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Gwen Shamblin Lara (The Way Down)
250 Plays7 months ago
This week on the Mothers of All Crime Podcast we are weighing down with the late Gwen Shamblin Lara. Gwen was many things- a dietician, a mother, a Christian, a pastor, a millionaire, a wife, an ex-wife, etc. She came to public attention while preaching her Christian diet plan. There are many controversial questions surrounding this tiny lady with humongous hair. Was Gwen a cult leader? Does the weigh down method promote eating disorders? Did Remnant support child abuse and murder? Why was Gwen allowed to get divorced while her followers were forced to stay in terrible unions? Was there a larger message behind the plane crash? How is her daughter coping in the wake of so much tragedy and loss?
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May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
Listener discretion is advised.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Mothers of All Crime'
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Mothers of All Crime. This is a podcast where we deep dive into mothers involved in infamous crimes and scandals. I'm Monica and this is Crystal.
Who is Gwendolyn Henley Shamblin Lara?
00:00:46
Speaker
Our mother this week is Gwendolyn Henley Shamblin Lara. Ugh, what a mouthful. I know. You might know her as Gwen Shamblin. She is a religious leader, I guess? Is that how you describe her? I think that's the easiest classification. It's definitely the one that she prefers. She identified a lot as a pastor and a leader of her church and she evolved a lot over time. So she started as just a
00:01:23
Speaker
Christian woman, very traditional, very old school, and kind of developed into one of the, in my opinion, main female church leaders in the country, where in the Christian-based faith, ah these extreme religions, you don't typically see women at the pulpit. They're normally in some kind of supporting role.
00:01:46
Speaker
And she created a church and a foundation and what some call a cult and the leader herself while still presenting the idea of being subservient to a man, which is an interesting kind of balance that she portrayed herself in.
Faith-Based Weight Loss Program
00:02:06
Speaker
Yeah, Gwen was definitely like a evangelical Christian and was very passionate about the religion. She was also a boss and a leader, and she was completely in control of her organization, which she sort of started as a faith-based weight loss program. It definitely was that over the years, but it became a lot of things.
00:02:29
Speaker
um She wrote books and she ran the church and she made a lot of money, but she definitely also preached being submissive to your husband and to your church and to your God and that women's places were beside their husbands behind them. It's it's a kind of a hypocritical hypocritical way to present, but. Absolutely. So I would argue that Gwen kind of came into the spotlight through her books that you mentioned when she became an author. Her history is she started off in the Church of Christ, which is women are very secondary in that world. There's the level ones, the man level two is the women. They are to be seen and not spoken.
00:03:19
Speaker
So, she really identified with Christ and really loved this journey of Him, but also was very focused on diet and her her looks, I would say. um So, she went to school and got degrees in dietetics, dietrics.
00:03:39
Speaker
dietitian. She's a dietitian, but I don't know the other form of that word. That you're getting a master's in food and nutrition. Yeah, some kind of technical term for it. But once she had that, she became a registered dietitian and then promoted this like mindset.
00:04:00
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that of all the female cult leaders, if we want to call her that, um I think of all the ones that we've been talking about so far, she's the one that has the most education to back up her yes the things that she's preaching. like she She's not just completely making everything up.
00:04:20
Speaker
she really did study theology, she really did study weight loss science, she really did like, she did know those things, and she was very informed on these topics. I don't know that I necessarily agree with them, but she really could speak intelligently on Christianity, the Bible, weight loss, food, look, like those things she was basically an expert at.
00:04:47
Speaker
You know, that's a really great point and something that I kind of hadn't really thought about because there's always been that authority that speakers have had in strong religious groups or high control groups, cults, where they just, they have that charismatic nature of them, where if you speak confidently, they're just like, yeah, I just know it because I don't know, the higher power told me. And she had both that.
00:05:15
Speaker
And well, according to this research, so she could really talk her way into either conversation. And I think that's a really great point to bring her authority at such a high level because she got a lot of traction, particularly with way down basics and her way down workshops, which they actually ended up doing a documentary series on, it's on a bunch of platforms now.
00:05:39
Speaker
But really focusing on her message was by following God and submitting to Christ, you can lose weight. And there's hundreds of testimonies of these people coming up and I lost 20 pounds, I lost 50 pounds, I lost 150 pounds. And on the surface, it seems like a really great option if you are a religious based person and you're struggling with your weight or even if you're not religious and you're like hey I've tried all these other things why not try this like from the surface it seems like a great option and then you dive in and you go hmm maybe not
00:06:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, she acted like she invented a brand new diet that had never been tried before. um And my understanding of what it was, was if that you could eat whatever you wanted, there are no foods that are bad, Jesus thinks all foods are clean, but you should wait until you have the physical sensation of hunger, your stomach should growl before you eat.
00:06:48
Speaker
And then as soon as you become full, you should stop eating. And if you still want to eat, even when you're not hungry, you're supposed to just turn your attention to God. It's basically like intuitive eating.
00:07:04
Speaker
Yeah, intuitive eating, fasting, there's an aspect of keto in there. ah She just kind of merged it all together and then put as a distraction rather than do something else was pray or go to church or call someone in your group.
00:07:22
Speaker
And she got into some hot water when she started comparing hunger and its effectiveness to things like the Holocaust. And I think that's when she started. She got too confident and she may have been saying things like that in more of a private closed settings, but she started making these comments publicly during interviews and.
00:07:45
Speaker
It rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, rightfully so, because you have her church being based in
00:07:55
Speaker
nash not in Nashville, it's a little outside of Nashville in Brentwood, ah Tennessee, which is a very wealthy county. It's predominantly upper class. So comparing people in those lifestyles where they're making a choice not to eat and Holocaust victims who are in concentration camps not given an opportunity to eat, I think are really horrible comparisons.
00:08:24
Speaker
It's a disgusting comparison. I mean, she was definitely just saying that for shock value. What she was trying to say is, if you starve someone, they will lose weight. Which, duh. Yeah, that's true. No one's gonna actually argue that. But that's I mean, acting like what you're doing is in inviting these people to live a concentration camp style lifestyle, like that's their diet is insane. So it's not a good comparison for her to make.
00:09:00
Speaker
I understand what she's trying to say, but I agree it's very offensive.
Founding of Remnant Fellowship Church
00:09:04
Speaker
and yeah I think that she rubbed a lot of Christians the wrong way with stuff she would say too, um especially when it came to the Holy Trinity, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Gwen did not like that concept and totally rejected it.
00:09:20
Speaker
and that's extremely important to most Christian faiths. So it kind of made her an outsider in an additional way. Not only is she a woman, but she's pushing back on a very core belief. So I think that she was very popular in her circles, but there were definitely people that were not fans and did not react well.
00:09:45
Speaker
Absolutely and I think when it comes to the Holy Trinity that really became prominent when she started her own church. So she started the Weigh Down workshops prior to and then in 99 she kind of found in Remnant Fellowship Church.
00:10:06
Speaker
And in one of those core beliefs was not believing in the Holy Trinity, like you mentioned. And being a non-denominational Christian church, there were a lot of, a lot of people that originally went with her and then left. So from the documentary, their estimation of members was about 2000. I'd be very curious how many went originally with her. And then after she made this announcement, decided to leave.
00:10:35
Speaker
I think she definitely lost some followers.
00:10:39
Speaker
and But hard to track. Yeah, absolutely. Because it it was based in Franklin, Tennessee, but it definitely became a national kind of movement. So there were people who would fly in to annual events or attend online or you could do it remotely.
00:10:59
Speaker
And then she also purchased a Brentwood property called Ashlon Plantation, which was kind of like their over the top event space and all the weddings were there, the events, which were, it's a gorgeous property for anybody who hasn't looked it up. I highly recommend it. But there's just something about these videos that you see affiliated with it, which are a little cringy because it just looks Everybody looks the same, yeah first of all. And second of all, it just looks so fake. Like there's not, people look happy, but is it happy? Like I know I'm on camera or genuine, like it just doesn't sit well with me.
00:11:45
Speaker
It's very cringy. It's kind of creepy, but also Gwen looks different than everyone else. I feel like I don't know if this is the right time to bring it up, but there's one big thing that everyone notices about Gwen and it's her hair because in every video it stands out to me so much. And over the years, it's really in the Way Down, the documentary series, which I watched on Max, her hair evolves with this church. Like when she was doing the Way Down workshops to when she started Remnant to the whole progression, her hair gets taller and taller and taller. And I've seen different theories about why that is. Like some people thought that because she was so thin that maybe she's had hair loss and it's just wigs or extensions, but
00:12:33
Speaker
I'm not sure. I mean, some people are also would say that she's just trying to like, look youthful and it's like an overcompensation. But I don't think that really makes you look youthful. So I'm not sure it's like the most extreme side part poof. But in every video just smacked me in the eyes.
00:12:50
Speaker
Yeah, um it definitely grows as her power grows, I do think. Because if you look at her in her early years when this all started, it was a very normal haircut. She looked like a traditional housewife. And then I don't know who it was in the documentary, but they described her current look as like a strung out hooker, but which I thought was very funny. And I couldn't unsee it after they said it.
00:13:19
Speaker
ah But I think it's just the very intense eyeliner that she wears, the huge hair, a little bit of a promiscuous risque clothing for what she's promoting. It doesn't really match what she tells other people to wear. So I think that's oh where that thought went. trump
00:13:40
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, I think that, I mean, Gwen wears a lot, a lot of makeup, which I'm not criticizing, but it doesn't always look very good. So I am criticizing that. And she also would put corn cornstarch on her face, which made it look whiter and was supposed to make her look younger. But I don't think that it did. It's just in some of the videos, you can tell that her face is extremely white compared to her body. And it just looks strange. But I mean, Gwen is nothing Yeah, oh yeah, exactly. But she's said he's extremely hypocritical.
00:14:16
Speaker
What I don't understand is if she's trying to be youthful, she's worth millions of dollars. Go get Botox then. like Go get a facelift. I don't understand this like around the way option. ah She was. it was not doing she wasn't She needs a better injector. For sure. I don't think it looked great, but I think often it doesn't. um Especially when someone's extremely thin, sometimes fillers, Botox, plastic surgery, there's limits on what you can do at a certain body weight. I also would not be shocked if she was getting lipo or things like that because she had to maintain her extreme thinness. It was ah the pillar of everything.
00:15:03
Speaker
yeah and I think that's one of the reasons. so We haven't talked about her husband at all. her Which
Marriage, Divorce, and Joe Lara
00:15:10
Speaker
one? Her first husband. yeah Her first husband, where she got the name Shamblin, David Shamblin, who she had two children with, Elizabeth and Michael. um so she mean She was married to him for a very long time, I think from 1978 to 2018.
00:15:27
Speaker
um and He was not involved in Remnant. He was very at home very not involved, but he was a very educated person and he was a business minded person. So Gwen was raking in the cash and I think he was just kind of letting her do her thing. But at some of her in some of her meetings, especially in the way down, she would talk about how he isn't very supportive and how he struggles with his weight.
00:15:59
Speaker
And he was kind of kept out of the spotlight a lot because he would fluctuate it with his weight, and he didn't do the Weigh Down program. And I think that's one of the reasons they separated.
00:16:14
Speaker
Although I think there's definitely a bigger one. Yeah, no, I agree. David was very independently successful, too. So I don't want it to be this idea that she was the only one making money. He was very successful on his own, which gave her the opportunity to kind of.
00:16:32
Speaker
make this church. And she did the same thing with her son. So much like her husband at the time, his weight would fluctuate. And when he was, quote, the it right image, he would be shown at church, he would participate with things. But if he went a little bit over, like weight typically does fluctuate depending on a bunch of things, so she would push him into the.
00:16:57
Speaker
kind of corner. And her daughter was honestly like a little replica of her. They looked very similar. They're built very similar. She was very thin, very followed all the rules that were in place for her family. And David definitely loved her from my opinion. I found nothing that he wanted to separate but I think it got to a point where he didn't necessarily agree with what she was doing but it was she was happy and that's all that mattered to him but he no longer fit the image that she wanted and she found someone else who did and who would step into the light with her and make it
00:17:43
Speaker
make the things that she was preaching correct. The beautiful couple in wait, successful, like it was the image that she had been describing this whole time. And that's when Joe Lara, I think, kind of got introduced to her life.
00:18:01
Speaker
Yes. I think she met Joe Lara and saw him as all the things that her husband that she'd been with for over 20 years and raised two children with was not, um which is not a criticism of David, but no one's going to be perfect compared to a new, fun, exciting thing where you're having an affair, essentially.
00:18:22
Speaker
yeah and The reason I was calling Gwen a hypocrite is because in Remnant, people would go to Gwen and ask for advice and ask for permission to get divorced. And she would tell them they had to work it out and that it's not Christian to get divorced. And when she wanted to get divorced, she just was like, Oh, that's, that's different. This is totally different. Yes, and only we became conveniently allowed.
00:18:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, she got married within months also, like really fast. It was yeah clearly why they got divorced. Oh, 100%. It was already, I think, planned. That was the intention before the divorce was even filed, in my opinion. ah But I got to give it to Joe Lara. He saw an opportunity and he latched on.
00:19:13
Speaker
so A little of background on Joe, he is an actor and don't get me wrong, he's a decent looking guy. He played Tarzan in Manhattan in the 80s and 90s and he's a good looking dude. I don't, I get it. He was shiny and new and attractive.
00:19:37
Speaker
He wrote music, he played songs, he was different, he was telling her everything she wanted to hear. He was very much gassing her up and was a yes man, but he also didn't really have a way to financially support himself. right So he had a lot of motivations for being with this extremely wealthy person.
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah, from people in Joe's life, they kind of talked about he would latch on to a wealthy woman throughout his life and would just hop from one to the other until he finally landed on Gwen and got married.
00:20:15
Speaker
and as an actor, I think he kind of utilized that ability to memorize and regurgitate information. And that's when you listen to the him at the pulpit and him presenting videos and stuff with or without Gwen, he was able to really read her versus I guess is a good way to put it in his own words and be very convincing about it. So I don't even know if there was a true love there or if he was just kind of manipulating the situation because he could. You know what I mean? Yeah, it would be hard to say but I definitely think that he was opportunistic and it was part of his pattern.
00:21:02
Speaker
doesn't mean that he didn't love her at all. But I just don't think that he had pure motivations. I think that there was definitely a lot of financial motivations, but also status. And I think he really enjoyed his rise to prominence. He is someone that was seeking fame that was not very successful. I mean, he had moments, but it's not like he had this enduring, incredible acting career.
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah, like he would be like a hit guy for a couple years and then disappear for like a while. So other than those big... I don't think he really wanted to work. Oh yeah, I completely agree. So the two of them got married, obviously, and she made her name even longer. Very elaborate. Right. Oh my goodness. I need people to look up pictures of this.
00:21:52
Speaker
Her dress was, I mean, I don't even know if she could have walked through a door. Like, her dress was so poofy. Her hair was so tall. They looked insane. It was a huge event. And a lot of people in the church kind of had mixed feelings about their leader getting divorced and having this giant wedding a couple months later. um But on the whole, it seems like everybody was kind of celebrating and Jo was embraced as part of the leadership. It feels like they didn't have a choice because a lot of it. I saw a lot of things online when I did a quick Google that they didn't like Joe, but they knew better than to question Gwen. Because if you questioned her, there were ah indirect consequences and they kind of had to embrace Joe. So they put on that shiny happy face and went, oh, my God, yeah, he's great.
00:22:53
Speaker
We're happy she's happy. Except for those people in those marriages being like, I have a lot of abuse happening and you told me to stick it out, but you just want a shiny new toy so you can get divorced. So i I think those people were, yeah it was a reason a lot of people left again.
00:23:18
Speaker
Yes, I think so. I think that makes sense. And I ah can only imagine how upsetting that would be if you were hanging on to your marriage by your teeth, because you thought that that it was your only way to get into heaven. And then the person that told you that in the first place doesn't have to obey those same rules. But it's also not that surprising.
00:23:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think you kind of do whatever she wanted. Right. I think historically anyone who has that kind of power in, I'm going to call it a cult for a couple of things we're about to start talking about. Sure. There is no questioning. It's when it's convenient, the leadership is going to make whatever they want part of doctrine. It just is what it is.
00:24:05
Speaker
ah So one thing that I think that starts leading her into abuse territory is the Georgia
Extreme Practices and Controversies
00:24:11
Speaker
vs. Smith case, where there were a couple that actually, their child was murdered, their eight-year-old son Joseph, due to discipline and that was encouraged by the church and Gwen,
00:24:32
Speaker
And it came to light during their trial that corporal punishment and these extreme uses of hitting them with a glow stick or coat hanger or switch was taught, instructed, and expected of members to children of all ages, not just older children. Like if they could cry, this was expected to be done as a parent.
00:25:04
Speaker
Yes. And I think that physical discipline and corporal punishment is one of those issues that people feel very strongly about. And it's hard to make blanket statements, not something that I'm necessarily a fan in, but a fan of. But I think even for people who believe in spanking or sometimes using physical discipline,
00:25:29
Speaker
they would look at this and think that this is extreme. I mean, other members of leadership were beating kids that are not their kids, but Joseph was getting it at church and also at home, and his parents lied about the circumstances that she he got injured in, and it was obviously uncovered, but he basically had been abused over his lifetime, but then also had extreme abuse for a day and passed away, and the church completely had their backs the whole time. They still do.
00:26:09
Speaker
They paid for all their attorneys, the, uh, fail any, cause they did end up being found guilty. And then the church paid for their next appeals and their continuance, because if they go down that road, the church is going to start to get exposed. So they have to protect the members in order to protect themselves.
00:26:39
Speaker
That's definitely what they thought. I think they probably could have let these people look like crazy people on their own, but I think that they thought it would all be connected to them. um The church was not charged any of this. there were There were accusations of the church's involvement, but I think some of that was because of how much they were helping to defend this family.
00:27:03
Speaker
I think that maybe if they had not done that, it would have involved them less, but they were extremely involved. And even after these people were sentenced to life in prison, they were running prison ministries with the remnants' support.
00:27:18
Speaker
Right. in and it definitely They brought the church in and I think that the prosecutors would have done more with the church if there was more evidence to do so. The main thing that I think the church started feeling threatened on was because Gwen was asked about this couple.
00:27:34
Speaker
And there was a recording that between the Smiths and Gwen where Sonya the mother basically was describing a weekend of abuse to her eight-year-old where she took everything out of his room except a Bible and locked him in there for three or four days.
00:27:55
Speaker
And then he came out, quote, subservient. And Gwen's response to that was praise be to God. He's learning to be disciplined. He's learning to listen. He's learning to submit.
00:28:09
Speaker
Not, I can't believe you locked your child in a bedroom with nothing for four days, but a positive reinforcement to that parent and that behavior. And I think that was when they started looking at the church and the church went, oh, we have to protect Gwen.
00:28:31
Speaker
So disgusting.
00:28:34
Speaker
yeah um i I still think that the church would defend them to this point and say that they didn't do anything wrong. yeah like agree and I feel like his death is like proof that they did but they also had a child die in their home a couple of months before Joseph. They had a child who died from SIDS which as we've talked about is not a real diagnosis and it's just a label that's used when there is no other clear explanation but it makes me wonder and I don't want to
00:29:12
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. i's I did read one report that the investigators wanted to say it was pneumonia due to neglect, but the coroner just couldn't couldn't defiantly be like, yes, absolutely. So end up having to make it SIDS. And that's what kind of closed down that investigation. that Because if there's two in the home and it's both abuse, I think that would have gave them the leverage to dig. But with one being c SIDS and one being abuse, it's harder to argue and put resources towards when it's a theory.
00:29:49
Speaker
you know But definitely, I just think it's suspicious. Oh, 100%. Definitely atypical, you know, and it's, I don't know for a baby to have pneumonia.
00:30:05
Speaker
you would think there would be hospital visits and things like that. i I think that, I mean, I guess you could have very rapidly developing pneumonia, but it tends to be something that you're sick with for a while. And not getting medical attention for a child who's sick is a type of neglect. So I don't know. I don't know either.
00:30:28
Speaker
i there was a There was a few cases of c SIDS that were discussed within Remnant and one of the big ones was Gwen's daughter, Elizabeth, one of her children died from it was ah deemed c SIDS and it probably was but something that was interesting about that to me was that you weren't really allowed to grieve in Remnant. You just kind of had to act like everything was fine because everything that happens to you is God's will. It's one of those kind of belief systems. So you're not really supposed to mourn the dead. You're like allowed to just you're supposed to just immediately move on is what it seemed like to me, which I guess maybe would serve Elizabeth
00:31:14
Speaker
Yeah, I interpreted that very much as it was because it was Elizabeth that they weren't allowed to grieve because she was the member of the leaders family. And because she was a member of the Lolita family, there's no way that God would ever punish her in that way because she is higher and more godly than other members. I think if it happened to just a lower entry person who just a part of the congregation,
00:31:45
Speaker
Maybe they would have been able to identify it and then been told well, what did you do to? Angry God that this was how he reacted. I think it because it was Elizabeth You couldn't allow people to have the idea that they weren't perfect Yes,
00:32:07
Speaker
I mean If that's the case, there're very unlucky family yeah they're a very God has not not smiled smiled down upon them. no They did have a lot of financial success, but other things lacking.
00:32:23
Speaker
Yeah, foreshadow. But I think that also could be true talking about just like Gwen's husband struggling with his weight and Michael struggling with his weight, substance abuse, porn, infidelities, yeah a lot of different issues. All of these Elizabeth's child dying, I think all of those things Gwen felt reflected poorly on her and her the image that she was trying to project, whereas if you do all the right things, then all the right things will happen for you.
00:32:52
Speaker
and And she did her best to bury anything that didn't align. okay Yeah, absolutely. So one other that I think, in addition to those two, that really pushes that cult mindset is, I guess if this one's kind of two-part, but she really focused a lot of her preaching from the book of Revelation, which is the final day's book, kind of. And you see the book of Revelation come up a lot in these extremist and high control groups. they're very It's a book that's a lot darker than a lot of the other testimonies and parts of the Bible, which I think is, again,
00:33:47
Speaker
controlling. This connects a lot with defining the Trinity and denying, excuse me, the Trinity and keeping her members within each other. So outsiders are bad and you can't marry outside the church so they would recruit members and in the documentary series that is a storyline of one of these families that their daughter was recruited in And the only way she could marry her boyfriend and quote the love of her life was to convert and be part of this church and then distance herself from her family who are not members because they are bad influence. And anybody who leaves then gets ostracized. You don't hear from anybody. They talk bad about you. They spread rumors. You lose family.
00:34:40
Speaker
Another way that we see in a lot of c Colton groups, only the people in the church are the chosen one. It's the one true church and anybody else is going to bring you to hell and bring s sin into your life.
00:34:56
Speaker
So I don't want to act like I don't have any sympathy or empathy for those parents because we're talking about Delaney, right? The the girl that married into Remnant. So her parents to me, I do feel for them because it would be terrible to have your child marry into a cult, like with people whose religious beliefs are just totally foreign to you. But It does seem like their daughter chose that willingly and always had other options. And maybe she was brainwashed, I guess, but she was an adult. And she was making a teenager. She started as a teenager though. She started in high school. In high school, but she got married as an adult, a young adult. Like, I think she was 19. She was very young. I'm not saying that that was a good decision on her part.
00:35:51
Speaker
But I feel like they were acting like Remnant kidnapped her, where she just was actually probably making a bad decision about who to marry because she was young and immature, which are both problems, but they are different problems. And I think I would also probably fixate on it if I was her parent, the cult of it all, but that's not actually the main problem.
00:36:14
Speaker
The main problem is that your teenage daughter, instead of like valuing education or any of the opportunities that you can provide for her, is willingly submitting to this cult-like thinking and wants to get married as soon as possible. And that's a bigger problem to me than Remnant encouraging it. Yeah, I see that perspective for sure. i think in their circumstance, the way I interpret it is that the controlling aspect of Remnant where she had to go to church multiple times a week or there was repercussions. She wasn't allowed to quote define her relationship unless she was part of the church. She couldn't communicate with her parents about certain things. And once she got married, there was a distance there that kind of was created where it's us versus them mentality.
00:37:12
Speaker
And I don't know if it's just with a bad, they already had a bad taste on it and then it just kind of amplified for them. Because if you're in it and you see people ah who have left and they're also telling you all these negative things, I think it just feeds that idea.
00:37:30
Speaker
But I also see your point of like, at the end of the day, she technically was a legal adult at the time making this decision, and there's nothing you can do about it. Like she's 18, she's allowed to make her own choices, just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean that they're wrong for her, if they're wrong for you. it's it's very To me, it's very, very different to be brought up since very early childhood in a faith, in a high control religious environment, because that limits your options and your choices. She had the opposite experience of growing up in a more secular world and then choosing to convert.
00:38:18
Speaker
Well, she did it for the right reasons or not. I think a lot of people convert for marriage. I don't maybe agree with it, but I do think it's a very common practice. And I'm not going to fault anybody for following their heart if they feel like that's what they should do. I think maybe her and her parents have other issues. And I think that it's very easy to... I'm not trying to defend Remnant. I feel like I'm doing that. But I just feel like they... can't deal with the fact that their daughter may not want to have a very close relationship with them. And maybe it's because of this guy, maybe it's because of his church, but I feel like she was just pulling away. And it was kind of a stretch to even include her in the documentary, in my opinion. But I know why they did, obviously. The dates are significant. Yes, I think the dates are significant. But I think otherwise it wouldn't have really been
00:39:09
Speaker
But I think the reasoning too was to show the other side on how they brought people in from one perspective and then distance them because there's a lot of other people in the documentary who were in at the beginning and kind of went with the church as it grew and then left and were ostracized. So I think they wanted to show like both avenues of it. I think they may have been able to pick a better example of that. But I think like you said, the dates really align for her wedding, which was
00:39:41
Speaker
The dates are extremely significant. Yes, May of 21. Yeah, I have the exact date. It's May 29, 2021. Something else interesting, though, before we talk about that, is that The Way Down, which is a very popular docu-series about Gwen Chamblin, about The Remnant, it aired in two different
The Plane Crash and Its Aftermath
00:40:03
Speaker
sections. It aired, there was a three ah three episodes released in September of 2021.
00:40:09
Speaker
and two more episodes were released in April of 2022. All of the ones, the first three were filmed prior to May 29th, and the second two were edited together and new things were filmed to be released because of a plane crash that happened on Delaney's wedding day, which was...
00:40:33
Speaker
um a huge, huge deal for Remnant and for Gwen Shamblin's family because seven people were killed on that fight, which I just had all their names, but it was
00:40:51
Speaker
Yeah, so Gwen Shamblin was on the plane, her husband Joe Lara was flying the plane, and all of the reports that I have read and in the documentary said that the pilot became disoriented, essentially. So Joe became disoriented while he was piloting a small plane on the way to Palm Beach, Florida, which is a lovely place. um He does have a pilot license. So it was the two of them.
00:41:18
Speaker
He did, he did. yeah But his the person that was teaching him how to fly did not think he was ready for flight into New York or l LA or places with high traffic. I'm not sure if Palm Beach would be considered high traffic. It's a very small airport. During that time of year maybe?
00:41:37
Speaker
but you know he definitely wasn't confident in his abilities. I think that was kind of an like right c y a for picking New York, but I don't think he was confident in general for him. Right. I think it's he knew how to fly, but he was very reliant on instruments, and he was very he wasn't a competent, competent it wasn't something that he did professionally, it wasn't something that he was amazing at, but had flown a lot before and obviously had not crashed before, but this time he did. So he's killed, Gwen is killed, Elizabeth's husband, so Gwen's son-in-law Brandon is killed, and then two more couples from Remnant. Yeah, and these were high
00:42:28
Speaker
more high ranking, so closer to Gwen and her family. And they were taking a vacation down to their Destin Beach House, which they did very regularly. And like you said, beautiful area, totally understand why they're doing it. And they were flying private. And then it went down in Smyrna, Tennessee, or something along that nimes, in the Percy Priest Lake. I think that's how you say it.
00:42:58
Speaker
You know, say it with confidence, right? Say it how Gwen would say it. Absolutely. Smart at Tennessee. Exactly. How Joe would say it. Yes. Smearna, Tennessee.
00:43:11
Speaker
Yeah, the plane was in pieces. I mean, it was a horrific crash. Yeah. And the church response was kind of weird, um starting with Elizabeth, texting everyone like, oh, like,
00:43:27
Speaker
there's been a plane crash but everyone's okay and we'll update you as soon as we can when it was very clear initially that everything was not okay. And that just shows like another level of denial that everyone was under. And like we said before, it was Delaney's wedding day, which had everyone from the church at it because she was marrying a member of the church and everyone was just acting like that did not happen and I don't know what the right thing to do is in that situation like because otherwise I guess it would just ruin the wedding but it kind of seems like a event worthy of ruining the wedding and it's sort of bizarre not to acknowledge that
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think I have mixed feelings. So part of me is at the at the time, so the plane crashed in the morning and you're getting ready for the wedding. And then they were notified that they had crashed, but to the participants and the bride, to their knowledge, yes, there was a crash, but nobody had died. What they were being told was that there was a rescue mission happening, not a looking for bodies mission, which I'm blanking on that name for some reason. And I think that because of that, they held on to the idea of, well, she was injured, but she's okay. So let's go on with the wedding. What I think is strange is everywhere that I could find, Gwen was typically at every wedding. She was typically the one performing the wedding.
00:45:10
Speaker
So it's bizarre to me she wasn't even there to begin with. Like, why this day? I think that was weird. I mean, Delaney's parents had told her that they wouldn't go if Gwen was officiating. I don't know if they had sway like that, that it could have changed anything, but she wasn't gonna officiate. So I don't know if maybe it just conflicted with her vacation plans or... Yeah, that one definitely was bizarre to me.
00:45:38
Speaker
um But like you said, they pretty much pretended it didn't happen.
Leadership Transition: Elizabeth Shamblin
00:45:42
Speaker
And it took a little while for them to actually notify the members that there was a death certificate issued for each of them. Cool. Yes.
00:46:00
Speaker
Talk about betrayal. um Which I think, and this is just me in my opinion, it would have rocked the church. And I don't think, Elizabeth had made statements in the past that she didn't want to lead the church, but she would if she had to. And that's when everyone started going, she is just the one that makes sense. And I don't think ever, the congregation never gave her an opportunity to not take over. And that's exactly what she did.
00:46:34
Speaker
right I mean, well, Michael wasn't gonna do it, even though he's the older child, but he's he wasn't he was not cut out for it. And Elizabeth, to her detriment, I think, is extremely cut out for this. I think that Gwen trained her to be ready for this, not for this exact situation, but to take over eventually. I think that was always kind of Gwen's plan, but I mean, Elizabeth lost so much in this crash. It's truly horrific. Like her mother, her husband, one of her best friends, her stepdad killed all of them essentially through his inability to fly a plane. It's, I mean, that's,
00:47:23
Speaker
crushingly devastating and Elizabeth has seemingly been extremely strong and just barreling through and is still a leader at Remnant now because the church is going on. The leadership was still in place, you know, all of the men that Gwen had running her organization, except for the ones on the plane, are still all in place. So it's Elizabeth is running it, but she's not doing it all alone. And I think actually,
00:47:53
Speaker
Ironically, the death of Gwen may be able to have the church that she established run the way she preached rather than the one the way she ran it. Because the structure of the church, what she told people was there was God, there was the hierarchy of men, which was a group of I think four or five men in higher positions that helped lead the church and make decisions and keep the people in like a spiritual track and then it was Gwen and then it was the congregation.
00:48:32
Speaker
But in reality, it was Gwen, then these men, then the congregation. And I think with Elizabeth kind of coming in, like you said, she's not doing it alone. How could she also, yeah considering the loss that she just had? But I think she's going to definitely be her mother's daughter. I've watched a couple of her preaches and testimonies since the crash.
00:49:01
Speaker
And she has potential, she's very much a little copy, but I do think she's going about it more where, at least from the outside perspective, we don't know internally, that these men are actually above, and then it's her. She's more of the figurehead, but these men have a lot more power than they used to.
00:49:24
Speaker
Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. Because where's the quote? I did write it down that she said relatively soon after they kind of started accepting it. um And she said, my mother started it and I wanted to not only keep it going, but expand it around the globe in such an exponential level that every everyone who sees it can pick it up and get it.
00:49:51
Speaker
And I think that's the avenue of like, she had been taught her whole life about this avenue for her by her mom. And how else do you kind of present that when you're asked? I don't know if she's actually going to try and execute that, but I think she's playing a very good part of being in front.
00:50:17
Speaker
Yes. I would agree with that as well. I think that Elizabeth will do a pretty good job. um I think she would keep everything running. um It also probably helps that she inherited all of Gwen's money. Right. That doesn't hurt. Because her and Michael became the sole heirs of Gwen's will.
00:50:38
Speaker
even though as so as recent as like four weeks prior to her death, I mean, she was telling the news, she would give interviews and say that it's selfish to hold on to your money and that you should always be pouring back money into your church and mission work, charity, stuff like that. She did not leave a dime to the church or to charity. She left it to her children. They got everything.
00:51:04
Speaker
so And interestingly, Uh, Michael pretty much has stepped away, which we all kind of assumed was happening. And yeah his only public statement, not only one, but one of the few he made was that he has sympathy for his sister and he doesn't attend church services at all. And doesn't directly speak poorly or negatively about his sister, but definitely this was an opportunity for him to be able to remove himself.
00:51:36
Speaker
I don't think Gwen ever would truly let him, but I don't think Elizabeth has the energy to not. Yeah, I don't think Elizabeth's gonna come chasing him down.
00:51:47
Speaker
she has childrens she has She has children, she has millions of dollars that she has to be managing. She has an entire church depending on her as a figurehead. I mean, she's not chasing after Michael. She also didn't really want to share the pulpit with him. And he wasn't cut out for it anyway. And I think that it's probably a blessing in disguise for Michael. I'm sure losing his mother was absolutely horrific. And his sister's husband, I mean, it's very upsetting.
00:52:15
Speaker
by to your point, like he, unlike Delaney, grew up in this church, and not just in the church, but with your mother as the leader. And it was his sources of income, his friends, his family, his beliefs, his dieting, everything, the music that he was subduing for the church, it was all encompassing. And he wasn't supposed to have a life outside of his mother's church. So I think now that she's gone, and he can just shove everything over to Elizabeth.
00:52:47
Speaker
He can just kind of live his life. Yeah. And oddly, I think this has changed now in 2024, but for a long time, Elizabeth also wasn't present at church, which in my opinion, I think was a good decision because she thought what was best for her. She just went through a lot of loss, but she would record and then the recordings would be played in church. So for a long time, she wasn't present at church.
00:53:14
Speaker
And I think that was a lot of uneasiness for the church as a whole and made it tough for the current congregation. and for But however, those who stayed definitely were the most devout. As like you said, it's still yeah up and running. It is. I got go so the interesting you gotta to say, it's beautiful. The landscape is beautiful. like It's a nice place to go to church.
00:53:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah, absolutely. It was visually stimulating. Yes, a lot of videos, a lot of music. It looks like it was a good time. I don't think it was, but it did look that way. I think if like you went, yeah, like, oh, let's go listen to the fun music and like socialize and then be like, as long as you don't like take in what they're saying.
00:54:13
Speaker
Yeah, mean I don't think I could hang out with any of these people, but I would also probably go to McDonald's after we had water for lunch. um Right, exactly. but yeah i oh That's my own issues. Yeah, I also haven't eaten for two days as there's like twix bars in my purse.
00:54:33
Speaker
i be like i you know I just have the physical hunger. like I need to get some nuggets out of my way. We need the spicy buffalo sauce. i mean God told me it was okay. It's fine. We're awful. Maybe this is my lack of religion. you know I think that might be the problem. It's because you're going to hell. This would not work for me. but I know, but it's like, I just want to be skinny. That's one of those things that I first- It's so dumb. It's so vapid. But I think that's part of mix the American culture, right? Yeah. you're You see that image. And when i the first time I ever watched this documentary was that I watched the whole thing and I was like, wow, that's wild. And then the other part of me went, if only I was like a devoted Christian,
00:55:24
Speaker
Why wouldn't you try it? know like It's one of those i'm like I get it. Because if I had that kind of commitment to God already, I could very easily see how people would go down this path. I get it. I just don't have that. I don't know. My my draw to pasta is way too strong.
00:55:46
Speaker
I know. I mean, I'd be lying if i would say if I haven't been watching Gwen content being like, I will probably do this. It's just the turning it over to God that gets me every time. Yeah, but I think it's basically just like intuitive eating and portion control. So I have done that and just like other people, but just like ah all the other people that have like left her church or her other yo-yo dieters because we're all fucked up about food, they gain the weight back. Just like every diet that I've done where I've lost weight and then gained it back and how, unfortunately, I'll probably continue to do until I go to hell. Oh, 100%. I That's what I'm doing. so Good for Gwen, I guess, that she was able to take her eating disorder and monetize it. um
00:56:37
Speaker
Well, she gained her freshman 15, so don't forget that. um I still have my freshman 15. So my sympathy for her. I mean, she did die in a ah horrifically terrifying way. And I don't wish that upon anyone. But i do I do think it's kind of funny in a super messed up way that her whole thing is that God gives you what you deserve. And like God will bless your life if you deserve it. And she exploded in a plane with the other people that were preaching her bullshit.
00:57:12
Speaker
it's I mean, if that's not God, baby, saying, hey, you won't speak for me. easta i don't know I don't know what is. like You're saying everyone's supposed to skip lunch on Thanksgiving. like Dinner is lunch at Thanksgiving. If I don't eat lunch, I'm not going to eat all day. Right? You're right. I did skip dinner on Thanksgiving. You're welcome. I just had three lunch on Thanksgiving.
00:57:36
Speaker
ah right Well, my dinner was at two o'clock, so call it what you want. But like I'm not going to not eat like at a holiday. It's crazy. yeah And I am not like opposed to intermittent fast. Really, anybody can do whatever they want. I don't care. But I just think it's terribly ironic.
00:57:53
Speaker
um And I hope that Elizabeth doesn't die from anorexia. She looks really, really, really thin to me. She's very thin now. And I think there's a combo of a cheating issue and severe depression. Because again, I don't think we mentioned it is they don't believe in medications. So if you have a severe mental health condition that needs medication,
00:58:18
Speaker
And honestly, if I lost my child, my best friend, my mom, and my husband all within a very short period, I probably also would need some kind of professional help to get out of that. like Well, I mean, if she sought therapy and medication, got a support group, got help, that would be flying in the face of everything that she was taught.
00:58:45
Speaker
And she's just supposed to turn all of her pain to God. So that's what she has to do. And I hope that she's secretly in therapy and secretly like getting all of the help and support that she needs. But I think it's really sad and very harmful and damaging and to tell people that they're not allowed to seek help outside of the church. To me, that makes it a cult. And I just think it's very, it's it's really not helpful and I think it causes a lot of, it doesn't necessarily cause depression but it's, depression is a real thing that can really happen to anyone and there's nothing wrong with seeing medical professionals when you're having a medical issue like that and I just think that they made it seem like a personality flaw, like a character defect, which is what a lot of religions do and I just think it's,
00:59:42
Speaker
very damaging. They're also, we're doing conversion therapy type stuff for gay people. It was just, I mean, all of the things that they believe are just so foreign to my way of thinking. But I... um Yeah, I don't know. Do you have any final thoughts about Gwen? I was just going to say, you kind of answered my question if you thought they were a cult or not. Because I personally do. If you thought they were what? If they were a cult. A cult. I think so. I agree. I think before that insular, it sets off the cult thing in my brain. Yeah. I do think, though,
01:00:22
Speaker
which is different than other ones we've had. I do think that with the new leadership, it has the opportunity to no longer be a cult. I think under Gwen, it was a cult and there was no question to me, but I think under Elizabeth, there is actually an opportunity for this to shift and just be a more strict Christian based church and not necessarily a cult. I do think there's that opportunity there. Do I think it's going to happen? Probably not.
01:00:51
Speaker
But I do think there's opportunity there, unlike a lot of other organizations we've seen and talked about. Well, it'll just be like more of a generic evangelical religion run by men, essentially. Yep. So it just won't be, it won't have the flair that it had when Gwen was in charge. So I don't know if it'll appeal to women in the same way. But I mean, the weight loss stuff, that'll draw people in, drawing us in, and we're very s skeptical of it.
01:01:19
Speaker
So I think that if, I mean her books are also available for sale. There's, the church is still making a lot of money, I think. um So they'll continue to run as a more normal Christian church, I think. But I agree, it's probably not as cultish now because I i do think that Gwen was the charismatic leader and Elizabeth maybe could be the charismatic leader.
01:01:48
Speaker
I mean, if she does choose to become a Gwen type figure, she will have an amazing story to talk about what she's overcome. And that I think would sell a lot of books. So maybe Elizabeth will publish a memoir about how she overcame the darkest thing someone probably could go through. That's a good point. That's an interesting one. Yeah, for sure. It's still very recent, though.
01:02:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think as long as she's in charge and the church is active, that won't happen. But maybe one day. I would probably read up. All right. Well, that was everything I had for Miss Gwen and the affiliates of her and Remnant Church. And I think onto our next cult or criminal mom.
01:02:45
Speaker
Alright, sounds good. We will talk soon. Have a good one.