Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Old McDon had reforms, E-O, E-O, oh?!
30 Plays12 days ago
In this episode, we examine recent executive orders affecting DEI, including EO 14173 and EO 14174. We then discuss setbacks, organizational responses, and strategies for resilience.
Resources for the nerds:
Article about the paradox of meritocracy in organizations and how this can actually fuel bias favoring men compared to equally high-performing women.
The Society of Industrial Organizational Psychology's response related to Title VII and Job-Relevant Employment Practices
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to DEI and Executive Orders
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. I'm one of your co-hosts, Duke. I'm Echo. And I'm Jenny. In this episode, we're going to be talking about some of the recent executive orders from the new administration, where that fits, where that impacts DEI programs, what we're seeing in organizations, and maybe if we have time where Asians fit into the picture.
00:00:31
Speaker
Cool. So I was thinking Echo and Jenny um for this episode, maybe we can kind of start out by grounding our discussion on just some of the EOs that were signed in by the new administration, some recent events and what we're seeing.
00:00:47
Speaker
Does that work for you guys? Maybe we'll just set a little bit of context. So,
Impact of Trump's Executive Orders on DEI
00:00:51
Speaker
so far since coming into office, there have been 137 plus, I just want to say plus just in case there was another one. This episode is going to drop in May, but as of the time of recording, there have been about 137 executive orders issued by Trump.
00:01:08
Speaker
And we're going to be focusing on a few of them that relate to the workplace and how we think about and, uh, deal with and address workforce diversity, equity and inclusion. I know you guys focused on two executive orders. Where do we want to start?
00:01:25
Speaker
um As a side note, I just quickly say something about executive orders. ah So executive orders for audience who are not familiar with it, they're issued by the president of the United States, does not require approval from Congress, whereas like acts and law ah acts need to be passed by Congress and signed in by the president. So just a little distinction there.
00:01:46
Speaker
If we ever dabble into acts versus executive orders. And that's the disclosure or the disclaimer that we wanted to have at the beginning. None of us are lawyers.
00:01:58
Speaker
This is not legal advice. We're just here reacting to the things that we're learning in the last few months, in the last few days, along with everyone else who are having to navigate all this space as well, too. We know its it can be a lot.
00:02:14
Speaker
So with that, let's dive into some exciting executive orders. The first one being executive order 14173.
Executive Order 14173 and Meritocracy Debate
00:02:22
Speaker
one four one seven three So this one was signed actually right into after the second day, so January 21st, and this eliminated illegal discrimination and it wanted to restore a merit-based opportunities across various sectors.
00:02:43
Speaker
And... This really is it says it's aiming at enforcing civil rights ah laws by ending race or sex based preferences often associated with diversity, equity, inclusion accessibility initiative. And it wants to go back to individual merit, hard work, and excellence for these purposes. So of course, this has an effect on federal agencies. And of course, any organization that has contracts with federal agencies, which is a lot of organizations, um may see this trickle down to their own as well, too.
00:03:23
Speaker
Yeah. So that's a lot to unpack there. Right. It is Gosh, where do where do we want to start with this? there's ah um the executive The actual executive orders is a lot longer. That was just a brief summary of it. So we'll link this to in this podcast episode. But where shall we start with this? Or should we go into the other one to the other one that echoed that you have Yeah, we can get into the other EOs. And yeah i do think the two actually work with each other.
00:03:53
Speaker
um I do
Challenges to New DEIA Program Changes
00:03:54
Speaker
believe the new administration actually signed this new EO the day before EO we just mentioned on January 20th this year.
00:04:04
Speaker
And the title name is called Ending Radical and Wasteful Government DEI Programs and Preferencing. um So what the key message that have come in there is basically the mandates, the dismantling of all the federal programs and policies that relate to diversity, in equity, inclusion, and accessibility, which is ah short for DEIA.
00:04:33
Speaker
Asserting such initiatives constitute illegal discrimination and misuse taxpayers' funds. and what this means for the federal agency, they are instructed to eliminate all those DEIA-related offices and positions, including chief diversity officers, equity action plans, and also associated grants and contracts within 60 days.
00:05:02
Speaker
um Since then, There has been lots of legal opposition against this EO, including there are some federal court injunctions where courts in New Hampshire and Maryland already issued the in conjunction injunctions blocking the enforcement of such directives that threaten to withhold federal funding.
00:05:25
Speaker
from education institutions. And there's also definitely lawsuits brought up by the Civil Rights Organization, and not a surprise. I think what we have read in the media is since the issuing of the EO itself, but definitely there's different things that people have been reacting to this EO. Okay, so what I'm hearing is, Dup, your executive order is focused on ah this pivoting back to meritocracy.
00:05:56
Speaker
um or away from DEI towards meritocracy. And then what I'm hearing from Echo
Meritocracy vs. DEI: Ensuring Fair Opportunities
00:06:01
Speaker
is how that's trickling down to programming in the federal government. And I don't know about you two, but what's standing out to me is It just seems like such a cop-out that they're saying we want to focus on meritocracy when DEI, the whole reason behind DEI is that so we can get to a place of merit where people are the most able, the most qualified all fine gets the job. But since that happened, we need these parameters in place to remind people, hey, don't just hire people that look like you or that you like. But that's that's the reaction that I'm having right now. I'm wondering what's coming up for you two.
00:06:37
Speaker
Jenny, I'm feeling the same way you're feeling on this. I feel like this these executive orders, and maybe even more, are just kind of a, I don't know they're a dog whistle or there's something else subtle going on, but if we're talking about like meritocracy and qualified, people of color and women have been qualified for a long time. So I would gladly put folks those folks up against anybody. And I feel like it's,
00:07:06
Speaker
I don't know, it's a, um yeah like like you said, it is a cop out in that ah maybe certain groups felt like they've been disadvantaged or the rights and privileges that they had before aren't enacted anymore so that they feel like maybe this will help them out. But if if I'm reading this directly as it is and for what it what it's saying,
00:07:31
Speaker
It hasn't really, I feel like it hasn't really changed anything. I mean, we're still trying to find the most qualified folks beforehand. I think some of the stuff from the civil rights era has been trying to equal, ah equalize the playing field on that. And that, like you said, or hinted that there had been unequal hiring practices and this evens it out.
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah, just my thoughts on it. ah Plus one to both of you just said there. Also for me as someone who a written new to this history itself. I also did a little bit digging into ah how people were saying this is almost updates to the other EO that is more famous back in the 60s after all the civil rights movement that signed by President Johnson that is referring to eo as EO 11246. That one is the one that think
00:08:28
Speaker
that one is a one that i think A lot of people were referring to that promoting equal opportunity and proactive diversity through affirmative action plans.
00:08:38
Speaker
And to us, that the the recent two EOs is almost the opposite. We're trying to backtrack what we have have done over the past, I would say, 70 shame.
00:08:50
Speaker
which is a shame um um I mean, i think it's also noteworthy or important to add that, yes, we want merit. We want to equalize the playing field and make this inclusive for all, focusing on groups that have been like historically marginalized or left behind.
00:09:11
Speaker
But to play devil's advocate, and you know I've also seen this happen, is sometimes there is a misinterpretation of DEI and there's a hyper focus on certain groups or elevating certain groups and actively excluding other minority groups.
00:09:25
Speaker
So ah we I have seen that. So I am going to acknowledge that that is the elephant in the room. And unfortunately, it often doesn't get a lot of coverage because even from the left, among the left, like people who are liberal and progressive and you know, support equal rights for women and different minority groups, sometimes a lot of them don't feel comfortable ah saying or criticizing these affirmative action programs or DEI programs because then they are worried that they might be canceled or be labeled as anti-black, anti-woman, you know.
00:09:54
Speaker
So a lot of people who have had a little bit of criticism, i mean, they still support DEI. haven't been able to air those. And I think that also contributed to where we are now. So I just want to acknowledge that because DEI is not always interpreted the same way, even though the definition in the literature and the research is it's very clear.
00:10:14
Speaker
Yeah. And i since you mentioned this, Jenny, I'd be curious to get your two thoughts on this because ever since the two new EOs came out, we've seen in the social media, and there are some of the words being cited as, oh, there's no things called DEI anymore. Everything is canceled.
00:10:37
Speaker
And I think a lot of that is subject to the interpretation of the word de what that means. What I have seen in and just like now in my own organization and in some of other organizations that I have been getting in touch with I do think there's a general message that people still value diversity, still value inclusion, still value the equity.
00:11:01
Speaker
It's the way how we're framing those things becomes more different. And I don't think it's the cancellation of the entire program itself. It's not in cancellation of all those initiatives at all, but rather than like, how can we really promote the equal opportunity for everyone, that makes that become more salient rather than like promoting a certain demographic groups.
00:11:28
Speaker
So to me, I do think there is a misinterpretation and almost a causing some damage on some of the some of the initiative that we have been doing for a long time, almost like misinterpret what it it means.
00:11:45
Speaker
I have a question for both of you, because something that just came up based on what you were saying about diversity, equity and inclusion and how people value that across the aisle. I think of those three, i think the most contentious one for me is the equity part, because I think all of us, even whether you were a Republican or Democrat, left or right, I think all of us realize that the U.S. is diverse. Like we're not going back to the way things were in the 1950s.
00:12:08
Speaker
Inclusion, making everybody feel included, making sure that everybody has equal opportunity. I think everybody can get behind that. But I think it's the e equity part that i think trips up a lot of people.
00:12:19
Speaker
What do you think?
00:12:22
Speaker
um Yeah, great thought on that, Jenny. i was going back and, you know, thinking about what you mentioned about the definition that we have in the literature, right? When you say DEI and what that means, and sometimes it's DEIA, DEIJ.
00:12:36
Speaker
There's slight variations here and there. And it's kind of a hodgepodge of things, I think, when it comes to organizations, because they get to interpret and put out ah their own DEI statement if they have one to market and promote and whatnot.
00:12:51
Speaker
And I think given the recent executive orders, some are trying to stand up to the administration by keeping DEI. And I think while others are actually trying to pivot and change and changing their DEI programs or statements to inclusion or culture and inclusion. So I think Or just getting rid of it. Yeah, I think mainly part of, because of it's federal ah federal contracts that they may have and they're afraid of losing it. We've seen, I think, the Trump administration try to take away $400 million dollars from Columbia and I think maybe one or two billion from Harvard. So there are huge financial implications for going up against this current administration and some institutions are just don't want to do it.
00:13:40
Speaker
yeahp And some companies, I think, are using this as an example just to get rid of DEI because they might not rely on the government for any funding, but they're just using this as an excuse to get rid of it. A lot of organizations don't know how to do the equity part. you know How do you distribute equity? How do you right the wrong of the past without angering the members of the majority?
00:14:03
Speaker
Absolutely. One thing that also got me
Political Leverage and Historical Discrimination
00:14:06
Speaker
thinking and um this entire movement on promoting meritocracy, which has been the key message that the President Trump has been sending to everyone.
00:14:17
Speaker
I do think there are research that psychologists has done in the past has been illustrated both the examples academically and in practice how some of the belief and values in meritocracy sometimes actually harm how people react to some of those up from actions and ah affecting how they think of equity itself.
00:14:42
Speaker
And one of the mainstream theory or the practice that I've seen people, but the scholar in this topic, and we can cite them in our podcast as well, is the belief in meritocracy sometimes makes you feel that everything is fair. We are doing this in the right process.
00:15:02
Speaker
And that somehow actually shapes that actually sparks some of the blind spots that where your organization or your teams or your company actually do have some of the bias towards certain people or towards certain groups of people, that this belief exacerbates blind spots.
00:15:25
Speaker
So um i do think this is something for our listener to be aware There is a reason why IO psychologists, there is this mainstream thoughts on how we think the meritocracy can harm some of the progress that we have made on the DI space. And that was the reason behind it.
00:15:45
Speaker
Can I just add something else to this? you know I know we're talking about meritocracy and for the definition for how we think it ought to be defined, right? But there's a part of me that's wondering like,
00:15:57
Speaker
You know, if we're going to go back to this meritocracy, meritocracy for who? For which groups? Is it for all? If it's for all, that's great. i would love that, you know, but is it really for all? Is this why we put certain laws and or executive orders in place ah historically?
00:16:15
Speaker
ah because Because it wasn't on meritocracy? mean, what what is the intention behind this? There's a part of me that wants to... is wondering about what's underneath this iceberg. What is the intentionality of these EOs beyond defunding certain federal and contractor programs that promote these things?
00:16:37
Speaker
What is the intention behind that? There's a part of that that is skeptical of that it's doing it wants to do what it intends to do. Oh, it's not. It's, I mean, yeah we know that, we know who this is meant for and what really troubles me and pisses me off is that I've seen language used by, um The people in the the current administration talking about how these practices discriminate against white and Asians, especially when when you look at the EOs that target affirmative action in schools, they're like white and Asian students, white and... And again, it creates this narrative that pits us against other groups.
00:17:13
Speaker
Again, he's just using us, Asians, as pawns. So he's claiming us as one of them when it's convenient for them. But Trump was the one that racialized the COVID-19 pandemic that you know sparked anti-Asian hate and anti-Asian feelings and discrimination. So it's mind boggling how he uses us.
00:17:33
Speaker
And I mean like AAPI
00:17:37
Speaker
in this conversation. Jenny, are you saying that we're white adjacent until we're not? Yeah, exactly. Because we're not. Audience, we know our stance. We are not.
00:17:47
Speaker
We are not white. We are not white adjacent. We are people of color. Our experiences differ from other minorities, black and Latino, but there are similarities and there are differences. And I think sometimes even among POCs, we don't always talk about that. And think that's one of the reasons why i saw a lot of Asians kind of shift their views towards the right, because they're like, well, at least they're acknowledging us at least they're acknowledging the fact that not all of these affirmative action programs or programs done in the name of affirmative action are beneficial to Asians.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah, and I think this is where this like, Asians being used as a wedge is really working out really well, because who are you fighting against? We're not fighting against our other people of color, right? Other ah Black and Latino and Latina folks for spots.
00:18:44
Speaker
Really, maybe that shouldn't be the case at all, where it should be, you know, if it's about all these different opportunities, if it's about merit, let's focus on merit, but it's about representation of whoever's around that area.
00:18:59
Speaker
maybe the demographic of the representation should be taken into consideration. How often do we actually think this this opposition against affirmative action is geared towards, is mostly coming from the white group?
00:19:16
Speaker
But in the case that you brought up it sounds like it's actually coming from the groups that historically were protected under the affirmative action plan. And that was the part that got me also thinking like how different thoughts even within those groups are interpreting the the concept of DEI differently.
00:19:40
Speaker
It's fascinating. Okay, so given all the the talk about the EOs, I'm curious to know what what the response has been in your organizations. And um I can speak on on behalf of like what I've been seeing in my institution. Ever since day one, like even in January when the EO started to drop, they started hosting weekly town halls.
00:20:04
Speaker
And the message has been, i attended a few of them, and the message has been consistent in that the message has been continue doing what you do. We're not going roll back our DEI because this is our mission. This is who we are.
00:20:17
Speaker
And so if we stop doing that, then there's nothing left to fight for. Those were the words of our president, which I i really appreciated. And so the message was, if you are doing research or teaching a class that incorporates DEI,
00:20:32
Speaker
then you should definitely continue doing that. So that's been the message that that I've gotten. And, know, that's just sort of been like what I've been seeing in my organization. um If it's okay, I'd like to share what's kind of going on with my organization that I've just joined and some other organizations that I've heard from colleagues in the last few months.
00:20:51
Speaker
So I've been hearing a lot of folks talk about ah rebranding of their departments and changing of their mission statements. So now if you Google their mission statements, the word diversity no longer is there in their mission statements. And then they have something that's very similar that still talks about the mission and the work that they do, but the word diversity is just scrubbed out of there.
00:21:16
Speaker
I've also heard folks who've been hired directly into DEI roles in other organizations, they've just changed the title of that position to kind of make sure it kind of matches the department to do essential work that's required in talent acquisition whatever it may be. and um yeah, it's really, um yeah, part of this is really like, for me, it's like seeing internal and external like scrubbing of DEI of like memorialized like documentation.
00:21:50
Speaker
or at least the external part. There may be internal parts that they have to keep because of rules and regulations whatnot, but external facing materials is has been has changed quite a bit since the EEOs have come out.
00:22:04
Speaker
Echo, what
Rebranding DEI: Inclusivity and Data Reporting
00:22:05
Speaker
about you? oh Yeah, I'm seeing very similar situations in the organization that working in and also some of my friends in my community.
00:22:15
Speaker
the i think Ever since January, there has been a more of a pending status on some of the internal programs, whether it's called DEI programs in the past. I think they're looking for some sort of rebranding on it or some sort of different activity or actions around it.
00:22:37
Speaker
Ever since then, on the reporting side, what we have seen, which also reflects some of those trends, is there has been an expansion on the types of groups that the leadership and the teams have been reporting on that meaning meaning like in the past if there were certain targeted groups, for example, like a US Black or US Latino, there has been an expansion to some of other ethnicity groups. And beyond that, there's also groups on disability and all based like a self ID data.
00:23:12
Speaker
But I've seen there is a trend that expanding those groups that has never been reported in the past. And then on the other side of the house, I'm also seeing there is lot more emphasize on the sense of belonging, sense of inclusiveness than diversity.
00:23:31
Speaker
There's a lot more that wanting everyone to feel being belonged and everyone to feel being inclusive. So I've seen those are the trends that has been reflecting in my own workplace and even in some of the tech community itself.
00:23:46
Speaker
me So you said that they're expanding the the selection of people that they're looking at. Isn't that a good thing? Personally, I do feel like that's more of a positive thing, especially Considering the going back to the original intent on some of the the work in the DEI space, it's not just, in my opinion, should never be focused on only one or two groups, right? And I think we have talked about in this podcast for none of this time that there are issues that the Asian community or also faces in the workplace. And because the lack of analysis or lack of focus of this particular group in the past that has been
00:24:25
Speaker
kind of be ignored. So I'm glad to see that gets expanded. Though I will also caveat, it's also interesting to see how people tell the story. though What do you mean by that?
00:24:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's one thing that we also know that there was a reason historically that, um um I can speak to more on the reporting and Alevik side, that for Asians, one of the reasons that hasn't been become front center of the things is big because Asians are overrepresented in some of the roles in the tech industry. And we know that's that stats from the beginning. So now, because the reporting has been expanded to a lot more groups than ever before, I do think there's a more important role for the company to play on like, okay, now you started to reporting all those groups.
00:25:21
Speaker
What's your focus? what should you be really focusing on? And I think there's a lot of that, not only just looking at the data, but also how you listen to the data, really see what's behind the data.
00:25:34
Speaker
That's important.
00:25:37
Speaker
lot of work for you to do, Echo. Regardless of what happens, right? know, yeah. It's going to be a lot of work. Yeah, sure. Or guess rather a lot of work for all of us really. Someone who wants into it. yeah I wonder what's driving their concern. So if we're talking about tracking the five main you know racial groups in the US, so that would be white Americans, black Americans, Latino and Asian Americans, and I guess Native Americans as well. I mean, that's the group that typically doesn't get included because it's such a small number. but Do you guys track Native Americans in organization?
00:26:10
Speaker
I can't remember exactly, but I think we also have, I'm pretty sure we have an option like a two in two and more races. and And that's also including some of the even like minor racial ethnic ethnic groups status such as the one that you mentioned, Native Americans.
00:26:29
Speaker
And I think usually they don't get to report it because the sample size. Yeah, maybe it depends on the geographical region where the organization is based.
00:26:40
Speaker
That may have an impact on how they report out these stats. You know what I would love to see? De-aggregation of AAPI. So still group us as a group, but then also give us the option to de-aggregate so that we can compare, for example, east versus South Asians versus Southeast Asians.
00:27:02
Speaker
I think when they start doing that, they'll probably notice you know more and more disparities that they're not seeing right now. I think the real challenge is a lot of the organization, as far as I am aware of they were using the self-ID data.
00:27:14
Speaker
And it depends on the data connection um method. I don't think they were differentiated within the Asian groups. At least that's what I've been seeing. Even though we know from literature there are tons of nuanced differences within those groups and the leadership attainment outcomes are very different for even within the Asian groups themselves.
00:27:36
Speaker
I don't think currently there's a way for us to differentiate that. Yeah, unless they start asking for it. Yeah. maybe i feel like there's and there's no standard in in collecting this data just like there's no standard in collecting engagement data like people or organizations you know determine what they want take out they want put in what they want for engagement and the same thing with demographics. I mean, something as simple as that, which is unfortunate, but I totally hear where you're coming from with the, it's nice to have de-aggregated data.
00:28:10
Speaker
there I think there are other organizations have been fighting for that, like historically to to see where, what places, like Jenny, like you said, need have pain points in order to focus on that.
00:28:22
Speaker
You make a really good point about, you know, it not being standardized. Like it's sort of like the Wild West organizations can just do whatever they want with that. um But something that I've been doing recently is I'll ask people their race.
00:28:38
Speaker
um So, you know, the the major category is white, black, Asian, Latino. And then if they choose black, Latino or Asian, I ask them a follow-up question um that gives them the option of like the top five,
00:28:51
Speaker
ethnic groups within that racial group. and So that's just one way I've been trying to capture the nuances and the differences among Asian Americans. Yeah, I definitely see, i mean, there are always ways to connect those data. i I think the question goes back to like, what do we connect this data for? Like, what do you intend to make actions out of it? Because I definitely see there's a decoupling of a lot of those actions that are tiling to racial ethnicity.
00:29:20
Speaker
tying into the gender. So as part of this expansion, I see that's the trend. Well, our response to that would be it's going to highlight disparities that exist within different groups.
00:29:33
Speaker
I know for the Black American community, there is a huge disparity, the difference between recent immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean versus fourth or fifth generation African Americans. And that if you are, let's say, like first generation Nigerian American,
00:29:50
Speaker
you are more likely to have higher educational economic outcomes compared to like a fifth generation African-American. So I know there are distinctions among the Black community. I'm not so sure about the Latino community because I haven't seen anything in the literature when I was looking.
00:30:05
Speaker
I think for us, it's going to show a huge difference in like disparities. And I think that would be a good exercise, especially in the tech industry. I was just going to say, i think the on the moment we get down to like more specific ethnicities, I think there are at least like maybe 30, 40 different like Asian ethnicities out there.
00:30:24
Speaker
So in terms of like collecting that data, like I'm thinking about how organizations are being incentivized. And if they're not being incentivized to do so, why would they want to do so? It's extra data that they have to collect.
00:30:38
Speaker
hold and store somewhere. So what's the, I guess, you know, what's the ah the carrot for them in getting this data if no one's complaining about it, no one's saying anything about it so I hear what you're saying, ah Jenny, about like, if we we got to push for it.
00:30:54
Speaker
But I feel like if organizations are like, there aren't folks pushing for it and within organizations, why are they incentivized to do it if it doesn't affect their bottom line? That's why we need more Asian leaders advocating for this.
00:31:14
Speaker
One question I do have for you two, um have you two seen that there's less emphasis on the representation, like the headcount representation by race as ethnicity itself?
00:31:29
Speaker
to Not in my organization. I think they're still looking into those groups, making those distinctions. Yeah, i'm I'm too new to this organization I'm part of to really have an understanding of it but i always keep in mind like organizations also are a representative democracy of any sort so i i don't i know there's a part of me that feels like maybe there's certain things that are being i don't know it's pushed upon organizations like the organizations don't have to be representative
00:32:02
Speaker
of anything. Like, I don't know if that's that's a hot take that I'm coming off with, but like, they don't have to do, they don't have to do any of this ah unless there's, you know, certain in terms of hiring and and promotion that they're within certain ah acts or laws that are already out there.
00:32:22
Speaker
They don't have to have a representative to portion of whatever that yeah that's that's out there to to my knowledge. Oh, maybe I wasn't being clear with my question. I don't think that's, that was nearly like a hack on by racial ethnic ethnicity.
00:32:38
Speaker
Like, do you have like a diversity goals? For example, you have to reach 20% of the back employees in your organization. And now I'm seeing that being takeoff. No, no, we don't have those. But I think for the student selection, they they have some sort of, they aim for it certain goals. Okay, then to my knowledge, I don't know.
00:32:58
Speaker
That's why we and it's like what we mean internally. and like the We see the headcount representation of different diversity groups, racial ethnicity groups, and we are not reporting that anymore. And we don't have our diversity groups either.
00:33:13
Speaker
Yeah. I know some organizations have a tendency to do that. And sometimes it could be, um, far fetch goals. And I think some of the issues, at least from my perspective with that is sometimes there's no follow-up or consequence with it.
00:33:28
Speaker
So we may have to ah edit this out, but I'll share a little story with.
00:33:34
Speaker
And what they were trying to do. we have, they've been pushing some, uh, or We're pushing ah certain initiatives for more blue collar workers, for more ah general maintainers.
00:33:46
Speaker
And the the current ah percentage of GMs that are women are like one, 2%. And of course, they've then set a goal for it to be 50% within about years,
00:33:59
Speaker
which is really hard to do to go from three to 50% of all general maintainers within the span of about, I don't know, 10, whatever amount of years. i think they were vague on it, but it was just ridiculous. And then when we asked about it, they had no follow-up other than this is what's been set by yada, yay yada, We got to do this.
00:34:21
Speaker
So sometimes it's nice that we have these goals and initiatives, but sometimes they're so outrageous that it's just laughable that you know that they're not going to take it seriously.
00:34:33
Speaker
You know, we are trying to mail push and make it so that's as fair as possible for those who want the jobs. You got to want the jobs too. If we don't have people applying for the jobs, they're not going to get the jobs.
00:34:46
Speaker
Sorry, you know, but we can't force people into jobs that they don't want. so it sounds like it wasn't a smart goal, Doug. It was. On that front, I have to say, like, um for the diversity goal that used to have, again, like, I think this has to be cut out a little bit.
00:35:04
Speaker
We do very thorough, the talent accessibility market analysis to understand the the the total term on it. But also understanding, like, even back then, when we were setting the goal, but the action coming out of it's so hard because in the hiring decisions, in the interview panels, you can't just say, oh because your goal is this, so we're going to hire this, but you know, like all those issues that actually gets backlashed and backfire.
00:35:36
Speaker
In case this makes it for our audience who do not know what TAM means, that's total addressable market. Echo was just rolling with it as if everyone knows, but not everyone may know.
00:35:49
Speaker
But can you just explain what that is? Because I don't know what that is. I think the simple analogy that you could use is when Say, for example, when the organization come up with 50% as a goal, but they did a study and see how many female general maintainer is on the market.
00:36:07
Speaker
And we'll say, hey, we actually have 100 people in this market. That's why we made this goal to be 50%, because we believe there is enough of a female GM be able to almost like on the so supply side to be in the roles.
00:36:23
Speaker
instead of like, hey, we just randomly make up like 50%. Thanks for explaining that. So it sounds like it's ah it's a market supply analysis. Do we have enough XYZ to justify these goals?
00:36:35
Speaker
Yep. Given the time, i also wanted to kind of end on a positive note.
Coping with DEI Policy Changes
00:36:40
Speaker
So I want to ask you, how you know how do we manage ourselves in this environment? Because it is kind of depressing, especially, at least for me, as someone who is so passionate about DEI and does DEI research, I'm feeling kind of down and depressed. And I think the past few months has been a little bit tough. And I'm sure it's been tough for a lot of people who listen to our podcast.
00:37:01
Speaker
What are some ways each of us is managing this stress and what we see in the news and how it's affecting what we do in the organization our work? i would I would say go for a walk.
00:37:14
Speaker
No, ah joking aside, Jenna, you're absolutely right. It's been ah very tough to see all these different EOs come out and a trying to understand the potential implications of it, what it means and whatnot. I just want to remind listeners that if you're in an organization and you have access to your legal department, work closely with them to make sure that you're doing everything in your power to adhere policies and procedures so that you're not... Sorry, I lost my train of thought.
00:37:51
Speaker
Hold on a second. It's Doug's smart home. it's telling him it's time to go to the gym i would say joking aside folks should you know workouts or maybe you go for a walk to clear your head there's got to be a lot of things there was a lot of eos that came out that affects the work that we do but uh keep in mind that we have a lot of folks in the field uh doing the same work fighting ah for the same goal. And then we also have our own internal legal department that we work with.
00:38:21
Speaker
And when you typically work with your own internal ah legal department to interpret and understand the rules and apply the rules, there's ah certain, I think, buffers and benefits that you have ah to talk things out with your own internal legal and possibly external ah legal counsel as well, too.
00:38:42
Speaker
Class one to Doug's suggestion, take a walk, take a deep breath. i think for me, personally, what I have experienced is um it's also an opportunity for anyone who are actually passionate this work to do this right.
00:38:58
Speaker
What we have seen is not an entire scrap of everything that we have done, but almost like a reset on what's important for us. So I see that also there's some like silver lining um around all those clouds.
00:39:14
Speaker
So that's my work. Yeah. What about you, Jenny? I echo everything you said about you know I'm trying to prioritize my mental and physical health through all this.
00:39:28
Speaker
um But the other thing that I'm trying to focus on is just reminding myself of what I can control and what I can't. And I think that's helpful. And you know I'm going to continue doing what I can within my own realm of control.
00:39:43
Speaker
And so I'm going to continue doing research. I'm going to continue doing disparity research because it's not an ideological issue. It's not racism against... white people. This is meaningful research because disparities exist.
00:39:55
Speaker
And so I'm going to continue doing what I do and, you know, basically honoring what I set out to do. On that note, what does ChatGPT have to say about we end? So
Haiku Reflection on DEI and Executive Orders
00:40:07
Speaker
I asked ChatGPT to write a haiku about the recent executive orders on eliminating EEI programs in the federal agencies and its impact on the progress in the U.S. And U.S. workplace had had to make in the DEI space.
00:40:24
Speaker
Mandate fee fades to dust. Equity's roots face dry winds. Hope leans on the past. Yeah, I guess the you know with EOs, they're not, I think like we mentioned, laws passed by Congress and signed by the president. They're just signed in by the president, and it may fade.
00:40:45
Speaker
It will fade.
00:40:47
Speaker
Look, we we lean on the the on the past for hope and the future as well, too. Thank you again for tuning in to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. We'll catch you on our next episode. Bye, everybody.
00:41:02
Speaker
Bye, everyone. Bye, everyone.