52:55
Speaker
doing all those different things. So you've got a hundred thoughts in your head and you don't know which one is right or wrong or will help. So you got to understand that that algorithm is there to do that for you. It's going to keep delivering videos that you like. You know, I, I'm probably divulging too much. You know, it's like, God forbid I watch a Joe Rogan video.
00:53:18
Speaker
And, and I like Joe Rogan, God forbid you watch a Joe Rogan video, you start getting all kinds of weird stuff delivered to your YouTube channel of things that take you down the rabbit hole, you know? And it's just, they, they want to
Communication Tips and Podcast Wrap-Up
00:53:31
Speaker
keep you there. So I think it's important to know that the algorithm wants to keep you there. I think it's important to know really when you should stop, stop, watch something, go practice it. If it didn't work, maybe you go look up something else again, but don't, don't just sit there for an hour watching stuff.
00:53:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's important. I had a guy who's left a comment on one of my sharpening videos. It wasn't a sharpening video. It was about not using clarity and texture to try and get sharpening.
00:54:02
Speaker
Cause a lot of times people will use clarity and texture to try and make a sharper photo, but that doesn't give you sharpness. That gives you enhanced micro contrast details. So I was instead trying to teach people how to do that in Photoshop, but this person took it out of context and was like, I got a bone to pick with you. You know, this year, what you're teaching is, is not sharpening. And I'm like, no, it was never sharpening to begin with. Like this was actually about talking about how to extract details without getting contrast. That's not sharpening.
00:54:31
Speaker
So like even, even that was like, you're trying to say that what I'm trying to give you is not what I'm trying to, I can't even wrap my head around it. It was like, uh, he, he's no longer able to, uh, leave any comments on my YouTube channel because I hit user from channel. So, so I think we can wrap this up and we can, you and I can give everybody a public service announcement because you just said something really important.
00:54:59
Speaker
When you're going to send an instructor or a teacher or whoever you follow online a message, don't ever, ever start it with, I have a bone to pick with you. And don't ever, and you want to know the other one, you're going to, this one is nails on a chalkboard to me and I probably get one about once a month. Tsk, tsk.
00:55:23
Speaker
Ooh. My wife, because she gets our customer support emails before I do, and she'll try to delete them if somebody says it, because she knows I'm going to go on a RAM page if somebody starts an email with TskTsk. I've never got TskTsk. I can't say I've never gotten it. Oh, God, dude. When I do, though, I'll be sure to delete it.
00:55:45
Speaker
Watch now we're gonna get we're gonna get an influx. I'm gonna get 100 of them. The I was on. I was on a little a local beach nearby where I do a lot of bird photography.
00:56:03
Speaker
And then you got to know the backstory that there's a guy, his name's Dick. He lives up in Gainesville, dvwildlife.com. He does some great boat tours for eagles and stuff. He had given these people a tour. So I didn't know any of this. I didn't know any like that, he had talked to him. I'm on the beach, this guy walks up to me and I'm with a friend of mine and he goes, hey Matt, he goes, can I talk to you real quick? He'd seen me and he like walks up. He's like, can I talk to you real quick? I got a bone to pick with you. And I'm like, wonderful, what is it?
00:56:34
Speaker
And I said it just like that, like I had the most annoyed look on my face. I turned around to him, I said, wonderful, what can I do for you?
00:56:42
Speaker
And he goes, I just want, I just want to let you know, I don't appreciate you leaving all those water bottles and trash on Dick's boat the other day when you, and he was just joking around with me. Like I didn't really leave anything, but they were him and they kind of just made a joke. I was like, Oh God, thank God. I'm so sorry for looking like I wanted to just hit you over the head with my camera. I was about to, 600 over your head. Yes.
00:57:11
Speaker
Yeah. Well, Blake, I think we brought this in for a landing right around the time we had hoped for, which is probably the first time in history that we've done that. I know. And it was our first one. I know. All right, guys. Well, hey, thank you so much for being a part of our first little discussion here. Blake, where can everybody find you at? F64academy.com. What kinds of things do you do there?
00:57:39
Speaker
I teach, I'd say intermediate to advanced Photoshop nerdery. So if you want to learn the deep dives on small topics to make them feel bigger so you learn everything about them, that's pretty much what I do. If I give you my YouTube spiel, it would be, I take difficult things in Photoshop and make them seemingly simple so you can use them in your workflow today.
00:58:05
Speaker
That's a really good 30-second elevator pitch. You like that? I do. What's yours? And Blake does what he does very, very well. You can find me over at mattk.com where I teach you about Photoshop, Lightroom, photography, mostly landscape, wildlife type stuff, and photo editing in Photoshop and Lightroom.
00:58:28
Speaker
swing by either of our sites, and you can find out a little bit more. Blake, thanks for joining me in this one, and everybody out there, thanks for being a part, and I have no idea how any of this works, but I don't know where you'll even be able to leave feedback, but we want feedback. We want ideas on what to talk about next, so stop by our website and send us a message if wherever you're watching this doesn't allow you to
00:58:54
Speaker
leave any of that. We'll figure all that out. So thanks again, everybody, and we'll talk to you again soon.