Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 33 - 1929 World Series & Early All MLB team Debate
30 Plays1 year ago
Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove and Connie Mack! The boys discuss some of the most underrated all timers from this era of baseball as the Athletics beat the Cubs in this year's fall classic.
We talk current events- (around 19 minutes in) debating which Yankee reliever should close and who moves to the bullpen with Schmidt coming of the IL. Mac also lays out the All-MLB team picks and the boys debate the selections.
Follow us on twitter- https://x.com/TheCOBPodcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction & Historical Context
00:00:05
Speaker
Well, as the Billy Gold Tavern owner said, them Cubs, they ain't going to win no more. What's up, everybody? Welcome to the 1929 episode of Championship or Bust with Max, Zach and Josh. How you doing? It's been a while. Where should we begin?
Cubs vs. Athletics: A World Series Overview
00:00:19
Speaker
So we start with the losing Chicago Cubs, which will be a trend for a hundred-plus years and the Philadelphia Athletics winning another title. So we will move on to Josh with the game breakdowns and we'll get started. Yeah, so like Max said, Philadelphia Athletics, Chicago Cubs, the Athletics winning the American League by 18 games, the Cubs winning the National League by 10 and a half games. No doubt either of these teams, they're going to the World Series play against each other. So this was the first World Series ever played at Wrigley Field. My game went open there.
00:00:55
Speaker
So with seven of the eight regulars in the Cubs lineup being right-handers, legendary manager Connie Mack would only use right-handers for the athletics and lefties solely from the bullpen. So with his two best pitchers
Key Games and Strategic Moves
00:01:13
Speaker
in the pen, right-hander Howard M. Key got the start in game one.
00:01:19
Speaker
This was his 14th season at age 35, and Emke was not the pitcher he was when he was younger, suffering from sore right arm, and he really only pitched occasionally. He pitched just 54 innings in 1929.
00:01:32
Speaker
So in August, Connie Mack told MK that he was going to be released after the season and MK accepted the decision but said that he really, really, really wanted to pitch in a World Series game because he never had the chance before. So in mid-September, with both the league pennant races pretty much wrapped up, Mack told MK to leave the team, go on the road, and scout the Cubs for the last couple of weeks of the season and told him, you're starting game one, be ready. But Mack didn't tell anybody else. That was a complete secret until the day of the game and the athletics.
00:02:02
Speaker
Yeah, they had ah really some really good pictures available and the players on both teams were surprised that M.Q. was going to start. um But now that he's been you know watching the Cubs for a month and he's very well rested, well, M.Q. pitched a complete game and Alex won the game three to one, gave up no wonder runs and struck out 13 batters. Wow. That strikeout total broke the World Series record at the time um and that record stood until 1953.
00:02:30
Speaker
In Game 2, Jimmy Fox and Al Simmons went deep for the athletics in a blowout 9-3 win. Jimmy Fox became the first player to homer in his first two World Series games after also homering in Game 1. George Earnshauer would pick up the win with Lefty Grove finishing the save. After a travel day, George Earnshauer would take the mound for a second straight start just a day later, which is ridiculous.
00:02:53
Speaker
and allowed just one earned run. ah His defense and offense ah didn't help him out much. Two more honored runs crossed the plate against him, and Guy Bush held athletics just one run of their own. So sticking to his right-handers-only policy, Connie Mack started 46, 46-year-old Jack Quinn in game four, wow and the Cubs absolutely teed off on
World Series Outcome
00:03:15
Speaker
him.
00:03:15
Speaker
scored seven runs before Quinn was pulled in the sixth inning trailing eight to nothing the athletic seventh inning rally forever known as the mac attack where the team scored 10 runs for 10 runs this inning included an inside park home run hit by mule Haas or center fielder hack wilson lost the ball in the sun this would be the last inside the park home run till game one of the 2015 world series This eight-run deficit overcome of the athletics is the largest in postseason history. In the game five, Connie Mack went back to Ermke, who was a little less effective this time, gave up two runs in four innings before he was taken out. The game would still be 2-0 when the athletics got up to bat in the bottom of the ninth inning. Mule Haas would hit a game tying two-run home run, then a double from Al Simmons and intentional walk to Jimmy Fox. Bing Miller delivered a walk-off double, and the athletics would win the World Series.
Hall of Fame Managers: Connie Mack & Joe McCarthy
00:04:10
Speaker
Four games to one. Blowout.
00:04:15
Speaker
Imagine blowing an 8-0 lead. No. Unbelievable. That's crazy. Yeah. Connie maxed a goat, though. Absolutely. He did he outmanaged him. Yeah. That's actually a perfect segue, though, into Is he a Hall of Famer, because we're going to have a little debate on that tonight.
00:04:34
Speaker
ah between Connie Mack and the other manager of the Cubs, who we'll get to in a second. But first, we have umpire Bill Clem. Of course. Congratulations, Bill k Clem. Welcome back. um But we have losing Cubs and another huge name manager. um You guys may know him. His name is Mr. Joe McCarthy.
00:04:52
Speaker
So welcome to the pod, Joe. You'll be hearing his name a lot over the next few years because Joe McCarthy became the manager of the New York Yankees in 1931. He didn't win the World Series this time, but don't feel too sad for him. You're going to get real tired of hearing his name if you're not a Yankee fan. ah He had a career record of 2,125 wins and 1,333 losses. So a 615 win percentage. in He won nine pennants and seven World Series.
Player Performances & Hall of Fame Candidacies
00:05:20
Speaker
So I have him as the number two manager of all time behind a certain other Yankee manager who we will be discussing at another time. What? I know where you go with that one. You know exactly where I'm going with that one.
00:05:35
Speaker
um We have Kai Kai Kyler, welcome back. Not counting his DMP in 1927, this would be his second appearance and he went one for one, sorry, he went, ah he's one for one in the series. He went six for 20 in the actual series. One double with four runs batted in, so a 300 average with a 683 OPS. Just a reminder, I have him level one, number 25 in right field, below Sam Rice, Josh's favorite, and above Tony Oliva.
00:06:03
Speaker
We have Rogers Hornsby. It's his second and final World Series appearance, so happy trails, Mr. Rogers. Five for 21, a double, a triple, an RBI. Hit 238 with a 654 OPS. So he struggled here, but he didn't stop him from being the number one second baseman of all time in these eyes. We have Hack Wilson, second and final World Series appearance. So once again, Happy Trails, but he retires Ringless. He killed it here though. He went 8 for 17 with a triple. So he hit 471 with a 1.160 OPS. Reminder, I have him level one, number 18 in center between Jim Edmonds and Dale Murphy. Yes, I do believe both of them are Hall of Famers.
00:06:43
Speaker
We have our first new Hall of Famer, and it's Mr. Gabby Hartnett. So he's the only one on the Cubs. um But welcome to the podcast, Gabby Hartnett, nicknamed Old Tomato Face. So he is the winner of the 1935 National League MVP. Now, stay with me on this, because remember, he's a catcher, OK? Two top five MVP finishes, four top 10 MVP finishes, and he got MVP votes in 11 of 20 seasons.
00:07:13
Speaker
Mostly with the Cubs, he had a short stint with the New York Giants. So remember with catchers, their stats are usually a little bit lower than the traditional. Like Johnny Bench only has like 2,100 hits. He has a career in 19-12 hits, 236 home runs, 1,179 runs batted in, a 55.5 war, and he's gonna appear in three other World Series. Just remember, he's a Cub, so you can kind of figure out where those results end up. But is he a Hall of Famer?
00:07:45
Speaker
I would go yes just because of the error and all but that that's a really good absolutely absolutely for a catcher absolutely no question Yep, I agree. I have them level one, number 11 as a catcher um between Mickey Cochran, who we're going to talk about actually in a minute, um and Yadier Molina. So I think that's about right. I mean, the Gabby Hartnett was probably a better hitter. Yadier Molina was obviously a freak in the field. um But Gabby Hartnett was kind of looked at as a pretty good defensive catcher as well. So I think that's a pretty fair comparison. um Moving into the champion athletics.
00:08:23
Speaker
Connie Mack, as we mentioned before, fourth title, seventh pennant. Remember, he was under 500 for his career, but had a really good career. I have him third all time, just behind um his opponent here, Joe McCarthy, and just above Walter Alston.
00:08:40
Speaker
Eddie Collins. Welcome back, Eddie Collins. ah It's the first time he's been in the World Series in 10 years, but unfortunately he did not play. So if you counted, it would be his fifth ring in seven appearances, but I call it his fourth ring in six. But he's the level four, number four second baseman between Jackie Robinson and Rod Carew. Now we have some pretty heavy hitters here. We have four new Hall of Famers that we haven't already brought up. Would you guys rather start with the easiest ones or the hardest ones?
00:09:09
Speaker
It's too easy first. Easy first, okay. I'll knock out these two immediately. Welcome to the podcast, Mr. Jimmy Fox. Man, this is a good one. Oh, yeah. He's a very underrated guy in my opinion. He's looked at very highly as it is. ah He's a three-time MVP, four top five finishes, seven top 10 finishes. Maybe the best MVP stretch of anyone not named like Ruth and Garreg.
00:09:34
Speaker
at this point in our podcast. He led the league at home runs four times and runs batted in three times. He peaked at a 58 home run season in 1932 and 175 runs batted in in 1938. So I understand the saber metric guys say runs batted in or a circumstantial stat, but you still got to hit the ball.
00:09:56
Speaker
Um, he had a career, 2,646 hits, 534 home runs, which is 19th of all time, 1,922 runs batted in, 1,922 runs batted in. This is still 10th all time.
00:10:11
Speaker
and a 93 wins above replacement. I don't think we have any real debate here, but in this case, he won seven for 20 with two home runs, a double, five runs batted in. um So that makes a 350 batting average of 1.0810 PS. I have him level four as the number three first baseman, sandwiched actually between two modern greats. You guys know him pretty well. Albert Pujolz, Miguel Cabrera.
00:10:38
Speaker
So I think he's right kind of in the middle of there. it's just First base is so deep. Dude, I feel like, and I've thought this for a long time, Jimmy Fox is one of the best players that ever played the game, and I don't think there's any way I can say it against it. You just never hear it. You never hear this guy's name ever brought up. That guy is a no doubt whole affair. We're two batting titles, three MVPs. We want a triple crown. I mean, I don't know why this guy's name is not plastered everywhere. There's a real argument that he's level five.
00:11:06
Speaker
And I don't think it's a crazy thought. And it kind of reminds me several episodes ago when we had the discussion about Trish Speaker and I wound up moving him up. We were talking about the great centerfielders. I don't think it's and a crazy thought.
00:11:18
Speaker
I don't think it's a crazy thought either. ah i I would move them up. i'm I'm open to that thought. Remember, I mainly I've kind of been figuring out where the floor is to Hall of Fame itself. My levels, I'm still kind of fluid on. I'm not against that. I got to look into it more.
Innovations in Pitching Strategy
00:11:36
Speaker
I want to compare him directly to Miguel Cabrera because I really don't feel like Miguel Cabrera is a level five guy.
00:11:42
Speaker
but I think there's a discussion to be had on Fox. right and I think Miguel Cabrera is firmly level four. Is it just because he played in the era of Ruth and Gary that nobody really talks about him that much? I think that definitely has something to do with it and the fact that um Like i I mean, I guess I can't even say that because the athletics were winning titles. Yeah. I can't say it wasn't like they weren't known or around, but like even when you take out like guys in the past, like Hannes Wagner and Ty Cobb were like the big names before Ruth. Yeah. And then we had kind of this gap, but it just seems like the second best guy of those past errors, third best guy, of those past errors kind of falls off the.
00:12:22
Speaker
the history remembering. Trist speakers like that. Rodgers Hornsby has a little bit like that too. Even though like everybody who follows baseball history has Rodgers Hornsby in the upper echelon of second baseman ever, but it's not someone that's always brought up. And you have Napoli, I believe the name is pronounced La Joie, but we've never really gotten to talk about him.
00:12:45
Speaker
He's another guy where if you look at his resume, it's eye-popping and then we had guys like Grover Cleveland Alexander who have kind of fallen off that Mean yeah talk about them the first guys They never really come up and it's actually a pretty good segue to another guy who's not brought up a lot and that's lefty grove um So lefty grove is another all-time great. He won an MVP as a pitcher Now remember this is pre Cy Young voting. So he was a two top a two-time top five and MVP four-time top ten MVP Tons, tons, tons of black ink. So here we go on that. Ledleygan wins four times, ERA nine times, strikeouts in each of his first seven seasons. oh So he started in about 25.
00:13:28
Speaker
Um, but seven straight seasons of leading league of strikeouts, leading a whip five times, but because he started at 25, he has exactly 300 wins. Only 141 losses. So it's a whopping 680 win percentage 3.06 ERA. Remember he led the league in ERA nine times. So that's a, that's a good number for the era wow and 2,266 strikeouts. He also won the, as Josh mentioned with Jimmy flops, he won the triple crown in back to back seasons.
00:13:57
Speaker
man So, and that was right after the series, 30 and 31. So is he a Hall of Famer? Absolutely. Duh, right? In this series though, he was actually a closer. So he pitched in two games, didn't start either, but he finished and got the save on both. Okay, Connie Mac, man. So zero for zero, no wins. He only pitched six innings, zero earned runs, three hits, and a 10 to zero strikeout to walk ratio.
00:14:27
Speaker
but Imagine your team being so good that you can have one of the best pitchers in baseball history and Use them as a closer out of your bullpen because you don't even need them. Yep, it's insane But that was another move by Connie Mac because we really haven't gotten to talk about relief pitchers too much
Yankees' Current Challenges and Strategies
00:14:44
Speaker
Up to date, right? yeah feel like We haven't brought that up that often say they weren't used. Yeah, ever and they were only using emergencies or if a pitcher was really getting shelved and And he was no slouch in 1929, by the way. I mean, he went 20 and six with a 2.81 ERA leading the league. He had 170 strikeouts leading the league. He had a 149 ERA plus leading the league. He had 5.6 strikeouts per nine innings leading the league. Remember, strikeout numbers were a little bit lower back then. And a 2.1 strikeout to walk ratio leading the league. This was all in 1929.
00:15:15
Speaker
cutting back and just real smart about that stuff. Way ahead of his time. I had to actually read through it again because I'm like, how do you start two games? How do you play two games and only go six innings and only give up zero on runs? I thought he got hurt, but then ah it just, he got to save in both.
00:15:31
Speaker
So that's Lefty Grove, another guy who I feel like is really left out in history, and you'll see the guys who I have him with. Level five, we've kind of talked about him briefly when we talked about like where other pitchers are ranked, but I have him as the fourth-grade starting pitcher of all time between two other modern grades. I have Randy Johnson at two, and I have, I'm sorry, I have Randy Johnson at three, and I have Greg Maddox at five. So dominance across the board.
00:15:58
Speaker
Yeah. Now we get into the, I won't even call them tricky. I think these are pretty open and shut, but they're obviously, they're not at the level of those two. So we have another catcher who I mentioned briefly and it's Mickey Cochran. So welcome to the podcast, Mr. Mickey Cochran. Fun fact, Mickey mantle was actually named after him because he was Mickey mantle's dad's idol. So this is his first championship, his first world series appearance. He was a catcher for the athletics and the tigers for 13 seasons. He got MVP votes in 10 of those.
00:16:27
Speaker
He was a two-time MVP as a catcher. Wow. Three top five MVP finishes, seven top 10 MVP finishes, again, as a catcher. Career stats are a little bit lower than Gabby Hartnett. Career 1,652 hits, 119 home runs, 830 runs batted in, in about 1,400, 1,500 games. So is he a Hall of Famer? Sure.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. not not a question not Yeah. i I think it's a no brainer because like we look at guys that are catching with the low, with the high peaks, but low volume now, like your Joe Maurer who just got in or Buster Posey, Joe Maurer got 2000 hits, but he had the luxury of changing positions. Buster Posey has less hits than Cochrane. And I know we've talked about it on pot and off pot about how we feel about his case, but Cochran has more hits than him as it is with two MVPs. So I think it's pretty open and shut. I said before I had him level one between like above Gabby Hartnett. So I have him at number 10 and then just over him is Bill Dickey.
00:17:37
Speaker
And the last one, Josh mentioned his name a little bit. Al Simmons, welcome championship or bust. ah Never won an MVP. He did have a runner up and he had six top five MVP finishes, eight top 10 MVP finishes, 2,927 hits, 307 home runs, 1,828 runs batted in. So remember, Jimmy Fox had 1900 and was in the top 10 all time still. He has 1828.
00:18:05
Speaker
He had 200 hits in six seasons. And in 1925, he had 253 hits in that year. was Career 68.3 war. So just short of that typical magic number um was pretty funny because he was just short of the 3000 hit magic number as well. But is he a Hall of Famer? Absolutely.
00:18:25
Speaker
Yeah, these are pretty easy tonight, right, guys? Yes, very easy. I'm making them right nice and easy for you now. Thank you. Appreciate it. So in this series, he was six for 20, two home runs, that double, five runs batted in. So he did very well. ah He had 300 with a 983 OPS. I have him level one as the number 10 left fielder between Billy Williams and Tim Raines. So slightly more modern. Wow. And that covers is he a Hall of Famer? Pretty easy once tonight. Yeah.
00:18:55
Speaker
Man, all that stuff about like Connie Mac just makes me wish that managers were more involved in the game. I know it's completely not what we're talking about, but just wish managers had more input into their decisions and stuff today. Well, I think that's going to come up, and it has come up a little bit. I i mean, our big fan, Mike, friend of the pod, um say what you want about Alex Cora because I know you're hating him right now.
00:19:17
Speaker
but he was able to kind of finagle around with the bullpen a little bit. Like we saw Joe Madden kind of get a little flat for overusing a roll to Chapman, but guess what? It got him a title.
00:19:29
Speaker
So the creative managers find a way to get some presence in, and I don't think it's a coincidence at all that Bruce Bochy walks into Texas and wins a ring. Oh, yeah, definitely. So I think they still matter. I think it just, I think the the great ones find a way to, you know, still get their presence felt. Right. And then the ones who are in our puppets. Don't say anything about great manager to Alice Cora in the same sentence, please. Thank you. Oh, I know.
00:19:58
Speaker
Oh wait, wow, you and Mike are actually gonna agree on something. I don't think he's that good of a manager. Alice Kora shouldn't even be allowed to be managing a major league baseball. like they so Oh, Mike, what are you gonna do now? This is great. We gotta timestamp that just for Mike. Okay. That's awesome. He's gonna love that. Or he's gonna hate that. He's gonna hate that he actually agrees with you. Or now he's gonna reevaluate his whole stance. Oh my god.
00:20:23
Speaker
This is great. But no, I'm not saying, I should clarify, I'm not saying Alice Core is a great manager, but I'm saying he did very well in that particular postseason.
00:20:34
Speaker
Sure. Considering. yeah what it But when he was able to pull it off and, you know, there's been discussions about what the Yankees are going to do with Aaron Boone because we have no bullpen at the moment. So who's going to how like right now they're kind of shifting guys and having them practice in the bullpen and figure out what they're going to do. You have Nester who's completely pissed off about that.
00:21:02
Speaker
And Boone's going to now have to kind of channel that Alex Cora or that Joe Madden and get creative. What are you going to do? Right. I was going to do anything except hug the guys that start crying because he's not the one making decisions. that be real That's part of the problem.
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, Mac, you kind of stole my thunder here. One of my current event questions was, if you guys had to pick someone from the Yankee bullpen to close out games now, who would it be? I think there's about two or three easy answers, but what was your thoughts? That's a great question, because I do think it's tricky. Luke Weaver is the correct answer. Yeah, 100% agree. There's nothing tricky about it. No, there's one thing that Luke Weaver said that kind of skewed me.
00:21:48
Speaker
I think it was after one of the games in Wrigley Field and he said that he just kind of blacked out for a bit. when he was on the mound. I find that very concerning that your closer's blacking out in the September game. That was his first ever save opportunity. I understand that. That's why I don't trust him right now. That's something that should have been done in May. We got to give him the reps. I mean, it's too late. Holmes is done. You know that. So now you got to figure out, you got to do September to find your guy. And I agree with Sherry. 100% it's got to be Weaver. He looks great. Weaver, if it's not Weaver, you put Ian Hamilton in.
00:22:24
Speaker
yeah Those are the two guys, like if we're talking about current bullpen guys, um so but you're saying don't move a starter in there? not yes Well you have to, you have six starters. Right, that's the thing. And you're really only going to have three, maybe four, you know, in your postseason rotation. And somehow Brian Cashman will pick the wrong three.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah, I'm I'm on and off like I really liked at first the idea of Luis heel moving there. The problem is that he has the one issue that he has is his control. Yeah, you don't want to walk. You can't be walking guys coming in the bullpen with guys on base already. So I i actually think that's a recipe for disaster now. He's a starter throwing throw. There is absolutely. Yeah, I agree. I agree. That question should not even be entertained.
00:23:13
Speaker
I agree after giving it more thought, but that was something, you know, a month or two ago that was on my mind. I think now the starter to move is Clark Schmidt because he's used to being in the bullpen. He's been good though. I actually would rather start games. I understand he's been good, but at this point he kind of know, like he, he's the one that I think will have the most seamless transition because he's done it before. But you know, maybe, maybe you fired Esther up and get him upset because he'd been playing bad.
00:23:42
Speaker
like you know what i mean I do like that, but honestly, when Nestor's been on, he's been, he's been, that's the best guy on the rotation at times this year. yeah I think his peaks have been higher than Clark's peaks, but I think Clark's been more consistent. Yeah, I agree with that. The other thing is with Clark having that injury in the past, that might, I mean, I guess, do you think it would be more risk of injury as a reliever or as a starter? Because the starter, you're throwing 100 pitches every game, but youre you have all the rest time. As a reliever, you might throw 10 a day, but you may have to pitch the next day. hello Like Garrett Crochet was saying that he only wants to be a starter. right So because of injury concerns is what he cited. I don't know if that's really the reason or if that's what he said.
00:24:32
Speaker
but I'm thinking, you know, in theory, he throws less pitches, you can kind of contain the injury a little bit while having a guy who's used to being in the pen. I get it. but one one would think that ah Starter would be more cause for injury because you're just obviously more pitches and stuff like that and heal especially or not heal Schmidt I don't know. He's not on an innings limit. I guess but Right. I don't know. I would think starter would be worse, but you never know I guess that's what I think too, but I'm just that crochet quote kind of still stands out to me Look back at the trade deadline as to you know, how these guys kind of view it
00:25:15
Speaker
but they are they Is the pitching arm supposed to be like, you know, what they say about cars where they're supposed to drive long distances? yeah Or is it just not supposed to be used as often as a starter might typically go? Well, sure. If you had to put a starter in the bullpen, who would you pick?
00:25:38
Speaker
I mean, they already put Strowman in there. I would probably put Schmidt in there, and I would run. I mean, you're only going to use four guys, so you're going to run Cole, Gil. I mean, you payroll down so much money, you have to throw them. Yeah, you've got to get the starter. And then Nestor is your fourth starter.
00:25:58
Speaker
um
00:26:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that those are the four that I would use. I mean, they're not going to make it that far in a rotation anyway, so it doesn't particularly matter. Yeah, I don't know how far we're making the playoffs with the Pentagon. Well, the thing is, is that it the the pen is not as big of a problem as as it seems, especially if they're going to be rested and healthy and you're going to put the guys in that you want to put in.
00:26:25
Speaker
But if it, you know, if they, if it turns into a five game series or something like that, they're going to have an issue, especially with how, with how piss poor they manage the bullpen and knowing, knowing how it is all with the, you know, the, the analytics, they're saying, oh, starters shouldn't be throwing more than five enemies and all this crap, which means you're going to have to use the bullpen a lot. It's not good enough for that. They got three or four guys that can be trusted to go out there.
00:26:52
Speaker
yeah And it's, it's Kainley. It's an Appleton. I don't trust Kainley either. Really? At all. I think I understand the ERA looks the, I understand the ERA and stuff looks great. I, I need to really look at what his inherited run yeah ERA is because I feel like every time he comes in with people on base, they always end up scoring just every time.
00:27:15
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, I don't I do not feel at the bottom of the at the bottom of the trusted list. But I mean, it's it it's Weaver. It's Hill. And it's Hamilton. I agree with those. Yeah. um And after that, it's kind of just a crapshoot. And Mark Leiter should be nowhere one near the floor. Mark Leiter should be sitting on his couch at home. Right. But go ahead. I mean, the you know, the hope the hope here is that they'll get petite back and they can put petite in the bullpen.
00:27:42
Speaker
um And then you're gonna push one of the one of the other starters into a bullpen and then and you can use those guys and and hope that they can it can translate Yeah, but I mean what you're saying also about the control thing is that they put strumming the bullpen and strumming as a walk problem That's why I don't think Sherman's the guy. I don't think from is the guy at all I don't really want him to start or I don't I don't want him to leave. I don't don't really want to be on the team But I'm saying like I think that's a horrible idea to put him in the bullpen for that very reason He does walk a lot of guys, especially in the first couple of innings. Yeah, I mean
00:28:14
Speaker
i wouldn't I would not put Strowman in i would not put stroman in the middle of an inning, but if you have a starter that's going to throw four or five innings and you wouldn't put Strowman in the sixth inning and have him pitch six, seven, eight, I'm okay with that. yeah One time through the order, maybe two times. I'm i'm okay with that. I would not bring him in the middle of an inning though.
00:28:31
Speaker
Um, but I did want to kind of segue actually, because while we're talking about the Yankees, I probably stealing your thunder again. I actually, I apologize. why nogo and But rotation, honestly, I'm a little concerned about not even with the guys you think. And it's not about the season itself, but I've been thinking about this. Garrett Cole gets rattled a lot. Oh, man. Let's talk. Rafael Devers.
00:28:53
Speaker
And he said last week, you know, which I think it was for um some kind of either a Latin newspaper or something, but they asked which um Latin hitter does he have the most struggle with? He said, Devers. He said, Devers. Yeah. And less than a week later, he does that gesture to what he hits, Devers, I believe on purpose.
00:29:16
Speaker
then he Then he directs him to go to first base. like we don't know they They said Boone called the intentional walk. right I don't really buy that. But you see the motion of him going to first base. And then he has to pitch to him with the base loaded. So he intentionally walks him with nobody on.
00:29:32
Speaker
and then ironically has to face him again with the bassist juice. I think it was the only time I've ever rooted for a Red Sox to hit a Grand Slam off a Yankee in my entire life. I was disgusted by the way by the way that that was handled. I don't know who did that, but either way, Garrett Cole has to say, no way in hell am I doing this. And this but the first pitch a couple of years ago, was it Jimmy Kimmel who was throwing it?
00:29:57
Speaker
somebody was throwing that first pitch. i'll I'll find it, but he got so rattled from that. And the second he second his mind goes awry, he loses it.
00:30:11
Speaker
It's bad. We can't have that in October. It's so bad. I can't believe that. Like we talk about him as one of the greatest pitchers of our generation, this dude. And we were talking about, you mentioned Randy Johnson and Greg Maddox before. They would never walk a guy that they're afraid of. They'd go, Adam, Roger Clemens. None of these guys are intentionally walking someone with nobody on base. Yup. Unbelievable. Oh, it's Billy Crystal. We believe .22.
00:30:39
Speaker
Jericho is visibly displeased because the first pitch was taking too long yeah and so time got the lead saying so you're gonna be This rigid and the playoffs the start time gets pushed back all the time. Yeah No, thank God. We're not seeing the Red Sox in the playoffs or else this man would have another breakdown like the wildcard game It's it's really sad. Yeah, I Everyone call couldn't get g-man Choi out. Yep. That's another one. I mean, yeah, I mean I guess I I guess there are a times in your career where guys got your number but I I mean, if you don't let the guy get a hit, you better it better be ah you know better be a single. Right. But you know even if the guy is hitting 340 off you, see, I just don't i don't understand the point of Walking Devers. It's a 1-0 ballgame. And nobody was on base. If the guy hits a home run with nobody on and nobody out. It's 1-1. It's a 1-1 game. right i just i don't I don't understand the point of giving him a free pass because, yeah, the guy's hitting 350 off you or whatever. Well, yeah, OK, that means 65% of the time we're getting him out.
00:31:34
Speaker
yep right i take I would take those odds any day of the week. yep And if the guy who gets on second, and he doubles off you, he doubles off you. And you tip your cap, and you move on, and you try to get the next three three guys out. I just, Boone did not call that. That is a load of crap. And that is just them trying to cover for him. Because I remember they asked whoever was catching, I think it was Wells that day. And and Wells was like, I didn't know that was happening.
00:31:57
Speaker
That's bad. A terrible look for him. So now the problem is next time they play Boston and it might even, you know, you never know if they might play Boston next October, baseball changes a lot. Oh, he's screwed. Yeah. Like what do you, how do you even start him at that point? Yeah, I don't know. It's like, if that was, I wouldn't be able to show my face again. And this is the guy who was already gets rattled a lot.
00:32:22
Speaker
So you're going to have this guy be your ace in October. This is the guy who's going to have to go long innings in October. And he gets upset when Devers flexes at him a little too hard. As much as as much as I give grief about Marcus Strowman and why I didn't want that signing, I'd be hypocritical if I wasn't going to be critical of Garakol. Oh, it's terrible. It's a really bad look. That's a problem. Honestly, to me, it's a bigger problem than the bullpen.
00:32:50
Speaker
Yeah, I just, I'm really struggling. I can't think of a time when a, when, you know, a supposed, like, so he's the reigning semi-young winner, for God's sakes. He's going to intentionally walk a dude with nobody on base. I mean, yeah. Like, say what you want about Clayton Kershaw. I know you're not the biggest fan of him, Zach. I would never do that. Oh, of course I was not doing that. No. He'll sit and mope after he gives up a dinger. Right, right. But he's not, he's not going to, he's not going to cop out like that. No. I've never seen that.
00:33:14
Speaker
The only guy I can think of, like, you know, and they're even pitchers who have sometimes gotten in their feelings a little bit, for sure. Like, you know, you think of guys like Carlos Embrano, who was a great, great pitcher, but sometimes let his emotions get the best of him. ah Mike Busina had some moments like that, but even you think about when Joe Torre went to Poland, he said, I'm not leaving. Right. At some point, like, the great pitchers can kind of overrule a manager, particularly a lame duck like Boone.
00:33:44
Speaker
And he didn't. That's crazy. That's a problem to me. I do not the core of being like, oh, if we make the playoffs, too late let's make sure to thank Eric Cole. Like, shut up, buddy. You're not going to make the playoffs. Let's chill out for two seconds. He's got to hype up his team. i don't And now he's getting investigated because apparently he said something about hitting Judge on Perp or trying to get Judge. They tried to hit Judge. They missed. Yep. So he now he's under investigation for that.
MVP Debates and League Comparisons
00:34:13
Speaker
he's a schmuck all take out any he had a good series usual he got off scott clean he's a league doesn't do anything
00:34:20
Speaker
usual yeah
00:34:25
Speaker
Wow, yeah, Mac, you really stole. Those are my two big Yankee points there. I'm sorry, but it seemed like the perfect segue. I gotta give the rest of the league some love here, right? True, true. We can talk about, let's talk about the Mets. He's They have actually made a schmuck up. I think they have the best record since the All-Star altogether and break, right? Am I he right in saying that? had a good They're series. absolutely on fire. Yeah, it's unbelievable. Lindor is just crazy good now. I mean, I didn't, I'm never the biggest Lindor fan. He's having an amazing season.
00:34:52
Speaker
Remember when I told you guys two months ago that his Hall of Fame stock was rising? Yeah, his Hall of Fame stock is rising. Yeah, unbelievable team. It's freaking rising. If you don't have a 50-50 season out of Otani, this guy's your MVP. Yeah. You know, I really like Mendoza too. Much better than Boone. He's a cool manager.
00:35:10
Speaker
There's no argument here, though, about that MVP, right? Like, there's no way we could justify saying it's Lindor. I'm guessing not, right? No, it's frustrating because I don't want Shohei to win again, but it's literally like Shohei was like, oh, I can't pitch this year, so what's something I can get good at? I'm gonna go 50-50. Yeah, like, higher than I... been done in 120 years. I cannot, in good conscience, vote an MVP for a guy that's hitting 270 with 30 home runs when there's guys in the league.
00:35:42
Speaker
I mean, I would do it. I wish the National League was as good as them as the American League when it comes to hitters because like nine of the top 10 hitters in baseball in the American League. Yep. I i mean, if Lindor was in any was in the American League, they wouldn't he would his name would not even be mentioned in the conversation at all whatsoever. That's the problem with MLB awards. Honestly, I believe it should be one MVP, one Cy Young. I don't disagree with that. i It's just, it's the stupid. That's the way we've always done is that's why we're going to do it now. Cause if you look, we talk about the Cy Young finishes and the MVP finishes in Hall of Fame conversations. And then you go and look at the modern day guys who have gotten top five Cy Young's and top 10 Cy Young's. And it's like, what are we doing? Kevin Gauseman has three top 10 Cy Young finishes.
00:36:27
Speaker
hes not like good Lance Lynn has, if I think he has three top 10s and two top 5s. Top 10 doesn't really mean anything to me, to be quite honest with you. For Cy Young or MVP? Anything. Really? Okay. i For me, I slap a 10. For Cy Young, I can see that argument kind of being different. It's like, oh, I raised an eyebrow. Like, oh, okay, that's interesting. He was a ten he was one of the top 10 players, but when once you get to top 5, it's like, okay, yeah, this guy really actually had a great season. That's fair. Lance Lynn has two top 5s and a sixth.
00:36:59
Speaker
i'm not I'm really not surprised by that. Sonny Gray has a second, a third, and a seventh. Yeah, I mean, he was great, except when he was a Yankee. Then won but and he was the worst pitcher in baseball. And now they're both part of the binder, which feels gross. Yeah, I mean, hearing Sonny Gray's name, I had a physical reaction. I know. That one grossed me out, but I had to do it to get Johnny Cueto in, so.
00:37:23
Speaker
but But yeah, I mean, yes, Lindor has had a good season. He's had a great season. Has he had an MVP caliber season? Absolutely not. So can I ask you this though, because we're having the same conversation, outside of Otani, who is having an MVP caliber season in the NL if Lindor isn't?
00:37:40
Speaker
I mean, that's, that's the thing. Cause like, I would, I don't want to spoil it for the next episode when we do the unedited like playoff stuff, but like Cattell Marte is hitting 292. He did have some time out with an injury hit 32 home runs so far. Yeah. I could see him maybe, but the injury stuff is tough.
00:37:58
Speaker
Um, you have Ellie Dela Cruz, who I know we've talked off pod. You're not a fan of that idea. BC is hitting two 57. I like Ella Cruz very much so. Dela Cruz is not an MVP candidate. I know. I'm not saying you're a fan. I'm not saying you're not a fan of him saying you're not a fan of the idea of him being an MVP candidate, but he's going to finish in the top five. I can't get conscious. It's not for guys hitting two 50 as an MVP candidate. Sorry. Unless the guy is hitting 50, 60 home runs. No.
00:38:22
Speaker
But the problem is if you're a voter, you have 10 spots to fill. And we have two guys that will hit your standards. He'll get votes, but he'll get fifth place votes. Like you're giving Luisa Ryze an MVP award? No. I mean, the dude doesn't strike out. Are you giving Jirksen Profar an MVP award? Absolutely not. Right. But you know what I think?
00:38:47
Speaker
but Yes, Landora's had a good season, but I think there are better hitters in the league than him. And the one that really comes to my mind is Ozuna. But then you're goingnna you know you're going to crap on Ozuna because, oh well, he doesn't play the field either. He doesn't play on the field either. He's just a DH. And yes, Landora's had a good defensive season.
00:39:07
Speaker
I still don't know why that makes him an MVP. And every time you see guys talk about it on MLB Network and all the analysts and the managers and the players and all they keep saying is, well, he's doing it on both sides of the ball. That's why. That's what I, that's my reason. He's doing it on both sides of the ball. He's hitting 270. He's hitting 270. He's not even going to get 100 RBIs. He's hitting 270.
00:39:31
Speaker
That's all well and good. However, again, the RBI is kind of circumstantial. He has an 836 OPS. He's been the clear leader of the Mets who could have been dead in the water at this point. This was a team that wasn't looking to compete. Lindor is not the MVP of the Mets. Grimace is the MVP of the Mets. Let's be real here. Yeah, we can't vote for Grimace, so we have to vote for Lindor. Why not?
00:39:55
Speaker
because he's not on the ballot. So egg he's fat. he's He's purple. Just vote for Lance Lynn. Alonso? Oh, sorry. Vote for Lance Lynn. Yeah, I can get behind that. But he has 31 home runs. He has 27 stolen bases. So you're looking at a 30-30 shortstop playing elite level defense and willing his team to have a chance at the playoffs. They don't have a ah slight chance in hell at the playoffs if Francisco Lindor doesn't play the way he does. So if we're looking at the definition of most valuable, I'm not saying he's Otani. He's not.
00:40:22
Speaker
He's number two in here. See, that thing is that you can say he's the most valuable player. Otani won MVP awards playing on the worst team in baseball. So being valuable to your team means literally nothing. I'm aware of that, but that doesn't mean that you can't be valuable. They hold the most valuable player award. They should rename it to the best player in a league. Because it's not the most valuable player. It never has been, and it never will be voted as such. That's very fair, but I can still make my hypothetical vote be such. Your hypothetical vote.
00:40:51
Speaker
I can't see how Lindor is not at the very least a top five MVP candidate in the NL. Oh, he'll come in second. I have no doubt of that. He will be second place. I have no doubt of that. The only guy I can see besides Otani that has a slight argument above him is Kato Marte. Yeah. And they're not going to vote for Marte over him. They're not going to vote for a Diamondback. Yeah. And Lindor also has a back problem. He was playing every day.
00:41:14
Speaker
Of course he's got a back problem. He's literally carrying Jeff McNeil's ass on his back the whole freaking- And that's why he's the second place MVP of the NL. It's a ah damn shame that Bobby Witt is in the American League, because I feel like- Bobby Witt would be ah unanimous in the NL. I agree with that. My man deserves some love. But that's why- He's getting plenty of love, he's just not Aaron Judge. Yeah.
00:41:36
Speaker
Because I agree, Bobby Witt's season is not equivalent to Lindor's season. Gunnar Henderson is not equivalent to Lindor's season. But that's just how it ends up, because DNL is clearly weaker this year in terms of the high peak, high volume guys. But when we look at the all MLB team, that's where Gunnar will get credit, because there's two teams best at each position. Bobby Witt's going to come first at shortstop. Gunnar Henderson is going to come second at shortstop. And Lindor is not going to get that vote.
00:42:06
Speaker
So Gunnar will get that recognition, but I i just dislike the whole ALNL with awards. I am with you on that. Yeah. That's a good point. It should be one for the whole league. Yeah. And they're never going to change it because why would you change it now? And honestly, I don't know if I'd be for them changing it now. I just kind of wish it always started like that.
00:42:30
Speaker
So I'm just going to be old man yelling at a cloud on that one. Cause I think changing it just skews the whole historical perspective. Yeah. Like we stayed on the pot before the American league started handing out this award, uh, 10 plus years before the national league did so. But that was but also back before
Trade Deadline Reflections
00:42:48
Speaker
interleague play. And yeah, I know it's, it's the world series is and it was different, very independent. Yeah. Right. Um, I,
00:42:59
Speaker
last topic i had pre-prepared i know it's been a really long time since we did the pod but i did want to go over the biggest deadline winners if you guys had any on on your mind i want to put you on the spot see if you can think of any i i've thought of a few like in retrospect so far yeah like what you guys go if you have any or i can go first if you want interesting um i would say the yankees are a loser really Yeah, I mean, I mean, I like jazz, but I think they the bullpen arms didn't work out. And I think yeah's that's going to be the real ah real kind of legacy pinpoint of this. Didn't work out. That is another statement. I'm being professional here. The bullpen arms they got should have been left in the trash can that they found them in.
00:43:50
Speaker
Mark Leiter should not even be a pitcher in Major League Baseball, OK? He's been real bad, yeah. But I do think he's down in AAA, and he's lucky to be there. yeah But as far as winners go, maybe the Royals. Royals, yes. Bopen Storm's been great. I also put down Dodgers with Michael Kopeck. He's been unbelievable. Yeah, we knew the Dodgers were going to be a winner. Kopeck was the one that, you know, I could have seen the Yankees go on for and it just didn't happen. It's been lights out. And Padres, I also put with Tanner Scott. he's I think he's had like seven Narain saves since he's been there. He's been pretty great for them, too.
00:44:22
Speaker
I honestly haven't heard a whole lot about Tanner Scott and I just never, when I have MLB TV on, I don't watch the Padres much. Yeah. So I just haven't gotten to see a lot of it. The stats are good. You guys didn't realize he was doing that well. Yeah. He's, he's, I think he's seven or eight saves since he's been there. So, okay. Yankees missed out on those guys for sure.
00:44:42
Speaker
That's the guy's idea. Yeah, no. And I mean, I think Kyle Finnegan is arbitrary either arbitration eligible or restricted. So I don't know. That could be something. But Houston getting Kukuchi. Yeah, Kukuchi's done pretty well for that. He's done well. Yeah. Yeah, I've been watching quite a bit. And I mean, they they gave up a lot for him, but 5 and 0, 3.19 ERA, 0.94 whip. You can't complain. No.
00:45:13
Speaker
And if they win the title, that's worth it. Oh yeah. I think the Phillies have done pretty well with Estevez. They're closer now. They finally have a closer. Also, I'll add Baltimore. Because as much as I disliked Eflin's season for me, he's done very well.
00:45:34
Speaker
Let me tell you, the two guys they got from the Phillies, for they traded Austin Hays away to the Phillies. They got they actually DFA'd one of them, and the other dude, Sir Anthony, was their closer and is no longer their closer. They lost that trade. but yeah also got I was going to say, you also don't really know that the Dodgers got Edmund, who's doing very well for them.
All-MLB Team Evaluations
00:45:54
Speaker
Yes. I found this, actually, because you were talking about all MLB team, and I was looking it up. I found this article. The MLB.com actually posted a poll Um, and they do it every month of like who they think is going to make the team. So I found a few that just feel kind of weird. It's like catcher first team. They voted William Contreras, but second team, they voted Cal rally.
00:46:20
Speaker
Yeah, dude. I think he has like 30 home runs. He had a pretty good season. And Salvador Perez got votes but didn't make the cut. And then that makes no sense. um That's why I think he should. Salvador Perez. Right. I mean, Perez fell off. Don't get me wrong. I mean, Perez was hitting like 340 here, but you're telling me that guy. I guess his rally has 30 home runs as a catcher rally. Yeah. Rally's hitting two 13 30 home runs.
00:46:47
Speaker
So first base, they picked Vlad. And that's obvious. But first base is three less home runs, and he's hitting 60 points higher. That's ridiculous. Who voted on this stuff? That's the only thing I've ever heard. She was like, sir, I think they had they had a panel of experts. This was a panel, not just one person, because it was one person. I believe they have like 20 or so vote on this. But it doesn't say in this article how many they had vote. But it's been the same panel every month, and they've been very generous to CalRally.
00:47:16
Speaker
That's a little much man. Um, that's a little much First base Vlad Guerrero first team Bryce Harper second team that makes sense. Okay with that Yeah, Guerrero is another guy that if he was in the NL, he might he might have had MVP conversations with Otani He's had a great season. Oh, I so I can lose to Otani again. Yeah, pretty much Uh, second base they have to tell first and then I'll two days second. Yeah Oh, here's it. Oh, there we go. Short stop. They have Bobby Witt first, and then they have Gunnar tied with Lindor. Oh. That's bad. That's funny. That's bad. It's funny that we brought that. I wrote that up earlier, but that's interesting. Yeah. ah Third base, Ramirez, first, Devers, second. There you go. That feels pretty chalk. Matt Chapman got votes. Ugh. Wow. I mean, he's been playing goal-level defense. Don't get me wrong.
00:48:11
Speaker
He always will, but he's also hitting 250. First team outfield, Judge Soto and Jaren Duran. I'm very much okay with that. Second team. This is fun. Anthony Santander. Absolutely. And then double Padres. Jurickson Profar and Jackson Merrill. Good for Jurickson Profar, man. I don't know how I feel about Merrill. Merrill's like sixth in MVP odds right now. Wow.
00:48:38
Speaker
And then, ah this is weird, others receiving votes, Corbin Carroll. Oh, he's been in a terrible season. That's, that's horrible. That's a terrible time. I guess because he played well this month. Whoever voted for that guy, yeah. That's bad. So, what happened to Quan? Did he fall off of it? I've not been paying attention. Oh, he, I completely jinxed that guy.
00:48:58
Speaker
I completely, let's see what he's hitting right now. He's hitting 291, so he went from 370 when we had that pod conversation wow yeah to 291. With the 783 OPS, still hitting with the 121 OPS+, so he's not bad there. um Riley Green got some votes. He's been having a good season. And Tehaskar Hernandez got some votes.
00:49:18
Speaker
but didn't make the cut. DH, this is, wow. Whoa. Okay. I don't like that. Oh, Tani Osuna. First team is Otani. Second team. Guess who got it. It should be Osuna, but somehow it's not. Jordan Alvarez. Oh, come on. Also receiving votes, Osuna and Brent Rooker. I don't know if I like that. I don't know if I like that. I don't. It should be Osuna. I think it's probably the off the field stuff.
00:49:48
Speaker
That's bad. It shouldn't be about that though. Yeah. here I don't think the home run derby, I don't think you should have been the home run derby. I mean, Alvarez and Ozuna stats are comparable. I'm not, I'm not, ah I'm not upset about that. I guess it just feels weird. Starting pitcher. But wait, who, who is, who was after Alvarez? Sorry. Oh, after. out So Alvarez was second team and then Ozuna and Rooker were the honorable mentions who got votes.
00:50:16
Speaker
That Rooker was playing more field than he was. That's what I thought. But yeah, I mean. I don't know. There's those three guys, Rooker and Ozuna and Alvarez. The stats are so so close to each other. Kind of toss ups. And then starting pitchers. So there's five for first and five for second team. I actually completely agree with the first team. It's sale school, wheeler, skeins, Seth Lugo. Yeah, man. look at lu I agree. That's that's perfect. All right. Second team Cole Reagan's. Logan Gilbert, Fromber Valdez, Corbin Burns, Jack Flaherty. Flaherty? Did Flaherty really pick that one? I don't know about Flaherty, but the other four, Flaherty or Reagans. Yeah. Reagans has been good. Reagans is a strikeout pitcher. He's been good though. Yeah. He's been in inside on conflict for a year. Oh, there's receiving votes. Honestly, Logan Webb kind of got hosed in this.
00:51:14
Speaker
But Michael King, Christopher Sanchez, Logan Webb, Hunter Green, Shoda Emenaga, Louise Heal, Dylan Cease. Dylan Cease kind of got robbed here. His ERA is high. I think Neil should have been higher on that list. Yeah. And I think Imanaga should have been higher on that list. I think Imanaga should have been way higher on that list. It's so weird that Imanaga didn't get like just kind of, he's been pitching well and he went from like second and Cy Young odds to just like randomly falling out of it. He's 14 and 3 with a 303 ERA and a 100 ERA. Yeah, that's better than a lot of the guys that are ahead of him. 14 wins is awesome in this day and age.
00:51:50
Speaker
and then relief. I mean, Imanaga stats are better than Reagan's. Reagan's only thing has has on him a strikeouts. I guess I don't. Yeah, I don't. I don't get that. To me, I don't understand that. And then really pictures pretty formality, I say.
00:52:06
Speaker
You got a manual class, a first team, clay home, second team. I'm sorry. What? Most blown saves in the league, baby. So there's two relievers on the first team, two on the second team. So manual class, a and clay homes. And then Mason Miller and rise. I'll wait. See a second team. There you go. I'm sorry. I'm kidding. You have to be kidding. No way. Clay Holmes is on this one. No, he's not in it. I was joking. I was being facetious. That's disgusting. A manual class, his first team with Mason Miller.
00:52:35
Speaker
and the ride old bla he a kiby eight second team be that makes a lot more sense there thank you And then Kate Smith, Ryan Walker, Ryan Helsley, and Griffin Jax got votes. Nice. So this is actually voted on between a panel of experts, like in the actual Olimobi team and fans can vote. So listeners, if you guys don't like these picks, some of these experts that pick this might have actual votes. I don't know.
00:53:03
Speaker
you can though overrule them and make some votes on this. So just wanted to throw that out there. And that wraps up the 1929 episode of Championship or a Bus. We promise it won't take as long for another episode next time. We know you've been waiting with baited breath and we will see you next time a lot sooner. See you soon. Peace.