Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Real Talk with Leaders in the Field: Becoming Vivian Woo
77 Plays2 months ago
Dr. Vivian Woo, published author, Lead People Science at Culture Amp, and Chair of 2024 Society for Industrial Organizational Psychology spoke to us about the journey she took to becoming an industrial organizational psychologist. Vivian spoke about the challenges she faced in graduate school, mentorship, or lack there of, as she progressed, the obstacles she navigated at work, and advice she would give to the next generation of Psychologists. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Special Episode
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome listeners to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. I'm one of your co-hosts, Duke. I'm Echo. I'm Jenny. All right. Hey Echo and Jenny. We have a very special episode. I'm really excited for today. On our program, we've been doing these special episodes where we actually highlight Asian leaders
Meet Dr. Vivian Wu
00:00:27
Speaker
in the field. Today we have Dr. Vivian Wu with us. I got a chance to meet Vivian a few years back at SIA.
00:00:35
Speaker
I want to say like five, six years ago. Wow. Yeah. Vivian is a lead people scientist at Culture Amp. She leads a team that consults to organizations that improves their long-term strategy. This means that she's been in a position to talk to people and top leadership with an organization.
Research and Professional Focus
00:00:53
Speaker
It also means that she's probably had a lot of hard conversations with these leaders and top leadership. And I'm really excited to hear Vivian's perspective on balancing her work.
00:01:03
Speaker
that she does in the field and bringing her whole self to work. On top of this, she also does research on DEI, incorporating it into performance management and navigating emotional labor. Dr. Wu is also the 2024 SIOP chair. This means that she works really hard with other SIOP personnel.
00:01:25
Speaker
to make the conference happen. And I don't know about you two. Well, I actually do know about you two, because we had an episode on this. SIOP 2024 was one of the best SIOPs that I've ever been to. And listeners, you can't see this, but Vivian was giving thumbs up and yeah, and herself.
00:01:44
Speaker
Fun facts about Vivian, she's also a member of Mensa.
Career Achievements
00:01:50
Speaker
Mensa is one of the oldest high IQ society organizations, and I believe you have to score at least a 98 percentile to even be considered. So I know this introduction doesn't do justice to Vivian, but let's take a moment to just welcome her if that's okay.
00:02:09
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Vivian, is there anything else you'd like to add so that our listeners know a little bit more about you?
00:02:18
Speaker
Yes. So I have been an external practice as an IO practitioner for over a decade now. My main focus is people analytics. So conducting people analytics projects for customers around the globe, actually, which is very different from a lot of other external practitioners who have a general, a more regionalized focus.
00:02:40
Speaker
for the whole of my career. I've been working with customers across so many different time zones, so many different continents, and it's just been an absolutely amazing experience. Well, I don't know where to start. Where should we start?
Vivian's Career Journey and Challenges
00:02:53
Speaker
So I think Vivian's got a really interesting history and a great amount of experience for, I mean, for us ourselves to learn from and our listeners too. And I feel like she's up for just any questions that we may want to start, whether it be just about her work background,
00:03:08
Speaker
or how she conducts herself with the work she does and how she has to tell, you know, give good news and bad news to people in top leadership. Any thoughts on where we wanna start? I'm game for anything, so let's go. Okay, so what got you interested in the topic of talent development? So, okay, let's start from the beginning. Back in ye olden grad school days, as many listeners may recall,
00:03:38
Speaker
The key thing, I had no idea what I wanted to do. It just so happened that my first job was an intern at a consulting company. I'm like, what part?
00:03:53
Speaker
different facet of IO to want to go into. And it just happened to be employee engagement and surveys. I was actually thinking back, reflecting fairly recently, I would be very surprised at the person that I am now when I was maybe even in high school because of how I've developed so much. I hated public speaking. I absolutely despised public. I was terrified.
00:04:19
Speaker
even though I competed in like some public speaking events in high school. Really? Yes, yes. Now conducting presentations, giving talks, being on podcasts. Yeah. It's I've come a long way. And that is that speaks to the very shoving as much experience.
00:04:39
Speaker
into my life as possible to figure out, to get comfortable with it. I think that's where a lot of my nervousness came from early on, is
Career Development and Independence
00:04:50
Speaker
my lack of experience. I didn't know what to expect. And having been an external practitioner for the entirety of my career,
00:05:02
Speaker
That's just the nature of working with customers. You never really know what to expect from them. And I got some wild stories. I can't share all of them publicly, but I got some wild stories. And it's only through going through those tough experiences that you really learn to be resilient.
00:05:19
Speaker
in the face of difficulty and adversity. I don't think you get strong by playing it safe or playing it easy. So as you're going through this process, going through these experiences, did you have someone to look up to? Did you have someone to guide you? I would say for the majority of my working life, it is me figuring out for myself.
00:05:40
Speaker
I had no one that I could look up to, no one that I could seek advice from, especially with an understanding of my background. And this, unfortunately, stemmed from my parents. They couldn't help me in grad school. I had to figure out how to navigate grad school and be successful on my own. First person with a PhD in my family, not the last, though. My brother has one, too.
00:06:03
Speaker
And then going from that place of having an advanced degree, having my Pete doctorate and trying to navigate a very different professional space.
00:06:17
Speaker
then my parents, you know, had that their experience very different from their own experiences. They couldn't make connections for me. I had to go make those connections for myself. And I think what really helped me is that I realized my lack of experience early on. So I would made very intentional decisions to cram as much experience as possible. I remember orientation at
00:06:45
Speaker
my PhD program at Hofstra that first day, that literally the first day of my PhD program, I was listening to my classmates talk about their experience, their education, and I realized I was lagging behind because I had done a bit of a career transition.
00:06:59
Speaker
I had been in pharmaceuticals and then gone back years later to get my master's and then my subsequent doctorate. So I had a lot of work experience, but none of it was in the IO space. So I made, I ensured, I promised myself during that time, during grad school, I would do whatever I could to gain as much relevant experience as possible.
00:07:18
Speaker
to the point where I remember applying for jobs and just the random jobs, being research assistant, being a tutor and being a TA. And people were impressed by my resume because I was very intentional crafting those experiences, seeking them out and incorporating them and learning from them. And I've done that beyond graduate school in my own career in that I haven't focused just on the experiences.
00:07:47
Speaker
I've had two jobs, fundamentally, for 20 years. So I have my day job. So right now, I'm a lead people science analyst at Culture, but I've also been a game master for an online role playing game, tech space role playing game for 21 years.
00:08:01
Speaker
Yes, continuously 21 years. On top of your 40, 50, whatever hour day job, I've been doing this on top of volunteering for PSYOP and gaining all these experiences in so many different types of organizations and structures and meeting people from so many different backgrounds that it has prepared me for pretty much anything at this point. Wow.
Mentoring and Supporting Asian Women
00:08:28
Speaker
So what I found interesting, and this is also why, you know, my lack of anybody to look up to, just kind of figuring out for myself, made me want to give back. So when mentorship programs started opening up, when SEMA had their mentorship program, they launched that. I served as a mentor for several years. I served on the WIN, the Women's Inclusion Network, the SAIO committee. Their mentorship committee. I have been a mentor in Asians and IO.
00:08:59
Speaker
And also for people who reach out to me, who I meet in different networking events or other events. Anybody who wants to have a career conversation, I'm more than happy to have that conversation with you. So I recognize, especially people, especially women of color, Asian women, provide some advice, insights that they may not hear from people who don't look like them, who haven't experienced
00:09:27
Speaker
things have similar experiences and similar backgrounds. And share what are the benefits, but what are the considerations and the barriers that you will face and how to potentially prepare yourself for those. Let me ask you a question, Vivian.
00:09:57
Speaker
You said you didn't have people to look up to. Could you speak more about
Challenges for Asian Women in Leadership
00:10:01
Speaker
that? Yes. It always felt like you have managers. So your manager is the first person that you try to get some coaching and development from. The unfortunate bit is that I've had some pretty bad managers in the past where coaching and development was not
00:10:22
Speaker
in their skill set. They didn't know how to do it. So when I was seeking out how to improve my own abilities and my own competencies, they were not able to provide feedback, coaching, anything that remotely helpful. Secondly, most of my, well, actually, up until fairly recently, most of my managers have been white.
00:10:45
Speaker
So there is, some of them have been women, some of them have been men, but it creates this barrier, this unable to relate to the experiences of being an Asian woman in a field that, especially in practice, there are fewer Asian women in practice than in, let's say, academia in IO.
00:11:04
Speaker
I remember planning a sci-op session years ago about ethnic minorities in external practice and trying to come up with some prominent names. This was a few years ago, and it was really difficult. I leaned on a lot of my informal network to find people, but there weren't really prominent figures. It felt like a very white-dominated space, and it still is, unfortunately.
00:11:35
Speaker
I felt, you know, I saw that gap and I couldn't, when I tried to approach my managers, my white managers, like, Hey, can you help me? The advice they gave did not resonate with how I would be perceived engaging in those behaviors.
00:11:51
Speaker
I had one manager say, yeah, tell a lot of jokes. But then he highlighted a few other people who tried that. Surprisingly, unsurprisingly, it worked if you were white. But if you were of a racial or ethnic minority, it didn't come across, especially given who your audience was, which was predominantly white, too, when you were presenting to executives.
00:12:14
Speaker
I mean, there was fairly consistent. I remember one executive presentation. I do think I was the only minority in the room and that was a group of 30 people.
00:12:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was, it was, yes. And then, and then on top of, you know, now, now a lot of these presentations are occurring on Zoom, which saves you from the awkwardness of the small talk, especially the small talk is, can be very interesting where you can experience a lot of microaggressions.
00:12:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I think everybody knows this one is where are you from? And talking to a lot of my white friends, you know, there's a lack of awareness of just how how it comes across. They think it's where it is.
00:13:11
Speaker
We know what those connotations means, like you're othering us by saying we're not, when I say I'm from New Jersey, you know, that doesn't suffice. You need to know my, the immigration status. Which eggs are the turnpike in Jersey? What exit are you? And gladly share that. But I'm just as American as you.
00:13:38
Speaker
So Vivian, you mentioned that you try all those different experiences since when you started to realize that you're the only person in the room. I've always been mindful of the spaces that I'm in, especially when you're like, oh, crap, I'm at a party and I'm the only minority person here. Being in very white spaces has been, that awareness has always been part of my experience.
00:14:06
Speaker
So of course, and then especially when I was a consultant talking to my other coworkers of color about our shared experience, it was really interesting, black coworkers, Hispanic coworkers, other Asian coworkers. It was, there were a lot of shared experiences, needless to say. Were they able to help you navigate some of the, I want to say like glass maze?
00:14:34
Speaker
We all struggled with the same issues because we were working in the same organization. It was an ongoing challenge that none of us collectively could have figured out. And this is one of the unfortunate realities is sometimes there is no solution. It's that you struggle, but no matter what you do as an individual or the few individuals that you are, changing the system is so tough. And sometimes you have to seek greener pastures.
00:15:03
Speaker
That's so real of a statement, right? We as individuals or even groups, while we may have great things that we want to do for the system, the system is just so much bigger than us. Exactly. It requires allyship and advocacy. Minoritized groups can't do it on their own. Majority groups have to step up.
00:15:23
Speaker
We can't be the ones shouldering all that burden. They have to do their homework. They have to invest. They need to actively listen to our voices rather than gaslighting us and kind of disregarding our experiences and validating them. Yeah. Oh, preach. What was helpful? What helped navigate these spaces when you were navigating what Doug referred to as, I love this, the glass maze. So one of the things, you know, one of the experiences that I absolutely leaned on was building my network.
The Importance of Diverse Networks
00:15:53
Speaker
So even if I felt a bit more isolated in my workplace, I had a broader network I could lean on, a very diverse network. And I would lean on my colleague, like those people in my network, my friends, my close friends who have similar experiences and talk about that, gain their perspective. Yeah, because sometimes you're dealing with sensitive issues and you can't really talk about it with your coworkers.
00:16:22
Speaker
So you need to take it out of the organization, have your personal confidants, workshop a few things, and then go back and try a different approach. Wow. It seems like you, in a way, being in all these different facets and creating these networks, and when you're at your own organization, you go back and you tap into these networks to make sure that... Always. Oh, I love that.
00:16:52
Speaker
Well, I think networks are social resources. They're useful in so many different regards. Sometimes you just need someone just to comfort you, just to vent at, to help you regulate your emotions during the ups and downs of work life. Other times you need more strategic advice. You need maybe expertise that doesn't exist in your organization.
00:17:21
Speaker
It's like you may have a technical problem. Sometimes there's an R code thing. I'm trying to code something. I don't. Hitting a wall and then you reach out to some people like, hey, do you have any advice? Any suggestions? This is the problem. All of that. And other times it's, you know,
00:17:39
Speaker
less technical and more strategic is that I'm trying to push forward. I'm trying to get this thing done. Any suggestions on, this is what I've done, X, Y, and Z so far. Always present what you've done, what you've tried, and then see if they have any other suggestions of how to achieve the, how you can achieve the goals that you're trying to achieve.
00:18:00
Speaker
about what you mentioned just remind me of one of the articles that we discussed in the previous episodes where essentially the scholars were finding like for most Asians, especially like East Asians, our network tend to be very homogeneous versus their white counterparts or even some of the other group in the Asian society. So what you did is just an opposite of that. And no wonder like that makes you the neither.
00:18:31
Speaker
Oh, you're trying to say something? Oh, no, no. I think I recognize the need for diversity. I recognize that
00:18:43
Speaker
I'm very experience seeking, so understanding people's experiences, especially people who are very different from me, is very important. I want to understand them. In personal conversations, one of my goals, I love traveling, and one of them is to visit all 50 states. It is incredibly interesting to visit states that, as someone from New York, New Jersey, that may not necessarily be welcoming
00:19:13
Speaker
You may not think that there are a lot of Asians there and there aren't. Have you visited Iowa? Yeah. But it is seeing how people live differently, how what their day-to-day lives look like, how it varies from what my day-to-day life looks like. There are a lot of commonalities, but there are also substantial differences. And unfortunately, I've definitely encountered racism.
00:19:44
Speaker
traveling around, that's just, you kind of prepare yourself, especially for certain places to expect it. But that doesn't diminish from the experience of just seeing, you know, different parts of our country, cuisine, I love food, I love food, tasting local cuisine and just exploring just so much of what's available.
00:20:26
Speaker
So it sounds like you went out of your way to diversify your network. You built that network. What were some of the things that you did that helped you kind of do what I think it's not just Asians, but a lot of white people, for example, their network is predominantly white. So what was something that you did that helped you diversify and expand your network? Get involved in multiple organizations. I think a lot of people focus just on the workplace.
00:20:50
Speaker
And that is a very limited domain to meet individuals because look, they have the same hiring process. You're working in the same industry. You're not basically multithreading your networks.
00:21:05
Speaker
Like I said, I've had a secondary job for 21 years, plus my day job. So I've made really deep connections and friends across all the various workplaces that I've been at, as well as school. But I also have that game, deep friendships with people in that gaming space, on top of the work that I've done with SIOP, on top of Asians and IO, on top of Metro, so joining a lot of professional organizations.
00:21:31
Speaker
provides a lot of structure to the interactions where it isn't just kind of you're at a random networking event and you meet somebody and you're like, okay, now what? Whereas when you join an organization and work on projects and different initiatives together, the work provides structure in navigating those relationships to build them, to fortify them into something more substantial than it was when you first started.
00:21:59
Speaker
I mean, just think about how you make friends in the workplace. Like you're brought together, you're rent. When you first join, you don't know anybody generally. Interactions with coworkers over time, some of them eventually become your friends and maybe some of your best friends. So that proximity and that structure, it just helps to foster really deep connections. How do you maintain those relationships? Because I think it's one thing to establish them, but like maintaining them. Yeah. It is
Embracing Identity and Overcoming Stereotypes
00:22:27
Speaker
difficult. I think
00:22:29
Speaker
Sometimes life is gonna get busy, you know, and you haven't reached out to somebody in a while. You know, months may pass between in contact and that's okay because everybody experiences that. There's no way you can maintain like a hundred strong relationships. You're gonna have a core, like a small number of people that you're probably gonna interact nearly every day with or at least every week with.
00:22:54
Speaker
Keeping those connections alive, thinking about the people in your day to day, I'm like, oh, I haven't talked to this person in a while. This made me recall, yeah, I should probably reach out to this person to see how they're doing. Social media is a great way. LinkedIn, when people announce they've moved jobs or any other kind of milestone, I'm like, hey, congratulate them.
00:23:13
Speaker
Even if you can't devote the energy to a deep relationship at that time, there is still light contact. And then when schedules and the context aligns that you can maybe get together if you're in the same space or when time allows. How do you feel about your identity as an Asian woman in that space? Do they differ?
00:23:37
Speaker
where do you find your comfort zone or somebody want to disrupt that comfort zone? So in all of the groups, there are absolutely the diversity varies quite a lot, where there may be a lot of other Asians or very little.
00:23:54
Speaker
Regardless of the representation of the organization that I'm in, I'm open and honest about my background and who I am. I don't hide it. It is not something that can be hidden, but it is part, it
00:24:10
Speaker
has influenced how I see and approach the world. And when my identity is impacting my opinion about something, I will highlight that. So I do not feel afraid to highlight my background when it's meaningful to the conversation. Being such a theorist, have you ever encountered backlash when you act like that?
00:24:39
Speaker
Not directly. The indirect backlash is hard to tell because sometimes you don't know because you can never be certain. Yeah, could you speculate for us? All I can say is that actually it's hard to tell whether it's backlash or just the identity itself and not the incident.
00:24:58
Speaker
because I found, especially in progressing in my career, that the speed at which I've progressed is a lot slower than a lot of white colleagues where they're very clearly under less qualified. And then it manifests in what I think is I see imposter syndrome on their part. But then when I finally get my opportunity, I'm fully prepared because it's been a delayed decision for me.
00:25:29
Speaker
I've been fully equipped for X number of years where you promoted so and so early and they weren't ready for that position, but because they were white, great. They got the benefit of their privilege, but you have to work ever so much harder and be so much more exemplar.
00:25:48
Speaker
that when it is finally your time, it's like you hit the ground running because you are so much more prepared, because you weren't put into the position early, under qualified. The struggle is real, but it also builds resilience and determination and then helps fortify your skillset because, so there are pros and cons. What I'd like to advance quicker?
00:26:17
Speaker
But I also see how other people have struggled. I don't think there's a perfect answer. I have absolutely wondered because no one will ever say outright. You know, you can never get someone to say outright. It's because of your rate because and maybe they're maybe it's unconscious. You don't know if it's because you're not you're not what we think a leader looks like. Yeah. So that may be coloring their perceptions and making decisions.
00:26:42
Speaker
You know, something that came up is, and I have no data to support this, but, and I would love to gather data on this, is, or could it be that people of color, including Asians, when they are promoted to like a senior leadership level, they have significantly more experience, significantly more qualifications than... I actually have studied on that, so I did.
00:27:05
Speaker
I do research projects for customers and actually one of my customers was looking at the experiences of men and women who were promoted. And it found that women who were promoted generally were far more positive in their experience than men. But then I found evidence in their data suggesting it's because they're far more qualified. It takes more to get them promoted.
00:27:30
Speaker
As I was speaking of my own experience, it takes more to get them promoted, that they've endured the longer process to advance. They've built up their skill set. They've built up their own resilience. They've created coping strategies.
00:27:48
Speaker
amassed resources, all of that. Because not only having generally more positive experience, but in the one area that they were lower is that people from different backgrounds have the opportunity to succeed compared to their male counterparts. So they understand that it's actually hard to succeed, but these were women who were promoted. So my conclusion was that the bar is set higher for women to be promoted than for men.
00:28:15
Speaker
And thus, that's why they were having a more generally more positive experience because they've been preparing, they are more qualified. So yeah, there is, I have some, some evidence and some of the research that I've been doing and yeah, it takes more. I think there are ways to find out. Just a lot of organizations aren't doing it.
00:28:36
Speaker
I wonder what that would look like for Asians. Yeah, I mean, there's been a lot of research about how especially Asian women are probably of all the ethnic, gender, intersectional identities is the least likely to be in that executive. Trying to remember where, it's been a few years, but I remember that research, I was like, oh, all right, it's an uphill battle. It wouldn't make sense. I mean, like it's the double intersection that
00:29:03
Speaker
being a minority racial ethnicity and then being a woman in the world. So that adds up. And pointing at stereotype, you know, you think of the stereotypes of being Asian women and it was not one of necessarily of leadership, although with Kamala Harris running for president, it
00:29:27
Speaker
It will take time for those perceptions, hopefully to shift, but we're dealing with these longstanding biases. So it does make it more difficult when our generally white leaders are making decisions about who to promote into leadership roles.
00:29:47
Speaker
That's why representation is so important because Kamala Harris, people forget. She's not just black, she's also South Asian. Yes, exactly, exactly. Having a white male endorse her.
00:29:59
Speaker
That's rare. Allyship. Allyship is so important. Allyship and advocacy. I think allyship is a little bit more passive. Advocacy is legitimately stepping up and doing something. I always joke every successful Asian woman needs a white man to back her up. Sometimes you just have to play that card.
00:30:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's the fallback plan because it sometimes fails. They see your face, but not your substance. And it's very, very difficult depending on, I mean, sometimes you have an audience that's like that and you just can't break through.
00:30:47
Speaker
How do you stay positive about this? Because you mentioned you started from a different industry, you got into IO psychology, and you've seen other folks get promoted before you, eventually you get promoted. How do you go about sustaining all the things that you do, right?
Resilience and Positive Change
00:31:05
Speaker
So, I wouldn't call it staying positive. I think it's pushing through.
00:31:11
Speaker
Staying positive, it's being hopeful. I think being hopeful is different from staying positive. Being hopeful means that there's a chance. I mean, as a statistician, of course, nothing's ever 100%. There's a glimmer of hope. It's like, I am hopeful that I will win the lottery, but it's specifically likely.
00:31:32
Speaker
But there's a chance. I think part of it is my personality. Stubborn. Stubborn, very challenge oriented. I kind of love a challenge.
00:31:44
Speaker
But I also think it is, and this goes back to my dissertation research on emotions, is that if you look at the circumflex model of emotions, we have activation and valence, right? So energy associated with different emotional states, and then positive versus negative. I find anger a very useful emotion. I think it's very easy to get angry at a lot of things that are going on in this world. But you can channel that energy, the anger that you feel, because anger is a very high energy emotion.
00:32:15
Speaker
into productive. Make your anger productive. So when people protest, when people actually take action based off of, you know, feeling the injustices of the world, saying that that's not right. This is not how it should be.
00:32:31
Speaker
It fuels the decisions, it fuels the actions that push you forward, especially when times are tough. Being sad about it, you know, you're going to be sad about it, but shifting it from just being sad, which is a low energy emotion, to one of activation, one of energy, helps motivate you. When you think of like a lot of the social justice movements, it's based on anger, that this is not right.
00:32:54
Speaker
And you don't want to be, you don't want to have destructive anger. You want to manage it in a constructive way. So be angry, stay angry, but be thoughtful and logical in how you channel that anger. I love that. And I love that it kind of goes against all the stereotypes that people have about us Asians and we can be angry. We can be proactive.
00:33:13
Speaker
We can be agentic. I love that. And you're like a prime example of that, Vivian. Be assertive. I think this is looking at other, especially Asian women early on in my career, you know, not necessarily in IO, but just in the workplace. I saw that they were not, they were some of the least assertive people. And it made me very sad because I saw how they were being taken advantage of.
00:33:38
Speaker
It's like, oh, why don't you just take the call early? You can do this. You can do that. And they say yes. Part of our upbringing, the socialization of acquiescing and trying to be kind. So missing this. Exactly, exactly. So that pissed me off.
00:33:53
Speaker
And I promised myself that would not be the case for me. So making decisions early on about how I want to live my life, how I want to have agency in my life, how I want to be able to advocate for myself and speak my truth and not be silenced. And I see that very logical line there.
00:34:11
Speaker
in order to be angry and define the stereotype that people are having on you, you have to be prepared. And that makes all the sense from what you just shared, like be prepared and then be angry. And that actually go hand in hand. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, being prepared is...
00:34:32
Speaker
Having a contingency plan or multiple contingency plans, super important because things can go sideways. Be like, what's the best case scenario? And what would you do? And what's the worst case scenario? What would you do? If you can have both ends of the spectrum, you're going to be ready for because it'll fall either between the best outcome or the worst outcome. And either way, you'll be prepared because you've prepared for both. You know, in the middle, you'll be able to pivot.
00:34:56
Speaker
much more easily. I think no understanding yourself is so important about what can you handle, what can you handle. If it's something you can't handle, then don't do it because it will cause more damage than the potential benefits. That's great advice. So the advice is stay angry, be prepared, be agendaing. I love that.
00:35:28
Speaker
Vivian, I cannot let you go before I ask any questions about Psy Up. Okay. All right. Let's go. And we can always edit it out if you felt like we started to touch up on some sensitive topics over there.
00:35:44
Speaker
I mean, like Doug mentioned earlier, it was one of the most amazing sign up I have ever attended. And I've seen so many Asian faces up on the stage. You're there, Winnie was there. And we see so many, not only just Asians, but Asian woman faces there.
00:36:00
Speaker
I don't know if it's intentionally, but for some reason, for so many years, that's the year that we see all the Asian women shine. Yeah, I know. It was really great that both the program and conference chair were Asian women. It was really special. I think Chicago, there's no perfect conference, but it was very successful.
00:36:21
Speaker
It was very successful and I'm very proud of what we were able to achieve. I know that certain SIOP leaders have been very careful and very thoughtful in the fostering of leadership. I know that when I recruit for my committees, I look for people who don't necessarily see themselves.
00:36:41
Speaker
speak to the advantages of volunteership, which include networking. I have to say that I would not have been able to program chair without volunteering and demonstrating my capabilities in those structured spaces in committee work, because committee chairs are appointed by the SIA president-elect. So it isn't just who volunteers, you actually have to be selected.
00:37:06
Speaker
Um, and that, how do you, how do you get that edge? We'll demonstrate your competency and your ability to get it done. So, and it is who, you know, because if they, especially the site president, like knows you beforehand and knows the quality of your work, it just makes it so much easier.
00:37:23
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And that's when I started to really looking at like, who's the next Saya president-elect? That's very important, because those were the ones making a lot of those important decisions. Very, very much so. And we've had, at least in actually recent memory, we've had Georgia Chao, MOM, as Asian Saya presidents. So that top spot.
00:37:53
Speaker
can be filled by some renovation descent. It's happened before, it will happen again. How do you feel like this leadership or in this conference this past year, like how does that leadership, like how do you feel like working in that leadership team? Like is that something that you feel like
00:38:26
Speaker
Because most of the people are volunteers. So this is on time.
Commitment to Leadership and Self-Reflection
00:38:32
Speaker
Yeah. The time commitment is a lot. Because like I said, I have a day job. I've had a secondary job. And then the amount of time that goes into actually planning the big conference every year is a lot. I've done that. I've done the calculation is hundreds of hours on top of everything else that you're doing. And we're a nonprofit.
00:38:46
Speaker
I'm probably more trying to speak to the dynamics itself.
00:38:56
Speaker
So, for profit versus non-profit organizations, very different dynamics. Especially a non-profit, it is very mission driven, it is meaningful. You do it because you love the work and you think it's important, especially you're not gonna make money off of it. Especially we're volunteers, we're not making money off of it. It's a passion for us, the advancement of IO and,
00:39:22
Speaker
from a very broad perspective, but then we have our own different things that we want to do within the field. It was an incredibly valuable experience working with different levels of leadership, so both the executive board, committee members, and the volunteers, the SIOP staff. Just navigating all those different spaces,
00:39:47
Speaker
And then the membership. So the program chair is the only one with their own email address. And I had a secondary, I was the one answering that email over the course of my tenure as program chair. So it would come in and I'd answer that email among all the other email addresses. Oh my gosh.
00:40:10
Speaker
So you're doing a lot of different types of work and it was quite an exhausting and tiring but valuable developmental experience for me. What advice would you give to younger folks who are just starting out in IO?
00:40:35
Speaker
looking to make their work. Where would you start? Because you've done everything. You can't have them all day. Let's go yourself. If you don't know yourself, you don't know what you're potentially capable of or what you're learning. Really ask yourself the hard questions. You don't necessarily have to share it with other people, but you must be honest with yourself. If you're not honest with yourself, you may be your own worst enemy.
00:41:02
Speaker
And at which point, what can you do? It's not them, it's you. So really take the time. And I think it's really important that you take regular time to sit and reflect on what you want, where you've been, and where you want to go. So again, that speaks to knowing yourself.
00:41:27
Speaker
It's so easy to get caught up in. It happened to me, you know, you get busy and suddenly you're not taking care of yourself and you're very narrow. You got the blinders on. You can only see the small picture and you kind of lose sight of what you actually want to do. Is this contributing to your larger, longer term goals? Maybe it isn't and maybe it's time to cut your losses. Is it? Think.
00:41:58
Speaker
Think about it with an open mind. Are there any potential valuable experiences you're getting out of this or is it really just a time sink and you should just, it's not providing any value to you or really minimal value for the effort that you're putting in. Ultimately, every experience should be incremental. Incrementally help you be a better person, a better IO.
00:42:29
Speaker
go into every experience thinking, what am I looking at? What can this provide me? I think you can find value in almost every experience. There are a few, but I think in just about any, even the ones that are hard and tough, it can help build your resilience. It can help you navigate, it can help you to figure out what you don't want versus what you want or see,
00:42:55
Speaker
behavioral traps from other people that don't do that. Or help highlight other I've done it. I've warned people I said this is a trap. Don't do it. I can see it. So coaching them as well. Just pay attention. Think deeply.
00:43:13
Speaker
about the experience, about that opportunity, what can you get out of it? What do you want to get out of it? And then pause, take time at regular intervals to just reevaluate things. Ironic that we brought in an IO psychologist and she spoke about incremental validity of people's experiences. I think there's advice that can apply to not just people starting out in IO, but people who
00:43:38
Speaker
Oh, no, no, this is like a nice advice. This is absolutely like advice. If you want to do IO, and I think with IO specifically, because the field is so broad, feel free to experiment. And again, this is general advice that can be applied to an IO lance. You can feel free to change your mind. Do not feel trapped. You ultimately are not trapped if you go into one sub-discipline with an IO and then move to another.
00:44:08
Speaker
It may take a little bit more to get up to speed if you want to move to a different area, but nothing's really stopping you. You're the only one stopping yourself, ultimately. You may want to transition.
00:44:24
Speaker
completely pivot 180, or it can do a slow transition from one to another. There are a variety of ways you can tackle it. It's whatever fits your context and your lifestyle at that moment. That's great advice. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us and share your insights with our listeners. I know we're close to time, so how do we want to close? Do we want to close with a chat GPT? Do we have a high two? We don't have a high two for this one. Okay, that's okay.
00:44:53
Speaker
So Vivian, we usually do a chat GPT-generated Haiku to end the session if we were just three of us. Isn't it a Haiku 5.75, right? It's 5.75? OK. Oh, she's going to be like, oh, Mensa, Mensa is going to be like, oh, this is my consulting. You're like, think on your feet. Think on your feet. Oh.
00:45:14
Speaker
I know, yeah, I can actually, hold on. I think if you give me like a minute, it's a Friday after, it's a Friday evening actually. So it is, my brain is.
00:45:28
Speaker
And while we were thinking about it, I also generated, asked Chad GPT to generate the haiku. Let's compare the two. I think Vivian is going to be better. Human generated. Always, always. You know what? All right. This is what I have. Can you read it for us, Vivian? Make your life fully. Embrace who you are, my friend. Keep at it. Stay angry. Yeah. We will do the mission one.
00:45:55
Speaker
Vivienne Wu stands. Be angry, be prepared, grow. Resilience blooms. You know what? ChatGPT uses resilience blooms all the time, so I'm going to put my vote to Vivienne's... See, it's not live. Human-generated content. That's probably also because I prompt it, so...
00:46:17
Speaker
Vivian, thank you for joining us. You are a trailblazer who has cleared the land, tilled it, laid the foundation, poured the cement, let it dry, and came back and have brought other folks with you. And to hear the experiences that you have endured, it just makes me helpful and I guess I gotta stay angry and stay prepared. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been an amazing conversation.
00:46:58
Speaker
you