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SIOP 2025 Recap & Insights
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In this episode, we bring Jenny and our audience up to speed on Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology 2025. Eccho and Duoc share the insights they gained from this year's conference. Together, we discuss the prevalence of AI, the impact of current executive orders and how it impacts the work on DEI research, and talks on the perceptions of East vs. South Asians in the workplace.
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and PSYOP Conference
00:00:09
Speaker
Hi, listeners. Welcome to another episode of Hidden in Plain Signed, All Things Asian in the Workplace. I'm your host, Echo. I'm Duke. and I'm Jenny.
00:00:21
Speaker
In today's episode, we, or actually, Duck and Echo are gonna unpack a recent conference that they attended, PSYOP, which is a conference for organizational psychologists.
00:00:34
Speaker
I wasn't able to attend, so I'm just gonna ask some questions about what they thought about the conference. And, you know, maybe before we start, it might be helpful if we provide a refresher on what PSYOP stands for, what it's about,
00:00:49
Speaker
Sure. So PSYOP stands for the Society for Industrial Organizational Psychology. of Of course, we have um psychologists, masters students and not master students people with master's degrees, PhDs.
00:01:02
Speaker
ah We have lawyers that I think come there as well, too. So you have academics and practitioners. So a high rate of folks coming together to talk about the work that they're doing, things that happening in the workplace, and how they're probably implementing maybe some ah change or whatnot to make the organization better.
00:01:22
Speaker
yeah i think Yeah, I think we also had a similar episode last year where three of us actually talked about some of the scenes that we learned about the SAP conference. So for listeners who have been listening to this for a while, this is another year of that conference.
Key Themes and Buzzwords at PSYOP
00:01:39
Speaker
So I guess we could start off with, you know, what were some of the topics that stood out for each of you? i'm curious to know, like, what was the the word on the street this year? I can get us started. Before I even get started, um i own also let our listeners know if you haven't been to sign up before. It's a conference with jam-packed topics.
00:02:01
Speaker
yeah You can find probably hundreds of thousands topics among each sessions. And there are so many sessions that are running concurrently. Could you give us some examples, Echo? go Yeah. So for example, you will see the topics on succession planning, talent management, learning development, executive development.
00:02:21
Speaker
And you also will encounter topics like DEI topics and how people are assessing their employees. ah So a lot of those topics, ah the reason why I mentioned this is What I find out stood it out for me this year, probably also because that's where like my own interest sits.
00:02:41
Speaker
That doesn't mean it's the only themes or the only topics that CyUp talked about. But even ah among all those hundreds and a few thousands of the topics, there are definitely two themes that have stood out for me very saliently. The first one is how provenant AI or GNI has been mentioned in almost every session. It's almost, at the i felt like last year, people started to picking up the term GNI. And there were sessions talking about like how you'll be able to use some of the techniques and trying to facilitate all those practice that we do as I.O.
00:03:23
Speaker
But this year was definitely at a different level. ah almost ah especially for the practitioner sessions that I've been to, if you don't mention the word GAI, people were like, are you talking about? Are you talking about things that 20 years ago, that kind of feeling?
00:03:38
Speaker
So there's definitely a bit of a buzz. And just to clarify, GAI stands for Generative AI, is that right? Correct, correct. So that including like the things that you use on ChatGPT, Copilot, um and I think most recently more of a AI agents.
00:03:55
Speaker
So for me, I thought that was um interesting, but also how much this is a buzzword for everyone. So that's the first thing. The
Legislative Changes and Organizational Impact
00:04:06
Speaker
second theme that I have noticed is There are a lot of conversations, discussions, and the thoughtfulness going to understanding the impact of all those recent legislation changes on every practice.
00:04:25
Speaker
I've been to a couple of sessions that not only SIOP showed up as a leadership in for their members, because we are all like members in the SIOP community. So there has been some very thoughtful dialogue being organized talking about what does this mean for SIOP as a community and what does it mean for me as a SIOP member.
00:04:51
Speaker
But also at the same time, they also invited people to talk about how what does this mean impact of their day-to-day work. Because for sign-up community in general, like most of us work either in academic or in the industry.
00:05:07
Speaker
So be able to speak to some of the very recent changes on those impact ah and the impact on their work. has been quite interesting yeah can I ask you a question so yeah um a lot of the changes that we talked about like what's happening like politically happened in like January February into into April so are you saying that a lot of the sessions were sort of like planned or tweaked to address that because you know PSYOP the the sessions that they got the topics that they got were from last summer because it's it's
00:05:43
Speaker
It lags by one year. So I'm curious, and Doug, I'm seeing your your facial expression change here. Do you think that there was like last minute, hey, we need to talk about this and let's like revamp our planning and our topics.
00:05:58
Speaker
Did that happen? I can't speak to it, but Doug, welcome your thoughts on that as well. My personal observation there is there are definitely sessions that has been adapted to respond to those registration changes, meaning there are sessions being canceled last minute because of the topic they're bringing to the table. And i have seen, and it's like personally, I've seen like a two topics that I have or sessions I have added to my own agenda canceled that is related to DEI topics, for example. Oh, so DEI topics were just canceled.
00:06:39
Speaker
Wow. Some are canceled. However, i i think there's also ah more of a positive tone to that is this is actually probably like the first time I'm also seeing that um being a non-standing member in PSYOP community, this is probably the first time how the PSYOP leadership has been responding very quickly to address some of those changes and what is what does it mean for their members.
00:07:06
Speaker
So I've been to a few sessions. They were apparently just got organized right after the January, February legislation changed because they nearly had external consultants come in and um provide a policy update on all those changes and the SIOP leadership be able to speak to how does those policy updates means the SIOP community as a whole.
00:07:32
Speaker
So I do think there are also more of a positively or proactive approach trying to address that, which got started um which which are added after those changes.
00:07:45
Speaker
Can i just make a um point of clarification? um i think when ECHO alludes to this, ah ECHO is alluding to i think the executive orders. and so And I just want to differentiate that between legislation because legislation is law passing and EOs or executive orders are not law passing. It's assigned by one executive, ah by one branch of the government. Good point. Yeah.
00:08:06
Speaker
yeah And the ah the executive branch has signed into um and these executive orders to ah limit these DEI initiatives or ah make it so that's removed from at least the government federal government, which then has a trickling effect into state government, city ah government, and organizations that have contracts with the federal government.
00:08:31
Speaker
And it is really not surprising to see that SIOP had to pivot and make these changes. But meant like ah Jenny, like you said, it's a lot of these things that were submitted were submitted last year around like, like, was it like October, November, December, or something like that. yeah And then the organization, the site organization had to really had to pivot to make things work. Some, I think my understanding, I didn't go to some of these sessions, but in speaking with other folks,
00:09:02
Speaker
our colleagues, our our so our little our network, my hearing ah is that you know there were sessions that were canceled, there were folks who didn't get funding. So it did undermine some of the efforts and the work that was put in to that was accepted to SIOP. And it didn't make for a more muted conversation on it.
00:09:22
Speaker
which is unfortunate because this is really good research that was done and reviewed by others and approved by the process that we have
DEI Challenges and Political Impact
00:09:31
Speaker
in place with SIOP. And it was undermined by these executive orders that were put into place a few months ago. And and to also um add to that point, doug um they were talking about the laws, they were talking about legislation and stuff. Yeah. So it's not only just EOs, which I highly suggest, yeah, like, yeah, all the members to, that's why I think it was interesting because it's not only just how people react to those EOs, but also um they talk about some of the lawsuits that being brought up um given the recent changes and what does that mean? So I do think
00:10:07
Speaker
um I was asking the session host if they'd be able to post the slides because I don't know if you two remember, we were talking about having a session on interpreting some of those EOs and what does it mean for ah the practice. And they literally did a great job trying to listing like all the EOs, all the lawsuits, all the local level or state level um level responses in those ah interpretations on the same slide, which is super nice how how they organize the session itself.
00:10:41
Speaker
ah So I just wanted to make that clarification. And I know they used the legislation changes in their session title. There's a reason they used it.
00:10:54
Speaker
So these are lawsuits in response to the EO. So because legislation has a very specific meaning. Legislation is law passed by the Senate and the House, which is not what's happening here.
00:11:05
Speaker
So um we should be clear on that, because so far this is all of these things are happening based on EO is not laws passed by Congress. um which make them illegal. Most, a lot of them are illegal and are being challenged in the court. And, know, we're not lawyers, but I i think we've done a lot of reading to know that most of these EOs are just not legal, but it's still having a lot of impact.
00:11:38
Speaker
Shifting the tone here, it's like, what was maybe like your favorite session? Jenny, I appreciate the change of tone. um For me, i I went to only a few sessions. Again, this was an organic thing that kind of happened. I think it was just talking to the folks who were in the know about the thing. So I got a chance to catch up with Echo, ah Vivian Wu, some other folks that I was mentoring to hear what their thoughts were on you know, the things that are happening and their experience.
00:12:08
Speaker
And for me, that was really, that was the best session. These organic sessions that had, that happened at coffee shops. And then as you're sitting there, you run into so some folks are the person that you're with running some other folks, they get invited into these conversations. And we have these little networking, mini networking events.
00:12:27
Speaker
I think I was, I went to Echo's session and then we walked over to Sai Islam, who we had on our podcast. Wow, what a small world. Yeah, we chatted with him. He had a cutout.
00:12:39
Speaker
ah you know we we ah we We made fun of him and his partner in crime. And then he introduced us to another person who could be you know one of the leaders that we potentially want to spotlight as well, too. So for me, that was one of the... I don't know if you remember this. I think this was Felix felix Wu that that was highlighted. And he introduced us to other folks. But I'm like, yeah, this is this is actually... This is really nice. I really...
00:13:05
Speaker
enjoyed being part of this small network of folks. And this was, course, not on the agenda at all. And it happened sporadically. And for me, every time this happens at PSYOP, it is always the thing that just makes the conference for me.
00:13:20
Speaker
I've got a question for you. So since a lot of the folks that you mentioned are Asian, um you Asian American professionals, what's their take on what's happening? You know, since, since our podcast is on the experience of Asian Americans and all things Asian in the workplace, thought I'd ask.
00:13:36
Speaker
Oh, you know, I don't want to misrepresent what they say, so I don't want to ah put words in their mouths, but ah there were, wow. I don't know, there seems, an echo, correct me if i'm wrong, you know on and when the stuff up with the stuff that we were there together for, but there was some kind of some bleakness on outlook on what what things ah were like yeah moving forward. But I think people were still optimistic and still wanting to do the work.
00:14:03
Speaker
to, you know, continue to be good organizational ah industrial organizational psychologists, to, you know, improve the workplace, to help people move forward, to limit those barriers so that, you know, people can just do the work, right? So they're not, you know, experiencing counterproductive behaviors or subtle ah forms of microaggressions, whatever that may be, ah we all really still want to do that work. We just wanted this thing that wasn't in our way now out of our way that makes our our work a little bit harder. Yeah.
00:14:36
Speaker
And I say that because, you know, a lot of these EOs say that a lot of the DEI stuff are discriminatory against white and Asians. And so the trickle down effect is these changes affect us adversely as well.
00:14:53
Speaker
But I'm also seeing the age old narrative of pitting us against other minorities by singling us out and saying, okay, these former DEI actions are bad for white and Asians.
00:15:08
Speaker
So I just wanted to mention that. At least for the conversation I have been engaging, I said, I don't have that same interpretation that you just shared or at least I did not come across that kind of interpretation.
00:15:21
Speaker
Um, the interest of part that you, since we are circling back a little bit on that topic. So one of the biggest takeaway from me, from those sessions, um, there is this one, um, session that I've been to where they invited ah practitioners and academics um from different school and company and they come and talk about what are the recent EO changes and what are the risks some of the recent communication has been shifting the work or not shifting their work and I thought that was very interesting to hear some of the people who are doing like a DEI related research and how they were talking about they are still able to do some of the research
00:16:07
Speaker
in the way that is not, I'm trying to say this in a good way, so it doesn't interpret, gets interpreted like they're doing something, anything's sneaky.
00:16:18
Speaker
However, i do think there's a, there's ah traditionally from like talking about doing the DEI research, but it's really about, it's a leadership research. It's about how you assess people fairly and how you to bring people um and be able to enable everyone to be successful.
00:16:36
Speaker
So I think there is a lot of a code switch that we need to train ou ourselves on as I.O. um
Advocating Fairness in IO Psychology
00:16:43
Speaker
And there's also other ways that you can still do some of the work that you do.
00:16:48
Speaker
But we're not going to cover in this episode itself. But and just for the audience to know that you shouldn't be worried too much. Oh, um the entire research is going away.
00:16:59
Speaker
So where there's a will, there is a way, and there are ways to still continue to track information for different groups, but it's just being rebranded as something slightly different.
00:17:12
Speaker
I do think there is this important and caveat, I also learned this as well, is how we as an IO that we need to continue to advocate for science.
00:17:24
Speaker
We need to continue to advocate for fairness in the workplace. And that is at core of IO that we need to do. Because I think historically that That's why a lot of those research have came to place in the first place is because of those core values that we have uphold as IOs.
00:17:44
Speaker
I think there's and this new message that we need to come in to the broader workplace is this is to enable everyone to so to be successful. So this is not just like enabling a certain group of of people.
00:17:59
Speaker
So like, how can we still carry on some of the good signs but be able to help people focus on the the thing that you need to pay attention to. I think that's ah means to interesting, but also challenging work ah for us as IOs. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:19
Speaker
And I think this is going to be a topic in one of our episodes where we kind of talk about that because think we mentioned this or it got brought up when we had Bei Wen on our podcast, which is DEI gets misinterpreted even by the people who are running DEI efforts. And I think that's part of the reason why we're sort of in this debacle right now, because there's this perception that if you're focusing on elevating one group, then you're going to oppress the other group, the majority group. That's the message that they don't want to hear.
00:18:49
Speaker
But, you know, even like at last year, sc off a panel where Echo and I attended Dook's session, there was a panelist on the panel who basically threw light-skinned Asians under the bus saying that we're basically privileged and don't need to be part of this conversation. when those types of messages are being shared, I think it creates more division. And i don't I know that that was not her intent, but I just feel like there were a lot of...
00:19:19
Speaker
people who don't have the subject matter expertise going out and saying, well, you get to be part of the conversation, but you don't because you're white or you don't get to be part of the conversation because you're not POC enough.
00:19:31
Speaker
yeah There were a lot of those dialogues happening. so I think what needs to change is like, how do we reshape DEI? Because it really is about elevating everybody. And also who gets to be part of that conversation? Like who gets to be part of the design conversation?
00:19:46
Speaker
Everybody. even majority white men, like they have to be part of the conversation. You can't silence them and give other people voices. And I think this is what a lot of people have issues with.
00:20:07
Speaker
You also, so since you talk about this topic, I would have to bring up this February session that i have attended, which is Doug. um Session with, ah I think was four other, well, mean like three other papers, but I think that session itself also stood out to me because it's actually a session all about Asians and Asian Americans in the workplace. Really? Yeah, that's what's fascinating in terms like how people are looking at different traits, different perceptions, different stereotypes of Asians, and how does that manifest it in different ways.
00:20:44
Speaker
And Duke is the one that um showcased our qualitative study on the racial microaggression for Asian Americans. ah So even attending that session, I remembered, um i forgot her name, I should actually remember.
00:20:58
Speaker
She did this study that basically looked into some of the stereotypes between East Asians and South Asians. And it was like, Oh my gosh, why you can't do this ah three or four years ago so I can cite this paper. But essentially what they have been finding here is um people do view like so South Asians and East Asians in the workplace very differently.
00:21:20
Speaker
And some of those characters. And how so? Yeah, some of the characteristics that we have uncovered, she has talked about East Asians being more dynamic, they're more assertive, and they're being, and some part of it is because of the culture. East Asians are seen as more dynamic, more assertive?
00:21:37
Speaker
Oh, no, so sorry, did I say East Asians? It was South Asian. South Asian. Yeah. South Asians were seen as more assertive, more dynamic, and... ah Some part of it is because the cultural history that they had as a community versus like East Asians, where like East Asians were perceived as more submissive and we are more quiet. So all those things that we already know, but I think her study was taking in the workplace where you'd be able to confirming some of those stereotypes that in day-to-day also implies that work.
00:22:11
Speaker
um So I had a ah quick conversation with her after the the the session itself. I'm glad to see more and more people to get into that space. And I think the author who did that research herself is a South Asian, which i I think it's very interesting to see that perspective coming out from her as well. like how Also, like how she interpreted the results.
00:22:37
Speaker
um Yeah, that was probably one of the highlights. I do think as we are lost in some of the battlegrounds on the Yale front, there are like as a community like a SIOP still value the um the the research that we do.
00:22:56
Speaker
It's science. I do think, um I think the panelists also in general share there's a pity that it's almost like all those e come against like a cutting funds, cutting all those a science funds is a war.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's anti-science. Yeah, it's a war of science, for science. so And we do organizational science. So as a discipline, we were attacked in that way. So it's not only just the AI, it's not only just the diversity research, it's it's the science at risk right now.
00:23:28
Speaker
And by the way, I think your name was, I think I'm going to botch this name, Anmol, or something like that. I am botching the name. I mean, speaking of being anti-science, um since I work at a medical school, um I can share what I've been seeing there is that he's not just attacking like and NIH grants or and NSF grants that focus on DEI. The administration is also going after grants that look at HIV, grants that look at vaccine confidence. So these are have nothing to do with DEI, and yet they're being attacked.
00:23:59
Speaker
And I think last I saw, NASA is going to lose like half of their budget. So yeah, it's like that they they are anti-science, but I love the fact that we're still talking about like, yes, we have to uphold science and continue to do good science to inform decision-making.
00:24:15
Speaker
Can I also talk about a little bit about the AI? topics, topics It's um like I shared at the very beginning. i
Generative AI in Workforce Planning
00:24:23
Speaker
do think people would just start to learn what AI or what this GNI tool can help them last year.
00:24:32
Speaker
So that was a beginning. Like I recall, I've been to some of the session, people were talking of prompt engineering impro promptmp engineering, meaning like they help you to write like a better prompt. So you'd be able to ah get a better output from co-pilot or tragedy team. This year,
00:24:49
Speaker
like all those prompt engineering terminology was used so commonly almost to feel like it's part of and the common understanding for everyone. So for example, they were talking about like a zero shocks, two shocks.
00:25:06
Speaker
Those are some of the prompting engineering techniques. And a lot of those panelists were just using it as some common concepts that we have already learned from grad school, which I found it's interesting. Eko, can you explain what that is?
00:25:20
Speaker
Yeah, so ZeroShot is ah one of those. um So within the prompt engineering technique itself, there are different ways that you'll be able to get to like a better outcome. ZeroShot is you literally just ask a one simple question, and there's no follow-up. Like a two-shot is probably you're going to ask a follow-up question,
00:25:40
Speaker
and revert it in a slightly different way. I'm not going to get into the details, but you're just keeping that in mind. like that That was one of the prompt engineering techniques that people are using.
00:25:52
Speaker
But I thought, it's interesting how I hear the IOs we're talking about. in some of those sessions almost as if like they would assume people already know about it even like the reaction you two had when i um throwing the words out was like yeah interesting i don't think this is something that we as trained as ios um but you can see especially this year there are more people embrace those concepts than it ever does, because I sometimes get the comment or feedback from other people, like I.O. are very much to their self, their own bubble, like they're in their own bubble. theyre They're proud of what they do. We are, but also sometimes the feedback turning to i just don't want to learn what's out there ah for um beyond what I.O. is doing. But I think the session that I've been to
00:26:47
Speaker
from what i see those panels has been very actively embed those GAI in their day-to-day flow. And there are also sessions that talking about AI agents itself.
00:27:01
Speaker
um And I thought that was very interesting, not only because how the IOs using AI agents to facilitate or augment their own work.
00:27:13
Speaker
But also at the same time, I think as I, we also need to be thinking about then what does it mean from the workforce planning perspective in terms like how, so in the past we study how human interact with another human and the behavior people demonstrate at workplace.
00:27:34
Speaker
But now it's the human versus the machine or the human versus the agent. um So how does that relationship would evolve? um And I think this is probably putting more of a challenging ask for us as I.O.
00:27:51
Speaker
as a community that we need to start thinking about those things. Like how does that interaction Maybe in NextSignUp, we're going to see more about, it's not only only about the um how the leadership was selected by another human being. It's about how the leadership or how the leaders were selected by some of agents and ah some of the inherent bias that went into it.
00:28:15
Speaker
I thought that was fascinating. um mean, that would be a really cool topic. Do people authorize leaders who are chosen by an AI agent you know versus a human? I know it's it's fascinating to think about um as the work involved, how we can add more ah value to it.
00:28:32
Speaker
Well, thanks for sharing that perspective. I think that's a and ah positive way to end the podcast. And
Future PSYOP Conference Announcement
00:28:37
Speaker
hopefully next year we'll all be in, i believe it's going to be in New Orleans for next PSYOP.
00:28:43
Speaker
Yeah. At least we'll get some Caffe Du Monde and beignets. That'll be a guarantee. Maybe we can even get some good Vietnamese food. You know, I heard there's a big Vietnamese population that came there in the 70s.
00:28:55
Speaker
ah We will have to try out the food and do a food review too then. Now we're talking, that's a fantastic idea. Ekko, do we have a haiku to end our episode? I just throw in a prompt for ChatGPT and this is what I got from it. I'm just going to throw this in the chat.
00:29:15
Speaker
ah The prompt I gave is write me a haiku to speak to the topics, generative AI and the recent EO impact on the site of community. shift to the ground of what we know, order meets the spark.
00:29:29
Speaker
Yeah. Because it's implying that the executive orders, that like ah orders meet the spark. Yeah. yeah Yeah, it, well. Well, ChatGPG get with the program and is like completely out of touch with what we were talking about.
00:29:44
Speaker
I guess our generative AI friend can sometimes, you know, have these little... Well, probably also because I did not fit into in enough of a context for GAI to be able to be smarter than what it sounds.
00:29:59
Speaker
Yeah. Hopefully it'll be better by next year. So... Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. We will catch you all on our next episode next month.
00:30:13
Speaker
Bye. Bye, everyone. Bye, everyone. um
00:30:25
Speaker
okay