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Real Talk with Leaders in the Field: Shradha
57 Plays6 months ago
Shradha, an organizational design expert and leader, joins us in our virtual studio to chat about everything from executive coaching to the immigrant experience and what it was like for her to transition from working at a large international company in India to doing organizational design work for another global firm in the US.
Link to Shradha's podcast: Unpacking Organizations: The Practitioner's Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Sharada and Her Roles
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome listeners to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. This week we have another special guest. Jenny, who is our special guest today?
00:00:16
Speaker
That's a great question, Duc. But before we dive into our podcast and introduce our guest speaker, I just wanted to note that Echo is not with us today because she had to take care of something at work. And so in our virtual studio today, it'll just be me, Duc, and our special guest. And Echo will be joining the team on our next episode.
00:00:37
Speaker
So I'm very excited to be introducing our guest today. Sharada is a dear friend from way back. Sharada is a passionate organization and talent leader with deep expertise in organizational design. Most recently, she was the VP of talent management at Prudential. She's also a seasoned executive coach who has coached leaders to unlock their potential. She's an active speaker on the conference circuit and also has her own podcast
00:01:06
Speaker
that she co-hosts with Rupert to unpack organization and talent related topics. So welcome to the podcast, Radha. Thank you, Jenny, and thank you, Duke.
00:01:20
Speaker
Very, very excited to be here. Thank you for having me. So anything else you would like to embellish or add or anything else that might be helpful for our chat today? No, you covered it all. I mean, that's the tip of the iceberg and we can unpack the rest of the iceberg now. But I would just have shameless plug is that the podcast that I do is called unpacking organizations. And yes, Rupert and I co-hosted. So that's about it. And I am
00:01:49
Speaker
very passionate about the talent and organization topic. So whenever you ask me questions, I cannot stop speaking. So let's go for
Sharada's Career Journey from India to the US
00:01:59
Speaker
it. Well, how about we start with a little bit of your background and what you've been doing in the field? How about that? Sure. So I started my career back in India. I am a computer science engineer by education.
00:02:12
Speaker
And then I didn't want to be a computer science software writer for the rest of my life. So I moved into management and then got excited into HR profession. So majored in HR, started my career with a big conglomerate and started gravitating towards org effectiveness side of HR. But then I was very lucky to land in a good place at a good time.
00:02:39
Speaker
where one of the organizations that I was working with was going through a very large scale org transformation. And I was a part of a very mighty and small PMO and that started the love of org design and job architecture and work design, all of that. And so it was a multi-year project where I really saw the nitty-gritty of how this work was done. And not just that, but how the HR processes then get realigned
00:03:09
Speaker
to make sure that the whole organization is working well together. So very systems approach of doing organization design and job architecture design.
00:03:19
Speaker
And that just unlocked the love for this topic. So I moved to the US, excuse me, did my master's here, and then started my journey as management consulting in BCG Boston Consulting Group, and then moved into internal consulting in Prudential. And in my most recent experience at Prudential, I joined them as a leader for organization design and future of work when they were setting up their transformation practice.
00:03:47
Speaker
but then moved to leading the talent for US and international businesses. And as part of that, I think that role gave me a really unlock of why we need to have really strong organization system, but talent is how it manifests into the organization. Like how do you, what is a talent experience that people have? And that really helped me understand that while I can create a very good organizational system,
00:04:16
Speaker
it should also be a great experience for our talent. So that's where another unlock, I would say, would happen. And a big part of my role at Prudential was to be an executive coach to senior leaders. And that was another extremely empowering and rewarding work that I did as a part of my career. So here I am and continuing to work in the space of talent and org.
00:04:46
Speaker
Oh, wow. Wow. So much to unpack. Where should we start, Doug? Wow. So BCG, Prudential, and then there as an executive coach as well, too. I know I'm going to go out of order here. How has your training at TC influenced your work experience at BCG and Prudential? Sure. I think my experience at TC was
00:05:12
Speaker
extremely important for me to get a foothold and foundation in United States workplace, because before that I was working only in India. And I didn't know what exactly should I be expecting? What are the nuances of workplace?
00:05:30
Speaker
So I think having that grounding in a grad school from that perspective was very profound for me to be able to understand there are so many cultural differences and diversity. But also I think TC provides a very good grounding in social and organizational psychology.
00:05:53
Speaker
And back in India, I had done masters in human resources. But this created a more of a psychological, organizational angle to it, which was again, very different angle that I had not seen, like, you know, more of behavioral economics, be organizational behavior, things like that. So I think that created a sense of curiosity in me, that how do people actually behave?
00:06:20
Speaker
And I think we were told about that we should get it tattooed on our arms, which was like, you know, behavior is the function of personality and environment. And I think that was an unlock, again, that happened at TC, where whatever I was doing at my past life was more about how do you create a sustainable organization?
00:06:42
Speaker
But then how do people behave in that organization is equally important. And therefore those kinds of connections really helped me have a more stronger foundation to start my career.
00:06:56
Speaker
your work experience in India versus your work experience in the US. After going through a program, like our own psych program, could you talk about how that affected your... I'm sorry, I'm blanking out a little bit. I feel like we had such a
00:07:16
Speaker
like a good like start with the microaggression thing when we were talking about then I really wanted to hear your perspective on your like before you heard about microaggression versus like after your exposure to microaggression.
00:07:30
Speaker
I guess we could just ask Shraddha where she wants to start. Where is the energy at? Got it.
Immigrant Challenges in the US
00:07:35
Speaker
I would say that the difference in the professional working environment, I was fortunate that I was working for an organization that was way more professional back in India and had a bigger setup
00:07:49
Speaker
in the US. So Infosys has a very large setup in the US. So I didn't feel that I didn't know anything about the US, right? I knew a lot about it coming here as in the workplace. What I didn't know was there are so many nuances to it. Like in India, there is nothing like race.
00:08:12
Speaker
There is diversity of religion, there is diversity of region, but there's nothing like race. We all are same race. So for me, like, you know, sitting there in India, everything was American. I didn't differentiate in my head that, you know, or maybe I was too naive, but I didn't differentiate so much that there is, yes, there is Caucasians and there are like, you know,
00:08:40
Speaker
Asians and then there are black Americans. But in my mind, it was like it's all American. But when I came here, those differences starting to show up for me.
00:08:55
Speaker
And being in New York City, it's such a melting pot that it didn't show up that much. And then coming to, say, a very, very professional workplaces like Boston Consulting Group or Prudential, it didn't show up for me specifically. But what started to happen is that there is so much of focus on having the equity and equality at the workplace.
00:09:22
Speaker
that those discussions started to really make me educate myself that what exactly is going on here. So for me, it was like, I didn't experience it when I was growing up. I didn't experience this as much.
00:09:36
Speaker
when I was as a part of the workplace. But now I realize that there is a lot of shared experience within my peers and those nuances starting to become a part of my day-to-day interaction and stories. And I got more nuanced or
00:09:53
Speaker
I would say I was more attuned and started paying more attention to it as a part of the social interactions that I started to become part of. So for me, I think it was a very interesting learning journey as an adult, growing up in a different place, which now has suddenly become minority in a different country, right? Like I wasn't a minority when I was growing up, but now I am.
00:10:22
Speaker
And just having those kind of nuances play out in my work life, my personal life, that itself was interesting.
00:10:31
Speaker
And I think I still would say that I carry the biggest identity that I carry today in the US is of being an immigrant, not an Indian woman, not an Asian woman, not even a woman so much as I feel that I'm an immigrant here and I'm a first generation immigrant here. That is the biggest identity I carry, which may be very different from what others experience.
00:11:11
Speaker
That's so interesting. Could you talk more about that? So what about your immigrant experience you think shapes the way you approach work? Yeah, I mean, first of all, being an Indian immigrant coming here without a secured visa itself is a very big thing, right? Like, you know, you have to work through getting your job visa and then finding your way to
00:11:37
Speaker
continue to renew it and get a permanent residency after that or whatever path you take. I think just having that stability and security.
00:11:48
Speaker
was a big deal for me. And I didn't have it for a really long time. And I don't think that gets talked about a lot, because very few, very few people experience that, like, not very few people experience that from but as a percentage wise of people who get here, or go to the business schools or the grad schools.
00:12:09
Speaker
It's a smaller percentage. And so for a very long period of my time, while I was so well-established in a country that I grew up in, I came to this country and it was an existential crisis, right? Like, you know, I don't know if I lose my job, I have to pack my bags and go back to India, right? So those kinds of things I felt was more important to me at that time to get that security
00:12:37
Speaker
to get establishment in a country that I'm immigrated to. And I think that creates more bonding for me rather than saying that, okay, there is another Indian
00:12:50
Speaker
I found, but that person is a second generation or third generation Indian immigrant. And we have a very different connection in that sense, right? We don't connect so quickly because the path that we have traversed is very different. So I hope that answers what you were asking. On that real quick, could you talk a little bit more about the pressure with the visa? Because like for some of the listeners, like some of us are maybe like
00:13:20
Speaker
We've been talking about what Asian and Asian Americans, right? Those who came here.
00:13:26
Speaker
For me, I'm a first generation immigrant as well, too. But for me, my family came over here and we were permanent aliens because of what happened in the Vietnam War. And I had a brother and a sister that's half American. So when we came over in the late 80s, we had a green card. So for us, the pressure was trying to fit in. So my thought with your story was like,
00:13:57
Speaker
Could you talk a little bit more about the V suppression, what that's like while you're going to school, maybe getting started with your first job? And my other thing I wanted to ask was, for a lot of us, we can use immigrant. When you were talking, I was wondering, do we ever use expat?
00:14:17
Speaker
Americans like when they go elsewhere and work, they're expats, they're not immigrants. Oh, expat is only for white people. It's not for us. Expat is also when you're working as like a job, right? And you are going to come back like you're going there as a
00:14:37
Speaker
because you're doing a job, you're not settling down there. That's what the difference that I have in my head. Like if I was being transferred by Infosys here and I had an assignment and I was ready to go back, then I would be in expat from India. But here I was leaving a job and starting my career fresh because my husband and I chose to
00:15:02
Speaker
go to business school or to grad programs here. And so to your first question.
00:15:09
Speaker
It's a lot. And I think it's a lot of pressure of being in a constant challenge of visas. So you first get an F1 visa, which gives you the school permit. Then you get an OPT, which gives you a permit to stay on beyond. Like, you know, it could be one year or three year, depending upon the course that you do. And then you have to get into H1.
00:15:37
Speaker
which has a lottery. So even after all of this, it might be that your name didn't get picked up in a lottery and then you have to go back. And so for everything, it is like you have to survive and then you have to fit in. And the added challenge for us, and I don't know why my husband and I did this, but we already were parents when we came here. So we had like a one-year-old kid who was also with us. So we had to ensure that we are
00:16:06
Speaker
you know, parenting them as non-Indians, but somebody like, you know, who is able to, we are not just fitting in as individuals, but we are fitting in as parents. And so it was just a lot of things that were going on in our minds at the same time. So I think we would just be in the first and two levels of Maslow's hierarchy all the time.
00:16:29
Speaker
and not being able to go up to more levels. But I think God has been kind and we have been able to find our own footings and now it has worked out for us. But there have been horror stories of a lot of our friends when things didn't work out or they're still in that process of making things work out, which is difficult because if you don't have that sense of security, it's very difficult to take risks in life.
00:16:59
Speaker
And I feel in order to be successful, we all have to take some kind of risks. And so because we don't have that kind of foundational security, our risk appetite goes down a bit. And that also makes us less successful overall.
00:17:35
Speaker
I think that's something that a lot of our listeners are going to be able to relate to because our podcast is not just for Asian Americans. It's also for Asian professionals. So that includes folks who come over either for school or for work. They grew up somewhere else being a majority and then they come here and then suddenly they become a minority or immigrant. So I'm grateful that you brought that perspective up because I didn't even think about that.
00:17:58
Speaker
So do we want to pivot and talk a little bit about the work that you've done previously and some of the like the coaching work? And I think one of the reasons that we wanted to bring you on was, and I'm sure you've noticed this, is like there aren't that many executive coaches who are Asian. There aren't that many people who like coaches who are Asian.
00:18:21
Speaker
And that's one of the reasons why we sort of got on this topic. And when I found out that you are an executive coach and you coach people, I thought it would be interesting to have this conversation around like just coaching in general. Sure. What are some like topics that you've coached leaders on just in general? Sure. So I was, I would say it was.
Themes in Executive Coaching
00:18:41
Speaker
it was really good that coaching was part of my job. So it wasn't something that I started like, you know, a coaching business or coaching practice, but as a talent leader, it was inbuilt in my job that I have to coach leaders. So I think that gave me a really good head start that I don't have to create a contract from that perspective, right? Like, you know, I didn't have to create a brand name or a name,
00:19:08
Speaker
I already was at a certain title doing that as a part of my job. So I want to get that out of my way. The things that I've coached most of the leaders upon is I think
00:19:21
Speaker
most of the time the coaching in the organization setting also starts from mid to senior level managers. And what I see as a pattern, whether it is like, you know, whatever diversity and whatever kind of background they have all face a very similar challenge. And that challenge is that how do we navigate this organizational complexity? Because the organizations are becoming way too complex or
00:19:50
Speaker
whole macroeconomic system is becoming way too complex and our careers are no longer linear.
00:19:58
Speaker
So it's no longer that you become a manager, then you become a senior manager, director and a VP in the same function that you're part of. You keep going and hopping for right reasons, right here to there. And therefore, it is a lot of onus on the professionals to say that my career is in my own hands.
00:20:21
Speaker
But that's also very daunting, that, oh my gosh, if I made one bad move or one wrong move, am I doomed? Or am I pigeonholed? And so there is a lot of onus now on the professionals. Gone are the days where GE or PNGs of the world will have a whole career lattice laid out for people that you have to spend three years in.
00:20:45
Speaker
this brand and then two years in sales and five years in international, then you can come back and do all of this. Those things don't work anymore because organizations are so complex and they change and it's dynamic. And so a lot of onus is on the professionals on how do they actually activate their ambitions and aspirations and how do they
00:21:09
Speaker
navigate the entire organization, make connections, have the right discussions, and therefore move their career forward. So that, I think, is the most important discussion that happens at that level, is that what do I do next? And many times people have grown up in their, say, functional hierarchy and now want to pivot.
00:21:29
Speaker
do something else, like they've grown in marketing and want to do digital, or they have grown in actuarial and want to do operations. And how do they make those kind of pivots? It's like very much like a midlife crisis, but all of us face go through it, right? Like all of us say that all of us face that midlife in a very different phase of our life.
00:21:51
Speaker
So that's one big chunk that I see a lot of us facing. The other thing which I would say is conflict. Because again, there are so many ways that conflicts and tensions arise in the organization. And how do we go about
00:22:13
Speaker
making that work for our own self. And I say that tensions and conflicts are really healthy and important. We cannot, they help us grow. They help us know, get more information about ourselves as well as more information about others. Like I don't think I would have a better, I have a really strong relationship with my husband, but that has happened because we have had a lot of conflicts.
00:22:36
Speaker
healthy conflicts, but a lot of them. And so I think it's extremely important, but how do we deal with it and how do we address it? How do we
00:22:46
Speaker
manage it without getting stressed out. That is extremely important. So I would say these are some of the things that regardless of any background come up in all the coaching conversations. Wow. So conflict and navigating the organization. And so now we can do a double click. Like what, what are some, have you seen any specific themes pop up for, you know, different groups that you coach?
00:23:12
Speaker
I would say not exactly, not really. But I would say it's not about, I don't know if I can correlate to ethnicities or that terms of diversity.
00:23:23
Speaker
but I can correlate it to some kind of upbringing and backgrounds. And I would say that what I see is, including myself, like most of the, like, you know, Eastern upbringing is that you do your work, keep your head down, have a really strong work ethics. You really don't have to sell yourself or advertise yourself. People will take notice of your good work and will take care of you.
00:23:48
Speaker
Right. That is mostly what I at least growing up back in India was being told. Right. And I think that's a set of upbringing that people are brought up with. And when you bring that upbringing in corporate American workplace, I don't think it works out every time.
00:24:08
Speaker
because it's a different kind of setup where you have to network and showcase yourself in a right way, not in a braggy way. But that's around it. Not everybody can take notice of you if you are not taking notice of yourself. So that's when people struggle. Am I just too brash? Am I just too much on the face? Am I showing myself off? Because that's not the value system that I grew up with.
00:24:37
Speaker
So I think that shows up many times, but regardless, it shows up a lot for women, because many times what I've also seen is, and it could be controversial as I'm speaking, is that there is a lot of phases in women's life, in a typical women's life that they go through. There is a family childbearing phase,
00:25:02
Speaker
that everybody acknowledges and is supportive of and all of that. But then there is also a very long phase of perimenopausal, menopausal and things like that where your hormones are really taking over your life.
00:25:16
Speaker
We don't talk about that at all in our workplace. And I think women go through a lot and they really don't talk about it at all that sometimes they could be struggling. And so I feel that
00:25:33
Speaker
there is a lot underneath a coaching that keeps happening beyond just the professional life that happens in people's life. And a true coach is who can make those connections without being judgmental and without being intrusive in their life. And so I feel that I try to create a container where at least I can give that kind of
00:26:02
Speaker
that kind of comfort and trust to my counterparts, that if they want to bring something of that nature into it, they can. But that's where I see that when we create that container and when it's helpful, women do bring that in. So these are some of the things which I would say it's regardless of the ethnicity, but more about backgrounds and gender that come up more in my coaching.
00:26:30
Speaker
And what would you say? So would you say that it's true, like regardless of whether you're coaching an Asian American versus like an Asian immigrants that they're all.
00:26:39
Speaker
they all have that sort of mentality. Like don't ask, just put your head down. Could be. I need to do more research and go through my coaches and come up with a more validated statistics around it, but could be. And that's what I would say that I would refrain from saying that only immigrant Asians feel this way, but not the
00:27:05
Speaker
American nations don't feel it this way. I think it's more about upbringing and your value system and what you were exposed to when you were growing up in a child. What your parents felt like, you know, what was your parents value system? What was your personality? So there's so much that goes into it that it will be difficult for me to stereotype it. Because that's interesting because we spend a lot of time on the podcast talking about like, is it the person or is it the environment or is it both?
00:27:33
Speaker
And I mean, I think there is something there that, you know, Asians tend to be like on average less assertive than like their white counterparts. But I also think that there is also expectations around like how people perceive you. So, you know, one thing that sort of came up was, um, I remember being part of like several meetings and I would speak up, I would ask questions, I would always talk and I considered myself like a talker.
00:28:01
Speaker
And then several times, like one of my colleagues would come up to me and be like, Jenny, I want to hear more from you. And I'm thinking like, what the hell? Like I was like.
00:28:10
Speaker
allowed in that meeting and it happened multiple times. And it almost made me feel like, does she not see me? Why is she always asking me to do more, speak up more? But I'm like, I'm talking a lot in those meetings. And at one point I was facilitating the meeting. So I'm like, is she just brain damaged? So I don't know. Like that's something that has happened to me. And I've spoken to other Asians who have felt that way.
00:28:32
Speaker
That's a great point, Jenny. I would say that has happened less with me, but there is a corollary that has happened with me is that or with not just with me, but has been brought up while I'm coaching senior executives is that there is an expectation to carry that stereotype. So if you're Asian and if you're too loud, then also people take too notice of you because then they're like, you are not fitting in my stereotype. Right. And so.
00:29:02
Speaker
there is a balance there. So if you are like people of color, and your stereotype is to be in a certain way, and you are not fitting in that stereotype, then also you just get too noticed or, you know, throw people off balance in that sense. So again, there's too many dynamics that go on there. So I'm not surprised that you experienced that. I was just thinking about like, you know, how we're talking about stereotypes and
00:29:32
Speaker
how some of these things are kind of systemic and how Strada coaches folks and in a way helps them guide them through at the individual level. So when you know these problems are systemic, right, that women are going through like certain phases of, you know, like you mentioned, childbearing and
00:29:51
Speaker
uh, menopause and there are these prejudices at the systemic level when they come to you as an individual, how do you, how do you approach that with that systems thinking approach?
Systems Thinking in Leadership
00:30:02
Speaker
Yeah, great question. So I would say, um, the way I started to create my coaching philosophy was that, um, I want to bring leaders to say that they're not alone in this, right? They're the leader of their own ecosystem.
00:30:21
Speaker
And they have the agency and the empowerment to influence that ecosystem. So it's not just about, we sometimes over index that you are the leader, you are here to solve it. But no, you are here a leader of the ecosystem. And how do you influence your ecosystem so that it can solve it for you?
00:30:43
Speaker
So I always bring that together that there is an organization and then you are the leader of the organization. So there is a whole system and then there is a whole person. And even when you are a person, you are not just a person which is showing your
00:31:00
Speaker
professional facade you're also bringing a lot of your personal aspirations and motivations into it and therefore how can you be more authentic into it and you don't have to really show it off to everybody but at least be aware of it as you're working towards your own challenges and towards your own situations. So I always
00:31:22
Speaker
help create that container where person at least is authentic to their own self and understand that what is the situation that they are in and then understand that first you have that kind of identification or awareness and then understand that what is in your control and what is beyond your control. Like there are few things which are totally beyond your control. You cannot go and change an organizational policy or
00:31:51
Speaker
like you know a structure if you are still a junior leader or you cannot change the nature or behaviors of your leaders but then that you know now that this is what you cannot change and that is influencing your ecosystem.
00:32:06
Speaker
Let's understand what else is there on your ecosystem and what can you change? Can you change your team members? Can you change your own behavior or own reactions to things? Or if nothing is working out and you are really, really upset about how things are going, can you change this ecosystem altogether? Can you get yourself out of it?
00:32:24
Speaker
So all these things, I think I try to first give them a sense that understand your whole system, understand your whole self, because sometimes self-awareness is also not there for all of us. And once you understand that, understand what is in control, what is not, and how do you want to react to that then? I feel like I just went through a coaching session with you.
00:32:49
Speaker
She's gonna have to charge for that. Whoa, what? Oh no! You guys.
00:33:01
Speaker
So I know we're closing in on time, but I wanted to follow up on what you said about the pre and post working in the US workforce and how your perceptions or ability to detect microaggressions changed. Could you talk a little bit more about that? Like what has changed now that you've had 10 plus years of working in corporate America? I would say that, again, I feel myself extremely fortunate to have worked for really good organizations.
00:33:31
Speaker
amazing, most amazing managers, like even today I have connections with all of them. So I wasn't on the receiving end of it at all. But what I have seen is that I have created way more empathy for what goes on around me. And I would say that first I would just, you know,
00:33:56
Speaker
dismiss it that it will never, it doesn't happen with me. So therefore it doesn't happen with anybody. Right. But now I am, I feel that I'm starting to learn more empathy around that, that it happens, it happens. And I am a more open listener to that than what actually caused it. And I'm also more, I would say, attuned to see it.
00:34:25
Speaker
that fit is happening because many times you just shut it down. You're like a fish in the water. You don't experience the water. And so I now am able to, I would say I'm training myself. I don't see I'm an expert yet, but I train myself to say that, okay, something happened. Like I can pick those cues in the meeting, the body language and all that, whether it's for me or for others.
00:34:50
Speaker
And I am teaching myself to have the courage to say that that's not right. And highlighting that. Because otherwise, it's a journey. First, you have to understand it. Then you have to identify it. You can understand it, but if you're not identifying it, you feel that one day it will happen, but it's happening all around you. So you identify that.
00:35:18
Speaker
but then you also have to be a courage to not be a bystander. And I'm continuing to develop that courage to say that I'm not going to just keep quiet and do something about it. Do you have an example? So I would say that identification is a journey. Like, you know, I know that there are meetings in which I can see people cutting off
00:35:43
Speaker
or people saying that, you know, taking away an idea and saying it back, the most common examples, right? Common examples. And then people are saying, what a great idea to that person. And so being able to have the courage to say that, well, it came from somewhere else, right? And being able to say that somebody else already quoted it. So I'm glad that you are able to acknowledge it. Like as simple as that.
00:36:13
Speaker
Or if we are saying that that person isn't, isn't that great, right? Like, or we are giving a performance feedback. Can we have more concrete examples around a performance feedback rather than just saying that you are, you were late or you have not been able to.
00:36:32
Speaker
show up more often. And I'm not saying it for Asian or people of color, but even for women, if they are working from home more often because they are a caregiver of any kind.
00:36:49
Speaker
are we dinging them just because they are not in the room or in person? And I think that is going to happen a lot with the return to work because people who are remote are going to get a little bit unseen as compared to people who will be in office more. So as we do performance management cycles,
00:37:14
Speaker
Can we be more objective about what we are seeing in the work rather than what we are seeing as a presence and people? So those are the things I would say are the microaggressions sometimes, if we can call it that. But do we have the courage to call it out and say that do we have concrete examples about it or are we saying it because of our gut feeling? Those are great examples. And I would say that if you don't have actual examples to back them up and you're penalizing a woman for staying home or working remotely, that's absolutely a gender microaggression.
00:37:43
Speaker
I love her quote on the fish in water sometimes doesn't feel the water. So I wrote that down because like it's invisible, right? Sometimes and we're literally swimming through it and we don't know we're going through it, but it's all around us. So I love the perspective that you gave that sometimes you kind of slow down and pull back and see what it is that's around us. Yeah.
00:38:06
Speaker
We get desensitized around it. And so I try to read books around it. I try to educate myself. And I don't think I'm there yet, but it's a learning curve. And I'm starting to at least educate myself more on these topics.
00:38:25
Speaker
When you say you're not there yet, there's a bit of me that sense like, like you've started, when would you say like you've gotten there? I don't know. I think if I'll be there, if I am able to
00:38:40
Speaker
stop a microaggression perhaps before it is happening? I don't know. I feel that it's such a vast and deep topic. I cannot call myself an expert in it at all. So I think I'll be a lifelong learner on this topic.
00:39:00
Speaker
I love that. The fact that you're even calling it out as a leader. I think we need more leaders who are able to spot it. And that's not even calling it a microaggression. It's just like, hey, that was so-and-so's idea and just calling that out. Well, that brings us to our last question, which is what would make your life easier kind of navigating the space?
Impact of Data in Talent Assessment
00:39:20
Speaker
So anything related to what we talked about?
00:39:23
Speaker
I thought about it because you had shared that question with me before Jenny cheating, but I could not get with a really good answer. So here is my answer. I think what we really, this whole space of talent and coaching and assessments around talent, I'm just using that as an example.
00:39:51
Speaker
is extremely deep and profound and very important for organizations but we really don't have good solid objective data to track it. And many a times when we talk about these things like even when potential of the people that we talk about or we talk about say performance and
00:40:14
Speaker
over the time performance, we really don't have a very solid analytical data to back it up, right? Like performance management is still okay because we give rating, there has to be certain percentages attached to it and blah, blah, blah. But is it a very solid way in which the objectives league goal setting has happened and then objectively the ratings have happened? Not really, right?
00:40:44
Speaker
And therefore the same goes with the potential of the people when we put them in the nine box. Are we doing that objectively? So I feel that while there is so much, so much of importance around talent, we really don't have good data to back it up. And I'm not saying that AI should come in and
00:41:03
Speaker
make our lives better because there is a lot of biases and more so in this space when we start to use AI. So what will make my life better, I'm only telling challenges, is that if we find a way to have better objectification or to create more objective data around these, I think that would help me and that would help us take better decisions.
00:41:29
Speaker
because a lot of time these decisions are taken on a point in time and forgotten. So if we make a decision about talent today, we just forget about it and don't make, don't use that decision in making a decision about them six months down the road. So by what I mean is that if we moved to talent to give them a really stretch assignment,
00:41:54
Speaker
for their next job. And we give them that stretch assignment today for the next six months. And it was a real stretch assignment for them. And the environment was not helpful. And the leaders were not helpful. And they failed miserably. We just dinged them. We forget about that, that it was a stretch assignment. And we have to be kind to them. And we have to bring them back and give them something else. Organization forgets about it too.
00:42:21
Speaker
That's just one very, very specific example. But if we had a better process and data around all of this, we would make better decisions around talent. And hopefully one day we'll get there. That's very good advice. And that's coming from an org design specialist, an expert. We need more data, more objective data, more consistent data. And that's going to help reduce bias and make our lives easier.
00:42:47
Speaker
All right. Well, thank you so much for that. I realize we don't have our chat GPT haiku, but well, maybe we'll just add that. But thank you so much for joining us on our podcast. It was a pleasure talking to you and hopefully we can have you back in future episodes because I feel like there's so much more to discuss. Thank you so much. And we will catch you later on another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight, your podcast for all things Asian in the workplace. Thank you so much both of you. It was my honor. Thank you for having me.
00:43:16
Speaker
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