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What I Learned the Hard Way About Surrogacy
0 Playsin 12 hours
Choosing surrogacy isn’t just about deciding to move forward — it’s about knowing who you can trust to support you through the process.
In this episode, Monroe shares what he learned after going through two very different surrogacy journeys. Along the way, he offers perspective and advice shaped by what he experienced firsthand — including moments where transparency, ethics, and consistent support made all the difference.
Rather than theory, this conversation focuses on what stood out after experiencing journeys with two different agencies — and how working with the right people changed the entire experience.
This episode is for anyone researching surrogacy or egg donation who wants to feel informed, supported, and confident before taking the next step.
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Transcript
Financial Misappropriation and Ethical Decision-Making
00:00:00
Speaker
We get the email from that agency um that, hey, you know, we've had a misappropriation of assets. All of your money has been, has been, it's gone.
00:00:10
Speaker
And, but but stick with us. That experience reshaped how Monroe approached every decision that came next and clarified what truly matters when choosing support. Because after something like that, you don't look for promises.
00:00:25
Speaker
You look for clarity, transparency, and people who take responsibility for the entire journey. Monroe has now completed two surrogacy journeys and the difference the second time wasn't luck or timing.
00:00:38
Speaker
It was working with the team that communicated clearly, operated ethically and transparently and stayed present from start to finish.
Surrogacy Journey Comparisons and Ethical Support
00:00:47
Speaker
That support changed how the entire journey felt.
00:00:52
Speaker
There was never weeks or months of gaps where I'm sitting there wondering, what's the next step? Who's who's on first here? In this episode, Monroe shares what he learned through experience, how working with ethical, transparent support changed his journey, what stood out once he lived both sides of the process, and how the right partnership helped restore confidence after a difficult experience.
00:01:16
Speaker
If you're researching surrogacy and want to move forward feeling informed and supported, this conversation is for you. Enjoy.
00:01:28
Speaker
Okay, Monroe, I really have been excited to have this conversation because I feel like your story just really shows how different a surrogacy journey can feel depending on the support that you have around you. And I know you've lived both sides of that. So I would love if we can start there. Just what does it feel like? You know, you have baby Lauren, sweet big sister, Alison. What does it feel like knowing how different this journey was compared to your first journey?
00:02:07
Speaker
Yes, yes. So the two journeys, before I even get into the differences, I want to say we worked with two different surrogates. And for purposes of this discussion, I'm going to refer to them as surrogates. But I know that if you're speaking the industry lingo, surrogate can imply a traditional surrogate situation. So we use gestational carriers, just to be to be clear with that. But the two surrogates we worked with were where dreams come true. And so that is... yeah That is the one through line consistency. But to your your point, Whitney, we worked with two different agencies. We worked with Ag Donor Surrogate Solutions for our second journey. um
00:02:41
Speaker
And the the agency isn't everything in the journey, but I'll say we I gave the agency a call in... August of 24, just to put some time around it. And by October of 25, we were, well, in September of 25, we were heading to the hospital to anticipate and welcome the birth of
The Marathon of Surrogacy: Challenges and Realizations
00:03:01
Speaker
our our daughter. So that gives a flavor of how efficient things can be. When I was first educating myself on surrogacy, and I've i've listened to a few of the podcast episodes to educate myself on kind of the format, but a theme I was hearing is it's ah it's a marathon, not a sprint. I definitely wanted it to be a sprint. And I think a lot of parents come to And most do. Want it to be a sprint, right? And so this this journey really did show me it can go as fast as a parent may hope. um A lot of that you know is out of the agency's control, but what is in the agency's control, what I found here with egg donor surrogate solutions was
00:03:39
Speaker
things just happened as quickly as I wanted them to or as efficiently. There was never weeks or months of gaps where I'm sitting there wondering what's the next step? Who's who's on first here? so I really appreciated that with with what I found at this agency.
00:03:54
Speaker
um I'm so grateful that that you all guided us and our wonderful surrogate to the finish line. So as you can hear, I have a healthy baby sitting next to me and she's just a I can hardly believe that that all of this has happened. And and one more point, Whitney, and then I'll give you the floor back. But when I called the agency back in in um August of 24, we had just completed our first journey. We had just gotten home from
The Importance of Third-Party Financial Management
00:04:23
Speaker
from the hospital. That journey took five years.
00:04:25
Speaker
um So I figured we want to do two. Let's start number two is right now, and we'll see how long it takes. And having just completed a journey, i think i was speaking with Meg from the agency at the time, and she said, hey, i know you're just starting with egg donor service solutions, but we'd love to have you on the podcast to share your perspective on on the journey that you just completed with a different agency.
00:04:45
Speaker
I remember saying, even at that time, you know and this is this gets to this idea of parents coming into this with some sense of being guarded, some sense of doubt, some disbelief that this could actually work.
00:04:58
Speaker
And I said, you get me through this second journey and and i will come on to the podcast. And even as said that, I remember thinking, and that's a check I will never have to cash because there's no way this can work. And and at that point, if ah if anyone had a reason to believe that surrogacy could work, right I just completed a successful journey. You'd think that I would have had a different outlook. But even then I had doubts that this could be as wonderful as it turned out to be. And as a man of my word, here I am to join the podcast and and it's a very cathartic experience to be here with you. So, so thanks for having me.
00:05:30
Speaker
Oh, well, I love that. And also, I mean, again, shout out to Meg for just being like, um, of course it's going to work. And yes, this is going to be the best thing to talk about. I love that.
00:05:42
Speaker
I, okay. I want to go back because, you know, we joke and we do say it's a marathon, not a sprint in the sense of when I'm saying it, it's a,
00:05:54
Speaker
we dot our I's, we cross our T's, we make sure that things are going to go well and we don't want to rush because we don't want you know to make mistakes. But five years Five years. Yes, five years. And I did, prior to this, make a little timeline to make sure that I'm keeping myself honest on it.
00:06:17
Speaker
um But it was it was five years. it we and the timing was was unfortunate as well. i mean, we we started the process in January of 2020. That was when we felt financially ready. In our careers, we were ready. you know just Sure. i'm Ready to take that. So you know in hindsight, that was a terrible time to to try to begin any new endeavor. right The world came to a screeching halt. and And the agency that we had signed with at that time you know gave us some indications on timelines to match, right? There's no commitment, but here's what we're seeing on
Independent vs. Agency-Supported Surrogacy
00:06:45
Speaker
average. And it and that probably was true in January of 20. But as as fate would have it, everything came to a halt. The matches were happening much more slowly. And so the the wait time was was really excruciating. I think back to what was one of the more challenging parts. It was just the wait to match. And some of that had to do with
00:07:07
Speaker
what was going on in the world matches were still happening at the time, but contrast that with what I found here at egg donor surrogate solutions. And again, we came to the agency in 24, so the world had reopened in many ways.
00:07:18
Speaker
But I think the the expectation that you would set with us and the way that the matching happens here at this agency is different from the other agency. But I think the agency has said, hey, you know expect six to nine months might be on average. And That to me felt pretty quick. i I thought that's great. Even if it's in the nine month end of the range, that's that's okay. And um most unexpected of all, the match occurred in two days. So it was a very quick match. And shout out to the our surrogate, right? Because she ultimately picked us and that's what led to to that. So i I thanked her profusely over the journey. at the end of the journey, even now after our baby's been here. So grateful to her. But but um yeah, the matching part in our first journey was a really difficult part. That's before I even met the surrogate. Yeah. hear it And I mean, I think it's a good yeah um it's a good expectation to know that matching is going to take a little while, especially you know if at least in
00:08:17
Speaker
you know In our process, it's not it's not a list. It's not you're number 25 and she's number 25. Here you go. You're matched. it's It is a, you know ah Lauren, ah you know she she describes it as it's a bucket. and we're pulling you out and we're really looking at, you know, your preferences and, you know, just all of those things wanting to make a good match. And so it does, you know, sometimes take a while. And so it is good to have, you know, a realistic idea of, you know, hey a good journey might take a little bit longer in the front end. But even with COVID, even with, um you know, just all of those things, again, the fact that it took, you know,
00:09:00
Speaker
five years to complete a journey. i mean, i i know the matching process was was obviously part of that, but what else was causing such a lengthy timeline?
00:09:13
Speaker
Sure. so So in the wait process, I took matters into my own hands. And so for any parents that that kind of cast as many lines as you do, I think that's a great thing
Building Trust and Communication in Surrogacy
00:09:24
Speaker
to do. You're definitely, believe it or not, you're already making parenting decisions before the surrogacy journey begins by sha by casting different lines. um So at that point, I you know went to the Facebook, put out ah an ask to the universe,
00:09:38
Speaker
identified an independent surrogate, not telling the agency this whole time, right? Because I'm waiting for them to come to me with my match. so found an independent candidate, did legal independently, did psych independently, did the medical clearance independently. At this point, I am the agency.
00:09:55
Speaker
She started the the medication cycle. We got six days out from transfer. There's one kind of appointment before transfer. That's when the fertility clinic in so many words said, hey, this is not this is not a good situation. We don't feel comfortable putting an embryo in that the medication didn't. I won't get into the medical piece of it, but they ultimately said this,
00:10:14
Speaker
about 5% of all surrogates end up in this bucket and this is just an unlucky thing. And I remember the words they used because I remember asking like, what so what next? what do Where do we go from here? What's the next protocol? How do we how do we make next cycle different?
00:10:28
Speaker
And they said, find another uterus. And it was a very blunt, phrase wow and it still haunts me, but but it was that direct.
00:10:39
Speaker
And so at this point I don't have an agency, so I have to handle all of the know where do you how do I begin to clean up this mess And luckily, just as we would have it, so that was a difficult piece of it. But then our our other agency then happened to have a match kind of soon thereafter. And then we regain re restarted the process with our, who ultimately did end up being our um our first surrogate.
00:11:03
Speaker
In that window between match and transfer is when we get the email from that agency that, hey, you know we've had a misappropriation of assets. All of your money has been...
00:11:16
Speaker
has been, it's gone. Oh, my start. stick with us, right? But stick with us because we're going to make right by you. right So that that was in the summer of 23. um Very difficult message to hear, of course. and But to that agency's credit, if if those of you who are impacted, if you know which agency I'm talking about, I won't use their name because at the time, the agency owner said, trust me on this. I will bankroll all of your journeys so that no family will come out financially unscathed.
00:11:45
Speaker
I will use my personal assets. So just to clear, this agency had an in-house escrow situation. You were not using an outside third party. Thank you for for making that point. You're exactly right, Whitney, that this was was the the situation. and And that was something i actually found attractive about the agency on the front end because it was thscrow's here the here, matching pieces here, the legal was also in that agency as well. So like, perfect for for one fixed fee. Sure, it feels all convenient. It's all there. Yeah.
00:12:15
Speaker
So, so ultimately then, um, one of those, one bad, so bad actor in the group that had, um, taken the money. and And this is so horrifying to say, but, but the agency owner stepped forward and said i will use my personal assets. And to his credit, he did. and and I'm only one of the hundreds of of parent couples that were impacted, but I can say I did, I did come out financially unscathed. And so I want to make sure that i give him his credit that, um,
00:12:44
Speaker
He got us through it, and thought tons of respect to him, but but certainly a cautionary tale to any potential future surrogates or parents. The point, Whitney, that you made of the importance of having that third-party escrow company in the in the the mix, because when we see these financial frauds come up,
00:13:04
Speaker
and And one just happened in December, a very reputable, what we thought was a reputable agency kind of went under. There's there's parents right now that are impacted. My heart goes out to them. i I've sat in that chair that they're sitting in.
00:13:18
Speaker
The difference being, in that and I'm an outsider looking into this, but all accounts are that that agency appears to be not acting the same way that at Lyon did in that it just kind of went quiet, disappeared. And so i think the investigation is is ongoing, but for those families impacted um or for any future families, just just if whether you do an independent journey, whether you do a journey with Ag Donor and Surrogate Solutions or any other agency,
00:13:46
Speaker
If there's one thing you take out of this podcast episode, it is to make sure that you do not proceed without a reputable third-party escrow ah company, because it's it's just ah it's an insurance policy on your money to be there when when it's needed.
Perseverance and Agency Support in Surrogacy
00:14:04
Speaker
yeah 100 and i i mean i think it's it it does seem so attractive especially in i mean in the situation that you were in of starting with one agency i'm not hearing from them i'm just going to go ahead and take you know the bull by the horns so you're doing all of those independent things you're you're you know going from place to place and just trying to coordinate all of it it sounds amazing whenever you're like yeah it's all here it's all under you know One umbrella. But like you said, the risk is just not worth it.
00:14:39
Speaker
And it is so important to have those checks and balances there. Yes. Yes. Yes. For both parties, for for the the parents who are putting the money up, for the surrogates who are being compensated with that pot of money. We all have a stake in it. And so I'll say the, what got me comfortable really with Ag Donor and Surrogate Solutions was in the fallout of our of the of the financial fraud that ended up into a criminal investigation, that ended up with people going to prison, the solution for us parents was, hey, we're gonna use a third party escrow company. We should have been using one from the beginning. And that company happened to be Seed Trust. And I'm not making an endorsement of them, do your homework folks. But when I first started doing my homework on this agency, Ag Donor Surrogate Solutions,
00:15:21
Speaker
That was one of the first questions I asked and and the response was, we work with Seed Trust. That really won this agency a lot of credibility points with me as a potential parent client, so to speak.
00:15:33
Speaker
um I know there's other escrow companies out there, not say Seed Trust is the only one, but from experience, the two journeys that we did were were resulted in live births and there was no funny business with the money once Seed Trust was in the mix. So they seem to do a good job.
00:15:50
Speaker
Again, i mean, you're looking, it's such an emotional situation that a lot of hopeful parents are in when you are, you know, ah one, you're, you're being tasked with, you know, phrases like go find another uterus. And so, I mean, you've got like a whole lot going on there. And then, like you said, just the ethical aspect of it, whether it is money, how people are treated, matching process, just across the board, there's a lot. That's you know just going into a decision and of as you're collecting your trusted advisors and the people that you want to work with. And so, you know yes, the ethics behind something like having a third party escrow, c trust, et cetera, is so important.
00:16:36
Speaker
It's very, very important. And it's something that I put not enough
Financial Aspects and Agency Logistics
00:16:40
Speaker
stake on in the beginning, because as an intended parent comes to this process and educates themselves, at some point they're gonna scratch out the numbers.
00:16:49
Speaker
One, because they're trying to figure out what this is gonna cost. But two, it's about when do I need the money, right? At what points, the fertility clinic gets paid, that the s surrogate gets paid, the agency, if you're working with an agency. if you So figuring out the cashflow is gonna be a part of it. And so as you're putting those numbers together,
00:17:05
Speaker
There's a a natural you know inclination to want to figure out where can we cut costs? What can we take out of the process? What can we do ourselves and and save some money? Right. And so that was one of the areas when I did when I attempted our independent journey, which which failed for reasons unrelated to to money. But that was one of the areas I remember thinking, do I really need this?
00:17:25
Speaker
And it was the lawyers that said, no, you do need it. And so we we did have it ready to go if we would have gotten to that point. But I remember looking at that cost and it's something to the tune of, let's say, $1,300. So if I can save $1,000 on any step, I was very much of that mindset. And so I will say for anyone who's thinking through those numbers, this is not the cost to cut. It's just not the cost to cut. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of, I mean, I don't want to jump ahead because I know there's so much more, you know, between where you were then and where you are now. But just hearing you say that, you know, when you are in a position of, like you said, you are trying to find every way that, you know, you can just make this already huge financial decision, huge financial, you know, just path um a little easier.
00:18:21
Speaker
Despite your experience of doing an independent journey, working with an agency that ended up having the situation that you had in, what why didn't you cut the cost of working with an agency the second time around? Why did you decide to move forward with an agency, especially after the experience that you had had just finances alone?
00:18:43
Speaker
Sure. So the the the failed independent journey that we had attempted ultimately fell apart due to something that, i mean, this this individual had went through medical clearance and past legal, past psych, everything was looking good. So it was this fluke thing. So to your point, Whitney, that every reason to to think, well, if I try it again with a different person, we will have a different outcome. But what I found in attempting the independent journey, and I worked full time. i have a demanding career that I you know work hard at to to pay for what I just went through. but so I don't have an abundance of free time either. So there's a lot that goes into it. It's not just the the legal agreement. It's not just finding the person. It's not just coordinating their travel to your fertility clinic and getting the scheduling logistics lined up. But there's also all of these insurance pieces.
00:19:30
Speaker
There's the the health insurance, the life insurance, the the other insurance. there's a bunch of insurance at Ag Donor Surrogate Solutions. If you work with this agency, I'll put a big plug in. Courtney, you know, took care of it all. It was it was an afterthought. Shout out to Courtney. She's amazing.
00:19:45
Speaker
She really is And made it very easy to to understand what am I paying for? Why does this matter? can Can I go a different route? And she, you know, talked through those decision points. I have ah another couple in my life. they're They're attempting an independent journey. They're at the point where they're thinking through insurance.
00:20:04
Speaker
And I remember a lot of of this. I've been able to kind of give them little pointers, but that's one area where I'm thinking, I wish I could just refer you to Courtney to to answer these questions because I yeah don't know. And I don't want to know. I don't want to learn.
00:20:17
Speaker
All of these things. um So those are the reasons why in in knowing we wanted to have two and restarting and knowing we weren't going to work with the same agency. Those were the the things that that made an independent journey just not it's something I would entertain.
00:20:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense. i I love that after the experience that you had, you recognized you know just what felt right for you and your family of, you know we do want to come alongside, we do wanna have support in this area, just all of those things.
00:20:52
Speaker
What conversations did you guys have with each other as you decided, okay, we do want to move forward? And I know timeline was obviously a huge issue because you were like, oh yeah, it's going to be another five years probably before we even get started since you were calling like the day you came home from the hospital.
00:21:14
Speaker
Yes, yeah, then that is not a that's not a superlative. um the the conversation So when we came back, you know I knew I wanted to restart it. And my partner was very much of the thought, like, let's just give ourselves a you know couple months, maybe a year to enjoy the what this baby that we have.
00:21:30
Speaker
yeah And so when I i contacted ah a friend that I knew was attempting a journey, asked him who he was working with, hey, give me what agency have you connected with? That's how I got the name of your agency. And when I gave this agency a call for just an exploratory, you know, just picked up the phone,
00:21:47
Speaker
What I really liked about this agency, again, what won a lot of points with me, and this was different than my
Transparency and Process in Surrogacy Agencies
00:21:53
Speaker
other agency, different than many other agencies, is there is no money down for an intended parent like myself or or others until a match is presented. So there's really no risk to to start exploring with with egg donor surrogate solutions. That was a very attractive piece of the the organization. Of course, I loved everyone I spoke with. yourself included. It's ah it's a great group. That's that's not to be you know an understatement. Our coordinator, Allison, you know was was present, available every step of the way. But but that would that came after, right? That was not part of why I signed up with with the agency. I didn't meet our coordinator until after we've been matched. So it was really, I think, the fee structure and how the timing of when payments were due, I thought there's no reason I wouldn't ah explore this agency further. Yeah, no, for sure.
00:22:45
Speaker
We'll get right back to the show, but real quick, if you're dreaming of growing your family through egg donation or surrogacy, we'd love to help. At Egg Donor and Surrogate Solutions, we've spent 18 years guiding hopeful parents with compassion, expertise, and personal experience.
00:23:00
Speaker
Our team includes people who have been intended parents, surrogates, egg donors, and even nurses. So when we say we understand, we truly do. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with our team at create a happy family.com to get your questions answered and explore your next steps.
00:23:18
Speaker
You don't have to navigate this journey alone. We're here to walk it with you. All right, let's get back to the show. What were some of those non-negotiables for you again, as you were just thinking about the experience that you had,
00:23:34
Speaker
and then moving forward into a next journey. And I say non-negotiables as well as maybe what did it look like to kind of jump off you know that edge of like trusting this process again?
00:23:50
Speaker
I remember saying to myself at the the time, like a body in motion stays in motion, the body at rest stays at rest. So I felt like in coming home from the hospital, if I settled into this life with my new baby, the inertia that it would you know take to get started again a year, two years from now would would only It would only be harder. It would only take more effort to sort of muster up the just the mental bandwidth to to dedicate to the process. So while we were still, it felt like on the treadmill of of what this is just yeah to continue on. So I thought I was going to call a bunch of agencies and and do my homework and compare. And really, after speaking with with this agency, for the reasons that I have already mentioned, we did our onboarding call. We filled out our profile.
00:24:36
Speaker
and And you all didn't even give us enough days to sort of sit with it and call another agency. No, we sure didn't. presenting a wonderful match. And I remember thinking, this is a scam because they said, no money down until match.
00:24:51
Speaker
And wouldn't you know it, like days later, there's a match. And so that that really was something in the back of my mind. But I'm thinking, well, the money's going to seed trust. So this can't be a scam. My partner at the time is real. My partner now and at the time was saying, this is a scam. So we had the matching call. And the minute we saw the candidate like that, but right when she opened her mouth, the first I don't know what she said, but I knew this was all just a good situation. And I knew she was winning over my partner. That's really who needed to be sold on this call because I was ready to go.
00:25:21
Speaker
um But the call was so good. you know in and going into that matching call, everyone approaches it differently. and I wanted to feel like two things were going to be achieved in that hour long Zoom call. Two big things. And and one is, can I trust to this person? Which to meet a stranger and tell yourself, I need to come away from hour long conversation thinking I can put the most precious responsibility in their hands for nine months and all my money on the line. That's a big ask. And then two, if this all works out, you know, 15 years from now, the the baby may want to know who their surrogate was. And would that...
00:26:00
Speaker
could Could that baby be proud of this person sitting in front of me? You know, like what what I want? and and And I knew right away, just just meeting who ultimately became our our candidate. So very strong candidate. There was really no inside debate inside our house of should we move forward here? it was a...
00:26:18
Speaker
really felt like a huge personal victory for me because I was pushing this process thinking it was going to take years again. And my partner thinking, let's let's just pump the brakes and enjoy what we just finished.
00:26:30
Speaker
And from then on, it i mean everything just went so unbelievably smooth, you know much to the credit of the agency, much to the credit of of the surrogate who really holds a lot of power in how fast things do and do not move. um So i that was key to the match too, is is I felt like she was just as motivated to to move forward.
00:26:53
Speaker
And i liked I really liked that about her. She's a really driven person, um someone who I've learned a ton from as ah as a person outside of surrogacy over the over the last year and and a relationship I'll definitely treasure and have forever.
00:27:08
Speaker
How did, i mean, you you mentioned it, you know, those those two big questions, you know, with building with building trust and, you know, with fostering a relationship, how did expectations and trust get built from the beginning? Both, I mean, you kind of mentioned how that how it started with the agency, but how did that trust kind of continue to evolve? And then also how did that evolve with your surrogate?
00:27:38
Speaker
So with, yeah, so with the agency, the trust, I really didn't. So coming out of just a very unique experience with a prior agency, i I'll be honest, I didn't view a donor surrogate solutions as like the the key player here. They were yeah viewing the agency as like, you're just a ah party I need to work with and my ultimate goal here. and and So um and that that changed over the course of of the the year. and And really, it was just a set of steps. You know, hey, this is the next step. We'll get back to you in two days.
00:28:09
Speaker
Sure enough, they got back in two days. You you guys got back into this. Just so all the little steps, everything just happened as you said it would for the pieces that you can control. There's a number of things you can't control. So I'm not going to hold any agency to that expectation. And if you're listening to this thinking my journey didn't go that way, know, the things that happen at the fertility clinic, of course, it's outside the realm of anyone's control.
00:28:31
Speaker
um but But that established a good sense of trust. You know, Allison, I really did feel like was invested in us and I didn't ever really need her to invest in me, but I really wanted to know she was taking care of the surrogate.
00:28:48
Speaker
Like that ah the surrogate was supported and that she, the surrogate, if she was feeling some, something, she may not want to come to the intended parents about it because it's, there's an interesting dynamic in the beginning. So feeling like is, is Alison our coordinator, the the person working with both us and the surrogate from the agency,
00:29:06
Speaker
um Is this someone that I think can be a source of direction in the conversations that we're not a part of because the surrogates, you know, looking to to lean on or in conversations that we just wouldn't be ah party to. So I felt really good about that. But very quickly, the relationship shifts over to to sort of just it's us and the surrogate. and Yeah.
00:29:29
Speaker
the The communication, I'll say through the the pregnancy, I'm a very high anxiety person. I heard this theme on other podcast episodes that that you've all done with other parents in that we're always waiting for the shoe to drop.
00:29:41
Speaker
Because of the things that have occurred before, we're always waiting for the bad news. We're always waiting for the thing that didn't go right. And, um, And so that anxiety sort of never goes away. And so through all of it, I'm i'm doing my best to sort of manage it not put that anxiety onto the surrogate. yeah And so we got into a rhythm of we're going to we're going talk every Sunday.
00:30:02
Speaker
Text. It's ah a text, so a few texts, not a big time commitment, but it's that consistency that then on Tuesday when I didn't hear from her, I wasn't worrying to think, oh yeah this is different.
00:30:14
Speaker
This is something's going on, right? this yeah So that was ah a little thing that we did that worked for for the three of us, because we're all working adults here, to to not ask too much time of one another, but also to sort of have that weekly check-in. And again, it was...
00:30:31
Speaker
in many weeks, just a few texts. So not not asking for a big time commitment. She's a mom. you know She has responsibilities outside of work to her kids. Very sensitive to not wanting to ask her ever to spend time away from that to to comfort me, right? Like that's not not the ask that that we want. so So it really was just over time. And then by the end, of course, the the hospital experience is is in both cases was just a a once in a Once in a lifetime, well, twice in a lifetime experience, but but that really solidified. This is someone who, right, wrong, or otherwise, we're going to be in our lives forever.
Emotional Bonds and Lessons from Surrogacy
00:31:10
Speaker
And and both of our our surrogates live in different states. So that commitment, that time commitment looks different. um
00:31:17
Speaker
But it's someone that I want to... to have in my life it's not a relationship that i feel that i need to tend to it's it's one of those relationships that we have where you i retreat to when when life is stressful let me send a text and a baby picture to to the surrogate let's tap back into like that positive feeling and and that sense of there's someone out there in the world that will always be there to to revel in this thing that we just accomplished together that's beautiful I i love that you recognized what you needed as far as communication. And we're able to feel like you could have that that conversation you know with your surrogate and kind of that expectation. But then I also really love that, again, you know minimally it's Sunday, but like you said, it has evolved and it is that relationship that, you know to quote you, that you retreat to. i mean, it's so it's so beautiful.
00:32:28
Speaker
what can feel like just the biggest leap of faith, how that can really just turn into something so just one of a kind and special.
00:32:44
Speaker
very It's very that. I don't know if you have any, like, I think of it like, you know, everyone's, many people have a lot of cousins, but you have that one cousin, you're going to the family holiday. Maybe you haven't seen him in six months. Maybe you saw him yesterday, but you get to the the thing and you make eye contact and you just know you're going to cut it up and have a good time. And like that one relationship and it's, it's this relationship again, you don't have to tend to it. It's not, it's not this heavy,
00:33:10
Speaker
commitment, it's it's this source of positivity that if you would have told me at the beginning, five, six years ago when we started this, that that's what would come of this, I would have never believed it. I would have thought, I want a closed service where we're going to do the process and then we leave the hospital and then we never look back.
00:33:28
Speaker
That's what I would have thought would have felt right to me. um so So that's a surprising kind of of twist. And i think until until the matching call happens, but I'm sure many people feel that way because you don't know who the other person is on the other side of that relationship. But I think for many of us, once you meet that person and you go through this magical experience, how can you not want to hold on to that you know success story it's that that feeling of great gratuity that that will never i hope it never goes away i hope that never leaves me i hope i always feel just as you know to take your words my cup is full overflowing the same way i felt leaving the hospital i hope that is always kind of up there and a source of of happiness that i can tap into when when the babies are are awake at 3 a.m for for the last
00:34:20
Speaker
three and a half months For sure. for sure I mean, again, you know, just thinking back to where you were and then where you are now, I know, you know, in talking with Ali, you know, I know she had heard you say that this experience, you know, is, has been a night and day difference. When you say that, what were the things that made those journeys just feel like such a huge contrast?
00:34:50
Speaker
Yes, I would say in both cases, when I contrast the two experiences, it was everything everything that happened from transfer onward, a lot of that is really out of the agency's hands. And so from that point forward, it's really in the surrogate and the fertility clinic and fate's hands. Those, the journeys are very similar and and wonderful. Both pregnancies were healthy pregnancies. Both surrogates are people that we will have in our lives forever. Their extended families were there to receive us. And and it was just all of the wonderful things. But from prior to transfer, When really the agency is there to sort of get you to transfer and kind of what happens after that is, is we'll see. That's where the night and day differences were.
00:35:33
Speaker
and And really the the diligence piece of it, you know, I really... everything's very similar right so it's very familiar there's a matching call there's the timing of the payments is a little different but the roughly the the total payments were the same the size of the agencies from what i could tell were the same and and before the the fraud happened i think back to that first journey that just waiting for a match was just a really painful process and i felt like and i didn't have to endure any of that here which i'm so thankful for and really colors my
00:36:08
Speaker
how I view the agency. But even still, right? Every month we'd get one email. Here's how many surrogates moved into this phase. Here's how many matches we made. And to your point, this was one of those list-based matching scenarios. So so your number was this last month, you were 83. Now you're 81.
00:36:27
Speaker
It's like, well, that was a month. So if I just moved two spaces in one month, ah I can do the math. like this This is not going well. So after a number of months of that and seeing the matching going as slow as it was, um i felt like the agency really wasn't sort of defending themselves to say, here's what we're doing to to try to keep keep things moving. Because at this point, this agency was not the same as you in that they did expect an upfront payment and then another payment at match. So ah another point of consternation in that wait, if I really think about it, was, hey, this agency has a big chunk of my money.
00:37:06
Speaker
And I understood that there was maybe going to be a few months, up to a year wait, but we're now in going into year three of waiting and you're sitting on my money. That that starts to grind at a parent. you know You're thinking,
00:37:19
Speaker
either give me my money back or where's the match? And so that that builds over over time. And that's another reason why if a parent's doing their homework on agencies, don't underestimate how that can start to feel how that that money piece can start to feel in the weight. And so if you're waiting with this agency, Ag Donor Surrogate Solutions, the the beauty is they don't have your money, so that weight doesn't feel as bad, right? It's it's easier to endure that weight because you're not financially entangled with the agency.
00:37:49
Speaker
And um I'd say that's a ah big distinction point that if anyone's exploring this agency to to not not underestimate the importance of how the fee structure plays into the psyche of the weight.
00:38:03
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Well, and then I feel like it also almost puts you in a situation where you have been waiting for so long. You have money tangled up. You're finally being presented with a surrogate. And I'm not saying this was your scenario, but I feel like it can be a situation where things that you were, you know, you had a standard that you were, or, you know, expectations or whatever, there's a part of you that's like, well, I've been waiting so long, I'll just let that slide. Or I'm kind of getting a little bit of a red flag feeling, but we're on year three, let's just go ahead. And you start,
00:38:42
Speaker
Start compromising on things that are very important. Like start start rethinking, do i do I want to change? whatever Wherever you landed on termination, it's a decision that you're going to establish with the agency. sure Hey, with a match, if something were to happen, would these medical reasons lead you to terminate the pregnancy? These are tough discussions that happen up front. So in that way, to your point, Whitney, it's do you start rethinking, have I been too...
00:39:07
Speaker
selective in some of these really important criteria. should i Should I back off of that thing that I thought was important to me because that would allow me to be a better match to more surrogates and you start to sort of negotiate with yourself on things that honestly you should not negotiate with. You make your decision, what are your values, you land on it, cool. you know There's going to be a surrogate out there that's going to match you.
00:39:30
Speaker
The more prescriptive you
Encouragement for Future Surrogacy Journeys
00:39:31
Speaker
are, of course, the harder it is to find that perfect surrogate, but but You don't want to back off of that because then you get to transfer and then you're three months in. And that's a very stressful place to be of if something were to come up, are we aligned in what happens next?
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. if for, for someone who is maybe coming off of a difficult experience and wondering whether to try again, what would you want to tell them?
00:40:02
Speaker
Yes. a If it's all the families that are impacted by the fraud that is is unfolding at the agency on the West Coast or to someone who may have just endured a ah failed embryo transfer, you know, for all of the things that we we went through, both of our transfers worked. So, you know, I will never, you know, take that for granted. But whatever the hardship is, ah Thinking back to why did you start this process and and just keep pushing forward and that's easier said than done. And also to the to the GCs, if if there is a failed transfer, you know, like one of my biggest things that I was so worried about every step of the way, and I heard this mentioned on another one of your episodes was,
00:40:45
Speaker
Anytime something wouldn't go right, I was always worried that the GC would say, you know what? Like, this is actually just more than I signed up for. Like, I'm going to back out. Like, they thank you for picking, but I've had a enough, right? Because there's always that, from the IP's perspective, that concern, because let's face it, the surrogates are doing all of the work here, all of the medical protocols, all of the appointments, all of the... So as much as we can do in trying to make it as easy as possible, like, there's there's not much we it's a physical toll.
00:41:13
Speaker
Just, yeah. Yeah. yeah and So the agency being wrapped around that helps. Another reason why I caution against an independent journey is that concern is only louder when you don't have the agency. When I didn't feel like if something were to go wrong, there isn't an Allison there to kind of keep us all together and and put us on that right path. That's another point, Whitney, that I think is is a big proponent for, of course, this agency. But to have an agency partner is there is that person to sort of Make sure that people don't just back away. if If they want to back away, you know, go ahead. but
00:41:47
Speaker
But I always felt like the risk of that, if it were to happen, I wouldn't be the only one kind of at the table sorting through that. There would be someone there with me. There'd be someone there with the surrogate independently to to provide counsel or to think about what happened next.
00:42:03
Speaker
But...
00:42:06
Speaker
I've heard many people say that every journey is different. Everything's unexpected. In this second journey with with this agency, there was there was there was no surprises. There was no detours. There was no, this didn't happen, so we got to repeat this step.
00:42:20
Speaker
and So for the things that were in this agency's control, like all credit to to to you and your team that it was a very well executed process. We had luck on our side at the fertility clinic. I'm so thankful for that. We had a surrogate who was very, um you know, process oriented and driven. You know, I'm that way. And I felt like she was even more that way than I was i liked and respect about her. Yeah.
00:42:44
Speaker
Yeah, so i don't know if that quite hits the question, but the hard parts of this are hard. I think you're highlighting something so important is, you know, as much as is the the escrow piece is really important and as much as, you know, we appreciate having the Courtney's in the world being able to explain, you know, insurance and all of those things.
00:43:09
Speaker
At the end of the day, one of the greatest aspects of you know what an agency and I think you know what obviously Ali showed that you know we do well is that relationship, that support, that you know being there for when you do feel like the other shoe is about to drop or when you are having those fears or When you are, you know, just needing a little bit of support, encouragement, just, you know, just, just all of those things. And that support aspect is so important when you're doing a journey like this. Absolutely. And as you're talking about that, if I think about the time when Allie really came through for me personally, and again, I always viewed Allison, our coordinator's role as really, she's there for the surrogate. And then anytime I'm taking her time, it's taking her away from what I really want her to be focused on, which is making sure the surrogate's- And i want to just say like, I know you viewed it that way, but I hope you know that is not how it's, like, we're here for everyone. Yes.
00:44:16
Speaker
Yes. No, a thousand percent that that was me being in my head. But the the time when i think back to Allie, Allison really came through for us was, so there's this point, if you've never been through this yet, where there's the embryo transfer and then referred to as the two week wait. And then a woman, if she's going through IVF or the surrogate, and goes in for this blood test to confirm the pregnancy. So there's this period in there. In the first journey, I didn't know this, but in that 10 day, 12 day window, women can test with at home tests and they can get an idea of which way this is going. So I, there was really no thought process around that the first time, because I thought the blood test is the first test that would tell you, but that's not true. So for the second time around, I knew there was a chance that the surrogate could at home test.
00:45:01
Speaker
And so there was this discussion prior to transfer if do you want the surrogate to test at home? And if do you want her to tell you? and I remember thinking, i want her to decide what she's going to do.
00:45:13
Speaker
She wants to test or not test whatever makes her feel the most comfortable. but I wanna know if it's a yes, but I don't wanna know if it's a no, if that makes sense. very So then, right, we get six, six seven days into this 10 day wait and um and now I'm rethinking this of she hasn't said anything, but I also don't even know if she's testing, cause also left that to kind of be in her core. So I remember reaching out to Alison and sort of like talking out of both sides of my mouth to say like, do you know if she's tested?
00:45:44
Speaker
Do you remember that I said I didn't want to know if it's not good, but like how do you answer that question? Because then you don't want to be. And however she finessed it, she ultimately like threaded the needle to the point where.
00:45:57
Speaker
The surrogate then shared with us that that the tests were looking good and it sort of like eliminated the stress of that final few days of the wait, which three days of of stress seems like nothing, but in that moment, it's an eternity. And so I don't know how she managed to land that plane, but that's something we're just having that person there to sort of like thread that needle. Um,
00:46:20
Speaker
Yeah, that was ah that was a good day getting that kind of first soft preliminary. It's a positive, it's looking good type of text from from our surrogate. that was a very happy moment. Yeah, it's the best. And I mean, you're so right. Like that is just the longest 10, 12 days of, you know, just this, I feel like at all of it, but yes I think you're hitting on something. I feel like just so important is, you know, if like you and your partner can go back and forth about this all day long, but you're both, you know, in the emotional, just, you know, piece of it and to have, you know, as a, a
00:46:58
Speaker
a support like Allie where she can sit there and talk it with you and, you know, just like you said, land the plane beautifully to where everybody is feeling comfortable and and taking away, you know, that that pressure and that that concern and worry. you know you can You can have friends all day long and you can have doctors, but you know there's there's something really unique and special about someone who is there to love and support you, but isn't in the midst of the emotions of it.
00:47:30
Speaker
Yes, yes. And she, a lot of the the women at this agency are former surrogates. she I believe she was. She knew the process inside and out. So there's also something to your point of you can kind of bounce ideas off of, I felt like I could bounce ideas or things I'm worried about with Allison and I didn't need to explain myself because she had already worked with Intentive Parents as a surrogate. She sort of knew the dynamics, let alone her role with the agency in working with couples like myself and surrogates in a professional setting as the coordinator. So That is a very nice element that I've found here that I don't think was the case in my prior agency. i can't quite remember, but but I liked that here was I really didn't need to explain myself. I felt like we could just start the conversations wherever I wanted to start. And the folks that I was talking to at this agency kind of knew the context or knew why I was...
00:48:21
Speaker
inquiring about certain things or why I would be interested in certain different pieces of this puzzle. yeah this is It's an efficient and well-executed operation. So you all do a very nice job, if I haven't said that enough. Well, I i mean, I'm going to take the compliments all day long. i love it so much. But i I do want to ask you, when you when you think about...
00:48:47
Speaker
Lauren, someday hearing her story, what do you hope she knows about how intentionally she was brought into this world and yes became part of your family?
00:49:06
Speaker
yeah Yes. So Lauren is also, as you know, and and we're very transparent about this, that my partner and I both created embryos. We let the clinic decide who was going to be the first transfer. Ultimately, the first one happened to be my DNA. And so I do find a lot of pride in the sense that for Lauren, who is ultimately my partner's DNA, they both have the same egg donor. So they are biologically got some overlap there. But I'm very proud of the fact that I, at the end of this, feel like I spearheaded what ultimately led to her journey by calling this agency and doing all the homework and quarterbacking all of the pieces that fall on the intended parents, which again is much fewer items than what falls on the surrogate. But that I really drove that that process. So even though Lauren, I'm not your DNA, I do feel like that I need you.
Surrogacy and Family Creation: Insights and Advice
00:49:55
Speaker
So shout up shout out to me on that one. um But yeah,
00:50:01
Speaker
that that it can maybe when I was doing the diligence on my prior agency, I asked them for three former clients and I called each one of them up because I wanted to ask them their experience before I signed with them. yeah And I don't know anything about this guy, but I remember we had a Zoom call and it was one of the the people they referred us to. And I asked him a few questions and they had had one, they were a same sex couple, had one child through through IVF and surrogacy with the agency that I was looking into. um and And at that point we were thinking that I was just going to make embryos because we were in this cost phase of like, where can we cut costs? Well, if two of us make embryos, it's really twice as expensive. So we're thinking, maybe I'll just make them and then we'll see how it goes. And then if we, if it's good, my partner will do it later. And then we realized if we did that, there was not a chance or and as easy of a chance of having the same egg donor. So we were kind of on the fence of like, hot and he said to me, like, you know,
00:50:58
Speaker
if I could go back and do it all over again, because they they were they they did what I just described where only one of them created embryos. And so they only had one child. And he said, you know, I could do it over again. I wish my partner would have created embryos because as much as he's, you know, a great dad and all of that, there's something very poignant about looking at your child and seeing a shadow or a shade of yourself in them. And I really want that for him. And and I wish, and i remember he gave me that advice and it was just a message I did not want to hear at the time because again, it but then put in my mind of,
00:51:28
Speaker
two sets of embryos or now two journeys or or maybe a twins journey. How is this going to be? But, but I took that advice. Like I took that conversation, held onto it. We ultimately created embryos and it ultimately then led to who is now Lauren today. it was that one conversation that that set off the series of events arm that, that is her birth story.
00:51:52
Speaker
um And she, To anyone listening to this podcast, if you're doing your homework and you take one nugget from whatever me and Whitney have talked about, maybe it's not that story, maybe it's something else, but it's really important to do all of the investigation on Whitney, to your point, the vendor partners that you'll end up working with.
00:52:08
Speaker
And in in those exploratory conversations that I had with um this individual, um and I've never spoken with him again, he has no idea of what came of our story after this, but it was that one conversation, that one nugget of wisdom that I didn't want to hear at the time that- that then led to us rethinking how we're going to approach embryos. So six years later, here she is. um And so that's maybe what I want Lauren, if she ever hears this story to to know is that um even though I'm not your DNA, like will always, you know, even before you've been a figment of our imagination, I was in there figuring it out. And now I'm so happy that you're here.
00:52:56
Speaker
Mic drop. Mic drop. Your love, Lauren. I love her. love her. And funny, there's a Lauren at the agency who does a great thing. um And there's an Allison at the agency. Our other daughter's named Allison. So it's like, I don't know. Like, I use Allison and Lauren quite often. But they're two of the wonderful people that you will meet at this agency you work with them. There you go. I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Your little Allison and little Lauren are like our little poster children. I love it so much.
00:53:21
Speaker
i I do. You kind of you you touched on it a little bit. You know, I think there there's there's a lot of aspects with, you know, going through a journey as a same
The Positive Impact and Ethics of Surrogacy
00:53:32
Speaker
sex male couple. And, you know, it's those little things like you said, of you know, twice as expensive if you're you're going to make double embryos and, you know, and all of those things. And I know you were ultimately given, you know, that wisdom of you know creating the embryos the way that you did.
00:53:47
Speaker
Do you have, you know, any advice, you know, maybe especially for intended, you know, parents that are same sex couple, maybe early on in their journey that you wish you had known before you had even started?
00:54:03
Speaker
Definitely the, the think long and hard about the embryo creation piece. Like it's hard to imagine that if you're sitting, if you're sitting there having not started, it's hard to imagine a future state with one kid, let alone two. Um, but those decisions you make right at the beginning may shape whether if you do have two that they, do they share that egg donor, if that's important to you. uh,
00:54:28
Speaker
I think the agency does a nice job shielding us from what probably are distinctions. I know that there are some surrogates who don't want to carry for same-sex couples. There some that do want to and some that are indifferent. That's another reason to work with an agency if you're a same-sex couple is you don't even need to get into those weeds. The agency sort of...
00:54:46
Speaker
handles all of that behind the scenes um in a way that feels feels good. um And then, yeah, for all the same-sex couples out there that are going to pursue it, yeah i'm I'm rooting for you. That's the thing, and I keep coming back to this fraud that just happened in December, and it's so triggering and so personal to me, partially because yeah you know we we endured something similar. but But truthfully, my daughter's origin stories forever now will be rooted in the concept of IVF and surrogacy. And so what although we are done, we've completed our family, we're moving on, I will always be a part of this this industry or this community, if you will. And so it's very important to me that that agencies in fertility clinics continue to to operate in a way that keeps this concept of surrogacy and IVF in our society viewed as positive ways in which families who need to rely on this to to create a family. And so when things like what we're seeing unfold with the agency on the West Coast occur,
00:55:45
Speaker
it it feels like you know of a betrayal against everyone who has had a positive experience with ibf in the past and that's why you know i'm watching how this plays out and so for all of the couples again that were impacted just know that there's a bunch of other couples like me out here that are also watching to make sure that this comes to its rightful conclusion as the investigation is occurring you know i don't want to belabor that because that's a horror story that we don't need to dwell on but it's it's one of these things where it's important to me that even though we're done that this remains a space for other families in the future to to turn to maybe when all the other doors have been closed um and can can realize their dreams in the same way that that me and my partner were were fortunate enough uh to have that benefit of so i will always feel like i have a vested interest in a stake in ensuring that agencies like yours and
00:56:41
Speaker
wonderful women who decide to be surrogates also you know view this as something that is a positive thing. And so bad actors can just take one bad seed to poison the well. I think that's why it feels like it's hitting so close to home you know right now.
00:57:01
Speaker
Yeah, no, for sure. i mean, you're so right because it is, it feels like you have to combat so much, you know, when you're even on a journey, then you get questions and then you see, you know, news headlines and all of those things. And, you know, again I, love I, love, love your passion for no having experienced where you were and experienced, you know, what, where you are and,
00:57:28
Speaker
that these things, it is possible to have an ethical, safe, beautiful, supported journey. and And, you know, just like you said, continuing to to voice that, that this can be a reality. And what you see in the headline is is not a representation of what this industry is and can be. Absolutely. so Yes. Yeah.
00:57:52
Speaker
No, I so appreciate that. Well, um you know again, Monroe, I am so grateful to you to come and share your story. And i am so, I love that you have such a beautiful, happy ending. You know what's coming since I know you did your research, but I've been sitting here having, i won't tell you, it's all I mean, I won't tell you what number coffee this is, but um I will always ask,
00:58:22
Speaker
What filled your cup today? Literally or figuratively, what has been the thing that has filled your cup? So it's it is still morning here. So the day is young, but what has filled my cup today is And this my favorite part of the morning is getting so my my eldest, she's 18 months now, so she goes to daycare. My favorite part of the morning is getting her dressed.
00:58:47
Speaker
She's still young enough and open-minded enough to let me pick out her clothes. So what fills my cup this morning was just getting to put you know just make her looking cute as beautiful as possible and then you know daycare was closed today because of the the winter advisory but then i love like logging into the daycare app and seeing what all the other kids are doing and seeing her play with them and um yeah so that's what filled my cup this morning was just getting her ready for daycare getting her into a cute little outfit and i'm telling you like kids people say it's so expensive to like but kids clothes if you go to the right
00:59:19
Speaker
I'm not shopping at the bos boutiques here. We're going to like the Walmarts. They're cheap. So like, it's just fun. It's, it's very, very fun. I don't want to dwell on how wonderful parenthood is. Cause if you're listening to this, you're probably still trying to get, get here. But once you reach the promised land, I'm telling you, this is as good as, as you can imagine.
00:59:36
Speaker
um So that's what filled my cup this morning was putting on her little, her little outfit. And, um, you know, But I love that. That's the little stuff. that's the That's the memories. That's the stuff that you know you you just hold on to. I'll never forget because my dad was also the one that got me ready for for daycare in the morning. And I went through a period of time where I only wanted to wear this one pink dress. And dear sweet dad washed it every night and brought it to me every morning. And he would let me twirl. And I mean, I've i mean i've never felt like a more beautiful princess. So, you know, I know doubt that is Dads are awesome like that. um
01:00:23
Speaker
I love it. I love it so much. That just makes me so happy. Well, again, thank you so much. i mean, you have walked two different journeys, both ending with, you know, just beautiful, amazing daughters. And i so appreciate your willingness to share what you learned. And I am loving that Meg called you out so early for it. So out to her for sure. ah Yes. Yes. Thank you for having me. know that this is just going to be so helpful to so many. So um thank you so, so, so much.