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Real Talk with Leaders in the Field: Cross racial solidarity with Lea Lynn Yen
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In this episode, Jenny and Eccho welcome Dr. Lea Lynn Yen to explore Asian American perspectives on affirmative action and corporate DEI initiatives. Dr. Yen shares insights from her research on the model minority stereotype and colorblind racial ideology as they relate to affirmative action. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on the complexities of racial dynamics and the importance of cross-racial solidarity in fostering better workplace
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of Healing In Plain Science, All Things Asian. I'm Echo. And I'm Jenny. And this episode, we actually have our honored guest, Lin-Ning.
00:00:17
Speaker
We are missing our other co-host, Doc, but ah he will catch up in the next episode with us.
Academic Journey and Research Focus
00:00:24
Speaker
Okay, let me do a quick introduction of our guest speaker today.
00:00:28
Speaker
So Dr. Lin-Ning Ng is recent graduate professor from Teachers College, Columbia University, from the Social Organizational Psychology program. Her research and practice spans in areas like organization development and change, diversity, equity and inclusion, and also talent management.
00:00:48
Speaker
Prior to TC, Nene received her Master of Science in Industrial Organizational Psychology from San Francisco, State University and completed her undergrad study at Pomona College.
Research on DEI Barriers and Asian American Perspectives
00:01:02
Speaker
Linh is passionate about understanding how dynamics between organizational systems and employees leading to improved individual, team, and organizational outcomes, and had worked at organizations such as J&J Guardian Life and Zoera.
00:01:19
Speaker
Her research has largely focused on understanding barriers of support for corporate DEI programs. In her dissertation study, Nene specifically sought to understand the perspectives from the Asian American community.
00:01:33
Speaker
regarding their beliefs about affirmative action and the corporate DEI efforts. Such a timely topic, given the current climate around those topics. And that's one of the reasons why we invited Lynn to our podcast today to talk about her dissertation with us.
Personal Motivations and Dissertation Topic
00:01:50
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast, Leland. I'm so excited to chat about this. All right. So where shall we begin? Yeah, I can start just a little intro to why I chose this topic. I think it would be um very relatable to a lot of the listeners. You know, I think...
00:02:07
Speaker
As Asian Americans, we get looped into the affirmative action conversation a lot, whether it's the media saying that we are victims of, you know, affirmative action, whether we are beneficiaries, it seems to be a little um abstract. Sometimes it's hard to say, and a lot of it has to do with just how racial relations have been in this country for you know several decades.
Model Minority Stereotype and Research Approach
00:02:33
Speaker
So it's very, very hard to talk about the topics of affirmative action and DEI without really addressing that history, and I'm i'm really excited to chat about that a little bit today.
00:02:43
Speaker
But for me, you know, when they say research me-search, this was very relevant because i um I moved back to California from New York a few years ago, and we had a pretty big election ah for House of Representatives election. And i live in a majority Asian American, East Asian American neighborhood, and our congresswoman was running on the platform of opposing affirmative action. That was a very big you know um talking point for her.
00:03:15
Speaker
And I have been, you know, I have a lot of friends and family who are all over the spectrum in supporting affirmative action, supporting DEI, just kind of a lot of them also believe that affirmative action should should have been struck down. um But I also have lots of friends and family who are like very strong ah proponents of affirmative action. So I was just so curious to see if, you know, evidence if I could go into the literature and find what might be some of these aspects that cause us to have different stances on these issues. And it has just been an incredible learning journey for me. And I'm,
Research Challenges and Stereotype Navigation
00:03:52
Speaker
yeah, I'm very excited to talk a little bit about what we found in my dissertation.
00:03:56
Speaker
That is very true. Research is me-searched there. Well, should we dive right in? Or do you want to talk a little bit about like what set you up for your dissertation topic? Because it's a very specific topic.
00:04:08
Speaker
Yeah. um I think... One of the exciting things about my dissertation when I was approaching it is that there's a lot of talking points out there already. it's if You can do a quick Google search about Asian Americans and affirmative action um and quickly find a lot of results. and What really struck me was when I looked into it, there was a lot of conversations about the model minority myth, the model minority stereotype. I just started doing a lot of research about it. It's definitely a stereotype that I have heard of. It's definitely something that I would say is um
00:04:46
Speaker
enforced in my family and a lot of East Asian American families to see that there has already been a lot of especially sociological and anthropological research on Asian Americans and the model minority stereotype. i was excited to see if I could apply it in more of an you know organizational research setting.
Impact of Stereotypes on DEI and Affirmative Action
00:05:03
Speaker
And with that, I brought in DEI because especially in the last few years, affirmative action and race-based DEI efforts have kind of been lumped together as kind of race-conscious practices. And i think one of the The big ways that we saw that was after the 2023 Supreme Court decision on affirmative action, the one of the immediate reactions was, what is this going to mean for a corporate DEI?
00:05:29
Speaker
A lot of organizations, um knowing that that decision was bounded for you know higher education outcomes, they already had a sense that there was going to be backlash for corporate DEI as well.
00:05:45
Speaker
So... Yeah, my research um then brought in corporate DEI. That's always been an interest of mine. But i think it was like two, it ended up being two slightly different avenues. I think one, I wanted to extend the research that was already there on Asian Americans and the model minority stereotype and affirmative action. And then I wanted to just completely explore DEI because I think if you go into a Google Scholar and you search you know Asian Americans' opinions about DEI programs in organizations, there's basically nothing there.
Barriers to DEI Support
00:06:21
Speaker
especially specifically on Asian American and audiences. So it's just, yeah, it was a big journey of exploration and yeah a little bit of just scholarly interest, but definitely a lot of personal interest. And it ended up being just the perfect opportunity because the model minority stereotype is a stereotype. And I know we have all worked with the wonderful Dr. Karen Block, who is an expert on stereotypes. So I knew that this was going to be the perfect setting for me to explore this further.
00:06:53
Speaker
I'm curious, Leland, what's your ethnic background? Oh yeah. So I'm second generation Chinese American. Chinese is my ethnicity, but my parents are Taiwanese-American, so they immigrated ah from Taiwan back in the 80s.
00:07:10
Speaker
And I was born and raised in California in Orange County in a very, very especially Korean-American community, but there were also a lot of Taiwanese-Americans and Chinese-Americans in my family. so Sorry, in my neighborhood. So definitely grew up in a pretty diverse area.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah, what I was trying to add earlier was Nying was also in the same cohort as I am. So knowing that she almost abandoned all her previous research that in this program and then devoted or started a new topic, I just feel so inspired by her courage because for anyone who are not familiar with our program, it usually takes much longer time if you start a topic that is not ah directly related to your previous research projects that you already passed on on the journey.
00:08:02
Speaker
um So that's a courage that I see from Nene. I just wanted to call this out for our listeners. You're opening Pandora's box because now I got to ask, and what what was your previous research? but Just like in a nutshell.
00:08:13
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So always talk about, you know, what is the through line in my research? So
Belief Systems and Opposition to DEI
00:08:19
Speaker
it feels a lot like three very separate projects. But the thing that they all have in common is I'm very interested in what are the barriers to support for ah diversity, equity and inclusion efforts? um I think...
00:08:34
Speaker
You know, when I started primarily doing research in this program, it was around 2020 when I first started like the first research. So it was during the explosion of DEI programs. And then just within the last five years, you know, we've seen ah very tumultuous corporate journey of DEI. So I'm always just very curious. You know, I personally am a big proponent of DEI programs, um however you want to call it. You know, some corporations call it like inclusion and belonging. um Sometimes it's under employee engagement, but however it's packaged, I'm just a very big believer in the importance of employee inclusion, of employee wellness, and them being able to feel that they can bring their best at work, however that is.
00:09:33
Speaker
I'm just always trying to add, I guess, to the complexity of the conversation around the like support or opposition to DEI. I think it's not always just the I'm all for or I'm all against. I think, you know, everyone has a different background. Everyone has different experiences from their personal lives that they bring to work. And that might, you know, shape whether or not they support, you know, are from ah DEI or not.
00:10:06
Speaker
um So my first project, just really briefly, was about masculinity in organizations. um Our Echo might remember there was ah period of time that that was a major research area in our work group.
00:10:19
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah. So I was very curious about like masculinity stereotypes at work and whether or not if you triggered... negative affect. we it was a very nice way of saying it. But basically, if we provoked, you know, ah threat to masculinity for men in the workplace, like, would that affect their support for gender fair workplace norms?
00:10:46
Speaker
So that was kind of a subset of DEI. And we did find that, you know, it was actually very easy to provoke quote unquote fragile masculinity and that there there was a bit of a mediating effect, but um it did end up triggering like lowered support for a certain ah DEI efforts. So I was very curious about, you know, like, what what are the stereotypes that people, you know, based on their identity feel like they have to live up to? And I feel like that became sort of a through line into this dissertation, because as an Asian American myself, with the um expectations that were held for me by my parents, I definitely feel like
00:11:25
Speaker
There is a stereotype to have to be very high achieving. That's what we have to live up to. So I was very curious about how how the conversation about meritocracy and individual effort will you know get you where you want to go, how that is kind of perhaps at odds with things like DEI and affirmative action, which sometimes people see as a resource distribution effort that's not entirely in line with, you know, merit.
00:11:55
Speaker
um Shall we hear more about your actual dissertation? Because I already started hearing that a little bit
Cultural Impacts on DEI Attitudes
00:12:02
Speaker
earlier. um What did you find? what What's some of the the bigger takeaway that you came from it?
00:12:08
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So I think the narrative of my dissertation is how do your beliefs about merit and the beliefs about whether or not you know America is ah meritocracy, you know a fair system where people, where individual effort will get you, is analogous to outcomes.
00:12:30
Speaker
Whether your belief in that ah will be related to whether or not you support or don't support, you know, affirmative action or DEI. Based on merit, especially for um Asian Americans, the two constructs that really popped out in the literature to me were one, the model minority stereotype. So that's very...
00:12:49
Speaker
specific to Asian Americans in the United States. And the second one was colorblindness. So racial colorblindness or colorblind racial ideology is a really big construct in America, in all aspects of American sociopolitical, you know, um history, but also just contemporarily.
00:13:11
Speaker
You'll hear a lot that, you know, America is a colorblind country, we have a colorblind system, we have a colorblind constitution, the word colorblind is everywhere. But colorblindness, you know, is kind of generally the idea that you don't believe that race and racial categories um should be acknowledged or it should be um that race that you should like consider race in like decision making or in outcomes.
00:13:43
Speaker
So basically people who are colorblind, this is very generally, you know, um colloquially people who are who believe in racially colorblind ideology would be against um affirmative action and DEI, race based DEI, because those are specifically ah efforts that use race and racial categorization to make decisions. Right.
00:14:08
Speaker
so I'm very curious because a lot of times when we talk about being colorblind, that is a term that we use for white Americans in this country and how they approach racial relations.
00:14:21
Speaker
But at least in my personal experience, there's a lot of Asian Americans who subscribe to to colorblind ideology too. And that's sometimes for themselves. They think that, you know, them being Asian American they can ignore that part of themselves ah when it comes to achievement.
00:14:39
Speaker
um They don't want to be engaged in a lot of ah conversations about race. I think there's ah there's a very ah large stereotype that Asians tend to be very apolitical when it comes to race and conversations about race in this country for various reasons.
00:14:58
Speaker
And generally, i was very curious about the relationship between the model minority stereotype and colorblind racial ideology, because those are both kind of about um individual achievement. It's kind of the colorblind idea that individual efforts lead to outcomes. And on the flip side of that, there's also the belief that if you are, if you believe in colorblind ideology, if you believe in the model minority stereotype, it's actually a very victim blaming approach. It's a very much a pull yourselves up by the bootstraps approach of saying that if you
00:15:31
Speaker
We live in a society, if we believe that we live in a society where your effort will get you wherever you want to go, then people who have more, you know, lowered outcomes, um whether it's ah economic, you know, whether it's academic or ah organizational achievement, then that is your own fault.
00:15:51
Speaker
It's not the system's fault. It's an individual effort blaming narrative. So yeah, so long story short, i was curious about the model minority stereotype, racial colorblind ideology and support for these two for Asian-Americans. And what we did find was that they were all very closely linked. And to the audience out there, for both the I.O. people and the non-I.O. people, um the way that this study was conducted is correlational. So at no point am I saying that this belief causes this belief. I'm just saying that these beliefs are linked.
00:16:30
Speaker
And what we saw was that Asian Americans who tended to be who who more strongly believed in the model minority stereotype ah and the ones who more strongly believed in colorblind racial
Diversity Within Asian American Perspectives
00:16:42
Speaker
ideology, they were, as expected, less likely to support affirmative action in higher education and less likely to support corporate DEI efforts.
00:16:52
Speaker
it's a very fascinating ah finding. It's very much... um just extending a lot of wonderful findings that are already out there. um but it's just, it's very fascinating because how we come to this topic is not in a way of blaming Asian Americans for believing in this stereotype and therefore causing potential harm if they're against DEI or affirmative action.
00:17:21
Speaker
It's again, going back to the history of how Asian Americans have kind of been, generally Asian Americans in this country have been kind of shoved into what they call a wedge minority position.
00:17:33
Speaker
where people who have more power in the racial hierarchy have kind of positioned Asian Americans in almost like the middle of the hierarchy, if you will, in order to kind of so suppress a lot of originally civil liberties and to maintain the racial hierarchy as it is. And basically, um,
00:17:58
Speaker
At the end of the day, how I see it is that Asian Americans are an oppressed, are definitely an oppressed population in America. And the way that we have specifically been positioned in the racial hierarchy is extremely problematic and is one of the reasons why I think there is such a big variety of beliefs about affirmative action. Yeah, so Linh-Lin, if I understand, you're saying that people who are colorblind,
00:18:28
Speaker
or they believe model minority as ideology, they're more likely to oppose affirmative action. Do you have a hypothesis like why is that?
00:18:40
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think it comes back to that meritocracy explanation I think, you know, I didn't expand too much on what the model minority stereotype is. so I'll take a second to talk about that a little bit further. But the model minority stereotype is the belief that Asian Americans are the like the quote unquote best racial minority and the best racial minority group in terms of academic and economic a success.
00:19:10
Speaker
And that success is driven by, the stereotype explains it as um by values of high individual effort from people by people from these populations.
00:19:22
Speaker
The way that I would say it is that people who really believe in that idea believe that they have achieved um high success because of their hard work. So other people who don't achieve that same success, that's their own individual fault.
00:19:40
Speaker
So that is at odds with a program such as Affirmative Action or ah or DEI because because the Sometimes misunderstanding or the vagueness about these efforts is that they are giving opportunities based on race that some people don't deserve, so that it's not completely meritorious.
00:20:02
Speaker
um I would like to emphasize that that's often a misunderstanding because, as we know, um affirmative action and DEI comprise of many, many different kinds of efforts. They're not always necessarily about hiring. They're not necessarily about promotions or who gets fired. It's not that simple.
00:20:20
Speaker
In a way, I'm studying this at a very high level, but um i think sometimes those things need to be said that there needs to be a lot of myth busting about what affirmative action and DEI often is before we can really get into these conversations more deeply.
00:20:49
Speaker
Well, speaking about myth busting, um you know, one thing that stood out to me was the fact that this is a correlational study. And what you found was that those beliefs that you just talked about was higher among people who supported colorblindness.
00:21:01
Speaker
But then that also means that people who were low on colorblindness were the exact opposite, right? Yeah. So I think if we can look at it ah from a spectrum of, let's say, colorblind to color conscious. So color consciousness, I would say, would be how much do Asian Americans really understand about racial relations, um whether that's, you know, the the history of immigration, the history of different races um in this country, why why and how different racial minorities in this country kind of have the outcomes or the differences in outcomes that they do.
00:21:43
Speaker
um i think when you are much more conscious of that history of the
Generational and Cultural Influences on DEI
00:21:50
Speaker
realities, I would believe that you are more likely to support DEI and affirmative action because you understand the necessity of cross-racial solidarity in improving outcomes for everyone in this country.
00:22:06
Speaker
Could you talk a little bit about your sample? Because I remember just from reading your research that it was ah quite a diverse sample of AAPI. Could you talk a little bit about that and how that could affect um some of the results that you found?
00:22:19
Speaker
Yeah, um that's a really great question because I would say in a lot of ways, my sample is not very representative or in this in the sense that I'm not going to be able to capture every single um subgroups.
00:22:32
Speaker
in on Asian Americans. I used a platform called Prolific for researchers out there who are interested, but basically I didn't set any parameters about, you know, specifically which, uh,
00:22:47
Speaker
like percentages of groups that I wanted to collect or anything. So I just opened it to any anyone who wanted to take the survey who identified as Asian American. And we did have representation from east ah from people who identified as East Asian, from people who identified as South Asian, Southeast Asian,
00:23:08
Speaker
and a Pacific Islander. I think one one caveat there is, you know, the Asian American Pacific Islander label, that's, you know, something that is talked a lot about on how that should be named and grouped in this kind of research. So i will say, um you know, I i had both Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders in my sample.
00:23:31
Speaker
But it was also um heavily, i believe it was about 50% second generation. So for listeners who are you know familiar with generational status, it's also a like something that I have to consider in this is that the second generation voice is definitely probably overrepresented here.
00:23:48
Speaker
And I myself am second generation Asian American, East Asian American. So I think a lot of the sample represented like experiences like mine. and but it was very important for me to kind of have more voices than people who are just of my experience. So <unk> it's very interesting. I think aside from the ethnic representation, we also had ah pretty good spread of political orientation representation. It was more skewed towards people who identified as more liberal, but the mean and political orientation was about in the middle. So there are people who are more conservative and people who are more progressive. And I think that's also an important just kind of data point there, especially because these topics are so political.
00:24:39
Speaker
They've been conveyed as political. whether it's in our Supreme Court, whether it's in the executive order that our executive branch has been pushing, you know, obviously with the executive order earlier this year on DEI and the government, um very, obviously very timely for this project in particular. But one thing that would be really exciting, I think, to further explore in this research whether that's you know cutting across my data a little bit more specifically or to just kind of expand this research into specifically different you know ethnic subgroups, because Asian Americans have, at least um in the most recent data that I have, they have the largest racial income gap in the United States. So that's more than you know Black Americans, White Americans, and other racial minority subgroups. So when we talk about
00:25:36
Speaker
understanding the variety of opinions, like we have to acknowledge the variety of lived experiences of Asian Americans in this country and how that is a really big factor in not only understanding their support, but who is it going to impact? We really think that, or at least the the huge generalization is that Asian Americans are victims of affirmative action, but there are Truly in this country, if you just look at the data, there are a lot of Asian Americans who are beneficiaries of affirmative action. And that narrative just tends to get lost because of political talking points. Have you actually find a big of a within group difference among your sample?
00:26:16
Speaker
Um... I didn't actually find a big difference between ethnic subgroups. I think when we looked at indicators of achievement, such as position in your organization, ah can't remember exactly how we quantified that, but let's say like you're very um high level in your organization, you're an executive versus you're an intern or individual or like a low level individual contributor, we did find that there were differences in, in that kind of achievement, in
Intersection of Race, History, and Identity
00:26:50
Speaker
relation to how much you believed in aspects such as the model minority stereotype, which was very interesting, because there are definitely people who, who are very high achieving, who then, you know, at the same time,
00:27:05
Speaker
strongly internalize a model minority stereotype as a way of like validating their efforts or as a way of just um I guess um that's also dangerous to think about that like if people already like higher up like they almost feel like they work through their way up there and so they don't believe if an action i actually helped them but maybe it did.
00:27:28
Speaker
um And then the people who actually is needing more of a support, which is probably still in the bottom level of the organization, and now are facing that, the affirmative action being taken away from them. yeah, I feel like it's actually a very dangerous idea we see this divide.
00:27:46
Speaker
Isn't there like a psychological concept? I think we learned about this in our own program and it's like escaping me where it's like, if you achieve something, then it's all about you. Yeah, like self-attribution or something. Yes, yes, that's what it is.
00:27:58
Speaker
Maybe that's what's at play here. That's like, if I am able to become the CEO or like senior VP of ah of a company, that's all on me. like I didn't benefit from affirmative action. Yeah, that could be a good explanation of it.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah, so, you know, it's it's very... It's also just generally very interesting to consider history. Again, everything, when I've been researching this, it's very, very hard to not take everything within the context of racial relations history.
00:28:30
Speaker
um this This makes me think about Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. um i don't know if listeners are you know very like well aware of ah Justice Thomas's story, he, there's a lot of talk about, so so for context, Clarence Thomas is a very, ah very anti-affirmative action, but his previous institutions have come out and said that he was actually a beneficiary of affirmative action ah when he was in college. I think, um I think that's true. i might have to fact check that, but I was reading a book about it.
00:29:07
Speaker
And so for someone who, has received the benefits of affirmative action and then now is so against it. I'm always just curious as to how that happens. And I think it's it's it's very hard to say about like how things were 50 years ago versus how they are now. I think a lot of the then a lot of the narrative around why it's quote unquote okay to stop affirmative action based on the Supreme Court majority opinion is that the world is now fair, or at least it's a lot more fair than 25 years ago when um the affirmative action Supreme Court case was kind of last heard by the Supreme Court.
00:29:53
Speaker
And that's just the reality is that a big part of whether or not you're you believe in affirmative action now versus then is just how much do you think the world is fair now? Like, I think it's called belief in a just world is a construct that a lot of researchers used, but yeah, it's it's just, it's fascinating. So when you talk about people who have maybe like Asian Americans, for example, who are now executives, you know, they probably have like 40 years of work experience under their belt.
00:30:25
Speaker
They have gone through, a lot you know in those decades of seeing how America has treated them, how America has treated Asian Americans, Black Americans, Latinx Americans. I think sometimes that is almost more harmful because they think you know, if we were able to rise back when discrimination was, quote unquote, even worse, like, why can't you do it too, especially when the world is more fair now? So that might lead them, if they have persevered, and they were resilient, and you know, much kudos to them, of course, for their high achievement. But
00:31:04
Speaker
I think that idea of that I've made it so you don't have an excuse sometimes is has resonated within the Asian American community, at least in conversational circles around
Organizational Role in DEI Support
00:31:15
Speaker
me.
00:31:15
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:31:25
Speaker
What do you think the organization should take away from this? When it comes to the findings, aside from implications that you can talk about, you know, stereotype training in organizations when you have those those kinds of trainings, this could be built into that a little bit because we I think we sometimes talk about how Asian Americans are, you know, rendered invisible in the workplace. I know that's a big reason your podcast is named what it is. But it's important to bring those voices in and not just the Asian American voices that, you know, are in line with what mainstream media wants us to believe about Asian Americans. I think it's important to know that Asian Americans are not a monolith and
00:32:11
Speaker
the different kinds of Asian American experiences, the different kinds of stereotypes um are all very important in having at the table where decisions are made.
00:32:23
Speaker
um You can't have a token Asian American and assume that they, you know, are the representative of all Asian American opinions. I think we have to
00:32:36
Speaker
dig a little deeper, especially in organizations that maybe don't have a lot of Asian Americans, to dig a little deeper into understanding that um there are this variety of opinions. And I think especially for organizations who are trying to maybe save their DEI programs, um they have to understand that it's not just a black and white issue, not to be cliche, but there are different ways in which different racial minorities all, you know, have a stake in diversity, equity, and inclusion programs.
00:33:11
Speaker
And they all have to be considered because I'm a big proponent of cross-racial solidarity. i think even if some Asian Americans may believe that they don't need DEI or they do not face discrimination in their organizations, staying silent or not being um you know brought into these kinds of conversations is going to be harmful for other racial minorities as well, as well as within your own racial minority. Maybe um
00:33:42
Speaker
you might feel like you don't need the help, but there might be other Asian Americans who are really struggling and are feel like they are facing a lot more racial discrimination than you in this organization. And you just kind of, it's important for everyone to be a voice for
Conclusion and Closing Haiku
00:34:00
Speaker
um racial minorities and people of color in general and organizations because we have to all rise together basically.
00:34:10
Speaker
I love that takeaway. Thank you so much for your research because I think it also illustrates the fact that not all Asians are alike and there are Asians who do support affirmative action. There are Asians who are color conscious, despite what you know a lot of people like to think that we're not, that we're you know we want to be white or be we want to support anything that's that's against um affirmative action.
00:34:32
Speaker
and So thank you for sharing your research. Yeah. And as usual, I also think that's um probably put us towards the end of the episode. um We have this ritual that we do a haiku for each episode towards the end. So I asked ChatGPT to write us a haiku for this particular episode.
00:34:56
Speaker
um So it start with merit masks the race. Blind to roots of deep divide. Fairness fades unheard.
00:35:07
Speaker
What was the prompt? The prompt is um and ask Chachibiti to give a haiku for meritocracy and opponents of affirmative actions hurts social fairness.
00:35:19
Speaker
So it's not bad. Yeah, it's not bad. It's a lot better than some of the previous ones. Yeah. All right, so with that, and let's definitely thank Nidin again to join us. And I actually forgot to mention Nidin actually joined me live in New York City um this round. And um she is um we're actually to have a dinner afterwards. So I'm excited about that.
00:35:43
Speaker
With that, we'll see our listeners in the next episode. Bye, everyone. Bye. Bye.