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Dream Design: Asian Leadership Development Program - Part 2
37 Plays9 months ago
In this episode, we discuss what roleplaying scenarios we would put leaders in to practice how to respond to typical microaggressions. Using real-life situations, we share different routes to call out microaggressive behavior. We break down the difference between ideal response and acknowledge what typically happens in reality. We also talk about ways to better communicate, model behavior, and manage up to reduce workplace microaggressions.
What skills would you want to add to the leadership program? Let us know at [email protected]
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Transcript
Introduction and Music Update
00:00:06
Speaker
Hi, listeners. Welcome to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight or Things Asians in the Workplace. I'm Echo. I'm Doug. And I'm Jenny. We have a quick announcement about our intro and outro music. Jenny, you want to give an announcement?
00:00:25
Speaker
Oh yeah, sure. So we didn't really have a chance to acknowledge the fact that we changed our intro and outro music, but we just wanted to do something original and not use some random file that we downloaded that anybody else could use. So we wanted, so we hired someone from Italy to create original music for the intro and the outro, and hopefully you guys enjoy it. Shout out to Guido. That's his name. Thanks, Guido. All the way from Italy.
Creating Leadership Development Programs for Asians
00:00:53
Speaker
So I believe the last time that we talked about if we were asked to design our dream leadership development program for Asians, what that would look like. And I think we wanted to continue that conversation. Particularly, I think in this episode, we wanted to cover what are the skills that we want our participants to develop if they were going through this program. And what are some of the dream speakers that we wanted to invite if we are able to.
00:01:22
Speaker
So with that being said, Dr. Mjenny, you all wanted to start with some of the skills that you think we should have our participants develop. Yeah, of course. So given that this is a leadership development program for Asian and Asian-Americans, Asian-American Pacific Islanders, you know, I think we should probably start with how to respond to racial microaggressions as a target.
00:01:48
Speaker
So typically in psych studies, we put people in vignettes, these little stories and the little scenarios that they're in and how they would respond to it. I think having them do a role play potentially in program would allow them to learn how to deal with the microaggression as a target and potentially learn how to also deflect it as well too.
00:02:14
Speaker
I love that. And why do you think it's important that we start with this particular skill, you know, skills around like microaggressions and responding to them as Asian professionals?
00:02:23
Speaker
That's a great question. I feel like sometimes if you're not able to navigate those microaggressions because microaggressions and civility, everybody goes through that. I think in other programs, they're talking about how people navigate and manage expectations of their coworkers and their upper management. I think this is one of the ways I think that one of the things that just hasn't been given that much spotlight because Asians just
00:02:51
Speaker
really aren't viewed as, or how shall I say it, this topic is not something that's covered and it's something that of course we study and we think it's important to make sure that people are able to navigate through this so that they can actually continue on with their career and do all the other little things to move up within the organization.
00:03:10
Speaker
I probably also will add to that is if our listeners were listening to our last episode, they will also understand the importance of having some of the scenarios in front of them. As like we definitely have talked about like how microaggressions has been one of the top challenges for people facing the workplace these days. And so definitely we wanted to teach them
00:03:35
Speaker
some of the response options that they could have.
Addressing Microaggressions in Leadership Training
00:03:38
Speaker
So Doug, you mentioned vignettes and role-playing scenarios. Can you walk us through some examples of what that might look like in a leadership development program where the skills that we want to teach are about responding to microaggressions? Jane, that's a really good question. And a very complex one. Shoot, why am I drawing a blank?
00:04:00
Speaker
this together. So imagine that this is like this is day three of module one or two. And the topic is, hey, today you're going to learn about how to respond to microaggressions and microaggressions that are unique to the Asian experience. What what are some ways you could do that in a program like this? Yeah, that's a great. That's a great question. And I guess like there's a part of me that's like, all this is running through my head. Right. So one of the first things that actually came through is that
00:04:27
Speaker
maybe if we were in the workplace and maybe we're hiring and we have a hiring manager and maybe a committee of folks who are hiring folks and we have a diverse set of candidates and some of the candidates are Asian and maybe somebody says, we should hire this Asian person because Asians are really hard workers. As someone who's on that hiring committee, how would you respond to that?
00:04:52
Speaker
How would you, I guess my question is like, how would you potentially, as the target, really react to that, respond to that, maybe acknowledge that, and then really, in a way, educate that, and how that potentially, that stereotype that may be positive, right? Asians are hard workers. They'll work long hours. How that may mean different things for different people. And I can break that down a little bit.
00:05:21
Speaker
and showcase that some of these positive stereotypes could also mean expectations for those who work for that candidate to work longer hours to do certain work that or someone else thinks they may be good at. Pigeon holds their potentially career and I think being able to potentially
00:05:40
Speaker
not call that person outright in that meeting, but potentially pull them to a side and say, Hey, I heard you say this, like, you know, based on yada, yada, yada, these are the things that could be potentially the downside of it and how another person or another leader saying that could affect, you know, the decision and how that could affect the expectations of others. And I think that's, that actually is quite powerful.
00:06:07
Speaker
Or in that scenario that I can also say like, hey, we hired this Asian person is because they meet all the requirements that needed for this role, not because they are hard worker. I think it's really important to highlight the importance of that hiring decision needs to be based on what is needed by that role and the fit of this person. And there's so much of a nuance that we know from our previous episode on what that fit could be look like.
00:06:40
Speaker
Another example that I can also start about there is, I think in that scenario, we were almost like put people through like they wanted to be an ally of that Asian, even though themselves as being Asian. And I can also see themselves being a target. We can even like say like, hey, if you were assigned to a project over and over again, and it's all the same type of work, and it's all involved either
00:07:05
Speaker
number of quanching or data analytics, and what could you respond? What could you do in that particular moment when you're assigned again with those projects? So I think that could be another core example that I can think of from our previous study that we have uncovered that also put the participants themselves as the targets.
00:07:28
Speaker
So I was just taking down notes to just kind of like summarize what I've been hearing both from you and Duck is walking people through typical scenarios, typical examples that Asian professionals, whether you're Asian or Asian American might find themselves in. And one would be raising awareness around this and saying, hey, this is a microaggression and here's why it's problematic. And then giving you ways to respond, whether you are a target or whether you're a bystander. And Duck, what I heard from you was,
00:07:55
Speaker
Sometimes you can respond in the moment in front of the aggressor or if that is not possible due to whatever, you know, maybe lack of psychological safety or maybe it's just not something that you're comfortable doing, then what you could do is go to that person after the fact and have a one-on-one conversation with them and that there is no right or wrong way to do this. Is that what I'm hearing?
00:08:16
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think the term, we're all familiar with the term like saving face. It's a very Asian term that's made its way to English vernacular. What does it mean? Can you just define what saving face means in the context of us?
00:08:32
Speaker
Why? Because we actually all have different ethnicities. Like I could say like there's actually a word for it in Vietnamese. It's like to like do things so that you don't embarrass someone else outright. And in Vietnamese, it's like, like you don't want to do something. So Jenny and Eka, I don't know if you guys, if you have that in like Korean and Chinese as well too. What is it in Chinese?
00:09:00
Speaker
We definitely had that in Chinese, not wanting to sabotage that relationship. Yeah. Jenny, is there something like that in Korean as well too? There must be, but I don't know what the actual phrase is. But yeah, there is this emphasis on saving face, on prioritizing relationships.
00:09:20
Speaker
Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of interesting. I've never really heard that until like, I want to say the last 10 years or so. Like I keep on hearing saving face more so, but it's like a little translation of it. And I didn't think that was actually part of like English business vernacular. So I'm going to attribute it to Asian folks. So are you saying that because of this emphasis on saving face,
00:09:47
Speaker
that sort of permeates a lot of Asian cultures, Asian American cultures as well, that we're less likely to broach something with someone because we are concerned about their feelings.
00:09:59
Speaker
That's a great question. I really don't
Personal Experiences with Microaggressions
00:10:01
Speaker
know. I'm just saying that there's different approaches to it. We can be more explicit with it and be in the moment and kind of break it down for folks. Or I think the alternative is the saving face approach where, you know, if it's a committee, if you're in a high level meeting,
00:10:18
Speaker
And the hiring team says, we should hire this person. And somehow you're able to get it to be delayed. And then you pull this person aside and say, hey, the things you said during this meeting perpetuated certain stereotypes. And here's why. And then I would like them to explain to them. I think if I were to do that in the moment, there's a potential for that person to lose face or be embarrassed.
00:10:45
Speaker
And sometimes the thing that we say is praise in person and then criticize privately. In a way, it kind of falls into that. But I guess the softer side of that is to then allow folks to save face as well, too. I think that's just the corporate America thing. And it goes back to people just not being comfortable giving feedback in the moment. So if it's feedback,
00:11:14
Speaker
related to something racial, people are even more uncomfortable.
00:11:20
Speaker
So I wouldn't say that it's an Asian thing that would dictate whether someone gives feedback to someone in public or behind the scenes. Absolutely. I think if you know the person well, you probably don't want to embarrass them in front of everybody else or potentially embarrass them. But yeah, praise publicly, criticize privately. I think that kind of falls into that. In a way, we're kind of actually talking about different vernacular that's actually kind of similar.
00:11:45
Speaker
But we have a different word that we're also using for this, the saving face concept that a lot of us who are, you know, first generation or 1.5 generation are still quite aware of and maybe potentially others as well, too, if they choose to go that route. But we're saying that I feel like we're saying that there's many routes like Jenny, like you said, there are many ways to address this and there's really no right, like certain right way to do it.
00:12:10
Speaker
And to that point, I almost wondered what would be so cool to have that group discussion on like, if that were you, like how would you respond? Because I mean, like in all honesty, like I know that even like the study that we all did that in that like we understand what are the symptoms of microaggression. We understand like how this will be manifested, but we haven't really seen a systematic paper that talks about how people respond to them.
00:12:40
Speaker
And I would be curious to hear what other people would respond. Maybe there's a better way to adjust that and having the participant to share their own experience. For one is, have they actually experienced that themselves? For two is, for those people who did experience, what are those responses? Yeah, what did you do in the past? What do you wish you could have done? And I can tell you that based on the microgression research, most people don't do anything.
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah, and I think anything that's the easiest way and the default way is to like, I'm not sure how to address this. And if I do, what's the potential backlash if I do embarrass this person? Of course, when you call someone out on a microaggression, are they going to say, oh, I didn't think about that way. Potentially that could have been one of the ways that could be interpreted. How often does that happen?
00:13:37
Speaker
I know, I know. So quick question, because we have such a wealth of expertise and lived experiences in this room, in this podcast, I'm going to ask you, have you ever responded to in recent times, like in the past, like maybe five years in a corporate space? I know, Doug, you mentioned responding to a microaggression like way back when you were working at I think Best Buy. Have you like ever experienced a, you know, a workplace microaggression in like the corporate setting? And what did you do?
00:14:06
Speaker
Can I go first? Yeah. So one comes to mind. And I'm kind of laughing. I'm kind of smirking a little bit as I think back on this. Because now it's for me, it's funny. But in the moment, I was kind of heated. So I'm not going to say where this was. I'll say that was a big four company in the Northeast. But one of the things that was said to me, I think I was pulled into this director's office. And I think he said something to the extent about how
00:14:36
Speaker
something about some sort of chasm, but he used the word chink instead. And I was there and I was there outside with, you know, another black woman. You know, we both had our heads poked in and we were kind of doing like this brief, like, hey, we want to come and do a quick check-in on this, make sure that things are all right.
00:14:52
Speaker
And he says, blah, blah, blah, blah. And all I heard was, shank. And I knew a shank of what he potentially could have meant. He could have meant the chasm, the opening in the armor. Also, I happen to be Vietnamese American, and it also could be a derogatory term towards me.
00:15:12
Speaker
And my response was, you mean the opening in the armor, right? And I got no response from him. And I look over to the person. Wow. And she's like, I'm not getting into this with with you all. And then I walked away, you know, I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna let it slide. I wasn't gonna let it slide. But I think that person knew that, you know, like he probably had no
00:15:36
Speaker
good way out. So he just shut up. Or he stayed silent on that one. Oh, damn. Yeah, off record was. Yeah, I love him. Like I like he's like, you know, he's always like trying to, he's thinking broadly. And he likes to also use big words to sometimes and this time, it was to his detriment. You mean this, right?
00:16:02
Speaker
And I think he was probably caught off guard with this and he didn't want to say anything. And I respected that and I walked away. But if he did, I'm like, don't. But what was the context that he used? Something in terms of probably the things that we haven't covered in these meetings that could be a potential topic that we needed to broach and it could be kind of a
00:16:25
Speaker
downfall of ours. And I think he couldn't use different words to address that. But to use that word and have me in front of it and another woman of color there. I didn't feel, I didn't expect her to say anything or do anything. But I looked over and like, like,
00:16:41
Speaker
It's not like a, how do you like that? It's more like, uh, see, we have to like, like Asians have to deal with it as well too. You know what I mean? It's not like, you know, when we talk about discrimination, it's like, you know, sometimes it's about black and white, maybe Latino, but like, like what's getting swept under the rug is that Asian, Asian Americans have to deal with it too. And all of us,
00:17:01
Speaker
are not as submissive or as neat or as we'll go out to the side. We're going to do it back in your face. This is not your mom and dad's Asian, Asian American coming back at you in the workplace.
00:17:17
Speaker
Nice. What about you, Echo? Sorry, I have one more question. Is that female colleague also Asian or is she? African American. Okay. Even I'm thinking about in that scenario, what can this woman do? That's a bystander. Can you be an ally of this person? Because this person literally just did not say anything. Yeah.
00:17:42
Speaker
Like Jenny mentioned, right? Like the default is like not saying anything. So the scenario could be what could have this other woman, what could have this other person done to, you know, to either pass along to make sure that the right word was news or the right definition was news in this scenario.
00:18:03
Speaker
or to calm the potential fires that could have came out from just the usage of that one word that had multiple meetings. Yeah, or just validating your experience and saying, oh, that was wrong. And I acknowledge that. I mean, sometimes it can just be as simple as that. Yeah. Yeah. I can also share another example that I have been through. I think this is back to my old
00:18:31
Speaker
role. I have done a lot of those work, but more on the backstage. But I'm not the one that gets in front of the senior leadership team. First of all, I realized that it has been a pattern. And at the beginning, I wasn't sure if this is more of a
00:18:49
Speaker
uh, me being more of a junior member of the team versus like, Hey, because you're Asian. So we know that you're not very good at communication stuff like that. So I also didn't credit this to be anything related to like a microaggression, but more so as like, just as my own experience. So I just share that experience with my manager.
Reflecting on Subtle Microaggressions in the Workplace
00:19:11
Speaker
And we actually worked on a plan to say, Hey,
00:19:15
Speaker
here's the type of projects that she would actually advocate for me to be the person to present the results. And we had a plan and we stick to that plan. And I will say then in the next three months, I actually presented twice to the senior executive team and they listened to me and they gave the credit that I felt like I deserved at that point. I don't think this case is as salient as Doug has experienced. I don't think there are things
00:19:46
Speaker
is very salient and say, hey, because you're Asian, therefore you don't get this, or therefore you're not going to be considered for this. But rather, how can we speak to the pattern or stick to the facts? I literally was having this conversation with my manager. It's like, hey, I realize I have been doing all those analysis work for those projects. And I felt like it's either a team norm that I need to break, or this is a habit that we should
00:20:15
Speaker
Cultivate like again, like I also show my witness I wanted to be this person that present the results and communicate to the senior leadership I think the lesson learned from from that case is like there are cases as Asians We don't think the best of the people I don't think this is people think because I'm an Asian so they don't give me that opportunity But rather we need to call that out and based on the facts that this is something that has already happened Can we work on something together?
00:20:45
Speaker
I have a question that goes because you mentioned something very interesting. You said that you don't think it's a microaggression, but could I kind of push back on that and say, could it be a microaggression? I mean, microaggressions are subtle, right? Yeah. And let me clarify. I'm not saying I don't think this is a microaggression. I'm just saying there are cases that is more ambiguous. Like maybe I'm just too junior and people just don't realize I have that kind of potential, right? Yeah.
00:21:12
Speaker
So just I just wanted to illustrate or just point out the beauty of like the examples that both of you just shared. So Doug, your example was like a blatant form of microaggression. I mean, a micro encounter, a micro comment, but it still had impact and it was blatant. Echo, in your case, it was more subtle and there's so many ways you can explain it. And I think you
00:21:32
Speaker
gave us examples of what people tend to do when they experience microaggression. They internalize it. They say, maybe it's me. Maybe it's because I am junior. Maybe it's because I need more experience presenting. But I'm going to encourage our audience to ask themselves,
00:21:46
Speaker
If you are Asian, how often has this happened to you where you don't get to present your work? Where even though you were the mastermind or the person doing all of the work behind the scenes, how often did you get to present your work? Ask yourself. We want an essay from all our listeners on this.
00:22:04
Speaker
echo. I mean, I definitely can agree with that. And I've had experiences like that, where I've done like 80% of the work, and yet someone else swooping in takes all the credit. I'm fine sharing the credit, you know, it's collective. But I've definitely been I felt insulted when there have been moments like that, where, you know, I do all the work, and then someone else presents it, or I've had situations where someone just like took my idea and presented it as her own. And I still remember that.
00:22:33
Speaker
Talk about that with you. I kind of really like what you did. And I remember actually talking to one of my directors who was talking about like, how do we deal with microaggressions in the workplace? And I mentioned to her, we got to fight subtle with subtle. Like if you were actually explicit and say, hey, I did this work, like, you know, some of these praises should be going to me.
00:22:54
Speaker
that becomes kind of a egocentric hey I did this and that as opposed to hey you know just wanna reiterate these thoughts that we put these things together to really suddenly say hey I had a huge impact on this I thought it was a great way for you to kind of interject and say
00:23:10
Speaker
hey, I know that you lifted all this work and said that you did all this work. But in fact, it was potentially a bit of our team. And then I took the lead on it to actually do all this work, given that I revised all this. I thought it was great. And I think that's something that goes back, Jenny, to our development program, is how do we then
00:23:31
Speaker
react to it and potentially turn this around and fight it that way or even deflect it and turn it back to the, hey, my work went unrecognized if that rang a bell, and to then really self-promote, right? And that goes back to just probably typical things that we would be teaching in the prior coaching development program. But for us, this angle that we have for Asian American Pacific Islander,
00:24:00
Speaker
This could be the, hey, want to reiterate that, you know, the team did some work.
Combating Microaggressions through Self-Promotion
00:24:05
Speaker
I followed through with this. And these are the things that we need to continue to do. I think that's great. It's a great way to fight subtle. It touches on communication, negotiation, management skills, interpersonal skills, all of the things that you would typically learn in a leadership development program, except we're sort of like catering towards the Asian experience.
00:24:27
Speaker
You can fight subtle with subtle, but you can also fight subtle with explicit and third. So I don't think there is a right or wrong way to to address microaggression. Sometimes you just have to be in the moment and say, you know, you call a spade a spade and say, hey, like I did that and I noticed this is a pattern. Sometimes you have to do that. And that's how you win the respect of people around you.
00:24:52
Speaker
And sometimes it pays to be subtle and it really depends on your tenure within the organization, how comfortable you feel and how comfortable you feel with the other person as well. Yeah, totally.
00:25:04
Speaker
And I definitely felt like over the years, like my competency in my own work and my words have increased that definitely like put me in a better spot that I felt like I be able to even say things more explicit than just like imply certain things that people probably catch or miss it. One also other thing that I wanted to share that there is I also feel like having that group activity, people can hear that experience and see how other people respond.
00:25:34
Speaker
can give them the confidence to do so in the future because sometimes like even in that case like I wasn't sure if I was doing the right thing but if I hear like my group has probably experienced the same or there's a better way to do it then in the future I might have more confidence that I can
00:25:54
Speaker
can do this. So I think that's another benefits of like having that group activity. Validating their experience. Absolutely. Jenny, I think you had a story that you were about to, could you share that story that you had? Which story? You were just alluding to earlier. Yeah. That someone else did your work. Oh, okay. Give us your stories while I cut you off with my recent experience there. Oh, so my, my story was just, I don't even remember like the, all the specific stories because it's happened so often.
00:26:22
Speaker
But it's just, you know, the pattern of you coming up with an idea and then you find out that someone else pitched it as their own and didn't even give you credit or someone asking you to do all the grunt work, but in the meeting they say, I did it.
00:26:37
Speaker
not me, but like, oh, I did this. And I'm like, well, you did this with me. Or like, you asked me for help on this. And you're not acknowledging the help that you got. And it makes me not want to ever work with that person ever again, if possible. So I really like that example that you two shared in Echo. I think your example will speak volumes to a lot of people who are
00:26:57
Speaker
wondering, Oh, is it just me? Or is it? Is there something else going on here? It's kind of interesting that you mentioned that, Jenny, that, you know, I think an echo to that, you're like, I don't want to work with this person again. Right. And it's not like, it's not like you're gonna go out, out, out of the way and say explicitly, right, you're gonna do it subtly too. But like, how many times can this happen until you feel like there's a bunch of people at work I don't want to work with?
00:27:21
Speaker
You know, wouldn't it be better if we're able to recognize it, maybe educate and bring people along? And I think that's where our program would actually come into play and allow folks to help them navigate the microaggressions that they experience in the workplace. Nice plug for us.
00:27:42
Speaker
Well, thankfully it's only been like one, one person on a team of many. So, and usually if I find myself, like if I were to find myself on a team where it's like happening left and right, I'll just leave. Now that affects turnover. That's job satisfaction and turnover. Of course, like.
00:28:00
Speaker
know, it's this is a systemic problem. Yeah, because I'm also wondering, this goes both ways, right? Like, I would also say like, if I respond like more, like in my recent example, if I get caught it out in front of the leaders, I wonder like how many people wanted to work with me in the future.
00:28:20
Speaker
Like they would also shut up at NASA and like why you were asking for that, even though you didn't even do the work, which we signed you up for. And so I think that's just very interesting to see like how we respond to those cases, especially when there is a power at play. But in this case, like both of them are more like a senior in the organization than I do. And so I was like, well,
00:28:48
Speaker
I also will see like there will be cases I'm going to be working with them in the future. So this speaks to more importance of like having this leadership to one program. How this is very important cases for leaders outside of Asian group should also be aware like, Hey, like this is how we talk about in even earlier on, like,
00:29:10
Speaker
throughout all the leadership development program, what are the common themes that we also need to teach those leaders about, right? It's not just like for Asians that we are aware, but for outside of this group, like for leaders outside of this group, like how they should be, like interact and be a leader.
00:29:28
Speaker
this is a little bit off topic, but I was just thinking like my head was just kind of, I was ruminating a little bit. I'm like, I wonder what would happen if they actually, if we like called it out, right? And they weren't defensive and say, oh, I acknowledged that I may have, you know, perpetuated certain stereotypes and microaggressions in the workplace. Would we ever hear that in the actual workplace? And I kind of giggle a little bit. I'm like, yeah, not very likely.
00:29:54
Speaker
Very unlikely, but if you were to hear that, I think my respect for that person would go through the roof. Yeah, me as well. In a way, it's the ideal response. I feel like I'm not sure I would ever really ever hear that. I try to do that when I discriminate or someone brings something up to me in the workplace, but it's like, will others try to do that? And it's only the stuff that is potentially brought up to me.
00:30:24
Speaker
And there are other evidences just to feel like this is not going to help this leader along the way if they refuse to accept that. I mean, this is probably not that much related to my experience. But this leader also shared the document while it's an ACP document. You're supposed to have the legal involved and things like that. So I feel like there are certain behaviors. That's why we felt like,
00:30:54
Speaker
Setting that example as a leader is so important, which touch upon like the topic that we're talking about how to train people skills like you need to put leaders who demonstrate those behaviors, and then
00:31:10
Speaker
given them that leadership role so they can be the role model of others. That's such a good point that you brought up. I think it's really important that you have people in the organization, whether it's leaders, whether it's people who have the seniority, maybe it's the title, whatever it is that they are able to say these things directly, intervene,
00:31:31
Speaker
without fear of reprisal. And you can be tactful, you can be direct, you can be professional and at the same time do this in a way that allows other people to see your behavior and model it. I think that's so important, especially for leaders to do. And the reality is that's probably not going to happen anytime soon. I haven't seen it happen. Most people who witness a microaggression just stay silent. And so that's the reality that we're dealing with.
00:32:01
Speaker
as depressing as that
Managing Up and Addressing Issues with Leadership
00:32:02
Speaker
may be. The other thing that we're really talking about that, you know, in this microaggression training that we're kind of navigating right now is really managing up, right? You're potentially an upper manager or so and you're managing someone else's expectations, right? So we have to navigate in a way that we know that that's how the ideal response is and what we're going to get.
00:32:22
Speaker
But how do we do it so we bring other folks along, right? So in a way, these are the things that you're going to have to do. Like you're going to have to potentially manage up as well, too, to make sure that things are working. And I think this goes back to what Echo mentioned before, a harmonious way. I mean, that's a good way to end the episode today is just like the reality of microaggressions is there's the ideal way to respond. And it's also going to depend on like
00:32:49
Speaker
your relationship to that person. So if it's a peer, you might be more direct, but if it's a leader or senior leader in your organization, you're definitely not going to want to rock the boat. So in situations like that, what are some things that you can do? I think this is a really good conversation on the reality of microaggressions and
00:33:08
Speaker
what people are up against and why it's so hard to even talk about this and address them and speak out. But hopefully, you know, based on our conversation and based on some of the examples that we've shared, listeners can feel a bit more empowered and validated about their own experiences. Absolutely. Well, do we have a haiku to end the episode? Empowerment blooms, microaggression faced, heard,
00:33:35
Speaker
leadership ignites. That's a good message. Face the microaggressions head on. Have your experiences heard. Yeah, I like that they mentioned like a microaggression face to heard. I think that's important. Yeah. So tune in next episode where we'll talk about who our dream speakers will be. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you listeners. Thank you.