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Real talk with Leaders in the Field: The Very Handsome Sy Islam
62 Plays3 months ago
Dr. Sy Islam, is an associate professor of Industrial Organizational I/O psychology at Farmingdale State College, a co-founder and Vice President of Consulting with Talent Metrics, and a published author. He joins us to talk about his upbringing and how he got his start in IO psychology. We also talk about the importance of humor and the effective ways to use it in building relationships in the workplace. While recounting his journey, Sy talks about all the stereotypes that he has encountered, overcame, and deflected. Regarding career progression, he reminds us to be mindful, be respectful, and be yourself — listen to the podcast to hear all the details!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome listeners to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. I'm one of your hosts, Dook. I'm Echo. um Today we don't have Jenny, but we do have a guest with us and I'm really excited to um talk to our scholar practitioner. So today we're going to continue our Leaders in the Field um program where we actually talk to folks who are um Experts in the field and bring them in and get their perspective and how talk about how they got to where they are and the work that they do ah For themselves and their community. So echo I'm really excited today because we have dr.
Name and Identity Discussion
00:00:57
Speaker
Tsai Islam with us o happy be welcome Welcome doctors Islam um Now it's ah
00:01:11
Speaker
Can we talk about your name real quick? Because you go by Sai and Saeed. What's your preference? every Everyone just calls me Sai and at least at least now professionally. And what's really funny is that's not... growing up that wasn't my name. I actually made people, when I was a kid, I made people say my full name, which is Sayidul, which is like a mouthful, especially for ah first grade teachers that were used to, you know, Mike and Charlie, other kinds of names. You know, and my family, ah you know, everybody just calls me Sayid, which is, you know, what my wife calls me and, you know, my in-laws, you know, my parents. ah But professionally, ah it's just Sai. And i I just go by that. And that was because, like, you know, when I started
00:02:01
Speaker
uh, you know, working in, in kind of training and recruitment. Um, I, you know, I figured out that like people, people were really going to struggle even with the two syllable, you know, uh, with the two syllable name, they were going to, because it was, it was, it was foreign or they weren't used to it. I was like, you know what, let's just, this would make it one, one syllable, go the full Madonna and just like, let people just call me that. And it's just stuck.
00:02:26
Speaker
Um, and it's been, it's been an easy transition. It's actually now some of my older, some of my oldest friends, because they see me on LinkedIn and i I use the name in like social media context. They've started calling me Psy. So it's a, it's very interesting to see how that, how that goes in full circle. Um, culturally as well, ah Bangladeshi people usually have a family nickname that is like what everybody calls them. And then they have like a government name that is like on all official paperwork.
00:02:57
Speaker
ah My family never gave me a family nickname So, you know this now now I have a professional nickname.
Educational Journey and Achievements
00:03:04
Speaker
So I guess I guess it all evened out All right, let me I know we're diving into it a little bit let me back up a little bit and do a quick intro of of Psy here um so we're really lucky to have our special guest here today to talk about his experience and um because we want to highlight and spotlight folks who are doing the work of IO psychology in in the field. And of course, ah typically IO psychology has been very homogenous and we have some folks who have ah broken some barriers and done some things and we want to spotlight them. So I want to let our audience know that Tsai has, his um of course, his ah bachelor's in economics.
00:03:49
Speaker
has his MBA in human resource. And I think that's where I believe he learned about a little bit more about IO psychology. He actually then got a master's in IO psychology. And I think this is at Fairleigh Dickinson University. And then it went on to actually get his IO PhD from Hofstra. He's ah had over a decade of experience in the field doing applied and scholarly work. He's currently ah both a tenured professor ah At Farmingdale State College and he's also a co-founder and the vice president of consulting ah ah Vice president of consulting with talent metrics He does train and development selection survey design performance management work and team building work He also mentors young scholars, which is absolutely amazing and
00:04:41
Speaker
um reminding them to actually take opportunities where they can and be intentional with their decisions. And I know, and we'll probably dive into this a little bit. I think one of his philosophies is actually talking about how business can serve capitalism in a way. So I'm really excited to kind of um talk about that. So welcome, Sai, to our program. Is there anything else you would add to our for our listeners?
00:05:10
Speaker
I am very handsome. That's the number one thing people need to about me. Our audience can't see this, but but it's Dr. Islam is very, very handsome. so And I can attest to that. And the voice matches the face.
Cultural Perceptions and Stereotypes
00:05:24
Speaker
that's if the voice i'd like mine If the voice matches the face, then I i look like Kermit the Frog, so I'll just put that out there. You're very popular and... yeah well as as ah As a Muslim, being popular with pigs would be a problem.
00:05:42
Speaker
That would be really oh no only a weird weird situation for for everybody. And I can get away with saying that because this is only an audio podcast. So but people can look look up my best image, which is like my headshot, and they'll be like, oh, wow, he wasn't lying. And then at Sia, everybody's like, wow, he's way shorter than I thought he was. The things we're going down to, I can't, there's questions I can't ask Sia.
00:06:09
Speaker
And for listeners, Zai and I started the session um with a lighting conversation that he taught me how to do a professional lighting so that can look the face look prettier. So just listeners, you know, that's a that's our um Dr. Islam.
00:06:31
Speaker
It's very handsome, Dr. Islam. Well, actually, I was thinking about this in the context of like Asian American experience, ah because my wife and I were watching this movie called In the Mood for Love. and video I don't know if you've ever seen this movie. It's directed by Wong Kar-Wai, very romantic film. And ah in it, there's an actor named Tony Leung, who's like a big Hong Kong ah movie star, extremely handsome man. And the thing is that like in America and in the West, you know, Asian men are often not not seen as like very handsome or very attractive, but if you watch In the Mood for Love, this dude looked just incredible. ah Very, very handsome guy. And then the actress in the movie Maggie Chiang also looks incredible. And so ah in in the context of like stereotypes and like being
00:07:22
Speaker
Asian and in the United States, sometimes you have to combat that stuff. And growing up, I was concerned like people, even even in my very, um very, ah you you know, brown community of like Edison, New Jersey, there were people would, you know, people will be funny for a couple of things. So I was always very concerned about smell, because people would say, oh, indian people smell, brown people smell.
00:07:48
Speaker
And I was always concerned about like, you know, making sure that, okay, I at least people can't say that about me, you know, and i I was thinking about that as well as like, you know, that's like a thing that if we're and in in the world of IO, we may think that our field is like maybe above that, but that even from that childhood experience, we might think about like, okay, I got to smell right. I got to look right. I have to, you know, separate myself from these stereotypes.
00:08:15
Speaker
Wow. sigh I like how you brought us to the center of the topic there. I remember we had an episode on that in the past, like how for minority groups, usually we need to make actual effort so we can make up some of the perception other people having on us. Like, say, I wanted to hear your experience because it sounds like it's starting from the childhood. And how does that like relate to any of the IO psych that you were studying back then? Does that have any of the impact on how you got into the field at all?
Career Path and Family Expectations
00:08:52
Speaker
Absolutely. and And especially coming from a ah ah South Asian, specifically my family's from Bangladesh. We have a lot of ah medical doctors in the field in our in our family, but not many people that have studied like social sciences. And, you know, when I moved away from medical school. That was a big deal because my my parents first reaction was what what the hell are you gonna do with your life? You know, we don't we don't understand or know anything else. Like, this is the thing like everybody we we know medicine and all of our friends know it. Are you going to go into engineering? I'm like, No, ah that's not what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna figure something else out.
00:09:32
Speaker
And even economics was a stretch for them ah because they were kind of like, well, i don't i i know it does I know it involves money, but will it make you money um at some point? ah So this was this was the conversation that I was having. and then eventually Even to this day, my parents aren't really sure what IO psychology is. They've kind of like accepted that I'm ah i'm a professor of something, you know but they're still that you know those heuristics are so powerful. right The psychology heuristic is you're doing therapy.
00:10:07
Speaker
And you know the South Asian heuristic is that you you work in IT. So if I go to like a networking event and there are maybe HR people or other people there, even dinner parties, one of the first questions that people ask is like, oh, dude do you work with the computers? Do you work in IT? And I'm like, no. that there's another There's another brown guy down there. That's the one you're looking for. and You can fix your computer. um But that's the you know you you have to kind of create that space for yourself And then when when I was ah coming up in in the world of IO, there were maybe a couple of very prominent South Asian um researchers. There was Rishad Dalal, who I believe he's he's at some school in DC right now. um And then you know from the from Muslim standpoint, I actually don't know if she's Muslim or not, but ah Susan Muhammad was a big researcher early on um that you know I at least knew was, oh, she's at least
00:11:06
Speaker
Arab um you know, and it has a name, you know, kind of like mine. And, you know, as somebody, you know, the other reason I'm hyper aware of like, ah some of the ways that I'm perceived is because because of my last name, um you know, yeah my last name is Islam, not like, you know, there, you know, it gives off a very quick signal. um And so I know that I have to be ready for for some of those questions. And so,
00:11:37
Speaker
navigating the world of like academia and then navigating the world of like independent consulting ah required really being being aware of those things and kind of mitigating the effects of of those ah those stereotypes or those expectations and you know building up a lot of social skills, finding ways to build up social capital and and be becoming distinct away from what people thought ah you you actually were.
00:12:21
Speaker
you you actually dropped a lot on us. They're going from like stereotypes of the food, like Asian men not being handsome or romantic to and asian South Asians not being in the social sciences. you Hinting at the name, right talking about what that we typically work in. um It seems like that's a lot to have to navigate. How do you do it?
00:12:48
Speaker
How do you have to, how do you parcel this knowing like these things are, these stereotypes are out there. These heuristics are out there and you may fit some of it and you may have to fight
Building Professional Relationships and Networking
00:13:00
Speaker
some of it. You may not. How do you navigate all this stuff knowing that it's out there? Um, you know, I think you just have to be the best version of yourself that you can. Like if somebody is going to apply heuristic to you, there's not a lot that you can do to get a, to get away with it. Uh, and to kind of like.
00:13:18
Speaker
you know reduce that heuristic because we know from research that the only way the heuristic gets reduced is if people have interactions with you over time. And you know if you're meeting somebody for the first time, you just kind of have to roll roll with it and say, OK, maybe they have this image of me. um And then if if they do, ah so for example, somebody says, are you working in IT? t You just say, oh, no, this is this is the field I'm in. And rather than being defensive about it, kind of owning you know, owning owning that part of yourself and just saying, yeah, this is this is where I'm at, this is what I do. um And, you know, kind of holding onto that, your sense of self, your sense of identity and expressing that to, um you know, to another person or to a group of people and using that to kind of build um build capacity over time, right? ah Because the thing is, you're not gonna,
00:14:19
Speaker
you can change some things about those heuristics, but ah you can't let them let it stop you from doing what you what you want. um And you also can't let ah you know, you can't kind of succumb to that and say like, Oh, I'm i'm never gonna make it because I'm, ah you know, because I'm not the right skin tone, or I'm not the right background, you just have to find a way to get into those spaces. What I found works for me is ah building building really you know good relationships and networking and finding people in the field that will create and produce that ah support system for you. ah I've been really lucky in in jobs that I've been in, I've found ah you know people to to be supportive, to be helpful. um In my research you know ah teams, you know you'll notice if you look at any of the
00:15:16
Speaker
papers that have been on, I almost never write solo papers. There are lots of people that contribute, and I've been really lucky to find good ah collaborators. And I think that that means a lot. You know, like, if you're thinking that, oh, I'm just gonna make it on my own, um and I have to, like, prove prove my way, prove my worth that way, um I don't think that's gonna be very helpful for you. I think, you know, for for people who are in minority positions,
00:15:44
Speaker
Uh, sometimes you need the validation of somebody that's part of the majority group or perceived to be part of the majority group, whatever that group happens to be. And that can help you to build those, you know, relationships and get that, that in to a, to a situation where you want to be. The coalitions, the coworkers, the, the co-authors. I love it. I have to, yeah, I have to call out there. It's not just i'm making any connections.
00:16:12
Speaker
I definitely heard there's a specific as element is like trying to make the connection to the majority group will see what's out there. And so it's almost like you're trying to infuse yourself in or bring yourself to them. Like that elements I wanted to call out for our listeners, because I do think that's probably sounds like a very tactical, but that's also very strategic.
00:16:39
Speaker
Absolutely. And the thing is that, you know, we want to build connections with those majority group members because sometimes they don't know the value that we bring. Maybe, maybe they're not even aware of the attitude that they might have or the way that they might be treating you or, you know, a lot of it, you know, is sometimes just due to ignorance. And then you build that relationship over time and then people start to change and say, well, okay, I've learned a little bit about you know, this person's background, this person's culture. And then later on, they're more open to, to other people, to others, others in the field, um you know, that are maybe, maybe not the same as them. Wow. Say, if you don't mind, it and can I get even more tactical there? Like in the situation like that, how you how do you usually like start that conversation with the majority group and how do you sell yourself to them to a certain degree, like trying to get them getting to know you?
00:17:36
Speaker
Do you have like a specific example that you can share? I don't know if it you might've noticed that we we did a little bit of that in in the beginning of today's podcast. So if people wanna rewind and listen to this again, ah i i try to I try to be really open and I try to be ah funny ah very often. Like that's the that's the route that I found that works for me. It doesn't work for everybody. You shouldn't feel like you need to make jokes. It's just something I have like,
00:18:03
Speaker
gotten good at over time. um that That's what's worked for me is like being being humorous. or ah But the the most important thing I would say is is really listening to that majority group member. And because before you can build a a relationship you know ah for that person or with that person, you need to kind of assess, okay, are they gonna be helpful? Are they open to you know being good mentor to me or providing me with insight later on? um And what I find is helpful with that is I try to offer help.
00:18:39
Speaker
whenever I can like if you frame things as oh I can provide support for you for this and you know then you build that relationship where a lot of times I think a lot of networking especially among students and young people the idea is well how how is this person going to help me how is this individual I'm meeting them at this you know my workplace they're on my they're on my team or they're on another team let me reach out to them and find out what they can do for me And frankly, you don't know what somebody else is going to do for you. that no it's like It's very, very hard to predict that. um the The goal should be for you to build a good relationship and then maybe sometime down the road, they're going to be able to help you. ah But at least at first, if you can put your best foot forward and say, hey, how can I support you? How can you know how could we help each other? I think that creates an environment where
00:19:35
Speaker
you're going to be able to build that connection and and things will be deeper in that sense than they would be in in in other ways. I love it. I love that you're breaking you know the ice with humor. I've done that before myself. I lived in Iowa for about two decades and people would always ask me like, what kind of name is Duke? And I would tell them, Duke is an American as apple pie.
00:20:01
Speaker
ah you go yeah
00:20:06
Speaker
That's you know, that's the you just kind of have to you have to accept that that's it's a different thing for them. And then, you know, we're work on it from that, you know, from that way. So the thing is that, like, I realize this over time is that if somebody meets you and they've never met somebody from your background before, they have no reference point. They have no.
00:20:25
Speaker
you know, way of thinking about it. And so you have to get them to that point to understand your perspective and your views. um In many cases, you have to like untangle beliefs that they already, that they have that are not correct. um You know, like the number of, ah you know, the number of people that that imagine that, you know, maybe I don't have, you know, social skills or that maybe I'm, um' an awkward nerd, which I can be. I do like ah you know Marvel movies and all sorts of other really nerdy things. But you know that's also part of it is like building building that connection, building those relationships.
Mentorship and Representation in Academia
00:21:07
Speaker
And what I found is that for the most part, you can identify allies that the yeah especially going back to the 80s when I was growing up to now things have things have changed where you can really find support in a way that I think my parents didn't really get.
00:21:27
Speaker
um you know And my my family members that immigrated to the states afterwards, they they didn't really have. And so it's, I think, imperative for our particular generation to continue that work and to continue to build capacity so that we can you know So that we don't go back to a time period where um you know where we don't have as much opportunity. ah you know no matter No matter how hard some some forces in in the country are trying to push us back, we want to make sure that we we continue to build that that capacity, that we're able to build connections and get those things done.
00:22:06
Speaker
I don't have a question here, but I'm just listening and I'm hearing you talk about how like for people of color or asian Asian folks that not only do they have to understand themselves, they kind of have to understand the perspective of where others are coming from. um Do you think that expectation is Something else like is that too much? Is that just another thing that's added to our plates? Or is that something that we're gonna have to really continue to just have to take the burden of like I'm gonna have to understand get like coming to work like I have to understand this person may not have not had an experience with working with South Asian Southeast Asians East Asians or West Asians, whatever it may be and i have to become like
00:22:53
Speaker
come and be gentle with it or like come and be mindful with what I could contribute and what they can contribute. Do you think the onus is on just us?
00:23:04
Speaker
I think the onus is always on us. And that's ah that's a tough thing to hear. But you know the thing is that, um you especially if it's a coworker, you have to live with that person, right? For however long you're working with them, you have to live with them. Unless they're like virulently racist, or they're actively trying to do things that are harmful to your career, to you personally,
00:23:31
Speaker
you understanding their perspective is, I think, really important. And sometimes you're not going to be buddy-buddy with them, and you may only achieve a certain amount of connection with that person, right? like um One thing that I've it had to had to come to accept is, especially ah you know with clients or with students, is ah you can be polite and and work with one another, even if your perspectives and viewpoints are extremely different. So, for example, ah teaching teaching in Long Island at a primarily teaching-oriented school with a lot of like
00:24:14
Speaker
uh blue collar uh first generation college students uh there are a lot of students that come in with perspectives that are much more conservative than what i saw when i was in rutgers rutgers very uh you know left wing type school um at farmingdale i have a lot of students that come in and they you know they grew up watching fox news they you know they have a lot of conservative viewpoints and ideas. um you know For example, if I talk about affirmative action in class, I always have students tell me that like, oh, I know somebody who got better, you know who who was better fit for a job, but they lost out to a minority. And that was illuminating to me the first few times that I heard it. I had ah so i had a female student tell me once, when we were talking about gender stereotypes in leadership,
00:25:01
Speaker
she told me, oh, no, men are definitely better leaders than women. And I was taken aback. That's that there's a lot there's a lot there that we need to talk about in terms of what you're thinking. And, you know, even if you disagree, you should leave still understand where that perspective is coming from, especially if you're planning on on working with that person, if they're going to be there with you for a significant amount of time, um because you you have to find a way to deal with them. And so it's up to us to adjust.
00:25:31
Speaker
But it's also up to us to find a way to represent and maybe over time change some of those ideas or at least bring them, you know, even if they don't completely agree with you, maybe just perspective. ah There's a concept in Sometimes it's used in OD, it's used a lot in politics called the Overton Window, which is like the window of acceptable ah acceptable ideas. And they talk about this in terms of like politics, in terms of like what's considered you know left wing or right wing or what kind of policy is is acceptable or not. ah So if you if you can get people's Overton Window to be changed a little bit so that they're willing to accept
00:26:14
Speaker
um you know, somebody who's who's of a different background, who kind of breaks an expectation that they have, I think that's really, really helpful. I hope I've been able to do that for, you know, South Asians, and I especially hope I'm able to do that with, with um you know, for for how people view Muslims, um you know, because that's, that's a I think, a salient identity for a lot of people that is is tough to deal with.
00:26:38
Speaker
um i I can't say that. i Maybe I made it worse. Who knows? You never know, but you just try to do your best.
00:26:59
Speaker
so I heard you also product the um the other identity mostly, which is something that we haven't, as in our podcast, we haven't really tapped into that space much. Can you share a bit more on that identity? that How does that relate to your work experience? How does that relate to your mentoring experience itself, um especially when it tangos with the South Asian ah image there. Sure. So ah you know being being Muslim, especially like being yeah practicing Muslim in the in in academia, ah and academia actually is ah is a relatively safe space, I think, for many minorities.
00:27:45
Speaker
um especially if you're not at a heavy teaching institution. I'm at a teaching institution, but I really love teaching and I noticed that for my students, I break stereotypes because sometimes they come to class and I'm like, oh, is this guy gonna have an accent? you know And in fact, I've had students tell me that, oh, you speak really well.
00:28:06
Speaker
and I'm like okay well thank you I grew up here that's you know that's uh that's what happens you speak very well too very well you speak great you know um I often I often wonder if students realize that their writing is worse than a lot of their uh immigrant professors who who you know did well enough in in school in another language that they're now teaching in that language But for students, it's just like, well, that guy's got an accent. He's he's no good. um But I think that's ah that's a big part of it. And then that's also kind of figuring out ways to ah you know maintain maintain my practice of of you know my faith in the community. I've done a lot of stuff where you know i'm I'm an advisor for the Muslim Students Association.
00:28:53
Speaker
um at Farmingdale State College. When I was in grad school, I worked in the ah the chaplain's office ah with the Muslim chaplain. um So we, you know, that was like an important ah important thing because there are a lot of young Muslim students that that want to know that they have, you know, somebody that they can talk to that could maybe help them.
00:29:14
Speaker
ah can provide them with some feedback and support if they're going through something difficult. um you know I think that's a really important important thing. Just being ah in the space is valuable. And that's why I continue to do mentorship through the committee on ethnic minority affairs ah through SIOP. So if anybody is listening and they want to take advantage of that, it's a really great opportunity to connect with people from your background or an adjacent background that can maybe give you some insight um I didn't really have that coming up in in IO. I had very good mentors, but they did not share an identity with me. um And what I found was that like as long as they were genuine people, and as long as they would you know they could listen to what ah my experiences were, that they could actually provide maybe in not a perfect
00:30:07
Speaker
answer but something that was really really helpful and I found that ah being able to connect with a lot of the South Asian students and Muslim students now that are coming up in IO and that are that are professionals in the field that things are things have gotten a lot better and I mean, we didn't even have anything like Asians and IO when I was in grad school, right? like That alone is a huge um it a huge thing. so I think that just started like two, three years ago, right? That's that that group. And we'll actually have those two of the co-founders in a couple of weeks. That's great. um Gosh, there's something I wanted to ask you about accents. It sounded like you had you have
00:30:54
Speaker
connotations of what other people had connotations of. It's kind of a meta stereotype, right? yeah Did you ever work on your accent or or voice at all? Um, not really. Uh, just because I have like, I grew up, I was born in, in, in New Jersey. So I have like maybe a New Jersey accent. I'm not really, really sure. Um, I am aware of speaking clearly, especially in specific audiences. And then I'm hyper aware about like making and breaking things down, whether it's for like a practitioner audience or for student audience about material in IO.
00:31:32
Speaker
So it's very interesting that I'm in a field where nobody knows what the field is, and it's hard to like explain. And I have a background that's like not not typical, and it's a little hard to explain because my family's from Bangladesh. And when people met me for the first time, they were like, oh, what part of India are you from? Not from India. you know ah my My uncle fought in a war so that we we are not India. We're not Pakistan. and you know and so these are you know it's a really interesting to have to like differentiate those things because you know this happens i see this happen with east asians all the time where it's like well okay what part of china are you from not not chinese right you know they're from laos or campote or some someplace else right and and you kind of have to be like all right we this person's from distinct place and i always you know uh it's also really funny to see that happen with um
00:32:25
Speaker
that Americans do that to Europeans. You know, they'll meet somebody from Wales and they'll be like, oh, what part of, you know, how British are you? And they'll be like, no, no, no, that's not, that's not right. uh, or Ireland and be like, well, you know, are you English? Right. And so those things still happen. We really just want to, you know, remind people of, of that background and say, well, I'm a, I'm a, I'm slightly different. I'm a little different. And that's the same thing with, with IO. Like when I talk to people, they're like, Oh, you must be in HR. You must be in training. And I'm like, I do some of those things. I'm adjacent to them, but not exactly the same.
00:33:01
Speaker
Yeah, and Sai, what you mentioned there also got me thinking like how I react to people when they actually got it right. Yeah, I'm a Chinese, like they guessed it right. But I know there's something behind their guessing, their assumption that I make me uncomfortable. um So yes, I absolutely love that example. Like when you were actually not from that country, being called out from that country. And also when you are actually from that country and being called out from that same exact country.
00:33:30
Speaker
Yeah. I've turned it into a joke a bit. So sometimes if students are really interested in knowing what my background is, I'll tell them that they can guess and they can see if they can get it right. And almost nobody ever does, ah which is which is kind of fun for me. I'm like, ah we're such a small small country that nobody knows who we are. I like that. I like bringing that sense of humor like it's kind of light like kind of lighthearted right to does just make ah let's make a game out of it ah but as we're doing this you're getting to know me a little bit more right and you're gonna break some of your own perceptions of like oh he's not from here or there or she's not from here or there I gotta to do a better job of guessing
00:34:15
Speaker
yeah interesting yeah and the thing is that we also we look at um i'll use i'll use Caucasians as an example we tend to think of them as one big block but really when you ask people about it and you say well okay where's your family originally from they might say ireland or they might say Czechoslovakia or Poland um in the town i live in in long ireland there's a big polish community and so i may be looking at somebody and i'll allow this typical white person but They have a whole background of being from Poland. And and that that's something that if you ah approach somebody with that same perspective, the one the one that you want of, oh, tell me more about you as an individual and tell me more about your background. I think it's a good way to get people excited about, oh, ah oh this is what we're what we're doing. This is what we're going to be talking about. OK, I want to share.
00:35:04
Speaker
my background as well. So I think that's really important when you think about majority group members is there is this nuance there for many of them about their background as well as ours. I love that. Among all that experience, like what actually stood out to you as like, you wish I knew this from 10 years ago, ways were without IO knowledge.
Authenticity in Professional Settings
00:35:28
Speaker
Like what would be that one thing that you feel like absolutely something that you might or might not want to change.
00:35:37
Speaker
So it's it's very interesting we're talking about like, and you know, I'm mentioning like, Oh, I want to you want to be yourself and you want to put your best foot forward. That wasn't always, that wasn't always the way this was like 15 years into ah into a career, you know, ah getting tenure, at the idea of like, there's there's a, you know, it's a long journey to that. But I wish I could go back and um tell myself, like oh, it's it's gonna be it's going to be okay. you don't have to ah You don't have to change who you are. You just have to try to be you're you know the best version of yourself that you can and be open to other people's input and and who they are um and and have that and have you know be ready for that because
00:36:17
Speaker
When I first started, especially ah in academia and in consulting, I really thought about, well, OK, what is the best way to present myself? And I was kind of contorting myself a little bit um you know to to appear differently or be be different ah than who I actually was. So in academia, I was like super quiet, ah didn't didn't want to say too much, wanted to make sure that I um you know was very careful about um you know how i how I navigated the environment.
00:36:48
Speaker
Academia can be very, very political. I'm really lucky my department's not political. My institution ist isn't that political in the sense of like ah there being a lot of sniping back and forth and and that kind of stuff. Like and the the the university and the college are very committed to a mission of student success and my department's also very committed to that. So once I kind of understood that I could really ah get better at at that ah that type of job.
00:37:17
Speaker
ah But the with the consulting, um I knew that when I talked to regular people or when I was talking about ah services that we were offering, um that it was going to be a ah big kind of leap for them to understand what I could do, what I could offer. And so I tried to make sure that I didn't appear too different or too foreign or any of those things. And once I once i gave those things up and I kind of leaned into you know, here's the things I can do. Here's the stuff I know really, really well. Um, and once I started talking about those things, rather than like some image of, of, you know, a consultant that they might have, I could just say, well, this is who I am. Is there something I can do for you, whether or not I fit your image of consultant or not? Um, that made things a lot better for me, but I spent probably a couple of years, um, using the wrong approach and, you know, limiting myself in that way, but that,
00:38:15
Speaker
That's something that like comes with time and practice and age and kind of figuring out who who you are. Um, and that's not going to happen right away. So if you're in grad school listening to this and going like, I don't know who I am, like, that's okay. You're in grad school. You're, you're not supposed to know if you're early in your career, you may not know, but that's okay. you know So I'm hearing you say, um, kind of throughout the interview, be mindful, be respectful, be yourself. Uh, and I love that.
00:38:45
Speaker
and You're hinting at there's a certain point. There's a certain threshold. There's a fulcrum in which there's a There's a spot where you hit where you're like you can be yourself You can it's gonna be okay if yourself when did you hit that and how did you know? but That's a that's a good that's a good question, ah how did I know I'll say one day you wake up so this is i'll I'll explain this in a really weird way so if you've ever broken up with somebody you ever had like a relationship end with somebody like a you know but you know girlfriend boyfriend whatever and you feel you feel bad right for a certain amount of time and then one day you stop feeling bad and and that's kind of like
00:39:27
Speaker
what happens is you can be intentional about that too. You can say, OK, I have this plan. um This is where I see myself. This is where my career is going to go. And you can write out that plan. And then eventually, over time, you won't have to plan anymore. You'll just be, OK, I'm at this point. I really feel like I'm here and I'm i'm doing the stuff that I want to do. um you know But Really, that's how it is. its just you you You realize at a certain point, like, oh, I'm in the middle of it. Okay, i'm I'm doing the work that I think I should be doing. I'm doing the stuff that I think I should be doing. This is what I ah what i want to do. But I think you also have to be like, yeah I think it's really important for you to do check-ins with people like about yourself and you know also checking in with others.
Community Support and Identity Affirmation
00:40:12
Speaker
One of the things that's been helpful is we've been able to build a little like South Asian and and Muslim community a little bit, NIO, and in talent development as well. ah Those communities are are really important. And I think it's important for you, like, if you're gonna be a part of that community to check in with others and then be open to them, you know, checking in with you and and kind of ah reflecting what what they're seeing in addition to what you're what you're experiencing.
00:40:39
Speaker
um especially because you know I think a lot of people don't realize that you might be going through something, um especially if they're part of majority groups. right like As a man, one of the first one of the things I realized is like i I do not pick up on signals from women particularly well, and and you know we're let alone my wife. but you know, um, you know, from like, if I'm working with a coworker and I'm, you know, sometimes I'll just be like, okay, maybe something's happening. Let me check in. Let me see what's happening with them. And that's because I don't, I don't know the experiences and I have my own like limitations and biases when it comes to that. I have certain concepts and ideas that I'm just saying. Um, so you you kind of have to do those check-ins and understand, you know, where you are and understand yourself. And then.
00:41:29
Speaker
I think kind of thinking about where your career is going to go and you know kind of looking at and saying, well, this is what I thought it was going to do a year from now, two years from now. Am I am i aware where I wanted to be? Is that even reasonable anymore? Is that something that I could do given the economy, given other things?
00:42:07
Speaker
why you shared as the part that caught me attention was also the part you mentioned like, because you use that analogy that this is like you breaking up with someone and then there's a bad period that you feel really horrible, but then all of a sudden you feel so much relief and then you're at peace with yourself.
00:42:31
Speaker
And the part is like, I think ah for a lot of our listeners are probably still in the phase that still in this breakup mode, feel horrible, feeling shit. And I think that's, that's almost an offering. Like there's a light at the end of this tunnel.
00:42:49
Speaker
And I absolutely love that analogy and because I ah do think that provides a hope to our listeners being to navigate this identity in the context.
00:43:03
Speaker
you just reminded me, like a lot of things that we experience as students are kind of like that, right? Like a dissertation, oh, I feel terrible. And then all of a sudden it's over, right? And you get the PhD. Like did did both of you immediately feel like, oh yeah, I'm here. I graduated. I'm done. Like when you were done with your degrees, because I definitely did. ah I really thought that they were like, when I got the PhD, I was like, oh, I'm going to feel so different. I'm going to feel,
00:43:30
Speaker
You know, ah the sun is going to be shining and the the birds will be singing and everything will be different. And I remember the day after, i felt I felt like there was a burden that was lifted, but I still have the same, like all the same problems are still there. I feel still had to clean the kitchen. I still had to like do my laundry. And I was like, where are the servants? I thought I was going to get better service in life now. There's no nothing.
00:43:56
Speaker
You know, and the doctor thing, that that loses its its appeal very quickly. It's like, okay, great, it's another title. But, you know, those things didn't didn't immediately change, right? Like it was just like, okay, after a while, then you started to feel like, oh, okay, i I've earned this and I've i've made it and I've i've got it.
00:44:16
Speaker
inside you know what makes it worse given i just had that feeling or i just went through that process is not only nothing has changed significant significantly in life but also at the same time you are also like Well what's next um and because you already have this high expectation or as some level of expectation things will be different and you have been built up to that moment and now because your knife didn't really change that much
00:44:50
Speaker
and you immediately disappoint yourself. um So I felt like I'm still in that phase. Yeah, and's you know, it's not immediate, right? Like, you're okay, I got to now I got to work again. Now I have to go through this process again. And I've got to, you know, figure out my career. And yeah, there's so much stuff there that is is is important. But that's like, you know, that's really key. If you have good mentors, we you have good community to kind of like check in with yourself.
00:45:18
Speaker
they can recalibrate those expectations. They can tell you like, okay, you know you're you still have to put your pants on one leg at a time. Now, even though you've got the PhD, that didn't change. But over time, you'll feel more confident, you'll you'll develop that over time. And um I think that's also part of the reason that like I'm very open to talking to people, to mentoring them is because you know a lot of times people don't have that that perspective, especially um From a South Asian perspective of like ah you know people build up the degrees, they build up the jobs um that you get so much, that those are going to be the solutions for things. But those are those are only those accomplishments are only solving one small part of a problem. The rest of your life is going to continue. And you just kind of have to enjoy the the accomplishment and the success and realize that, OK, I'm still going to have to do all of these other things.
00:46:13
Speaker
um And I think that's also part of the reason why you know ah I'm seeing all these all these young ah students, Asian students, South Asian students, Muslim students coming into the field now. And I think it's important to like you know not just think about my own my own ramp of like you know where I want to go, but um I'm a middle-aged man now. My time is short. i'm I'm almost done. It's actually strange to say that because I'm not i'm not even 50 yet. but
00:46:44
Speaker
my time is almost done so I have to like make sure that whoever's coming in after me can continue with whatever we're able to accomplish so that's also something I've been thinking about which is like real old man stuff but ah you know I think it's important to think about early so that other people can can get that benefit and can you know build capacity in our field. Can I tie in a sense of ah a bit of humor for our special guests and our our listeners? so ah and you know To our listeners, keep in mind that there's a light at the end of the tunnel and it's on a train.
00:47:23
Speaker
I hope that's not a trade. It's not a trade. So you won't make it. And when you do it, maybe ah underwhelming and that's that's OK. You just got to it sounds like what I'm hearing from Sy and even you echo. And I think I've experienced this myself is that you know sometimes it's underwhelming, but you're on your way and you'll be OK and you're going to make it work. Reach out to folks and you know talk it out and enhance that community if it was. So I'm hearing from Sy quite a bit through our interviews. I'm really glad our audience got to got to hear that.
00:47:54
Speaker
Yes. And as usual, we typically like end our podcast with chat GPT, write us a haiku with the theme that from the episode itself. So I also did ask chat GPT to write another one for us today. ah So it start with guests from the South teach can consult with wisdom and wit strategy loves blend. um I felt like it's a good representation of you, Sai, at least like from today's episode. um And I'm sure like as I was calling back or replaying our episode, I'll find out more, but this is how it strikes me as ah um as the essence for this episode.
00:48:42
Speaker
That's great. I actually really love, I don't know if I mentioned this to Dook, but I love haiku. I think it's like ah it an awesome art form and it's a lot of fun. I like write them just for myself. like ah So this is great. I think this is awesome that they, you know, we were able to get this sort of haiku. and um And one thing I want to mention, um this reminded me of this, is that you know ah Haiku doesn't have to be a part of the the podcast experience, but it's part of you know ah being, you know it's ah it's a ah piece of Asian culture. And you can do that in almost any other context that you're in. You can sneak in just a little bit of yourself
00:49:21
Speaker
ah into into any context that you happen to be in. So I mentioned that my my buddy Gordon Schmidt and I, we wrote this book about Marvel and leadership. ah That's a big part of my my childhood growing up. And since we're talking about like, ah you know, cross-cultural issues, we wrote another book about Avatar the Last Airbender that's also like another leadership book that's like kind of sneaking in all of those concepts, all of those ideas into ah Into the world of IO. So yeah, this I love that. It's awesome Well, so I thank you so much for joining us on this episode of hidden in plain sight Thank your listeners for joining us and we'll see you on the next