Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Permission to come home
0 Plays2 seconds ago
This month, the three of us hosted our very own mini book club. We chatted about our thoughts on Dr. Jenny T. Wang's Permission to Come Home, sharing what it means to take up space as Asians, our relationship with work and play, and the meaning of home.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Episode Format and Book Discussion
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome listeners to another episode of Hidden in Plains. I'm one of your hosts, Joop. I'm Echo. And I'm Jenny. And today's a little bit different. We have a different format today.
00:00:26
Speaker
have a book that we're going to talk about. And this book's topic was actually brought up by Echo. Actually, it was actually brought up by one of our previous guests. Honor was on her reading list, and Echo suggested that we would actually use this as a tool to talk about the issues that Asian and Asian Americans face in the workplace and maybe even daily
Personal and Environmental Factors in Asian Culture
00:00:48
Speaker
life.
00:00:48
Speaker
And the name of the book is Permission to Come Home by Jenny Huang. Echo, you want to lead us off and let us know why you wanted to read this book together? So I believe when we first had that guest series with Shannon, um she brought up this book in a context where she felt like that has really really helped her to validate her feelings and going through some of the emotional roller coasters for herself and keeping in mind as an Asian, as an identity. And I wanted to read that book. Jenny Wong is a clinic psychologist who is offering a lot of the
00:01:27
Speaker
opinions from the mental health perspective. And I was thinking this is actually a great topic for me to also get into to see like what's the other side of the house look like.
00:01:39
Speaker
Clinic psychology in our department sometimes and also like counseling psychology, like we have some mutual topics in terms like how we dealing with some of the perception issues in in the workplace.
00:01:52
Speaker
And I haven't got a chance to really embrace that much. And I feel like this is actually a great opportunity for me to learn what's that framework look like?
The Role of Personal Stories in Understanding Culture
00:02:01
Speaker
What's that perspective look like? So that's how I get started.
00:02:05
Speaker
it's amazing. Yeah, so where do we want to start? Do we just want to like dive in and talk about like first impressions? Like what we thought generally of the book? Yeah, sure.
00:02:16
Speaker
Jenny, what'd you think of the book? You know, I'm going to be a little honest. I was a little skeptical because I just thought it was going to be one of those... break the bamboo ceiling, you know like blame the Asian, we have to be more Americanized, we have to do more than this, that.
00:02:30
Speaker
And it kind of did start out that way just a little bit because it was talking about culture and like how Asians are taught and raised to value the collectivist, being less individualistic.
00:02:41
Speaker
So I was a little skeptical, but I was impressed by the fact that she addressed both the person and the environment nice Because we we talk about this a lot in our podcast, like behavior is a function of both the person and the environment. So she didn't just focus on the person or the Asians.
00:02:59
Speaker
She also talked about the environment that we operate in and the stereotypes that we have to face, racism that we face. So I really appreciate it. Like I walked away appreciating her perspective.
00:03:11
Speaker
That's what I took away from it. What about you guys? Nice. I would echo what you just said and then also add like the personal stories that she brought in with the traumas that she had to work through in her own life. Especially, I think there's a chapter, I think, where she talked about the things that she needed to talk to her mom about but didn't want have the energy or the strength to do so.
00:03:32
Speaker
So she wrote the chapter. So I thought she really personalized it and brought herself through this journey as
Rethinking Play: From Stereotypes to Self-Care
00:03:38
Speaker
well, too. So she's not telling us to just go do it. She went through it herself and i is still in the process of going through it and trying to bring us along. And I really appreciated that perspective.
00:03:48
Speaker
ah Plus one to both what you have said so far. um Even at the beginning, I was like, oh, this is just literally like tell me to work my own challenges. Like I read enough of it.
00:04:01
Speaker
Like I don't think I need that anymore. But then as I started to reading through more chapters, I also appreciate the perspective that she knew that for Asians, we have all those stereotypes. She knew how the society is viewing this population. Mm-hmm.
00:04:18
Speaker
But she is kind of find a way that validate us and giving us another framework to think about us, another lens to think about. one of the chapters I found that was so interesting is the permission to play.
00:04:34
Speaker
um was like, oh, seems like coming out of nowhere. But then when I started thinking about all the stereotypes that Asians are having, like working hard, working diligently, and something that she said,
00:04:45
Speaker
Sometimes play is just a purpose, is a goal. Like you don't have to think about, hey, after play, there's something else that you need to do itself. It's something that you should embrace. I was like, this is so helpful. As an Asian myself, I was...
00:04:59
Speaker
Even like reflecting upon some of my own behaviors. And and this is the part that I i really appreciate that perspective that I have not gained in the past. And also at the same time, i do think it has also broadened my perspective on how we think about health.
00:05:17
Speaker
Because after staying 12 years in United States, I have been thinking about moving back to Asia. And what does that mean? Like, i historically have been thinking about home as a way where my family, where my friends are, where my network are.
00:05:33
Speaker
But I do believe Dr. Wong has helped me to think about it more broadly. and And the definition that she had with home are somewhat different. definitely more go beyond what we have.
00:05:47
Speaker
I just like I have thought about before. and So I thought that was very helpful. Can I ask you both the questions? So what's your relationship with play? Don't get to play. Don't get to play. No, I'm kidding. i You know, I would say like maybe in my 20s, like early 20s or so, like work was play for me. And then I got serious and then I got away from play a little bit.
00:06:12
Speaker
But I feel like you know the way that she brought it in, the play, but the leisure time or the purposeful downtime, I think that's actually quite useful. And i in the last year, I've been trying to make time for it on the weekend a little bit here and there.
00:06:27
Speaker
And I think it's really good to really reset your mind or at least think about something else, even though I think my mind's probably still on whatever topic it's thinking about. It's just allowing that pressure to not be there, to build up, to continuously think about that that first topic, to get away from that.
00:06:47
Speaker
And sometimes I come back with a ah fresh perspective. Sometimes I don't. ah But I think it's actually something that is actually really good for me. Now, I think her concept of, like, I need to work hard in order to play,
00:07:01
Speaker
that was something that the nuance and new to me that I really appreciated because I think I operated under the, or have operated under the mentality of like, well, I got to work hard, do this, do this, check this off.
00:07:15
Speaker
Then I can play. Yep. Me too. Me too. Yeah. yeah word Yeah. And you know, I think her perspective, I think kind of twisted around for him. Like, you know what? Downtime is actually good for me.
00:07:27
Speaker
And I, Do any of you feel guilty? i have another friend named do um believe it or not and you know i tell them like on the weekend i do this and that and i don't give myself permission to plays give you know it's the freaking weekend and you can just relax yeah and i'm trying to leman that's a that's kind of my relationship with play nowadays do any of you feel guilty if you play too hard sometimes?
00:07:52
Speaker
Not so much guilt, but I'm very similar to Doug in that play has always been a reward for me. So i'm like, I'm gonna do this, work on this paper or you know submit this grant or finish this assignment, which is work related, not play related.
00:08:06
Speaker
And then I reward myself with play. But so that that's sort of like how I view it. ah but I don't feel guilty when I play, but... And I don't know if that's something about like ah the FOMO, like I'm missing something.
00:08:18
Speaker
Gratantly, like I don't think my work will need me during my vacation. and Sometimes I'm just probably to put too much pressure on myself that I have to deliver this thing. or I have to do that thing, you know?
00:08:30
Speaker
Yeah. Well, that's where I think the perspective of like expectations and like the the stereotypes that people have about us, that certainly comes into play. And I think certainly for me, yeah at least when I was in grad school and maybe beyond, I think there's this expectation that people view me in a certain way. They view me as always delivering, and know, meeting my deadlines.
00:08:51
Speaker
And I don't want to ever miss a deadline. I don't want to let something go or drop the ball. And I've sort of taken it as like, this is my, this is how I show pride in my work. But maybe there is something else to that. Like there is...
00:09:04
Speaker
As much as I don't want to say it's tied to stereotypes and I'm complying with it or I'm just kind of like enabling it. But maybe there is something to that, you know, and what you said about the fear of missing out.
00:09:16
Speaker
For me, I think it's more the fear of letting go and the fear of missing something, a deadline or like letting someone down professionally. and not wanting that solely my brand and my name.
00:09:27
Speaker
Or maybe it's just like, I got just how to let that go. literally have a recent example that. I'm heading home for the Lunar New Year, as you two already know. And we have a project that is ongoing, and we have some sort of like a soft deadline that we set the internal teams that we need to finish a certain depth before getting into the next next phase.
00:09:48
Speaker
And because I know that I have this vacation coming up, I have this DTO coming up. I knew I was working 12 hours a day. And this weekend, i also work a lot because I feel like I need to do that before my DTO. But I think The reality is, like if I already communicate
The Value of Play in Mental Health and Workplace Stress
00:10:08
Speaker
this to everyone, that they should actually project or plan that out.
00:10:12
Speaker
This is the part that Echo is not going to be here, and she's not going to be delivering those things. And so we have to think about that in that building that into the timeline.
00:10:22
Speaker
I think that's something interesting that you brought up as like that expectation that we need to do this thing by this time. And it's like that has been a barrier.
00:10:33
Speaker
Jenny, I was thinking about what you were talking about with like, you know, fulfilling that stereotype and, you know, trying to pick and participate in play. And I realized, think the play that I participated in, I perpetuate stereotypes too, because it's like retro video games.
00:10:49
Speaker
There's nothing wrong playing video games.
00:10:55
Speaker
Growing up. I mean, now, like, of course, now I get it. Like, I do think gaming is actually a great thing. Like, when I was growing up, like, ah my dad will be the one that actually bought those games and he wanted to play this with me. And for some reason, I'm like, no, I'm not playing games. Like, i ah when I, that to me is is someone who doesn't care about study, who don't care about their scores, and they would just spend days doing, like, wasting their time playing the games.
00:11:24
Speaker
So that that's that's how I felt when I was growing up. That's my relationship with gaming. So even like these days, i I don't enjoy it. And I think part of it is because I still have that mentality of myself as like gaming is a waste of time, which I know and I know for this might be a very offensive to a lot of our... Just one perspective.
00:11:48
Speaker
But it sounds like you're open to maybe shifting that. so Yeah. Like I absolutely recognize. I mean, like not that I never, never play games. Like I do find there are always ways that not only people find the the joy, but I think sometimes like you can very easily get into the zone or the flow and you know how hard it is to get into that flow those days with all the distractions in the reality. Anyway.
00:12:16
Speaker
I'll stop from here. Jenny, do you still play? You know I'm talking about? What type play? League of Legends. Oh no, no, no, not anymore. and i used to play you know i used to play a lot of video games, but not anymore.
00:12:28
Speaker
I'm thinking about maybe buying a PlayStation or something. I don't know yet. Is it a PlayStation? No, a Switch. I do have a Switch. Yeah, and and that was the time I brought during the pandemic.
00:12:41
Speaker
because I wanted to keep exercising some bit and there was a game that is like really going wide. But at the time, forgot the name of it, but it has like a ring circle where you actually like, it's a platy ring where you actually also exercise. wow So the reason that I bought that is not because I wanted to play, is because I wanted to exercise.
00:13:03
Speaker
Okay. And this episode is sponsored by Ring Fit Adventure. Yes, that was. Subtle promotion echo. Yeah, we need to get them to sponsor us. So what's the main takeaway from the play episode is is maybe reframing our relationship and how we think about play and how we embrace it.
Taking Up Space: Challenges and Strategies
00:13:21
Speaker
I'm going to rewire or try to rewire my brain around embracing play as more than just a reward. and just doing it as like self-care. Yeah. Playing as self-care and you can't work and be your best self if you don't play, if you don't disconnect and just do something for yourself.
00:13:39
Speaker
I love it. I love it. I was actually, actually, I, I, yeah, I'm, I'm totally with you. I think I'm going to try to do the same thing. And I think yesterday unconsciously did some play, like after finishing the book, oh now i think it's a reward after the book, yeah But I'm like, yeah, i gotta I want to do these little tweaks on my Switch controller, and I bought a kit to do it. I'm like, I'll do it next week after the episode. But I'm like, no.
00:14:05
Speaker
Good, good. Permission to play, permission to have fun without you know without that transactional thing. like If I do this, then I can reward myself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. love that.
00:14:20
Speaker
you know another chapter that I really, really liked was the chapter on permission to take up space. Oh, yeah. That one was really cool because she she talks about like what it means to be Asian...
00:14:34
Speaker
in the US, what it means to take up space as an Asian person when there's so many forces that want us to not take up space and the penalties that we face when we do decide to take up space and be agentic or whatever.
00:14:48
Speaker
so i don't know, I really appreciate that chapter just because I felt like she was also acknowledging what's in the system and what we have to combat. And going back to echo what you said about the examples, some of the examples that she shared was or were stories from what she had to go through and her kids had to go through doing the pandemic and the the the animosity and aggressiveness and some of the violence that they had to experience during that time.
00:15:14
Speaker
So I really appreciate that chapter. i also feel like somewhat like validated that not only like I can take up space, but also i shouldn't be feeling bad when I'm taking up space.
00:15:26
Speaker
And growing up, I was not the one that I wanted to be put on the spotlight. Like, I think it's just part of the culture, and part of the upbringing that I have growing up. And then like last year, when i defended my dissertation and you were there celebrating my accomplishment.
00:15:45
Speaker
And that was the first time ever I feel like, oh my gosh, I'm taking so much space, but I deserve it. You know, there was a part of me that was when I was going through this ah chapter, and I think it was a little bit earlier on, right? It was like chapter three or four. So I vaguely remember it, but it was, there's a part of me that said, you know, yeah, I'm kind of doing this ready because I feel like i try to constantly fight the stereotype on that. But I think there's unconscious parts of it that I was actually reflecting upon just like just now.
00:16:13
Speaker
The things that I do in my family that I just actually don't take up space on, and that which I know is important, which is you know helping you know my nieces and nephews prep for college. And now that most of them are there or have gotten their chance to go to college, helping them for financial literacy. And not only am I doing that for them, I'm doing that for the rest of the family.
00:16:34
Speaker
That is a huge thing. that is going to affect them in the next anywhere from like really five to 12 years for the first set of folks who are siblings that are going to retire.
00:16:44
Speaker
things ah i don't give myself enough credit. Or, you know, I try to be very soft and very gentle with it, but I know at certain times I need to be a little bit rougher with it and take up more space to let know how important this is I felt like I was able to do that a little bit over the winter break, but I felt like, you know at times where like, yeah, maybe I could have been a little bit, you know,
00:17:05
Speaker
stronger with my language or firmer with certain things. And I think there's certain dynamics, I think that it talks about in the book too, in the hierarchy. I'm actually the youngest of my my siblings. So imagine the youngest one telling the oldest one and all the other ones in between.
00:17:20
Speaker
what to do financially.
Cultural Expectations and Professional Boundaries
00:17:22
Speaker
you know The one that's worked the least, the one that supposedly has the least work experience to take up that space and let them know that, hey, this is what you need to do.
00:17:31
Speaker
And to an extent, I've been planting the seeds on this quite a bit for quite a few years. And I really, I was firmer on it this last, actually Thanksgiving and winter break.
00:17:42
Speaker
So I feel decent about that, but maybe I could have done little bit better. mean it sounds like you're taking on a lot of responsibility. You it's not that's not an easy task to get everybody in your family financially literate.
00:17:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And if they, well, at least I can't translate everything to Vietnamese, you know, so it's actually pretty hard. So ah certain things I just have to tell them, like they have to trust me on certain things that I won't do anything crazy with it.
00:18:08
Speaker
And Doug, what you shared, because I realize a lot of our examples also have a lot to do with how we are dealing with our relationship with our family members. And it has also also been a huge part of the examples that Dr. Wang has shared in the book. That somehow also got me thinking. And I think that's also related to that chapter called Commission to Say No. And I think what you have shared is like helping the family members has been the integrated approach part of our life compared to some of the other, maybe more so because of that family value that we have upheld for as the Asian community.
00:18:49
Speaker
And to me, I think that's also something very important for me to rethink about, like, my own relationship with my family as well. Like, I think part of the decisions or the choice that I'm making now is, like,
00:19:03
Speaker
going back to Asia and because that's like so I can take care of my parents. And i have been thinking about that a lot. Like, How much is that like driven by value that I feel like, oh, this is something that I have to do as a daughter versus something that felt like my parents, like we never have i never have that conversation with my parents. Like I don't even know if that's what they are hoping that I'm doing versus like I thought this is something as a daughter I need to do.
00:19:34
Speaker
a norm. No, I saw it like for some reason, like as I was going through that chapter, like setting the boundaries, have that conversations. And sometimes it's a new good negotiation too. Like I think, I do think sometimes like setting that boundary is hard, but once you set it up and people actually like that, like people like that stability, people like that certainty.
00:19:56
Speaker
um And you will see like you are also being respected. And I think she's probably not more talking about from the professional level, but also I think this applies to the personal front as well. Like we make all those, like ah when we feel like the relation can be tough is because we don't set that boundary.
00:20:13
Speaker
to people and so people always felt like, oh, it's implied that Echo can do this. And so to me, i think that's also very important as we were talking about getting with, taking up a lot of like responsibility from from for the family.
00:20:28
Speaker
I do think that's something for me to also rethink how I deal with the relationship with my own family.
00:20:37
Speaker
And so reframing this, since this is, you know, our podcast is about the workplace, you how am i picking up space and saying no and you're setting those boundaries? You know, how might that affect how we show up at work?
00:20:49
Speaker
And it's a question that I ask myself because i think I'm pretty good about setting boundaries and saying no and taking up space in a professional setting. But I think one place where i and
Self-Advocacy and Credit in Professional Settings
00:21:02
Speaker
maybe this is like a subconscious influence of my own Asian heritage,
00:21:06
Speaker
is, and it ah goes back to what Echo you were saying about when the focus is on you, and people are praising you, I feel very uncomfortable. And I don't know what why that is. And I'm always shifting it. I'm like, Oh, it's not me, it's the team. Oh, I couldn't have done this without someone else. But even when like i was the brain,
00:21:23
Speaker
or the main person who got the project done, you know i I should just be able to say, you know what, that was me. Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to take that. I'm going own that. But that is something that I still struggle with. And I'm always shifting it to my team, to the other people that I work with and giving sharing that credit.
00:21:41
Speaker
I think that that is also sort of somewhat of a handicap because sometimes you just be able to own it and be like, yeah. That was me. um and Yeah. Yeah. I'm so proud of myself. We should have an episode like that. it's like That was me. but So just talking about our accomplishments and owning it. I'm wondering, like, is that, does that happen to you at all? Like, and if so, what what are some things that we can do to be better about it? Because there's so many people who probably don't deserve that credit, who, when credit is given to them, they just, they just own it. Oh, it happens to me all the time. um
00:22:15
Speaker
and i Don't think this is just from that like Asian heritage or the mentality, but also I think as a woman in the workplace, sometimes I've observed that as well.
00:22:27
Speaker
I really need to learn like how people react to those accomplishments or people's compliments to your work. Because as one part of it, I wanted to acknowledge, yes, this is what I have done, but I also don't want to be perceived as egocentric.
00:22:43
Speaker
And I think there is a way that to do this. i don't i think that's the mentality I'm trying to combat with is do people will actually see me as like what might be the appropriate professional person?
00:22:56
Speaker
way to acknowledge your own accomplishments. That's probably like a tactic I wanted to learn. You and I, Echo, we have to think about not just being Asian, but also being a woman in a way that Doug doesn't have to, right?
00:23:09
Speaker
I did not think about how to be a woman this morning when I woke up. So I'm totally with you in that it's I've seen the the the other side of it where somebody will say or take too much credit. Yeah. And it's so cringe because I know my effort and I know what I put into it.
00:23:29
Speaker
So I'm totally with you in both in that there's a balance that needs to happen. And I feel like sometimes I have to balance the other person who's taking too much credit. Oh, do tell. do you tell I won't don't want to get into any specific examples, but I feel like certain folks that I've worked with have said or mentioned or explicitly mentioned that it was because of them that all this, this, and this happened. And I'm like, no, dude, not really.
00:23:59
Speaker
In the back of my mind, I'm kind of laughing, but... Do you ever confront them or do you ever like correct them and say, you know what, it was actually a shared effort. It was actually you know a team effort. There were some times where called this person out, but in private, on certain things that they took credit for or...
00:24:17
Speaker
things that they said they thought of, which I knew was not true because it's direct quote from someone and else. And I knew exactly where that speech came from. yeah And I confronted that person and they gave some sort of lame excuse.
00:24:29
Speaker
So it's ah it's it's a delicate balance, I think, for me as well, too, because i'm like, how often should I do this? And there's a certain point where, excuse my French, my ass gets tired of confronting these people who take too much credit.
00:24:44
Speaker
And i can I feel like there's a code, like you know when we talk about code switching them in a previous episode, when I hear other people other Asian folks talk about their team effort, I code switch that a bit and attribute a bit more work to them.
00:25:01
Speaker
To that person, the Asian folks. Oh, interesting. I feel like that that has to be a thing that is compensated for because I know if someone is taking too much of the credit, there's also probably someone else not taking enough the credit.
00:25:16
Speaker
And if they're not, and I think we demonstrated this, I think, in an episode with Mark Martell, right? Because I think both of you introduced yourself as, I'm this, this, this. I'm just a regular old person. I'm like, no, they are not. They are these amazing people who've worked in tech and industry and have published quite a bit in you know psychology and medicine.
00:25:37
Speaker
that's That was, i don't know if you felt that, but that was my mechanism of trying to re- counterbalancing the taking up this space the space, the credit giving or spotlighting folks who who I know have done the work, have put in the concerted effort, who have he put in the work, but not the expectation to receive the credit.
00:25:59
Speaker
I wish everyone do that. internal calibration just like you. and im like Yeah, I wish. This would make life so much easier, but it's not just up to me to do it, but it's also like we can do it for each other.
00:26:11
Speaker
me as an Asian professional, I can do it for other Asian professionals, especially might note if I notice that certain person doesn't take credit, even though he or she should be taking credit.
00:26:22
Speaker
And hopefully other people will do the same thing for me. and i remember what what you did, Doug. I remember. Yeah, and I appreciated that. Aww. Yeah. It's just too bad that we work with people who tend to do the exact opposite, who try and detract and take all the credit for themselves.
00:26:41
Speaker
And I think that that's where I, that that's the experience that I've had in in the corporate workplace. And i think we talked about this in one of our episodes. corporate workplaces. The sad thing is, you know, you have to self-promote. You have to be, this is how much how much value I bring to the team. This is how accomplished I am. You have to do that. And that's, those are the people who get promoted. Those are the people who get all the opportunities.
00:27:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I, ah let me add this, like I, I didn't learn this by myself. I'm i'm thinking about it. And the last time this happened to me, this was, this is my deputy guard director at Port Authority that every time I was around her and she met somebody new, she knew I didn't know this person.
00:27:23
Speaker
She would introduce me and kind of just kind of blow me up a bit here and there. And then she will end with, he's a real doctor. That's nice. You know? So like, I still remember that. so I'm like, you know what?
00:27:34
Speaker
how am i I ask myself and now, like how am I doing this for other people when I can? It's something that I consciously, maybe unconsciously think about because of all the things that we talked about in the system, right? The system there and and and within the people and how they behave.
00:27:51
Speaker
How do we counteract that? How do we rebalance the other aspect of the person?
00:28:05
Speaker
I wanted to give a shout out to Echo's dissertation, and I'm sure we'll talk more about this in one of our future episodes. But for a listeners out there who are thinking, you know, if I work hard, I show and demonstrate my technical competence or whatever competence I'm good at at work, that's going to speak for itself.
00:28:22
Speaker
And we're here to tell you that, and unfortunately, it's not that way. Even if you are perceived to be highly competent, smart, intelligent, technically competent, that doesn't always translate to leadership potential or even promotion.
00:28:36
Speaker
I mean, this is a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of us out there who think if I, you know, keep my head down, do the work, then people are going to notice. And that's not the case. You have to self promote and you have to have others who promote you and bring you along with them.
00:28:50
Speaker
Echo, you're smiling. I'm smiling so because it's also sad because it's not only happening to the roles that once you pass that technical competence, you check that off,
Exploring Identity and the Concept of 'Home'
00:29:01
Speaker
then it's fine. But those are also the roles that really need technical competence like because that's how we set the scenarios to be.
00:29:09
Speaker
And unfortunately, like sometimes like when people are looking for leaders, they're not looking on that front. That's just something that we still all need to think about and work on.
00:29:20
Speaker
So hard workers, you got to play too. You have to play. You have to own up to your success. Don't be ashamed or don't be embarrassed when people celebrate your accomplishments. Just own it, accept it.
00:29:33
Speaker
And I think that's so what I'm going to do too. Because my first initial reaction, whenever someone celebrates what I did or points to an accomplishment, I'm just like, oh, you know, it was a team effort. But think I'm going to say, you know what?
00:29:44
Speaker
Yeah, that was me. We should role play that, like to the extreme. You know what i mean? Yeah. I think we should have an episode where we we say, it was me, and then the role that you're supposed to play is you're supposed to talk yourself up and say that you did everything.
00:30:01
Speaker
I'm ridiculous doing it, but it's practice doing it. I feel like we should have an episode just on that. Jenny did this, this, and this, and you got to say, yeah, that was told me. I'm a bad, yeah. I'm a rock star. Yeah, that was me.
00:30:14
Speaker
And Doug, as we were talking, i do think about that a um that's a section that all the either Asian leadership development programs should have that training. How to talk about your own accomplishments and taking the place. Yes.
00:30:29
Speaker
Yes, and do it for other Asians yeah because no one else is going to do it for us. Maybe we might have, you know, an ally here and there. you know, I've had certainly has had non-Asian folks who really spotlighted their accomplishments that I did. And I'm sure you guys too, but they are few and far between. There's the asshole who likes to suck up all the energy and take up all the credit.
00:30:50
Speaker
And I think the ratio is like one to 10. So for every good person, there are like 10, you know, people who just suck the energy out of the room and and your accomplishments as well. So we just have to train ourselves and others to do this hard work.
00:31:03
Speaker
I think part of it is I have been like, even like sometimes thought about like why there are some people can do this very naturally, like being like ally to other people. And also like, because for this person, they also need to have this, they need to be like vulnerable and first.
00:31:19
Speaker
And at the same time, they also They're confident in themselves. And I think a lot of people are not like that. Like they, you have to be confident and vulnerable enough that you can endorse other people.
00:31:32
Speaker
Like, I don't think there are that many people out there. So for those people who are courageous enough to do that, they also, they are the one that like have a big mind and a heart.
00:31:45
Speaker
Yeah. like well That was me. so That's all you. That was all me right here. I do have one question for you both as I was going through that.
00:31:56
Speaker
There was like a chapter later on, like talking about assimilation. I can't remember it's the permission to come home section there where they were asking like assimilation because I'm asking this because I do realize like so for me like I always thought like yes assimilation is part of me because I need to survive but also at the same time i don't have that baggage because my same baggage probably is a very wrong and strong word, but my parents are in Asia.
00:32:24
Speaker
Like they are, like I was born and raised in China and I know that's where my roots are. Like I i don't feel like ever I ever, will call myself American. So that's that's to me, like I feel like that's where like I see our experience have been different. But I'm just curious as you were reading through that, like what resonates with you? Like how much that you feel like this is a part that I thought about, but I really don't care at this point.
00:32:51
Speaker
Can I kind of reframe what you're you're asking? ah Yeah. Because this is something I was thinking about and it actually ties in with the the book title, Permission to Come Home. And the question I kind of had was, what is home?
00:33:03
Speaker
Not where is home, but what is home for me? Like I had a nonchalant answer like about 10 years ago. We actually kind of, you know, when you do the intro ah to other folks, like where is home, yada, yada.
00:33:13
Speaker
I answered what is home. And my answer was home is the place I just left. And I've been feeling that way for a long time. But I think lately, home for me is where I make it.
00:33:27
Speaker
And I've been thinking about it in the last few days more so. And for me, home is going to be where my mom is close, where I have access to good food, reliable shelter, and I'm able to give back to community, wherever that may be.
00:33:43
Speaker
And I think it doesn't matter where now at this point, because it's just where I can feel safe and where my mom would be and that's where home would be for me whether but you know if she wants to stay here or go elsewhere in New York and she's in Chicago right now but it's I still visit her pretty easily but you know if we were in separate countries I totally hear you and feel you on that echo I can't say I fully ah feel that because
00:34:19
Speaker
For me, it's a two-hour flight to see my mom, and it's a little bit easier. I can't imagine what it's like to actually be away for you know years at a time.
00:34:30
Speaker
know So for me permission to come home is the permission for me to answer what that is, to define what home is as something that I can attain and create for myself rather than my old answer of home is the place I just left.
00:34:49
Speaker
How about you? I mean, I think for me, home is where and what I make or make of it. Just because I've had a very unconventional life and upbringing.
00:35:02
Speaker
You lived in a lot of different places. Yeah, I lived in a lot of different places. And I wouldn't say like one place is home to me. Like D.C., I was born there, but I didn't really spend most of my childhood there.
00:35:15
Speaker
Boston, yes, I spent most of my, you know, say, most of my life there, like 15 plus years, but I'm not there anymore. And so it's not home to me now. And home to me is wherever I last slept last night.
00:35:28
Speaker
don't know. I think a home to me is like, it's an evolving thing. um And I say that as someone who in the past five years, I've lived in five different cities. So home is just where you make it. So I think that's how I view that whole question about permission to come home, permission to embrace who you are and where you fit in.
00:35:47
Speaker
What about you? Thank you for asking me because I think I said this at the beginning, like my definition home has changed quite significantly after reading this book.
00:35:58
Speaker
Like I really appreciate that perspective. I think Dr. Wang was defining home as the place where you can find safety, belonging, authenticity, and compassion.
00:36:11
Speaker
And to me, i was like, oh, that hits all the right spots that I feel like. I just had a hard time articulating what that is. I think she said it very well. In the past, I have always defined home as that's where you were born, that's how where you were brought up, and that's where your friends are, where your families are.
00:36:30
Speaker
That's so limited. That's so restrained by all the physical space. But home is really mental thing that I just started to realize and until like after reading this book.
00:36:42
Speaker
So yeah, to me, like absolutely. I think that's the place where I can find the most of authentic myself and feel the most welcome and accepted
Conclusion and Book Recommendation
00:36:51
Speaker
as a person. Of course, like you have to feel safe.
00:36:53
Speaker
And unfortunately, I do think New York City these days. New York City is actually the second city that I spend about most of my lifetime these days. But I just, yeah, I just don't feel like it's safe.
00:37:07
Speaker
But anyway, do think the home is somewhat like related to the mentalness, how we think about it and how we frame it. And I appreciate that perspective from this book.
00:37:17
Speaker
It's all in your mind. Home is where the heart is. Isn't there a book person? Something, yeah. Yeah, we're saying home is rather hard. Yeah, absolutely. Kind of cliched. Do we have a haiku to end our episode?
00:37:29
Speaker
We do. um And I honestly don't know how good this one is because there's so much that we have talked about in this episode. um But I'm going to try more actually. chat tip She tried permission to play, take up space, say no with grace, home is belonging.
00:37:48
Speaker
Oh, that's good. What was the prompt? Well, I did actually play around a little bit. Well, first I started with like, right as a haiku with all those topics that we have talked about.
00:37:59
Speaker
um And it has a few versions, but I do think it landed on the place where touch upon everything that we have talked about today. I'm actually, I do think the last one, like home is belonging is probably too narrow.
00:38:12
Speaker
For listeners, if you listen to what we have shared so far, you will have your own definition for home. Thank you so much for listening today. we highly recommend checking out this book for Asians and non-Asians alike.
00:38:24
Speaker
I think the book ah Permission to Come Home by Dr. Jenny Wong is an excellent book for anybody to read. It's a good self-exploration and a good way to kind of just reflect on your identity and what's important to you.
00:38:36
Speaker
So we will be back next month with another episode. Thank you so much for tuning in this month's episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. We'll catch you later. See ya.
00:38:46
Speaker
And that was totally her.
00:38:50
Speaker
Own it!