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Real Talk with Leaders in the Field: Beiwen
48 Plays7 months ago
Hidden in plain sight welcomes its first ever guest speaker, Beiwen! Beiwen, a seasoned DEI consultant, sat down with us to talk about the rewards and challenges of doing DEI work. Is there such a thing as DEI gone wrong? What is virtue signaling? Is it harmful? Is your organization doing DEI just to check the box? Lastly, where and how do Asian American and Asian professionals fit into the DEI discourse? Join us for a thought-provoking conversation!
Articles for nerds
https://www.wsj.com/business/c-suite/chief-diversity-officer-cdo-business-corporations-e110a82f
Link to Beiwen’s podcast
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/%E9%9B%85%E7%97%9E%E4%B8%8D%E7%97%9Eyuppieyawns/id1487023939
https://open.spotify.com/show/7ufKsdBIL3ro46wSLWkRGi?si=4yMkUJJPTIOa3TWn9hnnhA
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Transcript
Introduction and Beihuan's Role in DEI
00:00:13
Speaker
Hi, listeners. Welcome to another episode of Hidden Plain Sight. I'm Echo. And I'm Joe. And I'm Jenny. Well, for this episode, we are very pleased to announce that we're going to start our speaker series. And for this first episode, we have invited our good friend and good alum from our program, Beihuan.
00:00:36
Speaker
join us for today. Welcome, Beyla. Thank you. It's such an honor to be here. And I didn't realize I'm the first guest, so super honored to be here. And I'm a fan of the podcast. I find so many topics we've discussed really deeply resonant with me. So thank you for having me.
00:00:53
Speaker
Yeah, we're lucky to have you.
Beihuan's Career Journey and DEI Commitment
00:00:55
Speaker
Fei Wen is a seasoned human capital professional with extensive experience spanning various industries, including finance, pharmaceuticals, technology, healthcare, and consulting. She is now serving as a director of tenant and leadership development at a software technology company. Before assuming her current role, she also played instrumental roles in established
00:01:19
Speaker
establishing two centralized diversity, equity, and inclusion DEI functions for two Fortune 500 companies. She holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Psychology from Skidmore College and a Master of Arts degree in Occupational Psychology from Teachers College, Columbia University.
00:01:40
Speaker
So with that being said, I also wanted to add Beyuan is also a good friend of mine that we know each other from many years ago. And I know she is also very dedicated to help other students to find their either on their career goals or helping them to achieve their career goals. For listeners who are interested in getting in touch, I think we can definitely ask Beyuan if they wanted to reach out afterwards.
Multicultural Background and DEI Passion
00:02:08
Speaker
Beyuan, you wanted to add anything?
00:02:10
Speaker
Thanks for that wonderful introduction, Akol. It's funny because as you were introducing me, my imposter syndrome was kicking in, which I think is very relevant to the theme of your podcast. So I can just maybe add a little bit personal background about myself for the audience. So I am originally from Shanghai, China. I was born and raised there till I was 14.
00:02:35
Speaker
before I left to study abroad on my own in Singapore for two years before being the first person in my family to come to the US. I spent some time on the West Coast first before moving to the Northeast region for undergrad and grad school. And now I'm a working professional.
00:02:54
Speaker
based out of Connecticut. So I also had a chance to live in Denmark during my college time. So I think having lived and studied in four different countries, right? So China, Singapore, Denmark, and the US now.
00:03:09
Speaker
I think that experience really helped foster my passion for diversity, equity, and Christian belonging, as well as work psychology or psychology in general, since I had to experience many culture shocks, reverse culture shocks, identity crises, et cetera, over the past 20 or so years. Yeah, so I really feel like what I do here is
00:03:39
Speaker
here, meaning what I'm currently doing in my professional career, is truly my calling. Yeah, I'm very, very excited to be here to discuss something that's very, very near and dear to my heart. Yeah, so thanks again for having me.
Leading DEI Teams and Post-2020 Changes
00:03:59
Speaker
So Bevan, could you talk a little bit about your experience doing DEI work? Yeah, sure.
00:04:05
Speaker
So while I consider myself a leadership development professional, I've had the privilege and the fortune to lead some DEI teams as well in my career. And I've worked at companies that have been doing DEI for decades before the social unrest back in 2020. I've also joined a company that didn't have a function until after what happened in the society. So it's been really interesting to see both sides of the table.
00:04:35
Speaker
And I would say for the first, like in the first bucket, what happened back in 2020, probably just added like fuel to the fire, it really accelerated some of the development work. And I would say for the second bucket, like the organization that didn't have a function until after 2020, or just due to the social unrest, I think it's really exciting to be in a brand new function, but I have to be super honest that
00:05:03
Speaker
I was experiencing lots of burnout myself. Everything felt like an uphill battle, right? You have to convince everyone to do things. Okay. I feel like that went downhill and into the negative space very quickly. But I would say, um, in general, I think it was a very exciting opportunity, but I also left the AI for a reason, right?
Burnout and Transition to Leadership Development
00:05:25
Speaker
Right now I'm doing leadership development because I truly believe that you don't need to be a dedicated AI practitioner to make impact on the AI.
00:05:31
Speaker
And right now I'm embedding DIA into everything I do. And while I was in the DIA space full time, I was experiencing extreme burnout that I've never experienced before in my career. I did it for a couple of years. I'm like, okay, that's good enough. Now I'm ready to move on. And I talked to a couple DIA practitioners and it was comforting to find out that it was a very common sentiment and feeling.
00:05:57
Speaker
Yeah, we're on like that burnout piece. I know we talked about this as friends, but I wanted to see like what you wanted to share to our listeners, like how that experience looked like, what made you feel like there's this sense of like burning out and wanted to go into a different place.
Convincing Leadership of DEI Importance
00:06:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think, to me, it's two main things. And when I say two main things, I think they're somewhat connected.
00:06:24
Speaker
The first one is, as I mentioned, everything felt like uphill battle, right? You have to convince the leadership, why do we need to do this? And leaders, they're often at different maturity level when it comes to understanding of why we need DEI and when you meet with leaders who don't have the buying yet. It's really difficult to actually make impact. And I'm just like, why is everything so difficult? And it makes me feel like you're just creating this team for the sake of creating for PR reasons or for whatever other reasons.
00:06:53
Speaker
And secondly, I'm in this space because it's my personal mission to make an impact and make a difference in people's lives. And when I can't accomplish what I'm set out to do, that's very frustrating to me. And it makes me doubt my personal values, my mission, my purpose, and it's just not a great feeling. But
00:07:17
Speaker
That being said, I've also met many, many wonderful people who are very passionate about DEI, who really believe in it, including many senior leaders. And when that happens, it's extremely inspiring.
00:07:28
Speaker
definitely two sides of the coin. It's not all bad. I just don't make that super clear. I think you touched on a point about like virtue signaling and what a lot of companies did like right after the BLM movement. Did you notice that there's a difference between working with companies that were doing it beforehand or doing DEI work before BLM versus the companies that jumped on the bandwagon after BLM?
DEI Practices Pre- and Post-BLM Movement
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I would say even just in the nature of work, right? I feel like
00:07:59
Speaker
When I worked at a company that had been doing DEI work for many years prior to the Black Lives Matter movement, the things we do were much more meaningful and much more strategic. There is an overarching DEI strategy and it's tied to the business, whereas when I worked at a company that just started on their DEI journey, it felt like what we are doing is very
00:08:23
Speaker
very much in the infancy stage, right, study of ERGs, hiring guest speakers during events. It's very much event-driven, like happy hours. And like when we're in 2024, like we move on from that stage. It's not just about having happy hours or guest speakers at book clubs anymore, right? It's just the nature of work is simply very different. It also sounds very reactive.
00:08:48
Speaker
Very reactive, yes.
DEI Community Layoffs and Implications
00:08:51
Speaker
And the unfortunate fact is a lot of companies in the second bucket that I just mentioned are backpedaling, right? Like I'm currently in an API, DI community. There are about nearly 100 API, DI professionals. I was actually very surprised that we even reached that number. Anyways, both of the founders of that community were recently laid off. It's just two examples of many DI practitioners
00:09:18
Speaker
what many DIA partners experience over the past year. And it's really, really unfortunate. I can definitely speak to that, having done a little bit of DEI and the startup that I was at as well, too. It felt like, you know, Baywin, like you said, that need when it's there, they want you there, and it becomes kind of that PR thing.
00:09:37
Speaker
where they want to look good in front of their employees and pipeline and project some sort of light onto them that they're trying to do good. But then, you know, when it goes away, so does the funding and so does the job sometimes. Yes. And Doki just touched on funding, which was a big piece. And that's why I told my friends I will never work for another company's DEI role unless there's a chief diversity officer that reports directly to the CEO.
Chief Diversity Officer's Role and Impact
00:10:07
Speaker
I think, so I used to report to the CDO chief diversity officer who reported directly to CEO, and that was a complete game changer for me. We had our own budget, we had our own funding, and we truly had to see that table. Like my manager was at the C-suite meeting, at the board meeting every single time, right? So he was able to infuse the DEI lens to truly everything we do, not just some over-reports into the CPO, which is often a structure at most companies. Yeah, so just want to mention that.
00:10:37
Speaker
I was going to add to that. Bevin, do you find, in contrast, how is that different? Because I think most of the companies still have the diversity function under HR. How did you find that change the, I mean, funding is one perspective. But how does that also change the dynamics? Have you find that? Yeah, I think, good question. I think accountability, that's a huge one.
00:11:06
Speaker
When you put DEI function under HR, it feels like, oh, it's an HR issue. It's HR department's responsibility to fix it. But when it's an independent function, then it becomes a business responsibility, a business accountability. I was at a pharmaceutical company where I was reporting to the CDO, who reported directly to CEO, and we were actually able to apply DEI in clinical trials.
00:11:34
Speaker
And that becomes a business thing and it's just a very different sort of put DI on a different level. And I can, we cut this out if it's like going to too much weeds, but I was very, very intrigued when we were trying to apply DI to clinical trials, right? Because I was in the rare disease space and I didn't know this before, but some of the rare diseases disproportionately impact certain ethnicities, certain races.
Integrating DEI into Clinical Trials
00:12:03
Speaker
However, most people in clinical trials may not be from that particular ethnic group, right? Due to many reasons, because sometimes it's because people have to take time off from work in order to participate in clinical trials. And not everyone's able to afford that, right? And then you run into the issue where you're doing clinical trials of people that may not even be the patient population. And so we were able to just think creatively about how do we enlist more, for example, black patients into the program.
00:12:32
Speaker
And through our partnership with our ERGs, we found out, hey, black churches, that's a great place for you to promote your clinical trials. And if the priests are brought into this kind of activities, this kind of work, people are more likely to participate. So in addition to the logistics about not being able to participate in clinical trials, there's also lack of trust in a black community when it comes to clinical trials.
00:13:01
Speaker
Right. So we were also thinking about creative, how to address that as well. It's like, that is true. The work in my opinion, right? Not the book club, not the happy hours. Not the foods. I mean, health, but just temporarily. Yeah. That's a good place to start, but most places just stop with that.
00:13:21
Speaker
So you mentioned a really interesting point about like chief diversity officers and doing DEI work where there is a chief diversity officer. And I think even that is coming under attack because a lot of chief diversity officers burned out, left or fired from their job.
Philosophies on Chief Diversity Officers
00:13:39
Speaker
And I remember reading an article and we can link this in our description.
00:13:43
Speaker
That right after 2020, the one of the most popular roles that companies were hiring was the chief diversity officer role. And then, you know, four, three, four years later, a lot of those roles are now gone.
00:13:57
Speaker
So I think that speaks to the fact that this is just the virtue signaling for a lot of those companies who are just jumping on the bandwagon, like after, you know, George Floyd. Maybe some of them state the course, but I think a lot of them just were like, okay, you know what? There's a recession. We have to cut corners. We have to cut our budget. Let's get rid of our diversity. Yeah, Jenny, that's actually a really interesting point. And I've heard different perspectives. I was so curious to hear your thoughts.
00:14:25
Speaker
So when I spoke to a very seasoned CHRO who did not have a CDO on her team, she said it was a very intentional decision to not having a CDO because she does not want to position DS that CDO's responsibility to fix. It should be a shared responsibility across the business, which I agree conceptually. At the same time, I feel like one company is not mature enough to operate in that ideal way. You need someone to be there to constantly reinforce
00:14:54
Speaker
the DEI strategy, the DEI mentality. So I think it's like, it's a very interesting tension, right? Also a balance you need to strike. Yeah, they're different philosophies. And that also brought me thinking that conversation that we had a while back was like, how does those like a DEI work is really contribute to the business is one thing. So like example that you mentioned, they went like,
00:15:19
Speaker
the work you all did was actually helping the business to run better because then you'll be able to run a better experiment and you'll be able to do more of a representative reach to the clinical trials. And that actually brought real value to the business. And I think that's a lot of like a DEI initiative.
00:15:39
Speaker
fail to do that yet. We're still kind of stopping the phase. How can we increase the reputation of the employees? Or some people might do this a bit better, like make sure like the vendors and actions are more representative. But I think at the end of the day, it's like
00:15:56
Speaker
How much value do people also be able to bring to the table? And then you can have a seat at the table and say, hey, this tuning matters to us. And I think that's probably where I'm hearing or inspired by some of your sharing areas, like how truly is the DEI function contribute to the business? So it's not just a number in the workforce.
00:16:18
Speaker
Yeah, so true. Actually, you mentioned a number, and I know I think all of you touched on this several times throughout your podcast episodes, right? Every time we talk about the younger, it deeply frustrates me because no one cares about the numbers about Asians. And I'm just like, please, can we talk about Asians?
00:16:38
Speaker
I've worked in many industries, including technology from a sort of call, which has a lot of Asians. So I was just saying that I worked in some industries that tend to have more Asians than the others. And when that happens, Asian representation often gets overlooked.
00:16:55
Speaker
However, what people don't discuss is most of the Asian populations, first of all, they're not in leadership positions, right? They're more like junior or middle management. Secondly, they're highly concentrated in maybe two departments, right? But don't talk about that. And I've done
00:17:12
Speaker
I can't remember what it was called, like the young maturity survey or something like that, or the engagement survey. And it was very, very clear that yes, while Asians are the second highest when it comes to representation, but they actually had the least amount of sense of belonging, right. But again, no one talks about that. And that to me was really frustrating.
Asian Representation in DEI Conversations
00:17:35
Speaker
And I understand, you know, we need to start somewhere.
00:17:40
Speaker
Uh, what I'm focusing on probably, you know, version two, three, and four. Yeah. But just want to share my experience. Well, I think that's like ways into like the, uh, the next set of questions that we have for you. What are some of the, the, the challenging points about doing this type of work as an Asian woman? Because like you mentioned, we are not included and we are often not
00:18:09
Speaker
even mentioned in like diversity conversations. And I find that super frustrating and very like alienating. So I want to know like, what's, what's your experience? Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, like, like, like you said, Jenny, it's, I can only advocate so much for, for, you know, the Asians at work. Because when you look at numbers for the other ethnic groups, it is way worse.
00:18:37
Speaker
Right. And when you have that kind of situation, I feel even better. So you, Hey, what about Asians? Like, you know, that kind of guilt that you carry is like, Oh, we're the model minority. You know, we're already doing very well. Right. Yeah. It's like, I even feel bad advocating about Asians when the other groups are doing quote unquote, worse. Yeah. And I do have to say, because a lot of companies started having DI functions after the BLM movement, it was very much focused on the black community.
00:19:06
Speaker
Right? Not saying that's wrong. I don't want to offend any audience. But I'm just saying oftentimes when you dedicate a lot of resources on one particular population, then you may overlook some other populations that also may need some support and resources. And you too have their unique challenges. And I think that's a whole issue. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
00:19:27
Speaker
And I've worked at a lot of global companies since the pandemic started. And because you cannot even collect ethnicity information outside the US. So oftentimes, now we just talk about female, right? We don't even talk about people of color anymore. Yeah.
00:19:47
Speaker
I'm hearing this big piece on like you actually feel guilty when you started to bring like Asian as an identity like how does that feel like for you like personally in terms like you felt this guilt
Challenges in Advocating Asian Representation
00:20:00
Speaker
being an Asian but you also wanted to do something for this group like what's that impact to you both like professionally and personally? Yeah I think it's I think it definitely contributes to some of
00:20:14
Speaker
the burnout maybe I was feeling or frustration I was feeling. I feel like I couldn't really do what I was set out to do, as I mentioned. And I'm also empowering across all, but my biggest passion is to empower Asians specifically, particularly Asian females. And when I feel like I didn't really have the voice to do that or opportunity to do that,
00:20:39
Speaker
Um, sometimes it can get really frustrating and not saying I don't want to help others. I don't want people to walk away with the idea that I only want to help patients. That's definitely that's far away from the truth. Right. But there's always a group that's very near, dear to our heart. Right. And I'm not able, I find it challenging to advocating for the group that I identify myself with. Can I ask a follow up question? How does your team dynamics look like? What's your team makeup? You may cover a little before.
00:21:07
Speaker
Like when you were meeting those two DIA teams. Yeah, I would say, when you say dynamic, can you say more like what were
Team Demographics and Representation Dynamics
00:21:17
Speaker
you? Yeah, I guess like those are two questions. The first question is how was the team made up look like demographically? And then how does that impact the dynamics like you all working together? Because I definitely hear you from that frustration not be able to hear the Asian
00:21:34
Speaker
group more than you expected. But how does that affect that interaction with the team? Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely oftentimes the only Asian female on the team. And oftentimes, I would say majority are Black or African-Americans. I often say that people that are more likely to get into the world, they're either African-Americans or they are from the LGBTQ community. It just tends to happen that way.
00:22:03
Speaker
Right. I'm not saying it's good or bad. It's just my experience so far. And Asians, I don't know why exactly, but there are just not many Asians in the D.I. space. And which is why I'm like so inspired by this podcast. I feel like what you're doing is just so meaningful and impactful. I'm talking about all things Asian in the workplace, which I think is oftentimes a topic that's overlooked. Can I follow up on that real quick?
00:22:27
Speaker
Beiwen, you mentioned that sometimes you're the only Asian female in there. How does it feel to be the only Asian female and they're only the only one of your race or the race and ethnicity in there? Yeah. Yeah, I go. I started to go ahead. I was gonna say, um, just like I have to go with the flow. Like I can't
00:22:52
Speaker
It always like, um, I mean, of course my team was very supportive. I could always have a voice if I wanted to, but at the same time, being the only Asian female, every time I advocate for example, for Asian population for an, um, like an Asian event or, or whatever. I always ask myself, okay, am I cherry picking? Like, am I coming across as I'm only supporting Asians?
00:23:16
Speaker
right? Because I'm the only Asian on the team. I mean, of course, there's Asian ERGs, which is often a very large group, right? But when it comes to DEI team, oftentimes, I'm the only Asian female, I just want to make that clear for our audience. I'm not saying you know, there's no Asian ERGs, because that they don't do as a full time job, right? So I don't really comes. Yeah, I'm excluding them from this conversation. Makes sense. I would also say like, this is
00:23:43
Speaker
maybe like a me thing, maybe not an Asian thing, because I don't want to overgeneralize. But I don't tend to be super vocal in large groups. And when the entire team is, for example, in team meetings, I may be hesitant to even speak about certain things in the first place. And when you are the only Asian female, I think sometimes that might hinder a little bit more. And even
00:24:10
Speaker
Yeah, like reinforce that hesitancy, I would say. That's so interesting. I was, as you were speaking, I was thinking like, you know, when you're the only one, or instead of like, instead of just one, if there's two, and if you did certain things a certain way, if there was like things that are cast on to that, like, like if you felt like you had to represent a whole, the whole entire group.
Representation Challenges for Asian Female in DEI
00:24:31
Speaker
of folks or didn't do represented Asian or Asian women in that specific group. And if that was a burden on you or that you felt or that you notice that affected the way that you communicated or expressed yourself within those meetings. Yeah, definitely. I would say
00:24:53
Speaker
Definitely that. And also I'm just thinking about one of the questions you asked previously about how this impacts my work. It's very interesting because oftentimes I think there were times I might have offended some Asian employees at work. So for example, I don't get cut as I think that's a good idea. So like a couple of years ago, I can't remember, it was a 2021, the whole anti-Asian pay sentiment was very popular.
00:25:23
Speaker
And we had like a real talk at work, right, where we had Asian leaders to talk about their lived experiences. And I think, and they were like, literally, you have a very senior leader in tears talking about how she was discriminated. And someone told her to go back to her own country on the street in front of her kids. It was traumatizing. It was incredibly impactful. And I was like, we need to do more of these. Anyways,
00:25:53
Speaker
I think I reached out to an Asian employee and I was like, Oh, would you like to share experience? But I think he was offended because, Oh, you're reaching out to me simply because I'm an Asian. What if I don't really identify myself with that particular group? Like just because I physically look Asian. Oh, identity denial. Yeah. Or maybe, you know, someone could be, for example, adopted, right? Like they don't really identify themselves with Chinese or Asian.
00:26:22
Speaker
So I feel like sometimes I may have potentially offended someone, seeing people go, Oh, you look Asian, I'm gonna reach out to you. Like, would you like to speak at an event? And I realized that's not, you know, a good move all the time. Last week, we talked about like this like identity salience.
00:26:38
Speaker
and like Asians who talk about their identity versus Asians who don't really talk about their identity and Asians who deny their identity. And I think I don't think you did anything wrong. I honestly think there's something wrong with that guy and he has a lot of learning to do to embrace his identity.
00:26:56
Speaker
Because it's not like all or nothing. And I think the problem is people feed their identity like it's binary or like it's zero or one. It's like I'm either all Asian or not. But he's going to walk through life as an Asian and people are going to project things onto him because of his race. The fact that he reacted that way, I think that's more reflection on him, not on you. Okay. Thank you for making me feel better.
00:27:16
Speaker
And I think it also speaks to the type of work that Beywen has to do. And sometimes she has to, it sounds like you have to tiptoe on eggshells to make sure you do everything right, right? Because the moment you do something wrong, they're going to point towards, well, our diversity initiative didn't pan out the way we wanted. And it becomes kind of a, you know, you become the downfall or the scapegoat for things not working out right. Yes. And just to piggy off that, you just touched on sort of another reason why I was feeling so much for an app.
00:27:45
Speaker
is no one's ever all happy after any DI initiative. After those real talk, I walked away feeling inspired and really touched by what
Mixed Reactions to DEI Initiatives
00:27:55
Speaker
the stories people share. And some people, they're like, oh, it's too touchy feely, it's too much. We don't need to talk about that at workplace. This is politics, or this is not professional. We don't want to see our leaders crying. And some people, they might be really inspired like I was.
00:28:10
Speaker
So it's just like after everything you do, after all the sweat, you know, tears are important, like people still complain about things. I'm just like, please. It's really hard to please every single person. Yes. And you can't. You can win. You can win.
00:28:29
Speaker
But going back to what you said, Beyuan, about the employee engagement results and finding that Asians had the lowest belonging score, what are your thoughts on the current environment that we're in? Doug, you mentioned we're walking on eggshells where it's polarized. We feel guilted into even mentioning our own challenges in the DEI space. So what do you think the current situation
00:28:57
Speaker
the way we're like focusing on like cancel culture versus like cancel culture like what's how do you think that plays into this um i mean right um let me think let me think on that um i'm curious to hear yet you know like do i can echo do you have any thoughts on that before i share mine i want to think about it too
00:29:18
Speaker
I mean, it doesn't have to be like in one way. Well, it's become so polarized and we're walking on eggshells and we're not really, we're really engaging with like DEI or like cross racial conversations at a very superficial level. And I think a lot of like our DEI initiatives are missing the point and not really giving us the space to have these conversations. It's such a dip question, Jenny.
00:29:43
Speaker
And this probably not respond to your question directly, how does that relate to the society dynamics that we're in. But I also remember like that, that was like, there was like one article saying like, Hey, these groups are the one that feeling the most excluded across all and
00:30:02
Speaker
presents such a contrast that we're the most represented in certain roles, but we're groups that are feeling the most excluded. That's such a contrast. I think part of it was, a lot of that is to Beowen, what I mentioned earlier, is what company cares is not in what addressing the issues that Asians were facing.
00:30:27
Speaker
And to a certain degree, it's actually pushing them further out. Say, for example, like the diversity numbers, because it is already pretty much well-represented in the entry-level roles, which are the diversity goals that companies cared about the most. You're going to be left out, and you're also feeling like you are being targeted as.
00:30:49
Speaker
the groups that needs to be like almost like be part of your role to certain groups. So I think there's some like a delicacy in that kind of like what's going on in the society is actually push putting a lot of pressure on Asians on like you're the model minority and you don't need any of this. Therefore you we are not doing anything for you. So that kind of creates that sense of like
00:31:14
Speaker
I really don't have a billion here because nobody actually cared about me. Or your effort addressing those challenges are not for me, but for anyone else. And it also kind of makes us look like crybabies because if you are the most overrepresented group, but you're the group that says or has the lowest belonging score, leaders might be like, okay, like Asians are just crybabies, as opposed to understanding like why, what's the mechanism? Like, why are we feeling that way?
00:31:41
Speaker
This is like a few years back. I was the one that had to present this data to our leadership by showing different cuts by the identity groups. And it was interpreted exactly the same way that you mentioned, Jenny. And also, it's interesting because on the
00:32:01
Speaker
hot number-wise. Say, for example, we also look at a promotion rate and some of the promotion velocities. Asian are actually being promoted more than some other groups. So when we present this data, almost to make the Asians look really bad, it's like you actually get the most rewards and gets the most of the career outcome. And you're still crying for, you don't feel like you're being included. You don't feel like you have a sense of belonging.
00:32:31
Speaker
And I still remember there was a one comment from the leadership, this group is just very demanding. And so, at that time, I was like, well, first of all, like as an analytics person, I know that's what I saw from the data. But on the other side is, I'm also an Asian employee. And so, you know, like, sometimes I feel you like a bail and it's like, when you are in the position, you can't really fight for the interest of your own group.
00:33:02
Speaker
you feel like that itself is an exclusionary experience for me, you know?
Cultural Upbringing and DEI Advocacy Approach
00:33:10
Speaker
I feel like also
00:33:22
Speaker
thinking back on my own upbringing, right? So I was born and raised in China until I was 14. And I feel like I grew up in a culture where I was told to just to do heads down good work, right? Don't ask for things, don't demand for things. And I feel like it's very uncomfortable when I have to ask for things in the first place. If I were in equal shoes, now I'm like asking and showing you the data and that gets shut down. That's even more frustrating. It's like, yeah, I
00:33:49
Speaker
I can't just hearing that makes me feel frustrated. I was going to chime in with like, I'm trying to tie this back into the work that Bey one does in the way that she approaches it in a pro social way of trying to lift everybody up. Right. And I'm thinking at that at the individual level and how that can permeate through the group and the organization.
00:34:09
Speaker
And if there's help there, it could probably help permeate or facilitate that process. But we also, as I'm thinking about it at the system level, like right now, when we have legislation attacking DEI initiatives, institutions, organizations pulling back on DEI initiatives claiming, you know, there's no funding for or they, you know, they're
00:34:31
Speaker
you know, or there's something new fad that they want to go with. In a way, there was a short-lived spotlight, but now it feels like it's being canceled and it's not as important. And it's frustrating to know that, you know, there is a need, there is a want for certain things. Organizations asked us what we want. We said it, and now they're not listening. It's frustrating to hear that and feel that when we say, we're going to be here, or when I hear, you guys are too demanding. Like, what does that mean?
00:35:01
Speaker
Like if you ask us and we tell you, and then you tell us we're too demanding, what does that say about you as an organization? Yeah. And as we were saying that, it just, I also had a thought, right? So I feel like I'm frustrated at the fact that the country or companies are cutting investment into your initiatives. I'm also equally frustrated.
00:35:23
Speaker
at the fact that there's so many companies doing DEI wrong. And I'm not saying I'm an expert in DEI that I know the perfect way, the accurate way to do DEI. It is a very tricky space. But when companies don't do DEI well,
00:35:36
Speaker
it's even more a disservice. I'd rather you don't do anything, but get it right. So oftentimes, a company's concept or understanding of doing DEI is slap employees with a training, unconscious bias, which I understand is a good starting point, but that's not going to fundamentally change anything.
Mandatory DEI Training Effectiveness
00:35:53
Speaker
And I'm just so deeply disappointed in that, as you can probably sense my frustration just through the screen.
00:36:03
Speaker
I don't think the current state of training or the way we think about how we train for or against bias and microaggressions, I don't think it's really working because it's creating more backlash, it's creating more polarity. So I think it really demands a conversation around how do we revise
00:36:24
Speaker
and re-evaluate how we package this material so it's more palatable and will receive less resistance. Yeah, and generally, it just reminded me of this debate on whether we should make DEI trainings or unconscious bias trainings mandatory, because you don't want people to feel like you're showing down their throat. At the same time, people who voluntarily participate in those trainings probably don't need it in the first place.
00:36:54
Speaker
It's a balance of attention. I've heard industry experts who say you should never make the AI trainings mandatory because it's only going to be counterproductive. I'm torn. I'm torn on that.
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah, I don't really have an answer, but I thought that's a very interesting debate. We should have another episode just on like, how do you, how do we rebrand, you know, DEI training to make it more palatable, to make it more, to make it resonate more with different folks? So it's not like we're going to train you because you did something wrong. We're making this mandatory for everybody because we want you to be in the know. Like these are the latest findings. How does this relate to your workplace? Yeah, actually that made me thinking like,
00:37:37
Speaker
It felt like there's never the right way to do things or check all the boxes.
Structural Changes for Effective DEI Work
00:37:45
Speaker
And that actually brought into our next question, probably this is where we can started to wrapping up for today is if you are still with that DEI professional, what will make your job easier?
00:37:59
Speaker
I would say, like I mentioned, structurally, right? I want to make sure structurally we're set up for success. And what I mean by structure, number one, is I mentioned, I need to report to someone or my team needs to be an independent function that reports directly into the CEO, not falling under COO or CPO. And also we need to be well-funded, right? We need to have the resources to do what we need. And also.
00:38:27
Speaker
The only time I saw DEI being truly successful is when there's shared buying across all C-suite leaders, which I know is extremely difficult to accomplish. But when you have a C-suite leader that's like that, it makes everything so much easier. It makes it so much more impactful. You know, if I have a magic wand, that would be what I wish for. Yeah, I would say those are probably the main things because I feel like so many times DEI initiatives or teams fail because structurally they were not set up for success in the first place.
00:38:57
Speaker
Right. And when you have the structure, the foundation set, everything else is so much easier. So I'll probably prioritize on that. So say what you mean, mean what you say, and let's stop with the virtue signaling. Yeah. Okay.
00:39:13
Speaker
Do we have, do we have a chat GPT to end our podcast? The question that we ask towards the end was what can organization do to make your job easier? And that remind me your experience earlier, you mentioned like now you're this professional in the leadership development place and you wanted to think about like a DEI from all the aspects when you were designing those program. Like, do you feel like that's actually easier for you to push forward?
00:39:41
Speaker
Yes, I don't know what it is, it's easier. Right. Yeah, that just gave me some inspiration with having all the professionals have the same mindset and IQ, Beyuan, and do their work on the different topics, but not just having this as a separate initiative. Yeah, no, that's a very good point. So I would say to answer
00:40:05
Speaker
The question asked me about what would make my job easier if a company were to have a DI function, right? Then my answer will be what I said. But if they choose not to make, have a DI function, which I think is fine. But that makes sure DI is embedding everything you do, right? Including leadership development, talent acquisition, whatever it is. But there needs to be the DI lens for sure.
00:40:30
Speaker
Thanks so much for joining our podcast. It was a pleasure having you. Oh, of course. I know you have a podcast. Do you want to spend a little bit of time talking a little bit about that so we can... Oh, sure. I mean, it's still online right now. But if anyone wants to check out the previous episodes, it's called Yaki Yans. So it's about young professionals, all things related to young professionals, either working, dating, you know, stuff. And you can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, but it's in Chinese, so...
00:41:00
Speaker
If you don't understand Mandarin, please check it out. Awesome. And also, Chad GPT gave us a haiku for this episode. All right. So the prompt that I gave it to is, write a haiku for a speaker series for an Asian professional doing DEI work. And what it returns back is, voice unite, write, DEI echoes through minds, Asian pro speaks night.
00:41:31
Speaker
Oh, Asian Pro speaks life? Yeah. What about heavy? How about the Asian Pro side?
00:41:47
Speaker
Okay, thank you so much for joining us on another episode of Hidden in a Clean Sight, all things Asian in the workplace. We'll catch you on our next episode. And thank you so much for everyone for joining us. Thank you so much for having me.