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Frugality is the best revenge: Steve Burgess on Living Well in Vancouver on Less (Live at the Book Warehouse)
129 Plays10 days ago
Recorded live at Book Warehouse on Main Street, Vancouver, this episode features author and longtime Tyee columnist Steve Burgess, whose new book Cheapskate in Lotus Land: The Philosophy and Practice of Living Well on a Small Budget is part memoir, part cultural critique, and part philosophical provocation.
Steve is a former disc jockey, television host, and film worker who has spent decades writing personal essays — first for the Vancouver Sun and Vancouver Magazine, then at The Tyee, where he's been a charter columnist since its founding. His previous books include Reservations: The Pleasures and Perils of Travel and the memoir Who Killed Mum? (named to year-end best-of lists at both the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star).
In this conversation, James and Steve explore what it really means to be frugal in one of the world's most expensive cities — and why "cheapskate" might actually be a philosophy worth owning.
Cheapskate in Lotus Land: The Philosophy and Practice of Living Well on a Small Budget — available at Book Warehouse (Main St and Broadway locations) and Black Bond Books
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Transcript
Introduction to Steve Burgess
00:00:08
Speaker
So this week, live at the book warehouse, I am joined by author, former radio broadcaster, infamous Penny Pinscher, Penny Pinscher, former television host, former former host, film director, a face made for radio, have not not face made for podcasts, Steve Burgess. and it's How are you doing today? I'm real pleased to be here. Yeah.
00:00:30
Speaker
pleased that I made it through the crowds. had you know This will may not be heard on the the night, but for those who didn't know, Canada just defeated Qatar for their first ever World Cup victory, and i basically had to cycle through the crowd to get here. ah The crowd was remarkably well-behaved. I feel like the crowd was subdued because I think most of the city didn't even know the the game was actually on until it was about halfway through. yeah but We're here for a very important reason.
Living Well on a Budget
00:00:57
Speaker
A very important reason. Your latest book, Cheapskate in Lotus Land.
00:01:01
Speaker
Philosophy and Practice of Living Well on a Small Budget. Thank you for that. Thank you for taking it for me. And before we get deep into the book itself, which has had a...
00:01:13
Speaker
Not sure the word. I i want to be hyperbolic and say it's had a profound effect on me. But that does feel, to you know, maybe like a recency bias thing. You know, it's's it's charged me up to feel like oh its maybe i can survive living here, you know.
00:01:27
Speaker
but But before we get deeper into the book, I want to backtrack a little bit. You know, I gave you my own version of a bumbling chyron. But i always like to ask guests from their perspective. Right. Who the hell are you?
Burgess's Career Journey
00:01:39
Speaker
Who am I? Well, I'm old enough so that I've done a great number of of things professionally in my life. But I can say that being a writer is what I always wanted to be. Being an author of books is what I always wanted to be.
00:01:51
Speaker
So being an author is, to me, that's the highest compliment that I could be paid is to to be called one. I used to be a disc jockey and a television host, and i was working in film for a while.
00:02:03
Speaker
You know, I set pins in a bowling alley. Oh, my first real job who was a gas jockey. But that was my first job. It was a gas job. Yeah, it is was my favorite job. I would i loved it. What station? It was in Calgary. I worked at a, it was a Calgary co-op. was a co-op gas bar yeah yeah in Crowback. I worked at Gulf, which okay I don't think it's around anymore, in Brandon, Manitoba.
00:02:23
Speaker
Oh. So when I started working radio, I could say, well, this isn't my first station. but but ah But anyway, no, I always, you know, always wanted to be a, a writer and and I hope I get to keep being one because that's what I love to do most. yeah So, you know, as as as you just said, you know, you've spent decades, you know, as a as a journalist, as a broadcaster, you know, in a way you could say it's sort of someone who watches and analyzes other people for a living. Sure. What was it about this moment that...
00:02:54
Speaker
convince you to sort of turn your lens onto yourself and your
Personal Experiences in Writing
00:02:58
Speaker
own habits? Well, full disclosure, I've done that throughout my entire writing career. there yeah And in fact, that's how It's not exactly how i I started, but very early in my writing career, writing pieces for the Vancouver Sun and other publications, ah a lot of what I did was personal.
00:03:16
Speaker
Right. I think it was just, it came naturally to me to be a storyteller. Really, the challenge for me was to branch out from that. Right. It was to stop being so personal. Yeah. And this is a story I've told before, but I do love to tell it, that David Beers, who is the founder of the Taille, where I'm a regular columnist, i've been was one of their their charter writers.
00:03:39
Speaker
It was David Beers who was bugging me for years to try to expand beyond the personal story. Right, Because I was always writing personal stuff and then I was trying, after my first book came out, it was but a memoir in 2011, a book called Who Killed Mum?
00:03:55
Speaker
And then I was trying to get another book deal and I was failing and failing and Dave kept telling me, you need to do more. You need to stretch out to... you know, not just write about yourself, but make it about something larger.
00:04:08
Speaker
So that was the real challenge for me. It wasn't, it wasn't going personal. It was going wide. Yeah. Okay. Dave was kind enough to say, well, once you got it, Steve, you really did get it yeah yeah Because reservations, of pleasures and perils of travel, which was my previous book came out
Corporate and Personal Finance
00:04:24
Speaker
two years ago. And this book, Cheapskate in Lotus Land.
00:04:27
Speaker
They're both very similar in that sense in that they use, I start with personal stories, but then use those to jump off into wider discussions of issues that affect you know society. and And with reservations, it was the travel industry. And with this book, it's personal finance. Yeah. And also not just personal finance, but also corporate finance. Yeah. And how companies like Loblaws, Walmart, and Costco do business. Yeah. Well, and this was this is, you know, I'll admit, you know, when i when I was starting the book and, you know, and and right in in the first, you know, chapter or two, you know, you're talking about you've lived in the same apartment for years and, and you know, and it's in this beautiful area that yeah that for someone like me, you know, i I moved here the first time I moved here in 2010. I was here for a couple of years.
00:05:14
Speaker
moved away and then moved back in 22. And, you know, there's no hope for me to, to, to move into somewhere like, like, you know, anywhere down by the English Bay or anywhere like that. I was just completely priced out.
00:05:27
Speaker
So I will admit the very start of the book, as I'm reading about your setup, I was sort of like, okay, bud, let's hear what your opinion on how to survive in the city. yeah yeah of course Get super lucky. Right.
00:05:37
Speaker
yeah But the, the, the way you reflect not only on that, on that, you know, chance and that and that situation, to also why other people currently aren't able to do
Housing Market Challenges
00:05:52
Speaker
that. Right. Which is, I think, the far more important right exploration. What I really appreciate is that you don't give necessarily declarative answers so much as like, this is what's happening and this is why it's developing.
00:06:04
Speaker
Right. And that's something that I was... i struggled with a little bit. I mean, you know, the the book was the publisher's idea and I really worried about You know, I keep using this example, but i know if you remember Stephen Colbert back when he played the character yes of the right wing. the The Bill O'Reilly version. And he had that book, I am America and so can you. Yes. I love that title. And so in my mind, I was always like, don't be, i am America and so can you. that Don't be like, I am saving money and...
00:06:38
Speaker
Here's my prescription. Because it's like your situation, Steve Burgess, is your own yeah to some extent. So I tried to make sure that I wasn't too prescriptive and wasn't wagging a finger and saying, be like me, because some of some of it is luck. And part of it is just acknowledging...
00:06:56
Speaker
the situations other people are in. Yeah. And and trying to see how people can make the best of of their situation and trying to give advice where possible, but also just examining the situation that people find themselves in.
00:07:09
Speaker
I read it. There was a section of the book that I read the same week that my therapist had given me a very similar piece of advice, which was funny to click, but you were talking about this idea of understanding your impulses, right? You know, and understanding, you know, cause, and you talk about this, you know, for you,
00:07:24
Speaker
There is no impulse to do this or that because it's just kind of where the, you know, I call them the kind of like the the the skating rinks in your brain. You know, some have been grooved in in certain different directions. And for you, those impulses exist somewhere else. And they don't necessarily exist around impulse spending and things like, you know.
00:07:42
Speaker
Whereas for someone else, the first step isn't make a budget. It isn't. It's to...
00:07:50
Speaker
really understand what are your impulses and what are those kind of activations for you to go and just sort of mindlessly, but excitedly do something, whatever it might be. Right. You know?
00:08:00
Speaker
Well, one thing i have gotten to the point where my impulses are for the most part under control, have i have You know, one of the things I deal with in the book is that i have to acknowledge that I'm an obsessive personality. Yes. And that that has a good side and bad side. Now, I have managed to harness that obsessive personality in ways that are beneficial to me. yeah I think one phrase I use somewhere in the book is, it's like getting a tiger because it eats rats.
00:08:33
Speaker
You know, it can it can go very bad. Yes. i It can turn very bad. yeah And there have been times and even relative recent times, history where things have
Personal Anecdotes and Overcoming Obsessions
00:08:44
Speaker
gone bad. Of course.
00:08:45
Speaker
I mentioned, for example, that I used to be a TV host. So there was a time there when I had a little bit more money and I had six months off and that's when I discovered that I love traveling. And when I went to Italy, I discovered that for the first time ever that I began to take an interest in fashion.
00:09:03
Speaker
Oh, So... I can tell you I went a little bit off the rails. And then the obsession switched from good to bad. And I today have a closet full of Italian shoes that never get worn.
00:09:17
Speaker
I ride my bike around. I'm not going to Italian shoes. But they were so beautiful. had to keep buying the damn things. So I'm not immune course to to the impulses that go wrong. But for the most part, yeah, I mean, i had I had a serious drinking problem when I was young. And that was obviously an obsessive compulsive kind of behavior gone wrong ah when I was 24. So yeah, i sort of I sort of got some of my problems out of the way early yeah and know yeah and and started
00:09:49
Speaker
getting closer to the straight and narrow. yeah So, but, ah but it's, um it's a challenge. I mean, if you are someone who's all in or all out, which I am, same yeah yeah it can, it can go wrong. Yes. yeah Yeah. Yeah. I think that might be actually, as you're kind of expressing that I'm realizing, I think that's an element of what,
00:10:12
Speaker
attach you know what I attach to you in the in the book because i have I'm similar. you know I have i have you know um ah other similar conditions and things like that, and the you know obsessive tendencies and things. And so, yeah, it's just that mine aren't necessarily the one-to-one of i overspending and whatever. my you Right. um Well, i mean, I get... i get weird little behaviors the same yeah that I recognize. It's like, okay, this isn't normal yeah what you're doing, Steve. yeah um But for the most part, like hopefully, they're just minor and not important. yeah Like when I was traveling, I'll tell you one that always killed me. I don't think I mentioned it in the book, but when I was traveling, I got, oh, I'm going to save all the hotel shampoo. And they used to give, they they don't do this as much anymore, but they used to give you a little bottle. So what I would do is I would take a water bottle okay and I would collect
00:11:02
Speaker
All of them. I would pour them the little bottles into a water bottle. But here's where it got weird. I got so that I wanted to get every single drop of shampoo. And I would sit there and wait. and I would hold that but bottle and be looking.
00:11:16
Speaker
There's a drop that's going to drop. and and There's one more. And I would be looking at this and going, Steve, if you could have an out-of-body experience right now, and look at what we what would you be seeing? What would you be thinking? You're a crazy person.
00:11:30
Speaker
ah So, but I mean, yeah minor little things like that. yeah Oh my God. That just reminds me. I i haven't traveled much recently, but but when I was, i was obsessed with um the Gideon Bibles.
00:11:42
Speaker
Oh. Love hotel Bibles. there is There's something so entertaining about them to me. um By the way, are they edited? I have no idea. I've never been able because I've never been able to find the same copy twice. Really?
00:11:56
Speaker
They're always weirdly, like they're, maybe not, you know, I mean, I haven't read the whole thing right every time, you know, but ah but it's always different intros, different, you know, different print setups. Yeah, yeah. um And that's what always fascinated me, right? is is It would be sort of like, what's ah what's it going to look like this time, you know? Yeah, yeah. um And then on top of that, I would find it.
00:12:17
Speaker
I would, you know, speaking of out-of-body bizarre behaviors is I started finding, you know, people would write in them. In the Gideon Bibles. Yeah. And they've, you know, I have some that I've, you know, I have a small collection. I've whittled it down. you know, I've got rid of some of them, but, but, um,
00:12:34
Speaker
people have written like I have one that's someone had decided to write their own new New Testament and their new revelation in the the you know liner notes of of the Bible and things like that and so I just find those so fascinating you know. You know honestly I don't know if you if you had enough of those that would be an interesting book.
00:12:53
Speaker
Right. An interesting book like what people have written in Gideon's Bible. That's not a bad idea. Yeah. Yeah. That would be that would be fascinating. It's it's it's always been a personal little Pecadillo of mine, right? you know but yeah no we're We're off topic. The very first book proposal I ever made, I managed to get an agent and we made it.
00:13:12
Speaker
It was going to be called Mutants of Christ. and And what it was going to be was strange variations of Christianity around the world. yeah. Oh, I love that stuff. We couldn't we couldn't tell it we couldn' sell There had been a little boomlet in religious Christian books and it it was over.
00:13:29
Speaker
ah and you know And it is a tough sell when you're writing a book that isn't for a religious audience, but it is a religious themed book. yeah That's a tough sell. Basically a book for me to read. he' Exactly. it's i just I'd
Gideon Bibles Speculation
00:13:42
Speaker
buy the copy. I stopped i've sucked finding them is the other thing. That's why I kind of stopped right why i stopped collecting because ah they stopped putting them. Yeah, I don't think there's as many of them. i don't even know I don't know who the Gideons are. I don't know what their deal is. I don't know if they're still around.
00:13:56
Speaker
I hope they're okay wherever they are. used to know who they were. But yeah, I think they're just like a ah ah Christian charity. Okay. i I think they're basically an evangelical gotcha Christian charity. Maybe I don't wish them super well. is Right. yeah right you know and it's you I wonder, this and boy, now we're just speculating. say we're but We're way off in speculating. But I wonder if the lack of Gideon Bibles these days reflects a change in the ownership of motels.
00:14:23
Speaker
Oh. You know, That's an interesting domino. Yeah. yeah yeah and like I mean, back in the day, they're probably there were probably a lot more white families, Protestant white families. What's the connection and why are they coming in? Yeah. and then And then more and more immigrant families and start buying up yeah and suddenly the Bibles are- Not coming. in not covered Interesting. Oh my I hadn't even thought of that direction.
00:14:52
Speaker
Gideon Bibles. like right hey Gideon Bibles as a theme. like You could have your the things that you'd written in them. like Who are the Gideons? and why are there few why And why are there few work? yeah There's a book there. i was going to say, I might need to cut this part out because I need to get copyrighted yeah for but it gets but you copyright Yeah, copyright, copyright, copyright. He's going to say TM. All rights reserved. Yeah. Back to to you though. right um so So circling back to to something about the book, you know um you you describe yourself as ah obsessively cheap, you know um not somebody who's performing any level frugality. right um
00:15:31
Speaker
Where did that ah awareness first kind of spring up for you? Where did you realize it wasn't just a habit, but kind of ah a core element of of your identity?
00:15:44
Speaker
Boy, that's a good question. um Like, I don't know that I thought that much about it when I was kid. um but But I was definitely doing things when I was a kid. yeah um The first...
00:15:59
Speaker
The first sort of expression of it was that I was an obsessive saver of things, not just money, but things. yeah um Like, for example, when I was a kid, I developed a um a liking for what we called swamp water, which was buying different kinds of soft drinks and mixing. I would do that with Slurpees. Yeah. but yeah yeah yeah Yeah. And so I would buy, I would splurge on big bottles of soft drinks. Yeah.
00:16:28
Speaker
But then what I would do is I'd stick them in the back of my parents' fridge and save them until they went completely dead flat and were useless. But I just, I couldn't use them. It's like, no, no, I'm going to save them. yeah So that obsessive saving goes all the way back.
00:16:41
Speaker
But...
Early Frugality and Saving Habits
00:16:43
Speaker
I know that like my very first radio job, I was 19 years old and I had a drinking problem and this is 1978 I was getting a month.
00:16:53
Speaker
five hundred twenty five dollars a month ah eventually got a raise to five hundred sixty five wo um That sounds like it was pretty good in 78, though. Yeah. Well, my rent was only $150. Right. So you're doing pretty good. that's better than I'm doing now in terms of percentage of income.
00:17:10
Speaker
But anyway, the thing is, you know I drank too much in those days. But by the end of 10 months in Thompson, Manitoba, which was an expensive place to live, relatively speaking, I'd say $650. So I think maybe at that point, I was aware of the fact that I was a good saver. Mm-hmm.
00:17:29
Speaker
Um, and then I, I think maybe I began to, I think a lot of times the way we define ourselves is by looking at other people. Sure. And I began to look at other people and thought, well, I've got money in the bank and they don't. Right. What's that about? Yes. Uh, and so I began to see that, that, that, that was the kind of person I was. I didn't get a car until I was about 26. Oh wow. And one reason was because I looked around at my friends who had cars and thought they're always broke.
00:17:56
Speaker
That was a big reason why i didn't know I didn't... I think I got my first car when I was late 20s at the youngest. yeah know um And i it was for that exact same reason. I was like, like let's it's a waste of money. like i I've got legs, they work. yeah Yeah, and also I was never good at right auto shop or anything. I took home ec.
00:18:15
Speaker
rights i was like i i did get it was that I've talked about this many times with the podcast. I was the only boy in dance class in high school. So I was like, I'm not caramel car. It's like it's got four wheels that turns on. I don't wasn't good at any guy stuff. yeah it was there was a This is true.
00:18:30
Speaker
I think I might've put this in the book. I took a wood shop when in grade eight. I think you had to. And then at the end of the year, The shop teacher actually presented me with a big plaque, a big necklace, a rope so I could hang it around my neck and a big plaque and it was marked Royal Order of Wood Butchers.
00:18:49
Speaker
ah I couldn't, i any birdhouse that I build would be condemned a corny bird could move in i would have been It would have been a crime against nature yeah for any bird to...
00:19:04
Speaker
Three birds killed in house collapse. ah ah So anyway, no, i ah I was never good at that kind of stuff. I love it. yeah no ah Looping into sort of looking at kind of the the Vancouver angle of things, um you know, you live near Stanley Park in Lost Lagoon, you know, one of the most, you know, arguably the most beautiful neighborhoods in North America, like just an and ah unbelievable place to live. um
Purposeful Saving
00:19:29
Speaker
How do you think about the tension around, you know,
00:19:33
Speaker
loving the area that you live in and then the cost that that ah comes with you know most people in that area. Right. Well, you know the thing is, and one of the things I...
00:19:48
Speaker
write about a lot in the book is that ah saving money ultimately becomes a matter of priorities where if you know if you're someone like me you save you know I save therefore I am you know I I save because I'm cheap but once you get to a certain point hopefully you start to examine things and go well wait a minute I'm not saving just to have a lot of money in the bank when I die, um i should be saving for some kind of purpose.
00:20:17
Speaker
And my purpose is one of my purposes developed in midlife is travel. um not worrying about money so that I'm not stressed about money. That's another purpose.
00:20:29
Speaker
But the other thing is once I got to Vancouver, once I got to, you know, I i was working in radio and I worked jumping from radio station to radio station. And I came here to work for the late lamented 14 CFON radio. and um But once I got here,
00:20:45
Speaker
my focus shifted up until that point. It's like, Oh, what's a bigger radio station I can go to. Sure. Then I got to Vancouver and I thought, how can I stay in Vancouver? That's, that's, that became more important. When I got ah fired from my radio job after five years,
00:20:59
Speaker
I wasn't thinking, what's the next radio station I could go to? i was thinking, what do I do here what do i do here in Vancouver? yeah So that becomes a matter of of priorities. So yes, I live in a beautiful place and my priority is to stay there. yeah um And I hope I'll be able to. yeah um I have, you know, the company that runs my building is a very good company. And so I don't, ah knock on wood, but I don't think I have to worry about renoviction.
00:21:28
Speaker
Right. um And so i think hopefully I should be able to hang in there. But but that's... that That is a matter of, it's a matter of identifying what your financial priorities are in life. And in mine, and one of my priorities is keeping my apartment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah um You know, and looking out kind of, Vancouver, I think, I'm with you. i'm i'm I'm in a stage of my life right now where I'm like, I'm in a career transition, but I'm i'm like...
00:21:57
Speaker
what can I do to stay here rather than, you know? um But Vancouver has its own very particular flavor of not only kind of eat economy, but but just wealth, you know? There's the sort of, there's the understated outdoorsy stuff, but there's this kind of like underlying smugness, you know?
00:22:19
Speaker
um Do you find that the kind of like, do you find that the cheapskate culture fits here or is it sort of like a ah quietly radical man to opt out of that sort of like Lululemon $18 cocktail version of the city?
00:22:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's a real good question. And the thing is, I think, I wonder if sometimes if I live too much in my own world to really understand that. Yeah. When you put out a book like this, it's and it's natural that people you're going to draw people to your flag. So I have a lot of people saying to me, I'm like that too, I'm like that too. yes um But i sir I don't think that I went into writing the book thinking this is an expression of Vancouver. Of course, yeah. um
00:23:09
Speaker
But i whether it whether it's a Vancouver question or a larger question, I don't know. To me, it's more like a larger cultural question. yeah Like the the culture of materialism versus the culture of something closer to simplicity. It doesn't have to be simplicity. But the idea that um consumption is not the be-all, end-all, I think that's something that's part of Vancouver. yeah um And then there is also...
00:23:39
Speaker
in Vancouver and beyond Vancouver, that culture of acquisition. um And I've never never identified with it. I've never liked it, never understood it. um and and so But whether i like when I wrote the book, I'm not sure that I was really aware of whether I was going to be tapping into a bunch of like-minded souls. Sure. um Or not.
00:24:09
Speaker
um I hope I am. Yeah. yeah i hope I am That actually, but that sort of builds right into the next question. yeah Just to kind of keep digging at that a little bit, you know, you've been here since, you know, late, late eighties. And, and, um and I'm curious, you know, what have you watched happen in the city in regards to its relationship
Cost of Living in Vancouver
00:24:29
Speaker
with money? um And, and what do you think that's done to the people's sense of what a normal Vancouver life is sort of Quote, what's supposed to look like?
00:24:40
Speaker
Well, ah there I mean, it's it's not exactly in News Bulletin that the city has become more expensive live in. Now, every everywhere... Hot, hot take here. Ladies and gentlemen, we interrupt this broadcast. Do not panic. Steve Burgess says that Vancouver is more expensive now.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:05
Speaker
The film at 11. No, and like the thing is, you know, everywhere has become more expensive, yeah but I think Vancouver is ahead of the pack. Yes. In terms of greater expense.
00:25:18
Speaker
um and And a lot of people, I think with reason, point to x Expo 86, that kickstarted development um and really changed the city.
00:25:30
Speaker
i I really think, you know, one book that I pulled out of the library as um as research for an upcoming project, which I can maybe talk about later.
00:25:44
Speaker
But I pulled out Guy Bennett's Guy's Guide to the Flipside. I don't know if you know it. it's a big yeah I remember, I know the name, yeah the like the author. i know the not yeah the Guy Bennett, he went on to direct films as well. Yeah, that's I think that's where I know his name. Yeah, he's he's still with us too. His daughter, Sonia, had a a real film career. But anyway, um He wrote Guy's Guide to the Flipside, and it it was self-published in, I think, 86 or 87, and then it was picked up by somebody. um
00:26:18
Speaker
I think Arsenal Pulp. Okay. And because it was popular enough as a self-published book. God, that's impressive. and but Yeah, no, I know. lot of yeah Very few people get that. Terry Fowles did it with big success.
00:26:31
Speaker
But um you look at that book, Talk about a bygone Vancouver. It was written before Expo 86. And um man, oh man, it's Vancouver.
00:26:47
Speaker
He's focusing on the sleazier part of it. Of course. Sure. But oh my goodness, it looks like a more down marketplace. Right. yeah you know Yeah. Things that neighborhoods and businesses that would just never survive the onslaught of real estate prices.
00:27:02
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, that just the value of land and that's was, is like a wildfire. yeah It just burns through neighborhoods. It's a scourge.
00:27:13
Speaker
Um, You know, i here we are on South Main and I'm just so thrilled that South Main is still has its character. yeah You know, I just, like a lot of people, I'm sure i just live in fear that somehow land prices going to burn through here and and everything's going to be selling stores. It feels like they're trying to, wrong you know, like they're really, a lot of my friends live on Main. I live way out in Marple. I live on the boonies just right for to try and save money, you know, but ah but but all my friends on Main, you know, they're,
00:27:42
Speaker
They're living in constant fear of getting renovated. And they're basically like counting the days because they yeah at this point it's inevitable. yeah and and But the thing is that the thing that sucks the most for them is that it's like there's not really anything that's actually going in in its place. right It's just like development for development's sake. And it's just this this flattening and this kind of like...
00:28:04
Speaker
I don't know. it's it's I've described it a few times on the show as this idea of like just turning everything into the Apple store. you know It's just making it just flat glass, boring, soulless. It's all less frictionless. I mean, a lot of people talk about, they use as the the showcase street for that is Robson Street in the sense that Robson Street used to be, and this would be before your time, but I remember it, used to be something called the Robson Strasse. And it was European delis and it was schnitzel restaurants and quirky businesses.
00:28:35
Speaker
And now it's basically, well, it turned into the same stuff you see in the Champs-Élysées or any any other... it just a mall. Yeah. Yeah. Now, having said that, one you can't deny that Robson has a certain life and vitality to it. Sure. um But nonetheless...
00:28:51
Speaker
Give me a place like South Main any day. Yeah. You know, there's a barbershop just down the street where you can sit in a Spider-Man car yeah and get your hair cut. Now, I asked her and she said, if you can fit in a Spider-Man car, we will cut your hair. Yeah.
00:29:07
Speaker
So if you are small of stature, yeah age is no barrier. yeah and you can sit in a Batmobile or a police car. Risk it. Get your haircut. yeah Oh, and by the way, um get this plug in because this was a shocking moment. A shocking moment at the book warehouse.
00:29:24
Speaker
I came in here once. We are at the main street location. We are almost directly across the street from Hawker's Delight, which is my probably my favorite cheap restaurant in all of Vancouver. And the staffers at the book warehouse that I was speaking to across the street from Hawker's warehouse did Hawker's Delight did not know that it existed. never been they hadn't They didn't even know it was there.
00:29:46
Speaker
Oh, my God. They didn't even know it was there. um And it's it's a fabulous place. And the prices are still reasonable. Malaysian food, Hucker's Delight, South Main, near...
00:29:57
Speaker
ah King Edward. haven't been I have to admit, I haven't been back since I i went vegan last year. Oh, okay. A little over a year ago. um and They have vegetable fritters, though. I was going to say, I feel like I can go back. i just A lot of places that i used to love, i don't go back to because I'm just like, it's going to break my heart when I can't have it. I can't remember now. Someone is going to out there listening to this is going to shut me down. But I'm trying to, the Gado Gado salad.
00:30:24
Speaker
I'm trying to think if there's a meat element in that. I'm not sure if there is. I mean, I'll bet if there one. sure there's options, right? Yeah, there's options. Yeah. So, yeah. That place is iconic. It's wonderful. And shame. Shame on the book warehouse staff. We've got to get out that shame belt. Who not know that it was there.
00:30:43
Speaker
um But yeah, no, yeah the the the the the scourge of of ah of real estate prices is is something that just seems relentless. and And you just hope against hope that the city can retain its character.
00:31:00
Speaker
it's It's something, so something I've been... kind of digging in both on the show and then on my own time is around this idea of like, you hear often about this idea of like the loneliness epidemic and things like that. And I actually don't think that that is real. I don't think it's actually a loneliness epidemic, at least in the way that we frame it. I think that it's a ah sort of a societal isolation and and and we're the things that we're participating in it willingly.
00:31:29
Speaker
um yeah Because there's things like, you know, there's There's data that's showing that a huge sort of trigger for um feelings of loneliness, feelings of lack of connection is overconsumption. Right. and And, you know, we... we We buy things to kind of like show others and to show ourselves who we are or, you know, to try and show who we belong to or or these kinds of things.
00:31:56
Speaker
But they end up not filling the space that we're actually trying to fill. Right. Right. um and am I know it's irrational, but I get angry when I see pickup truck ads. Exactly. I get angry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like...
00:32:09
Speaker
Who is falling for this? Somebody is because they they wouldn't keep running the ads. Well, and they're everywhere. And they're everywhere. yeah You buy this truck and you will be this kind of person. Yeah, I mean, that to me is that's that's the insipidness of most advertisement. It's like if you you know get this haircut and you're going to get laid. Now, the thing is, at least with the truck thing, okay, it's...
00:32:29
Speaker
I don't support buying the huge trucks, but at least you have a truck. The worst one now is the sports betting and the and the online casino. yeah Because that's the same thing. It's like, be a high roller. And it's like, you fools.
00:32:44
Speaker
like They are just playing you like fiddles. yeah and and you And in that case, you don't end up with a truck. You don't end up with nothing. you Exactly. You're lucky if you have that cardboard but right cardboard box. end it open i'm I'm curious, you know building out of that, do you...
00:32:59
Speaker
do you think that, you know, cheapness, you know, said non-derogatory, right? yeah right you know But cheapness, yeah. Do you think that, do you think that it'd be its own kind of isolation or do you find that opting out of this kind of consumption culture actually helps connect to, a you know, ah a different type of people or maybe a different community that that you wouldn't necessarily have access to? Well, that's a big, um it's all the way you play it. That's a big topic. I mean, there's no doubt it can be isolating. And I think in my case it was, I'll tell you this, um I've said it before, when the pandemic hit, my life did not change one bit.
Anti-Consumption Lifestyle
00:33:41
Speaker
Because I'd already stopped going to restaurants and I'd already stopped going to cafes. yeah I spent all my time at home and now I was getting government checks for that. So it's like, this is okay. yeahp um So for me, ah frugality did become...
00:33:58
Speaker
a means of isolation. um But I also know that in writing this book, I talked to um people from the Buy Nothing movement yes and also people from the Freegan movement. And these are people who believe very much in community and they believe in in exchanging and helping people out. So there's no doubt that having an anti-consumption lifestyle can put you in touch with your people and can be um a very social thing to do.
00:34:27
Speaker
I didn't For me, it's like i'm i' maybe I'm more antisocial to begin with. um So i I didn't do that. But I was suppressed i was surprised. either there There was Michelle Gammage, who was a fellow Thai writer.
00:34:42
Speaker
She was talking to me about how like she would get people would be cutting her hair. you know She would go online and say, anybody... Yeah. When i cut my hair and... The the Buy Nothing groups actually are are some of my favorite things. I found like a... because they do like just for the neighborhood. So it's like, you know, i' I'm part of the like Buy Nothing Marpool and I love those people so much. i I don't know a single one of them by name, most people garbage with names, but like anytime something pops up, please yeah you know, and everybody's a block away. So it's beautiful. It's very, it's it's a, that's a great community thing. And you know they talk about community fridges. Yeah. You know, ah they take some, leave some and everything.
00:35:21
Speaker
I don't know if you saw this online. Somebody started a movement. We need to put a stop to the free libraries. You know, like, it's like... ah talk to stop we We need to stop the insidious spread of free libraries. Who knows who's going to be reading Dan Brown da Vinci's Inquest in your neighborhood because some irresponsible person put it in the free library. yeah ah It is parody. I was going say, I really hope that they were they were. I hope they do better, do you? Yeah. like go it well It's parody, but it's true. It's like, stop it. right Stop the sharing of books.
00:35:57
Speaker
seems like good i've ah My favorite part of the free libraries, this is such a tangent, but my favorite part of free libraries is seeing the repeated, but like the ones that are always there. Right. And then, but then sometimes you just get like a lottery ticket winner. Like you just, you find something where you're just like, wow. Right. You know, love those. They're the best. There's a story, this is, again, now we're going down rabbit holes, but there's a a chapter ah in the book about thrifting. And I talked to a Victoria fellow named Marcus Pollard. um And talking about where, the only reason I mentioned is he mentioned rare books. He was going through a thrift shop and he found...
00:36:33
Speaker
first edition of At Swim Two Birds. And this is a book that was published in in the 30s. And he knew that it was a first edition and he knew that there was only 238 of them all night because the warehouse where the first editions were held was bombed by the Nazis.
00:36:51
Speaker
And then after the war it became... a cult hit. oh And so it went back into print. yeah yeah Sold that thing for over $4,000. But yeah he was lamenting the fact that he, because he had the knowledge, he spotted that this was a first edition, but he says, now there are apps.
00:37:09
Speaker
And people can just go through and click. Right. say, is this a person who is interested? You don't even need... See, for me, it's like not even... you know i go to them not thinking like, oh... you know I mean, sometimes you find something crazy like that. For me, it's just like, you know you find a book that you're like, oh, I haven't thought about that in 30 years. or on Or I didn't even... you know oh I've been meaning to find that. or you know That's the way a thrift store ought to be. But now a thrift store is like a scavenger hunt. It's like playing the stock market. yeah You're buying stuff to make a profit.
00:37:35
Speaker
um And so the whole nature of thrifting has changed a great deal. Yeah. and I feel like that that that expands too. That gets me thinking of things like, you know, I was just talking with my partner about something the other day about how like adults have found a way to ruin everything. Everything. But everything fun, right? You know, yeah like like adults have managed to ruin Pokemon cards. They've managed to ruin, you know, video games. They've managed to ruin comic books. They've managed to ruin toys because like, you know, the the little boo-boos and the whatever's, you know, like even like, um you know, we both use these Neato, they're like little squish toys, right you know, and right they've now become the new fad and now they're collecting them and um and we use them because we're both autistic.
00:38:16
Speaker
And so we use them for like emotional regulation. Right. Yeah. But now they're like being banned because. you know, people are going crazy and collecting and they're being banned from schools. And so it's, you know, it's, like you know and it's just like, you've, you've found a way to, you know, make this thing that's supposed to be just like fun and nice. You've suddenly now been like, how do I make money it? Right. Right.
00:38:38
Speaker
And then you ruin it for everyone. Now, the person, of course, who was selling the object originally wanted to make money off it. But nonetheless, there's a different there's a different level of commercialization, monetization. There's tears, yeah right? Yeah, exactly. i think that I think there's one thing to be said for like, I've made a thing and I'm selling it. yeah There's a different thing but between being like, okay, you're doing all that. I'm going insert myself in the middle and I'm going to find a way to make it harder for you to get it and harder for the person making it to sell it And not only that, it's like when when when you do have an artistic product that achieves that level of fame, good luck not having that bleed back down and corrupt you and your process. Well, exactly. you know exactly ah
00:39:22
Speaker
You know, you're going to start cranking it out. You're going to start finding some way to crank it out. Yeah. like a widget. You're right. yeah and i Yeah, I mean, who has the strength of character and the, the you know, unity of purpose to maintain i mean it's their process? mean, it's it's that's the inevitable poison of capitalism. right you know it's yeah the Capitalism cannot go anywhere other than fascism. But but that's's that's a can of worms we don't need to go down.
00:39:52
Speaker
So something I really related very, very on a personal level with the book was, you know, you talk about you live alone. You have no spouse, no kids. You know, I live alone. I got divorced and I went never living with someone ever again. And my... my My stepmom of all people was incensed by that. actually five right you know ah She was like, what if you meet someone else? And I was like, well, you know, people are always trying to fix me up. Hopefully they have a nice place that they like staying at because I will be there. you No, i like I do think of that. I mean, that's a financial ah burden. The fact that I, you know, but it's, to me, I have to think about it just in terms of sheer expense.
Living Alone and Frugality
00:40:32
Speaker
That's my greatest luxury is living alone. That's exactly. And it's worth it for me. And so I'm curious, building on that, do you find that
00:40:41
Speaker
You know, is it easier to be, you know, I've written in all my, you know, my questions, I've written it as cheapskate of the book, but but I like frugal, you know, you know, do you find it's easier to be frugal when you're not accountable to someone else? yeah Absolutely. yeah absolutely is Yeah. I had like in my whole sordid adult life, I had one live in relationship. It lasted nine months and I'm jealous. I wish. but and Well, I drove nuts. And one of the ways I drove her, she just wanted to, she just, like, just to piss me off, she wanted to spend money.
00:41:18
Speaker
but ah Because it was a very nice thing, actually. This was, like, This was her, I was, look, I wasn't robbing cradle completely. i was pretty young at the time too. yeah But this was her first time living on her own. show She later told me after we broke up, okay, now I get it. right ah Now I understand what the frugality is all about. But at the time,
00:41:41
Speaker
I was just like the guy who wouldn't give, ah wonder you know, and, uh, it was, uh, so no, absolutely. When you have no one to answer to, but yourself. Yeah. Oh God. Yeah. And it also makes travel easier.
00:41:55
Speaker
Okay. So, and building on that was the idea of like, what does the solo lifestyle make possible for you? And, and, you know, um, that maybe people with families or partnerships are maybe missing out on. Yeah, I think travel is probably an easy one, but is there is there other things that that come to mind? or if i If you talk specifically about being a writer, I don't know how people do it.
00:42:21
Speaker
I mean, i people have kids. I tip my cap to them. I bow. to them in respect because these are people who have these responsibilities they have to meet and then at the same time they're carving out time to write a book.
00:42:36
Speaker
Oh, I'll tell you something. What do I have to do all day? If I want to write, I write. and And I do. You know, i but so like I say, oh, I'm a fast writer. Yeah, well, good for you you. don't have anything else to do, you fool.
00:42:49
Speaker
ah So
00:42:52
Speaker
can pat yourself on the back. But I mean... But but i see I see other people who have have kids and they families and i really yeah I really wonder how they manage to do it. So, no, I mean, that's it's easier to be selfish is what it is. when i when you're but When you live alone, selfishness is comes with the territory.
00:43:14
Speaker
Until your soul atrophies. and you say At what point does it stop being does not be selfish it becomes something else? I go out and I steal candy from children now.
00:43:25
Speaker
Just to feel something. that smell just I'm tired of being selfish by myself. going to be selfish in the wider world.
00:43:36
Speaker
but but So, so ah actually, a quick look question that I feel like builds on that. You know, the idea of, you you say frugality is the best revenge, right? Yeah. Revenge on what? Like, what are you taking revenge on? Where's the target here? Everybody, everybody. Everybody said no to me in high school.
00:43:57
Speaker
I've got money. Who's the biggest?
00:44:06
Speaker
i felt like that I felt like that was the answer, but I wouldn i wanted to be sure. that yeah it's always It's always high school. always a ah So fair. so i I just had my 50th high school ah reunion in Brandon. Did you go back? Did you go for it? did not. But I did donate two books and they were and they were nice enough to auction them off and apparently people actually bought tickets. Wow. Lovely. i there was ah I've missed every reunion. There was a 5, there was a 10, there was 15, there was a 20. I didn't go to single one. and i
00:44:44
Speaker
I think there's a different relationship in my generation to reunions because, you know, I, ah you know, I was, I graduated ah high school 2005 and, and, um,
00:44:58
Speaker
we were already on Myspace and stuff like that. And then my first year university, we got Facebook. And so it's like we've been spying on each other day one. Yeah, exactly. You know, day two.
00:45:10
Speaker
um yeah but I know who became a loser. yeah I just have to look in the mirror. People... ah i It's very true. we you know i I graduated in the pre-social media era and also before the wheel.
00:45:25
Speaker
um But ah oops they ah ah the other thing is, and this has nothing to do with social media or anything, I think it's I was in a little group of freaks. Right. And we called ourselves freaks and they called us freaks.
00:45:41
Speaker
um We were long-haired pot-smoking freaks. And my long-haired pot-smoking pals weren't going to be at the reunion.
00:45:52
Speaker
And the people that were going to be at the reunion were people who probably didn't want to have anything to do with me and I didn't want to have anything to do with them. They're nice people now and we're all nice people. Sure. But... um I didn't really form any bonds. Yeah. What do you have to talk about? right the likes Yeah. How are your kids? Did you ever start smoking, Bob?
00:46:09
Speaker
but ah I stopped myself. Right, right, right. um Clock in the time, we'll move to the wrap-ups here. I won't keep you hostage much longer here. It's been brutal. I know, know. It's a really real feet to the fire type journalism here on Friendless. My feet are actually chained to the floor. I don't know if anybody knows. That's the first step. hiding that from the camera. That's actually why we have this tablecloth in this booth here. It's terrible. You know, you brought up writing and this is something I wanted to kind of wrap up with.
00:46:45
Speaker
You write that um a good life requires a degree of discipline. Right. um that you know that And that's sometimes ah potentially uncomfortable thing um to say out loud, and listen in kind of um at least in the the context right now. um I find that discipline can sometimes be interpreted as a little bit of abe maybe a dirty word in in culture in a culture that prefers...
00:47:15
Speaker
Language of self-care and language of kind of flowery right internet psychology. you know you know Didn't actually go to university for psychology, but watched a couple TikToks, so they think they know what gaslighting means. Thank you. You're not the only one, and I'm not the only one. People have rebelled against that word. I've got to say, I was an early adopter of saying, you don't know what that word means. This thing, because I was like, no, I've been actually really... And I yeah like and i and i know that that's... There is such a thing. You just dated ah an asshole. Yeah, that's right. You're yeah disagreeing with me. this Disagreement is not gaslighting. Right. you know But but so you know and know so, you know, talking about, you know, there's a culture of, you know, do what feels good, right? fine
00:48:00
Speaker
Do you think that we're in a stage where people are starting to be ready to hear this alternate take? Boy, again, you know I don't know if if it's living in a bubble. I'm not exactly sure what the zeitgeist is about that. ah i hope so. I hope so, because...
00:48:19
Speaker
You know, i think I think that is, I hope that is a process of maturation. I mean, you know, as you get older, you begin to realize that excess... Was that was it Henry Miller, I think, said the road to excess, the ah the palace of wisdom... Road to excess leads to the palace of wisdom. Yes, yes. And...
00:48:44
Speaker
Yeah. Story on re, but I don't think so. um You know, Hunter S. Thompson shot himself. Yeah. I loved Hunter S. Thompson when I was kid, but tim you know, i do think that it is a process of, of maturing and, you know, I mean, I, I certainly learned the lesson because I was an alcoholic when I was young. Sure. And so it was pretty easy for me to figure out that, you know,
00:49:13
Speaker
you know, being completely undisciplined and giving into your inclinations fully is not a path to happiness. So once I You know, that was that was, there's no doubt about it, that was the most important thing and step in my adult life. It happened when i was 24 years old. That changed my life.
00:49:31
Speaker
That was a fundamental dividing point in my life. And that fundamental dividing point had to do with taming my worst impulses. So for me, that's, you know, like I said, I don't know how other people relate to that question but for me it was there was no doubt about it that's that's when I started to become a that's when I went from childhood to adulthood is when I learned well not learned but when I got the courage to take that step and say you know you're it's time to it's time to rein yourself in can can I can I ask you a deeper ah question about that I got sober three years ago ah and thank you and I and I
00:50:14
Speaker
How
Rediscovering Creativity Post-Sobriety
00:50:15
Speaker
do put it? This is kind tricky. I was almost like, yeah as this is forming in my head, I was like, maybe I should ask this off mic because like, it's a little, it's maybe too personal. I don't know. but But like, I've been in a funny state over the last three years where I felt like I've lost who I was because I'm no longer drinking and using drugs, right you know, and, and, and yet I'm still in a stage where I'm not a hundred percent sure who I now am. Right. Right. And, and I've yet to, I felt really adrift for three years and I felt really
00:50:45
Speaker
It's been really hard to latch on to anything. and you know ah and And it's been hard to be creative. It's been hard to write. It's been hard to do these things because they felt like they were connected to that old self. right right it's hard you know i I wrote poetry and I wrote essays and all these things. And now I'm like, how did I do that? I can't even remember how. And and I'm curious, in your sort of sobriety journey, you know like obviously I know it's not like it's an overnight thing, but like how did you...
00:51:13
Speaker
tap into to those those creative elements when you got sober. Well, um you know, look, this is stating the obvious, but all anybody, any of us can do is tell our personal story. Right. And it only has limited application. I mean, it might have application for some people.
00:51:32
Speaker
um But here's the thing. When I was young, I used to write letters to my brother all the time. I'd get, as I got drunker and drunker, I used to write them on shopping bags. But ah but but but Save money. The plastic ones? or No, no, no. I would get paper shopping bags and tear them up. and That was an early cheapskate thing. and And I would write letters to my brother and that was the only writing I did.
00:51:54
Speaker
But I quit drinking at a young enough age so that really what I was leaving behind wasn't necessarily important because I hadn't done anything yet. Yeah. um And I think in looking back, one thing I do realize is that i threw myself into working for the radio station I was working at and I i became the music director and I worked like 16 hour days. And
00:52:27
Speaker
it wasn't worth it. But i what it was was me just like in the same way, like I've got a whole bunch of energy and time that I didn't have before. I'm going to put it here. Yes. Yeah. ah And I hadn't figured out yet what I wanted to do. Right. So I was basically in the same place you were. Yeah. But what I had was a job that gave me some busy work to do. Yeah. And that's what I did. Busy work, busy work, busy work. And then it took me quite a long time. Keep in mind, I'm i'm a senior citizen.
00:52:56
Speaker
My first book came out in my 50s. My second book, Reservation, came out when I was a senior citizen and so did this one. yeah So it is a long process. And it took me...
00:53:09
Speaker
You know, i don't I wasn't always conscious of it, but it took me a long time to round into form and to find out who I was yeah um as an adult. So it's a long process. Like you you had started your process of creativity beforehand. yeah So now you feel like you have to relearn it. yeah And I'm lucky in the sense that I haven't really done that much. right yeah Except drink. right now yeah but it is I do still find that very comforting. I find that very reassuring in a way of of of of knowing that
00:53:41
Speaker
You know, because there are, you know, in the, luckily for me, in the darker moments, it's never like, oh, and it's, it's, I should start drinking again. So much as it's like, ah, crap, maybe I'm never going to write again. But it's like, no, I know that that's just black and white, dysregulated thinking. But it's like, it's reassuring to know that it's, I guess it's just about trusting the process or something, you know. Yeah, and I think it's about trying to search for systems that work for you.
00:54:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. You had systems before. That's just it. And you've stopped those. Yeah. And good for you. right Thank you. yeah You need new systems. Right. um I have, like everybody...
00:54:22
Speaker
Here's a little bit of, if anybody's still listening, a little bit of general writing advice that I would give is don't listen to anybody else's writing advice. Just find out. the The only piece of writing advice that really works is write. Yeah. um yeah ah You know, I hear people, well I do this and I do this. Do you know the one that blows my mind, too, is like get Graham Greene. Mm-hmm.
00:54:42
Speaker
used to write 500 words a day and apparently he would stop in mid-sentence when he reached 500. That's crazy shit. But he was a great novelist. yeah So I'm not going to be like Graham Greene. I think that's stupid. yeah and yeah also a different time. It's like it's when he was, you know, he was see could do that. yeah yeah know But you know, um and the thing is, if you get hung up on one other on how other people do it, right you're going to get insecure. Yeah.
00:55:09
Speaker
You really need to find out what works for you. I'll tell you what I do. um I get up, I'm not early in the morning either. not an early riser. i get up earlier than I used to. I used to really sleep late. But anyway, I get up, I vegetate for a little while in front of the computer, sit there and stare and browse. And then I have breakfast and I shower.
00:55:29
Speaker
And then i have some back exercises I have to do. So I do my back exercises. and while I'm doing those, I'm making the first of what will be eventually two double espressos on my own machine. all right.
00:55:42
Speaker
And I don't drink coffee, by the way, with breakfast because I'm saving the caffeine. Right. yeahp Once I've done the back exercises, I've made the coffee, it's writing time. the The espresso is going to catapult me right to print productivity. yeah In a way, I'm using drugs to write. Sure. you know Yeah. But that's my process. But it's the ritual, right? It's exactly right. That's exactly right. I think you're really onto something, too. And it's something...
00:56:05
Speaker
I don't know why I'm so resistant to it. i think that I think there's this part of me that's like, well, I didn't try anything and it worked. so Yeah, yeah' right you know what I mean? right and know was Ned Flanders and his wife, we've we've we've tried nothing and we're out of ideas. Exactly. yeah know ah And so it's one of those, like you know the resistance to just like try a new experiment to see if it sticks. Right. you know Developing, i was telling someone else in an interview this other day, my mom used to say, and i don't I think she might have heard it from somewhere else, but she used to she believed, she said, if you just start doing something consciously, within five years, it will become a habit.
00:56:42
Speaker
So start consciously doing the things that you want to do, and hopefully they will become habits after a while. I love it. Yeah. Very last question before we wrap up. um um You may have just given what could have been your answer. But, um you know, if someone was to read a book, close it, and if they were to take one thing away, not money related, right just, you know, something about something that they could take to pay attention to their own life.
00:57:10
Speaker
What would you hope that that lesson would be?
Philosophical Takeaways
00:57:14
Speaker
ah i'll i'll get I'll give you two. um Simple one is, um I think one of the messages of the book is identify your priorities. Find what your priorities are and concentrate on those.
00:57:29
Speaker
That is one of the main points of the book. The other thing ah is just sort a piece of philosophy that I came upon when I was writing the book and I wrote a about, and I just thought it's so brilliant and it goes all the way back to Diogenes, a wonderful cynic. And, you know, for people who don't know it, cynic and cynical are not the same. We don't know why the word cynical came from the cynics because the cynics weren't cynical. They believed in simplicity and a natural lifestyle.
00:58:02
Speaker
And Diogenes apparently lived in an urn in the edge of the... He sat in a bath. He sat in a tub and yeah in the in the forum. Or in the in the in the courtyard. Yeah. yeah And... um yeah One of only two men that Alexander the Great asked to see.
00:58:17
Speaker
This is the legend. I mean, one one of the things about Diogenes is that we don't know for sure anything he did or said because he never wrote anything. So like it might all be legend. to write But the famous story is that Alexander the Great came to visit him and, what can I do for you, Diogenes? And he said, you can get out of my light. um But Diogenes apparently had a philosophy.
00:58:42
Speaker
He said, ah the gods want for nothing. The gods have everything they want. Therefore, if you are satisfied with what you have, you are godlike.
00:58:54
Speaker
And I just thought that how to that flips everything on their head. It's like the gods have everything. Therefore, I should want more because the gods have more. No, Diogenes says, that's not the point. The gods are satisfied with what they have. Yeah.
00:59:07
Speaker
if you are satisfied, you are living like a God. And I just think that's, that's as good a takeaway from my book or any book, you know? um Yeah. Enough is enough. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Steve Burgess. Thank you so much for joining me today. What a, what a pleasure it's been to chat with you. Before we wrap up, um um where would you like to steer listeners next? Where would you like them to to go to to find more out to about you?
00:59:35
Speaker
Gee, I don't know. um I'd like them to buy the book. Yeah. Cheapskating Lotus Land. Buy it at the book warehouse on Maine? I have the book warehouse on Maine. You know, if you don't like the book warehouse on Maine, I'm sorry, I don't know why you wouldn't, yeah but there's also the book warehouse on Broadway. There you go, right? You know, those people are good people. Black Bond books, za anyone under the umbrella. You know,
01:00:00
Speaker
if you've if've got If you've got a beef with Main Street book, I'm not saying anybody does, but you know, you get some of these. You never know. yeah Authors have feuds. and ah But anyway, no, I just, ah yeah, i i i I don't want to, I am pleased to say that I'm working on another project for Harbor Publishing.
01:00:20
Speaker
Fantastic. I won't say what it is. yes Okay. It's going to be a couple of years away. Gotcha. So it's still still brewing. Still brewing. Excellent. i'm I'm working on it now. Excellent. Well, I'll make sure there will be links in the links in the show notes for for where to where to find your book, Chiefsgate and Lotus Land. where Also, where to find your other books.
01:00:38
Speaker
You know, give give a second life to some of or some of your other writers. Yeah, Reservations, ah The Pleasures and Perils of Travel is still in print. My first book, Who Killed Mum, is at the library, but hard to find otherwise. Fair enough. But...
01:00:53
Speaker
I'm very proud of that book. If you can dig it up from the library, it you know people liked it. It made the top 10 year-end critics lists at both the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star.
01:01:06
Speaker
So there you go. pretty big Pretty big stuff. That's huge. Yeah. Well, I mean, I got i got nothing left and I have no sign-off. So that's as good an end as it has. Excellent. Pleasure.