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Real talk with Leaders in the Field: Asians in IO Co-founders
52 Plays1 month ago
This week, we spoke to co-founders of Asians in IO Psychology, Alex Hsu and Dr. Shannon Cheng. Alex is a senior people analysts manager for a global people analytics team. Shannon is a scholar and practitioner whose research focuses on DEI in the workplace from a multilevel perspective, looking at interactions between the individual, interpersonal, organizational, and society as a whole.
Asians in IO Psychology’s mission is to empower Asians within the field of IO psychology. Their aim is to create greater awareness of the multifaceted Asian experience, and partner with allies to drive positive change in IO Psychology. For this interview, we wanted to better understand the people behind this group’s mission. Alex and Shannon talked about their personal experiences and their own identity as part of their drive to create this group. Our conversation then shifts to systemic vs. individual challenges, mentorship and community building, as well as biracial identity, leadership and representation — check out the podcast for all the details!
Check out Asians in IO Psychology!
https://www.linkedin.com/groups/9058893/
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guests
00:00:20
Speaker
I'm one of your co-hosts, Dook. I'm Echo. And I'm Jenny. Jenny, Echo. What's going on? It looks like we have two very special guests in the house, Dook.
00:00:31
Speaker
Yeah, we do. Yeah, today, we're going to continue our ongoing series about with conversations and leaders in the field.
Mission of Asians in IO
00:00:40
Speaker
And we actually have two out of the three co-founders of Asians and IO here with us today. Please welcome Alex Hsu and Shannon Chang. Welcome. Yay. We've heard so much about you. well I've heard so much about you, so I'm really excited to to pick your brains today. Yeah, I know. Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.
00:01:01
Speaker
Sorry, we don't have a canned audience, so it's just us cheering for you. on So let me do a quick intro of just Asians in IO, founded by Alex and and Shannon. This group's mission is to empower Asians within the field of IO psychology. They aim to create a greater awareness of the multifaceted experience of Asian and Asian Americans, to foster growth and development for our community, and to partner with allies that drive positive change in IO.
00:01:29
Speaker
kind of Very, really similar to what we do on the podcast too, which is actually a really great fit. I want to do a quick shout out to Rachel Hellish real quick because she actually introduced me to Asians in IO when I was working for the government, government agency.
Dook's Introduction to Asians in IO
00:01:46
Speaker
It allowed me actually to to reconnect with Vivian Wu and then connect to me with Shannon and Alex as well too.
00:01:53
Speaker
So let me do, ah yeah, and here's, I got a quick intro from both of them.
Alex Hsu's Background
00:01:57
Speaker
Alex Stu has his master's in IO from NYU. He's a senior people analytics manager for global people analytics and reporting team. He guides organization-wide strategies and initiatives by orchestrating the work that they do from data collection to engagement and to engagement work.
00:02:18
Speaker
In his spare time, Alex is a rugby player, a dancer, and an avid collector of animal facts. Alex, can you give us a quick animal fact? I can't ask about Komodo dragons a lot, which I feel like is actually pretty relevant to this. um So there's actually two that I think are kind of interesting.
00:02:37
Speaker
One is that they have a third eye on the top of their head that's used for detecting sunlight. It's called a parietal eye. So being cold-blooded animals, they you know need to thermoregulate using the sun. So that's why that adapted. But they're also slightly venomous. So their venom works by actually lowering their prey animal's kind of immune response. So they tend to get, they bite them and then they tend to get sick. So they follow them as they kind of you know after the initial attack and then we'll kind of wait for them to get weaker before they go in and you know finish their prey off and start eating. So I think those are two interesting facts. I did not know that.
00:03:20
Speaker
the echo did
00:03:24
Speaker
I would be more surprised if any of you do. Oh my gosh. And I put them on the spot too. All right. Let me continue with the intro. We also have Shannon Chang
Shannon Chang's Background
00:03:35
Speaker
here. She has her PhD in IO psychology from Rice University. Her research has focused on DEI in the workplace from a multi ah-level perspective, looking at the interaction between individuals in a personal organizational and societal as a whole in her consulting work. She's helped clients with org design, culture, inclusion, and team development. In the near future, she'll be joining another research team in Houston, a nonprofit-based organization. We'll let her talk more about that at a later point.
00:04:10
Speaker
In her free time, Shannon enjoys exploring local restaurants and bookstores, running and doing yoga and finding new stickers to add to her water bottle. Shannon, do you have a random animal fact that you can give us that could match match Alex's? but I'm sure Alex has many more to share.
00:04:38
Speaker
Okay, we'll we'll probably we'll try to get those into podcasts throughout the throughout the rest of the show. All right, well, those are the two of the three co-founders of Asians in IO. Alex and Shannon, is there anything else you'd like our listeners to know about you? I think that, you know, overall, we're just excited to be here.
Post-2020 Identity Conversations
00:04:55
Speaker
I think that podcasts like these are important and that you know, since 2020 in particular, there's been kind of a change in how the Asian community or Asian community in America talks about a lot of these issues. And I think a lot of these conversations are occurring more at scale and people are more willing to talk about them. So, you know, and thank you for doing this work. We appreciate it. And I think it's really important to, you know, make people realize that we share a lot of commonalities in our experiences, regardless of which particular ethnicity or country demographic we come from.
00:05:28
Speaker
Yeah. And I guess just to echo that, I mean, we talked about this a little bit before, but we were so excited when we found out about your podcast. um I know you all have been doing this for I think about two years now um and Asians in IO has been around for about three years. And yeah, I think it's just always so exciting to find other people who are doing similar work and being able to amplify each other. So really, really excited to to have this opportunity. And I've started listening to some more of your podcast episodes and Just, yeah, it was super cool to see all the different topics that you all have covered. Um, I would say intro wise, at least for me, and we can get a little bit more into this later too. Like I've lived in Houston and I've lived here for almost two decades now. It's very diverse. Um, but before that, I actually spent most of my childhood in Indiana where I was like one of two Asian kids in my class. And I feel like that really shaped.
00:06:24
Speaker
my personal experience early on with my Asian identity and just kind of like how I felt about it, i.e. not great when I was younger. And it wasn't until, right, 2020, 2021 where, you know, COVID was happening, the murder of George Floyd happened, and for me personally, I was like, okay, kind of starting to reclaim my Asian identity and really think about what it meant for me to be Asian in America specifically.
00:06:53
Speaker
And then ultimately it pushed me to try to find greater community and find Alex, right? We didn't know each other beforehand and talk about right starting Asians in IO. And then for me, it's really cool, right? Three years later, four years later to be in this space, to be talking with you all about these issues as well.
Founding Asians in IO
00:07:14
Speaker
How did you guys meet?
00:07:15
Speaker
like I mean, you're down in Texas. Before that, you were in Indiana. Now I had i grew up in in in Iowa myself, but I met Echo and Jenny in New York. How did you, Alex and Shannon, how did you guys meet?
00:07:31
Speaker
Actually, Macy Cheeks, who's one of the co-founders of Blackstone IO, is a former co-worker of mine. So when she created Blackstone IO, I started to realize, oh, we don't have these affinity groups within the IO space. here We're supposed to be covering DEI related issues. So in 2020, when some of the issues were coming to a head for our community,
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, I'd been playing around with the idea of maybe somebody should start this. And then towards the issue of owning your Asian identity as somebody who's half that's kind of further, it's it's much harder for me to own that part in some ways because I'm not only half model minority, I'm half white, right? So half model, well. So I wasn't sure if I was the right person, but at that point I was like, somebody needs to do something. like We need to organize around this. I think that more people need to talk to about this, especially in our field with relation to work. And then Macy had told me that somebody else was looking, had contacted her. and
00:08:29
Speaker
Looking to start up the organization and that was Shannon. So that's how we got to touch kind of quick meeting and then quickly Decided yeah, I think I can work with this person and get this thing off the ground So, you know pretty pretty quick from from those turnarounds and really appreciative of you know blacks and Ios Allyship with that in order to put us together so that we can start form this group It's so interesting to see how that gets inspired by there's another affinity group in the IO community. Like how was your, um I would say like and the process to set this up, especially thinking about some of the goals that you all are trying to achieve and how do your sell how do you see this community is similar or different from the Black in IO?
Challenges of Starting an Organization
00:09:16
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like from a setup,
00:09:19
Speaker
process Alex, I'm curious how you felt about it. I do think for the both of us, we kind of both felt like, okay, really inspired by groups like Flats and IO, Latinos and IO, that they existed. And we wanted to, at least for me, I was like, does this exist for Asians and IO? Found out it didn't exist. And then I think Alex and I both felt strongly enough that we were like, okay, we want to start this. But also starting an organization from the ground up is quite overwhelming, right? Like where do you start?
00:09:48
Speaker
How do you kind of outline what your goals are, what you are trying to do? How do you kind of, you know, everything that we do is volunteer based. How do you set something up that feels sustainable and doable without trying to do everything under the sun as well? Um, so I think, uh, for us, when we initially started the organization and we had created kind of a, a document outlining, right? Some like our, um, the goals, how we were going to try to do it. But I think.
00:10:16
Speaker
else like that has also evolved over the past few years as well. But that's, I think, what we initially tried to do, tried to put some structure to it as well, had kind of a leadership team have started kind of getting more volunteers as well. But I would definitely say we're still kind of figuring it out as we go. And, you know, trying to do knowledge sharing with groups like Flaxenio and i own Latinos in IO. And I think all of us have similarities echo to your point.
00:10:45
Speaker
of what we're trying to do, how we're bringing folks together, um but then also, you know, have distinct things that we're doing as well. I think that we quickly realized that, and this was also generated from my personal and professional experiences at the time too, where it was people were not well equipped to talk about Asian issues when it came to DEI. I thought that much on our field were aware of even the model minority myth. And I quickly found myself like just educating people and bringing awareness to model minority of it. So I had originally hoped to get to more advanced topics and theoreticals about like, you know, what could we do to better support the Asian population at work? You know, how does how does indirect communication show up? And does that have different advantages than the more direct communication style that's usually valued by Western context and a special workplace?
Educating on DEI Issues
00:11:40
Speaker
but I found myself just repeating those issues over and over again and you know it's part of the awareness play and part of the role and responsibility we assume to this capacity but just bringing that basic awareness to like yeah Asians do have adverse impacts when it comes to most procedures and actually it's worse than other demographics because people aren't even aware of it what can we do to support our own population when we start talking about these things and within IO itself you know A few times I had seen things referring to underrepresented minorities and it's like well that's to the exclusion of Asians which are we well represented here I don't necessarily think that that's the case so that that was.
00:12:23
Speaker
interesting and kind of started focusing with some of what we were attempting to I think what we found to be our biggest value add is just starting to build some sense of community, which is in large part thanks to Shannon's efforts and, you know, organizing around the newsletter, you know, duck when you say It's exciting to meet you. We've heard so much about you. I'm like, i how did did you hear about me still? so And I've had people coming up to me at previous SIOPs being like, oh yeah, like thank you for doing this thing. And I'm like, i know have we met before? So I'm still kind of like surprised when I hear those things, to be honest. you know It's nice to know that the work is kind of
00:13:01
Speaker
gone beyond our own you know personal representation of our group,
00:13:22
Speaker
Totally with you. um Sometimes when we talk about, or when underrepresented groups have talked about, Asians aren't brought up. Like sometimes the case may be that Asians are overrepresented or that there isn't enough Asians to even be represented. And we actually don't have a voice in it. And sometimes it's unfortunate because like you know then whoever the Asian person there is has been has to then educate everyone else about like Alex, you mentioned the model minority myth and other barriers that Asian and Asian Americans have to go through in the workplace.
00:13:55
Speaker
And for us, you this podcast is one of our you platform for us to talk about the research that's done, kind of the historical context that has occurred. And Alex, you mentioned 2020 and the you know some of the horrific events that happened with George Floyd and the violence against um Asian women down in Atlanta and I think the elderly as well too but some of this stuff has actually been happening for quite a while historically and it just happens to be repeating and I think this time we actually have an opportunity to get on our platforms right whether it be your platform or our platform to really talk about this and really to address it and to let people know we're here.
00:14:38
Speaker
a lot of that resonates too because, you know, when I was in graduate school, I was studying DEI in the workplace and kind of going back to kind of like how my previous experiences had shaped my identity and also my, my work and my research. Like I was always hesitant to study Asian issues in the workplace. I think for a number of reasons, right? One, I think I bought into some of that model minority myth, right? I'm believing that Yeah, Asians are mostly doing well. There are so many other issues in the workplace. And I think those are very important. They do need to be focused on. But I think then later on, post-2020, I think it was definitely a push for me personally to then understand. It's like, oh, OK, can't just not think about this, or basically make myself invisible. Other people already precede that and find that.
00:15:34
Speaker
What are ways that I can actually engage in this and think about also too, how do we relate to and interact with other racial groups? Where do we fit in? How do we actually engage, build solidarity, build allyship, all of those things as well. I want to ask about something that you just talked about, which is the deprioritization of our own needs. What are some like words of wisdom you could tell someone who's maybe not there yet. So an Asian person, whether you're biracial Asian, whether you're a full Asian, whatever, who feels like, I can't really talk about myself as a racial minority because I feel guilty. Like what, how do we talk to people like that? You know, when they're deprioritizing their own identity and saying, okay, other people should talk, give it to other groups,
Prioritizing Asian Identity
00:16:20
Speaker
not us. Yeah. I feel like for me, I'll super curious about your thoughts as well. But I think it resonates especially as an Asian woman.
00:16:28
Speaker
as well of I think I am continuing to reteach myself basically how to prioritize my needs and how to speak up for myself and how to take up space. As far as advice, one of the things that I feel like helped me a lot was actually reading this book called Permission to Come Home by Dr. Jenny Wang because she talks about, it's basically a book about Asian Americans and mental health, but I think it's so much broader than that.
00:16:56
Speaker
in just helping a lot of Asian Americans better understand, right? We were talking about that context of both our upbringings, our families, like all these different things that have shaped us, how we think, how we behave. And I really liked that some of the chapters basically are each titled like permission to blank. So it's things like permission to feel, permission to take up space, permission to speak up, those types of things that I feel like for me,
00:17:26
Speaker
helped me realize what I was doing in different spaces and then be like, okay, I know it's going to be uncomfortable, but I'm gonna try in different spaces, either in my personal life or my professional life, where I'm just gonna try to take up space, see what that feels like for me, making myself a little bit uncomfortable, keep trying that just because I know, right, it is important for me. And then balancing that, right, with like,
00:17:52
Speaker
Oh, I know other people also, right? Especially other marginalized groups also feel like they haven't been able to take up space, right? In this kind of white-dominated, male-dominated world. So how can I also create space for others as well? What was it called? We have to put that in the link of our um episode. Highly recommend. It's called Permission to Come Home by Jenny Wang.
00:18:16
Speaker
I think I have the audio book. It's on my cue to listen to. I think she has an IG account too, which she has like snippets of it. And there's a lot of really good sage advice from Dr. Jenny Wang about just giving yourself permission to give you give yourself that space. Yeah, I think Shannon.
00:18:35
Speaker
said it pretty well I think in the capacity like there's various different ways we can approach this right I think it's it's pretty prevalent in our community but a lot of other people outside our community also feel imposter syndrome which I think is like pretty much like an identical way to talk about it.
00:18:52
Speaker
Now there's obviously the main difference in that are you being treated based off your demographic characteristics and is that like further exasperating what you're feeling or how you're feeling imposter syndrome. But I think that do both to a number of personality characteristics and things that I was mulling over when I kind of assumed this role.
00:19:14
Speaker
as a co-founder in Asians.io, the way of that I approach it is through my work, it's kind of you know analytics is analytics. There's some sort of best outcome or like some sort of generally correct outcome. um you know We all work with messy data, sure, in the space. but generally I can say that something is right or is wrong and then um speaking about statistics and confidence intervals like you know talk about the probabilities associated with it right like I know that maybe there's a chance that I'm wrong but at least I'm stating it in some sort of I'm hedging it against scientific best practice but when it comes up to taking space there's there's been a couple things that have helped me and it's kind of like I realized that in this role because I've elected to
00:19:59
Speaker
speak up for my community by not taking up space. I'm actually doing a disservice for the community. I really hate like actually and Shannon and I both have trouble with this probably because you know cultural outbringings like like I don't mind being in the spotlight but I hate coming across or having the potential to come across as narcissistic.
00:20:18
Speaker
So taking up space becomes really difficult in certain ways, unless I also justify it behind if I don't take up space to talk about these issues and kind of get it out there, then generally other people from a similar demographic will suffer by not having less people aware of these issues, etc. So I've kind of like, you know, use the rules of like, what's culturally acceptable to then say,
00:20:41
Speaker
Now, if I don't do this, then I'm also not helping my community. And then, you know, I'm actually serving a net negative and I'm kind of being weak in a way. So I've kind of changed the whole logic in the formula to be, you know, I can be an independent actor that can help my community, not, you know, I am being full of myself by taking this space. um So that's one of the things that helps that particular thing.
00:21:07
Speaker
But the other thing that I think is interesting and you know all the research backs up what Shannon was saying as well, like Asian women are the least likely to reach C-level executive positions when you look at the statistics. And then some of the you know role models of my life, in particular I think of my aunt who was a pediatric heart doctor for Montefiore,
00:21:30
Speaker
she and actually Vivian Wu said something similar as well but it's kind of like I need to go in and kind of be aggressive so people will pay attention to me in order to combat some of those stereotypes so like if the meek and docile thing come off then the way the negate that is just immediately interrupt that perception now that has other certain negative drawbacks at first but if you're able to handle that type of thing, then maybe that is the best way to kind of better take up space or not be ignored at the very least. And then you can work from that basis. You know, I think that that's one of those things where the research isn't quite there yet. Like, is that a best practice or not? And I'm not really sure. And I think that's one of the reasons that both talking about it and having communities where we can talk amongst ourselves is important. Yeah, I feel like that's really interesting.
00:22:19
Speaker
Because Alex, I remember us talking about right that that advice, right especially for Asian women. It's like, OK, we know the stereotype of you know maybe being less assertive, you know all these different things. and And I remember that hearing that and being like, I don't know if that would work for me. like It feels so unnatural.
00:22:40
Speaker
And also for people who just generally know me, I think, yeah, it would come off as abrasive. It's just so antithetical to who I am. And so I think a lot of the times it is also finding what works best for you. I have definitely had to work on in the workplace, finding ways to be more assertive, right? Because I know that it is really easy for me to stay quiet in a meeting or to kind of defer to other people. So how are ways that I can be more assertive, but also doing it in a way that feels comfortable and still true to myself. I did some research on kind of those like stereotypes and how we combat stereotypes. And I feel like Alex, to your your point, there isn't necessarily, I think we wish there was like a best practice or or an easy answer, but I think oftentimes it's like the classic academic and consultant answer of it depends. um And I do think that is true in the in this case.
00:23:36
Speaker
And I also want to follow up and clarify on that particular point. You know, what is within an individual's control? And is that a best practice? And it shouldn't have to be the case that people have to engage in these behaviors that are maybe not true to themselves, but doesn't help them circumvent certain barriers that we know that they're experiencing right now and isn't a potential tool. And I think it's pretty critical to differentiate those two things. So I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer. And I'm not saying that every individual should have to go and do this, but maybe it is a potential solution. Again,
00:24:06
Speaker
I think there's research that needs to be done here. Oh my gosh you guys are huge nerds. It takes one to know one. It depends on the context. It depends on the individual differences.
00:24:21
Speaker
of love What you have brought up earlier, like I recently just had this feedback session because we just had an AR session, which is our annual review session. And kid you are not, I'm getting feedback as Echo is not being assertive enough.
00:24:40
Speaker
and I'm like, oh my gosh, should I add someone who actually study and research on this topic? And this is really happening in front of my face. And how I actually went piece with it, um I did like a coaching session a couple of weeks ago where the coach asked me to do a motivation assessment. It's ah it's a tool called like a fingerprint for success.
00:25:06
Speaker
By the way, I'm not getting any of the promotion um associated with that. um And one thing that got me like very interesting is I'm super high on alternatives and I'm super high on like um don't think there should be a rule that guided by myself or I shouldn't be ruled by certain process either and I firmly believe everyone should have their own opinions on things and when I unpack that with my coach and the coach was like in by the way I was actually really lower on the assertiveness based on whatever the definition they have so this is self-report data
00:25:49
Speaker
and that being said and or assessment that got me thinking like i think yeah the the things behind like Asians being assertive or not being assertive, I think there's a deeper things, whether this is like a cultural thing, whether this is an upbringing thing, or whether this is just someone generally believing in their value or this is someone's motivation. I think there's something deeper that we can go into it, just like, rather than just saying, hey, Asians are not being assertive enough. So
00:26:21
Speaker
All of this conversation just gave me super excited because I think we're talking about what is the similar mindset there. um Yeah, what you shared just got me thinking like, how can we also be at peace and be comfortable with who we are?
00:26:42
Speaker
Echo, as we were talking as well, it made me think I was like, we should do like a a workshop or, or something with, with Asians and IO on this topic. And Alex, I feel like we had talked about that a while ago, but this conversation really made me think of, like, yeah, we should, we should do that. Yeah. Speaking of events and activities, I'm curious, I know like, um, Asian and IO community has exist a forum about three years now like what was the things that excites you the most and what are the things you feel like maybe sometimes next time we will rethink about that yeah it's a good question i mean i feel like being i think especially coming out of covid era right
00:27:28
Speaker
doing all of our in-person events at SIOP, as Alex had kind of alluded to, have been really meaningful for us just to be able to be in person with folks who are excited about Asians and I know and to have, you know, um have people make connections in real time. And we see that happen, have people come up to us and tell us how meaningful um Asians and IO is to us I think that for us has been really meaningful We'll continue to do that and then we've also right throughout the year done different connectivity events or professional development events like Sophie Kay who's one of our other leadership members right now helped do like ah a Resume workshop right that people seem to really get a lot out of so I think continuing to do those events We're really excited about I think
00:28:19
Speaker
for your question around maybe something that we want to continue to think about, maybe how we might do it differently is probably our mentorship program. We started that pretty early on, um but honestly, one of the things that I think has been really interesting is that we have a lot of energy from probably our earlier 10-year colleagues, a lot of students, right, who are really excited to be part of this community and and make all these connections. And I mean, I think this is a problem across the board for different marginalized groups, but finding those mentors, right? And finding, I mean, all, everyone's really busy, but being able to have, right, like to match that energy that we're seeing from our younger 10 year folks, and being able to connect them with people who have that greater experience.
00:29:08
Speaker
um But yeah, so I think we're still trying to kind of figure that out. We've talked about, you know, it's like, oh, can we actually also leverage right that energy and be able to do more knowledge sharing, maybe do some peer coaching or peer mentoring as well. So those are some of the things I think we're still playing around with and and thinking about.
00:29:29
Speaker
Yeah, and those are those are all like really important things that we've been mulling over considering how to optimize etc. But, you know, thinking back to when we first started talking I think one of the interesting things is that Shannon and I were often talking about at first during the first couple meetings just what intervention X is going to result in outcome Y, you know, how many people are going to help with that. I think we quickly realized over time, it's like, Hey, it's actually like really sobering and empowering to realize how many of us experienced had similar life experiences, and we're figuring out how to navigate them, not only as people that were doing DEI related work, but also as individuals who had been like,
00:30:17
Speaker
experiencing particular issues in common and just realizing hey actually this is a wider scale problem and we're just not well equipped to talk about it as a community because you know maybe our communities just aren't as prone to talking about these issues and haven't been for a while. To what you were saying earlier before it's like a lot of these things have been happening for a long period of time but I think our communities haven't necessarily been the best equipped to talk about them partly due to cultural preferences like My grandparents, for example, were never particularly good about talking about some of the experiences they had growing up and they often had to be relayed to me from my dad instead, you know, having been like, yeah, my grandpa, your grandpa went through this experience at one point when he both came over and this is, you know, like what the outcome was. and
00:31:05
Speaker
you know, being able to talk about that and realize, hey, there's just more of us that are having these issues probably outside our field as well. Like we know that. And that sense of like camaraderie and community, I guess I come out, came out of it. And I think that can't be overstated enough that just having other people that have similar experiences is in itself helpful.
00:31:28
Speaker
Alex, I'm gonna push back on that just a little bit because I feel like for for my mom who's you know who came over here with four children as an immigrant, she didn't have any problems saying stuff within the family right in Vietnamese. She just couldn't articulate it in English. So I would say like I think there have been people, there have been leaders but ah talking about this and bringing this up. Maybe they just didn't have the platform to really ah ah to get that audience out there.
00:31:57
Speaker
There is something I actually want to transition us back to because I'm thinking about possibly the the stereotypes, the microaggressions that are out there right at the systemic level. right And how we were talking about the things that we would do could be at the individual level. right How one person can change one of the these things and then maybe not be perceived as that. But then maybe there's still that perception of this person's the exception.
00:32:24
Speaker
I'm going to hold this person to the exception, but I'm still going to hold this stereotype that Asians are possibly not assertive or quiet or are docile. I guess my question to you all is that how do you take into consideration you know the individual, the group versus the system level, a work that's out there and ingrate that in. And then my other question is it, why is it incumbent upon us to change people's minds when the perception about us is incorrect?
00:32:58
Speaker
Yeah, really good question.
Need for Systemic Change
00:33:00
Speaker
And I feel like so many different parts. One thing that I want to touch on right away is that it's actually related to, I think, Alex and Jeff, as you were talking about, kind of the cultural preferences or having the platform, right? I think it ties to the systemic, but I, what came up for me is that I think the other thing that is hard is just how, right? Like what we learn.
00:33:23
Speaker
And what we are ingrained with so thinking about what what's in our history books right what we learn in school like I'm continuing to learn so much about, you know, let's say for Asians and many Asian immigrants right like I didn't know a lot of the kind of laws with respect to immigration are the ways in which, right, in America, we have continuously tried to keep people out, right? And so I think one is like, yeah, at the systemic level, it's like, okay, I mean, we see, right, it's like, okay, how different governments are trying to ban
Role of Allies in Representation
00:33:59
Speaker
books, right? Or are trying to dictate what we are learning, what kids are learning in schools.
00:34:05
Speaker
I think the other piece around kind of that broader, more systemic level of perceptions, I think a lot about like media representation as well. And how, you know, I think over the past few years, we have seen increase in, let's say specifically Asian representation in media, which has been really exciting to see. yeah um But also it's like, how do we keep that momentum going? How do we keep that momentum going for other ah groups as well?
00:34:32
Speaker
And then I think drop to your second question around why is it incumbent in us on us, I think her one kind of like maybe tying a little bit back to what Alex was saying is that it's like, if we don't speak up for ourselves, like who will, right? and And being like, it is important for us to take up that space for ourselves. And it is important to have allies who are also advocating for us, right? If we think about the the media of representation,
00:35:02
Speaker
It's like, oh, how do these filmmakers or people who are trying to make these stories get those opportunities if they're not at the table already? Like people have to help and create a seat at the table for us and for others. Yeah.
00:35:17
Speaker
It's obviously a multifaceted problem that you can't completely disentangle one thing from the other, right? But before we before we go on, it's like, first, thanks, Doug, for pushing back. And I think that's one of the things that's like really interesting, too. it's like So I can talk about my experiences, and I can talk about the research for it. And then you know I can talk about like Chinese cultural differences. And like one of the few things that like I know from like a research standpoint is, like Vietnamese background is supposedly more assertive than Chinese background. So is there that pushback because of cultural differences? Is it individual differences, right? It's nature versus nurturing. You can't fully disentangle all these things. So and anything that I say, I think I have to, you know, and I think it's important to caveat it in these conversations.
00:36:02
Speaker
is from my personal experiences with these things, and I can tie it back to research, sure, but I think one of the difficulties, and you had spoken about this earlier, is separating our work, I think, from Blacks in IO and Latinos in IO,
00:36:18
Speaker
is that there are so many different ethnicities and countries and religions that fall into the Asian. dia yes for yeah And to be able to talk to all of them is virtually impossible. Like for blacks in the US, there's obviously some pretty significant shared history of treatment.
00:36:38
Speaker
And that's not to say that they're all uniform either, but you know, with the highest immigrant rate, right? It's like our racial category is like so different and foreign. And and so when we're talking about the the system and individual level thing, that actually also reminded me of like, I was watching the brother's son on Netflix, which I was talking about how like, one brother is basically, it's a comedy, right? It's not a particularly good piece of media, but it was fun. I really liked it.
00:37:08
Speaker
And one of the things that I liked was some of the representation, but I was actually watching it with somebody of Filipino descent and they had a whole scene where the somebody is trying to flex on another party, Michelle Yeoh in this case, and brings out a metal teapot with a Lipton teabag. And then when she flips the tables on them, she says, you know, bring me out the good stuff. And then it's a porcelain teapot with you know presumably like the leaves instead, right?
00:37:35
Speaker
And that Filipino friend, I asked them, I was like, do you understand what's happening here? And she didn't understand the significance of that. So it's like, that's one of those things to where it's like, again, not a monolith, it's the tea cultures are like completely different. So that system level thing that happened, like being represented in media,
00:37:58
Speaker
allows more of us to talk about our various individual experiences and share more of our cultures with other people because there's something that's more topical to everybody that everybody can access. So I think that's like why awareness is is super important but also as an individual this one's you know really This one's taken me a lot, again, to step up into owning Asian identity too, but it's kind of like, there's been a lot of opportunities where because I pass, you know, people say something in my presence that they wouldn't say in the presence of somebody that they considered Asian. So that's what that's about. Ooh. Could you share some examples? Well, I think the most relevant actually to the workplace, most relevant to the workplace is that I've gone in for multiple interviews, like within our HR field, right?
00:38:46
Speaker
and then basically got something to the effect of you are different than what we were expecting because I have an undergrad degree in behavioral neuroscience and then I went to and NYU for grad school which has a pretty large Asian population right so I think that people were expecting me to be a foreign immigrant basically and then I come in and you know ah Not to humble brag, but I don't look particularly Asian. I'm 6'1", I'm 200 pounds, I've got curly hair. So they, you know, will say my name and they look at me all the other Asians like waiting in the room. And then I'm the one who stands up and they're like, what's happening here? Like, I don't get it. um
00:39:29
Speaker
So that's just one of those examples where it's like when I heard those things behind doors and I'd be like you know that's not I would have to basically stand up and be like the that's not really acceptable. It's like sometimes I wouldn't even tell them that I was Asian but and honestly sometimes that's helpful too because they think that somebody else is checking them on their biases that's from their same demographic. So I can choose when to deploy it, but I've never kept quiet when it's been done in my presence. So that's been a particular thing that's been interesting. And basically, I don't feel like I have a choice when those situations occur. And it's partly because my siblings don't have a choice when it occurs to you. They appear much more ethnically ambiguous than I do. say least So, you know, I feel like it's a personal responsibility to speak up when those
00:40:31
Speaker
And it is funny too, because actually when Alex and I first met, I think we initially corresponded right via email. And so actually, it's like, yeah, when when we first talked, I think on zoom, I was a little surprised, you know, and I think it's been I think with Asians and IO, one of the things I've appreciated the most as well is just hearing about, you know, and we talk about wanting to raise awareness of the multifaceted Asian experience for others, but it it was also been very eyeopening even just for me, right? To hear different experiences as well. The one other thing I do want to also say is that Alex you had mentioned, right, for for Asians, we have like all this expansive,
00:41:15
Speaker
ah diversity with Asian diaspora and everything. I will say that I do think the other thing that I have learned is, for example, within the Black experience of the Latino experience, it is also I think even more diverse than we recognized for black Americans in the U.S., there are folks who came over right because of the slave trade. But there are also many black immigrants right who have very different experiences, but I think we commonly lump everyone to together. And so I think that is also part of right our allyship and solidarity with them to continue pushing against that assumption as well.
00:41:51
Speaker
And it's that's one of the trickiest things I think part like about doing this work. It's like, how do we talk about ourselves and others as groupings to establish those commonalities and like find out the things that need to be worked on generally, but without over assuming, you know lumping everybody together too and then disentangling. And that's one of those things where it's like, yes, that that clarification is really important. And I know that, but sometimes when I'm speaking, if I'm speaking to somebody new, especially too, they may not know that I know that too. So it's like, that's it's one of those things where it's like very difficult to tread in this area sometimes um I can see where sometimes people say like oh yeah like DEI is like too politically correct and it's not it's not that it's sometimes you have to worry about like the intent of the person and what they're trying to accomplish and I find that one of the the trickiest parts because I'm like yeah I'm trying to support everybody I like care about who you are as an individual and trying to remove any barriers to you that may be based off demographic characteristics and it's
00:42:51
Speaker
Finding that fine line, I think that Janet is honestly much better at walking that and speaking that line than I am sometimes. I'm like, I may have put my foot in my mouth with that one, and it wasn't because of intent or lack of knowledge. It's just like, wow, I really did not craft that particularly right in this case. It is tricky, isn't it, to to have to navigate like that and know that.
00:43:15
Speaker
We're trying to be inclusive, but we know that Asians in general, that's 50% of the world's population.
Diversity within Asian Communities
00:43:24
Speaker
that's That's hard to ah just you know put it out there and say, yeah, if it's all these groups, I'm like, well, not necessarily, right? So I think even for us, I think we've talked about it, right? ah Jenny an echo and Echo, we know that in a way, maybe we represent like Southeast Asians, East Asians, and whatnot, but we know there are many other groups that are missing. and Can we get everybody on board? Well, we're going to try our best. you know But we know that there may be some um blind sides. And that's where other groups can come in, other folks can come in, other people can stand up and lead and bring their um knowledge and thoughts and to share that with us and to bring us more awareness. And I think it's a beautiful thing.
00:44:12
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like it so much of it is just being open to learn from. Working with Alex working with ellers and then also coming into my home, again, being an Asian woman, being maybe a little bit more hesitant to speak up, right? And and becoming more comfortable and being like, okay, maybe this is a moment in which I should push back a little bit more or be willing to speak my mind and how I how i perceive these. That's like, when I think about that one too, about you know demographics that we leave out or how so hard it is to speak to universality and stuff like that. Again, growing up as German, Chinese,
00:44:52
Speaker
It's like there's not really a whole lot of other media that were people that I can talk to about that. It's pretty much just my siblings and I. So I think that my brother put it pretty well when he was writing his college essays. Like I realized that we were probably a little bit different even in the American context, like when I was using chopsticks to eat bratwurst. And it's like, that's, you know, that's a little bit of like, a oh, this is kind of different for us.
00:45:19
Speaker
cha succeed bra horses I actually took some German ah in high school and every time somebody would ask me, hey Joe, why are you taking German? I didn't want to tell them like, hey, my friends took French and Spanish in seventh grade and I'm like, I would be like two years behind if I started high school. I told them I was going to be a German-Vietnamese translator.
00:45:45
Speaker
i lost ah This is probably the the last of a question from this, because I know we're about to end today. But Alex, I'm just curious about that identity that you just brought up, like biracial identity itself. like so You also mentioned like how how unique that has been for you and your family and your siblings. Does the Asian IO community in also
00:46:15
Speaker
respond to that in ah in a you know reverse way because you were kind of like speak up and trying to do this for the Asian community, but also at the same time, do you also feel like that gets you more of a connection and you see more of a common ground from people with probably more similar background? I think that, and so one of the things that I think is interesting for a field to contemplate, right, is that as the US more rapidly diversifies, right? Actually one of the fastest growing racial groups is two or more races.
00:46:47
Speaker
And this has some pretty interesting connotations too, right? Because pretty much all of our analytics and all the ways that we process DEI, especially from like a legal defensibility standpoint, is based off one group. Last I checked, this was still true when I was working at that old firm. But basically, no eo or no yeah no EEOC cases, I think, were basically an OFCCP cases which regulate affirmative action plans.
00:47:15
Speaker
were brought up on the basis of two or more races as a protected class. So basically it's written so that they're protected but it's like really like For me, for example, do I count as one person towards one group of my choosing? Or I don't really identify that way. I do truly identify as two or more racism. So do I count as half a point towards each of the protected classes in that case, if I have multiple? um you know Mathematically, it doesn't really make sense because race as a construct doesn't always make sense.
00:47:48
Speaker
uh but there's also kind of like practically if we need to defend people who are and having my family as individuals in my family or you know my parents experienced uh you know discrimination for being a biracial uh cover marriage right um and then us as individuals like i've been told that i'm a fake asian before and stuff like that which is and I kind of agree to some extent with being whitewashed because my grandparents Americanized us. It's not because I don't own the Chinese heritage or certain cultural aspects of it. It's just like, you know i know't I'm not fluent in Chinese, right? And I never will be at this point because of how I'm choosing to prioritize certain things. but um So that presents a lot of complications that we have not thought about in the DEI space just because it's like, yeah how do you talk about these things?
00:48:42
Speaker
in mass, right? You can't because they're unique between individuals and individual families at that point. But within the Asians in IO context, you know, I don't think that it's it's a little bit of survivorship bias. I think that it's helped me in certain capacities, or it's like I and i have said, you know, i I know I navigate the world differently than probably a lot of other people in this community, and I try to say that outright.
00:49:04
Speaker
if anybody disagreed with that or disagreed that I should be in this position, it's probably survivorship bias because it probably wouldn't tell me, right? um So I think enough people would leave it alone at that point. But um I think it has helped because I can talk to people who feel uncomfortable being allies and be like, actually, I'm kind of in some capacity as an ally to my own community. And then, you know, I can't talk or speak personally to the effects of being an Asian woman in the workplace, right? But I can say here's what the research says, you know, here's how it ties our personal experiences, here's how we should be trying to help them as allies, and then I can kind of use that identity of not in some ways fully belonging to the community to then empower allies to better take action or at least speak to it or at least
00:49:52
Speaker
at bare minimum be aware, which I think has its own benefits. And then there's other people that can step into those other places that maybe I can't fully assume. So Shannon, I don't know if that that resonates with you at all, or if there's anything you want to expand upon. Yeah, no, I mean, well, I cannot speak to the biracial or multiracial experience. But I appreciate you sharing all of that, and I think just through Alex and I working together, I feel like we've learned a lot just even from each other. And so I think, again, going back to just even kind of seeing how he has navigated being in a leadership position for Asians. And I know I feel like that has also shaped like how I show up as a leader in different ways in which what we were talking about before, like how I can be more assertive, looking seeing and in how he shows up in different spaces. Again, finding things that like work for me um And again, also just yeah learning more about, like I said, the ah multiracial experience. I personally, because I identify as Chinese, that is not something that I've had to deal with. Right. um I think also to write for us within Asians in Iowa.
00:51:07
Speaker
We are pretty US and American centric, but actually a lot of people have joined our LinkedIn group from across the world,
Global Interest in Asian Representation
00:51:14
Speaker
right? So a lot of people in India, a lot of people in, you know, Australia, all these different places. And I feel like that has been really eye opening for us as well of just being like, okay, we were originally thinking, you know, Asian American, um but actually there is this desire and energy like across the world even. and That's been really cool too. Cool. I love the work that you guys are doing. um Any um in a way we can help support it, let us know. Reach out to us.
00:51:46
Speaker
Glad that we were able to get you all on this two out of the three of you on this podcast today to amplify your voice and let other people hear about the work that you do. And we look forward to seeing what you do in the next two,
Episode Conclusion with Haiku
00:52:01
Speaker
three years. And yeah, I want to thank you both for joining us on this episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. And Echo, we want to close out with a haiku. Do we have one?
00:52:11
Speaker
ah Yes, we do. For context, Shannon and Alex, we usually ended with a haiku at the end of the podcast for our every episode. So this time, chat GPC does give me a longer ones because usually it's just a three lines haiku. In the depths we speak, owning who we truly are, proud with voice bold. Podcast stories grow.
00:52:37
Speaker
funds for Asians standing strong like the tides will flow. They will pass light away, industry and culture blend, together we stay. So what we typically do is ask chat GPT to write a haiku for based on the themes for that session and today as I'm hearing those of you talking and I'm just giving more prompts to refine the haiku and therefore we have like three actually nine nines right now. um but More than a haiku. I think a haiku is what 575. Poetic ah ah versus from from echo you here. What was the prompt? So originally, I asked it to just write a haiku on a speaker series with the founders for Asian in the industry and organizational psychology. And as Alex and Shannon share more of experience, I asked them to
00:53:35
Speaker
putting more of ah the content on the, they're coming, they're coming to share their experience about speaking up for themselves, having allies, and then also owning the Asian identity. And after runs of iterations, here's what we're getting at the end. That's cool. I actually did listen to the episodes where Vivian's side beforehand, and so I knew that that you all had some clues at the end, but I didn't know how they came to be, and so that's that's cool to hear about. Well, Chad GPT did all the work, so...