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Diane Downs
225 Plays7 months ago
This week on the Mothers of All Crime we are chatting about Diane Downs. She rose to public attention after claiming a "shaggy haired stranger" shot her and her 3 young children. Hospital staff, witnesses and the police noted that she didn't seem upset and her behavior wasn't very motherly. A trial by media began as all of Diane's sordid secrets were revealed. Eventually a real criminal trial would ensue. Diane was 9 months pregnant when she was given a life sentence (with possibility of parole). There are some uplifting parts in this dark story with the surviving children. We also have a bit of a chuckle reviewing Mrs. Down's many attempts at parole. Join us as we discuss this mother murderer.
Listener discretion is advised.
May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Mothers of All Crime'
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Mothers of All Crime. This is a podcast where we deep dive into mothers involved in infamous crimes and scandals. I'm Monica and this is Crystal.
Who is Diane Downs?
00:00:35
Speaker
So our mother this week is Diane Downs, a notorious alleged female murderer. I don't know how familiar you are with Ms. Diane, but this is like one of my big true crime, like probably one of the things that I was first interested in in true crime, um a case that like I think about kind of often, I feel like. So I'm excited to talk about her, but I do feel like she is kind of obscure. And I don't know if it's the time period or
00:01:08
Speaker
I'm not sure, but i yeah yeah. That's interesting that this is your kind of intro into our obsession because she is an older case and she isn't someone that, so like we've talked about ones that we've lived through and that we may have seen on the news or very like popular. She is very obscure and I didn't really know too much about her until we have had conversations even before we started doing these recordings.
Impact of Diane's Case on Perceptions
00:01:37
Speaker
And she definitely is one of the OGs. She's definitely one of the earlier kind of female criminal sides that became popular. Because I think there is a lot of media attention per se, but not uncommon for a female to commit crime. But it really was the time period when in society started accepting it and realizing that women, particularly mothers, are capable of some really horrific stuff. Absolutely. I mean, as women gained more rights, we also gained more consequences, which is, in my opinion, a good thing. But I think that there were a lot of
00:02:23
Speaker
Murders, attempted murders, especially child abuse type things that maybe weren't picked up by the media, weren't viewed the way that they are now. And I think that Diane Downs changed how a lot of people view moms and women in general. She was infamous for sure. And I think that maybe it's just, it wasn't in our lifetime, it's an older case than we are. So I think maybe that, you know,
00:02:53
Speaker
that could be why this wasn't like a big deal to you. I think that I just stumbled into some of her interviews and documentaries about her when I was a kid. And then she's always just sort of stuck in my head. And I've watched everything about her that's ever come out, I feel like.
Diane's Background and Early Life
00:03:11
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, why don't you start telling us who Diane is? Sure. So she was born Elizabeth Diane Downs, but she started going by Diane as a child and that's really stuck. I don't think anybody calls her Elizabeth. um Seems like she had a pretty normal childhood. It kind of depends on what time period. Diana speaking about her childhood and the way she describes it. There are definitely points where she talked about being abused, neglected, sexually molested by her parents, but
00:03:48
Speaker
I'm not sure if any of that is true because the stories have been very inconsistent. um She had three younger siblings who she felt got more attention than she did. And she grew up in a religious family and um ended up going to a very religious, very conservative college, which did not last very long because in the 80s, you could be kicked out of college, especially a Baptist college for being promiscuous. So she got kicked out like in the first semester. Which is wild to think about. Can you imagine if that was like a constant rule in today's modern age? Like almost everyone I know would have been kicked out of school.
Diane's Relationships and Marital Struggles
00:04:37
Speaker
Oh my God, definitely. I mean, I just think it's like what but college is for sort of, you know, like you're supposed to be a liberal promiscuous. I mean, I don't know how bad it was. It's hard hate to believe. It would be interesting to know like what their standard of promiscuity was because I think from society, but then also like the religious college side would probably have two different standards. Just like there are some universities, even now, like, uh,
00:05:07
Speaker
Brigham Young is a big one where there's still a lot of active moral clauses. And I know there's a couple other Christian and universities true that do the same thing, but none of the schools I went to did. They were all kind of, yeah no definite don't get arrested. I don't even know if there was a dress code at my college, but I went to a liberal school. I mean, I don't know.
00:05:37
Speaker
I don't know but I mean I don't know if it was her dressing or if she'd been caught engaging in sex or there was just rumors about her like I'm just not sure how that would be confirmed at the college level to the point that you'd get expelled but she certainly was expelled um and she came home and moved back in with her parents in Arizona after getting kicked out of college and got back together with a boyfriend that she had in high school, Steve Downs, because she was born Elizabeth Frederickson. And she got back together with Steve Downs. They got married. And so she became Diane Downs. She very, very quickly, so they got married in 1973. And then they had their first kid in 1974, Christy.
00:06:33
Speaker
And then they had another child in 1976, Cheryl. um So at that point, this is also something that there's multiple accounts of, but my understanding is after the birth of their second child, who was a very difficult baby in comparison to their first kid, they were having financial problems, marital problems, childcare problems,
00:07:00
Speaker
and Steve decided to get a vasectomy. And after that, she how to she had a pregnancy um and had an abortion. And then she felt a lot of conflicted feelings about that abortion. She had named the fetus and she wanted to replace the fetus. So she was trying to convince her husband to reverse his vasectomy. He would not. So she went on the hunt for sperm and seduced one of her friends and ended up having a child who she named after her husband, who was definitely not the father. So that's Stephen Daniel. Which is such an interesting tactic. Yeah. like
00:07:55
Speaker
name is weird. The fact that a husband also was kind of like, sure, name him after me, consciously knowing that he was not the father of this child is just wild to me. But I think it's interesting for conceptualizing it is that she openly announced, and i don't at her trial, I don't know if she ever said it prior to, but she married Steven to get away from her family and her parents, and she didn't marry him because she loved him. I think it was just a man of opportunity who loved her, so she took advantage of the situation.
00:08:37
Speaker
And it would be interesting if he, at some degree, was aware that she was kind of using him. And that's why he didn't have as much of a problem where like and he kind of just was expecting it to happen. it i can't try I'm trying so hard to rationalize his mindset here. Steve is a weird character to me.
00:09:02
Speaker
um
00:09:05
Speaker
I think that you love Diane, but I think that they also just had such a tumultuous, toxic, breaking up, getting back together a relationship. And I think there were many infidelities on both sides. And I think when you have a dynamic like that, and you also have two children that you're raising together that are definitely both of your biological children, and you're married,
00:09:31
Speaker
um I think that maybe he thought it was easier to stay together and embrace the baby as opposed to breaking up the family. Well, also in that time period, divorce was still looked down upon, particularly if you were raised in a traditional kind of household or any kind of religious household where your extramarital affairs and your financial issues and your disagreements was you just got over it. You either dealt with it or ignored it because divorce wasn't an option. And I think they were married and adults during that gray period where that's what they were taught, but the world was changing. So it kind of wasn't, it was an early error for divorce.
Diane's Personality and Maternal Instincts
00:10:25
Speaker
Yes. I could see that I think that it was it was a conflict of like religious upbringing and he was in the military and they had these obligations with their children and I think that I think that he was also having affairs and so it's also sort of hard to be like Diane is the only problem and I think that as we go on we're going to talk about how she's very manipulative and very charming. And I think that um it's not it's not a stretch to me if she was able to just kind of keep things moving along with him when she needed him financially, at least. um And childcare wise, you know, I think that she was able to manipulate him many times. And I think, you know, for them, cheating was part of the dynamic. Yeah.
00:11:30
Speaker
So obviously their relationship continued and she he went into the Navy. She was also employed. I saw her having, she kind of bopped around a lot. I think the most notable one that I saw was she worked for the Postal Service, which I think it's kind of funny because it's not the easiest job to get. They do look into you pretty intensely, but at the same time, you don't necessarily need to be the most competent person at the same time. And no disrespect to anyone in those positions, but it's one of those, they do look into you. And once we kind of go through everything, it's kind of ironic that you have an employer that looked that deep into her history for what she ended up doing.
00:12:16
Speaker
True. Although I guess at the time her rap sheet was clean. They weren't gonna see that she was um too fun at college, you know what I mean? They weren't gonna know about that. um But yeah, she worked at a post office, she worked at the post office. She also was working on and as an electrician at a motor home company and she was apparently very good at it. I think that Diane, I think she's very intelligent and I think that she um
00:12:48
Speaker
can be very charming when she wants to be and that combination tends to lend itself pretty well to a workplace, at least temporarily. um So I think that, yeah, I mean, she's probably fine with the post office. Yeah, I think that it's just at home where she had some struggles. Yeah, she definitely was described as being intense.
00:13:15
Speaker
with her children and very strict. And her, Steve kind of later on talked about how she just lacked an overall material material maternal like ah instinct for her children. And yes, I think that was probably the first red flag for me going through her story. Because there was one story that I noticed with her daughter,
00:13:45
Speaker
where her father caught her doing something she wasn't supposed to do, put her in a timeout. And her daughter's first reaction was if there was a gun in the house and that she wanted to kill herself because mommy said she was bad, which for a little kid is a really dramatic response to getting in trouble. Not the, I'm so sorry, I shouldn't do that. Just It's really sad that though that's her kid's mindset at a very early age. Yeah, it seems like she was not very good with children at all. She didn't understand how to relate to them. She didn't have a big maternal instinct, um which is ironic because she's extremely fertile, or at least she was extremely fertile.
00:14:39
Speaker
And she would, I mean, there were multiple interviews where she would talk about, you know, I just knew my cycle so well. And if I wanted to get pregnant, it would be so simple. And I would just decide like, I'm just going to get pregnant. um And I think she loved being pregnant. She just didn't really like the kids. What came afterwards? Right, which is why I mean, she did do something really wonderful at one point in her life, which she was a surrogate mother. um She carried a baby for another couple after she had Danny after because her and Steve ultimately did get divorced in 1980. And after that, Diane had seen a program on TV about surrogacy about people who could not have children. And she
00:15:30
Speaker
I mean, she made $10,000 doing it, which is a significant amount of money, especially in the 80s would be a significant amount of money. But it's also a big emotional and physical toll and a beautiful thing to do for someone. And I think that it really, I mean, maybe is what she should have only done as being a surrogate mother, because I think she probably excelled at that. She loved being pregnant. It was easy for her to get pregnant, stay pregnant.
00:15:58
Speaker
have healthy full term deliveries. So I mean, and also if you have that ability that to detach which she has shown with her already having her children. I feel like a lot of people with surrogacy it again, this is just my guess would be there's a lot of emotional attachment to being pregnant and delivering a baby particularly if it's not and ultimately to be your baby.
00:16:26
Speaker
And her ability to detach from that would have made her an amazing surrogate where she could have given, she could have made a ton of money and helped all of these families very easily if she wanted to. Yeah, I definitely agree. I think that she should have probably just stuck to that. It would have probably been better. um I think she was an amazing surrogate, probably. She did try a couple of other other times where it wasn't successful. So it was just the, you know, the one time that she was so much for her super affordability. Well, she was getting a little older, I guess. So maybe it was catching up to her. I mean, she had her first baby, she was only like 18. So everyone's fertile when they're 18. But
00:17:15
Speaker
um sarah So she's divorced from Steve. And of course she has many, many lovers because that's a ah big thing for Diane.
Obsession with Robert Knickerbocker
00:17:27
Speaker
But there's one guy who she is, I think the word would be obsessed. She's obsessed with them. Yeah. So that's Robert Knickerbocker, who she calls Nick. And she ended up getting a tattoo of Nick's name on her arm.
00:17:44
Speaker
Because that always goes well. I mean, 100% of the time, like that's a guarantee that this relationship is going to work out. It's true. Yeah, it is. That's that's it. um And she did not care that he had a wife, obviously, because to did that wife have a tattoo of his name? I don't think so. I know what a slacker. Exactly. So she clearly didn't care about him as much as Diane did.
00:18:09
Speaker
And she was very obsessed with him and she wanted him to leave his wife, which he wasn't going to do. And this is, so he's living in Arizona. um She's writing him letters. She's calling him. She's saying a lot of things, making a lot of promises about them being together. And he basically is trying to let her down easily.
00:18:37
Speaker
and saying that you're great, you're great, but I just don't wanna be a dad. I don't wanna play dad to your kids. like It's just not gonna work out because like you have children and I don't want children. um She tells him the kids will be no problem. He disagrees. She moves to Oregon and expects him to follow her, which he did not do. So she's just kinda left in Oregon with these three kids.
00:19:07
Speaker
that Nick does not want. Yeah. And I think this is, I would love to have like a full rundown by him where he was a completely transparent about their early stages of their relationship because every affair, particularly for married people, I feel like starts off with them saying, Oh, I love you. I'll leave my wife for you, blah, blah, blah. Take get it going and then they either realize that they messed up and like retract or they keep on with the charade. And I think
00:19:49
Speaker
for Robert, it would be curious if he ever kind of said things like that to her. Or in Diane fashion, she just decided that she wanted him and then continuously pursued it aggressively, assuming that eventually he'll just break down and cave and be with her. So I definitely think that he was a very willing participant initially.
00:20:15
Speaker
I think that you know they worked together. They had this kind of saucy workplace romance happening. He probably complained about his wife. He probably complained about all kinds of things. Told her how special she was. They probably had all of this crazy sex. And I'm sure everything was extremely fun and romantic. um But then she wanted him to leave his wife, which he wasn't going to do. She wanted him move in, play dad to her kids, which she was not going to do. So I think at that point, it kind of started to sour for him. And I think he was relieved when she moved and had absolutely no intentions of following her. Yeah. But she didn't leave him alone either. No, no, she was stalking him. Yeah, she was threatening to kill his wife. Yeah. I mean, she
00:21:11
Speaker
Yeah, she was very into him for sure. And was not planning to, although she has said in later years that she was not madly in love with him, that she just loved him, but she'd never been madly in love with anybody. Which looking at a lot of the things that she says after the fact, it is very manipulative, very convenient, very
00:21:40
Speaker
I don't want to put the word narcissistic on her quite yet, might later, sure but it seems that whenever something doesn't go her way, like Nick not following her organ, not giving it, not leaving his wife. Well, I don't truly love him that much then is like protecting any kind of feeling that she did have because God forbid it did happen. I bet her answer would have changed. I absolutely loved him.
00:22:10
Speaker
love of my life. Right. Exactly. I think it's like, um you know, it's a retelling. It's, it's saving her ego distancing language. Like he wasn't that big of a deal to me. Like I could have had anyone basically.
00:22:26
Speaker
thank you Which it makes sense with what ended up happening that her story would change like that. But I definitely think um It seems to me, by any definition, that she was madly in love with him. I think very unhealthily, bizarrely attached is how I would probably phrase it.
00:22:52
Speaker
So I think that Nick, none of this is Nick's fault, I don't think. I think that he's a bad husband, a bad person, not defending him, but I don't think the things that happened in this case are his fault. I think he just had sex with the wrong person. Yeah. Which is terrible to say because I agree. Bad husband, bad dude. But just bad judge of character is really where he went wrong. Terrible, terrible judgment calls were being made by him, absolutely.
00:23:25
Speaker
But I don't think he's like an evil criminal who masterminded any like, I think that he just was another idiot that slept with her. no Didn't care about which there were multiple, you know, extramarital affairs that she was participating in. It was not just him. But he was just her favorite at the time.
00:23:45
Speaker
um But yeah, she's doing the single mom thing. And yeah she's
00:23:53
Speaker
It kind of brings us up to 1983. Right.
The Night of the Shooting
00:23:58
Speaker
So May 19th, 1983. Diane, I'm just going to set the scene of what's happening. Yes. And just tell everything from Diane's perspective, I think is how I'm going to start it. So Diane, like many young single mothers with three little children does, she's driving at night in the middle of nowhere down a road she'd never been down before.
00:24:23
Speaker
um blasting hungry like a wolf by Duran Duran in her car. She's sightseeing even though it's past nine o'clock at night. So it's pitch blackout normal normal. So she's driving and there's this shaggy haired man in the road.
00:24:42
Speaker
and he is attempting to flag the car over, so obviously she pulls over, and this shaggy-haired stranger shoots the three children, Christy, Cheryl, and Danny, in the car, shoots Diane in the arm, Diane, in an act of heroism, thinking on her feet, pretends to throw her car keys into the bushes,
00:25:12
Speaker
And the shaggy haired stranger, like a golden retriever, runs after them, and runs away from her. So she jumps back in the car and she races to the hospital, pulls up to the hospital screaming, my children have been shot. I've been shot. She has a bandage on her arm, but who knows how that got there. The children are all just openly bleeding.
00:25:35
Speaker
Um, so she gets them into the hospital. They're all immediately treated. Diane has a very minor injury compared to the kids. Um, and she immediately is being questioned by police. The kids are being assessed and the kids are in critical condition. One of them, Cheryl passed away. She was DOA. She, um, it's very sad. She's only like seven years old.
00:26:05
Speaker
um Christy, the eight year old, the oldest child, she was eight at the time of the shooting. And she ended up losing so much blood that she hemorrhaged and had a stroke, which has left her with permanent disabilities. And then Danny, who's only three years old, was shot in his spine and ended up um with paralysis from the waist down. So it's pretty horrific injuries that happened. And of course, Cheryl is passed away. Yeah. Yeah. And in during all of this, Diane just has a grazed bullet surface level on her arm. And her three children are completely maimed. Yeah, their lives will never be the same, the ones that did survive. And absolutely.
Investigation and Evidence
00:27:02
Speaker
with this kind of story and scene that she was telling cop they started kind of looking at her a little as a person of interest because a lot of things just weren't adding up from their perspective and rightfully so because as a single female let's take the kids out of the car right now you're driving down a deserted road, I in a million years would never pull over to the side of the road, get out of my car to talk to a strange man on the side of the street. yeah I don't know any female in their right mind who would. And then adding your kids in the car. Yes. So Diane, because like I've said, she has given many, many, many, many interviews to the media.
00:28:02
Speaker
um She has said that she would pick pick up hitchhikers all the time, that she had no concept that ah men would do anything like this to her, that nobody had ever you know shot her or her kids before. So she had no concept that he was going to do that. He didn't warn her that he was going to shoot the kids or shoot her. And so she just could have had no idea that he was a threat to them. That's her explanation for it.
00:28:32
Speaker
which I will say in this time period hitchhiking was a lot more common yeah but I would argue at this time it was starting to be not as often because listening to like my grandparents stories hitchhiking was not a big deal at that point but my mom's time frame was that she was like there's no way she's like I wasn't gonna go like getting in some stranger's car so it's weird And I think our generation was like, absolutely not. You're not getting in my car. Unless I know you specifically. So I guess depending on how she was raised, I could see that, but also. But you wouldn't have to get out. Right. Why are you throwing your car keys out into the woods if you're in your car, like you should never have got out of the car to begin with.
00:29:29
Speaker
Yes. And I mean, Diane would later go on to do a full police reenactment that was filmed of this crime. And she's giggling through the whole thing. She's cracking jokes. She's, you know, she has her little sling on because it's pretty soon after the accident that she's doing this reenactment with the police.
00:29:49
Speaker
And, you know, she like bangs her arm at some point and says something that she stopped herself in the middle of talking. But the cops thought that she was going to say, Oh, man, that hurt just as bad as when I shot myself in the arm, basically. Which she did not say, but she does say a lot of weird, inappropriate things that she thinks are funny. She does a lot of smiling, a lot of giggling, a lot of, you know, eye rolls, stuff like that in the video.
00:30:18
Speaker
Which is just strange, I think her behavior is always gonna be the stuff that is the most damning for Diane. um Because sometimes there's evidence, which there is some physical evidence which we can talk about, but also just her behavior in the hospital, in the interviews, in the police interviews, it's nothing short of bizarre. She's extremely calm, she's extremely flippant,
00:30:46
Speaker
The first call she makes at the hospital is to Robert Knickerbocker, you know, to talk about their great love affair. um Not the children's father. Right. Not not not their grandparents. Not, you know, not not anybody, not the friend she was supposed to be, you know, supposedly had been visiting with prior to this incident, who would have you would think would be someone you would call before your married lover would be, oh my gosh, we just left your house. And you'll never believe what happened. Right. Yeah, I mean, anybody, pretty much anybody would make more sense to call.
00:31:29
Speaker
but yeah yeah So during their investigation they did start collecting evidence and forensics where that's all kind of I think what coupled with her behavior police really started to not believe her story.
00:31:48
Speaker
um their blood spatter there was nothing on the driver's side where if she was shot in the arm there should have been some kind of blood on that part of the car right she did not disclose to police that she owned a weapon which i have mixed feelings about because typically that's not something you just disclose to police it's not one of the first questions i've heard they typically ask in these situations, i unless there's a reason to. Um, they also could have just ran her name and it probably wouldn't come up. But she did own a 22 caliber handgun, um, that she had had for years. And the gunpowder residue also didn't make any sense when it came to her car.
00:32:45
Speaker
It just didn't line up with her version of events. And the blood spatter from the kids on the car, on the clothes, it the distances that she was supposed to be could not have been possible, essentially. She had to be extremely close to the children when these shots were fired for the blood spatter to make sense.
00:33:12
Speaker
um
00:33:15
Speaker
Yeah, and she did know how to shoot that gun because it was her gun and she had gone to shooting ranges and she should taken, you know, she knew she knew how to load it. She knew how to clean it. She knew how to do everything. Which for living in Oregon, like that's not super uncommon or Arizona like there are areas that it doesn't shock me that she may have also grown up with them, which again would just give her more comfortability around weapons.
00:33:44
Speaker
Um, but then you start having comments by Nick, for example, who was not, he's like, I absolutely think she would have killed my wife. Like she had this history of violence and you had people who already were like, well, I wouldn't shock me if that happened, which can't be good for your investigation. If you're trying to get away with something. Right. Um.
00:34:14
Speaker
I think one of the more damning um witnesses in this case, because it does ultimately go to trial, is someone who was driving behind Zion after the shooting. a There was a witness that was stuck behind her car for like 10 minutes, because she was only going about five miles per hour. The witness actually said that his car stopped registering his speed, like his speedometer was not working because they were going so slow. And they were unable to pass
00:34:51
Speaker
her car because there was no pass lane. So the car, as opposed to Diane's version of events where she raced to the hospital and sped there to get her children into the hospital as soon as possible, you know this these witnesses who had you know plenty of time to observe the car. They said that it was a red car that it had Arizona plates at the time of night. It was a very desolate area. So it really could not have been anyone else. And she was certainly going well, well, well under the speed limit, which is bizarre behavior. Right. And to play devil's advocate, if you
00:35:34
Speaker
recently just watched your children get shot, you yourself are shot, that is going to be excruciating pain both emotionally and physically.
00:35:49
Speaker
So, focusing would probably be really difficult, maybe? I don't know. That would make you drive a little bit slower. Sure. However,
00:36:02
Speaker
Why would you just call an ambulance at that point if you're having that much trouble rather than slowly, materially making your way? I mean, I guess ah she wouldn't have had it a phone. But they are like, she definitely would have drove by some kind of house or gas station or or even she could have flagged down the car that was behind her. Right. It's not like you just drive and drive and drive and go, bam, here's the hospital. There's things around it. That's true. If you're in that much of having so much trouble, you should have done something.
00:36:43
Speaker
and It didn't, nothing that I could see did this windows say that she was driving erratically. She was swerving. It seemed like there was an issue. It was just that she was going five miles an hour and wouldn't speed up. Right. Exactly.
00:37:02
Speaker
So things start to unravel for Diane.
Christy's Testimony and Conviction
00:37:10
Speaker
um And after her series of media interviews, she's ultimately arrested for murder and attempted murder and assault. And while this is happening, Christy has started to really recover physically and mentally, and she's regained the ability to speak.
00:37:37
Speaker
So something that I thought was really interesting, I don't know if you came across this, but Christy was seeing therapist, obviously, she was extremely traumatized. She was an eight-year-old little child who had been shot, who had a stroke, who was having this incredibly difficult recovery. She was seeing a therapist and the therapist would ask her, you know, what happened, who shot you, who shot your brother, sister, mom, you know, whatever. And
00:38:08
Speaker
Christy was unable to talk about it, unwilling to talk about it, so they started doing this method where Christy would write down the answer, seal it in an envelope, and burn it. So this went on for many sessions where the therapist would ask, you know, write down who did this to you, you know, who the perpetrator was, and if you're not ready to tell me, and that's okay, and we'll just burn it.
00:38:36
Speaker
So she started doing this and then eventually Chrissy felt comfortable enough with the therapist and felt strong enough in herself to show what she had written and what she had written was my mom.
00:38:52
Speaker
Which is just so heartbreaking because this is the same little girl that
00:39:05
Speaker
had been in the same house where her sister was concerned about getting in trouble and saying that she should kill herself because she got in trouble. And I can't imagine if that's what her experience was that she didn't have a similar one as well. And so you're dealing with the fear of what happened. You're dealing with physically recovering on and then just the understanding that your mom did this to you because she at that age you're still have faith in the world where the idea of your mother doing that I think probably no matter how bad her mom was was hard to admit and if there was any kind of abuse the fear of retaliation was probably there as well yeah I think there was a lot of fear
00:40:06
Speaker
There was a lot of grief. There was a lot of physical problems. Like this child had the world stacked up against her. And I think that it was nothing short of heroic that she was able to describe what happened and ultimately be a state's witness, a key witness. And I think that it's very impressive and she's very brave and I don't know how many kids could have coped in that situation. And I hope that she, I mean, I know that she had a lot of support and I just, I don't know if it could ever be enough. Yeah, I will say too, though, for someone of that age to have been a witness, like there are steps that you have to take from a court perspective. They're not just going to put an eight year old on the stand and hope for the best.
00:41:03
Speaker
um So there are processes so she had to be a very smart and confident little girl in order to do that even taking away the fact it was against her own mother. One thing that I couldn't figure out and I don't know if you have me found the answer was if she was living with who she was living with during this recovery because I think if she was living with mom that makes a huge difference on maybe she would have said it sooner. Because Diane wasn't arrested until nine months after the shooting. So I can't explain. um So she was like initially in the hospital um and could not leave. But there was a case that was open against Diane. And my understanding is that Christy and Danny were in foster care.
00:42:01
Speaker
um they the courts had not, they hadn't figured out entirely what had happened. And I know that Diane and Steve were both trying to get visitation. And Diane was not allowed to have visitation, but Steve was. And he was, he'd started with supervised visitation and had begun to get unsupervised visitation prior to the start of the trial, I believe.
00:42:26
Speaker
And um he ended up losing that and losing custody of the kids entirely, where they reverted back to just being in foster care, because he was sneaking the kids to see Diane. He was allowing them to see her. Because she was under investigation already. And she did not have custody of the kids during that time. And then Steve also did not end up with custody of the kids either. Or any business. That is true.
00:42:56
Speaker
Right. That is true. Yeah. That's why Steve doesn't have them now. I mean, I know there is no one now. But um because I always thought it was very strange that Steve wouldn't have just automatically gotten custody of them because that is what would typically happen in this kind of situation if the mother went to prison. But that's not what happened. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So Diane obviously was arrested, which I think we mod Um, and charged with one count of murder for her son and, oh, excuse me, her daughter and two counts of attempted murder and criminal assault against her daughters. Right. Which is a heavy charge. Absolutely. And she completely denied it. Um, they had a full trial.
00:43:55
Speaker
She was psychologically assessed. There were many diagnoses that were thrown around. I think one of the big ones is narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder. There have been reports of her being sociopath, psychopath, delusional, borderline personality disorder, um malignant, hysteria, psychopath.
00:44:25
Speaker
I think that there are many ways to describe her but she basically has no remorse. She has no empathy, she has no remorse, she has no ability to put herself in other people's shoes. I think her kids are just extensions of her and her opinion and she was very offended by the charges against her and I mean to this day adamantly denies any part in any of this but um i think she was a bad witness i think the jury really did not like her and she was sentenced to the strongest sentence they could possibly give her which i'm a little confused about like is it just that i should have looked this up but is it that oregon doesn't have the death penalty is that why she couldn't get it or is most states it's not extreme enough
00:45:21
Speaker
don't have the death penalty anymore um let's see you can find that out. Well interesting because she I was gonna say she did get guilty on all counts and yeah so the death penalty was part of Oregon's history but when you it only has executed two people since 1963 yeah Okay, there's probably all types of rules. Sometimes you have to commit multiple murders also. Yeah, so looking at current rules, it pretty much their heaviest sentence in reality is life in prison without parole. But she was actually sentenced to life in prison plus 50 years with the ah ability to be paroled. Right.
00:46:16
Speaker
which When it comes to a parole board, you need to accept responsibility for your part in the crime. You need to show how you have improved, how you're going to contribute to society and testify in front of a board of people. And then they make the determination if you are eligible for release or not. And Diane has come up multiple times for parole.
00:46:47
Speaker
And every single time she has been denied and been considered a dangerous offender, that she should never be allowed back out. And not once has she ever said that she is responsible. Her response every time is, I told you and I told everyone else that a man shot my kids and I have never wavered on that story.
00:47:16
Speaker
Yeah, so she loves to say that she doesn't change her story. But yeah, she does change her story all the time because right in the details. The details. Yes, she changes details. Oh, it's important. I forgot to mention when we we're talking about her trial is that she was extremely pregnant for her trial and her sentencing. Because after losing Cheryl to murder and her other children to foster care. She was very lonely and sad. So she, because she's so fertile, decided to just go out and get pregnant.
00:47:56
Speaker
and so she got pregnant and by the time of her sentencing she was past her due date and I mean not her sentencing her conviction she was nine months pregnant she went to jail and 10 days before she was sentenced she gave birth in prison and the child was immediately taken away from her and given up for adoption right so but Of course was going to happen. Yeah, I mean, what else was going to happen? I don't think she's ever said who the father was. I'm not sure if she even knows. I wasn't able to find that either. Yeah, i I looked and I wasn't able to find it. And I know that that child grew up and has made statements about trying to find her biological father.
00:48:44
Speaker
I don't I don't know if she ever has. We can talk about that in a minute. But I just I realized I didn't mention that. And it was very important because again, Diane, you know, is extremely fertile. And she I think thought that she would be more of a sympathetic defendant if she was extremely pregnant. And it's like who's going to send a pregnant woman to prison for the rest of her life. But I mean, it didn't work. I'm the jury judge. I completely agree with you because I think She definitely played on the, whoa me, ah my poor mom most like viewpoint with the jury that just didn't catch. And one thing that particularly with the parole board that I think is and important is the district attorney actually writes to the parole board whenever she goes up and reiterates that
00:49:41
Speaker
she has never demonstrated any kind of honesty regarding the circumstance of that has happened. And he writes in a way, assuming that she is guilty, which I kind of agree with, but she still adamantly says she's not. sure And he supports these allegations with small details that she has said throughout different interviews and testimonies and things like that.
00:50:11
Speaker
that contradict themselves. And I think one that I thought was interesting was for her assailants changed. So she had that bushy haired stranger from the beginning. And then in a different version, there were two assailants and they had ski masks on. And then someone else was a corrupted police officer who had pulled them over. And then another one was a drug dealer that just came out of nowhere.
00:50:38
Speaker
so It was always consistently someone else's fault, but whose fault it was changed. Yes. That is true. Cause I did watch an interview with her where she said that the, um, the shooter knew her and called her by name and that she knew who it was because there's also, that also was important because there were many points where she's claimed that she knew exactly who it was or.
00:51:06
Speaker
that there were leads pointing to the identity of the shooter, and implying that the police and the prosecutors weren't doing enough, and that you know she needed to take matters into her own hands, which is one of her justifications for why she broke out of prison.
Diane's Escape and Recapture
00:51:27
Speaker
Because in 1987, she scaled an 18-foot razor fence, she put a coat on the top of it, like she climbed up the thing, the fence, put her coat on the top, jumped off, hid in a parking lot, ran multiple blocks, and showed up at the front door of one of the other prisoners' husbands, and she stayed in his apartment with him for 10 days until she was apprehended.
00:52:02
Speaker
which caused an absolute uproar for her surviving victims and their families because by that time all of her children had been legally adopted and they were all them and their parents were terrified that Diane was out of prison because she's extremely dangerous and terrifying.
Adoption and Family Fear
00:52:28
Speaker
So I think one of the more heartwarming parts of this story is that the prosecutors in the case, one of the prosecutors and his wife, Fred Hugie, ended up adopting the two surviving children from the shooting, Kristine and Danny, which is really beautiful, honestly. I read one report that said that um
00:52:53
Speaker
that Fred went to see the kids in the hospital after the shooting and it was the first time he'd ever met them. He laid eyes on them and he said that he just knew instantly that they were his kids. Yeah. And I think that's beautiful. It really is. And it kind of, there will always be cases that just touch you differently I think of that line of work.
00:53:17
Speaker
And this was just, I guess, one of them in that they adopted children with very severe disabilities too. That they were not going, there was going to be some serious challenges that they were going to face mentally, physically, and as a family. And what a powerful couple to take that on out of a pure place of love and desire to help these kids. I think it's amazing.
00:53:48
Speaker
but i think it's really wonderful and they didn't have other kids right yeah so they became parents to children with horrible trauma physical mental i mean it was a very difficult situation and they they really really stepped up and they became parents to them and So they were raising the kids and when they found out that Diane had escaped from prison, I mean, they were terrified. And rightfully so, because not only from the case itself, but there is so much more evidence and information and data that goes into a case that either doesn't go to trial, doesn't get brought up, or doesn't
00:54:39
Speaker
make it to the media. So this couple knew every single detail that happened. And then being so acutely aware of what she's capable of to her children, I think just amplifies it. It's not like there were a third party that adopted these kids and found out it was a horrible crime. They know every single detail. Yeah. That's true.
00:55:08
Speaker
um That's also true of the baby that was adopted, um who became Rebecca. I mean, Diane named her Amy Elizabeth after herself, which is also insane. But on track, maybe the baby was adopted by a real family who renamed her, of course.
00:55:27
Speaker
and um they were not planning to to tell her about her mother. They thought it was going to be too traumatic and upsetting for her to hear that, you know, your biological mother is in prison for shooting your biological siblings. I mean, I think that that would be... I don't know how you would explain that to a ah child, um but they had to start telling people in that child's life about Diane when she escaped from prison because they were terrified that she was going to show up at the preschool, that she was going to find her when she was with her babysitters, like all kinds of, I mean, right I can't imagine a situation worse than that for for the adoptive parents, because I mean, they knew exactly who Diane was. And they knew that they were adopting
00:56:21
Speaker
the baby born to such a horrible person, but I think that they had some comfort that she was going to be serving life in prison. So, you know, we're, we're going to give her a whole different life over 100 miles away.
00:56:36
Speaker
she's not going to have to know her, you know, the other kids have been adopted into a loving family, and they knew all of the details. So they didn't think they would ever have to really deal with Diane. And then she's out. So then they had to start telling people, they still didn't tell Rebecca, but she, she found out um a couple years after Diane had been, had escaped from prison and gone back to prison, she kind of tricked a babysitter into like, Oh, I already kind of know, you know, and like, the babysitter ended up telling her, um which I think caused I mean,
00:57:14
Speaker
Rebecca has been through a lot and she really spiraled after finding out about Diane and she went through a lot of really difficult times where she abused drugs and had depression and she ended up um being quite promiscuous if we can use that term and having a child and giving it up for adoption and um she went through a
Rebecca's Discovery and Struggles
00:57:40
Speaker
lot of struggles. I think she's really turned her life around. I know she's also done a lot of media. I did watch her interview with Oprah. And I think mostly she just really regrets ever reaching out to Diane at all. And I think maybe things would have been different if Diane had not broken out of prison. But I mean, she'll stop at nothing to traumatize all of her kids.
00:58:05
Speaker
Yeah. I will say her escaping prison is a little impressive. It is not something that you hear very often, let alone successfully doing it yeah and being out for 10 days. It takes a lot of planning, a lot of execution. um There's not a doubt in my mind that she had help that never was publicized internally because the chance of you scaling an 18 foot razor wire fence without any assistance is slim to none so i think she probably put on that charm that she's so well known for and got some help from some guards that were never publicized uh in my opinion but she did agree get transferred to another state because of that and because of the fear of the families where she ended up getting moved to new jersey and very very far away from
00:59:04
Speaker
any of these kids, because if Dr. Richie did ever escape again, she couldn't get to them.
00:59:15
Speaker
right which Fred the prosecutor really went to bat for. um After she'd been captured, he just said that it was it was too dangerous for the children for her to remain in the state. So they sent her as far away as possible to the prison that is now called Edna Mahan in New Jersey, which is like the maximum security women's prison here. um I mean, she also walked around in prisons.
00:59:44
Speaker
Yeah, she bumped around. Because she ended up when... Right. She's in California now, I think, right? Yep. She went to two different ones in California. She still is in California, as far as I'm aware, ah and just living out her sentence where ah continuing her her denial. Every time she goes up for board, she says the same thing. and they deny it because it yeah which is shocking to me that she doesn't challenge it anymore it doesn't change her tactic because she is a very smart person to a degree and she knows how to read a room and anyone who goes to prison who abuses children tend to have a harder time in prison so i can't imagine her state is very comfortable
01:00:37
Speaker
It's surprising me that she hasn't manipulated her way
Diane's Continued Denial
01:00:42
Speaker
out. Why wouldn't you just say it to get out? I don't know. That's the one thing that does shock me with her, that she maintains this innocence. So I watched her Oprah interview that she did in 1987.
01:00:58
Speaker
I watched that this week. And then I also, her parole hearing from 2020 is on YouTube. The full thing is on YouTube, just the audio. And I listen to most of it. And it is absolutely maddening. It is so frustrating to listen to her talk. She talks in complete circles. Nothing she says makes any sense. She's trying to make herself seem very good, but she's just lying. So it's...
01:01:31
Speaker
it would she would be very manipulative if you could not fact check her. And I think that she thinks she's much smarter than the parole board. But she's underestimating them. And I mean, she filed for an appeal of the parole decision that she got in 2020, which was a big no, because she's always been denied for parole. And she I mean, during the she was blaming COVID for why she doesn't do more group therapy and why she hasn't made improvements during her stay in prison, and that was during 2020. She was saying that it was because of COVID. You have been in prison for over 30 years at that point. That doesn't explain all of the time before this that you haven't been making improvements. She did get an associate's degree in prison, but she's done very little therapy, work on herself. She is not an asset to the prison community in any way.
01:02:28
Speaker
She has had a lot of conflict. She's had a lot of issues. She has been in, um what do they call it, SEG, where you're put away. She's been in isolation many times, fights with inmates, sexual behavior, a lot of different things. She's very unpopular in prison. And I think that she is just, she's she's very smart. And she's very manipulative.
01:02:57
Speaker
But if you have all of the information, it's much harder to be manipulated by her. And I think that the Pearl Board knows that she's full of shit, and it's going to look at all the notes from previous years. Also at this point, I know that she can change her story, but she should have changed it 35 years ago, I agree. I mean, she'd probably already be out if she had just taken accountability, but she cannot admit to anyone that she has done this.
01:03:27
Speaker
And some people really believe her. There is a big, not a big, but there is a faction of people on the internet and in real life that supported her, that thought that she was just maligned for being a slut, essentially, that she was just looked at as a bad mother and a promiscuous woman. And that's why she was convicted, because a lot of the evidence is circumstantial, essentially.
01:03:53
Speaker
um I don't agree with that, but I know like her parents, for example, who she accused of abusing her and then took that up took that back, supported her until their deaths. Her father passed away in 2017, and he was one of her biggest advocates up until that point, maintaining her innocence, fighting for her to be able to get out on appeal, helping her financially.
01:04:20
Speaker
It's hard for me to believe, but I think some people are taken in by her. And I think if you had a lot less information, it would be easy because she does when she talks, it sounds like she knows what she's saying. It sounds she speaks with a lot of conviction and a lot of arrogance. And she has that or that that presentation of a very kind woman. Like if you just see a picture of her, your brain doesn't go too crazy or your brain doesn't go to a murderer. She looks very put together. She presents very well and I think she has the ability to show different people different versions of herself to get them to have sympathy for her in that circumstance. So it's that same thing of
01:05:14
Speaker
her parents probably saw a certain side of her and she argued it for that exact reason. Absolutely. Um, speaking of what she looks like, does she remind you of anyone? Just like her face? ah Her face reminds me of a couple people and I can't honestly, she looks like that. What is it? Um, some actress that I'm drawing a blank on.
01:05:45
Speaker
Like Brady Bunch vibes.
01:05:52
Speaker
But I have a feeling you're alluding to another person we talked about. No, not yet. Someone we will talk about. To me, and to a lot of people on the internet, um she looks like Janelle Evans from Teen Mom. I feel like they have the same face.
01:06:10
Speaker
Yeah. Well, Janelle's had a lot of work done also. I think if Diane had not been in prison, she probably would have also gotten her chin corrected. You know, there's things that Diane, that I think Janelle actually looks pretty good now. But I think like in the early days, the eyebrows, the eyes, the chin, like everything to me just screams Janelle. And I I think that's really all I have to say about Diane Downs. Unless you have more to add, I think we could probably just wrap up here. And we'll catch everybody next week on the Mothers of All Crime. Have a good night.