Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 36 - CoB's HOF Class of 2025
31 Plays1 year ago
The boys cast their ballot for this year's HOF class and discourse ensues.
Will Ichiro be unanimous?
Does CC get in first ballot?
Will Zach change his stance on relievers?
Find out all this and more on the latest episode of Championship or Bust!
https://x.com/TheCOBPodcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Hall of Fame Balloting
00:00:04
Speaker
Well, as Andy Williams once said, it's the most wonderful time of the year. And I'm not talking about Thanksgiving. I'm going to talk about Black Friday from last week. I'm not talking about Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza, or Festivus. I'm talking about baseball Hall of Fame balloting season, the season that I wait for all year.
Opening of Hall of Fame Ballot Episode
00:00:24
Speaker
What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the second annual Hall of Fame ballot episode of championship or bust.
00:00:30
Speaker
And I cannot be more excited. Mac is here. Zach is here. Josh is here. And we are ready to talk Hall of Fame. Now, before we get to the ballots, I just want to get the annoying stuff out of the way. So let me do that.
Critique of Veterans Committee Ballot Reduction
00:00:48
Speaker
um I just again have to point out how badly the Hall of Fame managed to screw this up. And I'm talking about the Veterans Committee ballots, which we're going to start with in a few minutes.
00:00:57
Speaker
We talked about last year how they lowered the number of players on the ballot from 12 to 8 and the max number of votes per ballot from 4 to 3. Last year it didn't really matter too much because it was relatively modern managers and contributors who were all pretty much making new appearances on the ballot with a couple exceptions, but we're seeing the effects of it now. So this year is everybody before 1980.
00:01:20
Speaker
And now we have Negro League players thrown in the mix as well.
Inclusion of Negro League Players
00:01:24
Speaker
And the reality is that there are at least 15 to 20 Negro League players who clearly belong in the Hall of Fame. Now, the obvious solution here would have been to do a separate ballot like we did in 2006. But instead, let's take a look at this committee. Paul Molitor, Joe Torrey, Bryan Sabian, the architect of the three championship San Francisco Giants, Ozzy Smith, all due respect to these guys, legendary baseball figures,
00:01:49
Speaker
all Hall of Famers or Future Hall of Famer and Sabian in their own right. But how much do they really know about the history of the Negro Leagues? And even if they do know a ton, let's say they know everything about it, how does one accurately compare Tommy John to John Donaldson? um um um right Hold on. um before Before you go on to that, ah but their records are all part of and MLB records. So technically that they should be compared to each other. And that's right. Right. I mean, that's the point of this, isn't it? Do you remember their records are all in the same record book and they should be compared to each other.
00:02:19
Speaker
equal as equals I mean, that's what they're aiming for, right? This is exactly what I said when they first integrated the stats, that now guys are going to look worse when in reality they should be looking as good or better. And we really need a separate committee with actual Negro League historians or historians that covered that era of baseball in general that, you know,
00:02:44
Speaker
pre-segregation era. Or better yet, let's have Bob Kendrick, the president of the Niagara League Museum, and have him handpick the guys who belong. I think even that would be better. But instead, we have everyone before 1980 thrown into one pot. So this normally wouldn't be a problem because a committee with common sense would have maybe put some new blood on the ballot. And by new blood, I mean guys who the committees haven't looked at it much in the past. For example, you guys know who Kurt Flood is?
Notable Figures and Repeat Candidates
00:03:15
Speaker
for the name. So he was the first free agent. He paved the way for free agency. He basically said, I want to say in my contract. And it became a big controversy. He won multiple gold gloves, multiple time All Star. But he's the reason why we have free agency right now. Hasn't been on a committee ballot since 2007, which was like 12 different rule change committees ago. He's not on here. We talked about Dom DiMaggio in the past. He's never once been looked at by a veterans committee. Jack Glasscock. Yes, that is his name.
00:03:45
Speaker
uh hasn't been voted on since 1936 you know all we talk about 300 wins being a magic number well how about bobby matthews 297 career wins you know how many times he's even been on any whole ballot writers or vets zero zero zero never even been looked at So instead, we have the same usual repeats. This is Ken Boyer's seventh committee ballot, Louis Tian's seventh committee ballot, Dick Allen's seventh committee ballot, Steve Garvey and Tommy John's fifth, and Dave Parker's fourth. Now this is not a shot at those guys at all. In fact, out of those six, I think five belong in the Hall of Fame. But when you have other guys who have legit cases who haven't been examined in years, and you lower the amount that can A, be on the ballot, and B, that you can vote for, tells me one of two things.
00:04:34
Speaker
Either the screening committee really wants this group of guys in, or they want no one in, so they're using these guys as the metaphorical shield to keep others off the ballot. It's the definition of insanity. It's the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Either way, nothing is going to change until these guys break through the mold. And with that being said, I voted for three of them, but I'm going to turn it over to you guys first. Who would like to start?
00:05:00
Speaker
ah why I think after the Bill White disaster of last year, Zachy should start again. You know what I think, Mr. Zachy? Go ahead. Okay.
Candidate Evaluations: Tommy John to Dave Parker
00:05:09
Speaker
um We were talking a bit about this off pod. I did put but two out of the three of these guys in just for the more the impact off the field in the history aspect. I know you mentioned Tommy John. I did have to put him in. I think you have to put him in because of the significance of the UCL reconstruction surgery and what that did for baseball. His comeback story I think is too important to the game as a whole just to not have him in there.
00:05:34
Speaker
I'm obviously the numbers are solid too, but it's what off the field happened is more important. Secondly, you talked about John Donaldson. I thought when I was reading about this guy, it was unreal all the stuff that he did. Player manager and businessman too, establishing the barnstorming stuff that we were talking about, you know, a few episodes back with the Nick release. His story is pretty crazy. I think he deserves to be in.
00:06:02
Speaker
And then I really struggled putting the last guy in because a lot of these guys had really solid numbers and borderline. But eventually I did. I just went with Dave Parker. 27 hits. 2700 hits. Excuse me. The two time batting champ really, really stood out to me. But somehow only has a 40 war, um but I did put him in. I have nothing to clown you on. I, uh, I shouldn't have let you go first. Well done.
00:06:29
Speaker
Because those are the same three guys that I picked. No way. Absolutely those same three guys. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. Tommy, John, the guy has a surgery in there and that guys are having once, even twice as in their careers. I mean, people talk about guys having to go have this surgery before it even they get hurt just because it's going to happen at some point to a lot of guys in the league. Yeah, as a pioneer of the surgery, he absolutely should be in the Hall of Fame. And he had a you know good playing career, aside from that.
00:06:59
Speaker
For John Donaldson, I mean, yeah, the guy who was known as one of the best, if not the best pitcher in Negro Leagues has ever seen. And aside from his playing career, yeah, he was the pioneer of barnstorming. The guy who traveled the country with a bunch of other pros. ah Satchel Paige is one of them. Satchel Paige has really looked up to John Donaldson. And, you know, he also was a pro scout for the White Sox. He was the White Sox first black pro scout. So, yeah, the guy had a huge impact on baseball as a whole.
00:07:28
Speaker
and Dave Parker, I think it's an absolute travesty how this man's war is so low. But yeah, I mean, he couldn't even catch a cold out there in right field. So I guess that kind of makes sense ah why the war is low. But yeah, he should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame is his hitting numbers are just they're way too high for him and not get any sort of recognition for it. Absolute rocket arm to. Right. Rocket arm, but couldn't catch a cold enough field, apparently. Yeah.
00:07:57
Speaker
look at us she lining i know i I don't know how to feel about this. My skin is crawling just a bit. I'll be a slight disagreement, but not too far off. So John Donaldson absolutely deserving. I did not put him on my ballot only because i'm not allowed I'm only allowed to have three, but he should be in. He should have been in 50 years ago. Vic Harris should have been in 50 years ago. The guy won seven pennants as a manager in a Negro League World Series.
00:08:27
Speaker
I couldn't find room for him either. And I regret the fact that I can only vote for three here because as I said in the intro, I think seven of the eight legitimately belong in. um The one who I don't think belongs in in a vacuum is Ken Boyer. um I just, I can't find the reason that makes him stick out as being a necessary guy to be in other than the fact that he played third base and third base is underrepresented. But I'm looking into the future years coming.
00:08:57
Speaker
Yeah, got guys like Jose Ramirez, guys like Nolan Arenado, I think that's going to be a thing of the past in a few short years. And I think if Ken Boyer doesn't get in this year, it's going to be very difficult for him to get in moving forward. ah With that being said, I did vote for another um third baseman at times, and that is Dick Allen. Dick Allen, I voted for not necessarily because he is the number one guy on the ballot. I'm not quite sold on that.
00:09:23
Speaker
But he did have a 156 OPS plus, led the league in OPS four times, won an MVP, ah has three top 10 MVP finishes, didn't have the longest career, but had an elite peak. And I kind of went in the direction of the human aspect for him. So he fell short by one vote in, I'll find the exact year, in 2015. Fell short by one vote with Tony Oliva. Tony Oliva eventually got in.
00:09:52
Speaker
now They were supposed to meet again on his candidacy in 2020, on December 7th, 2020. Obviously COVID happened and they stopped the committee. The day they were gonna meet or the day after they were gonna meet, I forget which one, was the day Dick Allen passed away. wow So he passed away one vote short on the day or within one day of the day they were actually gonna meet to discuss his candidacy one more time.
00:10:20
Speaker
He then came up in 2022. 2022, he came one vote short again. So, and that was the year that Tony Leva, Jim Cott, Gil Hodges, and Minnie Minneoso got in on that ballot. So I think it's his time. My OCD acts up and the fact that he came one vote short twice, I think I just got to give him that edge. So I went, I went with um Dick Allen. I went with Tommy John as well.
00:10:50
Speaker
um The real thing that pushed me over the edge with him is not even the historical aspect, is the fact that his career is identical basically to Jim Cott, other than the fact that Jim Cott has the gold of gloves. i think you I think they both belong the whole thing, but I think they both have something about them outside of the playing field that kind of puts them over the edge. Jim Cott with his broadcasting career, Tommy John with obviously the surgery. Gold gloves are a such a sham. I know. Jim Cott has 16 of them. That's such a sham. Yeah, that's crazy.
00:11:19
Speaker
but I think ah Tommy John was a little bit better than Jim Cott. Their ERAs are within 0.11 of each other. Tommy John started more games. His career lasted longer even with the surgery. He won five more games. He lost six less games. ah He has a higher ERA plus. His strikeouts are lower, but that I'm not too worried about that if you're getting guys out. ah It had a 60 career war over Cott's 50. So I think Tommy John belongs in.
00:11:45
Speaker
on a playing standpoint but obviously he's so historically significant that i feel like you can't keep him out last guy i had was right on'm on with you guys i have dave parker and the reason why the big reason why i went with parker and tommy john is a very simple fact that the two of them are still alive to enjoy it I'm sick of seeing guys get in after they die. Louis Tion, who's on the ballot, said it himself. And I said in an intro once, if you put me in after I die, don't go. I heavily consider putting Louis Tion on the ballot, but I decided to respect his wishes. Dave Parker's sick with Parkinson's. I want to see him get in while he's still here to enjoy it. And I think that that might help shift the committee in his favor. Um, the closest he's ever gotten on one of these committees is 43.8%. And this is now his fourth run.
00:12:32
Speaker
I'd love to see that. He's the guy I'm rooting for the most out of everybody. The only other living guy who I didn't vote for was Steve Garvey. And I think he is deserving, but not as deserving as a bunch of the guys on the ballot. So I tried to find room for kind of the living and the guys who felt just short. So that was my reasoning.
00:12:55
Speaker
I'd love to see it that we had two or three, at least for all of us.
Frustrations and Priorities in Hall of Fame Inductions
00:12:59
Speaker
Yeah. So in Charing Super West Hall of Fame, we welcome Tommy John and Dave Parker and John Donaldson for what it's worth. If we had unlimited votes, he would 100% have had my vote. So i I agree with you guys on everything you said. I have no other argument other than the fact that he's not here to enjoy it. Most of the people that, you know, were worried about John Donaldson aren't here to enjoy it. And I wanted to bump up those that are still here to enjoy it.
00:13:32
Speaker
But Yeah, anything else to add on that before I move forward? No, I'm just, I'm really happy that we we pretty much agreed on a lot of it. I was really worried that we were all going to pick completely different people, but it turned out, you know, working all right. Yeah. I i kind of feel a little skeevy. That's epic. The same guys as I get it. I don't expect the committee to agree with us, but I mean, I think this is one of those where you can't really go wrong. Even if Ken Boyer got in, id I'd be happy to see it. I just want to see someone get in.
00:14:04
Speaker
yeah But we'll segue into the bbwa. So we'll go you guys will go alphabetical or do you want to go by years on the ballot? How do you want to do it? i would go and But I would go alphabetical so we did it last year last year I've ever sounds good to me. We'll start off with Bobby abreu So Bobby brady was on his sixth year of eligibility as 14.8% as of right now 60 career war 2400 hits 288 home runs, 1300 RBIs, 400 stolen bases in a career of 291, batting average in 128 OPS plus. Believe it or not, he actually has the fourth highest OPS plus on this ballot among hitters. I'm not counting for you guys here. It's actually not a crazy case. I just can't get myself to do it. I'm sorry. um None of us voted for him last year. That did not change on my end. Yeah, same.
00:15:02
Speaker
now no absolutely not no he's one that's just based on vibes and I just don't see it I'm sorry I just don't he's just not that guy he's just not that guy no but it it's nothing about his numbers stand out to me and he was never like the best player he you know he's another guy it's in the hall very good but he's not a Hall of Famer I was just about say he's in a first ballot inductee of the hall very good now We'll move right into the guy we disagreed with last year. I was the only one who had him in, and that's Carlos Beltran. I know Josh's opinion is not gonna change on this, but we're talking about a guy who had a 70 war, 57 jaws, which is the second highest on the ballot, um behind A-Rod only. He has 2,725 hits, 435 home runs, 1587 ribbies,
00:15:58
Speaker
279 career batting average and 119 OPS plus. What do we think? No. Go ahead, Zach. Yeah. After after looking at the numbers and seeing what you know happened, these past few, you know all these people coming on, he is clearly head and shoulders above a lot of the hitters we're looking at recently. So I did change my vote. You're going to be very happy back. Hey, look at that. You disappoint me.
00:16:25
Speaker
We got a game voter! We got a game voter! You disappoint me. We did it! ah You got it yourself. but You know what? You know what? It makes sense. He's not a Yankee fan. He's not mad about the Astros because he's a Phillies fan. It makes sense. It makes sense. Of course he would. But then by that logic, a Philly fan voted for a Met.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, so Josh, you can't tell it doesn't matter vote. Yes for all to very right. I am never voting yes for all to very ever whatsoever. No, that's a that's a huge no. Not only did he steal World Series of the Yankees, he also stole an MVP from Aaron. Okay. So you're not going to vote for Justin Verlander than either, right? No. Wow. Well, I mean, I feel under Verlander I will I will have to find out the lender I will have to think about.
00:17:10
Speaker
solely because he was not a hitter and he was not involved from everything that has come out about it. For Verlander, I will have to consider. I would vote against Verlander simply because he was a jerk to me. I could be like these actual writers. I could just vote for people who don't vote for people who are mean. So Jim Rice took so long. I could gladly do that. That's totally fine by me. So if you do that, I will happily join you. I will consider Verlander.
00:17:38
Speaker
I do want to point out that eleven percent and Just under 11% of people agreed with Zach last year and flipped from a no to a yes from 2023 to 2024 for Carlos Beltran. He's polling at 57.1% of the vote. It's not going to happen this year, but next year, assuming the newcomers get in, he's going to be the highest on the ballot that has half a chance to get in.
00:18:03
Speaker
The farther we get away from the Astros cheating scandal, the less it'll be prevalent in people's memories, and the more his stats will shine through. Because we'll get to it, but Wagner's in his last year of eligibility, right? Andra Jones is in his eighth year at 61.6%, and he didn't grow much last year. After that is Beltron, A-Rod, and Manny. Wow. And the newcomers this year that have a chance to get in, obviously, are Ichiro and C.C.
00:18:30
Speaker
Ichiro's gonna walk in, see if he gets in. Beltran is the candidate that I think is gonna make the jump in 2026. Getting way ahead of ourselves here, but I think that that's where that's gonna go. But, Zaki, well done. Thank you. You're getting there. Was that a sympathy vote to preemptively get behind any possible roasting for Bill White part two? No, no, no. no See, we're gonna forget about Bill White. That's over and done with. I'm a new man. I respect it. No, we are absolutely not forgetting about that.
00:19:01
Speaker
I respect it. So another new, another returner on the ballot.
Evaluating Career Stats: Mark Burley to Dustin Pedroia
00:19:06
Speaker
It's Mark Burley. Uh, only had Si on the votes in one season. He finished fifth. This is now going to be his fifth ballot. He's kind of hanging around in the abyss of the bottom of the ballot. He peaked at 11% his first year. He's went down to 5.8 then back up to 10 now back down to eight. So he's been kind of see soaring a little bit. Um, I, I'm sorry, I don't see it.
00:19:31
Speaker
at all, but does anybody else see it? No, I'm pretty sure we said the same thing last year where, uh, when I looked at his war, I, you know, I did a spit take and my eyes fell out of my head because nothing about the man's ever showed anything like that. I mean, he has no accolades at all whatsoever. He was never in a Cy Young conversation legitimately.
00:19:58
Speaker
I mean, yeah he was a good pitcher for a long time, but I even use the word good very sparingly. yeah So yeah, I don't, I don't know how he accumulated that much war. I mean, he has a 3.81 career ERA and the one knock on CC is that his ERA is high. Burley's ERA is higher through a lot less games and through a lot less strikeouts than Sebastian did.
00:20:21
Speaker
So if people are going to hold that against Cece, I don't understand how Burley is getting 10% of the vote. That's where I was going to go. I don't know how he stuck around. I really don't know how he was in a one and done. Like I know it's a weak ballot like the last couple of years, but I'm pretty surprised with that. And this year we'll talk about the first ballot newcomers. I think it's going to be hard for these lower end guys to stay on. Cause give me a bunch of guys where they may not be Hall of Famers, but you're going to be like, huh, maybe they get 5%.
00:20:50
Speaker
And I think enough of them are going to come in that might push out the Burley's of the ballot. I don't know. Next year's ballot is so bad. Yeah. We're talking about a single guy. But yeah we'll get yeah, we'll get to that. It's tricky. I'll happily talk about that if you guys want to. We can save that for the end. Yeah. But yeah, I don't i don't see. I mean, the guy was an exciting conversation one time. And it was a fifth place finish.
00:21:19
Speaker
and He never led the league in anything. yeah Ever. Not once. I'm sorry, he led the league in whip one time. One time. That's it. From perspective, Dylan Sees has two top five sayon finishes. Yeah, I just... I don't... I don't get it. Sonny Gray has two top five sayon. Oh yeah, no, you can stop right there. i was I'm making the point. fits It's not looking great. I mean, you know what? You gotta give the guy credit, right? He never got hurt.
00:21:49
Speaker
Yeah. He was healthy for his entire career. And he never got hurt. He threw 30 plus starts every single year without fail. Yup. And that's where I think a lot of the people who vote for him try to justify it is that he was one of the last workhorses. One of the last guys that will throw the ball till his arm falls off. That's all well and good. So was Bartolo Colon. Right. He fell off at the end of the year.
00:22:18
Speaker
Yeah, I can't. now No. No. And to make the ballot, you had to have a very good career, which this guy did, who's not going to, who may not get a vote for the Hall of Fame. And I think that's really our talking point here. Carlos Gonzalez had one elite season in Coors Field, uh, finished with 1400 hits, 234 home runs, 785. No, right. Do we need to take any time on this one? No, I can't even believe he's on the ballot.
00:22:48
Speaker
I'm surprised he made it on to be honest. had I thought of him as like the best player to not make the ballot kind of deal. But good for him. and He had yeah that one year. and Everybody thought, Oh my God, this guy is going to be like the next big thing. Like it was his first full season in the league. And then everybody realized that that was just the complete utter fluke. Yup. Pretty much. he had two He had like two or three good seasons after that. And then it just, it just all fell apart. Yeah. We'll talk about too low later. But I remember thinking when I was younger, I really thought they were going to do something over there in Colorado.
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah, we'll definitely get a little later too. That's one of those guys. I'm the Colorado promise. They don't do something when they leave. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Which is making me wonder about Nolan Arenado. I mean, I have him in my list already, but I wonder how these Cardinal years are going to impact yeah candidacy down the line because he kind of had one good year in St. Louis. And then after that, not so much. I think that's such a trend in St. Louis in general, like ultimate, same problem that he didn't play in Colorado. Yeah.
00:23:53
Speaker
St. Louis becoming where Hall of Fame careers are going to die. It's tough. So Curtis Granderson. I love him. I really love him. I can't get there. you yeah how can you How could you not love the Granny Man? come on You gotta love the Granny Man. Remember the one year where he hit like 40 bombs? that That was what it was. I love that. Yeah, two years where he hit 40 bombs. yeah 2011-2012 he had 40 years. He is the epitome of what the Yankees love. From 15 years ago, a guy that's gonna hit 40 home runs while hitting 220 and striking out 200 times. And the Yankees still love it. They they sp still, that's all they want. And nothing has changed. Nothing has changed. It's funny though, his 240 home run years
00:24:45
Speaker
were his second and eighth best seasons by war. wow So he had one season where he flirted with eight war in 2007 with the Tigers when he had 23 triples. So he is a guy who really kind of reinvented himself based on the park he was in and based on his age. Well, look at his average. He had 300 in 2007. He had 280 in 2008 and he became a Yankee. What did he hit in 2011 and 2012 when he had 40 home runs? 260 and 230. Yup. you He adjusted his game. He became a home run hitter and everybody everybody said it.
00:25:22
Speaker
Everybody knew he changed the swing to try to hit home runs in that short porch. yeah He did it very effectively. He did. And then he said, well, you know what? You're not that good. We don't want you anymore. And then he became trash for the next five years of his career and then retired. Yep. He with the Mets was so funny. Yes. And he was not good. He was not good for them.
00:25:46
Speaker
So we're going into the saying he's not a Hall of Famer, right? Absolutely not. Love him love them. During our childhood for those three years, he was a Yankee, but absolutely not. No way. I agree. no way' all there yeah Here's where things get interesting. The most difficult name on the ballot for me. King Felix Hernandez.
00:26:09
Speaker
I don't know where to go with this one. I'm not gonna lie. Two ERA titles. Si Young, two runner-ups, four top five finishes, six top ten finishes. To me he's head and shoulders above Mark Burley. 169-136 with a 3.42 ERA. Actually lower ERA than Sibathia, but obviously didn't pitch as long. um Had a 7.2 war season, 50 war on the career. ah He's a guy obviously high peak
00:26:40
Speaker
low volume relatively, but he did get 2500 strikeouts. So the volume was there in some aspects, but he kind of is the epitome of this ballot of a lot of high peak, low, long term guys. What'd we say for Felix? Sure. um You go first. He said something to me off pod and I don't want to take your thunder. Oh, I don't know what I said to you.
00:27:04
Speaker
But, uh, my answer, my, well, my answer here is I, I, this one was difficult. Yes. I, I, it took me a long time and a lot of head scratching and looking up player comparisons. Um, and honestly, there's two guys that really stood out to me when you're comparing, when you're thinking of, you look at this and who you're comparing him to. And those two guys are Roy Oswald.
00:27:32
Speaker
And Cole Hamels, now Cole Hamels has not is not eligible yet. He he will be eligible next year. Roy Oswald didn't even make it through a ballot. what He got four votes, not 4%. No, no, he got four votes. Yes, it was a loaded ballot. Yeah, that battle was insane.
00:27:50
Speaker
but You got four votes, man. And I would think, personally, that Oswald would be a Hall of Famer over Hernandez, and even that one's kind of a stretch. Yeah, I wouldn't put him in the Hall of Fame either. I wouldn't particularly put him in, but he I think he had a better career than Hernandez did, Hernandez. Yes, yes, he won a Cy Young, but we've seen guys win Cy Youngs that are not Hall of Famers. a you know you could Look at guys like Trevor Bauer.
00:28:19
Speaker
Yeah. That guy's not a Hall of Famer. I like him. Don't get me wrong. He is not a Hall of Famer. And Hernandez had a very good peak. He had a five, six year span where he was one of the best players in baseball. Problem was is that he did nothing before that. He did nothing after that. And he did not play very long after that. He didn't really have a long career.
00:28:45
Speaker
He stopped playing when COVID hit and then just never came back. Granted, he was atrocious at that point in his career and probably should have just called it called a quits at that point. You know, if he had pitched into his late thirties and accumulated a little more war, if he was able to keep it together and, you know, got a couple hundred more strikeouts, I think we'd be, this would be a different conversation. But I just, I don't, I can't, I can't put him in. Zach.
00:29:12
Speaker
I have to agree with Sherm here. I also did the Oswald comparison, the ERA title, you know, all that kind of stuff. The peak is definitely there. Don't get me wrong, it was a really tough decision too. I was really sitting there because I remember it was such a great picture as a kid. When you really sit down, it was really tight. I did go now. And Sherm told me, I think Burleigh has like almost 10 more better than him, which was crazy to me. yeah And that really just put me in the mindset where I was like, yeah, maybe this guy doesn't doesn't belong. So I do go now.
00:29:42
Speaker
You know the thing is is that you know you say that too about yeah, I told you guys really good as as a kid I mean yeah when we were 10 years old this guy was the best pitcher in baseball. Yeah, you want to sigh young in 2010. We were 11 years old And and from from 11 from 2010 to 2015 he was one of the best players in baseball easily hands-down But yeah, again there's nothing there's nothing else around that Tim once again one to sigh young's you see a whole hammer That's exactly where I was gonna go with it because I'm thinking Tim Lincecum, I'm thinking, and I say it a million times, Johan Santana, Brett Sabrehagen, Blake Snell has two. um If you go with the guys with the ones, Cliff Lee, Jake Peavy, Madison Bumgarner doesn't have one, but I'm kind of in that thought process of like, if I was to put one of these guys in the Hall of Fame, am I sure that I'm picking Felix over those guys and none of those guys are in, none of those guys are probably gonna get in
00:30:38
Speaker
And then you throw in guys like Jacob de Grom, too. Like, there's plenty of guys that have two that probably aren't gonna get really close to the Hall of Fame. out of the Out of them, I think the guy I would go with, Moses Santana, and I've pleaded that case a million times on here, I'm just not quite there with Felix. With that being said, I've talked a lot about how I would recommend voting for 10, and I've talked about that a lot. If this was a real ballot where strategic voting is involved,
00:31:07
Speaker
he'd probably be getting my vote this year. Spoiler alert, I'm not picking 10. So he probably would have gotten my vote to try to keep him over 5% because I don't think I'm quite ready to see him fall off the ballot yet, but I'm not ready to say he's a Hall of Famer either. So that's where I stand on feelings. I'm going to know as well for now. It's just sad now. It really is. Yeah. And a lot of these guys are like that. You're going to see plenty of guys that are going to make you sad when you scroll down this ballot.
00:31:36
Speaker
I was really getting to the point where these guys were, you know, in their primes when we were, you know, just really becoming fans. Yep. Which brings us to a retread fifth ballot, Tory Hunter, five time All-Star four, five, six, seven, eight, nine gold gloves and 353 home runs. So he's a guy we talked about last year, flirts with the 410, the 400 home run, 10 gold glove club like Andrew Jones has.
00:32:05
Speaker
Um, three, uh, 1400 RBI is just under two 77 batting average. Felt like he was the kind of guy who could do a little bit of everything. We all said no on him last year. I'm staying with that. He finished with less votes than Mark Burley last year. What do we think fellas? No. Yeah. No, I think we kind of went over this one last year. Uh, you know, he was a good player. He's another one.
00:32:32
Speaker
paul very good but hey yeah he's a Bobby Breu club yeah and you know again he nothing yeah he won a lot of gold laws and he was a very good was very good fielder don't get me wrong but I mean he you know he didn't stack compilation is not high enough despite the length of his career which is very long I yeah I can't it's just not he he was never the best he's right there not quite enough pretty much yeah I think he might have been my other strategic pick, but at this point, your five years on the ballot, at what point is strategic voting enough is enough. yeah It's a weak ballot. You're at seven you're at seven percent. What is it though? Might as well put him out of his misery.
00:33:23
Speaker
Speaking of putting out of his misery, another guy, will he get a vote? I really do. I love this guy. even though he's a division rival, Adam Jones. I'm not going to go through the stats really, but he did almost, he did flirt with 2000 hits and 300 home runs. He didn't quite get to either one and a thousand RBI. I mean, he had a good career. He belongs on the ballot, but I think he's going to be a pretty quick no across the board. If anybody has an argument for him, I'd love to hear it.
00:33:52
Speaker
I would just like to say that I always respected Jones. I thought he was a very smart guy. And if you ever listen to his interviews and stuff, he always seemed to know what he was talking about. And he was a good player for a decent amount of time, despite being on divisional rival. And I will never forget that catch that he had.
00:34:11
Speaker
ah Team USA, center field in the World Baseball Classic, robbing teammate Manny Machado of the home run. I reached up over that wall. What a massive catch. I vividly remember that catch and probably will always remember that catch. They show replays of it every time there's a World Baseball Classic, as they should. um But yeah, the guy's not a Hall of Famer. But I always remember that moment and I'm very thankful for that moment.
00:34:35
Speaker
I definitely represented the O's very well as a franchise. It it kind of makes me wonder. i know Yes, he did represent that team very well when they were very bad. Yeah, do you think they retire his number? I'm not sure if he's good enough, but... Let's go through that. but That's actually a great question. I didn't expect to go there, but I like it. um Their retired numbers looks like it's pretty much all Hall of Fame, guys. So no.
00:34:59
Speaker
So it might be a team that has that rule. I don't know if I would retire his number. Don't forget, the Yankees retired Polo and Niels number, which I love the guy, but come on. We're very liberal with retiring. If the Yankees retired Brett Gardner's number, I would say maybe the Orioles would do it. But yeah, no. ah i mean this is I mean, he is he is he is the Orioles Brett Gardner. Yeah, I think it's an objective sense. like it's Sorry, it's a subjective sense depending on your team. Here are the names that are retired numbers for the Orioles.
00:35:29
Speaker
Frank Robinson, Brooks Robinson, Earl Weaver, Jim Palmer, Eddie Murray, Calerkin Jr., Jackie Robinson. Oh, yeah. Nevermind. Okay. Not happening. Yeah. But on the right time, that could have been, which takes us to the other Jones. So last year we did our ballots, right? And we all picked four guys unanimously. Three out of three got over the 75% put them in the hall of fame. And that was Adrian Beltray.
00:35:59
Speaker
Joe Maurer, Todd Helton, all got in the Real Hall of Fame, and won holdover, and that's Andrew Jones. Has 61.6% on year eight. Didn't really grow much last year, but we've talked about the 410-Go Glove Club. He is in it, very exclusive. Nolan Oranato's gonna be joining that pretty soon, um but he only grew about 2.5%, or 3.5% last year. So it's not gonna be a steady, and ah fast climb, it's gonna be a long route. Did we all stick with him, though? I did. Yeah, of course. I still find it blasphemous, he's not in it, and doesn't seem to be on track to be getting into it. I think he's gonna end up getting into it, but I think he's gonna need that 10th year urgency in 2027. It seems like these guys will be kind of lax. Like, look at Billy Wagner. We have 10 votes already in the ah the tracker.
00:36:58
Speaker
Wagner's nine for 10, he already gained two no's, became yes's, and he' he's already, I think, one for one or two for two with the first time voters. So it seems like the writers wait for the 10th year to then finally throw the the pity vote there, and then the guys get in. Why they don't just delay, you know, avoid delaying the inevitable? I don't know. Yeah. Because they're bad at their jobs. They are. Yeah.
00:37:24
Speaker
It's crazy. Ever since you told me that stat years ago, I've always thought he should be in, so. Yeah. I mean, I feel like the more people that get it, the less luster it has. And I think Nolan's about to get there. Jim Edmonds came pretty close. Um, and Tory Hunter came pretty close as we talked about, but to actually get it, I think that does matter. Yeah. Moving on to another first belt guy. We have a string of first belt guys, four of them.
00:37:54
Speaker
And they're all probably better than you may have thought or may have remembered. First one's Ian Kinsler. Now, did I vote for Ian Kinsler? No, I did not. But he definitely belongs on here. 54.1 war, which is more than I would have imagined. He he actually had 1,999 hits. So if he was to get in, he would be making BBWA history as the first guy in decades to get in under 2000 hits. Andre Jones will probably beat him to that, but that's beside the point. Only a 107 OPS plus, but he's another guy who just felt like he was good at everything, not really great at anything. Just kind of a little eulogy for Ian Kinsler's career. um But what do we think, guys? Yeah, um obviously no, but very solid. I think when we were kids too, he had his better years with Detroit. I always saw him as a really good fielder, somehow only wanted to go gloves. I thought he was better than that.
00:38:53
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I did go now. Josh. That's funny. You say he had better years with Detroit. I always saw him as a ranger. Um, I saw him as a ranger too yeah then created it straight up for Prince Fielder. Yeah. just I mean, second base is obviously a pretty weak position. And, uh, he was one of the better second baseman of the late 2000s, you know, 2010s era.
00:39:20
Speaker
um Does that make him deserving of the whole fame? No, no, not even close. yeah Got a decent war though, but not quite good enough. See, that's what I like about these, though, is that sometimes you get to look and say, hey, it's that guy. And that that was him for me. And so was this nest guy and this next guy. And it was Russell Martin.
00:39:44
Speaker
Well, hey, look at that ex Yankee, right? And we have another ex Yankee coming after him. Don't worry. Uh, but honestly, a really solid career. He's a guy who I thought in 2008, when he made his second all-star appearance, I believe he started both all-star games that this guy might have a shot. Um, just cause of like the lack of, you know, catchers that get in the hall of fame and that he was two all-star games in at age 25.
00:40:08
Speaker
Uh, ultimately did not last, but he did have four All-Star appearances. He got MVP votes in three seasons. Good career. Um, some of the saber metrics, some people actually back up his case a little bit more. I'm interested to see if he gets 5%. I don't think he will, but he's somebody that the right saber metric nerds will back up. So now I'm assuming neither of you voted for him. No, I'm sorry.
00:40:38
Speaker
If anybody has any kind words to say. I actually, uh, oh, uh, no, not kind words. Actually, I was going to go the exact opposite. I remember him being an absolutely terrible Yankee. And if you actually look, if you look at his numbers, his worst years were with the Yankees. They were. He was way better with the Dodgers and it became a Yankee and he was awful. I mean, when the Yankees got rid of him after his second year, he had two 11. Oh, that's horrible. I remember your starting catcher. Yeah. That's real bad.
00:41:08
Speaker
I remember it was horrible, but as a Dodger, he was very, very solid. I i actually remember him going to Pittsburgh, I said, and i and playing well. And I'm being like, where, where was this bid? Like, where was this? Yeah, I don't, I don't get it. I, you know, I guess you couldn't handle New York. I don't know. But no, the guy's not a whole family ride. This is honestly one to me where it's kind of a head scratcher of like, I don't even know why this guy's on the list. Because he's a catcher, maybe. I don't know.
00:41:34
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah I was borderline on if he was going to make it. But if he's on this list Jose Trevino should be on this list. That might make me throw up. We got to play ten years first but yes that's a possibility.
00:41:50
Speaker
Another catcher another former Yankee Brian McCann. Little bit bit of of a better case in my opinion than Russell Martin. Bang bang. Six silver sluggers a catcher.
00:42:02
Speaker
behind Mike Piazza and Pudger Rodriguez. He's tied with Lance Parrish, who you can argue belongs in the Hall of Fame, um but hasn't been in yet. He's also a sneaky seven time All-Star. So really good career that you may not have expected him to have that many accolades. It was a career 262 hitter. And as Josh wants to remind you, he was on the 2017 Houston Astros.
00:42:33
Speaker
Uh, 282 home runs, a thousand runs about it. And again, he's a catcher, 1590 hits. I know Josh, your opinion. So I'm not even going to ask you. i'll start fact It's, um, you know, it's good career. I did go. No, but I just want to say this is when war makes no sense to me. Cause Russell Martin, I think has like what eight or nine points more war. And I just don't understand that at all.
00:43:02
Speaker
Let's see, what was his career war again? I'm trying to pull that up. The Kansas is 32. Yeah, catcher wars tend to be under-inflated a lot. you mean And I feel like second baseman war tends to be over-inflated a lot. But Bruce Warren has a 38.9, and he has less hits, less home runs, like a lower batting average. Like, it just makes it make sense. They probably credit him more with the pitch framing. Oh, Jesus. Yeah.
00:43:32
Speaker
I went no, but very, very decent solid career. Um, I did it. Honestly, I kind of liked him as a Yankee, but I wonder to see what Sherman has to say about his game. Go ahead, Josh. Oh, you want to hear what I got it today. I, you know what? I remember when the Yankees got him in 2014 and I was thinking this is going to be like our next great catcher. Like this is going to be the next passata for this team. And I think desperately needed after schmucks like Russell Martin ruined it. Cause he was good. I mean, he was really, really good on Atlanta. I mean, really good. I mean, this was the guy that if you were drafting a fantasy team, this was the guy at the top of the list for catchers. Yeah. His possible Hall of Fame career went to die the second he signed that contract with us. And he, yeah, and he went to the Yankees and he just imploded. He imploded his batting average tank and it just never got better.
00:44:32
Speaker
And then he, you know, bang, bang, went to the Astros. Do I think he was a Hall of Famer aside from that? No, absolutely not. And am I gonna vote for him because of that? Also, no, absolutely not. Yeah, I'll agree with your first part. He's not a Hall of Famer no matter how you slice it. No. My question is, does he get 5% and that's what remains to be seen? and Hopefully not. This is a fun one.
00:45:01
Speaker
Dustin Pedroia. Oh, oh, I just want to hijack this really fast. Can we go first on this one? Shout out Mike. This one's for you buddy. Why do you want me to go first on this one? Oh, no reason. Go ahead. What do you mean? No, I don't, I don't, I really don't know why you want me to go first. You don't, you don't get it. You haven't done the comp to ugly at all. You haven't.
00:45:30
Speaker
No, I haven't actually. No, Zachy. That's a good idea. No. well I mean, I know that it's way lower. Like, it's not even funny. Honestly, ah my opinion of Dustin was the same fold as David Wright, a regretful May. So I didn't really think to do the comp, to be honest. But I'll take a look at this comp. Let's do it. I'll pull it up. Keep talking. Dustin Pedroia.
00:45:57
Speaker
Yeah. I was going to say he, I mean, I know you're voting for us, Pedroia, because he hit two 99 for his career. And I know how much you've loved guys that hit for average. Oh, no, no, no. I am not voting for Pedroia. My argument is that I said no. And I was going to see. My argument is that their numbers are kind of comparable, same amount of hits. Um, he has a higher number. So here's the thing. He has 80 less hits in 430 less games.
00:46:25
Speaker
OK, and then look at everything else. OK, he is on less home runs, about 300 less runs batted in, has a higher batting average, but a smaller sample size, a slightly higher on base. Utley has a higher OPS slugging and OPS plus with the 400 more games and about 1,000 more plate appearances. um So it's really batting average versus everything else. Utley has two more All-Star appearances, but Pedroia has an MVP. Yeah.
00:46:56
Speaker
I'd lean Utley over Pedroia, but I'm ah i'm a no on Pedroia. Utley is to be determined. Does anybody have anything else to say about the laser show? I would just like to say, aside from Utley's war being somewhat higher than Pedroia's, that I, despite despising the Red Sox, liked Pedroia.
00:47:25
Speaker
I enjoyed how he spoke to the media because he didn't, he gave, no, he kept no prisoners. I vividly remember one of my favorite ever interviews was after a game that Boston got the absolute crack picked out of them and they were grilling Pedroia in the clubhouse after the game and Pedroia's turn around and went, why are we doing this? What do you want what do you think I'm going to say to you guys? We just got absolutely killed. I want to go home. Don't you want to go home? Cause I want to go home.
00:47:55
Speaker
but Absolutely, absolutely fantastic interview. I'm sure that'll lose him a couple of votes. You know, baseball writers, you know, a little butt hurt there. But that being said, injuries derailed this man's career. Very similar to David. David Chotto derailed this man's career. Well, yes. Injury injuries derailed his career. ah His career was way too short.
00:48:21
Speaker
to be in consideration and yeah if he kept playing he would be a Hall of Famer, you might maybe even a first ballad Hall of Famer. He probably would have had 3000 hits instead of his career ending at the age of 33. Despite his comeback attempts at 34 and 35. Just want to point out Pedroia has 300 more hits in Buster Posey. So stay tuned for that combo.
00:48:47
Speaker
Well, Posey gets... Posey is positionally. That's different. But I don't... I can't vote for Pejoraya. I respect the hell out of the guy. I think he was a great player, but he did not have a long enough career. Or a good enough career, even with the MVP. To be a whole family, sorry. Fair enough. That was my argument, Pejoraya. I had a better... I might have had a better peak when the MVP. So I'm voting... Obviously, no, but...
00:49:15
Speaker
Again, that that just proves my only point, but I guess we'll get there when we get there. So, so far we're very chalk. The only change so far is Zach voting for Beltron. Possible change candidate here, especially with the ballot thinning out a little bit, Andy Pettit.
Impact of Controversies on Hall of Fame Candidacy
00:49:33
Speaker
Now, I think he's a better candidate than Burley, despite a higher ERA. However, he does have the HGH ties, which he admitted to doing after his name in the Mitchell Report.
00:49:45
Speaker
has a higher whip than burly also pitched in the alleys during the steroid era big game pitcher got it done when it mattered all the time it's funny because last year all three of us voted no mike our loyal listener and boston red socks die hard thinks we're crazy what yeah he thinks we're crazy i've had this argument with him several times i hope mike's listening right now because mean i will he He is a big Andy Pettit guy. yeah So he has actually less strikeouts than Felix Hernandez. He's in his seventh ballot, had 13.5 last time. I'm going chalk here, I still say no. But I came around a little bit more because of my lack of space ah you know lack of votes on this year's ballot. What do you guys think?
00:50:39
Speaker
Unfortunately, no, I'll always bring up the stat. I think he has like 12 game six wins, something like that in the playoffs. Like he was a really great postseason pitcher, but I did have to vote no. Sherman. You know, I got to stand on business. I love the guy very much. Did a lot for the Yankees, obviously a great postseason player. And unlike guys like Burley, he was actually inside on conversations despite not winning any. Yeah. have a Bunch of top five finishes.
00:51:06
Speaker
Uh, but yeah, I mean, I have to stand on business here. If you did star rides, I can't vote for you. So you don't even cross the line at pre-testing either. You're, you're straight out. a I am solid on this viewpoint and I will not, I will not waver. Fair enough. Another first timer. I'm going to, I'm actually going to change the alphabetical order just a little bit. Just bear with me. You'll see why I'm going to do two first timers in a row and then I'll get to the two that we're going to lump in. Cause I already know where we're all going with those two.
00:51:35
Speaker
but We'll start with this, Hanley Ramirez. He is a guy who I thought had better numbers than he actually has a 289 career batting average 847 OPS and a 124 OPS plus. That's actually really good. 1834 hits, I thought he had more. 271 home runs, I thought he had a little more. 917 runs batted in, thought he had more. 281 solo bases, thought he had more. He's another high peak guy.
00:52:02
Speaker
um I really liked Hanley Ramirez. He actually had a fun little interaction with my grandpa ah when we went to my first Yankee Red Sox game. My grandpa hated hated the Yankees to the depths of his core and he was cheering on Hanley and Hanley was having fun with him and the Yankee fans were not having it. ah So we'll always be thankful for Hanley for giving my grandpa a little thrill in the last few years of his life. But I just can't get there. I'm a no here.
00:52:28
Speaker
I'm assuming you guys are a no to, but if anyone has anything to say about Hanley Ramirez, floor is yours.
00:52:37
Speaker
Nothing. Oh, I was, I was just going to say, I do remember them. I'm, my um one memory of him was when the Marlins, you remember they rebranded at those black jerseys and the neon, um, like piping and all that, like the neon pink. It's when they got the new park.
00:52:51
Speaker
Um, I think they signed him in Jose Ramirez or, uh, no, sorry, not Jose, Jose Reyes for the Mets. And they they rebranded it and everyone thought they were going to be good and they were not. Yeah, no, that he was a face of a rough moral scene that was actually really mega talented. You have Dan Oglow, you had Miguel Cabrera, you had Mike Jacobs, Hanley Ramirez, Scott Olson pitching, just never really turned out for them.
00:53:22
Speaker
Yeah, i I'll be honest with you, when you were reading off the stats and going, I thought he had more than that, I did not. I remembered him being a good player with Florida. And then it was kind of like, hey, what happened to that guy that used to play shortstop for Florida? Because that's basically what the rest of his career was. Not good. Not good at all. Not good at all. It was very much a what happened to that guy kind of player. I mean, it his his numbers show it very, very much so.
00:53:51
Speaker
Oh, on the memory of Hanly Ramirez, he and Beltran actually hit home runs in the first baseball game I ever went to. Oh my God. Just a random thought. And it's just, I feel so old and disgusting.
00:54:04
Speaker
But yes, I guess we're all nose on Hanly then. Yep. I can reasonably assume we're going to be nose on Fernando Rodney as well. I don't know. I can't believe he's even on the battle i don't know why is he on ballot. He wore his hat funny. 3.8 ERA as a reliever.
00:54:21
Speaker
With 327 saves, I'm confused. And this is why no voter relievers. just Just know that he somehow he's going to get more votes than Roy Oswald did. I don't know if that's true, but shut it shouldn't be true he did have the same amount of Cy Young finishes and the same rank of Cy Young finish as Mark Burley.
00:54:44
Speaker
Just gonna throw that out there, guys. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm comparing apples to oranges. Yeah, I'm sorry. okay That's still just absurd to me. But this is why I don't vote for most relievers. Well, we'll get to that one. Yeah. I mean, we know you have a problem with relievers. We've gone over this one already. we'll We'll talk on that very soon. But right before we get to that, Manny Ramirez and A-Rod. I lumped them in together. That's why I did Rodney first, because I kind of know where we're going with this. There's no need to read the stats. We all know what they are.
00:55:14
Speaker
Zach, you're a yes. Josh, you're a no. I'm a yes. Anything else to say? It's a travesty. They need to be in the hall. Yes, we are. It's absolutely is. Oh, yeah. Such a travesty. It is. It is nice to not have to have this conversation as much now. It's not flooded all over the ballot. We have two of them. It's like a quick shot to the arm and you move on.
00:55:37
Speaker
So that is nice. Yeah. I mean, I could, I, I, you know, I could be convinced, you know, can that David Ortiz is in and he was a known cheater. Just kidding. I'm not going to be convinced. It's such a sham that David Ortiz is the whole family. And these two people should never be ever considered to be in the whole family. These two are never getting in. They have my vote because I go on field strictly, but there's enough people that eat are a little more forgiving for bonds. andortes and i would I would rephrase that on field strictly when they were cheating on the field.
00:56:06
Speaker
fine. I'm going by statistics and one yeah that one, i that one I can understand. again Now I saw them this hall of famers. I don't like, I feel the hall of fame is incomplete when inferior players are in it. And no matter what way you slice it, Scott Roland is an inferior player than Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez. yeah like not So ah that feels wrong to me with that being said, like I said, I mean, yes on it.
00:56:34
Speaker
But there's enough people out there that are open-minded on guys like Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, Pettit, and Ortiz that were never formally suspended. They are not going to open their minds for these two. These are suspended, in Manny's case, twice. In A-Rod's case, he got suspended after he already admitted and supposedly apologized for his wrongdoing, and then tried to double down by suing baseball. It's not going to happen. I i don't lose as much sleep over these guys as I do over Bonds and Clemens.
00:57:04
Speaker
but I do think they should be in.
00:57:09
Speaker
And it's worth pointing out that they haven't really gained any traction. Manny's this year and next year, and then we never have to talk about his case again. So they're starting to go away until Robinson Cano comes on soon. The other Rodriguez, who got two votes last year from us, only 7.8% from the writers. Francisco Rodriguez has the Second lowest pitcher ERA on the ballot has the most saves of any pitcher on this ballot, including one that's five votes away from getting in, has the all time record for saves in a season, and was flat out dominant at times. I voted for him as kind of that strategic voting last year. Did I vote for him again?
00:57:57
Speaker
Yes I did. And I added him to my list too. I'm convinced he'll be in. I think he belongs in the Hall of Fame. I hear the Zachs exasperated sighs. I tell him he did not vote for him. Yeah, obviously I didn't vote for him. Oh no, this is Bill Whitehall over again. I'm confused as to why he doesn't get more support, but I think Billy Wagner getting in this year will help. My only concern is that, like I said, with Crowded Ballot,
00:58:22
Speaker
with guys like Pedroia and Felix who might get 5%. Will Felix, will not Felix, will Francisco fall off the ballot before he has a chance to grow? He's gotta stay on this year and then after that I think he might fly up the ballot. Listen, if you're good enough to have your own nickname, you should be on the ballot just in general. Yeah, this is third round now and he went down from last year. So it's wild. but tough but apparently people just don't know baseball like Zach here okay so Zach what's the reason behind like because clearly Josh and I are in the minority right now because 92.2 percent of people ah the writers agree with you yeah and your answer can't just be I don't think relievers should be in the Hall of Fame that's that's such a that's such a 1950s out that's not my answer my answer is that
00:59:07
Speaker
If you're going to be in the Hall of Fame as a reliever, you have to be one of the best ever. And I don't think he is. Craig Kimball has more saves and more strikeouts. And I don't think Kimball deserves to be in. So I'm not going to vote for him. I'm disagreeing with that too. Oh my God. i In good conscience, I cannot vote for Craig Kimball when he comes on the ballot. I can't.
00:59:26
Speaker
because he hurt your fillies too much. I understand. No, he can blow and save for his whole career. I mean, i be everyone does, but still, I can't. Great Kimball had the most saved his whole career. He led the league in saves four years in a row. Great Kimball had the most dominant reliever stretch for a five-year period besides Rivera and Eckersley. i I think that's going to be one that I'm going to end up banging on the table for. I'm borderline right now, but I think that's one that I'm going to really come around on. I think we need to just take a clip of that, what he what he just said out loud, and just keep that in the back pocket for a couple of years.
00:59:56
Speaker
Because we're going to need that. Yeah. Me, me or Zach? Zach. I was going to say. We're going to need that. I saw young votes as a reliever. Now, four years in a row. Well, hear me out on this, Zach. So what if we tie it into the era that the players played in? Saves are a little bit different now than they were 10, 15 years ago. At the time of his retirement, he was fourth all time in saves.
01:00:23
Speaker
The only guys in front of him were Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, and Lee Smith, Hall of Famers. Now he's six behind Kenley Jansen and Craig Kimbrel. Kimbrel I'm a little more convinced about than Jansen, even though Jansen has more saves. But is there a world where, you know, saves are a little bit different now and are a little more common to get where K-Rod doesn't get screwed? Maybe. Like that's, that's a decent argument. I have to think about it.
01:00:53
Speaker
because when we're looking at this here, eight guys in history have 400 saves. The closest guy after that is a roll to Chapman. He's 65 away. He's probably not going to get there. The closest guy after that is Edwin Diaz at 225. What's Joe Nathan at? Joe Nathan had 377, who felt about by a couple of votes. I wasn't really against him either. But then the good side is you have Jonathan Pavloban, Jeffrey Rudin, Troy Percival.
01:01:22
Speaker
So, K-Rod's kind of sandwiched. You have the guys that are above him are Hall of Famers, and the guys under him, other than Dennis Eckersley, who was the starter for a bunch of for a chunk of his career too, are all not in. But I just find it hard to say K-Rod isn't a Hall of Famer when Billy Wagner is.
01:01:41
Speaker
Carers also better in the playoffs in his limited opportunities and Wagner was I can't I can't vote for both of them So I'm gonna stand on that I just I just don't mr i don't I don't I just don't understand how you can say that these guys aren't Whole Famers just because they're not starters because that that's easily the only argument you're coming up with here. I Just don't see I don't see your argument. It's funny because I was a Wagner voter last year I can understand more a no on Wagner and a yes on K-Rod than I do the other way around. See, the thing to me is that if you have accumulated this number of saves, you have to be trusted with the ball. I mean, you're not just getting you're not going to get thrown out there for 50 save opportunities a year if you're not trusted to throw the ball and get the outs in the most pivotal point of the game. When it's a close game and you need three outs. i just You have to be that guy.
01:02:35
Speaker
And teams do not let guys that are not that guy stay for that long to be a closer for a 15 year career and put up the numbers that he did and the saves that he got for that long. I just I don't know how you can say that the guy is not the serving. I don't know. i both hands Just because he's not a starter. Well said.
01:02:57
Speaker
I see the thing, the thing to me is that you look at it. I look at it like you look at catchers. A catcher is not going to have this gigantic war. He's not going to have 3000 hits because it's just not, that's just not the position. Right. Well, this is the position. He is the best of the closers at this point, baseball history. That word closer is a hundred years ago. It's not how the game was playing. Now they're a huge part of the game. And like I don't think they can be discounted because of losers.
01:03:25
Speaker
I'm really glad we got to expand on him, too.
01:03:30
Speaker
Because last year, I think it was more of the shock between you and I, Josh, that we both voted for him and we agreed with each other.
Criteria for Relievers and Pitching Achievements
01:03:36
Speaker
This year, now we're really kind of more on his case. I think that this is the guy to kind of expand. Last year, we kind of expanded on guys like Andrew Jones. This year, we really expanded on K-Rod.
01:03:50
Speaker
I asked to me, it's looking at things like, like the Yankees this year. What a guy like Clay Holmes, where if you don't perform, you lose your job. Well, this guy performed and this guy performed for a long time. Yep.
01:04:02
Speaker
I mean, the amount of saves that this guy compiled is like, yeah, I, this is like getting 2,500 hits. Yep. i'm I'm right here with you on this. Got me thinking, you got me thinking, but not today.
01:04:18
Speaker
We'll come back. All right. Well, at least you're thinking. and Yeah. Well, this guy got me thinking right here. Uh, we have about nine guys on the ballot left and Jimmy Rollins, uh, 14. I thought about that one. Oh, I'm sorry. I left. I, I believe I'm laughing too. Uh, 14.8% of the ballot. Can someone explain to me how he got almost double K rod ah because he won one MVP.
01:04:41
Speaker
and almost, he actually got more than double Tory Hunter. He won a singular MVP. He won an MVP, great. He for he got close to 2,100 hits, a 743 OPS, four goal loves, and a 95 OPS plus. I'm sorry, if you're a league below average hitter for your career, you got to win like 10 goal loves for me to even consider you. I'm a no here. i easy no I thought a little bit longer than maybe I should have because I was trying desperately to fill in my 10 slots and I couldn't do it. ah So I'm a no here.
01:05:11
Speaker
No. I'm surprised that he would bet against his own team here. You're so funny. You're so funny. I mean, I mean, the Phillies should put them on their whole of whatever thing that they had, like the... The wall of fame. The wall of fame. That's right. But I don't think they put it it, but I don't think they put guys there that aren't hole of famers.
01:05:28
Speaker
last night. No, they do. They do chillings on their Bobby Braves on there. Yeah. Okay. Then he should absolutely be on there and he did great for Philadelphia. And he's probably one of their best players of all time with ZA and it'll be Hall of Famer. Absolutely not. Not even close. I agree. Just to get what God knows. And I agree 100%. So just to get up to speed, because I kind of lost track for our hypothetical ballots that we're going to post up. Uh, I have Beltran, Andre Jones, Manny, a rod, K rod.
01:05:58
Speaker
Zach, you have Beltran, Jones, Manny, A-Rod. Josh, you have Andra Jones and K-Rod. That's correct. Wow, this is a low ballot so far. But we're gonna go up now. I was told I didn't have to use all my votes. You did not have to use all your votes. There's nothing wrong with it. C.C.Sebathia. Now, if you don't vote for this one, with all due respect, I'm gonna shun you and you will not be invited to my wedding.
01:06:23
Speaker
um I love this man. I'm so excited he's on the ballot. I'm going to try to go up to Cooperstown to see his speech. um Hopefully it's this year. It may not be this year. um Right now, i I think these next couple of weeks matter more for Cece than anybody else. Because I think last year, the mob mentality was what got Maurer just over the hump and has gotten other guys over the hump like earlier rather than later. And Cece right now is 11 for 11 on public ballots.
01:06:52
Speaker
really, really happy to see that. I didn't i expect him to get in a year two with a weak ballot next year, but he's doing well so far. He might get in now. Uh, did anybody not vote for CC here so I can ring your neck?
01:07:07
Speaker
Zach sounds a little nervous. No, good one. Good one. Y'all are funny. Um, absolutely. 100% yes. This man crushed it for us when he came here in 2009, seeing him and AJ, I remember.
01:07:21
Speaker
going three days for rest in the playoffs and never forget that stuff, man. um I did want to say I read his autobiography about one or two years ago. I want to let you know he was so proud to join the Black Aces. um Mike, I'm not sure if you know that group of players.
01:07:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. but So the African-American pictures, he won 20 games in a season and just started a few times. There's only 15 in total. Um, and he joined the likes of like Bob Gibson, uh, Ferguson Jenkins, Vitablue, others like that. And I think he is only one of two or three others that have 3000 strikeouts in that group as well. So, um, it was a really big honor for him. He wrote like a whole chapter about how much it meant to him. So that was just really cool to read. Um, and he's a great dude. I'm so happy for him.
01:08:08
Speaker
Yeah, he's someone who's overcome a lot of challenges. I mean, he when he lost his velocity, he learned how to pitch. um It was funny, he was one of the few guys who actually I felt was better when he was bigger, yeah kind of showing that like the stereotypical athlete body doesn't always work. Yeah, he was throwing all that weight around, so I was throwing in the upper 90s. Yeah. And think about all the left-handed pitchers of all time.
01:08:32
Speaker
2019 he became the third one to hit 3,000 strikeouts. 3,000 strikeouts is a magic number for me to begin with, but all the more reason, I think he should be in sooner rather than later. And so far, it's looking really promising for this year. I didn't expect this kind of a start for him, but hopefully that momentum keeps riding. I think you should be a first ballot hole fan, and I think it would be an absolute sham if he's not. Yeah. Guy was a fantastic player and is one of three pitchers to ever throw three left handed pitchers ever throw 3000 strikeouts maybe four of Kershaw can get his ass up there. I think he will. He probably will. He's really really close. He's only like 32. He's 32 short. He'll be he'll he'll make it. But yeah I mean that's a that's a ridiculous number. Yeah it it would be a ridiculous if he does not make it as a first ballot Hall of Famer. I'm glad we're all in agreement here.
01:09:31
Speaker
that's nice we can
Case for Ichiro Suzuki and Other Notable Players
01:09:32
Speaker
maintain our friendships okay each rosuzuki up should be in a s I means anything else to add here guys I mean come on ah I would like to add that if the Negro League stats count then each row stats from Japan should count and he has the most hits ever of any player to ever play baseball he should be unanimous Hall of Famer if you do not vote for him you should have your ready credentials taken away yes im only for that
01:10:04
Speaker
Yes. 60 even more. So that's where I think one loser will try to say, you know, you know, they'll withhold the vote for he has a lower war than a bore you and pet it. Who cares? I'm sorry. ah He has the magic number. He was a Hall of Famer, you know, five years into his major league career. I believe he holds the record for most 200 hit seasons as well.
01:10:26
Speaker
So that's something there, too. I mean, there's nothing you could say about each role that hasn't already been said. Came to America 27% guy. Came to America 27 and had 3000 hats. Yup. 27. Guys are retiring at 27. Yup. This is a no brainer for I think anyone with a brain.
01:10:52
Speaker
with a ballot that doesn't have many of them. And he'll be in the Japanese Hall of Fame, too, which is awesome. Yep. And he'll be the first Japanese player to make the this Cooperstown Hall of Fame, too. Wow, that's that's so cool. First one ever. Next up, another high peak guy, Troy Tulewitzki. We mentioned him briefly before we talked about Carlos Gonzalez. Finished with only 13.91 hits, 225 home runs, 780 runs batted in.
01:11:21
Speaker
What a shame, man. He was good. He was really good. For quite a while, for a very short while, I should say. What a shame. He wanted to be Yankee so bad, and he played five games. Yeah. What an absolute shame. I remember being so like, oh my god. Guys, we got Troy Tolicki. I know he was atrocious last year, but like, wow, this is going to be great. And he played five games. games. Five games, yeah.
01:11:50
Speaker
But a really, really good dog out to the pasture after that one. You're not wrong. Man, it stinks. I feel sad watching this ballad of just all of these guys like him, and like Pedroia, and like Hanley, and David Wright, and all these other guys. It just stinks to see. But it's a no. Yeah, unfortunate no. But he was only good, what, for like the four or five years, I want to say, in Colorado. And then the man, he was just going to Yeah. Before we go into a next person, I would like to open the floor to Josh for a moment. Because I really want to keep going with this. a and I would like to give you your yearly chance to make your sales pitch to the two of us. Give us a chase at least sales pitch. I mean, I say the same a thing as I did last year. You know, he doesn't have the magic numbers, but
01:12:47
Speaker
In that time period of the late 2000s, or early 2010s, he was the best second baseman in baseball, not named Robinson Cano. And I think you could say that they were pretty even at the time, and we all know what happened to Robinson Cano. He became a laughingstock as he left the Yankees to go to Seattle and then start cheating. Or, well, I shouldn't say start cheating because there's speculation the Yankees knew he was cheating, but he cheated.
01:13:11
Speaker
Obviously I know that that that holds absolutely nothing to Mike, because he does not care. I do not care at all. But he did. not and don't i anyway feeling like a dangerous Anyway, if you look at if you look at all these war, he is right there with all the other second baseman in terms of war.
01:13:33
Speaker
And I also point out that if they were using the defensive metrics that they use today, cause they were not using them 10, 15 years ago, Utley would have won gold gloves over the likes of Brandon Phillips and the other guy whose name escapes me at this moment. Cause those two guys won literally every year for about an eight year period and Utley had better defensive stats than they did, but they did not use DRS and all the other advanced defense defensive wars and statistics that we use now.
01:14:01
Speaker
So therefore I tell you that Ali was the best second baseman of that time period, had the war to be a Hall of Famer. It was a fantastic feeler despite getting no credit for it. And he was my favorite player growing up. So as Mike would like to plead us for all of his favorite players growing up, I will plead you for my favorite player growing up. Chase Ali, please vote for him. You're dead to me if you don't. All right, Zach. I'm gonna point out just just some numbers here. Kinsler has,
01:14:30
Speaker
About a hundred more hits than him only two less home runs in him and It's compo average. He's at Kenzler's at 270. No, he's at 275 for his career. So no, it's a no for me dog Yeah below is cancer cancer Oh 54 I don't know why that I guess war really means a lot to you, huh?
01:14:58
Speaker
I've said it but i said it before it's not mark i said it before, I'll say it again that I will say that war is the greatest thing ever until it stops suiting my needs. That's exactly what you did. I have said it i have said it out loud and I will i have no qualms of making that well known that I will use it until I can't anymore and right now I'm going to use it.
01:15:20
Speaker
ah okay and that's got yeah I mean he did really well on the ballot last year, you can't say he did it. He got way higher than anybody expected. Yes. You got 29% of the vote on his first year. That's pretty good for a guy that com doesn't have any of the numbers like you keep telling me. You're voting no on Kinsler and Pedroia. Did they have the war? Oh my god. No. Did they have the war? I vote no on Pedroia because his career was way too short.
01:15:49
Speaker
I stand by that one and I vote no on Kinsler because nothing he did stands out and it's war does not stand out. Utley's war stands out. And Utley was an MVP candidate for a short period of time. While carrying a team to a World Series. How many World Series did Ian Kinsler win? I think one. That's true, he did win one. one touch i didn I honestly did not know that. He did?
01:16:13
Speaker
He won with Boston in 2018. Oh, yeah, you're right. He did win one. Come on, guys. I did. I did. Oh, hold on, guys. He played 11 games. Not us. I don't think he he was not starting on that team, was he? I don't think it matters. no No, I didn't. No, I think it matters. i had but He played in three of the World Series games, and he went one for 10. OK. OK. And throw that shit right out the window. I would also like to point out, ah while while we're talking,
01:16:42
Speaker
talking about fly ah that utly hit home runs and what was it five consecutive games or he had five home runs in one series I'm sorry, it's not enough. It's going to be a no for me. Josh.
01:16:58
Speaker
world series against the yankees in two thousand and nine
01:17:03
Speaker
josh
01:17:05
Speaker
So let's review. You might have to uninvite myself to your wedding, Mike. Let's talk here. So Chase Utley is 11th on the ballot in games played, OK? That's fine. He's 13th on the ballot. Again, this is not a compare him to everybody else thing. This is a second baseman thing. Oh, don't worry. I'm getting to that. Oh, I did. I'm getting to that. No, Jack. So he's 13th on this ballot and at bats.
01:17:32
Speaker
Now, that's fine, but that should mean his rate should be on the higher end, right? He's 14th in the ballot in batting average. um Actually, 13th, because K-ROD. For some reason, K-ROD's on here. So, I will say 13th, because for some reason, K-ROD's above him. He is 9th on the ballot and on base. Has a lower on base than Hanley Ramirez and Troy Tiwicki, but did play more games. Okay, fine.
01:18:00
Speaker
chase at least 11th and slugging not a 10th not counting k-rod um has the same slugging percentage over his career as Curtis granderson and played less games than him. O.P.S. he's 11th and O.P.S. tied with andrew jones that's actually pretty nice um so he would be overall a 10th because again k-rod Ops plus he is ninth or eighth with the k-rod factor has a slightly lower ops plus than Troy to Lewicki and Hanley Ramirez Okay. Now, let's go to the second base numbers. We're talking about war your favorite stat Chase Utley is 15th among second baseman There are 20 Hall of Famers in that position and he is the fourth
01:18:47
Speaker
fifth non Hall of Fame second baseman that is in. So Lou Whitaker has 75.1, Bobby Grich has Cano has 68.1, Willie Randolph has 65.9, and Chase Utley has 64.5. So if Chase Utley has ah the fifth highest war among second baseman, not in the Hall of Fame, we can assume Robinson Cano is not gonna make it. If you wanna take that out, we still have Whitaker, g Grich, and Randolph.
01:19:14
Speaker
For War 7, he's 2nd, outside the whole fame behind Kano only. With Jaws, he is 12th all-time in Jaws for 2nd baseman, behind Kano and Bobby Grich. So, the war numbers are there, but they don't tell the full story because there are 2nd baseman that are not in and didn't do well on the ballot that are ahead of him. He finished well with 28.8% in this first ballot. Here's where I stand. In reality,
01:19:45
Speaker
I'm a no. However, Josh, I didn't use all my spots. Oh my god. Would you like a pity vote? I'll take the pity vote. You'll take the pity vote. You got the pity vote. and I'll put you something on. Why not? Oh, Mike, thank you. I will come to your weddings. I'm not going to yours. Sorry.
01:20:02
Speaker
but all right in all seriousness, I mean, if you look at the war and the jaws and all this stuff, Ali is smack dab in the middle of, of all the hall of famers that played the position. And the few guys that are above them, yeah, some of them could be in, some of them shouldn't be in. We all know Kenochi and he's never going to get in.
01:20:24
Speaker
I just, I think that the career that he had, especially when you take to take into account his peak, because a lot of the guys that he's around did not have the peak that he had. At least peak was better. That's what I think and push out lay in. And you think about the world series and his performance in that and just basically, and simply the time that time ah in the 2000 second base was ah a really bad position.
01:20:52
Speaker
Yeah, I mean it's kind of the anti Felix Fernandez argument because Felix we listed a ton of guys that were comparable And we don't know that are gonna snip the Hall of Fame that we're not so sure Hernandez head and shoulders above I can kind of get behind that positional argument in an object of sense Do I still feel like I'd be banging on table for Shea Sutley? No, what I'd be giving him my vote if you didn't have this ever-dying love for him no, but I I'll give you the vote because I have an extra spot on the ballot and I don't think he would be doing the whole disservice by being in it. Listen, I think he's on going me he's on the same track as a guy like Ronald is. He's gonna get a certain amount of the vote and it's gonna just slowly increase. Oh, he's on a significantly better track than Scott Roland was at this point. Oh yeah, I mean ah and as the ballot thins out.
01:21:40
Speaker
I don't see a
Debate on Omar Vizquel and Other Notable Careers
01:21:41
Speaker
reason why he shouldn't make it. And I've said it before, I don't think he's not a first ballot Hall of Famer, I never said he was. But, you know, four, five, six ballots down the line, yes, I think he absolutely deserves to be a Hall of Famer. He's the guy who has to grow next year. He's got it next year, he, like this year, he should probably, let's say, finish 35 to 40. With the ballot hopefully thinning out of CC gets in, he's a guy who's got to get to like 50% after 2026.
01:22:10
Speaker
could I would also just like to say, while we're on this topic, and it's it not like an ugly thing, and this is just a ballot thing in general, I don't understand this whole growth thing. The guy has a whole famer, he's not. I don't understand why guys' votes change like this. Okay, so generally I agree with you, and now it shouldn't matter. um But what ends up happening is something as simple as the ballot thins out. Guys have 10 votes. They use their 10.
01:22:39
Speaker
and And... Yeah, but are guys just using 10 votes to use 10 votes? I mean, is that what we're doing? Because if you're using 10 votes to use 10 votes, then you should be pushed off a cliff and taken your rights away. Okay, good. So Michael's saying his pity vote back then. Okay, you're right. So remove the pity vote. I don't get it. thank you i don't I don't get it. I'm not, again. Goodbye, pity vote. I like what things work in my favor, because they're working in my favor. But I don't, but it doesn't make sense to me. The guy's a whole family is not. Thank you.
01:23:05
Speaker
But here's the thing is that a lot of these writers are spineless cowards and they see a bunch of other guys make the votes and they're like, huh, maybe I'm wrong. And they do a little perspective taking. And in reality, you know, especially now with the, I think the tracker kind of helped or hurt in this respect, depending on the way you want to look at it. But now everyone's votes are public. And then once this, once the guys start hitting 50, 60%,
01:23:27
Speaker
the people come out with the pitchforks and torches saying, hey, why aren't you voting for this guy? And people, you know, they have an extra spot on the ballot. And I think it comes down to human element. You'd rather pick the guy to go in rather than not pick the guy to stay out. When he has a shot to get in, you get to be the stroke your ego and say you helped them get there. Yeah. All right. I'll take your vote. Thank you. No, he took it away. Sorry. No, he didn't. He gave it back. If you want it, it's yours. I have an extra two spots might as well use one of them. i ya So, and next year, you'll likely have it again because it doesn't look like there's going to be anyone coming on. kind And honestly, I'd much rather give my vote to someone like Utley than to give my vote to someone like this guy, Omar Vischel. He's actually on my Hall of Fame list. I can't do it. I just can't do it.
01:24:22
Speaker
Uh, he did 52%. He's now at 17%. I'm in that club. And that's also the anti-growth where, you know, people are like, wait, why are you voting for Omar? And he's a deplorable human being. And that's where that came from. So I'm a no, but talent wise, I'm a yes. I still couldn't put him in. I don't, I don't know. I know he's got a tonical gloves and all that. I'm just going to do it. So I voted no.
01:24:52
Speaker
I think talent wise, I don't know, this shouldn't even be a conversation. Gold gloves are great, don't get me wrong. But I i don't see how gold gloves are. Gold gloves are like and you know like whipped cream on the ice cream. They make it better. But it ain't it ain't the meal, you know what I mean? yeah yeah It's just, it's not, yeah that ain't that ain't getting you in the hole of fame, my friend here. And and this guy isn't even in the hole very good. like This guy's in the hole of average.
01:25:19
Speaker
But if you're, I'm saying a little bit short stop though, I think matters. You were considered by by the people who are voting and you for various things to be the best player defensively at the toughest defensive infield position. Okay, and if I played left field and then I won 10 gold gloves. I think shortstop matters more. What about center field? What about Andrew Jones? I have Andrew Jones in. I know you do, I'm just saying.
01:25:47
Speaker
I think that doesn't matter. I think you have three guys out the middle. Second base shortstop and center fielder, your three best fielders. So you're saying that just because the guy played a high defensive position and gold gloves, you should be in the hall of fame. I can't get... Yes, because the best defensive players are playing that position and you were the best of the best at that position for 11 years. Yeah, but you're not going to make the league if you're just a defensive player. Nowadays, no.
01:26:18
Speaker
in the past yes and we're still going by that past precedents yeah but like this guy was competing in the game Eric Jeter a rod a prime no more Garcia para Miguel Tohada to say your whole favor because of that I can't I I didn't vote for him because of other reasons but I I can get behind i don't like your other reasons I mean, I can get behind the idea that he's not a Hall of Famer on the field and that's my excuse to not vote for him, but I'll be honest. My rule with the list is that once they're on, I can't take them off. I put them on one day. It might've been an error of judgment. I'm not going to change it now with the real Hall of Fame.
01:26:56
Speaker
But I'm not giving him my vote now. I'd much rather give my vote to someone like Utley in that respect. Well, I just like I just like to welcome that on. Thank you. I'd like to point out that on the skills of the skills case here. The only reason I think that he's even sniffing anything. I don't want to offer it because he played for 24 years. Right. I mean, he's not you know, that hits number drops a lot. His whole run number doesn't change because he didn't hit any. I mean, the guy wasn't even driving in runs or anything.
01:27:25
Speaker
wasn't Like stealing a lot of bases or nothing stole, you know respectable amount I Just I don't yeah, I don't I the guy's only redeeming quality is gold gloves and I just to me that's nothing Sorry, that's they like that it's whipped cream on the ice cream. It's a very sorry, but it's not it's not the meal. It's a very fair point and percent agree I Don't necessarily agree with it, but it's a fair point. I agree with him Thank you, Zachy. I do, 100% agree with you. All right, maybe I won't come to your wedding. Just wait till Wagner. He won't. All right, thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Great segue, but I think judging from who's left on here, we have three guys left. I think it's best we save Wagner for the end because of the other guys here. David Wright, 6.2% last year. I don't see a scenario
Billy Wagner and Hall of Fame Voting Results
01:28:10
Speaker
where he stays on this year because of the amount of guys coming on that are going to flirt with the 5%.
01:28:15
Speaker
Um, we talked to him last year, wax poetic there. If anybody has anything to say, feel free. Sad. No hate to see him go though. Yeah. I think he's gone after this year. I mean, the same thing we said last year. It's a absolute travesty, the injuries for him and the way the well-pun treated him, telling him they were in a build team around him for years and years. And they did lose squat. I know he's a great player, did not have a long enough career.
01:28:39
Speaker
It's a shame. I really liked watching him play. Yep. He was one of the guys you pay to go see. He was the only guy on that team you paid to go see. Yep. And the last guy on the list before we get to Wagner, the way the committee works is that when all the guys who played 10 years and they're tired of five, they have six guys decide are they good enough to be on the ballot. And if two guys say yes, you get on here. So two guys out of six said yes to all these guys.
01:29:08
Speaker
Ben's Oberst. If I was a guy on the screen, I probably would have given the thumbs up to be on the ballot knowing full well, he's not going to get more than like two votes here. Um, but had a lot of memorable memories, broke the Cubs curse. And I think someone from the Cubs team has to eventually get in. I just think it's going to take 50 years for that to happen. And I don't think it's going to be Ben's Oberst.
01:29:33
Speaker
someone from that Cubs curse breaker team. It's gotta to be John Lester. i got like I love, I love me some Lester, so it might be him, but definitely not Zobris. Someone's gotta like, you can't have, you can't have that team have nobody in. No, no, I mean, you can.
01:29:47
Speaker
yeah I don't know, like no one deserves it, but how do you not? That's very good team. They were 18 that got hot at the right time and they were banned to misfits. I don't know. Those guys are the most historic team arguably. And maybe since like, and then you go and look at a roster and you're like, gotta hold the hell this game. When, what was going on with the rest of the league? I can't wait till we do that episode then. Yeah.
01:30:13
Speaker
in 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, uh, like you said, it like you said about soberist and giving him a thumbs up, I probably would give him it a thumbs up too. And then I would have, you know, walked away from the voting table, opened up my phone, looked at his stats and then probably, uh, try to shoot my shot myself in the head thing. And what the hell was I thinking? Yeah. Cause holy crap. No. Yeah. Just no. And that takes us to.
01:30:42
Speaker
The final guy on the ballot, the guy who is five votes away from getting in, and in his final year of eligibility, and that is Mr. Billy Wagner. All right, Zach. Billy's mad self.
01:30:56
Speaker
Zachy, go ahead. because I can't. You know, I'm going to come back next year. I can't. I don't like closers. I don't like closers. I only like guys with 3,000. You can't pitch in the playoffs.
01:31:09
Speaker
they got rid of the double switch can't i can't do it yet do we have a magic number for yeah this is your worst chance buddy ah well sorry i don't think he's getting in um i gotta find the modern era numbers i mean you might not think he's getting in he's getting in i don't see why you at why he's not i'm not doing it i know you're not doing it it's horrible yeah i need help
01:31:39
Speaker
This is rough, man. this is This is worse than Bill White. No, it's not. I actually agree with Josh on this one. This is worse. I mean, literally, your only defense here is that I don't like closers. Do you guys remember when um we talked about Paul Skeens for Cy Young? Well, Josh and I talked about Paul Skeens for Cy Young. And I said he had a whip under one and an ERA under two. Billy Wagner had a whip under one for his entire career.
01:32:09
Speaker
Wagner's whip is the third lowest of all time. Really? Mm-hmm Behind Addie Joss who is the lowest era ever and Jacob DeGrom. Wow So I'm just gonna throw that out there. um I believe Post-segreg I don't know that this is exactly true because I can't find anywhere but post-segregation I believe he's has like the second lowest era of all time for guys who pitched more than 900 innings and I, he was dominant in the regular season at least. We won't talk about the postseason here until Zaki takes a look at that. But I mean, yes, I'm Billy Wagner.
01:32:49
Speaker
So I have him in and Josh has him in and Zach does not. Correct? Correct. All right, so let's review. Just to make sure I have everything right, please forgive me if I don't. Zach, you have,
01:33:06
Speaker
Carlos Beltran, Andrew Jones, Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, C.C. Sabbathia, E.T.O. Suzuki. And that's it? Yep. Okay. Josh, you have Andrew Jones, Francisco Rodriguez, C.C. Sabbathia, E.T.O. Suzuki, Chase Utley, and Billy Wagner. This is correct.
01:33:24
Speaker
And I have Carlos Welsh on Andrew Jones, Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Francisco Rodriguez, Cece Cebatia, Ichro Suzuki, Chase Utley, and Billy Wagner. So I have nine thanks to Josh's pity vote. Josh has six and Zach has six. Wow. We really, we' we're all kind of small hole guys this year relative to our own standards. Yeah.
01:33:44
Speaker
I don't really believe in the term small hole big hole. It's here either or you deserve to be in in or you don't and If there's more than ten guys in a ballot, then I'll have to rack my brain But there's less than ten vote for how many I feel Well, you want to worry about that just briefly for next year. We have Cole Hamels only got a chance Ryan Braun Alex Gordon since you chew Everybody's not the only know how we Kendrick but Nick Las Vegas. Hunter Pence. Gio Gonzalez. hope Matt Kemp. Jason Kipnis. Daniel Murphy. oh god Rick Porcelo. Well, they they haven't made it yet. They have to have two guys agree think out of the six. Matt Wieders.
01:34:34
Speaker
that weird Jeff Samarzia, Chris Davis, Kelvin Herrera, and Ennis Envokas. Oh my god. I hope Chris Davis makes it just just because. Just because. Oh, I'm sorry. Which Chris Davis are you referring to? Oh, is it Chris? Would it would ah would a K or Chris? would No, it's Orioles Chris Davis. Yeah, that's the one i'm I'm talking about. So those are the guys who have a shot to get on the ballot next year because they have the screening committee review them. Great.
01:35:04
Speaker
Josh, you have a good shot for me to keep my pity vote for you next year.
01:35:11
Speaker
And that wraps up our second annual Hall of Fame edition of Championship or Bust. I'd like to formally congratulate Andra Jones etro ah for a second year in a row. Itro Suzuki, CeCe Sabathia, Dave Parker, and Tommy John for being the Championship or Bust Hall of Fame class of 2025. Can't wait to do it again next year.
01:35:35
Speaker
congratulations a high fame And hopefully the writers can get a couple of those guys into but until then we'll be back next time within the regular World Series episode Can't wait to do this again next year. See you guys soon. Peace