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Mary Kay Letourneau
170 Plays27 days ago
This week on Mothers of all crime we are discussing the one, the only, Mary Kay Schmitz- Letourneau- Fualaau. Mary Kay rose to infamy after it was discovered that she had abused her role as an educator and had a sexual relationship with a child she had taught. Mary Kay was a married mother of four children when she began to groom and ultimately become impregnated by a 12 year old boy. This was an international scandal of epic proportions. Mary Kay was given a deal to avoid jail time but could not stay away from her victim. She would end up serving 7 years and giving birth to Vili's second child behind prison walls. The world was rocked again when Mary Kay emerged from prison and quickly married her former student/baby daddy. Was this the perfect love story all along? Or a long miserable tale of abuse? Join us for our thoughts, feelings and opinions regarding this case.
Listener discretion is advised.
May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Mothers of All Crime. This is a podcast where we deep dive into mothers involved in infamous crimes and scandals. I'm Monica and this is Crystal.
00:00:33
Speaker
Welcome back to the Mothers of All Crime. I'm Monica. This is
Media's Role in Mary Kay Letourneau's Case
00:00:37
Speaker
Crystal. And today we're talking about the infamous Mary Kay Letourneau. Yes, I feel like Mary or Mary Kay, however you want to refer to her, really kind of took over the media at the time.
00:00:53
Speaker
And then resurfaced relatively recently. Yeah. And became like another internet sensation. It's a gripping story. I feel like it was the first of its kind in a lot of ways, but it also is relatable in other ways. And I think that there's a lot to talk about. There's a lot of gossip associated with this case, particularly. So I think it's interesting also to look at the way...
00:01:20
Speaker
I don't know, that media viewed things, that everybody viewed things maybe in the 90s versus in our 2000s, 2020s kind of a view. Changed over time.
00:01:34
Speaker
Yeah, because it really depends on what publication you
The Relationship Between Letourneau and Vili Fualaau
00:01:39
Speaker
look at, right? So we have one documentary, the autobiography, Mary Kay Laterno.
00:01:45
Speaker
You have another one that I think was on Netflix that was a little bit more focusing on their, quote, love story. um And you hear that referenced a lot of it was a true love story. And hears from the victim, quote unquote, um the offender, quote unquote, and even people surrounding them are even saying they were truly in love.
00:02:11
Speaker
So it's a very bizarre situation right where right and then the short answer is she's a grown woman in her 30s who then dated had children with and married a minor so it's an interesting kind of thing that they tried to portray even in the media they were publishing these statements so yeah kind of an odd one definitely i mean there's mixed opinions um i think we could just talk about the essentials of the case and so mary k schmitz was married to steve letourneau changed her name to letourneau they got
00:02:59
Speaker
pregnant like right away dating in college her mom forced them to get married they had three more kids they were very unhappy they didn't have any money um mary was teaching at a school that went up to eighth grade and her husband was working at like an airport and they had four kids and they had a mortgage they couldn't afford and mary was spending a lot of extra time with a particular student who has a very challenging name to say, but I'm going to attempt it.
00:03:30
Speaker
It's Vili Flaau. He is a Samoan child at this point when she meets him. He's in sixth grade. He's 12 years old. And she thought that he was an artistic prodigy.
00:03:47
Speaker
um I'm sorry. She actually met him when he was in second grade because that's when she was his teacher. But they kept in touch. And she started taking him to extra classes for his art when he was like 12.
00:03:59
Speaker
And he had a single mom. His dad was in prison. So they were kind of thrilled at this teacher taking extra care and attention of their very talented child.
00:04:10
Speaker
And he started spending a lot of time at their house, like the Letourneau house. And eventually one of Steve Letourneau, the husband, one of his relatives called the police.
00:04:24
Speaker
and said that Mary is pregnant and it's not her husband's baby. It's a 12-year-old student's baby. And that's how this really all came out and exploded.
00:04:38
Speaker
Yeah, which is crazy, right? Crazy. Just like the short synopsis of it. Crazy. um And this was happening in the West Coast. So you have, not that it makes a difference, but...
00:04:53
Speaker
It was a relatively, i would say middle class area from what I could tell. But Billy was really more growing up on the poverty side. he You could tell from pictures, he definitely looked a little bit older than he was.
Legal and Ethical Violations
00:05:14
Speaker
um and He definitely seemed to struggle more from the academics and was much more an artistic mind because he they focused in on in the documentary how he really was older, like had an older soul, for a lack of better words.
00:05:33
Speaker
hmm. they described him having a mustache he did kindergarten twice he never really gave the feeling that there was an age difference between them and marywood kind of zone in on the fact that she wasn't his teacher When they started having their relationship when he was going into the middle school.
00:05:57
Speaker
um And they met in college. He was in college. So it's really manipulating those words, right? Absolutely. Yes. He was taking summer art classes.
00:06:07
Speaker
But he wasn't in college. he was And she was driving him there. on a college campus. Because he was a kid. Right. she was driving him there. Although there are many reports of him driving her car when he was 12, 13 years old and did not have a permit, did not have a license. And she would let him drive her car.
00:06:25
Speaker
her car Like she did not view him as a child, but he very, very, very much was a child. And I think that the documentary that you watched, the A&E documentary, the autobiography of Mary Kay Latornell, it is really good.
00:06:42
Speaker
I really enjoyed it But it's very much from Mary Kay's perspective and Billy at the Times perspective. And to me, it's very delusional.
00:06:53
Speaker
Like, I just don't believe a word that she says. And I feel like it's fascinating to watch someone talk about their narrative of something when it contradicts so many things that i know to be true.
00:07:08
Speaker
and I think that because of how their story kind of ended, they're able to reframe it. But I think that it leaves a lot unsaid.
00:07:21
Speaker
And Mary is sure very good at crafting a narrative. I just personally think she's a pedophile. And I think that we're, she dresses it up and you can say whatever, but I just like, that's, that's what I think.
00:07:35
Speaker
That's where I end up. Oh, I don't, I don't, I think she is a child molester and sexual offender, but I do not think she's a pedophile. And i I'm going to get into that later because there is a distinct difference.
00:07:49
Speaker
I would love to hear the differences. But for yeah. But for her, what I think is important is to kind of give the understanding that this is, she wasn't unfamiliar with understanding ages of children, right? So she was married. She had children.
00:08:06
Speaker
children of her own. I think four at the time, if I remember. She four at the time, one that was one year younger than Billy.
00:08:15
Speaker
Right. So she had a conceptual grasp of what children were so she we can assume there's no documentation in this but we can assume she's teaching her children age appropriate things so because you have a lot of people surrounding in interviews the documentary outside of their relationship stating she was a good mom and she was very involved and she worked in an elementary school so it was
00:08:48
Speaker
can be assumed she had an understanding of what age appropriate things were. So this difference that she had with Vili is a little bit unique.
00:08:59
Speaker
So it seems that for some reason, She zoned in on this one individual and decided he wasn't a child. Because like you said, she was giving him, allowing him to drive, letting him do all these things that she probably wouldn't be letting her own child who's the same age do.
Letourneau's Manipulation and Justifications
00:09:21
Speaker
Definitely agree with you there.
00:09:24
Speaker
But she did have other inappropriate relationships with students, just not sexual inappropriate relationships. She had... very elaborate friendships with children that were her former students that would come help her at the school.
00:09:40
Speaker
And she would be talking on them. Like, I only know this because I read Greg Olson wrote a really good memoir, not a memoir, I guess a biography about Mary Kay Letourneau. And there's all these interviews and stuff like that with people that knew her when.
00:09:56
Speaker
And this is not mentioned in the A&E documentary because it doesn't fit with their narrative. But she had oh ah whole gang of kids hanging out with her at the class. She would stay till 10 o'clock at night.
00:10:08
Speaker
She would have these kids over to her house. She would be on the phone with them constantly. i mean, to me, that's very inappropriate. And I just... Oh, absolutely. And like they were 12, 13, 14-year-old kids.
00:10:20
Speaker
And my mother teaches eighth grade. None of those kids have her phone number. None of them have been to her house. None of them have slept over. They don't hang out with her alone.
00:10:31
Speaker
It's just not... it's inappropriate. And like, to me, she doesn't acknowledge that because she wasn't having sex with them. So she looks at it as a very different thing. But I think that she had some very blurred lines. I think that more so that Billy, I feel like her narrative now and her narrative then,
00:10:50
Speaker
is that Vili is so special and that's why what they did is okay because they're soulmates and they're in love. So it's not a problem. Other people are children. Other people are victims. Other people are predators, but not me, not him. We're special.
00:11:07
Speaker
And I think that that's something a lot of predators say. And a lot of people who groom children say that. And I think that, I think with,
00:11:19
Speaker
Yeah, because you have this situation, right, where the narrative changes. And that's what's so different about this case is when it was happening.
00:11:32
Speaker
Spoiler, she's no longer alive. um But when she was alive and then the two of them were together. there was a consistent narrative with the both of them that he pursued her and she kind of gave in Right.
00:11:51
Speaker
that's she says. Yeah. That's the thing. Well, that's what he said as well. Like you have interviews of him for many, many years. Absolutely. And I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that that's, what's very different than a lot of other cases, right? You have this,
00:12:09
Speaker
quote, victim, saying that he went after her, he's the aggressor. so And then what I think she failed at and what your point kind of is, is that is a normal preteen boy thing to do, right? Like have a crush on a teacher, might make an inappropriate comment.
00:12:30
Speaker
But that's when you shut that down, this is not appropriate, you put up that boundary. And she was more flattered that she was getting this attention. Yeah.
00:12:41
Speaker
And then kind of zoned in on it, which again is where that predator line starts to blur. And that relationship starts to build because not only is she feeling special, he's feeling special. He's got the teacher that everybody thinks is pretty. And this one-on-one attention, kind of a lacking family home, needing that void that That she gave him.
00:13:10
Speaker
So it really was this on the outside that they presented at the beginning. Agree. Very. i do think that's their narrative. For sure. Yes.
00:13:23
Speaker
Definitely. But I think we need to talk about. And i'm not saying that that's what it was. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I know that you're not condoning this, but I could understand like if so, like I have been obsessed with this case forever.
00:13:37
Speaker
And so my opinions have ebbed and flowed and changed. With different things that I've watched, different things that I've read, interviews, because they've done a lot of interviews.
00:13:47
Speaker
And so they say contradictory things. And they're very charming, especially Mary. She is very good at presenting something and making you go along with it.
00:14:01
Speaker
And I think that, sure, she that's why she's so compelling. And I think that the story has been very glamorized. And I think we need to acknowledge, of course, it's because she's a woman and this is a boy child that we're talking about.
00:14:15
Speaker
So the reaction of the media in the 90s, a lot of people, not just the media, but a lot of people, oh, well, what a lucky boy. What a lucky kid. Oh, man, I wish these teachers were giving out sex in my day.
00:14:29
Speaker
And i just, I've heard that a lot. And I remember a similar scandal happening somewhere close to where I live. And it was a very similar reaction. Oh, well, he was a boy.
00:14:41
Speaker
he probably wanted it. You know, oh, it's fun. Like every guy's dream. And it's like he's a child. So whether or not he wants to do it, he doesn't have the maturity to decide that.
00:14:56
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. But what you're forgetting is this is also the first case where the quote victim is openly saying they pursued the person.
00:15:09
Speaker
They ah agree. They want to be in like most ah other cases that had such headlines didn't have that connection. But there are plenty of cases. That's why I think.
00:15:21
Speaker
I'm sorry. Yeah. i just good no I'm just saying yeah that that's what's so different and why the media really latched on it. Not only was she the first female that really kind of was taken to court and made this big example of, but also the first one that the victim is standing by her side.
00:15:41
Speaker
So don't know that's true because i e e different I do think there are a lot of circumstances where younger girls are groomed and preyed upon by adult men. And then they're like, but I love him.
00:15:53
Speaker
We're meant to be. I pursued him like, and it's just not viewed the same way. Oh yeah. You have boys that will be treated differently. Of course.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah. And I just with the addition of her being pregnant with his child, I think added that now another wrench in to, okay, how do we handle that?
00:16:17
Speaker
Well, I do want to talk about that and how that affected her criminally, um the pregnancies. So she, i want to just take us back to her getting arrested.
00:16:28
Speaker
so she got arrested when she was pregnant um with Billy's child. He's 12, she's 35, she's pregnant. And because it's statutory rape, which is ah strict liability and there is no but we're in love and he looks older.
00:16:46
Speaker
Those things don't apply. but she was given it Doesn't matter. She was given a plea bargain and she would only get six months in jail with three months suspended as long as she could go no contact with Vili.
00:17:02
Speaker
And after she did three months in jail, within days, she was caught in a car having sex with Vili.
00:17:12
Speaker
Yeah. and Right. That's when she actually went to prison and she was already pregnant when she returned to prison. And she ended up doing a year in solitary when she was in prison because she was writing notes on her breast milk bottles for Billy.
00:17:30
Speaker
She never stopped pursuing him. And you could say it was mutual, but she's a convicted rapist. from prison still sending him messages when there's a court order. Like in my mind, she's pursuing him and the entire time it's been her pursuing him and this is what she wanted.
00:17:52
Speaker
And this is not optional for him. And he was in too deep. He's 14 years old and he has two kids with her. Like he could have never seen her again, i guess, but he would still have the kids with her forever.
00:18:07
Speaker
Right. So with that um agreement, part of that was the sex offender treatment agreement. Right.
Legal Consequences and Media Influence
00:18:18
Speaker
So in the state of Washington, which is where she was convicted, legal consent is 16 without a power dynamic.
00:18:28
Speaker
So if there's a power dynamic in consideration specifically for students, you have to be at least 60 months older than the 18 year old student. So there was no wiggle room for her when it came down to this. So the fact that a plea agreement was even made is very surprising to me.
00:18:50
Speaker
It's because but I think it was a lot of, I don't necessarily think it's pregnant. I think it was media. I think it's media. She's a woman. why She's a mother. She's pretty. She's white. She's blonde.
00:19:03
Speaker
She's not going to be held to the same standards as other pedophiles. And she was and I know. ok predators. We can agree she's a predator. Rapist. She's definitely a convicted rapist.
00:19:16
Speaker
child rapist is the charge and she did not get the same consequences that a man would get in the same situation she played dumb the entire time which is so frustrating to me she oh i didn't know it was illegal i thought it was only illegal for men to do this well i didn't know okay, well, the second, third, fourth time you're being arrested, you definitely know.
00:19:42
Speaker
it's You can only play dumb to such a point. And I don't think that she was held to the same standards that she should have been because she othered herself, but also the media othered her. So there was so much scrutiny and attention, but she should have been held to the same standard and there really shouldn't have been an exception made.
00:20:01
Speaker
I don't think anyway. I just, I feel like she got too many chances and she used it to abuse him further.
00:20:11
Speaker
I, I think that she honestly, when it comes to the courts, I think she got just as many chances as everybody else does. i think there's this misunderstanding with the justice system that people go in and they never see the light of day again.
00:20:26
Speaker
the majority of people get let back out. The majority of people aren't held till court. Like, there The fact that she's never had a criminal history and that she was given this plea is not surprising to me. um Particularly with her media focus. Like, the court systems don't like media crazes. They don't.
00:20:51
Speaker
And they don't like the focus. They don't like the attention. And the media really spun it, like you said, is this pretty female. She definitely played the dumb card.
00:21:02
Speaker
and But the difference is once she went to court, it was made very clear to her what the expectations were. She had an understanding of what the agreement was.
00:21:13
Speaker
ah And that's what she then violated. So it's it I think after the first time, it doesn't matter. Because she had this presentation, right, that she agreed to.
00:21:29
Speaker
It was a standard treatment for SOs. It's six month detention, three year treatment, seven year deferred. So basically meaning if she violated anything, she would then go to jail for seven years.
00:21:45
Speaker
um But she, I think, lived in la-la land that the rules kind of only would partly apply to her because she is a mom.
00:21:57
Speaker
And part of that restriction is no contact with children or minors. It doesn't matter if it's your children. They are minors. Therefore, they are counted. And she kept focusing on that she couldn't talk to her children.
00:22:13
Speaker
And i can't remember what. I read it in some news article that she made a statement that it wasn't necessarily her previous children that she was so concerned about.
00:22:24
Speaker
It was her children with Vili that she kept harping that this infant needed her more than her other children. Which rubbed me a really icky way because again...
00:22:38
Speaker
you have these other children that were taken by their father, her ex-husband, and moved out of state because he was like, I am going to do everything I can to protect these kids. And obviously, Billy is a child himself, and his mother is now raising her grandchildren, but they're local.
00:22:59
Speaker
So there's that, quote, need to be near them. and She kind of had this delusion that, okay, I won't talk to any kids because her teaching license got suspended as well.
00:23:13
Speaker
But that doesn't count as my kid. Like, no, minors are minors. And it was made clear to her by her attorney, by the counselor, by the court.
00:23:27
Speaker
we're not saying you can't talk to your children forever. We're just saying we need to do some evaluations. You need to go through the first steps of treatment and get everything settled first. And then you can talk to them.
00:23:39
Speaker
Like she took it upon herself to then contact her children, contact Lily, contact all of these people that she knew she wasn't supposed to.
00:23:51
Speaker
And For me, I don't think that's necessarily her focusing in on like re-victimization or focusing on on him. i think it's more of her focusing that that that rule doesn't apply to me.
00:24:05
Speaker
Right? Like time and time again, we see things with her her saying, I didn't know or that doesn't apply to me or this is different because x Y, z I don't think she thought anything about anybody else but herself.
00:24:22
Speaker
Like, I think it was very much, I'm going to do what I want to do if you like it or not. And it's all going to be fine. Because up until now, everything has been fine. Right. Yeah. no i I agree with that. I mean, she definitely didn't think any rules applied to her. And I really don't think she ever thought she would have serious consequences.
00:24:44
Speaker
And even when she was dealing with very serious consequences, it was still not not really settling in and i don't think it ever really did and i guess you know your your reality is your reality right so she lived in hers right yeah and what also found bizarre to me is they didn't end up recharging her so when she was released i think it was like a day or two later she got caught with him or something like that or it was like whatever it was like within the week
00:25:18
Speaker
Yeah. Crazy. But also not shocking, you know. but But what surprised me is they didn't tack on more charges. They just stayed with the charge that they had.
00:25:32
Speaker
Which is weird. I agree. I think they and I don't know why they wouldn't have added additional. It was just the but she just lost her plea pre- agreementment please agreement plea agreement.
00:25:42
Speaker
Right. And in all of her statements to the court, when so like when you give your plea agreements, you can make an impact like victims can do impact statements and then the offender themselves can make a statement.
00:25:56
Speaker
And again, poor me boo hoo. Her statement had quotes like it was morally wrong or please help me with to fix this or like it was very help us all was another one.
00:26:11
Speaker
Very nothing was accepting responsibility. I did this. It was not correct. It was just very vague of like, I mean, you say it's wrong.
00:26:23
Speaker
You can help me. ah But never once that I recognize and I may have missed it. Did she say that she did anything wrong? Oh, yeah. i I have never seen any account or seen any interview by her where she's taking any kind of accountability.
00:26:43
Speaker
Everything is Billy's fault. It's other people misunderstanding her terrible husband. Like everything is someone else's fault. And yeah, I mean, that's what I just mean. She doesn't live in reality because she lived in a hell of her own making.
00:27:01
Speaker
And i think that, yeah, I mean, yeah. And so speaking of we have, a previous episode, we talked about with grooming, you kind of groom the community, right? You groom the family.
00:27:19
Speaker
During the trial, Vili's mother went in and during her impact statement, She's pleading for the babies, which is fair. um But her then statements turn into her son is not a victim. This isn't a crime.
00:27:35
Speaker
They care. Like she started. I don't want to say condoning it, but pleading for leniency that Mary would be either went out.
00:27:46
Speaker
not prosecuted, lighter sentence, whatever the case is. But I think this was a hard one because you then saw, if you rewind, clips of her crying in the courtroom that she didn't know what was happening to her child.
00:28:04
Speaker
But then a couple days later, She flip flops and pleads for Mary. So it's that conditioning that she probably is conflicted because of that time period of grooming the family. yeah This woman has helped my kid. Look at all the things that he got. Like it's that, again, double edge that she's trying to internally battle because she also was groomed.
00:28:30
Speaker
She was groomed. She didn't have a lot of resources. She didn't have a lot of education. She was extremely busy. She already had her own kids to raise, one of which one of whom is extremely distraught and messed up because of this whole situation.
00:28:46
Speaker
And maybe she thinks it's Mary's fault. Maybe she thinks it's the state's fault. Maybe she thinks whatever. But Billy was noticeably extremely depressed after Mary was in prison.
00:28:58
Speaker
and She also now custody of two babies. And none of her other responsibilities evaporate. You know, now she has to raise these children of her 12-year-old son because he's too young and too messed up to even get custody of them.
00:29:19
Speaker
So for her, there are emotional and financial reasons that she would want Mary to not be in prison. And that's why a victim impact statement is just a statement and it shouldn't really be affecting the sentencing for this. Like she's she may be speaking in her own best interest, but is she speaking in the best interest truly Billy or of the children? Like, I think that could be argued.
00:29:45
Speaker
But I think that if you just can't afford to take care of them and it would be easier for you if their mom got out of jail to take care of them and you don't really care that she's having sex with your teenage son because she's already done it a bunch of times and he seems to like it.
00:29:59
Speaker
then there's really no reason that she would want Mary to be in prison. It doesn't help her that Mary's in prison. Right. And it's not like she's going to look like a good mom if she tells Mary, if she says that Mary should stay in prison, it actually kind of makes her look worse.
00:30:15
Speaker
It's like, oh, so you did let your son be alone with a monster repeatedly. So if Mary's not that bad of a person and you're saying that, and it's like, well, were you really that bad of a mom either for letting the situation happen?
00:30:27
Speaker
And it's like, I think we can all be bad moms here. And I think that that's probably more what it is.
00:30:35
Speaker
Yeah. And that's what is tough with, there's a lot of stuff that supports the idea that those who are living in lower income areas and poverty and things like that, that are, have higher rates of victimization because their parents aren't home as much because their parents might not be aware what they're doing all the time. Absolutely. And,
00:30:57
Speaker
It doesn't necessarily make her a bad mom, but she's doing what she has to to keep food on the table, roof over their head, probably sending her husband in jail but money. Like, it's it's a hard situation. and i'm I hope she feels bad this happened to her kid under her watch.
00:31:15
Speaker
But it's at the same time of, yeah you know? and like It's all in context. It's obviously all in context. i feel like... His mother, like most people, are just doing the best that they could.
00:31:30
Speaker
They're just doing the best that they can with the situation that they're in, with the resources that they have. And life is very difficult. It's very expensive. And when you're put in financial situations, you have to make terrible decisions sometimes. And people make much worse ones when it comes to money and
Impact on Vili Fualaau and His Family
00:31:46
Speaker
finances. And I think that she had good intentions. And I don't think it was like that she was some bad, terrible person.
00:31:52
Speaker
But I just don't think that she was... understanding the impact that this had but possibly had on her son and on her grandchildren and that maybe there were some pros for Mary going to prison and not just cons.
00:32:12
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And so obviously she did go to prison. ah god She went in for the full seven years. yeah Right. Which is, which We say thank God, but then also you have this moment where she gets, they're still in communication while she's in there.
00:32:33
Speaker
Illegally. And, well, at the beginning, illegally. Yeah. But then it turned she got a new attorney and a couple things were turned over so she was able to get supervised visitation with the children. She was able to contact Lily. She was able to get financial compensation from doing interviews. When she was out of prison.
00:32:54
Speaker
So... When she was in prison, she was not supposed to be speaking to him at all. But she was. But... Right. Because you have her children coming in. You have his mother coming in. like they Anybody who thinks that she's not going to have communication with him indirectly, doesn't have any clue what the prison system's like.
00:33:17
Speaker
i Because it is so common for people to, first of all, they have nothing but time, right? They're going to figure it out if they want to. And also, it's so normal to have, for example, say you bring your grandchildren to visit their mom and you're going talk about things that are happening at home. What's going on? Your kids are going to talk like, oh, daddy did this. It wouldn't even necessarily be like her efforts. It's just going to happen.
00:33:50
Speaker
And I think it was naive for the courts to think that particularly for someone who is not only obsessed with him, but also has children with him, that there would be zero contact for seven years, I think is naive, personally.
00:34:06
Speaker
For sure. And hard to enforce. But I think that, like you said, she had nothing but time on her hands. So she was plotting ways to get in contact with her teenage victim and using her kids to do that.
00:34:21
Speaker
And I think people do that a lot. Like they put messages through babies. They put a note in the diaper. They write something on the breast milk. they I mean, it's a common tactic because children are not going to get searched as much in and out of prison, or at least that's the idea.
00:34:37
Speaker
And so, yeah, I mean, people are going to do bad, terrible things that are illegal, but it's, she also didn't think there'd ever be consequences.
00:34:47
Speaker
Right. And you have it going back and forth, right? so you have people on the outside who are just as creative about getting messages to her either directly from Billy or Billy's family, friends, whatever.
00:35:03
Speaker
um when you're dealing with someone who's incarcerated, both sides of the fence are very, very creative. And definitely over the years, I've seen some pretty impressive stuff, but not that it makes it right.
00:35:18
Speaker
I'm just saying is it would be one thing. And this is where I struggle. Like I go back and forth, right? Because you have the mental side of She 100% is a predator. She 100% groomed him brought him in And then this would have been, in a lot of circumstances, his opportunity to get away, right?
00:35:46
Speaker
Seven years. If he felt at the in the moment like a victim, this would have been his opportunity to remove that contact. He very easily could have reported it.
00:36:02
Speaker
So, and this is where I think this case gets so much view is because is is he a victim? Yes. But he himself didn't view it that way.
00:36:13
Speaker
And that's why you have this continuance issue. And seven years later, he's sitting there waiting for her to be released. And that's what happening
00:36:29
Speaker
it It doesn't make it right by any means. Don't get me wrong. But it's more of that like it just shows how strong the grooming and connection was. Yeah. That he thought that this would be the best option for him.
00:36:44
Speaker
Well, she took away a lot of his options by making him a teen dad at 12 and 14. But also, i think we talked about this on the grooming episode. When you've been victimized, you're more likely to be victimized again because it's a terrible blow to your ego, to your self-esteem. And even if he did not view it that way,
00:37:03
Speaker
I think by his actions, by his behaviors, I do think that there's a lot of evidence that he really struggled in the aftermath of her crimes but and also her conviction, which he felt a lot of guilt over.
00:37:15
Speaker
And I think that that's not uncommon either, that victims of sexual abuse feel guilty. They feel bad that someone's in prison because of them. Even if that's maybe not how I view it, not how you view it.
00:37:27
Speaker
But it's like this happened because of me. it's the disclosure phase. Yeah. Yeah. and The disclosure phase for it. She's in prison because of me. I'm at home with our kids. He dropped out of high school.
00:37:37
Speaker
He suffered with alcoholism. He attempted suicide. He went through a lot of struggles. And it it's we can't know what his life would have been like without Mary entering the picture.
00:37:53
Speaker
But it altered the course of his life in a way that I think is further abuse of him. And I think it limited his options. And I think he could have maybe gotten away from her if he also got away from his family, who because of the children was accepting of her.
00:38:12
Speaker
And because of the children, he had a lot of additional responsibility. So him just taking off and not having contact with Mary, it was much, much harder because of the kids.
00:38:23
Speaker
Who she still had access to. Oh, absolutely. So i just feel like he was kind of set up not only that. Oh, yeah. But then you have society supporting them.
00:38:34
Speaker
Yeah. so they got out. Well, they got out. She got out. They got engaged very publicly and made a bridal registry.
00:38:44
Speaker
And strangers on the internet bought every single thing on there and sent it to them in support of their relationship. yeah So as a younger person, like take away the fact that he's a teenager, right?
00:39:00
Speaker
Let's just pretend that he's in his early 20s making a really bad decision. If you have everyone around you, in including strangers, telling you they support you, you're doing the right thing, fight the system.
00:39:14
Speaker
Absolutely. It's going to reinforce whatever decision you're making. Absolutely. And that I agree, like I think he got cornered.
00:39:26
Speaker
That made it really tough for him. But one thing I want to talk about is specifically her ah SO
Sex Offender Restrictions and Public Perception
00:39:36
Speaker
restrictions. So she became, when you get released after being charged, um she had two counts of rape of a child in the second degree.
00:39:45
Speaker
You are required to be a registered sex offender, which has all kinds of restrictions of its own, including like where you can live, where things you can work, um for things you can attend.
00:40:02
Speaker
Yet it didn't seem that those restrictions applied to her. And found it bizarre because you have...
00:40:16
Speaker
Her attending school events and kind of working as a paralegal and attending things for her kids with other kids around.
00:40:30
Speaker
Not a standard thing that registered SOs are allowed to do. So again, the rules didn't apply to her.
00:40:42
Speaker
And that's where you have this reinforcement for her that what I'm doing is okay and what I did is okay because this rule goes for other people, but that rule doesn't go for me.
00:40:58
Speaker
Other SOs can't go within 100 yards of a school, but I can go to my kids' play in the school. It's that reinforcement of, what her choices were and their quote love is okay
00:41:16
Speaker
yeah that's yeah it's love wins is what she's going for for sure she thinks this is a beautiful love story and I do think it has been reinforced many many times and I mean in the early days of book was published only in France about their love story because it's viewed a little bit differently over there.
00:41:42
Speaker
Um, and then i think that Mary, you could call her infamous, but I think she was also famous and, Villy was an aspiring DJ also. And when Mary got out of prison, he did hot for teacher nights at his DJing stuff.
00:42:01
Speaker
And it was like very popular. And I think that, yeah, and she would come and she would dance and she would wear her red lipstick and they would take pictures because it would go viral ah for the time, you know? And i think that they were known for this.
00:42:18
Speaker
They made money doing it. They got a lot of praise when they got married and people were like, well, okay, all's well that ends well. You guys proved us all wrong.
00:42:29
Speaker
And I just could not disagree with that more. And I think that people marry their abusers all of the time and it's not romantic. And I feel like that's what happened here.
00:42:44
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I personally agree with you, but I'm trying to like bring in the different perspectives that I've seen on different articles and stuff because it's one of those things that as an intellect, we know the patterns, right? We know it's you marry your abuser because it's comfortable or it's not always bad or, but look at our love. And like you have these different things, right?
00:43:15
Speaker
but at the same time, you also know what you're taught. Yeah.
Parental Influence and Letourneau's Double Life
00:43:22
Speaker
And this is where I have this, it is a theory that is both supported and disproven that you can become an abuser by being abused yourself or witnessing Abuse. So certain actions, if you see it, might not be happening to you, but if you see it, you're then going to repeat it.
00:43:46
Speaker
Sure. Mary's father was accused of having an affair with one of his students. Yes. Mary's father has been proven to have had intercourse with underage persons.
00:44:00
Speaker
Yes. So you have this example in her life that this is normal and this is okay because nothing happened to dad. Well, Mary's father fathered two children with his student when he was teaching a college class.
00:44:19
Speaker
That's what happened with that. And that's why her parents separated. Example. Yeah. But they got back together because they're Catholic. Yeah. You have this example. hmm. Yeah, and her father was her hero.
00:44:33
Speaker
absolutely her hero and he was a senator and he was in congress he was like a wealthy man he would solve her problems with money and he was the greatest person ever so her doing him doing anything wrong like that's unthinkable so it's probably because her mother was so frigid or something which is also i think definitely what she grew up to think and i think she blamed steve for a lot of her relationship with billy like she would have never been seeking that if he had been a better husband If you were a better husband, you loved me more. yeah you like
00:45:07
Speaker
You gave me the attention. Oh, 100%. There's tons of interviews of her saying that her marriage was lacking all kinds of stuff. Again, somebody else's fault. And her father was dying of cancer at the time.
00:45:20
Speaker
So that's another reason, excuse, whatever, that she uses for why she was so vulnerable to the relationship with Billy because her husband was not supporting her through that terrible time.
00:45:33
Speaker
which yeah would be awful but it's not an excuse obviously right um but i think what you've kept trying to fast forward with is villi does eventually kind of things click for him kind of yeah and i think that It like not necessarily 100%, but a little because there are comments and interviews and things like that more recently.
00:46:02
Speaker
And he did file for divorce from her. and right it well they didn't starts to kind of come into sense so they only filed for separation they never they didn't legally file for divorce but they did separate they separated in 2017 and it was official in 2019 but they never got divorced and yeah the divorce went through in 2019
00:46:33
Speaker
Oh, I have that. he I found an article that said he was divorced in 2019 and that's when he moved to California. Oh, no, I'm pretty sure that they're not, that they never got divorced.
00:46:46
Speaker
Oh, interesting. I don't know. If someone finds out the real answer, let us know. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that they never actually got divorced and then they just separated. I mean, so they...
00:46:57
Speaker
to dooooooo do
00:47:03
Speaker
Yeah, I don't I don't think so. I think it was just a separation and they never got to the divorce. But that may be because their separation was finalized in 2019.
00:47:15
Speaker
And then Mary got diagnosed with colon cancer. And died a little bit less than a year after that final separation. So maybe they just never got to it.
00:47:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think she passed in July of 2020. Yeah. 58. Yeah. And he was with her when she died.
00:47:36
Speaker
Yeah, he he came back because he had moved to California.
Vili Fualaau's Changing Perspectives
00:47:40
Speaker
He came back to take care of her and became her primary caregiver the last couple months of her life, um which is a nice thing to do. Yeah.
00:47:53
Speaker
But at the same time, yeah um Because you have, while she was alive, any time that a conversation came up that are you guys having issues? Why did you separate? Why? Like asking anything like that, she would shut that down real quick and didn't really allow edd anyone into that.
00:48:21
Speaker
Right. And I have mixed feelings about that because you like as a human being, you don't necessarily want... like Taking off the fact that she's creepy horrible, but you don't want to announce why you're having issues because everybody has issues. and like You don't want to tell people why you're getting separated. like I can understand that. I definitely understand that as well.
00:48:45
Speaker
because Yeah. And like, I want to keep that private. Like we can tell the good things, but I don't want to talk about the bad things. um But then you have the fact that they are quote media famous. Like, and you, you take the good with the bad, right? Like you clearly have a media sensation. do You talk on all these talk shows. so You have to be able to be like, Hey, we're real people. You want people to accept you. Then tell all the good with the bad.
00:49:16
Speaker
Talk about the fact that you guys have issues and the age difference is a problem and blah, blah, blah. Like, you can't just sit there and be like, nope, I married my 12-year-old student, had babies, but we're perfect.
00:49:33
Speaker
Like, no. Ew. Like... And I think Vili would have talked about it more if she wasn't always around.
00:49:44
Speaker
Like, it seemed like she was always around. I think she was very present, even if she wasn't physically present. I think he was the beta of that relationship for sure.
00:49:56
Speaker
And Mary was very much the alpha and she called every single shot. And I think that he couldn't say much. So she got to present her narratives.
00:50:09
Speaker
I guess he could have said whatever he wanted, but I think he would have had to deal with a lot of consequences with that. At home. And I have seen speculation. Right. Like repercussion. And I don't know if there's any truth to this at all or if this was just like a suspicion of when they originally separated.
00:50:29
Speaker
Because he they separated and then he withdrew the filing and then they separated again. um and Part of that, like part of the rumor mill was that Billy wanted to open a marijuana store and he couldn't do that because he was married to a felon.
00:50:49
Speaker
And there was like restrictions, I guess, in California about getting a license to operate a marijuana store and that maybe they were just going to divorce on paper, essentially.
00:51:01
Speaker
And that there wasn't really a plan that. to actually divorce, which is possible. I think it's also possible that it wasn't about their age difference and there was other issues in their marriage.
00:51:15
Speaker
And maybe after the kids grew up and moved on, maybe they're also, you know, empty nesters, things happen. And I mean, when you're an empty nester in your very early forty s That's also late 30s. Right. I mean, you're in a different place at that point. And I think that plenty of people, you know, are married for a long time.
00:51:36
Speaker
Stuff doesn't work out. People grow apart. Things change. People cheat. You know, we want to we want to do things in different directions. It could have been anything. It maybe wasn't even about their age difference. But I agree. It's crazy to pretend that their age difference wasn't going to become a problem.
00:51:53
Speaker
If it already wasn't.
00:51:56
Speaker
Right. And they also self-proclaimed were going to couples therapy. In a lot of cases that I'm aware of, when you're going through couples counseling, a lot of time they recommend you doing personal therapy as well, like in conjunction.
00:52:13
Speaker
and um And I also wonder if thing he was going through this personal counseling and things started kind of clicking for him of Maybe.
00:52:24
Speaker
i mean, I think maybe there was a manipulation here and. it Maybe this isn't as of perfect love story as I have come to believe that it was.
00:52:37
Speaker
Definitely could be. i think. As her shine wore off. he probably felt resentful about things. And I've seen, i mean, the problem with Billy is he doesn't say much himself.
00:52:51
Speaker
There's a lot of a source close to him, a friend of the family, of clo whatever, an acquaintance of Billy. It's a lot of people speaking for Billy, even now, where I've seen sources say that he sees things clearly now and realize it wasn't a healthy relationship from the start. And, you know, basically that his perspective has changed.
00:53:13
Speaker
And that could happen for a bunch of reasons, but definitely in couples counseling, i would think that would be something that would be hard not to talk about.
00:53:23
Speaker
Right. So I'm sure maybe they had to talk about things that they hadn't talked about before. and But there was a reason that they went to couples counseling in the first place 10, 11, 12 years into being married.
00:53:36
Speaker
So I think that they probably had a lot of issues. And i do think... Oh, they had to because the reality is you are generationally different. You got into this relationship by manipulation.
00:53:49
Speaker
okay And I think when you have this situation of like, hey, I didn't get to do all these things, there's a resentment there. if you Even if you take out the child assault manipulation abuse it really is like even if they were the same age there could be resentment there because like you became an adult at basically 13. yeah and you are going to be able to live the same way or end up living the way you want or the dream or your dream has to start at 35 40.
00:54:27
Speaker
thirty five forty right which is a different avenue after having adult kids and dropping out of high school and having all these hardships and suffering in all these ways and being famous and not being able to have a normal life like he probably had a lot of resentments but i agree i think i honestly think if a 12 year old got another 12 year old pregnant they would have a lot of resentment towards each other as well, especially when you look 10, 20, 30 years into the future.
00:54:58
Speaker
Yeah, that messed up your life. Yeah, things are different. Yeah, now I'm stuck talking to this person that I knew when I was 12, and maybe I didn't have good decision-making skills then.
00:55:09
Speaker
Maybe I don't want this person in my life forever. And maybe your 12 year old doesn't make good decisions. Yeah. Maybe it's like they shouldn't be making them. that Maybe this is why this is a strict liability statue.
00:55:23
Speaker
Maybe this is why this was wrong from the get. And I think that yeah when things are still. When it's them against the world, when it's them raising their love children, when it's them being supported, when it's them, whatever, it's it's more fun.
00:55:40
Speaker
It's more romantic. It's more sexy.
Public Perception and Support for Letourneau
00:55:43
Speaker
And then when you're just living a boring life together with this old woman, I mean, yeah, it's going to wear off.
00:55:51
Speaker
Just reality, you know, sinks in. She's in her 50s. You're in her She's not hot anymore. Like, now what?
00:56:01
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And it's just, it's gotta be, it's gotta be awkward. And then also with the revamp of the new media craze, right? So before in the nineties, they were having a lot of support from outside people.
00:56:18
Speaker
And I think when you look at the media now, it's really zoning in on the fact that of this is illegal. This is sexual abuse. This is abuse of a child.
00:56:29
Speaker
Right. it's really zoning in on that aspect. So you know that they would have seen it, you know, he was exposed to it. So I wonder if that also played an impact because it has that shift of media presence from somewhat supportive to very, very against.
00:56:51
Speaker
Yeah. Although I do think that they still had supporters while they were still pretending to be happily married, especially when they present it that way. Especially people who, I don't wanna, you know, accuse a giant group of people of anything wrong, but I think maybe people who have their own proclivities and their own ethically questionable things that maybe they think about, maybe they wanna do, maybe they think is okay, and then they see someone living this life and saying, fuck you to the legal system,
00:57:28
Speaker
You're going support that. It's like, yeah, you go, Mary, you show them. 12 year olds have are cool too. Yeah. We should date them. I really feel like that's where a lot of her support came from.
00:57:43
Speaker
I think that was some of it. I don't think it was all of it. um older do Because like you said, she's very good at presenting this fantasy. um Versus also the people who tend to have these proclivities aren't super public about it.
00:58:02
Speaker
Yeah. And by publicly supporting her would have brought attention to themselves because after she, her case went through ah bunch of cases came to light of female teachers interacting with sexually with students.
00:58:20
Speaker
So, it I think there definitely was a portion of their support there, but I also think it was just this image that she managed to give off.
00:58:31
Speaker
And that between the two of their interviews, it comes off. If you just watch that... yeah It comes off like a love story. It comes off very supportive. It comes off like, you're right, let them live their life until you dig into it.
00:58:48
Speaker
And isn't that crazy? They'd already filed for separation and he'd withdrew it before that documentary was filmed. And then they separated again after that.
00:58:59
Speaker
And that is not the vibe that you get from them. together. This is a glowing love story. well yeah It's not just that documentary. It's the majority of interviews they did.
00:59:15
Speaker
It's crazy. yeah and I used to feel like I was in the minority, honestly, of people that felt like she was a monster.
00:59:27
Speaker
um i feel like that opinion has become more popular and these newer times, which I love, but I... have always felt this way that she ultimate I ultimately just feel like she ruined his life and you can ruin a man's life but when you ruin a child's life I just think that that's wrong and I just think that she got way too much different yeah way too much slack I think she was given. I think she was given too much credit. i think she was given too much access to her kids.
00:59:58
Speaker
I think that she was allowed way too close to schools. I think maybe if Vili had gotten bored with her sooner and she had not spent as much time in prison and she had been able to teach, oh my God, then this would have happened again.
01:00:12
Speaker
I actually don't think there was anything special about Vili or her. I think that this was ah crime of opportunity. And ah delusional narrative that after getting caught was even more important to stay with it.
01:00:27
Speaker
And when you're 12, you could think you're in love for sure. But I think that this was a grown woman manipulating a child's emotions because of her own deficits.
01:00:38
Speaker
And I think that it just gave him no, it took away all his opportunities in life, which he could have maybe broken out of, but it would have been very difficult to do.
01:00:51
Speaker
Yeah. Now, I agree that I think she definitely took advantage of a child. um I do think she is more, and this is just a personal pet peeve of mine, where the term child molester and pedophile get used interchangeably. Yeah.
01:01:09
Speaker
I think she definitely was more of a child molester, which basically is an individual who uses a child for sexual reputation, using sexual gratification, emotional gratification for themselves from the child versus a pedophile.
01:01:25
Speaker
That actually, it's a DSM term um where that adult has to have like long-term reoccurring fantasies of a prepubescent child.
01:01:38
Speaker
And you can actually be diagnosed with that. Sure. So for her, I think it definitely came more to the emotional power, the power over the person, the control.
01:01:53
Speaker
the i think for her, just from different avenues, is it was more about the feelings that she got and the power that she had, the excuse of not...
01:02:07
Speaker
it not applying to her than it was sexual. I think the sexual part for her was just an added bonus. And I don't think she necessarily was having all of these previous thoughts. And there were experts during her trial that did...
01:02:23
Speaker
test her and interview her and they didn't find pedophilia but again it's it's a hard thing to diagnose um i think she wanted the control and sexual exploitation and the health and the welfare from the child and not so much about this whole planned fantasy that she had i think that she blurred lines and convinced herself that it was okay and lived in this delusion.
01:02:54
Speaker
Yeah. I, I agree. I'm going to take back that I said she was a pedophile. I think that she is just a regular rapist. I think a child rapist.
01:03:05
Speaker
Yeah. um Because i I agree. I don't think it was about, that's what I mean though. I don't think it had anything to do with Billy. I think that she saw a situation... I it was this delusion she made.
01:03:17
Speaker
It's delusion. It's a series of choices that she made. And it's the power that she
Psychological Aspects and Societal Implications
01:03:22
Speaker
felt from it. And the sex was part of it, but I agree. I don't think that's the main part of it. And I don't think that's usually the main part of it when it comes to rape. I think it's more...
01:03:30
Speaker
power, control, proving that you can, proving that you can do anything, that you don't have consequences, that everyone just lives to serve you, basically.
01:03:41
Speaker
And I think that
01:03:45
Speaker
I that's what I that's why I hesitate to say that you know that maybe I feel differently and now because Billy feels differently about it I don't I feel the same about it because I feel like it never had anything to do with Billy and that he was just a victim of the situation and I don't think that I think that this could have happened again and in an other situations Like, I think if she'd gotten away with it this time, hadn't gotten pregnant, whatever, this would have, this could have and would have continued.
01:04:13
Speaker
Maybe not kids. I'm not sure. but I think if the opportunity presented itself.
01:04:22
Speaker
I don't know if she would do it again. Well, thankfully she's dead. and Right, she can't now. Oh, so good. But I think that there was something that she zoned in on with him and In our grooming episode, we did talk about like these predators find something and they zone in and and that's your weakness. That's your vulnerability. That's your access point. Right.
01:04:49
Speaker
And i think she found that with him and kind of latched on and kind of rolled with it really. yeah,
01:05:01
Speaker
why Why do you need others? Like she just, I don't know. I think there definitely was some kind of other psychiatric issue because she really lived in this delusion of herself and this la-la land.
01:05:14
Speaker
Well, she was diagnosed with bipolar at one point during her prison stay and she was on medications. um But I don't know if that diagnosis really stuck.
01:05:26
Speaker
She was psychologically evaluated ah bunch of times and there different... findings um i would say definitely delusions of grandeur is her main symptom i'm not sure what diagnosis she has but she was not mentally well
01:05:48
Speaker
she was yeah not capable of living in the same place as everyone else
01:05:54
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think we covered most of the two of them. It was kind of all over the place. Yeah. but I mean, I hope this was somewhat enjoyable to listen to, but i I feel like there's so many... I've listened to so many podcasts going through like...
01:06:10
Speaker
the trial and the whatever and it's like it's been beaten to death and I feel like this was just like kind of nice to just talk about and it's such an interesting case and it's so niche for our podcast and I just it is interesting to hear your like criminal justice like perspectives on it um and I just don't know this sort one of my favorite cases so I'm always happy to talk about it
01:06:36
Speaker
Yeah. No, I just, I think what I struggle with is like knowing a little bit more about how like sex offenders are, tried and sentenced and things that I wish the idea of like they go to they go to court and then it's all done and they don't talk to their victims and like yeah I hope I didn't present the idea that like this is expected but I hate to say it but like it's not abnormal and that's what's so sad is there's not a ton of protections out there to really enforce there's no contact right like restraining words for example like huge pet peeve mine
01:07:17
Speaker
Absolutely. Someone can violate a restraining order and they go, oh, no. And that's it. like Exactly. And it's one of those things is like I wish the court system did a better job at protecting the victims. I wish they did a better job of following through of like, hey, we're going to hold you until court or like ankle monitors or whatever the case is.
01:07:39
Speaker
But unfortunately, it just doesn't work out that way most of the time. I think also with someone like Mary, who is extremely manipulative, extremely intelligent as well, she was always going to be able to find loopholes. She was always going to be find able to find ways around things.
01:07:57
Speaker
And there really are no laws that can protect everyone from someone like that. It's a devious person. Yeah. I just don't like that she is somehow looked at differently because of her appearance.
01:08:12
Speaker
That to me is infuriating. And I like to look at her as like a yeah creepy middle-aged man. So common. Yeah. So common. and So unfortunate. And that's not even just female sex offenders. That is just females in general.
01:08:25
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. They tend to get a lot lighter sentences, a lot easier to manipulate the system. That is changing. um but But male sex offenders don't get enough time either.
01:08:39
Speaker
Male sex offenders also go out back on the street, also get in touch with their victims, also continue to harass and abuse people. There are so many people who have been convicted of sex crimes that that through loopholes figure out how to reintegrate into society and get back with their victim, get new victims. It's unfortunately such a huge problem that I don't know how a court system could possibly prevent all of it.
01:09:07
Speaker
I mean, other than yeah detaining them permanently, which has its own issues. But... i I mean, I think that the amount of time that Mary did was beneficial for society in many ways.
01:09:23
Speaker
i think that for Billy, it was ultimately better that he was in he was 21 when she got out of prison. he was an adult and he went to the courts and he asked for the restraining order to be dropped.
01:09:38
Speaker
That is an adult making a decision. Whether or not he came to that decision because of childhood abuse, a lot of people make bad decisions as adults because of abuse, because of terrible things that they've endured.
01:09:49
Speaker
You still get to make your decisions. So if he at that point decided, I want the restraining order dropped, there's literally nothing that the court can do at that point. Because all of the points against them, because this was not a violent rape.
01:10:03
Speaker
This was statutory. And people grow up and marry their statutory rapists all the time. This is not uncommon. This is just weird because it's an older woman and a younger boy and because of all the circumstances involved.
01:10:19
Speaker
So I think that I would have preferred her be in prison for life. In my opinion, I think that's what she deserved. I think that Vili was a victim and that his family and the media exacerbated that.
01:10:36
Speaker
But at the same time, I'm not really sure why more sentence, like other than just putting her in prison forever, i don't know that there's anything else anybody could have done.
01:10:51
Speaker
There are some people who believe that sex offender therapy works, um that would be the alternative argument that ah I think people might suggest is you can get treatment and not be a sex offender anymore. um yeah they' It's very controversial and I'm not even going to go down that rabbit hole because it will be another hour in. You know, i do think that would be a great episode talking about like women and Well, we can talk about in general sex offender therapy and whatever.
01:11:26
Speaker
and know they did try that with Mary. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think they lasted like a, they didn't even go into it with her because she refused to cooperate. Well, she wanted to bring her baby. That was part her original sentence. Yeah.
01:11:38
Speaker
Yeah. She wanted to bring her baby. she was like, how many men in your program have just given birth?
01:11:46
Speaker
her voice yeah But again, using her gender to manipulate the situation. so Yeah, well, she would use anything to manipulate it. Any final thoughts for Miss Mary?
01:11:58
Speaker
I hope that Billy is doing well. He has a new child um named Sophia. He's pretty private. I don't know who his current partner is, if they're still together.
01:12:09
Speaker
couldn't really find much about that. But he... is alive well has three kids now and both of their children together have babies now one is pregnant one has a baby so they're grandparents and i hope that everything is good with them how about you any final thoughts
01:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think, I hope the best for Billy. I do. i think he's got a lot of emotional stuff to unpack if he hasn't already. um But I honestly think I focus on a little bit more of both of their children.
01:12:50
Speaker
um Particularly with the resurface of this case and the media outrage that came couple years ago and even currently. Mm-hmm. Their children are very involved in interviews that they're not actually a part of.
01:13:08
Speaker
their Their children, all six of them, are very public. You can figure out who they are very easily. So I hope that they are doing okay and they're adjusting to the comments that they're probably receiving um because the internet is mean and absolutely teenagers and 20-year-olds are mean.
01:13:30
Speaker
Absolutely. I've been mean on here as well. so i I ah do apologize if any you will turn out or if you allow kids are listening, but I do stand by it. and it's It's all an opinion. i think it's just more of the fact of like they had no control over what happened and what they were born into. And I just hope that they're taking care of their selves and their mental health and what comes along with that.
01:13:55
Speaker
being the children of a child and their teacher um yeah so i think those they're the ones that i would hope the best for and i mean obviously no i don't want that for billy and i don't want that for anybody else but at this point with the second wave of media they're the ones that i think are going to take the most heat
01:14:21
Speaker
Yes. That's my only thought. No, no, no. I agree. And I and i do think that the Letourneau kids, it was nice that you included them in that because I do think that they get kind of you know thrown out with the bathwater here when they were so, so, so deeply impacted by this happening.
01:14:39
Speaker
Their family falling apart, their mother going to prison, her losing custody of them. I mean, that is horrifically traumatic. And I also could understand wanting to ultimately have a relationship with her still and her husband and their kids. I mean, this is still your family at the end of the day.
01:14:58
Speaker
So I have a lot of empathy for them. Yeah. But not for Mary.
01:15:04
Speaker
Right. Yeah. No, Mary... good riddance yeah i mean bye but no it's not honestly it's not it's not she's an unrepentant and awful in my opinion obviously these are just our opinions but i stand by them yes and i think that we can leave off here and pick back up next week with our next mom yes talk to you next time bye