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Is Photography Considered Art or Craft?
3.4k Plays1 year ago
Photography can mean a lot of different things to different people. This week, we give some thoughts to whether or not photography is considered an art, or a craft - or both.
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Transcript
Introduction and Platforms
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome everybody to a frame of mind photography podcast. My name is Matt Kleskowski, educator over at mattk.com. And I'm joined by Blake Rudess from f64academy.com.
Podcast Purpose: Photography as Art or Craft?
00:00:19
Speaker
What's up, buddy? What's up, man? How are you doing? I'm doing good. We got a great topic today for those of you that haven't joined us.
00:00:27
Speaker
In one of these shows before, this is a podcast where we just try to, it's called Frame of Mind, a little bit of play on the words of frame, but just try to adjust, shift, change, solidify whatever it is your frame of mind on things relating to photography and photo editing. Our topic today is one Blake and I have talked about for quite a while.
Defining Art vs. Craft in Photography
00:00:51
Speaker
In fact, it's taken us so long to do because we've been trying to figure out how to remain friends after we do it. And we think we've struck a good balance here. So the topic is, is photography art or craft? Really, it could just stop as photography art. But, you know, what do we call it?
00:01:16
Speaker
really care what you call it I just never really feel like photography is art and Blake does and we get into some very heated discussions over it so we thought why not take this discussion public because what could go wrong there nothing ever I would say though I don't know if you're going to change my frame of mind
00:01:35
Speaker
in this podcast, but we'll see. I'm open-minded, man. I'm always open-minded. So I would say I don't think we're going to change anybody's mind. I would say if you're coming into this and you think photography is an art, you will leave thinking photography is an art. And if you think it's a craft, you will leave thinking it's a craft. Yeah, I'm with you on that one, man. What's the point? I know. All right, we're done.
00:02:01
Speaker
Visit our website and thanks for listening. Yep, it's a good one. Fast as fuck. How do we even start this, Blake? How do we start this? I think we need to define art and craft and have a stable, what do you call it, control, so to speak, to base our opinions off of. That way, we aren't just riffing off of our own ideas of what art is and what craft is. I think that's the only way to do it.
00:02:30
Speaker
where we have some type of controlled measure. What's the definition of art? I just Googled it. The definition of art is... It's useless. I tried it. Art or the definition? The definition of art on Google, it's a tough one to YouTube, to Google. Okay. Well, I do have the AI, generative AI experimental thing that can possibly help us with this.
00:02:56
Speaker
Art is a creative activity that produces a product or object that others can experience. Art can be a visual object or experience that is consciously created through an expression of skill or imagination.
Is Capturing Existing Subjects Art?
00:03:10
Speaker
It can also be the expression of ideas and emotions through a physical medium such as painting, sculpture, film, dance, writing, photography, or theater.
00:03:21
Speaker
It's funny that once mentioned photography, because in all the definitions I found, they never mentioned photography. Hmm. Interesting. So the generative AI, our little experimental thing here in Google says for craft and activity that involves making something in a skillful way by using your hands and object or activity that requires special skill, a special skill, art or dexterity. The members of a skilled trade, skill in deceiving or
00:03:51
Speaker
unhanded planning, guile, slyness. I never heard of that before, but anyway. Craft can also mean an occupation, trade, or activity requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill. For example, the craft of writing plays, poetry, carpentry, and sewing. You see here, it's even like there's a lot of overlap between the context of craft and art, the actual definition of craft and activity involving skill and making things by hand.
00:04:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's weird because, I mean, if you think back to like when we were kids, what did we do? Like we went to arts and crafts class. So I guess in some ways, in some ways they're the same, an art and a craft. I can simplify my definition of art, which I've thought about a lot lately of why don't I think photography is art. And as we talked about in order to answer that question,
00:04:47
Speaker
you pretty much need a definition of art, right? What we want to call photography, a craft, a skill, or whatever. I don't care. I don't care if you call it a craft. I just use the term craft, but you got to have a definition of art. I've started to boil down art to be making something that is purely designed for aesthetic purposes
00:05:18
Speaker
out of nothing. So as I start to think about the things I consider to be art, they were all made out of nothing. Whether that's a proper definition or not, I don't know. But the things that I consider art, because it's like somebody showed me a certain painting. I'd be like, okay, yeah, that's art. I'm going to put art on the wall.
00:05:45
Speaker
Well, why is it art? I don't know. He made it out of nothing. She made it out of nothing, you know? So that's what I've started to revolve my opinion of art around, which is why, to me, photography doesn't fall in there because photography, you're taking this little box. I wonder if I have one of these little boxes. There we go. I'll do better with a visual in my hand. You're taking this little box. I'm holding up a camera.
00:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, sorry, if you're not watching the YouTube feed. You're taking this little box, and you're pointing it around what somebody has already created. Now, that somebody could be nature, that somebody could be the person that created the architecture, that somebody, whatever. But we'll use the term somebody very loosely there. But you're pointing it at something that has already been created, and you're just saying,
00:06:44
Speaker
copy it. So I always have a hard time calling any photography art because it was already there. You didn't make it. You just pointed a camera at it. And then we can go further into it, into like places like Arches and Canyonlands, Mesa Arch. I can attach a GoPro to a dog
00:07:10
Speaker
and tell it to take a photo every 10 seconds. And that dog is going to come back with award winning photography. Because you can't not. Because you're in Mesa Arch. You didn't make it. You just pointed your camera at what was in front of you. Okay.
Artistic Vision in Photography
00:07:30
Speaker
I see your point there. But I think that I think that that is
00:07:37
Speaker
a general idea to accept the fact that whatever the camera decides to take a picture of, or you decide the camera takes a picture of, that that thing, that you're, you're giving the camera all of the credit then, essentially, in that, in that way.
00:07:58
Speaker
You're not crediting the person that built the composition. You're not necessarily crediting the way it was processed, because that's a huge thing that delineates the difference between an artful piece of photography versus a journalistic piece of photography, okay? So like, even when I'm doing critique sessions with people, if I see an image that looks like it was just straight out of camera,
00:08:27
Speaker
I won't say, Hey, this looks straight out of camera, edit it and come back to me. Cause that's rude. Number one, but number two, there's a category for that style of photography, which is more journalistic in approach where I'm going to show up to this place. I'm going to photograph it, do minimal editing, and then come back and show you. And those images, you'll be like, okay, it looks like Mesa arch. Right. But then if I take that same Mesa arch, and then I imbue.
00:08:55
Speaker
because I think imbue is a very important word here, my artistic vision into the piece throughout the post-production process, that now becomes an extension of me because I've turned a photo journalistic shot straight out of camera into an experience for the person who's going to be looking at it. And there's a huge difference between a photo journalistic shot
00:09:22
Speaker
and a shot that has been processed for artistic rendering because you're trying to create an experience. And the only way you create that experience is to understand that the image by itself with no mood, no feeling and no emotion is in fact a craft. I will agree with you in a hundred percent, but the image that then gets portrayed to you that an artist or a skilled photographer, if they, cause I know many are many photographers that come to me.
00:09:49
Speaker
I will call them an artist and they'll say, no, I'm not an artist. I'm just a photographer. And I'm going to, no, no, no, no, no, no. Based on the image you shared with me, you are not just a photographer. Period. Okay. Cause I felt something very strong when I saw that piece that came through with the color grading, it came through with your tonal choices and it came through from the composition all the way through to the end. All of that individually is a craft, but.
00:10:15
Speaker
I would say it's the unification of all of that that creates a piece of art. So saying that the picture becomes art when you add your color and your color grading and your whatever finishing to it.
00:10:41
Speaker
Um, and saying, you know, and you, you, you had your example of that person, you know, like, Oh, I'm not an artist here. Yes, you are. Cause I felt something. I guess what I would say to that would be. They're really good photographer because they do it well, because there's bad photographers that don't, and then there's good photographers that do, but
00:11:05
Speaker
changing the name of that photographer because they're really good at their job. To me,
00:11:13
Speaker
It waters down the term of art because somebody was really good at something. Because then we can just call anything art, which I guess maybe it is. I think hopefully people see the fun spirit in this discussion because you know as well as I know because we get a lot of YouTube videos and somebody's gonna say, why are you even talking about this? This is stupid. Who cares?
00:11:42
Speaker
And we're of the mindset of like, hey, listen, it ain't going to change one thing I do. I'm still going to do the same stuff I'm going to do. You're going to do the same stuff. You're going to do what, what we call what we call it is.
00:11:56
Speaker
immaterial to all of this. So it's just the spirit of the discussion. And I think what's cool about it is because I've got interesting stories about why I feel the way I do. And I think you'll start to uncover some of my hidden emotions in all this. But here's what I would say. And by the way, dude, I know you studied stuff, your art and stuff in college. I know nothing about anything.
00:12:26
Speaker
except how to use Lightroom in Photoshop and a camera. But I don't even know famous photographers, Ansel Adams, probably the only, you know, previous, you know, historic photographer I know, but I looked up somebody because I kind of remember Henry, was it Henry Cartier, Bresson? Bresson? People are going to make fun of me. I'm fine with that. Like, I've never seen a photo with Cartier. Yeah, you just start with Cartier. He typically goes by Henry Cartier, but yeah.
00:12:53
Speaker
I'd never seen a photo from him that never cared to study art history or photography history in any way. However, I look him up, and I'm looking at his photos, and he didn't edit or color grade or do anything to it. It's a blurry picture of a guy jumping over a puddle. And you could say, well, the blur means something. So here is a picture of a guy riding a bike.
00:13:22
Speaker
He's looking down on a winding staircase. So he didn't edit this. Photoshop didn't exist when he took this. There is a level
History and Unexpected Artistry
00:13:30
Speaker
of editing that you can do in the darkroom though. And that's the thing. Do you know that he did that? I do not because I don't know. I haven't studied him to that level. But I would venture to say that anybody in that time would be just like you and me as a photographer who
00:13:48
Speaker
we aren't good enough with just taking it out of camera. Like even, even back in the late nineties when I would do analog photography, I was, as soon as I took the picture, I'd go into the dark room, you'd take a test print and that test print would almost be as con that wouldn't be as contrasty as you'd want it to be. So then what do you have to do? You have to look at that test print and you have to say, okay, I'm going to boost up the contrast in this area by giving it a more or less light, depending on what, what direction you're trying to take it, which to, to our common,
00:14:18
Speaker
terminology these days is dodging and burning you'd make little cutouts sometimes cutting out the print exactly like a little piece of Cardboard and cutting it out so that you could block out parts of the enlarger to make certain areas darker than other areas or certain areas lighter than other areas Ansel Adams So did this so much that after he did a test print He would mark up that image with what he thought his say the test print was 10 seconds He would then take that test print He'd take a marker and he'd write 10 seconds on one part then 12 seconds on this part then 8 seconds on this part
00:14:48
Speaker
and the whole act of working under the enlarger was the art form, was the idea that we're going to take this image and we're going to really put some work into it. Ansel Adams was the king of the darkroom work. I don't contest that at all. But I would say that even Henry Cartier was. So Henry Cartier preferred never to use the darkroom to adjust his photos.
00:15:18
Speaker
Really? So, I mean, I would argue people would consider him an artist, you know, if you were to study the history of photography. Oh, definitely. He is deemed as an artist. So, to go back to another point where we talked about, like, what art was, how photography was art. So, why isn't somebody, and this is the analogy that I'll use often, there, somebody decides to go paint the interior of a house, okay?
00:15:48
Speaker
And, you know, you hire the cheapest guy out there and he just goes and buys, you know, just the basic eggshell off white color and paints the house. And then you hire somebody else who actually color coordinates to the tile, color coordinates to the floors, maybe even has a couple of accent walls, maybe who knows, uses wallpaper or whatever it happens to be.
00:16:12
Speaker
Why isn't that person an artist? They didn't do anything. They just didn't have a camera. They had a can of paint and a paintbrush where I have a camera. Why does me having a camera make me an artist and what they did not make them one? They are. I would say that's an art form. We talked about this and you said there's no way that the painter was the guy that paints the house as an artist.
00:16:38
Speaker
The eggshell for sure.
Craftsmanship Leading to Artistry
00:16:40
Speaker
No way. But no, you got a person that's going to go in there and say, okay, based on the way this looks. See, I would say an artist in any field is somebody who looks at something differently than normal people. Okay. They have a certain style. They have a certain aesthetic. They have a certain, um, way in which they work that takes whatever it is that they're doing and brings it up another level. Right.
00:17:05
Speaker
So now you got the eggshell painter versus the one who's can walk into, and I can't walk into a room and say, well, based on this, this, and this, we should try this. I mean, I probably could if I really wanted to, but like for me, I'm like, well, let's just paint the wall this color, right? Even though I am an artist and I paint, but painting a wall versus like perfect example, I used to be a painter. Before I was a photographer, I was a painter. I would take pictures and I would paint the stuff in my pictures and make my own composites as paintings before I learned how to do Photoshop work.
00:17:36
Speaker
And then as I started to get better in Photoshop and photography, I started to take that to the next level. So taking that concept with the person who's painting the wall with the eggshell and taking the painter that's painting the wall based on the colors and the tile and the stuff that's around there, they are color coordinating things in a way that normal people don't typically see unless they have developed a craft over a long period of time to get to the point of artistry with that craft.
00:18:05
Speaker
So I would almost say that craft leads to artistry. Yeah. I mean, I guess I just look at it as they're good craftsmen. They're a better craftsman than, you know, Joe Schmo around the corner who does the job for half the price. You know, they're just a better, they're better at that craft than somebody else. But it doesn't take it to art to me.
00:18:36
Speaker
because that's probably the difference for me. I think that that's a good example. So like recently I paid a guy, the same guy who did my headshot, I paid him to do a family portrait session for us. So yeah, I paid him 325 for the sitting fee and then basically $1,200, $1,500 for the downloads of the digital images. So that's $1,800 for a portrait session.
00:19:04
Speaker
that there is nobody else in my little niche of Missouri that can create those types of images. There's no way. You probably could have gotten it done cheaper from the hobbyist that has a part-time business in it, right? Exactly. The hobbyist that did it part-time probably would have paid the 325, which would have covered the sitting fee, covered the digital images, and probably covered some prints if I asked them for them, versus
00:19:34
Speaker
You know, this one individual, his name's Jeremy Ellsworth. He's actually was in like the top 100 for senior portraits, I think last year or the year prior. But I mean, fantastic artist. He's taken the craft of photography and turn it into so much of an art form that if I were to take that image and go to one of the hobbyists in town, say, hey, can you reproduce this for me and my family? There's no way they could.
00:19:59
Speaker
Because number one, he's using a flash. He's got a studio set up. He's got the composition of how he builds the family when he puts them inside the shot. Not to mention the amount of the level of editing that he does. I mean, it's these are beautiful, beautiful portraits that can only be called art. And when you see them, there is no denying them as art. So so you're you're equating art to being really good at it. Not necessarily, because if you go to art school,
00:20:29
Speaker
You'll know that there's a lot of people that good is a relative term in the art world, Matt. Good is literally a relative term. But I would say in the field of photography, yes, there is a upscaled version of the craft when it comes to photography that you just don't take a picture straight out of the camera and say, I'm an artist. Your composition maybe shows that.
00:20:58
Speaker
Maybe you have a great composition, but it's where you place the tonal values. It's where you place the colors. It's how you position this thing so that this photograph that you're about to show somebody is no longer a depiction of the object. It's an experience of it. So the reason why his portraits are so phenomenal is he has created an experience for the viewer. Not saying that because he has expensive gear, that's not what did it.
00:21:26
Speaker
I mean, you know, when he did my head shots, he didn't have like a Canon R5. He had like a, I don't know. I don't even remember what kind of Canon he had, but it wasn't like the best of the best in the industry. But he was creating phenomenal work with what he had because he saw like an artist, he thought like an artist, and he didn't let the tools in the craft get in the way of him creating an experience
Intention in Photography Artistry
00:21:46
Speaker
for the viewer. I think artists, I guess to go back to that, artists create experiences. They don't make pictures. They create experiences.
00:21:56
Speaker
Like when, when I make an image of Colorado, I want you to feel what I felt when I was there. So I have to tap into my emotional pool of when I was there, tap into that while I'm there and then use that as energy that I can essentially put into the piece. And you're, you know, you're pushing tones, you're pushing colors. Yes. But you're also knowing where to place certain colors, what colors need to be brightened, what colors need to be darkened.
00:22:23
Speaker
what tone of eyes need to be brightened, what tone of eyes need to be darkened. And that's not something that just happens from picking up a box and taking a picture with it. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm glad you approach the topic of good and bad art. Because I think I said I'm willing to peel back the layers of why I dig my heels in on photography not being art. And one of the reasons is over the years,
00:22:51
Speaker
I've just been part of too many conversations, too many discussions online, too many photo critiques, too many everythings where someone hides behind it. So I think it's good we're talking about it this way because whether or not I agree with you that photography is art, what I love that you're saying is that
00:23:17
Speaker
is that it's got to be good. There's a difference between good and bad. And you can't blanketly call it art and then stand on, well, it's art, so anything goes. And I've seen it happen way too many times. I can't even count the number of online conversations where somebody posts something
00:23:41
Speaker
and asks for thoughts, then people jump in and say this and this and this and say, well, I don't think it's this, I think it's this. And then somebody comes back and says, well, you know, photography is an art, this is art, so anything goes. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. To me, that does a disservice to people that are good at the art or the craft of it, either way, whatever you want to call it. It does a disservice. There is bad looking art. You can't hide behind it.
00:24:10
Speaker
and say it's art, so it can be whatever I want to. And you could, but it just means it's bad. Like you're saying, hey, I'm gonna stand behind this, but it's not good, you know? In context though, it depends though, because even that bad artwork could still move somebody. I look at it this way, I cannot stand Bob Dylan. I think Bob Dylan is the most annoying artist in the singing world
00:24:40
Speaker
ever to release an album. But then you have Freddie Mercury of Queen, probably one of the greatest voices in rock that ever existed, had range that could go all over the place. Yet both of them get put in the same term as artists. But Freddie Mercury, what he could do with his voice versus Bob Dylan, what he could do with his voice.
00:25:04
Speaker
I just can't relate to Bob Dylan, but I can relate to Freddie Mercury and just that vocal range that is gorgeous. And now in every form of art, you have that same concept. Like you might argue that intentional camera movement and things that kind of create abstractions, like is that bad art because it's blurry and out of focus or is that bad craft or is that an art form? You see what I mean?
00:25:34
Speaker
you know, the ICM intentional care movement where maybe you're trying to jitter the while you're photographing city lights and you get the squigglies and stuff like that. Like that's technically, it's a, it's something that we would call not picking the right exposure value for the shot that worked out in your favor because it looks like art. I do think there's got to be a bit of intention put into it.
00:26:00
Speaker
It can be when we're when we're when we're critiquing the photo that I mean what's an example we're critiquing the photo where you know I don't know it's a landscape photo it's got some trees in it and somebody clearly cropped too tight in on the trees you know it just it looks it looks odd right or maybe oh here's a great one you got a mountain with a lake right and you got the peak of the mountain
00:26:28
Speaker
Okay, and let's say somebody cropped like just a few pixels above that peak of the mountain. And they didn't do it on purpose. It wasn't like, no, I wanna create tension. They did it because like, oh no, I just, you know, I wanna, I don't know, whatever. But like, I think then we could say, okay, this isn't good. You didn't do it on purpose. You didn't do it with the purpose of creating something.
00:26:56
Speaker
You really went against a pretty good law of composition that works, and it works for a reason, and you don't have a good reason for doing it the other way, you know? So I think intention has to be part of it, no matter what.
Personal Experiences and Art Perception
00:27:12
Speaker
But there have also been some really happy accidents I've had that have turned into some of my best course material. Yeah, but I'm not going to call you an artist because of it. It's a happy accident. But if I don't tell you it was an accident, then I'm a freaking amazing artist.
00:27:28
Speaker
I guess you could go there. But no, I mean, I just look at it. To me, what got me down this path is I was in a discussion we were talking about. And also part of this is
00:27:46
Speaker
I can't use the words that I would normally use in a conversation because we don't want to get our podcast marked as having profanity in it. But there's an overall tone of, and I've been around a lot of, I'm doing air quotes artists over the last 25 years. There's an overall tone that just rubs me the wrong way.
00:28:11
Speaker
And I guess part of my feeling also comes from that. I'm influenced by that. I'm influenced by the way that I've seen people act and speak toward their photography and the aura that I've seen them present to that. And that affects it as well. So I can't lie about that one. But I was having a discussion with somebody about wedding photography.
00:28:37
Speaker
And then they were like, oh God, yeah, the artist, the artist, the way that they put the bride and groom over here. And I'm like, not an artist. You're a craftsman. You're hired to do a job.
Wedding Photography: Art or Craft?
00:28:51
Speaker
Somebody was hired to make food for that wedding. You were hired to take a picture of that wedding. You are no better, no worse than the person that was hired to clean up the tables for that wedding. You all played a role in that wedding.
00:29:07
Speaker
Whether it was food, whether it was the tablecloths on the table or whether it was the photos from it. You were all served a job for that wedding. You're not an artist. You're not an artist because you serve food at the wedding. Does the food move people? Food moves people all the time. I would say that that's different though. Like if your aunt Susie was at the wedding and took pictures with her cell phone versus the individual who has been paid because of their
00:29:35
Speaker
their level to elevate photographs, to create feeling and mood. I give a perfect example. I really wish I would have paid someone more to photograph our wedding, because I paid the person who basically did photojournalistic shots of us. And they look like photojournalistic shots where they took no effort to post-process these images at all. Now, there's a reason why someone would hire somebody who can elevate those things, who is more of an artist with that camera than a craftsman.
00:30:04
Speaker
because the artist is going to imbue that image with feeling, with mood, and create an experience for any viewer who sees it, right? Like, I love my wife. I love her probably more today than I did when I first married her, for sure. But someone who is an expert with the camera and the post-production of that image would have that same feeling, that same love in that photograph.
00:30:33
Speaker
And a lot you thought a lot of art and photography to post production. Oh, absolutely. Because if you ever look at my discovering your vision course, like I break down what the camera sees, I break down what the eye sees, I break down how the camera interprets a scene, I break down how the human interprets the scene. And there are two polarizing different things. The camera only captures one instance of an exposure value. That's the exposure value you choose. It captures one instance of white balance.
00:31:01
Speaker
Now, when it captures that one instance of white balance, what's it doing? More yellow, more blue. That's it. Okay. So as the artist who has that camera and looks at that scene, they know that there's a differentiation between the yellow over there and the green over there and the red and the foreground. The camera based on the white balance might make all that stuff look relatively the same. So the artist then has to go in and say, okay.
00:31:26
Speaker
Camera, thank you for gathering this data for me. That's how I approach art. That's how I approach my photography as an art form. When I have the camera in my hand, I do not feel like an artist. In many cases, when I'm on location, I do not feel like an artist. I feel like a data collector who is collecting the data in front of me, almost like a ghostbuster, throwing the trap down, clicking the button, pulling it in, okay? Then when I get home. So you're saying with the camera in hand, you're only a data collector. You're not an artist at that point.
00:31:54
Speaker
Uh, I'd say for the most part, yeah. Other than my compositional decisions. Yeah. But composition can be pretty easily taught. So I did. I disagree, but yeah, I think it's the hardest thing. Really? Because for me, I mean, I dunno, maybe, maybe it just happens because of the way my brain is wired. But for me, I think only 10% of my photograph happens in camera. 90% happens in post-production at least.
00:32:24
Speaker
Yeah. So, I mean, so like when, you know, you might be going into Lightroom, Adobe Camera Raw, doing minimal edits and calling the image done. When I go into Lightroom, Adobe Camera Raw, Camera Raw for me, Lightroom for you, whatever that is. I process that to get it to a point that looks real, to the point that I felt when I was on location. Then I bring it into Photoshop and that's where I, that's where I play.
00:32:49
Speaker
That's why I allow my mood in. That's why I allow my experience. There is no image that I post to my Facebook or Instagram or anywhere that has not gone through extensive Photoshop work. But I guess, I guess what I would say to that is it, how, how am, how am I not art? Because I chose to use a smaller subset of tools than you did. I don't, I think you are an artist, but you don't think you are.
00:33:18
Speaker
But I'm generally not, you seem to equate, and this is just knowing you and talking to you for a long time, you seem to equate the quality of the Lightroom and Photoshop work to the complexity of the tools used. I definitely have produced
Tools and Creativity in Photography
00:33:40
Speaker
some really good images straight at the raw level, but the difference between the raw level and the Photoshop level is that
00:33:48
Speaker
In Photoshop, I've got extensive masking that's far beyond Adobe Camera on Lightroom. I've got blend modes, I've got blend if, I've got, you know, there's so many, there's no limit to what you can do in Photoshop, right? I'm not saying I'm Photoshopping my images, that every image gets a sky replacement and every image has rocks move all over the place. That's not what I do. I just look at the tonal values, I look at the colors, I have access to more stuff without restriction.
00:34:17
Speaker
Think of it like a semi-truck that has a governor on it. To me, that's what Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw are, even though I still use them in my workflow. But a Ferrari has no governor, and you can go as fast as you want down that road. It ain't gonna stop you at 65. So Photoshop is the Ferrari, Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw, these days are actually becoming probably more like a Ford F-150 than a Mac truck. But you know what I'm saying? The idea is that I can do so much more
00:34:46
Speaker
that helps me imbue my vision into the piece through Photoshop that I just can't do. I just can't do that at the raw level. And I guess I would say like I think I think somebody could though. And I don't think they're I don't think if we were calling it art, I don't think they'd be less of an artist because they did.
00:35:07
Speaker
No, I don't think so either. That's my preferred process as Photoshop. And you and I talk about it a lot. I disagree. I disagree with Blend If and Gradients and all the different masking tools in Photoshop. I actually think they're superior.
00:35:23
Speaker
in the raw editor. I think if we were to go down to a technical level, you have much more color control because you have more, you have more, by your term, data in the raw editor than you ever will inside of Photoshop. Because the moment you moved to Photoshop, you lost a significant amount of data. I think you need to take some of my courses.
00:35:44
Speaker
So if you have seen what you can do with a gradient in photoshop versus a gradient I've seen your tutorial. I see it. It's just I I don't see it the way that you see it Right, you know, I just I I still I still want to color I still will will infuse color into my photos. I will mask I will do these things but
00:36:08
Speaker
the way that I do them, I feel like I get more control over it, you know, I get more I get I get actually, I know, to me, it's a smoother edit, it's easier edit it, edit it, but but again, it's just it's just different methods. There's no right, no way we could say it's right or wrong. I don't think the complexity of the method has to indicate that somebody is more of an artist than somebody else.
00:36:34
Speaker
No, but what I'm saying is that the tool sets that are available to you in Photoshop give you more leeway to put your vision into a piece than Adobe Camera All in Lightroom. Maybe not so much these days as it used to be, because there is a lot you can do at Adobe Camera All in Lightroom now at the raw level that we could never do before. And I would say that people who are starting to venture down those paths are probably tapping into more of their artistry because they're seeing these tools that give them more accessibility
00:37:04
Speaker
to their vision to put it into the piece. So like, you know, with the advanced masking that's in Adobe Camera Roll now and Lightroom and at that roll level, you can do quite a bit with it. With the point color, you can do quite a bit with it. But there's still just this level of a stopping point that you're going to get to where you just can't get where you need to go. If you if you were to just go into Photoshop, you can do anything you want.
Subscribers' Insights on Art and Craft
00:37:30
Speaker
Now, I mean,
00:37:31
Speaker
I'm not saying that everything I do is composited and I don't wanna take any credit away from anybody who doesn't use Photoshop that does consider themselves an artist because I think that even if you do use Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom and you process only at the raw level and you never jump into Photoshop, you still can create art in those areas. I'm just saying that the level of tools and the complexity of the tools that are in Photoshop give you more advantage for creating. So take somebody like Joe McNally. Okay. So I'm sure you would call Joe McNally an artist.
00:38:02
Speaker
I would be. Yeah. So Joe McNally literally opens up a photo and cranks the contrast slider to about 20% and is done. Okay. So how are you doing the bulk of that work on the front end? Because what a true artist, especially a true craftsman of the camera knows is that the camera is about capturing light. So it's the quality of the light that's in front of you.
00:38:29
Speaker
If the quality of the light is in front of you and is beautiful and is perfect, there's very minimal that you do need to do. Now, if you're a landscape photographer, that's completely different than portrait stuff. And Joe McNally is traditionally a portrait photographer with an environmental portrait photographer. But his art form comes in the way that he dresses up the scene, sets up the lights, builds the composition because he's building an experience. Joe McNally builds an experience, period.
00:38:58
Speaker
I've always looked at his stuff from the beginning of the time of me following newer age photographers and said, that guy has something that no one else does. Because even if he doesn't do a whole lot of work in Adobe camera, all Lightroom, Photoshop, whatever that might be, he is building the experience at the level that the experience is happening, which is extremely impressive. I can't do that as much because I haven't put myself in that environment to do that as much. Yeah.
00:39:24
Speaker
But the more I'm working with lights and like I'm photographing my family this weekend and or last weekend I photographed my family and I brought up a light and you know, I get the light set up just right, put a grid on it to get some nice dramatic light and do the whole nine yards. And those images after I got the light on them crafted the way I want it to be, they're very simple to post process. Almost, I'm almost like Joe McNally in that there is very little I needed to do to those images other than maybe doctoring up skin tones and tonal variations and maybe doing some cleanup.
00:39:54
Speaker
but they were very easy to process. And I noticed that too when I learned from Joel Grimes. I went to a Joel Grimes workshop two years ago and very much the same thing. The art was in the light placement. The art was in the way you position the person or the character that's going to be in that scene. That was the art. And there wasn't much post-production that needs to happen after that when the quality of the light is so good. But you're, again, it's all,
00:40:24
Speaker
Here's what I would say. So, and this is really good to kind of talk about, to kind of segue into this, is that I have my roundtables on F64 Elite. So last month I said, okay guys, I'm going to be facing off with Matt. Give me some firepower for this whole craft versus art event. So, Diana says that art and that it's both. It's not this or that, it's both. Photography is both a craft and an art.
00:40:53
Speaker
Which then Jay, another subscriber said that you use the craft to develop your art. So you get to be such of a good craftsmanship. You get to such a high level of craftsmanship that you are starting to create art using the craft as the medium to get to the art. And then, you know, later Colin, he had said that the craft comes before the art, meaning you are typically a craftsman.
00:41:20
Speaker
before you're considered an artist, before you even yourself consider yourself an artist. And I go back to a subscriber I have named John. John, he first came to me and was like, you keep calling people artists. I'm not an artist. And he went on and told me like his, his whole story on how he was an engineer and he has an engineer's mind and he doesn't have an artist's mind and that he appreciates the fact that I call people artists, but he would never consider himself an artist. Okay. Now two years later, this guy who was very,
00:41:49
Speaker
Logically minded, very craftsman oriented. John is like, thank you, Blake, you've made me an artist. I can finally accept myself as an artist. So this is someone who had a high level of craftsmanship, who just enjoyed the craft. But then over time is now thinking to themselves, well, maybe this is more than just a craft. Maybe this is an art form. Maybe I am an artist. Maybe I can accept that.
00:42:12
Speaker
The way I like to tell people is just like the shirt that I'm wearing right now. It looks like I'm going to the chamber. I've got a little sticky thing on my shirt that says, hello, my name is artist. I haven't seen that. So the idea here is that I am an artist first as the primary category, and then I'm a photographer second. So that's secondary to the art as an artist.
00:42:36
Speaker
It is freeing and it is liberating knowing that I can create in any way, shape, or form I want. I'm an artist in the kitchen. I'm an artist when I work on my Jeep. I'm an artist when I work on my photos. I'm an artist when I'm hanging downstairs with my kids and playing with Legos. Like to me, an artist is someone, all an artist is, is to me, is a very creative problem solver.
00:43:01
Speaker
Right. You see that contradicts what you said before because you were alluding to art being the ultimate elevation of having gone through all the stages of being a craftsman. Right. And while in photo editing or photography, you could be there. I mean, who knows, dude, you might you might be the secret Jeep mechanic that I never knew. But I'm going to guess that you you haven't
00:43:29
Speaker
You haven't reached that level in working on your Jeep or cooking. And maybe you have. And I just, you've got some secret talents I never knew about. Well, with cooking, it's one of those things like my wife will be like, did you follow a recipe for this? I'm like, well, I mean, I use the recipe as a base, but I didn't follow all the directions. She's like, well, it's great. How did you make this? I'm like, I don't
Artistry in Everyday Tasks
00:43:50
Speaker
know. I mean, I'll make it again some other time, but it's not going to taste the same. It's going to be a little bit different because that's how an artist treats things.
00:43:56
Speaker
And the funny thing is that she works at, like, Wednesdays and Thursdays, she works at her friend's eatery, and her friend Haley, who is a, she went to culinary school and worked with many high-end restaurants in Chicago and stuff. She's the same way. Like, she's teaching Sarah how to make this stuff, but she has nothing written down. She just builds this stuff, and she creates amazing food. So I think once you get to a certain point of artistry,
00:44:26
Speaker
And you know, okay, well, I've done it this way before and this tasted like this. Well, what happens when we combine this with this? And then you start to become an artist, even in the kitchen, like I make spaghetti meatballs. My meatballs always taste different every single time, but every time they still taste great. It's one of those things that like, you just start to know what's going to work. So you do it, but that's based off of the craft. When I first moved to California, I didn't get a microwave. I didn't want a microwave.
00:44:53
Speaker
because I knew I was going to buy microwavable food. So I told my mom, I said, I'm not buying a microwave. I'm just going to learn how to cook. My mom sent me this giant box of cooking supplies of like high end stainless steel cooking supplies. And she said, if you're going to do it, you got to do it the right way. Get the right tools and then build from there. So I would spend every weekend making horrible food sometimes and throwing it away because I definitely was not a craftsman, nor was I an artist in the kitchen. I had to build myself up to that point so that now
00:45:24
Speaker
20-some years later, I can cook things without having to follow a recipe. I can cook things with, you know what I mean? It's whether I'm doing it for my family or I'm doing it for others. If we have people over, my wife's not cooking. I'm cooking. I'm the one doing all the cooking. She'll do all the entertaining, but I'm the cook. Because there's a certain level of artistry that goes into it. I think part of it is
00:45:49
Speaker
And again, I said this in the beginning, I'm willing to pull back the layers. Part of it is, I think to be called an artist, to want to be called an artist, you have to want to be called the term. And over the years, I've developed such a negative connotation
00:46:11
Speaker
to art and artistry that I don't want to be called an artist.
The Label of 'Artist' and Creativity
00:46:16
Speaker
So you can call me an artist, but in my mind, I have a certain image of what an artist is and that's not me. And can I take a photo, can I take a landscape or a wildlife photo as good as anybody out there and can I process it probably better than anybody out there next to you and I?
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, but to me, I don't want to be called an artist because of it. But I think that that could be holding you back. I don't feel held back. You don't, because you... I feel pretty good about it. Right, but let's just say like, okay... What don't I do well that I need to get better? I think that by you not accepting photography as an art form... Careful how you answer this, Blake. I know.
00:47:07
Speaker
I think you're holding yourself back from your best possible work to allow yourself to be able to put that mood and the emotion into the image, not just process it to make it look like you saw it, but to process it to make it look like you felt. But I think anybody that follows me and anybody that's taken my courses would say, I value creativity infinitely more than tech.
00:47:38
Speaker
I would venture to say 75% of the people listening to this podcast know photography better than me. They can tell you everything about a camera better than me. They can probably even technically tell you better things about Photoshop than me. They know photography better than I do. I don't even know the history of photography. I'm sure I butchered somebody's name before. I don't care.
00:48:05
Speaker
I have always, always valued the way it looks above all, which I'm working on this Lightroom thing now in this new Lightroom workflow. And it's like, I got all these people emailing me and questioning and all this stuff about, well, it doesn't have hierarchical keywords and it doesn't have, what's the other features? And oh, it won't go into Plo. And I'm just like, who cares? Make it look good.
00:48:32
Speaker
So that's an artist. That's an artist would say that I would disagree with. Yeah, but I would disagree with what you're saying because again, it's probably just semantics where we're using the same terms. My guess is and this is a good way to kind of start bringing this in for a landing because we got to wrap it up here.
00:48:49
Speaker
But I think what this, we're using the same terms to describe things or we're using different terms to describe the same things. I have preexisting conditions and preexisting thoughts on why I don't think photography is an art. And I told you what I think art is that not that it matters, but I have preexisting thoughts on that. And at the same time,
00:49:16
Speaker
I 100% value the creative over the tech. And I know, you don't watch my courses, I don't watch your courses, but anybody that's taken my no light, no problem courses, anybody that's taken my wildlife editing courses knows, I'm like, guys, forget about the noise reduction, forget about the sharpening, forget about the crop ratio, make the stupid thing look amazing, make it look like either how it did when you were there,
00:49:43
Speaker
if the camera didn't capture it or make it look like how you wished it looked when you were there. That's an artist. The creative is the most important part. So as I said, I think it's semantics. I think I'm using the term creative. You're using the term art where I think and the same thing goes. A lot of people would say they're not a creative. I remember having this discussion with Scott Kelby when they renamed Kelby one and he wanted to call it Kelby creative.
00:50:10
Speaker
And I was like, don't call it because it's a it's a gathering of creatives. I said, don't call it that because not everybody sees themselves as a creative. So I don't think that's a good name for it because I know people I said, oh, you're a creative. No, I'm not a creative. I just take pictures. Yeah, but you're really good and creative at it. Yeah, I just take pictures. No, see, you're not, though. That's the thing. You already are a photographer. You already are an artist photographer.
00:50:37
Speaker
You already are. You're just not accepting the term artist attached to it. You know the picture of the eagles? You were standing there when I took it. You know the picture of the eagles clashing talon with the fish? It's like I look at that and to me it's a bird in the sky. Now does it move you? You could say like my whole goal is to get somebody to say wow.
00:51:00
Speaker
So people use that, I had somebody email me the other day, it's moving, it's feeling, it punches you in the gut. And I'm like, listen, my wife tells me I'm dead inside all the time. I'm like, I don't get moved by anything. I know when I look at something, I'm like, wow, that's cool.
00:51:21
Speaker
You know, but there's no way I can call a picture of a bird in the sky art. And you can't tell me it's art. You can't tell me that there was any other way to process that photo. The sky should be blue. Crank up the shadow slider because the eagles needed a little bit more detail. There's no tones in it. There's no color. It's a crisp blue sky. It's the easiest edit ever.
00:51:46
Speaker
No, it's just a thing. To make it take 20 minutes would be a disservice to the photo because it doesn't need it. But it's dying inside. You're killing me. Put a picture of a bird on a stick. I'm not gonna say that's art. I can't. But you have to look at from these two perspectives though. You take that picture of the bird on the stick and you look at the RAW file that came from the camera and then you look at your version and you tell me which one looks better. And you cannot tell me that they look the same.
Artistic Expression vs. Technical Flaws
00:52:16
Speaker
So if you're saying that the camera is the craft, the post-production is the art. Or post-production is a craft too. To a certain degree, yes. You have to be, you have to learn the craft. So in my Discovering Your Vision course, I talk about how frustrating it was for me as a young photographer.
00:52:43
Speaker
who had artistic vision through the roof, man. I could take a picture of a four leaf clover and be like, oh my gosh, it's the most amazing picture I've ever taken. I would never take that picture now, but back then I just had this revelation, this sudden urge that everything was an art. And I would take these pictures and I have a whole bunch of these images and they just look like pictures.
00:53:06
Speaker
And I would process them, but they just looked like a picture. I couldn't put that feeling into it yet. And the reason why I couldn't put that feeling or that emotion or that experience into it yet was because my vision level was high, but my execution level was low or my tech ability was low. But then as my tech ability got higher, I was able to meet my vision where it is. So now I'm at a point where I don't even need to think about that anymore because I know the program so well.
00:53:36
Speaker
I've got all that out of the way. I've got all the tech stuff. I've got all the craft stuff out of the way. So now it's just about the creativity and using my ability to again, fill that image with feeling and emotion and try to make someone feel like I felt. If someone tells me that my image looks painterly, that is the greatest compliment I could ever receive because I'm like, damn right. I got it right that time. Like that means that they felt something. It doesn't look like everybody else's.
00:54:06
Speaker
It has a certain thing to it that is different than everybody else's. And that is the ultimate compliment to me. You know, if I- Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say, so it's like what you're describing is, you know, I could say, I mean, can I say my, can I say a golfer's game is art? I would say, yeah, to a certain degree. Are you an artist? Sure. Okay. Because you know that there are some people that have,
00:54:34
Speaker
that have exceeded the level that the craft can take them. And the only way to get, like you can get every structure for every swing perfectly fine, correct? And then you're just basically a robot who whacks a ball across a field. But there's a certain level of creativity on how that swing is hit. Whether you, um, whether you curve it, whether you, you know what I mean? Like there's,
00:54:58
Speaker
That, that becomes the creative problem solving of that course. Like I said, all artists are creative problem solvers. You know, you, there's, you got a problem. Okay. We can figure it out. There's no, there's no, no, I can't do it. There's no, I can't, there's always going to be a way that we're going to fix it.
Conclusion: Skill and Artistry
00:55:13
Speaker
However, that is with anything, you know? And I think that the great thing about being an artist though, just to wrap it all up is that there is nothing that I cannot do. I know that 100%.
00:55:28
Speaker
I never once in my entire life turned a wrench on a Jeep on, on any vehicle. My dad wasn't a mechanic. He never did any of that stuff. There was, if there was even a slight problem with his vehicle, he'd take it in and he pays someone an astronomical amount of money to tell him that there's nothing wrong. Right. But I don't look at it that way. I say, okay, well I've done this before. So because I've done that, I can translate that over to here and use creative problem solving to fix whatever issue that might be. And no, my Jeep is not held together by duct tape.
00:55:57
Speaker
But the concept is that there's nothing that holds you back. Like, there's nothing that can hold me back. And you can take me from photography and you can put me into painting again, or you can take me from photography and put me into 3d printing. And it doesn't matter. It's like I'm an artist, so I'm going to figure it out. And I'm going to do things that other people don't do in the same space.
00:56:24
Speaker
So I'll wrap it up by saying, I think what I've gained from this is that I think a lot of it is semantics. It's just words that we probably, in some ways, we probably think the same thing. We just call it different terms. Right. I would say is probably a good takeaway from it.
00:56:48
Speaker
You know, I've got preexisting thoughts on what art and artists are. So it's the kind of thing I'll never want to be one just because of, you know, and you don't fall into those like you're, you're, you're different. But again, I just, I had 25 years of, of having to work very, very closely with people that call themselves artists. And it made me want to run the other way and never be called that. Yeah. Well, that's, that's an ego thing. That's not an artist thing. Yeah.
00:57:16
Speaker
But I think a lot of it does come down, and I think we knew this going in, but I think a lot of it does come down to semantics. I still kind of consider art to be something creative from nothing, but I think what I hear from you a lot too is art is the ultimate elevation of craft and skill and time and energy of things put together to where you're at the top of the field, then you're an artist.
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that. I would say that. But I would definitely think that you can't, I don't think you can get to an expert level of artistry without understanding the craft too, especially in photography. Actually in everything, photography is probably the key that that is most critical because I use this term a lot, artistic expression or technical flaw.
00:58:09
Speaker
And I see a lot of people that will create a technical flaw and hide it behind this artistic expression. Yes, that's what I was talking about before. That's where I was going with that whole story about like, I'm tired of seeing these, I've gotten tired of seeing these conversations over the years. It's art, so it can be anything I want it to be.
00:58:27
Speaker
No, no. And that's the thing. Artistic expression versus technical flaw. If somebody is doing it, and they don't realize how that effect happened, and they're calling it art, and you and I know that that's a blown highlight, and it looks atrocious, that is not an art. That is a blown highlight. It's a technical flaw, bro.
00:58:44
Speaker
But, well, I'm just using that as an example. I'd have to show you a picture in order for... Well, Henry Bresson, I mean, he's got blur in his photos. And I can see a few of them like that. So my guess is, is that is an artistic expression. Yeah. Yeah. I think after he did it a couple of times, he would figure out shutter speed and adjust it, but it seemed to be something he does a lot. He does never figure out how to use a camera.
00:59:11
Speaker
Poor guy. He's rolling in his grave. I wonder what his eagle shots would look like. They're so expressive. I would say, just to wrap it up, that especially in photography, the craft is critical to get right. And you have to go through the labor of learning the craft to get to a level of artistic. And I would say that going into it as an artist and defining yourself as an artist,
00:59:41
Speaker
that happens faster. Yeah, I would agree. I would say it happens faster that our assessment. Right. All right, man. I don't know that we I think I think it was a good discussion. I don't know that we necessarily, like I said in the beginning, I don't think we changed anybody's opinion. No, it was fun to do so. What work can everybody find out a little bit more about you, Mr. Rudis?
01:00:07
Speaker
F64academy.com, that's where all the fun stuff happens. That's where you make the magic. Sometimes. Actually, lately it's been over on F64. I haven't done a YouTube video in like a month.
01:00:17
Speaker
So that's what I'm doing this afternoon. Luckily, you have lots to go watch if somebody hasn't seen them yet. So yeah. All right. And you can find me over at MattK.com where I got my courses and presets and lots of free tutorials as well. So Blake, thanks for joining me on this one. I know we've been talking about it for a while. Yeah, we might have to like adjourn and come back and see if you think any different later. I won't. I'm interested to see the comments as well. So that'll be fun.
01:00:48
Speaker
All right. Thanks, man. Thank you, everybody, for joining in. And we will talk to you again soon. Bye, buddy.