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Dream Design: Asian Leadership Development Program
64 Plays9 months ago
What would a leadership development program that speaks to the Asian and Asian American experience look like? This episode focuses on the essential topics we would include if we could design a leadership program meant for us. Over the next several episodes, we’ll cover topics, skills, and dream speakers we would feature in this program.
If you had the opportunity to develop a leadership program for Asian and Asian American leaders, what other topics would you include? Let us know at [email protected]
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Transcript
Introduction to Leadership Programs for Asians
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. We're your hosts. I'm Jenny. I'm Echo. And I'm Duke.
00:00:20
Speaker
So today we're going to be talking about something slightly different. And the topic is, if you could design a leadership development program specific to Asian and Asian-American professionals, what would it look like? What types of topics would you explore? What types of skills would you want to teach? What types of speakers or faculty members would you invite to the leadership development program?
00:00:45
Speaker
Given that we have a lot to explore, we are going to be dividing this topic up into several different episodes or several different parts.
Why Customized Programs are Needed?
00:00:51
Speaker
And today we're going to be focusing on sort of providing the context and talking a little bit about what subjects we would want to cover. Can I just pause this real quick and just say,
00:01:02
Speaker
Not really pause, but I think this is actually a really interesting topic that I'm never going to ever get a chance to broach in any academic setting. So the fact that we get to talk about it today here is something that really gets me excited. So yeah, I just wanted to add that. Academic or the workplace, because I don't think I've ever seen anything that was specifically catered towards Asian Americans and Asians.
00:01:29
Speaker
Um, yeah, yeah. And you know, when we hear like, you know, or when I hear like, you know, they're looking for diversity or people of color in the workplace to, you know, put in leadership positions, rarely if any organizational say we want Asian and Asian Americans in leadership positions explicitly.
Insights from HBR on Leadership
00:01:50
Speaker
And one thing that I do want to call out, that's one of the article that we share the link.
00:01:56
Speaker
It's from HBR. And they talked about different elements to make leadership development programs successful. And the two ideas that I wanted to call out from their article is, one is, you really need to provide customized or targeted programs to support the leaders with their own challenges. And Asians definitely facing unique, special issues or the challenges in their career development.
00:02:26
Speaker
So therefore, I do believe, yeah, there is a need. And the second piece of it is they asked people to consider their own short-term growth and also non-term impact.
00:02:41
Speaker
Not only they need to offer customized support, but also to consider not only just this one-time thing, but how we can just think about this in our terms. So make sure that the goal that you're setting up those leadership development program is really being met at the end of the
Why Aren't There More Programs?
00:03:00
Speaker
day. So I have a question for you too. Why do you think there aren't that many leadership development programs that focus on the Asian or Asian-American experience? Given how many Asians there are in the US workforce,
00:03:11
Speaker
Great question, Jenny. I think my immediate side on that one was I think we have read so many or talked about so many articles in the past, talked about because Asians were being viewed as my model minority. You're doing great. You don't need any help. So of course, as the leadership development program is designed to help develop those leaders, then you're doing fine. You don't need us. So why you should have your own leadership development program. And that's one.
00:03:41
Speaker
The second piece I also felt like, well, technically speaking, this is a program to develop future leaders. We all know like Asians are not any typical leaders that people would usually think of when they think about leaders. And so you're being left out.
00:04:00
Speaker
I think those are the two things quickly jump on my mind. How about you two? Yeah, I definitely agree with Echo and the sentiment that Asians are viewed as, you know, they're good. Why do we need to give them help? Why should there be a program specifically just for Asian-American? And I think that for me, that's what stands out.
00:04:23
Speaker
It's really hard to really answer that without like disaggregating certain things about the history of Asian and Asian immigration where they are and within the organization and the entry level mid level and you know more senior level, without like really compiling, you know, something together to really present showcase like you know you may have.
Systemic Barriers and Diversity Overlooked
00:04:42
Speaker
A lot of Asian, Asian Americans working in your organization, but maybe they come in at the entry level and they get to middle management and they stay there, but they don't go anywhere else. You know, people don't really question like why is it that.
00:04:56
Speaker
people in the middle there aren't moving up to the top. What's preventing that glass ceiling from breaking and allowing them to join the upper echelons of leadership? And I think that's a much deeper conversation that maybe diversity initiatives probably don't want to answer. And it probably involves a lot more complex answer than what they can come up with in a quick one or two PowerPoint slide. So I think
00:05:24
Speaker
Part of the issue is that it's a more complex problem and most organizations aren't willing to take that on because it takes too much time and effort and money to really create that development program. As Echo alluded to, we on this podcast have been talking about Asian and Asian American leadership actually quite a bit, whether our audience knows it or not. We know the stereotypes and we know what's out there.
00:05:53
Speaker
And what we want to do with this is, of course, combat it and then talk about, you know, not, is there a need? We know there is a need. So the question is, hey, what would that look like since the need is there? That's a good point. I kind of wanted to circle back to what Echo said earlier on about the model minority part.
00:06:12
Speaker
You know, as we know, there is a lot of resource constraints in organizations. You know, leadership development programs take up resources, you know, time and employees and money to develop them. And so I think another reason is this idea that, or perception that, hey, resources are limited. Why would we want to waste it or use it on a group that is a model minority that has made it that doesn't need it? So I think that also plays into it as well.
00:06:40
Speaker
Yes, I wonder like how much of it is also like PR to write public relations within the organization and outside, right? So of course, when organizations say they're developing some sort of program, they can, of course, talk about it on LinkedIn, or maybe a news reel if they're part of it, and even promote that within, whether it's effective or not, we don't know, but you know, they can definitely gloat about it when they actually do do have that. And it does get spotlighted. And there's some tokenism in there as well, too.
00:07:10
Speaker
I have another question. Do you think organizations would face backlash should they decide to dedicate resources to develop an Asian, American Asian leadership development program?
Potential Backlash on Targeted Programs
00:07:22
Speaker
That would be interesting to find out in maybe an engagement survey of some sort to get people's opinions on what that looks like or how they may feel about that. I feel like it's so different now in 2024 than maybe it was and maybe I would imagine like in 1990 or so. I would imagine if people or employees don't understand the history to diaspora of Asian and Asian American and the way that they have migrated and played a role in the US workforce,
00:07:51
Speaker
I think that, without understanding that, they may ask, why? Why is there a need for this? You mentioned it, like Echo said, you know, it looks like they're doing fine. Why do we need to put resources and time into developing this particular group? And that's most people. What do you think, Echo? Because most people don't know about the history of Asian Americans and the diaspora and the discrimination they experienced.
00:08:19
Speaker
You know, this is very interesting because the sentiment that I'm looking at, because I've been in organizations where they offer multiple development programs for different underrepresented groups, the sentiment there is, there's always one for you, because there's so much of a variety that has been offered, so you can always fit into one of those groups. The issue that I'm seeing there is the only population that didn't get covered
00:08:49
Speaker
is the white male. I'm saying this like very bluntly is because that's theory like what being left out. Yep, the straight white male, right? Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so let's just call it out because I think that's probably like the only group that none of the program is going to be targeted or
00:09:09
Speaker
cover them. And truthfully, I don't know what's the reaction people will have if they felt like they were being left out in that group. I think the sentiment is more about why I'm being left out. There are programs that tailor for each and every single people with those identities, why I am being left out. I think it's more of that sentiment, rather than the sentiment towards why you should have this for Asians. That's a really good point. Can I count on that real quick, Echo?
00:09:39
Speaker
isn't kind of understood that most development programs are for white males or that white males get put into leadership positions more often than people of color and women. So they have the opportunities and they actually have first crack at certain things to go about it. Isn't it, you know, in a way default, like the programs that are out there already, if not, if it's not formalized, it could be informal, that that is the case already.
00:10:06
Speaker
And what's interesting is they technically were enabled something different. Say like for the mainstream, like the quote unquote, the most legitimate or the most authentic leadership development program, they were branched as, well, this is the past to the leadership roles versus like some of the other like Asians or black or Latino or women leadership program.
00:10:33
Speaker
They call it out as like women leadership development program. They call it out as like Asian leadership development program. And we also know like the past isn't direct linkage to the succession plan or the leadership role directly, which I think that's so interesting like to see like how those being branded differently and the paths that lead to the final goal are very
Addressing Stereotypes and Systemic Challenges
00:10:59
Speaker
different. Yeah. I'm just putting it there.
00:11:01
Speaker
I completely agree with you. I think they have enough and they probably have something even better.
00:11:09
Speaker
Can I also add one other thing to that? Like maybe it's also like this code for like, you know, XYZ development program. It doesn't say for white males, but perhaps that's the undertone or the informal gist of it. And it doesn't get labeled like that, right? Like Echo, like you said, like when we have like women in leadership, it's women in leadership. It's just not just called leadership, it's called the women in leadership, right? So it's more explicit.
00:11:39
Speaker
you
00:11:47
Speaker
When I was working at a financial services firm, one of the things that I had to do was I had to review the qualitative comments from the employee engagement survey. And I remember seeing as I was sifting through some of the comments, this comment really stood out to me. And it was a comment from what I assume is a straight white man because it went something like this. He said, there's a ERG group, an employee resource group for
00:12:11
Speaker
woman for the lgbtq for you know black and latino professionals asian professionals but what about an erg group for the straight white man and that was something that i i saw like word for word in in the um the comment section and i think it represents a very common sentimentality of what we're up against the majority group members who feel left out and in this case you know it's a straight white man who feels like he has he doesn't have a
00:12:40
Speaker
spot where he could go into. But my reaction when I first saw that was, well, the rest of the organization is your ERG group, dude, you don't need a safe space. But I think that is your safe space, right? That is your safe space. So you don't need an additional safe space, you know, just for straight white men, because, you know, what would that look like? You know, you call it the KKK club. I mean, or like, it could be like, you know, a golf outing.
00:13:06
Speaker
you know, with like, we call it like the good old boys club, right? And of course, like if you have leaders at those outings or going for drinks after work, like, you know, those who aren't invited are in a way excluded, right? And if you're close, if you have close ties to folks in leadership, or if you have close ties to folks who have like a certain skill or knowledge or access to certain things,
00:13:29
Speaker
you in a way have a pathway to attain that knowledge or be connected to that person in one way or another to know about these opportunities. And I think people forget that sometimes these ERG groups are created so that you could actually connect with other folks so that you could
00:13:50
Speaker
hear about or see or talk about these opportunities that may be coming up, you know, and those are the things that I think that could enhance, develop and progress people's careers and for the most part, and we see this when we pull back out at the larger data, is that, you know, there's a lot of guys named John at the CEO level. And their last name ain't Cho or Kim or Nguyen or, you know, Wong.
00:14:19
Speaker
Not yet. All right. So I think that's like a, I think we touched on something there that we should probably explore, like in a separate episode where we talk about, you know, how do you navigate these conversations and please both the majority and the majority group members in this case, you know, how do you justify the reason or the existence of these development programs or ERG groups for minority groups while at the same time validating the concerns of the majority group and
00:14:46
Speaker
I don't know what the answer to that is. I think it's easier said than done. Yeah. Very tough question. And then really hard to really answer. Like you said, Jenny, like how do you respond to the person that says, Hey, where's, where's that group from me? You know, for not the white guy. So I don't know.
00:15:03
Speaker
So should we pivot and talk about some of the topics that we would like to address in this dream, design your employee development program for Asians and Asian Americans? What would that look like?
Importance of Asian Immigration History
00:15:17
Speaker
What are some of the topics that you would cover in this program?
00:15:20
Speaker
Can I just like pause and say I'm like, I'm really excited about this. Like Jenny, when you like, I think, I know we, I think we probably all talked about it, but I think Jenny, you jotted this down and I want to let our audience know that we did like an exercise with this. And I think like last week we were like jumping up and down and laughing and giggling about like what we would want in a program. We had all these like crazy ideas and these are the things that we came up with. It's, it was something that really excited me and
00:15:46
Speaker
Because it was something like I was never ever asked to even like even consider So for me, this is like really interesting and really I'm kind of on the edge of my seat with it because you have any feelings on it I mean, I'm sure like I've been in some of the Asian leadership development program in the past and I wish I had the
00:16:08
Speaker
not to be able to design more co-designers with the organization, but it wasn't. So you can also treat this as my feedback to some of the programs that I've been doing. And no offense. I know that people design those programs or organize those programs. They put their effort in.
00:16:25
Speaker
and there is a specific environment that they need to fulfill. But this is like, again, like us that we ourselves as being Asian and we are also experienced some of those challenges, both academically and also professionally. And we wanted to put the voice out there for people to consider.
00:16:45
Speaker
I think that's a really good point. I don't want to mislead our audience and say that, you know, Asian development programs are just non existent. They do exist in a few organizations out there. But like Echo was saying, they're sort of generic. They're not really like you could just remove the Asian label and
00:17:05
Speaker
flip it out with anything else and it would work. Like you could add, you know, women, black or Latino, and nothing really would change. So I think that's the problem with most of the programs that do exist out there from what we've seen. They're just very generic. They don't really speak to the unique experience of Asian and Asian-American professionals. Your spot on, Jenny, I think that's how exactly I see, because I also had the opportunity to be able to see some of the other development program, given like my professional role.
00:17:34
Speaker
And literally, when I was looking at their curriculum, I was like, you can apply any of the groups into those programs, just swap the name and maybe like the beginner, like the introduction could be different because they talk about like history of those groups. But that's it. That's pretty much that you would get from the customized development program.
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah, so if I could dive into one of those topics, I think Echo hinted at this and I think Jenny, you did too. Well, let's talk of the history of AAPIs in the US. I think like if we were to have like a module on just leadership, I think like to be able to understand the history, the immigration of Asian and Asian Americans. I think Asians have been in the US as early as I think like the 18th century. So I think they were South Asians that came over to the US.
00:18:24
Speaker
at a very early time in the US. And I think there are things that happened in the US that actually, in a way, promoted and allowed for Asian immigration to the US. And I think one of those is, guess what, it was actually tied to slaves being freed.
00:18:44
Speaker
with Emancipation Proclamation Act. And when slaves are freed, they needed another form of cheap labor. And guess what? Some of those people came from, I think, Japan, Korea, China, and other place, smaller Asian countries as well, too. And they were, I brought over to work on plantations, pineapple plantations, specifically by in like Hawaii, maybe
00:19:09
Speaker
somewhere in California as well too. So I think like we start out with like hey understanding the history of the immigration of how Asians became Asian Americans and the continuous process of Asians coming to the U.S. to work as green card holders, visa holders and whatnot. So I think like having a good understanding of that and how maybe even some of the laws and
00:19:36
Speaker
legislation has affected immigration, especially like the 1965 Immigration Naturalization Act that allowed families to reunify, but you can't just come over to the United States if you wanted to, right? You had to be really highly skilled to come over at that point. And of course, that of course would exclude certain folks and bring only certain folks, type of folks over at that time. So I think having something like that would be
00:20:04
Speaker
a great start for the audience who are looking to be part of this Asian development group, just to kind of like know oneself if that makes any sense.
00:20:17
Speaker
Okay. So you kind of touched on, I was going to ask, why is it important that these programs have a component or start with the history of Asian-American diasporas coming into the US? Like why is it important? Like what effect does it have on the now? I would say I think it would allow, let me speak for myself. It allows for me to really have a better understanding of like those who came before me and the challenges that they face and the challenges that they face because some of these,
00:20:46
Speaker
attitudes are systemic that I may face them as well too. The stereotype of Asians being coolies and low-skilled workers, while in a way that's changed to model minority, well, guess what? The coolie, which is a pejorative term, stereotype still persists. Some may be coming over high-skilled jobs and some may have low-skilled jobs.
00:21:15
Speaker
You know, I would say like in the 90s, when my family came over, like that was definitely, definitely there. So I think like having perspective and knowing like, hey, you have
00:21:27
Speaker
Asians who have been here like potentially first generation born here. You may have Asians that are first generation immigrating over here. And you may have Asians that are like fourth, fifth generation that's been here, but yet they still feel left out because they're viewed as perpetual foreigners or aliens in their own homeland. And it's kind of frustrating, right?
00:21:52
Speaker
I guess this gets back to one of the things we talk about quite a bit, right? You know how even the question of like where are you from? Right or a compliment of like where are you from and how would that could be? Scrutinize right or even like your English is good You know how a comment like that could be like sometimes a good or bad thing depending on the generation that you know, you're you're You're in so I think I would say like
00:22:21
Speaker
To give perspective, to understand where we were for those who look like us, and to know where we are now, and to have a better understanding of where the problems have been, what has gone away, and what is still the same.
00:22:59
Speaker
Can I also add to that? It's interesting that you mentioned, Doug, as the history also gave people a way to see what this group has been look like in the history and how they are being treated. I think that also created a business case. Why we need this program? Because historically that this group doesn't get that much of a resource because you are brought as a cheap labor. So as a cheap labor, you're supposed to work. You don't complain and you know, like you just
00:23:28
Speaker
Did every work? That, as a matter of fact, gave a legit reason why we need this program because we wanted to provide equal opportunity for this group.
00:23:37
Speaker
to participate in those more important roles in the organization. Do you think that because Asians are so plentiful in a lot of these jobs, in a lot of these industries, do you think they're sort of seen as like dispensable? I would say that was definitely the case. I think they actually, I think there's a book that I think Ronald, I'm going to butcher his last name because I forgot Tanaki. We may have to edit that out.
00:24:05
Speaker
We'll fact check.
00:24:20
Speaker
were dispensable. And we know that from even the history of the creation of the transcontinental railroad. There was a lot of lives. I think mostly Chinese workers lost their lives in the creation of that. But when it came time to take a picture of the connecting of the transcontinental railroad, I think somewhere in Utah,
00:24:41
Speaker
There was no, you know, there are no Asians to be found in those Those pictures or those things that recorded history And I think you know lives were I don't know if they still are now I think like there's a cynical side of me that thinks organizations think that or Organizations may feel that all people are dispensable because it's a business But I mean I would say historically there were
00:25:08
Speaker
I would say I would agree with you that they were probably viewed as less than or viewed as, yeah, like you said, dispensable, but more like the tone with that word, dispense, dispensable, being like more negative and more a little bit darker in meaning than than today. Sorry. Don't be sorry. Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. And I think that's, that's why it's important to open up with this
00:25:36
Speaker
sort of like the history of Asians in the US and the artifacts that still remain and how that affects how we show up at the workplace today. What other topic do we want to explore next?
Handling Workplace Microaggressions
00:25:47
Speaker
So next one that we talk about, should we look at microaggressions we experience? I mean, I know we did an entire episode on this or several episodes on this topic, but I don't think it would be a
00:26:01
Speaker
leadership development program for Asians and Asian Americans without talking about, hey, what are some of the typical workplace microgrations you experience and how do you combat them? How do you deal with them?
00:26:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think in the work we're about to publish, it'll highlight some of the things that Asian and Asian Americans face in the workplace. And I think for us as researchers, being able to unearth this and kind of deliver this to our audience, the readers of the article, and maybe even the listeners to our podcast to showcase
00:26:35
Speaker
Hey, these are the things that are going on that are maybe operating within your organization. You know, you may experience this, you know, a description of math competency. You may be viewed as submissive. Your work may, you know, you may get paid less than your counterpart because you're an Asian person. I think that's vital for folks to know. Now, is it surprising? Probably not.
00:27:04
Speaker
But it's nice to be able to showcase like, not only do people feel it, but we also have it showcase an empirical way and a way to also deliver it through literally a systemic way through institutions, academic institutions, should they read our work and talk about it and apply it.
00:27:25
Speaker
and maybe even organizations. I'm a little bit more skeptical of whether organizations read journal articles, but maybe we can digest it and put it into some other forms like a podcast or even an HVR article and disseminate it that way.
00:27:40
Speaker
I like that. And I think this also goes back to like, why do we want to have this module there? And I think, importantly, it's also going back to the HPR article on like, what makes the leadership development successful is
00:27:56
Speaker
importantly to have that self-reflection moment where I even like in our study I don't feel like everyone is aware there is this like microaggression that is happening there could be a case that they were treated
00:28:13
Speaker
as we would describe those experiences for them, but at the time or at the moment that they didn't realize this is a microaggression against them. So I think for the audience in this program, it's important to know like, hey, here's the clue or here's the signal that you're being treated differently and you're being microgressed. And here's some of the tactics that you should be aware of that we can
00:28:39
Speaker
combat that. So I think that's one of the reasons why we also wanted to put this modules there. I completely agree with that. And I think going off of what you said, Echo, I think it creates a space that we haven't really been given. So it's really rare that we are able to talk about the discrimination that we experience. And I think providing this context within this development program that's catered towards Asians
00:29:07
Speaker
kind of creates that safe space where they can start to talk about it and have their experiences validated. And then given the tools to say, how do you respond to them? And I just think it's a great way to kind of stop the gaslighting that we've been experiencing as a collective group, whether you're Asian American or Asian.
00:29:45
Speaker
Can I also add on to that? Echo, the fact that you said it'd be nice for us to have time to observe, right? And I would say in this development program, I would hope we have, throughout the different parts of the module, we have the abstract conceptualization of what microaggressions are and systemic racism is and how people actually feel about it and give examples so people can observe this
00:30:14
Speaker
And maybe even see people committing some of this stuff in role plays right like so there's like multiple ways of learning and going through this
00:30:25
Speaker
and understanding this that I feel like would also be essential to the development program that we have. And I want to echo like really Leake Nefelkamp who really talks a lot about like this cold learning cycle that we have that we in a way implement in the program that we came out of by taking folks to this like concrete experience, reflection, like
00:30:52
Speaker
abstract conceptualization and even like active experimentation so I think in a way like our our development program would have to anyway embrace a little bit of all that to showcase and bring folks along like Jenny said like you know to have that space to talk about this and have other people hear us hear us hurting and feeling a certain way and how things can be interpreted when we hear this or that
00:31:17
Speaker
And I imagine it would be... I think each individual is gonna have a different experience. Some people will love this and some people might be like, you know what, this is very uncomfortable for me because I...
00:31:30
Speaker
grew up believing that I'm a model minority, that racism doesn't apply to me. Because I've met a lot of Asian Americans who say that. Like, oh, I've never experienced racism, or they just don't want to admit it. And I think going through life in denial is their way of coping with the discrimination that they face. And then there are people like us who are like, no, no, no. I see it. I experience it. It's shit.
00:31:55
Speaker
So I wonder what are your thoughts on that? So I think different people, depending on where they are on their diversity journey, are going to react differently to this topic. Why do we care about people's reaction to this? That's what I'm going to say. I think there is a fact that this exists in the organization. And I think our job as the designer or the program owner for this leadership development program is to make people aware that this exists.
00:32:25
Speaker
You, of course, as every participant have their own experience, they can have reactions to it. Like they can say, this might not apply to me. Like there's little that we can control over like how people are accepting those facts. So to me, I think it's important for the program to consider that you should bring this awareness to them. But again, like it's up to the participant themselves.
00:32:52
Speaker
to either embrace this versus, I'm just denial of this, or I'm in the denial mode. I think that's fair. They should have that right. Echo, can I attempt to just answer that question? Why should we care about whether they feel a certain way? Well, I would say if they're the one making the decision,
00:33:14
Speaker
whether this program exists or not, if they're in a position of power, and they say like, well, I don't, you know, it's an Asian person, like, I don't feel that I've experienced this, I would, of course, I hope that we can, we would, you know, beg to differ. And I think, like Jenny said, like, we may be
00:33:31
Speaker
different Asians may be at different stages. And I think for our program, I wonder if there's a way for us to, in a way, encapsulate that, to showcase that, and then to bring folks along as well too. And also even to acknowledge that, right? But some folks may have experienced this, but may be in denial.
00:33:49
Speaker
Or they may be oblivious to these are the innocuous things, these are the subtle things that are happening because they have not been called a gook or a chink at work, so because they haven't, they haven't experienced racism.
00:34:06
Speaker
Well, there are other forms and hopefully we can pinpoint out some of those things for folks that it's not just the explicit. And actually sometimes the explicit is actually a little bit easier to discern because everyone knows what the heck that is.
00:34:22
Speaker
but not a lot of folks know what the subtle stuff is, right? Within the organization, maybe even for some Asian, Asian Americans, like some may not be able to pick that up, that these are the subtle things that are happening that could potentially stifle your career. And by the time you know it, or you figure it out, it may be too late, but we're here to tell you differently.
00:34:45
Speaker
thing in your own way. But it's just sad to hear people just downplay some of the racist things that they've heard at the workplace by their colleagues, by their boss or from their boss. So yeah, I do think it's important that we create a safe space and acknowledge that not everybody's going to have the same reaction and prepare for that. That was a great set of echo.
00:35:08
Speaker
Yeah, we're covering the range. What else? What else would we want to cover in our program? What other modules would we want to add to this development program?
Diversity Within the Asian Community
00:35:20
Speaker
And I think it extended from that microaggression experience there. I bet like different groups raising Asians might also have different experience. And what we talk about that might be more generational or that might be more
00:35:36
Speaker
people at different stage. But I think as we all know, within the Asian community, AAPI community, there are different groups of Asians and how they were being treated or how they experienced this workplace might also look different. So in the principle of like, we also wanted to highlight and be exclusive of this population, we need to showcase some of those.
00:36:03
Speaker
Yeah, totally agree. I think we can simply talk about maybe we can go to the history component of it, right, and talk about the immigration echo, like you said, and then for some folks, like, you know, first generation versus second generation, there may be amongst the different groups that experience similar things that they're navigating, you know, within the workplace, and maybe even family, family trauma.
00:36:27
Speaker
or family expectations of like, well, I didn't become that lawyer, doctor or engineer that my mom and dad wanted. And this is so fascinating because I also wondered, because this has also helped us to break that myth that all Asians are alike. Everyone is Chinese.
00:36:53
Speaker
that misconception really highlighted the diversity of this. And then related to that is also distinguishing the unique experiences of AAPI versus Asian professionals who maybe came over for work or their education. I think it's helpful to kind of untangle like what might be like even the different microaggressions from the perspective of AAPI versus Asian professionals. There might be a difference in how something like
00:37:23
Speaker
Oh, where are you from is interpreted or your English is really good. That might be a compliment to someone who just came from, um, you know, an Asian continent or Asian country, but that might be an insult to someone who is an Asian American, right? Yeah. I mean, what the heck, right? You tell somebody their English is really good and their family's been here five generations. Like that's like the only language I speak. What do you want? Yeah. Your English is really good too. Let's see what next.
00:37:51
Speaker
What do we want to talk about?
Code-Switching and Authenticity
00:37:53
Speaker
Um, how about let's go to code switching, right? Because I feel like there is, I would say like, even like in the Vietnamese community, there's like, you know, there's, there's a certain way you act at home versus the way you act outside. Right. And when you're talking in Vietnam, like in Vietnamese, when I'm speaking in Vietnamese, I may use Vietnamese English.
00:38:12
Speaker
make jokes with the language where homonyms and synonyms exist. But then I would have to switch that if I'm speaking to my brother and sister who don't understand as much English. So there's a bit of like, and I think this is actually the term used in other communities, code switching, being able to switch out the ability to speak in really another language or another code to bring
00:38:42
Speaker
other folks along and I would imagine that could you know that could also happen within like maybe even Asian smaller Asian communities of like different ethnic races but also like you know within same race as well too.
00:38:54
Speaker
And I think it's helpful to note that code switching while it is or a skill that a lot of us have to navigate the corporate workspace that is very white, that is very, you know, American, it's not the most ideal skill. We would hope that you don't have to code switch so that you can just be yourself.
00:39:12
Speaker
and be accepted for who you are. But we know that that is not the case. And so the skill is necessary, but it's necessary because the workplace is not set up in a way that is accepting of people who don't conform to that stereotype. And you know, this reminds me or this actually inspired me to design a different program for allies and people who are not in the API community. It's almost like, hey,
00:39:40
Speaker
Here's the co-switching tactics that people usually use when they deal with you. Like, you should make people's knife more easy. That's a separate module for sure, but I almost wonder, like, how much is, like, we teach the participants, like, hey, you should be aware that you're using this tactic on yourself, versus, like, hey, other people should aware that you should make people's knife easier. Oh, yeah, 100%. Can I give it a tickle?
00:40:27
Speaker
only about two months ago. So I was at this place where I had to go into this meeting that was possibly really intense, and there's a lot of folks I actually didn't know. I gave my name to the receptionist. The person behind me, I think, overheard my name. Heard it was Nguyen. Very obviously, very Vietnamese. And I think from the nonverbal behaviors that I had, it looked like I was a little nervous or tense or whatnot. So this woman comes up to me and says,
00:40:56
Speaker
You know, my last name is Win 2. I'm Vietnamese, right? So it's like, okay, there we have that connection. Like, oh, there's some like, maybe some history, like commonality, like some crossover there. And it was just something very subtle that she said. And she's like, you know, I hate, I hate it when people say banh mi sandwiches.
00:41:20
Speaker
I'm like, oh, she's like, yeah, banh mi means sandwiches already. So they're saying sandwiches, sandwiches. Like ATM machine, it's redundant. Yeah. You know, so it got me to just laugh and relax a little bit. I don't think like, I don't know if I was her intention to ease that, but that's what she was able to do for me. And I just kind of laugh and giggle a little bit. And we'd say hi here and there throughout the rest of the day and kind of head nod at each other, acknowledge each other's presence.
00:41:50
Speaker
But through that small little gesture, because she heard my last name, she switched over and say, you know why I really hate or yada yada? We know what really bugs me or what really drives my gear. And I thought this is hilarious. And that just put me in just a much lighter mood like the rest of the day. And I just I appreciate that so much. Yeah, because she wouldn't have said that to a white person or even an Asian person who was in Vietnamese. Yeah.
00:42:20
Speaker
Have you considered it? Oh, and you said this is a white woman or? No, Vietnamese woman. Okay, so because I was wondering if this will have a different effect if this comes from a white person. Oh, I think if that came from a white person, I would probably stand up and shake their hand. Also, you would appreciate it? I would appreciate it. Like if you understand the nuance and you know, like how to connect with me like that, like, hey, you know what, like, you know, this would be off.
00:42:48
Speaker
that like you know the fact that yeah they play well I think Jenny you earlier on that you like in previous episode you share the case where a white person did not play this like having very shallow understanding of your culture versus someone who actually understand that nuance in that culture and
00:43:08
Speaker
There's a career difference. There is. Because if a white person understood that, oh, Nguyen is a Vietnamese name, so I'm going to say something that's Vietnamese that actually applies to this person's culture and heritage, I see. I see versus them being like, oh, by the way, do you guys all eat dog?
00:43:27
Speaker
Yeah. So different, right? It's like one is like acknowledging like, you know, the redundancy within two languages and the other one's like, you know, painting us with broad brushstrokes. Yeah. Yeah. That's an awesome example. I think that's an example. Like if we were to, you know, hypothetically, if that person had been white, that's an example of an appropriate interaction, like appropriate cross-cultural interaction when you can
00:43:55
Speaker
identify the person's cultural heritage and you make an appropriate comment that is aligned to that person's cultural heritage rather than assuming everybody is Chinese or all Asians are the same.
00:44:07
Speaker
See, the more that we talk about this more is like, we need to design a site module just for the non-AAPI community. Lesson one, like co-switching tactic employed by this group, lesson two is like, don't assume that you know this culture or that you really know about their culture.
00:44:31
Speaker
So if I could add like one more quick thing to this, like we got Lunar New Year's right on the, and I think about two weeks or so. And I get this a lot like during Lunar New Year's, I get the Chinese version of Happy New Year. And I just kind of smile and nod.
00:44:48
Speaker
From who? Who gives you the Chinese version? It's mostly white folks, but I'm like, you know, I'm Vietnamese. Like, if you're gonna do that, like, hey, give it to me in Vietnamese. Google Translate is a lot better nowadays, right?
00:45:05
Speaker
I give it to me in Vietnamese. I know it's like it is derived from the Lunar New Year that Chinese people, I did spread over to Vietnam and I would say my Korea as well too. I think it's the three countries that actually celebrate mid-autumn festival and Lunar New Year's. But if you're going to give it to me, you're going to wish me that.
00:45:28
Speaker
say it in English, right? Happy Lunar New Year, Happy Chinese New Year, whatever. But like, don't, don't say it to me in Chinese. Oh, you had that? Oh, that's so cringe. So you had a white person say Happy Lunar New Year in Chinese to you? Many times, many times. And I would, my subtle thing was like, you know, thank you, I'm Vietnamese.
00:45:47
Speaker
And then the next question is, so you guys don't celebrate the new year? Yeah, Akko, if I said, like, 그복남마 to you and Jenny, what does that mean to you? Yeah. See, this is interesting because that's almost describing me as a majority in Asian versus you're a minority in Asian. In that sound, you're a certain way, Akko.
00:46:16
Speaker
But I could tell you like in the startup I was at When it was something that was new and dear to me and I don't get to celebrate that that often and but I wanted to acknowledge it so what I did was I went to Chase Bank and They actually had red envelopes I asked for them and I asked for like a couple hundred dollars and two dollar bills and everyone within the organization Got a red envelope that morning
00:46:43
Speaker
Okay, so everyone. I think that's it. So if I were to get a red envelope and everybody else got a red envelope, I don't think I would have a negative reaction. But if my boss gave me a Chinese New Year or a red envelope, yeah, just to me, I would feel kind of weird about that.
00:47:03
Speaker
Yeah, I thought about that. And I think that was something that I wanted to like not have to navigate because it's like, well, you know, Duke's director of people is playing favorites to the Asian folks. You know, I'm like, it's $2. Okay. Okay. But like, I also wanted other folks like asked, Hey, what is this? And I wanted that to be the thing of the day. Like, why did you give us this? What does this mean? Why? Why? Why? I've never seen a $2 bill before. Is this real?
00:47:33
Speaker
I wanted that stir. That's a great call out. It's like almost like if you wanted to make the Lunar New Year as a public holiday, make it for all. Like you can just ask people to like Chinese people or Japanese people or Korean people to get that one day off because you assume that they celebrate this. Yeah. I think in some parts of Jersey, they're getting like the Indian holidays off like Diwali. Diwali? Did they just pass that?
00:48:03
Speaker
I think back in November, Diwali in November, which my boss was asking me at work. It was like, oh, I saw like for, well, she's Indian. And so she celebrate Diwali, but it's one, they celebrate in November. And I told her I'm going to be home for the Lunar New Year. And she's like, well, so both culture come from this like agriculture route to having those calendars. Like why the two are so separate from each other? I was like,
00:48:33
Speaker
That's a good question. I wonder if it has something to do with the attitude that India is in a different attitude than China and that therefore the timing are different. So I get into that scientific mode immediately. But that's a great cloud. Why there's so many different calendars.
00:48:52
Speaker
What an amazing conversation that came out of that, right? Why do we celebrate something similar, but we call it different and we celebrate at different times. That makes for a really interesting conversation in my perspective. Wow, that's really cool. See, another topic that people can discuss if they're coming from a different culture. Do you have a separate calendar? Why is that?
00:49:18
Speaker
And the answer is yes. I think the answer is because we're different. I mean, we're different cultures, different locations, different languages. So of course, the holidays that we celebrate, even if it's something similar, is going to look very different. So I think that's a great way to kind of bridge the divide while also pointing out how we're unique.
Need for Systemic Change in Organizations
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:39
Speaker
I think the other topic that I think is important and we thought it was important to discuss was acknowledging that both you and the system have to change. So the reason why a lot of leadership development programs get criticism is because they place so much onus and the burden on the participant to lean in. Like you have to do more of this. You have to do that. You have to develop all these skills without acknowledging like what can other people do? Like what can allies do? What can the system do? What can leaders do?
00:50:08
Speaker
So one, one topic that we wanted to discuss or that we thought was important to cover in this module was what can you as an individual do, but what can you also do to help change the system? Because this shouldn't just be about Asians leaning in more Asians, you know, asserting ourselves more. So I would love to know like what your perspective is.
00:50:30
Speaker
Yeah. So I would say like, you know, if we have a problem that systemic, I don't think fixing the problem with the person is going to change the systemic problem, right? Systemic problems require systemic solutions, not individual solutions. And you can have those.
00:50:45
Speaker
but they won't be as effective. Let's say the semi-problem is that Asians aren't being spotlighted enough to speak in leadership meetings. Should they just always be butting in more or just trying to wedge themselves in? We can ask individuals to do that.
00:51:09
Speaker
But we know the problem is that there isn't a time given to different folks from different perspectives. And even if we ask people to change that individually, that's not gonna change the systemic problem. I think for organizations who are thinking about this holistically, maybe it becomes a, hey, how do we provide an opportunity for all our folks in the meeting
00:51:35
Speaker
to give a perspective on this and to allow introverts and extroverts to think about and process and be able to regurgitate, not regurgitate, but to give their thoughts, their deep thoughts on a topic that's important to us. And I think that could be something that if they would approach it that way as opposed to the individual need to change, I think that would be more effective.
00:52:00
Speaker
And that also brought up the very interesting topic that we have covered earlier is like, how can we also make sure that people are not in this program also aware some of those challenge that this group is having. By default, when you're having a participant from this
00:52:20
Speaker
population participating in this program because you want them to change something so they can get to, and this is not saying like that you want Asians to change. This is like literally like for every single people who went through like leadership development work. You wanted them to work on something so they can eventually get to that final destination.
00:52:39
Speaker
Which I also realized like for this group of people it's almost like it's equally important to make sure that the system gets the challenge that they are facing. The system is the one that we also need to work on rather than the individuals that they need to change on themselves. Could I give another example? I'm gonna pick on myself real quick, right?
00:53:03
Speaker
So, of course, my name is Duke. It's a very easy name to pronounce because I've lived with it my entire life. And for some folks, the first time, they made me be really hard, right? And this may apply to like other ethnic names as well, too. You know, maybe my name is too hard to pronounce. So the easy, the individual answer is like, well, Duke, you change your name. Yeah, I can do that. I can do that.
00:53:27
Speaker
I could do that and other people can do that as well too. But then now I am now navigating the world with in a way two identities. But if the organizations were to embrace like, well, Duke wants to be called Duke and it's not too big of a lift, why can't we adjust to that? So even I think folks say my name or say my name wrong, I rather they say my name wrong.
00:53:58
Speaker
I rather them go out of their way a little bit to change a bit of themselves, to learn a little bit about they want to know what my name means and whatnot. That's absolutely fine. I'd love to talk about that. I'd love to talk about what their name means and what it means to them and their family as well, too. But I think it allows, you know,
00:54:19
Speaker
you know, in doing so, like changing the organization, like allowing that change to say like, there's certain things we're not willing to, if we change it as an individual, it doesn't change the racism. At me changing my name to say Dean or Drake or Duke doesn't change the systemic racism that's out there with ethnic games. But if we have discussion about that, that may change the perspective of what ethnic names mean and what those people with ethnic names mean.
00:54:48
Speaker
or even like folks with accents. What does that mean to come to work and speak English with an accent? It may mean you know multiple languages and you know it damn well enough to come work for this organization. Can we have that conversation as well? I think like it needs to be turned on its head a little bit. I also want to add that I don't want to change my name because I'm lazy. So if my name was like PHUC, I would more than most likely change it. Okay, this is out of like my laziness, okay, of not
00:55:17
Speaker
wanting to go because I think I did I try that once I tried it once like at a Starbucks okay you know you give these Starbucks names yeah and when they called out whatever it is I gave the name that I gave I didn't know who it was what name did you give them I don't remember I think it may have been Dean or something like that oh so you gave a random name yeah yeah I mean you start with a D at least and uh I was just when they were waiting for my coffee I had like
00:55:46
Speaker
Where the hell did I just walk by? Just give me your avocado.
00:55:52
Speaker
And I'm like, where the hell is this going to come out? It's been like 10 minutes. Dean? Dean? What the hell's Dean? The pastor's got his coffee before I am. You forgot. I wanted to kind of piggyback off of what Echo said, which is how do you place, how do you kind of share the burden?
Teaching Allyship Across Minority Groups
00:56:12
Speaker
And I think that brings up a really good point, how like other leadership development programs could feature a section of their module that talks about how you can be an ally to other folks.
00:56:22
Speaker
And, you know, we would do the same thing too, like as Asian American, Asian professionals, how can you be an ally to your fellow, you know, Latino and Black professionals? So I think those need to be that if we're going to try and change the system.
00:56:34
Speaker
I love that. And this also make a connection to the other leadership program in place. And at the same time, and this is probably one place where you will see all the program will have a similar module on that, because we want you to be allies to each other, rather than just having identical content throughout the entire leadership programs.
Wrap-up and Audience Feedback
00:57:01
Speaker
Well, we will continue our conversation on this topic in the next episode where we are going to be also covering what are the speakers that we wanted to invite to this program and what kind of skills that we wanted to build from this program. So stay tuned on the next episode.
00:57:20
Speaker
Yeah. And if our audience has any other things that they want to bring up or think that may be important for an Asian development program, please reach out to us and let us know. Yep. And you can reach us at hi ps.
00:57:33
Speaker
A-T-A-1 at gmail.com. We'll also put that in our podcast description so you can reach out to us. We would love to hear from you all. And do we have a Haiku? I asked Tragedy BT to write a Haiku for building a leadership development program for Asians. And it writes back as Eastern Wisdom Blooms.
00:57:58
Speaker
Leadership stands, a secret art grows in cherry steps. Hmm. Interesting. All right. Cool. All right. Glad to chat with you. He's helping us with our haiku. He's not taking over the world just yet. Not quite. Not quite. Not quite. Great. Well, we'll see you on our next episode of Hidden in the Plain site, your podcast for all things Asian in the workplace. Bye. Bye.
00:58:33
Speaker
So,