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S5E12: (Rebroadcast) On Identity and Serving as a US District Judge, with Hon. Zahid Quraishi RLAW'00
51 Plays8 months ago
REBROADCAST:
Hon. Zahid Quraishi joins Co-Dean Rose Cuison-Villazor to discuss his career starting from Rutgers Law School through his time as a United States magistrate judge and eventually a district judge of the US District Court for the District of New Jersey.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Introduction of Judge Za Karashi
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello, this is Rose Quizan Villazor, the interim co-dean of Rutgers Law School, and you are listening to the power of attorney. Today, I have the distinct honor of speaking with the Honorable Federal District Judge, Za Karashi. Judge Karashi is a 2000 graduate of Rutgers Law School. Judge, thank you so much for making time for me today.
00:00:29
Speaker
No, thank you, Rose, for having me. And I presume I'll have to refer to you as Dean Crizan-Dolazur because I know this is a more formal podcast, but it's great seeing you, even a more formal setting. And thanks for having me on.
00:00:40
Speaker
Well, thank you,
Identity and Influence
00:00:41
Speaker
Judge. So I'd like to start these conversations by asking the interviewee about their origin story. So tell me a little bit about your origin story by this. I want you to talk about, if you want, about your identity, what motivates you. So let's start there. All right, well.
00:01:03
Speaker
Well, my identity, you know, it's interesting. So Dean, I think that in some ways that's a loaded question because it depends on kind of where the question is coming from. But look, I identify as an American. I was born in New York, raised in New Jersey. So I consider myself a Jersey guy, even though technically I was born in New York City and moved to New Jersey when I was a year old.
00:01:22
Speaker
But I'm also Pakistani American. My parents were born in Pakistan, so I'm first generation born in the United States, as you well know. I'm a father of two. I'm Muslim, so recently I think folks have identified me by religion in a lot of ways. I think primarily based on my historical nomination when I became a district judge.
00:01:41
Speaker
And I'm also a veteran. So I think there's a bunch of different ways I identify, depending on the focus of the question. But I did grow up in New Jersey from immigrant parents from Pakistan. And that really, I think, is the beginnings of who I am and why I am the way I am is really from them. I think your response shows that there's a lot about you that connects with many different people.
Trailblazing Judge
00:02:05
Speaker
So for me, for example, I'm an immigrant.
00:02:07
Speaker
From that perspective, the connection with your parents as immigrants, that's important to me. And I think for many of our listeners are first gen students, first gen law school applicants, and first gen alumni. And so there's that connection.
00:02:23
Speaker
I should have said this in the beginning. Judge, for those who are listening, Judge Karachi is the first Muslim American federal district judge in the country. And before he became a federal district judge, he was a federal magistrate judge in New Jersey and became the first Asian American judge to sit on the bench here in New Jersey. So there's a lot of firsts there that I'd like for us to explore later. But let me go back to
Upbringing and Assimilation
00:02:51
Speaker
your upbringing in New Jersey. Tell me about what it was like to grow up in New Jersey with immigrant parents. For me, I don't know if you know the Union County area, but I grew up in Fanwood, New Jersey, which is a small town. In fact, it shares the same school district as Scotch Plain. That's where I grew up. I will tell you back in the
00:03:11
Speaker
you know, late 70s, early 80s while I was growing up in the town, it was not as diverse as it is now. So there were very few folks that looked like my parents or me. In fact, the two other kids growing up, they were not Pakistani and they were not Muslim, right? So even though, you know, sometimes South Asians kind of get grouped together, I think we all know as we get older, there's significant differences by religion and by ethnicity. So for me, that was different, right? Growing up in a primarily white town,
00:03:39
Speaker
in Fairwood, New Jersey. But my assimilation, it's interesting, and I don't know if we'll get into this, but one of my, not really hobbies, I think I was very passionate about it as a child was sports, specifically soccer. And the town I grew up in happened to be
00:03:56
Speaker
a quote-unquote soccer town. And so I fell in love with this sport, and it really helped me to assimilate because through athletics and through being in a team sport, you made friends. And you really ended up finding, I think, more focus on the similarities you had with other kids rather than the differences. And so, you know, even though I was the child at McDonald's getting the fish fillet sandwich while my buddies were eating cheeseburgers and Big Macs,
00:04:23
Speaker
When I was growing up, we would only eat halal, so my parents wouldn't let me try other things at McDonald's. We didn't focus on those things because we were all at McDonald's together. And we had this common interest in excelling in a sport that our community really cared about. And so for me, I think part of my upbringing and part of the lessons I've learned in life, kind of winning with grace and also learning how to lose, those early lessons that are difficult for children to learn,
00:04:49
Speaker
I was able to learn a lot of that in that culture of soccer and playing sports on a team and being, I think, part of something larger than yourself, right? And so, but that was mostly my upbringing. I spent every season playing that sport, you know, torturing my parents to let me travel outside of the state, sometimes outside of the country to play in tournaments. But they allowed me to do it. They knew that I really cared about it. I clearly was not good enough to play professionally or to do soccer and gave it up.
00:05:17
Speaker
But I think if you asked a lot of folks about my childhoods, that sport would take up a large part of it. So since you brought up sports, this came up during lunch just earlier today. In many kids these days who are participants in sports, everyone gets a trophy. What was
Values from Youth
00:05:40
Speaker
that? I mean, did you get a trophy all the time when you were growing up?
00:05:44
Speaker
No, so I will tell you, I think the culture was a little bit different and it's funny because I have two children as you well know, a little tougher on them with some of these changes I think that I've seen in kind of the sport culture. But no, look, I will tell you that there were no participation trophies when I was growing up.
00:06:01
Speaker
would win first or second place or you went home empty handed. And look, I will tell you that was difficult. I think I learned some hard lessons as a kid because not everything was given to you. You could compete competitively and when you're young and you're emotional and you're not mature enough to adjust to winning and losing, I can tell you that as a child, there were days where I'd walk off the field crying and I got second place.
00:06:25
Speaker
The team was in the finals, we won a trophy, and we would be in tears because we didn't win. And I think, look, part of that is growing up and learning how to lose with grace and accepting that you're not perfect and that you have to learn to fail so that you can really appreciate your successes.
00:06:42
Speaker
I think sometimes with my children, I have to step in to teach them those lessons. So when, you know, my son was playing baseball and their team was in second to last place and he got a trophy at the end of the season, I did not put that trophy on the mantle. Josh, that's so mean. I did not. I told him when he earns a trophy, we'll put it up in display, but this way he can just go in and draw in his trophy.
00:07:04
Speaker
So I might be a little bit tough on my kids because of my upbringing, but I will tell you, I thought that we learned very valuable lessons in life because as you get older, accepting, even in the legal profession, even when you're in college, not getting the grade that you thought you were entitled to, or maybe you get rejected from a job that you were hoping that you would get, a lot of those lessons on rejection and loss, I think you can learn at an earlier age. And for me, athletics was really the,
00:07:31
Speaker
The way I learned I think a lot of those kind of tougher life lessons when I was younger and I think it really stayed with me when I was older where I Could could accept, you know accountability and failures and successes I think easier than maybe others who didn't grow up, you know playing a sport competitively. So
00:07:48
Speaker
Yeah, no, as a mother of two also with them who they didn't do a lot of sports, but they were definitely involved in other competitive, you know, events. And it's hard because it's a different culture. And I always had to say, you know, it's it's okay to, to not be number one, that's that is part of our growth. And, and it's, you learn a lot from not getting from not winning this debate or for
00:08:16
Speaker
not getting the part that you wanted in this particular show. I hear you, but in the classroom, certainly. You were one of our professors at Rutgers Law School, and we assigned the grades that we believe the students have earned, and there's
00:08:36
Speaker
a lot of, there's some heartaches that come with that. Well, let me, I wanna explore a little bit college-like, because you mentioned college. So I know you went to the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, where you received a Bachelor of Arts.
Education and Career Choices
00:08:50
Speaker
Why did you choose to go to John Jay College? Yeah, so my father, who's no longer alive, but he was a significant influence to me, not only in my younger years, but as a young adult. And so I had an interest, I think early on, as I remember it, in law enforcement.
00:09:06
Speaker
And my father, who was not a lawyer, he was a physician, he really didn't understand the legal profession. So I really had to kind of navigate all of this, whether it was criminal justice or law school or the legal profession, more on my own because it was foreign to him. But he had a lot of patients that were in law enforcement and he knew that John Jay had a very strong criminal justice program. And so he had recommended that I consider that school because he thought it might nurture this interest that I had. When I was younger,
00:09:34
Speaker
Like I said before, all I did was play soccer for so many years. Between the ages of five and 17, that took up a large portion of my life. And so to kind of give that up in a reboot and to find a new interest, I think my father was trying to make sure that I gravitated to something that would encourage it. And so John Jay seemed like a natural school. It was in the area because I was from here. And so I went to school in Manhattan for four years to gain my criminal justice degree.
00:10:01
Speaker
That was the real catalyst, is that I had an interest in law enforcement and this seemed like a good fit to kind of build off of that interest to see if this was really something that I should be pursuing. I'm struck by the fact that you said your dad suggested John Jay College and then you listened to him. It sounds like you and your dad had a good relationship.
00:10:21
Speaker
Yeah, so we were close. I mean, I will tell you, as a teenager and as a younger kid, I'm sure I pushed the envelope a bit like any other American kid growing up here, especially when you have immigrant parents, right? So they're struggling with two kind of cultural worlds clashing on a daily basis, right? And that's who I was because I was completely Americanized when I was born here. And my parents, you know, really tried to build off of that. You know, they only spoke English in the home.
00:10:47
Speaker
They never spoke Urdu or any other dialect because they wanted to only speak English they wanted to have me immersed in American culture but that comes with some downsides and so I obviously was a little bit of a rebellious teenager but my father was always close.
00:11:02
Speaker
as my closest counselor, and I trusted him with a lot of important decisions. And it didn't mean that the decisions were not mine to make, but I always sought out his counsel, and that was one of them. In fact, we'll get to this, but me ultimately not going into law enforcement immediately, but pursuing law school was also strongly suggested by my father because I was doing well academically. And my father thought,
00:11:29
Speaker
Why pursue a career in law enforcement right away? Why not see what other opportunities might be available, get an advanced degree in the law, and if law enforcement was still something I wanted to do, then by all means, pursue it. But you're young and you don't even know all the opportunities that are out there. So why not pursue a higher degree and keep those opportunities available to you? So he ultimately influenced me not to pursue a career in law enforcement immediately, but to apply to law school, which I did. And lucky us.
00:11:59
Speaker
Lucky as you ended up, you chose to come to Rutgers Law School. Now, I'm going to ask you questions about that. I'm sure some of your former students might be listening here to try to better understand you as a professor.
Rutgers Experience
00:12:13
Speaker
Tell us about your experience at Rutgers Law School. What was it like? Tell me about orientation. When you walked in,
00:12:19
Speaker
Oh, you were at the other building, right? I was at the old building, but I will tell you, my class, so I was the class of 2000, so that's going to age me a bit with anyone younger that might listen to this podcast, but my last semester in law school was in the new building. I will tell you, we resisted it. We were so used to the law school that we had, and if you were on journal, it was very private, it wasn't very open. There were all these little nooks and offices where students, you know, student-run organizations had the privacy they wanted.
00:12:46
Speaker
So we were opposed to moving to the new building and begged to graduate in the law school that we were in, even though, as we all know, the facilities in the new building are wonderful, and it's great for the school, and it's great for the student body, but we're creatures of habit, and so we resisted, but as the administration would tell you, we didn't have a choice. It's time to move over to the new building, and we did.
00:13:07
Speaker
I started off down the street on Washington, but ultimately I did graduate from the current law school that the students now attend. And look, for me, Rutgers offered me a lot of the opportunities I was looking for. First of all, it had a wonderful reputation as a law school at the time that I was applying, and it still does today. In fact, I think the reputation has been
00:13:27
Speaker
enhanced over time, and that's great. But it had a great reputation for a top notch education in the law. It had a reasonable tuition because it was a state university, and it kept me in the area that I knew, even though I was not clear on what I was going to do with this law degree,
00:13:43
Speaker
Dean, it kept me in the New York, New Jersey area. And I was from Jersey, and I wanted to be in this area. So it really offered me a great education at a top price and in an area that I wanted to be in. And so that kind of gravitated me to Rutgers, and that's ultimately why I applied and why I selected to go to law school.
00:14:01
Speaker
And to answer your question, first aid orientation, I mean, I'm at a loss, right? You know, I wish, in hindsight, going from high school to college to law school is not ideal. And as an adjunct, when I teach, you always see the difference between folks that are, you know, they've been employed for a few years and then come into law school, or if you're teaching the weekend students who
00:14:20
Speaker
are going to law school part-time, that level of maturity, that type of life experience I didn't have, I was straight through. And so, look, my first year was a difficult transition in that you have to learn a lot, you have to rethink how you're thinking as a student, right? Because they're trying to teach you how to think like a lawyer, which is different than my college experience.
00:14:43
Speaker
But also a part of it was college plus. So I met folks at orientation, friends that I would have for the next three years of law school and beyond. And to me, my experience at Rutgers was a very positive experience, which is why I think I'm committed to always come back. When you ask me, hey, do you want to do the podcast?
00:15:01
Speaker
I don't know how many times I've even said no to Rutgers, but also equally to Seton Hall since we have two New Jersey law schools. But, you know, I graduated from Rutgers. And so I think because of my positive experience, I'm always quick to return to see if I can do a little bit to add back some of that goodwill for the next generation. And, you know, we appreciate it. I was vice dean when I needed professors to come
00:15:26
Speaker
teach trial skills classes. And those classes, we have full-time faculty who teach those courses, but we don't have enough of them. And it's even more important for us to hire judges, lawyers, those in the US Attorney's Office. I mean, really practitioners who can come to Rutgers and teach our students what it's really like to be in a trial or to do depositions, to do alternative dispute resolution.
00:15:53
Speaker
I remember reaching out to you saying, would you be open to teaching for us? And you said yes. And then the pandemic happened. And then I said, well, so are you still interested in teaching? I get it. I understand if you don't want to. And you still said yes.
00:16:09
Speaker
My students were so grateful to you because you gave them that experience. There was Zoom experience, and then there was an in-person experience. So thanks so much for doing that. And then you became federal district judge, so you didn't have as much time anymore. And as you know, whenever you want to come back, judge, we'd love to have you.
00:16:29
Speaker
I appreciate that. For me, I will tell you, coming back to the school to teach trial presentation was, well, I'm not going to take credit, but the students should know. Two of my incoming law clerks were students of mine in my trial presentation class that did an outstanding job. When they were looking for clerkships, and this is how the legal community operates, maybe they didn't realize it, but they were on a 15-week interview without knowing it. Both of them were selected, and I won't put them on the spot and name them, but two of your
00:16:57
Speaker
Two of your students will be clerking for me at the end of August this year, and both of them were in my separate trial presentation classes. So not only is it an opportunity for me to give back to the school, but I think it exposes the student body to some of the judges. And you really don't know where those relationships will go. Sometimes they build a mentorship type relationship where you end up continuing to have communication with the student. Sometimes you can end up getting a clerkship out of it.
00:17:26
Speaker
So they should probably thank you for bringing me on, but I thought it was worth noting that it was not only a positive experience for me to try to get back, but I got something in return. I got two outstanding law clerks that are going to start later this year that come out of Rutgers Law School and specifically out of my trial presentation class. So I think if you have any students that are before any judges over there at Rutgers, they should be mindful that
00:17:50
Speaker
You're on a 15-week interview. You have no idea if it's just about a grade or it could be about future employment. And I would strongly encourage them to give it everything they've got and to put into that class what they would put into any full-time or part-time class, because you just don't know where it might lead. All right. Well, so and yes, I'm really excited about for those students. I'd like to know what you were like as a student. So what was your favorite class?
00:18:19
Speaker
It's interesting if I say it now, you're gonna say no way, but I really love legal research and writing. So I think everyone finds their own area that...
Legal Prowess Development
00:18:29
Speaker
Not only do they have strengths in, but you end up gravitating, I think, to areas that you're stronger in because you're successful and you feel good about the product. For me, I really love my legal research and writing class. I ended up doing well. I ended up becoming a TA in my third year to give back to that class assigned to a professor.
00:18:50
Speaker
I work for my legal research and writing professor as a one L summer job to make some money. And that also led me to do a write on to get onto the computer and tech law journal. I did the write on in my first year where I was selected to the moot court board. And so for me,
00:19:07
Speaker
You know, I think in hindsight, I appreciate how much that did for me, right? That I was interested in that area. And so, you know, you end up building on those writing and research skills. And later on, when you're looking for employment, a lot of folks will look to that area to see, well, what were you doing in legal research and writing? Were you honing those skills? Were you doing things at law school to advance that? But that's kind of where the area, I think the area that I enjoyed the most, even though it was painful.
00:19:33
Speaker
Right? And it was stressful at times, you know, writing briefs, especially when this was all fairly new to us as law students. But I always encourage students at Rutgers that if they ask me, you know, what else can I do? And I said, take advantage of the opportunities at the school. I mean, one is a lot of legal research and writing, whether it's journal or moot court board or taking an advocacy course. But the other is the clinics. I mean, the public service, I think, that Rutgers promotes with its student body is second to none. And I think
00:20:03
Speaker
It really gives students an opportunity to understand, well, what are all the different things that you can do with a law degree rather than just you get a law degree, you go to a law firm. And I don't discourage that. I think that's one avenue for the students at Rutgers, but it's definitely not the only one. And I think Rutgers does a very good job of exposing the student body to a variety of different opportunities so that they can choose what's the best fit for them.
00:20:26
Speaker
But that was my area. And like I said, I had a very positive experience with my student, like when I was a student at Rutgers and just the friendships that I made along the way. And I think that's part of what gravitates me back to the school. And then what about, were there any classes that you didn't like? You know, just so like I teach property law, but I hated property law in law school. I could not stand it. It wasn't until my third year when I did Landlord Tenant Clinic,
00:20:56
Speaker
that I realized, gosh, property law is so important. But I remember hating property, and it was a year-long course for me in my 1L year.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think—I don't know if there's a class I hated necessarily. I mean, look, in your first year, it's a curriculum, right? You're not really—you have no discretion on what courses you take. I will say this, though. I gravitated more towards, you know, constitutional law and criminal law because I found them more interesting. And some of the case law was a little more sexy and exciting to read than, say, some of the contract cases
00:21:28
Speaker
some of the tort cases. But I don't think I hated any class, but I think every student, you know, I think gravitates to a particular area of interest. And for some people, it might be contracts, it might be torts and it might be property. So I wouldn't want to kind of influence that in any way. But I think for me, it was more criminal law and constitutional law. And even at the time that I found it interesting, I still had no idea what I was going to be doing with my career until well after I graduated law school. But I think in hindsight, those were the areas I found
00:21:58
Speaker
more appealing to me, if that makes sense. All right, well, that's fair. So you graduated in 2000, which actually, by the way, is the year I graduated also from law school. So we're both older, young, depending on where you're talking to, right? And so after you graduated, you clerked for the New Jersey Supreme Court judge, Edmund Stern. Yes. What kind of cases did he handle and what kind of issues did you work
Early Career and Reputation
00:22:21
Speaker
on?
00:22:21
Speaker
Sure. So just briefly, Judge Cern was in the appellate division when I clerked for him. He was elevated to the Supreme Court later when I think there was a vacancy and he was the presiding judge of the appellate division, but that was after my time that I clerked for him. But I'll make one note just because I think this is also important and I might as well say, I interned my 1L summer for Judge Cern.
00:22:41
Speaker
And what I ended up doing is the law clerk at the time who was with him, you know, was like requiring no less than four days in chambers. And I also wanted to work for my legal research and writing professor, as I mentioned. So I did both those jobs. But let me tell you, I think it's important for students to know this because I've spoken about this before.
00:23:01
Speaker
That summer internship that was for free, that four days a week where I busted my hump, ultimately led me to a clerkship because in my second year, I wanted to bend the ear of Judge Stern to get his guidance on a few things. One, where he thought I might want to apply and two, whether he thought the clerkship would be worthwhile based on kind of what I had been doing and where I was going. And I remember meeting with him and he ended up saying to me,
00:23:25
Speaker
So do you want the job? And I said, I'm sorry, what? And he says, Zai, I've known you. You worked for me for an entire summer. You broke your butt four days a week.
00:23:35
Speaker
do you want to come clerk for me? And I said, if that's a legitimate offer, I'll accept it right here now. And that's how I ended up getting my clerkship. That's amazing. Right? So I will tell you that experience I just want to mention because I think it's important about, well, how did you even get that clerkship? And sometimes doing these, some people think, well, I'm working for free and I'm not being paid. I tell everyone, you treat that job like you're getting paid $3,000 a week because
00:24:02
Speaker
You gotta have pride in your work and you also don't know where it's gonna lead and you wanna build your reputation. And that reputation starts in law school. It doesn't begin 10 years out, right? You start building a reputation for who you are and what type of work product you're gonna deliver and how you're gonna be when no one's watching, right? All those things, that reputation's built in law school. You don't wait till you graduate. So I just wanna make that note, Dean, because I think it's important for folks to know how I got it.
00:24:29
Speaker
The other thing I'll say is Judge Stern was just a tremendous human being. So he was unbelievably kind as a judge. You know, talk about judicial temperament. Just unbelievably nice to everybody, but he was also brilliant. I mean, he literally could pull a reporter off the shelf. You need to look at 32 NJ 186.
00:24:47
Speaker
which was the pinpoint page for a Supreme Court case in New Jersey that was on point for an issue that I would be dealing with. And so he had that type of mind, but he was also very kind to everyone that worked with him and everybody in the courthouse. And I will tell you, it was my first exposure to the judiciary, right? As a 1L summer in college, I never did anything with the court system. This was my first exposure. It taught me, I think, a lot about
00:25:15
Speaker
And at the time, I didn't know I wanted to be a judge, but when I think about it now as a judge, what kind of judge do you want to be? How do you want to be with the folks that are around you and constantly trying to learn and improve? He educated himself. He didn't memorize those cases because he had a photographic memory. He would constantly read and be educated.
00:25:35
Speaker
I will tell you, it was a wonderful experience. I may be biased, but I always strongly encourage students to consider clerkships, judicial clerkships, whether at the state trial level, appellate or Supreme Court, or even the federal trial or appellate level, because I think it's a unique opportunity that you can't always get. And it's early in your career, but I also appreciate financial restrictions, and some people may not be able to afford to do that for a year or so after law school. But if you can,
00:26:02
Speaker
all things being equal, I strongly encourage students to consider the opportunity because you not only get a nice experience of kind of unvailing the kind of the demystifying the process, right, of working in the court system, you can have a mentor for life. You know, Judge Stern, I've known my entire career and it's been very, I think,
00:26:22
Speaker
a positive experience for me to have a judge in my corner to bounce ideas off of, to get advice, and all the rest of it. So I put that out there for your clerkship folks that unless there's a real reason not to do it, I would strongly consider they think about it. We just did a panel recently at Rutgers, as you know, with Justice Rabner and some other folks from the state judiciary, and also I was there from the federal judiciary.
00:26:46
Speaker
to talk about the positive experience and what we think a clerkship could bring to the table. And it was well attended and I appreciate Rutgers putting that together because I thought it was an important message for the students. Yeah, I'm 100% with you on that. I clerked after law school and it was the best job I've had. To this day, I'm really good friends with my judge. I go to him for advice on anything because the judge just looks out for you. He has no agenda.
00:27:13
Speaker
If I want an honest answer about an issue or how I should answer a question on a personal level with respect to future jobs and other issues, he's always there to just listen and guide me. That's part of what you get from, as you're saying, from a clerkship. It's a lifelong mentorship.
00:27:37
Speaker
relationship with this judge. I have an intense relationship, right? I mean, you have, you're working with a judge for at least a year, like pretty much every day, interacting with the judge, you know, often. So look, it's a close relationship. I, you know, I encourage it, but at the same time, I think part of the reason why I encourage it is now that I'm a judge, I still remember what my experience was like, as you do, right? As a law clerk and how positive that was for us. So, but I put that out there just because I think it's important.
00:28:06
Speaker
Yeah. So then after you clerked, you decided you went into private practice, but then somewhere, so you didn't stay there very long because then you decided to join the
Military Service After 9/11
00:28:17
Speaker
military. Right. So yeah, I started at La Bofflam Pina Macrae on September 11, 2001. So everybody knows in my
00:28:28
Speaker
In our generation, where we were on September 11th, I was filling out direct deposit forms and signing policies for the Buffalo and Green and McCray. Look, I went to that firm. The firm no longer exists, but it was a very prestigious law firm at the time. I didn't know exactly what I was going to do with my
00:28:48
Speaker
law degree. So I thought the clerkship and then going to a very large law firm seemed like a good idea at the time. I was going to be making a significant amount of money. I was shocked at what the salaries were back in 2000. Now I'm shocked when I see what my law clerks make.
00:29:04
Speaker
But look, it was a good opportunity. I didn't know exactly what I would do. But I will tell you, I think that day had a tremendous impact on me, not just because as an American we were attacked on September 11th, but I'm a Muslim American too. And I think the aftermath of 9-11 triggered, I think,
00:29:22
Speaker
something in me that I was going to go serve. And so in 2002, I applied to the U.S. Army JAG Corps. And in 2003, I was accepted into the Officer Basic Corps. So I probably was at La Buffalo, I'm Green and McCray, no more than a year and a half.
00:29:37
Speaker
But already within a year, I'd applied to the Army and then it took a little longer for me to get in the OBC, the Officer Basic Court. So that was the reason why I think people, when they first looked at my resume later, they would say, oh, you went to law school, then the Army, then you clerked. And I said, no. I was at law school, then I clerked, then I went to LeBeouf, then I left for the Army. And I think when they hear that, they always want to ask me about it. But that was the order, and that's why I ended up
00:30:04
Speaker
leaving, but it changed the trajectory of my entire career and my life. Because my time in the military, which would take too long to cover in this podcast, had a significant impact on me. When I left the military, when I was audibly discharged, I wanted to remain in public service and continue to serve my country as a civilian. So it ended up really changing the trajectory of my legal career, and I think me personally in a way. So it was very important to me. But yep, that's where I went after LaBeouf.
00:30:34
Speaker
We have a lot of students here who are veterans or so actively serving. And I'm always, I have such deep aberration for the kind of work that service men and women do in general, but then also while they're in law school. And you said that your time in the military made an impact and you can just share maybe one story or one,
00:31:02
Speaker
an issue that you dealt with at the time that affected the trajectory of your career? Yeah, sure. So just so I'm clear, I was a military judge advocate, which really means you're a military lawyer. So my primary job was advising commanders on a variety of legal issues. So I was stationed in Germany, which was already a unique experience. I was stationed overseas.
00:31:24
Speaker
And I deployed to Iraq in Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2004 and then a second time in 2006. So I had experience in a war zone as well, but in the role of a lawyer, a military lawyer. So for me, I just want to put that, because I wasn't an infantryman. I advised commanders of combat arms, commanders like infantry commanders.
00:31:45
Speaker
Battalion commander is a brigade commander, but I was not one myself. For me, I think the greatest impact, and I've spoken about this publicly, is, well, first of all, how I was received in the military. And I think that's important to note because you have to understand that after 9-11, right, I'm a Pakistani American. My parents were not born here. I'm Muslim. And I'm now going to go serve in the army. And how is that going to be received? And somebody with my name in my face,
00:32:15
Speaker
Is anyone going to even want to work with me? Are they going to trust me? Magnify that by just a few months prior to me entering the officer basic course. A Muslim American soldier commits the most tragic of crimes and kills other American soldiers in Kuwait by throwing a grenade into tents.
00:32:31
Speaker
with the 101st Airborne, and I won't give him credit by even naming him, but a civil Google search will bring up this case. And so immediately prior to me joining the officer basic course, somebody who looks like me with a name like mine just killed American soldiers and was in an American uniform. So for me, look, there was some hesitancy when I was about to embark on this new journey. And look, I will tell you,
00:32:56
Speaker
basically had to just mentally prepare that this might be a very difficult four years. At the time my commitment was actually three years, I extended an additional year to deploy a second time. So I guess initially it'd be a very difficult three years. And it may be one of the most hostile work environments I've ever encountered or will ever encounter in my life. And what I think is important, Dean, is to say upfront, nothing could have been farther from the truth. I met just, I don't know, just unbelievably
00:33:25
Speaker
great Americans when I was serving in the army. And I was accepted and I was able to do my job effectively. And I had the ear of the commanders and I had the respect of the soldiers. And this idea, this notion that I would be ostracized or that I wouldn't be trusted never came to fruition. And I'm very appreciative of that experience because it really was not necessarily what I expected, even though I really thought it was important for me to serve. And I was going to do it
00:33:54
Speaker
come hell or high water, whether it was going to be positive or negative, this is what I was going to do. But it's so positive that to this day, I still continue to speak at military events. I speak to young judge advocates. I was at the Pentagon a month or so ago speaking there. I was at Fort Bragg speaking there. On Veterans Day, I flew to Georgia Law School to speak there on Veterans Day. And to me, I'm very proud that on Veterans Day, a law school would have me as the face of the veteran.
00:34:22
Speaker
to speak about military. Years ago, that might not have been the case. I'm very proud to speak on those issues. That, to me, I think is the most important thing I can say about my experience. Of course, look, I was advising on
00:34:38
Speaker
It depends. When I first started off, I was assisting soldiers with legal issues. When I was in Iraq the first time, we would deal with the rules of engagement and other areas of the law of war because we were in Iraq. When I was deployed a second time, we would review evidence of detainees, and I would advise commanders on whether we had sufficient evidence or not. I would advise soldiers on what type of evidence to collect.
00:35:01
Speaker
I've even been on missions with infantry soldiers who were going to be detaining a target where I would assist on evidence collection at the location before we would depart. So there's a lot of, I think, different things I did. All that I will tell you is a very small part. My contribution to the military, I think, was very small. But for me, it was so significant that I could play any role to help American soldiers that were in a very
00:35:30
Speaker
I think, difficult situation in a time of war. So I hope that answers your question. I want to talk a little bit about the positive experience, a little bit about what I did. But really, it was a very small percentage, but I was very proud of the time that I served. I served
00:35:46
Speaker
four years on active duty before I was honorably discharged. And then, like I said, it really was the catalyst to me looking for some civilian equivalent. I really might have stayed in the military longer, but for my daughter being born in Germany.
00:36:01
Speaker
And that changed the, you know, I think my career path in a lot of ways with, you know, her mother and I really wanted to bring her home, you know, and not have her moving from location to location. And I had already deployed, you know, two times in my four years. So I could imagine what my deployment schedule would have been if I stayed in longer and I wanted to spend time with her. So that was a major factor in me leaving the military.
00:36:30
Speaker
Got it, so there's the other part of your identity as a father coming through that answer. So you left, you finished your service and then, but you continue to do public service work. You work for the Department of Homeland Security and then the US Attorney's Office. Can you share a little bit about some of the work that you did while as an assistant US Attorney?
Career in Law and Justice
00:36:55
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. I mean, because my time in the Department of Homeland Security was very short. I wanted to, I'll be honest, I wanted to be an assistant US attorney when I came out of the military. It was, to me, part of the civilian equivalent of what I was doing in the military, right? I could continue to serve as a prosecutor, which by the way, for two of my four years when I was in Germany, I was a military prosecutor.
00:37:15
Speaker
I had some experience. The military rules of evidence mimic the federal rules of evidence. And I thought it was another way to serve my country, but as a civilian. And so I applied to the U.S. Attorney's Office. While I was going through that process, I did work at the Department of Homeland Security in immigration court on political asylum cases. So newbies in DHS really get those types of cases where people are applying for political asylum.
00:37:40
Speaker
And you're there to just make sure that there's no fraud component to the application, that it's legitimate, and you appear in immigration court, and ultimately the judge will decide if the asylum is granted. So I did that for about eight months and then transferred to the US Attorney's Office. At the US Attorney's Office, I did a few different things. I started off in the government fraud section, dealing really with fraud cases against the government. I worked in the narcotics unit briefly.
00:38:06
Speaker
And then the majority of my time at the U.S. Attorney's Office, I was in what's called the Special Prosecutions Division, which really deals with corruption, whether it's by law enforcement, politicians, or public workers. We dealt with investigating and prosecuting corruption within the government. And that was the division I wanted to be in. And I was fortunate that I was ultimately allowed to do that type of work. I will tell you, when you Google me, nobody talks about those types of civil rights cases. They always say,
00:38:35
Speaker
You know, oh, Judge Koreshi, he's silent on civil rights, and all we know is he was a federal prosecutor. But if they, I think they dove in a little deeper, they would see that the majority of my time as a prosecutor, I was dealing with civil rights cases because you're investigating and prosecuting corrupt law enforcement officers.
00:38:52
Speaker
or corrupt politicians or the corrupt welfare case worker who's extorting the welfare recipient. I remember there was no case too small. Think about that. When you ask about what type of work, this is just an example, but I dealt with some pretty high-profile public corruption cases that you could read about.
00:39:14
Speaker
But I also remember the cases that you'll never read about. The welfare case worker who's extorting $100 or $200 from the most vulnerable of our citizens, right? Those that are indigent and poor and that are eligible for welfare. But in order for them to stay on the program, somebody's extorting them to give some of that money to them based on nothing other than greed. Those cases would aggravate me. And I would take that case just as seriously as the most high profile public official that we might be prosecuting
00:39:43
Speaker
because those cases are not different right there are victims in those cases in some ways
00:39:48
Speaker
I think the welfare recipient was a more vulnerable victim in some way. So I think that was important work. I was very proud of the work I did at the US Attorney's Office. But not everyone mentions what type of work I did. They think I was just a prosecutor dealing with guns and drugs. And that's not true. I did prosecute those cases. But the US Attorney's Office also manages other prosecutions other than firearms and narcotics. And so I thought it was important to note that.
00:40:15
Speaker
Yeah, no, and I'm glad that you did. And if we had more time, I would be asking more questions about those. But I ultimately want to start talking about your current position as a federal district judge. But pit stop at Reiser Danzig, you were there for several years. What was the motivation behind switching to moving back to private practice?
00:40:39
Speaker
Sure. And I'll try to be brief so we can get to the judiciary because I know you want to. But look, part of my reasoning is I've been in public service for a long time with U.S. Attorney's Office, Homeland Security, and the Army. So there were some financial, I think, circumstances that I was concerned about. I had a second child by that point. My son, Aiden, was there. And so I didn't just have my daughter, Zoe.
00:40:59
Speaker
And so I thought that this might be the time to transition, and also I had an interest in doing defense work. So for me, one of the conditions that I had placed on Reiger Danzig, and they were willing to accept it, is that if I was going to join the firm, I also wanted to represent indigent defendants in federal court, those who could not afford
00:41:17
Speaker
my fees at a large New Jersey law firm, but that the court could appoint me if I was qualified on the list. And I was very appreciative. The law firm did not balk at that. They said, we're happy for you to do that type of work. But obviously, it's a business. And so I have to work with retained clients. And I was happy to do both. And so for me, it was not just the financial reasons of maybe developing a little bit more financially for my two children.
00:41:43
Speaker
But it gave me an opportunity to go on the other side. And I will tell you, I've never been a prosecutor at heart or a defense attorney at heart. I will tell you, at the heart of who I am, I've always believed in the system. And I think you need competent lawyers on both sides. And so, you know, if you told me one day someone was going to drag my mother out of her house,
00:42:01
Speaker
I would hope that she had excellent attorney representing her. And so for me, it was very important to be on the other side where I would actually battle the very office I came from, the US Attorney's Office. So that's primarily what I was doing, white collar criminal defense, government investigations, but it wasn't all white collar criminal defense because I was doing court-appointed cases. And as you know, many of those indigent defendants are under parts of underrepresented groups, blacks and Hispanics, and they're also primarily in blue collar crime.
00:42:29
Speaker
So I was able to get involved on the defense side with those cases, and I was very happy to do it. And candidly, as a judge now who presides over not only civil, but criminal cases in federal court, I find that having that perspective of being a prosecutor, but also a defense attorney, and not only a defense attorney, but a defense attorney who had to deal with
00:42:53
Speaker
clients who were retained, right, and the issues that come with that type of client, but also indigent clients who I was appointed to represent and the issues that come up with those cases and those clients, I think that's helped me to be a little bit more balanced now that I'm presiding over the very cases I used to appear on, if that makes any sense. Yeah. I mean, I think that through the different work that you've done, military, as a law clerk yourself, and then through public service,
Becoming a Federal Judge
00:43:21
Speaker
private practice. You have a diverse experience and viewpoints, I think, that exposure to different types of issues and people where they're coming from that I would think is shaping the way you are, how you are as a judge. So in 2019, you were appointed to become a federal magistrate judge. And then in 2021, you were then nominated
00:43:45
Speaker
to be on the district court and confirmed by the Senate. There's a lot of, I want to start off by talking about the first. There's so many firsts. When you hear, I've attended- I never have to talk about it again, but hopefully that time will come sooner rather than you. Yes, yes. We hope, you know, I hope so too. Like I've been at these different events where you're, you know, you've been honored and you're the first Asian American federal judge in New Jersey, first Muslim American federal judge in the United States.
00:44:12
Speaker
What are your thoughts about when you're described as the first? What comes to your mind and how do you feel about that? I mean, look, I appreciate what it means. I will tell you though, just at the outset, whenever I was applying to the United States magistrate judge, I was never applying with the goal of being the first anything. I really wanted to be a member of this court. I had appeared before the federal judges in our district for several years. I had a tremendous amount of respect for them in the court and it had dawned on me
00:44:40
Speaker
I think I want to do that. I want to do this. And the hesitation of, well, why would I have a shot, right? Because as you know, magistrate judges, it's not political. They're selected by the district judges, right? The Article III judges choose who get to serve on the court with them as magistrate judges. And I think just having –
00:44:59
Speaker
And it goes back to not courage, but maybe the audacity to apply and say, why not me? Why can't it be me? Even though there's nobody like me on this court ever, I think was the first hurdle that I needed to overcome, which I did. So I applied in 2019, and not only did I get on, but two Asian Americans got on the same year. So Judge Sun Kiel,
00:45:19
Speaker
whose Korean American was selected shortly thereafter in 2019 as the second Asian American on the court and as a magistrate judge. So 2019 was a big year for our federal court, New Jersey, for the Asian American legal community, I think, because both of us are on. But I will tell you, that's not how we think when we're applying. We're applying because we bought a particular job. But I would be lying if I didn't say I appreciate what that means. Of course I do.
00:45:44
Speaker
Because look, one, you're under a microscope. If you're the first at anything, especially when you're in an underrepresented group, all eyes are on you. And so it matters what you do and how you do it, because what you're looking to do is not shut the faucet off. You're looking to open the door for others to follow and then surpass you. And so I hope that both me and Judge Keel have done that.
00:46:05
Speaker
We are very fortunate that Judge Singh ended up when I became a district judge, my vacancy at the magistrate judge level opened up. And I feel very proud that I was part of the district judges that selected Judge Roxana Singh to join the bench. She's the
00:46:21
Speaker
first female Asian-American on the federal court in New Jersey. And I think she's the only female Muslim federal judge in the country because there are other Muslim magistrate judges, but they're all male. She's the only female. So it's fairly significant that she's on the court. But I do feel proud that someone other who's highly qualified that was supposed to get the job got it. But that was the understanding. What I applied was I really wanted to do this work.
00:46:46
Speaker
But I'm not naive, and I think, you know, I appreciate what it means to be the first, and I think I understand what it means for the next generation, and I try to spend time speaking about these issues to motivate the next generation, not necessarily to follow us, but to surpass what we've already done. You know, I'm looking for the next Asian American. You know, now we finally have one on the Third Circuit, but it took some time, right? That only happened this past year.
00:47:08
Speaker
No Asian American had ever sat on our circuit court. No Asian American has ever sat on the US Supreme Court. And what I think is relevant to Rutgers and New Jersey is no Asian American has ever sat on our state's highest court, the New Jersey Supreme Court. So there is a lot of work to do. And I don't look at the glass half empty. I look at it half full, but that doesn't mean that I don't have my foot on the gas at full throttle saying we need to do more and we need to do better. And I know that you believe the same thing, that we need to be vigilant.
00:47:36
Speaker
and identify qualified candidates, but we also need to instill and encourage qualified candidates to be interested in public service and not be barbed by, well, they're never going to pick me because nobody like me has ever gotten a job. Because if we all think like that, me and Judge Keel don't get on the bench, right? In order to get there, you have to
00:47:56
Speaker
put yourself on the chopping block to be rejected, right? You have to put yourself out there to be exposed where somebody will write an article about you. And I know that's difficult and it's not for everybody, but I think it's important for us to continue to push qualified candidates in every demographic, not just Asian-American, other representative groups to join the judiciary, to join other places where we don't have the strongest voice. So that was the process in 2019, but I'm grateful that they selected me. And obviously in 2021, things changed again.
00:48:26
Speaker
in my job change. So many of our students or listeners don't really fully understand the work that federal magistrate judges do and district judges. Can you talk about what you did as a magistrate judge and then now what you do as a district judge?
Responsibilities as a Judge
00:48:43
Speaker
Sure. So it's twofold, right? Because unlike state court, we're not broken up into divisions. So we have all civil and all criminal cases on the federal level come to us, right? I'm not a criminal district judge and nobody's a civil magistrate judge. It's everything that comes in the federal court. So magistrate judges on the civil side, right, at least for the civil work that they get,
00:49:04
Speaker
primarily do the case management. And they work the case from beginning until dispositive motion. So all the discovery disputes on those civil cases they address. But anything that's dispositive, so like a motion for summary judgment, a motion to dismiss that would decide the case, those issues go to the district judge. Now there's one exception in civil.
00:49:24
Speaker
The parties on civil cases can consent to magistrate judge jurisdiction. If they do that, the magistrate judge for all intents and purposes becomes the district judge on the case, can handle it dispositively, can even do the civil trial. In our district, we have excellent magistrate judges.
00:49:40
Speaker
So parties will consent to their jurisdiction on the civil side. And so you'll see magistrate judges dealing with case management. And in addition to that, they've taken over cases where they are the district judge. And so really, it's twofold. On the criminal side, it's a little bit different. You can't consent to a magistrate judge on felony criminal cases.
00:49:58
Speaker
So every felony case that's charged in federal court has to be dealt with by a district judge. It cannot be assigned to them. So misdemeanor cases, cases that really, I would say generally are defined by a sentence of a year or less, those can be handled by magistrate judges, but any felony case really has to be handled by district judges. So on the criminal side, the magistrate judges aren't dealing with the trials and they're not dealing with dispositive issues, but they are dealing with very important things.
00:50:26
Speaker
First of all, they're the first face you're going to see on a criminal case because they do the initial appearance and they determine bail, right? Whether somebody is going to be released pending their case or they need to be detained. And they primarily look at two factors without going into great detail, whether the defendant is a danger to the community or a flight risk. So magistrate judges have significant authority in criminal cases at the outset of those cases because they decide whether someone's going to be in prison
00:50:53
Speaker
who's presumed innocent, but pending their case has to be detained, and that's a significant responsibility. The one last thing I'll talk about, even though you don't see it in the face of a courtroom, but it's very important to magistrate judges, they're the gatekeepers of the Fourth Amendment. Every search warrant, everybody who has authority to go in your home to search your house or to arrest or to do those things that
00:51:13
Speaker
infringe on the Fourth Amendment and those constitutional issues, those applications are decided by magistrate judges. So they are the gatekeeper to the Fourth Amendment. They are deciding when the government can go into somebody's home to search and whether they have probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed, that there's probable cause and evidence of that crime is in that location.
00:51:33
Speaker
To be honest, that's a significant amount of power that a lot of folks don't talk about when they refer to magistrate judges. But you've seen some high profile cases now on TV and in the country where a magistrate judge can authorize a search warrant of a president's home. So think about the significance of that. An Article III judge is not doing that. An appointed magistrate judge is making that call. And so it's a very important job. It's one that we take seriously when we select. And it's one that I am unbelievably proud of that I was selected to.
00:52:02
Speaker
You know, sometimes people ask me, you know, now that you're a district judge, you know, how is that different? I'm most proud of being selected as a magistrate judge, but I do appreciate the challenges and the work that I get to do as a district judge that I do now. So hopefully that answers more of the magistrate judge question, but I don't know if you have more on the DJ.
Challenges in Sentencing
00:52:23
Speaker
Yeah, no. I mean, that was helpful. What do you find is the most challenging part of your job now as a judge?
00:52:32
Speaker
So that I've had time to think about, and I think about it often because it is still the most challenging part of my job as a district judge, and that's sentencing. So as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney, I will tell you, I had a very great appreciation for the impact of a sentence on a defendant, whether I was prosecuting someone or representing that person in court.
00:52:51
Speaker
But it's a significant amount of weight on me when you are the ultimate decision maker on what sentence is appropriate for a criminal defendant. And not that that means that a term of incarceration is not appropriate. It is. And sometimes you have to sentence somebody to prison. But I appreciate the impact it has on family, on children, on people that are innocent that are unrelated to the criminal conduct. And so I will tell you that as complex as some of the civil cases are and having to learn
00:53:19
Speaker
A lot of different areas of law and I can talk about that as a secondary challenge but Dean the primary challenge and most difficult part of the job and I You almost never feel good when you walk out of the courtroom after a sentencing hearing I spend time kind of away from folks in my chambers after a sentencing and clear my head because I think it's the most difficult and challenging job of serving as a chalkboard judge and as a district judge
00:53:46
Speaker
But I also think it's important. I trust myself to do it. And I will tell you, if I ever feel it's not challenging and that it's easy, it's probably a signal that I need to leave the bench because I think it should always be a difficult thing for judges to have to do because you are, even if you're issuing what you believe is an appropriate sentence and the right sentence for a particular case, lives are being destroyed in the process. And some of those lives are completely innocent to the criminal conduct and it's difficult.
00:54:17
Speaker
that that was really helpful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.
Gratitude and Giving Back
00:54:21
Speaker
Well, we're at the top of the hour now. And so, you were, we started off talking about you were a soccer player. And then, soccer player, then you went to school. We had three state championships in Florida. We were a highly successful soccer team when we became teenagers in high school. Hey, that's great. And you know, I watched Ted Lasso, so I'm learning a little bit more.
00:54:46
Speaker
I'm just not a sports person, but yes, obviously soccer is an important sport worldwide. And you played that and then you went to law school, you college law school, and then throughout your career. I just want to say we're so proud of you at Rutgers Law School. You're a role model, you're an inspiration to many of us here. Your former professors are so proud of you. Our students look up to you and we're grateful to you for your ongoing support.
00:55:16
Speaker
at the law school. So I just want to thank you for your commitment and your generosity to the law school and to the university. So thanks so much. And thank you for making time for us today. Thank you, Dee. Thanks for having me. And look, none of this happens without my legal career starting at Rutgers. And I know you know this. We said this at the outset, and I spoke about this earlier on this podcast. But one of the reasons why I gravitate back to the law school often
00:55:45
Speaker
And as much as I can is because of what it's done for me. I mean, my legal career started, you know, within the walls of Rutgers Law School in Newark. And for me, everything that follows, that was really the catalyst to get me to where I am today. So I'm happy to be a part of this, I hope.
00:56:01
Speaker
Some folks find it interesting, but please let me know how I can return and I'm happy to be back there to see you and the student body and encourage the next generation of Rutgers Law students to continue where you and I have been and go beyond. So thank you again.
00:56:16
Speaker
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