Danny Casavant, guitarist with Graham Shaw and the Sincere Serenaders and The Bobcat

Transcript

Speaker: Hi, it's Stan here for Dusty Disks Radio. This is the podcast with liner notes revealing Chas with Canada's retro music makers.

Speaker: Today, I'm very honored to have as my special guest, veteran guitarist extraordinaire Danny Cass event. Perhaps best known as a member of Graham Sean, the Sincerest Serenaders and the Bobcats in Vancouver and many other bands in Winnipeg and Vancouver. He's been an active and successful Canadian artist since the sixties. So we'll be talking about his musical adventures and get some insights into the Canadian music scene from someone who has lived it. So thanks for joining me today, my friend. How are you doing, Danny?

Speaker: I'm doing good. I'm so glad that we're doing this, actually. It's taken a little while for me to come to the plate, but I'm excited about it. It's great. Oh, great. Well, I appreciate having you on because you've got such a history. And I guess by sort of default, you become a historian because you've lived the experiences and then talked about it and written about it. And so you're the kind of guy that we're looking for on the podcast because you've been around, let's just say.

Speaker: So the first thing about you is that you're from the Winnipeg area and we can talk about Winnipeg and the influence that that cold, God forsaken in some people's minds played in the Canadian music scene. It's unbelievable what came out of Winnipeg. Tell me your experience there, getting immersed in the music scene. Yeah. Well, it's really interesting that the Winnipeg thing, Neil Young said it was the Liverpool of Canada.

Speaker: or North America, actually, is what he said. Which made sense because in the parallels in terms of the musical, I mean, it's different from Liverpool, but it's also quite a central and also isolated place. So I grew up there. I wasn't born there. I was actually born in Saskatchewan, but from the time I was five years old, I lived in Winnipeg, and that's where I cultivated my interest in music.

Speaker: ultimately ended up in bands in the mid -60s. Yeah. Well, you're a schooled player. I mean, what did you take for lessons? And you play piano and guitar every time I've seen you when you were the Bobcats and stuff. So you must have taken lots of music lessons because you're a schooled player. Well, it's an interesting question because my mother was a piano teacher and a music theory teacher, Toronto Conservatory. But I came up pretty organic in the beginning. I didn't know what I was doing like most people

Speaker: And, uh, but I, um, you know, I got interested. I mean, uh, you know, I'm, I'm now going to be 73. So I came up, uh, interested in music coming out of that late fifties into the early sixties culture. Uh, you know, television and radio were, were the, you know, that was our connection before I ever heard a live band, you know, like most of us back then, you know, we, we had, you know, we liked listening to, you know, uh, Chuck Berry and whatever. And of course,

Speaker: You know, but when I was in terms of your question about education and stuff like that, I fuddered around quite a bit in the beginning. You know, I had my dad got me my first guitar when I was, I guess I would have, how old, it was 1960. I was nine years old. And he got it at a pawn shop and it was actually in retrospect, a good guitar. I shouldn't have gotten rid of it. It was a harmony arch top, but I didn't even know how to tune it.

Speaker: I knew nothing, but I just wanted a guitar. And, you know, I was a bit of a nerd kid, so I guess I figured, well, I can't play hockey. He's got to do something. And hockey or music, I guess, is your choice, right? And Winnipeg. Well, you know, it's a strange thing that I get so many of my music friends that, you know, they play hockey and that was just a total wipeout. You know, it was just useless. But anyway, my dad gets me this guitar. I know nothing, you know, I had no education really, but my mom was a piano teacher, right?

Speaker: So they're encouraging me because they can see that I'm, you know, I'm interested in musical, I guess, you know, and so time goes by. I get, you know, the, I don't even know how to tune or anything. I get a book, you know, how, you know, Mel Bay book and what happened then, how my actual music education happened was a kind of a combination of, which is quite common back then, you know, you,

Speaker: You know, my dad and I, my dad actually took me for guitar lessons at a place on St. Mary's Road. It was bizarre. This woman ran this thing and you had a choice between Spanish or Hawaiian guitar. So it's like, okay, we'll go with the Spanish thing. I've got a Spanish guitar, which means regular.

Speaker: And, uh, my dad actually took lessons with me. We learned on top of old smoking and stuff like that. Well, he was really trying to, you know, uh, support me. I always remember my dad and my mom were really supportive of me, uh, because they, I think they realized that was, uh, you know, I was kind of an artistic kid. I used to draw pictures and I was just that kind of a kid. Right. And, uh, what ended up happening is I got really sick when I was, I guess I was 10. I'd already, uh,

Speaker: I had a little bit of exposure, like, you know, on top of old Smokey, et cetera. But I didn't really know what was going on. I didn't really know how to tune. But my mom, I got really sick with the whooping cough. So I couldn't go to school. So my mom was there and the piano was there. And, you know, I was in my long johns and just sick as a dog. And I had my guitar and I was just trying to, you know, amuse myself with the guitar because I couldn't do anything else.

Speaker: And my mom actually took, uh, took interest in my inquisitive thing. And she said, and I said, I don't know what's going on in the beginning. It shows how to tune the guitar. So all the keyboards over here, she played like an E note on the piano right above middle C. It says, make it sound the same on that string as this. And that's where it began. And that's where it began. And then I, you know, I ended up actually, um, you know, getting, getting, uh, further into it. I learned all my basic chords, like I'm sure you did.

Speaker: in the very beginning. You went right to the back of the book where all the chords were. Well, it's funny, you make a good point because when I started playing guitar, you only know three chords, but you have fun with those three chords and then you start learning a bit of theory. You got it. Because every time I saw you, especially with the Bobcats, you always played keyboards and guitars. So I thought, okay, well, obviously you had a background in both and guitar, you excelled at, but your keyboard playing was decent too.

Speaker: it brought both of those on the stage eventually. Thank you. But having fun with it. So the old school sort of training of the conservatory and stuff kind of could suck the musical life out of some people because you're just learning scales and arpeggios and you're learning songs you don't really like and whatever. Yeah, it's an interesting point as well in that, you know, my mother was like an actual ARTC teacher, pianist, and she loved music. She was Irish. She was right into it.

Speaker: And, uh, but she learned like on the farm in the beginning, you know, the whole deal. So she came up, she was a natural musician as well as trained. And what happened with me is I learned my theory on the piano because it made more sense. And I did my exams too. I actually did the Toronto Conservatory exams, but I didn't really know what was going on. And she never actually gave me piano lessons. Like I never had any, all that I learned on the piano was from

Speaker: being inquisitive about theory and chords and scales and that, and being in bands around guys who could actually play. So I would just be watching them and asking them questions, and the piano was always at home. It was like a concurrent hobby with the passion for the guitar, which became what I would play in bands. I never really played the keyboard and the band until the Bobcats.

Speaker: Okay. Yeah, it's interesting because I was very similar. My mom was a piano player and I wanted to know like, you know, if you have a G minor nine, you know, what are the notes in that? And the piano is great because you can lay them out, you know, and you can get the notes hard. And I love that because I wasn't really a great piano player. And to be honest, I didn't really want to play piano because I really liked guitar and that's really all I wanted to do. But

Speaker: I know the chords and then I took, so what I did was I took conservatory theory, but I didn't take piano lessons. So I took preliminary grade one, grade two, and half of grade three, just so I can hear it. That's exactly what I took. I got halfway through that green book and I was like, what the... The history and harmony was like, okay, I'm good. But you know what happened with me though, is that years later, I ended up going to the Mennonite Brethren Bible College to study music in university.

Speaker: And I took it the next step. But in the very beginning, and it's a funny thing, I know so many guys like you, and Bob White was the same way. He had a basis of music and a basis of harmony. He taught himself though. It was crazy. But so many of us, you know, we wanted to know what the notes were in the chords. We wanted to know that, but we weren't really interested in becoming pianists or keyboard players necessarily.

Speaker: But it was our, it was the medium for learning. And that was what my mom did for me. Uh, yeah, it was a very fortunate, you know, sounds like your experience similar. Well, you know, I wanted to have fun. I wanted to play rock music, but I also wanted to know if someone says, you know, it's, it's a B flat minor 11. I want to know what the notes are in that chord and understand why they are the notes they are. So that was important to me too, even though I'm not a jazz guy, but you ended up taking lessons from Lenny bro. How did that work out?

Speaker: Oh, that was amazing, actually. I mean, there's an awful lot of stuff that went on. I was always really inquisitive. I got into the, you know, Johnny Smith guitar method and stuff, and I knew a fair bit. And I always watched Lenny Bro. He was our hero, Winnipeg. I watched him on TV with Ray St. Germain, and I ended up going out to see him play quite a bit. He was my hero, along with, you know, the other guys, Randy Backman, Kurt Winter.

Speaker: those guys, so it was sort of two schools, the rock school, the jazz school. But Lenny was obviously in another world altogether. There was nobody ever close to him. And I actually, I met him a couple of times, just had gigs and stuff, but I mean, you know, I was in awe of the God, you know? But I ended up actually, he came back, I didn't know this at the time, but he'd been playing with Anne Murray in Toronto and touring, and Dr. Music as well.

Speaker: And he came back and he was playing in a little coffee house called the Ting Tea Room. And of course, any chance I had to see Lenny Bro, I went there, right? And I saw him and I just, I took it on. I just said, hey man, would you be interested in giving me a guitar lesson? And he said, yeah, man, no problem. When do you want to do it? And I'm like, holy shit, what have I got myself into here? But at the same point, I was really serious. I don't know if you've seen that stuff online. I recorded all of my lessons, not all of them,

Speaker: a great number of them on reel to reel with Lenny Bro. Yes, you did. So he gave you permission to record the lessons that you were taking from him. Oh, he was really happy that I did that. Lenny was a wonderful guy, man. He was very supportive and open. Anybody that you probably talked to who took lessons from Lenny would give you the same evaluation. He was just really supportive. And he said, no, this is cool, man. You're never going to remember all this stuff. Wow.

Speaker: Well, good on him for doing that because he could have easily said, no, I'm just, just between me and you, but then you ended up creating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you ended up creating a historical record that you probably weren't even aware of the full import of that at the time. That's most definitely true. It's most definitely true. I mean, I was thinking about it from the point of view. It's funny. I bring the tape record. I had like a TC five 30 or whatever it was just lugging it with my guitar over the snow banks to go to Lenny's place. Yeah.

Speaker: And I'd bring it home and I'd put it up on the dining room table and play it. And my mom would listen and sit.

Speaker: That guy really knows what he's talking about. You know, I can remember that. He talked about, yeah, well, it's just interesting because you knew how much I adored as playing. His ability to describe things was he can cut to the chase really well. You know, like, for instance, a diminished chord, you know, like you'd say something like, like, man, it's like, you know, you play like a dominant seventh chord, man. And like you take the root and you pick up off a half step, you got a diminished chord.

Speaker: And I'm like, how cool, you know, I'm like, you know, and of course I'm soaking it all up and I have, he liked me because I was, I had my theory together, right? And, you know, I could understand, I couldn't play.

Speaker: I mean, it was embarrassing at points, but lessons are like that because they show you stuff that you're learning for the first time and you're fumbling around and trying to figure it out. Then you take it home and kind of hunch over your guitar for a few hours and get it figured out. But you feel like a bit of a dweeb at the time because you can't get your fingers to work right. You nailed it. He's doing it perfectly. Plus you're nervous because the guy's a genius and you're getting tired.

Speaker: Exactly. Well, Lenny was a wonderful guy, man. And I always really, really, really look at him and some of the other guys. Like you're getting back to the Winnipeg scene, it was so rich with musicians. And as a young guy coming up, I mean, I had some great, great musical role models. Yeah. And so what was your connection with, you know, Burton and Randy and Greg Lescue, I guess, and Kurt Winter and

Speaker: There was a lot of guys that came out of that area, is that right? Yeah. Ultimately, I got to know them all personally, but when I was younger, there was years between us. For instance, when I was in my first band in 66, I was 13 going 14 and Bert was in a group called the Devarons, which were the band he was in before the Guess Who. I think he's three or four years older than me.

Speaker: So these guys, when you're a teenager, that's a lot. And Baskin was like, you know, nine years older than me. But they were the guys we watched, right? Plus a lot of guys you never would have heard of, you know, I mean, who are brilliant players like Donny Thompson, you know, their names mean nothing to most people unless they were there. But I watched those guys as a young guy, you know, because our band, we were dead serious. We were in the basement practicing. We were digging, actually.

Speaker: We rehearsed all and learned tunes all summer of 66 and we were gigging Wow, we did one gig in the summer actually, you know playing Gloria, you know and you know, whatever the little red riding hood Stuff like that, but we were serious. We wanted to play good, you know, so we watched those guys

Speaker: Yeah. Well, you were, you're one of those guys too. Like I often talk about the musical experiences that people have, but you pay your dues. Like you get together with a bunch of guys, you practice and practice and practice several days a week. You polish up the tunes. Maybe you have four or five of your favorite tunes that you really got nailed. And then you go out and pay your dues, right? You could just go out and hammer it out.

Speaker: Yeah, well, I mean, you know, everybody's experience is a little bit different. But Winnipeg, there was a real circuit of community clubs that you would play and high school dances. And I don't know where, but you grew up in. Well, I was born in Ontario. I was born just outside of Toronto in Guelph. And then I came out here with my parents when I was 10 years old. So most of my musical life. But my uncle had a very well -known band in southern Ontario called the Hourglass.

Speaker: Yeah, so he was he was my big influence because he was well, I guess 16 years old. He's my dad's younger brother, but he was quite well known and and did well in the music business. So I kind of I wanted to be like him. I wanted to emulate him. So I just always assumed I could do it. I always loved music. I always pursued it. Same same what you're saying. You know, you're curious. You're up there finding gigs. You're learning tunes. You just did that whole experience, right? So

Speaker: on shows, man. I hear you play and I hear you sing, man. It shows. I mean, you're a pro. And, you know, that, that comes from paying dues and from really, really, really, really wanting it because you go against all odds. And I mean, it's believed, you know, it's not an easy life.

Speaker: Well, because I often hear guys say, well, music isn't a competition. And on the art side of it, okay, maybe that's fair enough. But when it comes to making money playing music, you're doing right at the competition. There's no doubt about it. I mean, the thing that's so funny is you're so naive when you're young, right? Yeah. Unbelievable. Like we were sure, you know, we were going to be like the next big thing, you know, I mean, on a certain level, you know, when you're getting it, we used to get the thing that went up with the DJs would

Speaker: would introduce you at dances. And the DJs were gods, right? They were like the guys who were playing the discs. And we thought we had really arrived when I was 15. We thought we really, of course we were just another band. Well, you know what they say about young people is you don't know what you can't do. So you just get your guitar, you get your guys and you go out and play. And it's a whole new world, right? But I mean, like thousands of other kids, you got stars in your eyes and you want to go and play in a band and do your thing.

Speaker: When did you figure that you could actually try to make a living or do something more serious than just doing the weekend bands? Well, that's an interesting question because we played quite a lot and I was in bands quite a lot. I think what happened is that reality set in a certain point, but a real crucial thing that happened or a real pivotal thing is when they changed the drinking age in Manitoba.

Speaker: So it went, the shift happened from community clubs. Plus I was getting older, I was like 19, 20 years old. The shift happened where you could play in bars and that meant that you were traveling and you were playing like in a whole different milieu. I mean, it was a different trip altogether. And I think at that point it became kind of more of an occupation for me and that I thought I could pursue it. So they dropped the drinking age?

Speaker: Yeah, they dropped you down to 19 or 18. 18, actually. Oh, wow. OK, there you go.

Speaker: It changed everything because prior to that, there had been music in the bars, but all the bands, the guys had to be 21. So, you know, it was a very generational thing, you know, where a lot of the guys that I ended up hanging out with and learning from who became my elder peers had done their time, uh, in community clubs as well as in bars. And, uh, and you know, you know, the difference for sure. So did you, did you have a solid band or were you more of a mercenary at that point, like a hired gun guy?

Speaker: Well, actually, I was always a band guy at that point. You know, it was always I would get in a band and what would happen a lot in Manitoba, Winnipeg. I mean, I had been in dedicated bands. My first band was together for nearly three years. OK. You know, but going forward to the time period we're talking about, it was a kind of a thing where you would put together a band and you would go on the road and it was often put together by the agents. They would they would say, OK, you know,

Speaker: There's a lead singer, here's a guitar player. We'd rehearse and we'd get a gig and we'd go and we'd play in Brandon and Canara, et cetera. But they were dedicated bands. We were rehearsed. The thing about Winnipeg that's interesting is that our role models were like the Guess Who and all of these other bands who were really tight. That goes right back to way before I was playing in bars. So we would really rehearse vocals. We'd really rehearse.

Speaker: arrangements and stuff, even though we were playing in these God awful little places, we still took it seriously. Yeah. Well, that's a good point. That's again, back to my point about being a competition, because there was a lot of good bands out there. So the agents would say like, you know, if you guys want to get these gigs, we got a list, B list, whatever, you got to be good. You better practice and you better be good. Yeah. And a lot of it had to do with politics, as you know, uh, you know, if you happen to be in a, happen to be in a kind of a scene,

Speaker: or a circuit or have friends or whatever. The bands, there was a record label in Winnipeg called Franklin Records. A guy named Frank Weiner had the big agency there. It was called The Hungry Eye. And he recorded bands like, I don't know if you're familiar with any of the bands, but did you ever hear of The Sugar and Spice?

Speaker: I have, well, I had John Anderson on the program too. Oh, perfect. And he's really an expert in Winnipeg, especially music scene. I know John very well. Yes. Well, I'm sure. Yeah. And, um, well, yeah. And then I haven't, I heard that name. I don't know any context still about it. So finish your thought. Yeah. Well, they were, they were a band that, um, actually Randy Backman had some involvement with as well. And the Mongrels was another band that he had even more, uh, you could put in.

Speaker: But these bands, they came almost, almost naked. But they were the real number one project for Franklin Records, for Frank Weiner. And they had management. They were great. I mean, they were tight. They were kind of the people that I looked at. I knew Sugar and Spice had three women in it, the Murphy sisters. And I've known the Murphy sisters since before I even really played, because my mom was the organist.

Speaker: at the church and they were in the choir back when I was a kid. So, you know, I was watching them, you know, making it and stuff, but I was just the schlub kid playing guitar, you know? But, you know, I was always, I'm not blowing my horn, but I was very serious and, you know, people knew that I could play, but it's all about kind of where you end up. It took me a long time to actually get hooked up. And that was much many, many years later when I got hooked up with kind of the more the business, you know?

Speaker: Yeah. Mostly I was just, I was just playing, I was literally paying my dues. I was going to the PA, you know, all these horrible gigs, you know, getting, you know. Well, it's, it paid off for you because you play great, but, uh, did you, did you know Neil Young? Did you have any, uh, no, I didn't know Neil. Neil was a little bit older. He was in between me and Randy, right? He was, uh, but I was aware, uh, I wasn't really aware. You know what I found out? This is hilarious. I went back for a Graham show. I was sincere serenaders reunion.

Speaker: in 2010. And this woman comes up to me with a yearbook from school. And I'm signing this yearbook. And in the yearbook, they have like the sock hops and stuff. And Neil Young and the Squires played at my school. There you go. But I missed it. I never even saw them. Oh, geez. Well, it doesn't matter. They were just another band at the time. I mean, there was better bands. Whatever.

Speaker: But it's an interesting thing. A lot of the things that were going on, I mean, we could have no concept of the historic importance of it. I mean, we knew the guests who were happening. I mean, that was the chat down on the reflections and then the expressions and then the guests. They were the high watermark. They were the guys. We watched those guys, like hawks.

Speaker: And then I know Marty Kramer, I've had Marty on this podcast and worked with him lots too, but he started with Burton and he was the one that arranged a lot of those dances and the community clubs and stuff too. That's how he got his start. With the Devarons, Marty and I are very old friends and I remember getting to know Marty in the 70s and of course he had a long history before that.

Speaker: But I've heard many a story about Kramer, right? Well, I mean, he's been everywhere and done everything. I mean, he's got a book, you know, he's written a book. So is it out yet? No, but he's got a publisher. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, you know, Kramer, though, I mean, that's the generation, like, you know, just not even a generation, but a few years different, you know, these guys were, they were the guys that were moving forward.

Speaker: And I ultimately, you know, with time I ended up going to, like we talked about music education, right? I was always interested in having lessons with Lenny and stuff. But I was always a rocker and a country guy too. I really liked country quite a bit. And that's why Lenny liked me because he was so eclectic.

Speaker: That's part of the magic of it. You try everything, you embrace everything. You're young, you're hungry, you're thirsty for whatever you can do, and you just bring it on. And actually a big role model in Winnipeg, as far as being an eclectic player, was Randy Backburn. Because he was very eclectic. He would play all styles, and it was kind of a hallmark of certain guitar players that come out of Winnipeg. Edmonton as well, you'll see to a certain extent.

Speaker: There were specialists, right? There was guys who were specialists. A guy like Kurt Winter, for instance, he was a full -on rocker.

Speaker: He couldn't play country, you know, didn't matter because he was so good. He is excellent. I mean, I'm a huge Kurt winner fan and that what he added to the guess who and what he brought to the guess who and the solos and the stuff he played is fantastic. He was very compositional, you know, I mean, he was not so much an improviser, although he would, but his slide playing and his melodic solos.

Speaker: And we got that from Randy as well, where you come up with a solo that people are going to remember.

Speaker: You know, that doesn't come in their head like a David Gilmour thing, right? So you got it. So I got to ask you about Graham Shaw, because I had Graham on the on the podcast and he what a funny guy. Oh, he's an interesting dude, man. Very, very good. So how did how did you get hooked up with Graham Shaw? Because you're in this sincerest Saturday. There's not the original version, but I saw the video of you in volume two at the Saint Vital and stuff. And just ripping it up. You're playing a strat and a great band.

Speaker: Oh, man, I tell you, that band, it was special. It was a special band. Well, what happened there is interesting is because I think I mentioned I was pursuing my musical education. I went to Edmonton for two years and I studied at the Grant McEwen. And I was I was kind of a jazzoid, but I was still a country guy. I was still a rock guy. And I ended up there's a guy named Dale Russell, who I was just a little bit older than me in Winnipeg. And I ended up rooming with his brother, who was a bass player.

Speaker: And Dale had a house gig at a place called the Town and Country in Winnipeg. And believe me, this gets to Graham Shaw. So, Dale was leaving the gig. He ended up playing with the fake guest who actually many years old. Yeah, another story altogether. But Kim said to me, his brother Kim, who was the bass player, were rooming together, says, Dale's leaving the Town and Country, which was a really great gig. A house gig?

Speaker: Lenny Bro had been the house guitar player there one time. And he said, Dale's going to leave and he likes your guitar playing a lot. Would you want to do that gig when you finish school? I says, are you kidding? Of course. So I go back to Winnipeg and I start playing there. And it's kind of like, you know, with the ruffled shirts, the cufflinks, you know, it's like a steak and it's run by Greeks, you know, it's one of those places.

Speaker: And, uh, but it's a real high -end gig, right? So people would come by, like Don Hunter would bench the guest. He would come by, you know, uh, all these guys, you know, in the music business to combine and they took notice of me and I ended up hanging a little bit. It's just a kid, right? It was my early twenties. And what ended up happening is I ended up getting hooked up with all these different singer songwriters. Uh, yeah, like I started with, uh, I don't know if you know, Dan Donahue.

Speaker: Or if you know, you probably wouldn't know these guys, but these are very solid writers. Rick Newfeld, who wrote Moody of Manitoba Morning. Anyway, so I was on the scene as a guitar player, put it that way. And I was a gun for hire at that point.

Speaker: You know, when I left the, when I left doing that house gig, I went into that scene and I was, you know, I was, I was very full of, full of it. I was into it and I could play a lot of style. So people liked me. And what happened is I was doing a rehearsal.

Speaker: for this thing. And one of the people that was in this unit was Alana Ziramba, who was one of the female singers in Graham's band. And she came up to me and says, you know, Chris Anderson, who was the original guitar player in Grand Chant, the Sincerest Serenadius, was leaving the band. And she said, would you be interested in doing some work with Graham?

Speaker: and the band because we love your playing and would you be into it? And I said, yeah, why not? And it was more of a casual level at that point. It hadn't gotten real serious. But nonetheless, I knew how good Graham was as a writer as well as just being a multi -instrumentalist.

Speaker: Oh, I mean the guys are quite a brilliant mind man, you know, yeah, you know, especially back then it was it was so fresh and I ended up doing one gig with them and it was before Gord Austin was even in the band, believe it or not. Did you know Gord?

Speaker: I don't know. I don't. He was the drummer in the band. He was in Moojaja with Greg Leskue. Is he a great personality too? I just see so hilarious those guys. Gordy? Oh, Gordy's right out there. I love Gord. Yeah. Oh yeah. Anyway, so Gord was actually was Bob Brett who ended up in Le Pox. Anyway, the original drummer and then he went and then Gord came in and ended up becoming a member of the band. And, uh,

Speaker: And we continued from there and it got, you know, it got really, really good. We worked hard.

Speaker: Yeah, but I mean the music, like the videos I saw are just fantastic and Graham is so versatile. It's a natural personality. He's playing the harp and the, is that a cornet? He pulls out at some point. Oh yeah. It's actually a trumpet, but yeah. Yeah. He just whips it out and starts blasting away on that. I'm thinking this guy's crazy, but he's so good. You know what? The thing with Graham is just so musical and he didn't know fear. He was actually a really good banjo player and fiddle player too.

Speaker: There you go. I'm not surprised. He was like a dilettante, really. But at the same point, always played the right thing because he knew what his limits were. But he was a real character and such a good songwriter. And we rehearsed. I'd go over to his place in St. Vital.

Speaker: And, you know, we would rehearse vocals and we'd rehearse, you know, he would play original stuff for us. And I used to carry a little ghetto blaster around with me. I was big on tape. Yeah, there you go. You know, I was always at the edge of tape, you know, like first reel to reel with Lenny. Now I've got a cassette player and I would record, you know, play that line for me with the gram. OK. All right. You know, whatever.

Speaker: And I'd go home and I'd learn it, you know, so that, you know, because it was a heavy pressure thing. I mean, this is a real bad one sophisticated arrangements and stuff too. Right. I mean, very good. Definitely challenging. And actually it was a really huge part of my development as a professional musician playing with Graham Shaw.

Speaker: Yeah, no good. I while I was super impressed because my friend Craig Zerba, who I'm sure, you know, I know Craig. Yes, of course. Yeah. Well, he's the one that said, you got to have Graham on your podcast. You got to talk to him. He's, he's great. And then I thought, okay, fine. I will. And then I did. And I was really impressed just with the natural, but, but the thing with Graham, he didn't, the meat, the business part of it just didn't work for him. Right. And then the record companies and he just ended up telling him to have a nice life. And, but you guys went to LA and recorded, did you not?

Speaker: Yeah, we did. And, you know, it's kind of sad that his pop career didn't go where it should have gone. But, you know, timing is such a big part of it. You know that. Well, also, he didn't want to be just a slave to the record company. He said they wanted to send him in for a makeover and stuff. And he goes, I don't want to make over. I'm just me. Like, you know what? What?

Speaker: I don't agree with that because i did you look at his hair after i left. Yeah he was but that was part of the that was baked in the cake of who he was that was part of his personality was just a wild crazy guy.

Speaker: Actually, if you knew Graham, he was more sort of from, anyways, my opinion. But, you know, no, I mean, the big thing with him is that he was such an artistic, self contained guy. Like I would make a comparison with Graham to a person like Paul McCartney, where the vision was very clear as to what he wanted to do musically. You know, so therefore, you know, he wasn't willing to sort of

Speaker: you know, compromise himself, which I think is he's a true artist, actually. And, you know, that doesn't always go over in the music business.

Speaker: Well, no, especially when you've got a lot of people that you can, you know, they're putting a lot of money into you and they're going to try to promote you. You got to get on the bandwagon and sort of get with the program. Right. And if he's resisting, which he said, he told me, honestly, I resisted. I didn't want to do that. So he ended up. And that's actually quite accurate because, you know, I saw it happening not just when I was in the band, but also after I was in the band.

Speaker: He did what he wanted to do, but I think also the timing was kind of rough because, I mean, if you listen to that Capitol record, which I think is a fabulous record, you know, I'm so fortunate to be on that record, you know, that I played what I played. It is a great record, but the thing was, though, and we had Kenny Edwards producing this, which was, you know, Linda Ronstadt's bass player forever, and we had serious people, Jim Nyberg, who was engineering,

Speaker: It was big time, right? But the thing was at that particular point in history in 1979 is when we did that record in the fall of 79, right? And came out in 80. That was when the knack was happening. And that's when that was going on the skinny ties, the short hair.

Speaker: New wave stuff the new wave was happening and we were actually I mean Graham I think had more to do with Randy Newman and and Frank Zappa and the Beatles You know his his music, you know, his stuff was not what you would call new wave at all So I think stylistically there was some issues That okay, you know, we're gonna change and I'm glad he didn't change them because he made a great record. I

Speaker: Yeah, so you're you're in LA. You must have thought, OK, I've made it now. I mean, here you are late 70s, early 80s. You're in LA recording with the major act on a major label. Right. You must have thought, OK, I mean, I'm here. Did you ever think of moving to the States? Do you ever think of moving down there and pursuing? Well, not so much then, not so much then, but much several years later, I did. At that point, we were you know, we were just this Winnipeg band that had what was going on. You know, it was an incredible

Speaker: environment to be in, frankly. I mean, you know, I actually, you know, I had a tuna sandwich with Linda Ronstadt.

Speaker: What? I mean, it was a trip. But as far as thinking about having made it, I don't know about that. I think it was scary in a lot of ways because it was the big time. It was no longer... I did a fair bit of recording in Winnipeg. I wasn't there by accident. Neither was Graham. Graham had a lot of action.

Speaker: But when you get right down to it, I think that we all anticipated success and hope for success. And I'm just happy that I had a part of it.

Speaker: Yeah, well, you went to the big dance, right? I mean, like you said, now you're a small fish in a big pond and you're looking around going, wow, okay, here we are. We're at the center of the universe in LA recording with all these heavyweights and stuff. And you've got to forge a path. So I guess my question would be, what's your next move? Like when you're sitting there thinking, okay, what am I going to do now? And then

Speaker: You obviously left Graham Shaw's band and then had to sort of plot your course too, right? Well, that was a difficult period because there was, you know, there was, you know, like, you know, I don't want to go into grim details enough.

Speaker: but it was a bit of a parting of the ways. It was very difficult for me, but I was embraced by the Winnipeg music scene like you wouldn't believe. When I left that band, within a year I was doing a national CBC jazz special.

Speaker: I was embraced in all the songwriters and the people who knew me. So I came out of that band and it was a little bit harsh. But at the same point, that's the dues that you pay in the rock and roll business, man. There's an expression rock and roll eats its young. I was young enough to bounce and I think it did a lot for me, although at the time it felt really difficult. Fair enough. Fair enough. If that makes sense to you.

Speaker: Yeah, fair enough. And then so you end up back in Winnipeg. How did you end up in Vancouver? What was the interim like? Oh, so many things happened. Give me the short version. Oh my God. Well, you know, I became sort of like the go -to guitar player in the sessions and stuff. There was me and a couple of other guys that were the top guys.

Speaker: And so I ended up doing a lot of recording, a lot of CBC soundtrack work. You know, I became like a real sort of go -to pro type of guy and I was very, very driven to be.

Speaker: that type of guy, right? Because I'd seen LA, seen what that was all about. And every city had its A -team, you know, recording guys. I became a part of that whole thing. And I ended up, you know, doing all sorts of gigs. But a real pivotal thing that happened for me is I was connected with Winnipeg Folk Festival, Mitch Podolek,

Speaker: who's the guy who started the festival. And he was a very powerful guy. And he, we used to argue about what is folk music. I said, Chuck Berry spoke music. Okay. You know, anyway, but Mitch, you know, he had a lot of respect and I loved him as well. And he's gone now, sadly, but he introduced me to a guy. He hired me as the festival guitar player.

Speaker: No, like I backed up. You wouldn't believe the people I got to back up. This was now you are a hired gun now. You're just I went into Graham's band as a hired gun and I came out of it. But it didn't matter. It didn't mean that I wasn't in bands. I was in Rocky related, which was really

Speaker: a good band, but it was all hired guns in the band. Yeah, right. One of those bands, again, if you ever heard of Rocky related, but it was a great band. Oh, it's a tremendous band. But anyway, so Mitch says, you know what, you're the guy because you can play all these styles, you acoustic, you can play electric, you know, so here I am on a golf cart, right with all these guitars, you know, going around playing, you know, John Hammond, and this guy and that guy.

Speaker: And I'm just like, holy shit, I've really arrived. You know, this is really cool. And what ends up happening is he introduces me, and this is a pivotal thing that happened to me that got me to Vancouver. I was introduced, he said, I want you to accompany Amos Garrett.

Speaker: And Amos Garrett, the famous Amos Garrett from Midnight at the Oasis, Paul Butterfield Blues Band, Jesse Winchester, everything. And I'm like, this guy's one of my heroes, okay? To this day we're friends and he's still one of my ultimate heroes. And I was like, you can't be serious, what am I gonna do?

Speaker: I'll play rhythm guitar. Well, I was supposed to play rhythm guitar, but at the same point, it was like this is and then I meet him and he's the nicest guy. Oh, man, I've heard all about you. Mitch says you're great. So we ended up doing the main stage and I did a good job and he loved what I played. We were playing like all these old jazz tunes like Lazy Bones, Georgia On My Mind, things like that. Yeah, it was wonderful.

Speaker: And so we said, well, you know, the typical show business, oh, we got to play again, you know, you know, I gave him my card because in those days I had a card.

Speaker: And I never thought that anything would happen. But what ended up happening is he ended up giving me a call several months later. He had Colin Linden playing guitar with him as his second guitar player on the road with his band. And Colin had to go back to Toronto for some reason or another. And Amos was in a bit of a spot. So I said, he said, can you make it to Calgary? I said, yeah, I dropped everything and I got on, you know, I got on the train and I was there.

Speaker: and I ended up playing with Amos on the road for the remainder of that tour. No, I just did a couple of gigs. I went back to Vancouver, Winnipeg, and then he hired me for a full tour. And we ended up coming to Vancouver.

Speaker: where my mom was living already. And I played at the old soft rock cafe with him. And I met all these musicians men and opened doors for me. Amos opened the doors for me. Yeah, I always, always, you know, and I went back to Winnipeg, but I had this in my mind. It was hard to leave Winnipeg because I was very established.

Speaker: Right. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah. Cause you got a whole, it's a whole new world on the west coast. I remember the soft rock. Wasn't it down on Broadway? I saw fourth Avenue, fourth, fourth. Okay. I saw Alan holds work there in about 1982 or something. Well, that's when I played there in 82.

Speaker: in 82 and I played with Amos and I played there with Bender Bergen and another dude. Anyway, so that was the beginning of my, that spark, I saw Gaston, I saw Powder Blues, I saw Doc Fingers, Al Foreman, all of them, right? And I ended up hooking up with a guy I'd known from Edmonton, a guy by the name of Chris Norquist. Okay. The drummer, yeah. Quite a great drummer. And Chris,

Speaker: Chris remembered me from Edmonton when I was in school and stuff and whatever. And he says, hey man, you know, we should come down and sit in. We're playing at a place called The Anchor. And I said, okay. And he had like, Doc Fingers had the gig and it was Jack Lavan on bass and Chris on drums and Gary Colliger on guitar. It was a tremendous guitar player. And they said, well, you know, come on down and sit in, you know. And I met so many people. I met, you know, Lindsay Mitchell, I met,

Speaker: You know, whatever. And I had lit a fire near me. I hadn't moved yet. And I finally made the move in 1983. That's how I got to Vancouver.

Speaker: Well, it kind of makes sense. Cause if you go down to those kinds of environments, you end up hooking up with people fairly quickly. You're a great player. You've got lots of experience. You're nice. You kind of relate to everybody while you're in, right? You're in the club, so to speak. So yeah, you're still an outsider. You're still an outsider, but you're, but you're on, you've got some cred because of Amos and Chris and, you know, uh, but I was still an outsider, you know, it wasn't the same as being Winnipeg, you know, isn't it the same history? But I remember seeing you down at the American actually.

Speaker: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, I remember going down there and jamming and you were down there. Oh yeah. I remember those days. Yeah. Well, cause Danny Tripper was there and Jerry Doucette. That's where I got to play with Jerry mostly. Cause I, I was a huge Jerry Doucette fan. I liked them earlier. And then he was down there lots and you know, he wasn't living the best life, but he was still. Oh, none of them were, none of them were.

Speaker: I kind of avoided not that part of the scene I avoided but I did I did really appreciate Jerry and then of course JB on bass and yeah, Gretchen Dell would come down sometimes and then Donnie McDougall came in one time and we got to hang out. Oh cool. Donnie's so talented eh? Yeah, no it was a cool scene so so you got so you end up in Vancouver how did you hook up with Bob White? I know you know you're you're you and Bob were good friends and you guys had the bobcats and you guys were a great band. Well our history goes back quite a long way. That's what I thought yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: or in history of Winnipeg. I mean I was aware of Bob going back to 1970 because he was he was like a kind of certified rock star when he was 18. He got in a band called Justin Time who had records and he was like this young guy you know and I was like scrambling around as a hippie you know whatever.

Speaker: But I saw, and I knew Bob had played in the community clubs and that, and I'd seen him at the music stores, you know what I mean? But I'd never played with him until later, I guess it would have been about 77 or 78, something like that. And we used to hang out at the music stores, you know. We ended up playing in a couple of bands, you know, we played in, I think I mentioned Ruth Neufeld earlier. He was quite a guy, you know, he'd had a big record deal.

Speaker: The Bells from Montreal had done a song, Moody, Manitoba Morning. And Bob was in there. He had cred, right? He had cred. And I was this young sort of hotshot for a higher guitar player. We ended up becoming buddies and hanging out and playing in a couple of different bands. We played with Rocky Rowletti. We played with, you know, different guys. You wouldn't even know them. But, you know, we ended up becoming good musical guitar brothers. We ended up living in the same house together.

Speaker: We ended up, uh, we shared a house. Well, I knew you had a long connection. I didn't realize it was from Winnipeg, but that kind of makes sense. Right. And then, but Bob had that, that presence and that silky smooth voice. Oh, it was amazing. Yeah. He was born to sing, man. That guy was like born to play and sing. I had such admiration for him, like way before we played together. And then when we played together, we just clicked like it was incredible, you know?

Speaker: So he moved out a year almost a year before I did after rocket. He jumped out of rocky related I stayed and And then I decided because of my Amos Garrett thing and all that other stuff I decided it was time to leave and then we hooked up in the in 83 When I was finally moved to Vancouver, we hooked up just hanging out really, you know what? I mean, we weren't playing it up together anything, but we we'd sit and play guitar whatever and we went and saw a duo and

Speaker: Do you know Dan Smith? I don't. He was in a band called Six Cylinder where they were very... Six Cylinder. Yeah. Yeah, they were popular. Ain't nobody here but us chickens. They had that. You got it. He was the guitar player. He'd great. Okay, there you go. Yeah. So I got to be buddies with Dan and around that same time and Bob and I were hanging out. And Linda Kidder. I don't know if you know Linda Kidder. I do, yeah. I do know Linda, yeah. Well, Linda and Dan had a duo. They were called Phil and the Blanks and hilarious.

Speaker: Like Phil was their drummer and they were the blanks. And the drummer was a drum machine. It was a rolling drum machine. Phil in the blanks. So anyway, it was hilarious. So they said, oh yeah, we got a duo going. Bob and I were looking at a duo. What's that about? And we had actually done a duo in Winnipeg, one gig.

Speaker: had just two guitars playing Beatles songs. So we went out and saw them at the Mr. Sport Hotel. And Bob and I sort of looked at each other because they were really good at harmonies. Bob and I looked at each other and said, you know, we could do this. Yeah. So we went along with Quaid. We bought another another rolling drum machine. And I I'm always have been. I'm kind of like you. I'm a bit of a hustler. Right. Trying to get gigs all the time. You know, you got to be that way. Right. For sure.

Speaker: Actually, it's funny because that was the dynamic between me and Bob. Bob just wanted to sing and play and run the PA. And that was the guy that would play and sing and get the gigs. Well, it's funny because I've had people call me and ask me how I work so much. And I said, well, there's only very few people around that can put a calendar together and keep it together. You have to either play with one of those guys or be one of those guys.

Speaker: That's you nailed it right there Dan you nailed it and it's and I think there's a balance that happens in bands Like, you know, bob was really technical and i'm not he was really good with sound Good with presentation with all of that because he just was he'd actually been a sound man at one time So he understood, you know about levels and all that junk, which I had no idea You know put me in front of a mic and i'll plug in and i'll play that's me

Speaker: but I could actually go out and get gigs. So, you know, it didn't take long for, uh, we, we named ourselves fat city and we, uh, we played together from 83 solid right up to when I played with it with, uh, Billy council. Um, and we worked like crazy.

Speaker: Like we were like, we felt, you want to talk about field calendars. Yeah. Oh yeah. You guys were very well known and very busy and in a good situation. So yeah, I know. Well then, so I guess we'll have to skip ahead a little bit, but so coming full circle, you ended up forming the Bobcats and then I guess Bob passed away suddenly and was it 2017?

Speaker: Yeah between that I think I need to touch on essentially what happened is you know that you know we were really serious as a duo and then we expanded it is to a trio with Chris Chris Norquist came in the connection was we ended up playing Expo The connection was with the the the Irish rovers

Speaker: They owned two different venues there. We ended up playing at the Waves Cabaret, which was where, and as a trio. And then we added, when Chris wasn't available, we added Davey Johnson, who goes back in history here, right back to the Shockers in the 60s. And so we became a band. We added Adam Roerlich on saxophone, keyboard, and guitar. And we really were very, we were really good, man. We were really after it.

Speaker: But, you know, I started getting noticed again by, you know, people like I was actually worked for long McQuaid between 89 and 90. And so I actually started swimming with a lot of people coming and going. And Lindsay Mitchell had been playing with Billy Calso. OK. And he decided to go and do a tour with Prism. And I was living in a place above the Olympia Pizza in Kitsilano. And one of the guys that was up there was Colin James. Another guy was

Speaker: Elmar Spania, who played bass with Billy Calso. And he said, can you sub for Lindsay? He's gone, right? And at that point I said, yeah. And before I knew it, I was in the band and Lindsay wasn't happy.

Speaker: Crazy, crazy. Anyway, but it's funny anyway, but it's true. I actually fell really in and at that point Bob and I were still doing some work, but it wasn't regular as much. We were kind of drifting. He ended up going towards the Roxy. He got a gig at the Roxy for nine years. He was in the Sorrell McCoy's there, right? The Sorrell McCoy's. That was a good band, man. Great band.

Speaker: Mick Villavi and all those guys. And Bob was in his element. He was back to playing lead guitar because he played bass when I played with him in the Bobcats or in the Fat City. And it was always a great guitar player, just a great musician. And so we were very bonded and time went by.

Speaker: And you know, things went by and I became a gun for hire again after after I played. Well, you were playing. How long did you play with Billy Kelsell? How did you do some tours? Well, no, we never toured, but we played like tons of gigs. I guess I worked with him. First thing I did with him was a recording session at Bullfrog Studio in 88. And then I actually started gigging with him more a little bit. He knew I was a natural for the music.

Speaker: We never rehearsed hardly ever, like at all, really. It was just to just jump in the pool and you better know how to play like Buddy Hawley, you know? You better know how to play like James Burton. And the thing is, he trusted me. So I stayed with that band for a couple of years and then I left that band and they formed the Blue Shadows. And I went on to play a lot in the country scene. And Craig Zerba, you know, we mentioned Craig, I did session work at his studio and different studios. I became kind of a gun for hire again. I was no longer in a

Speaker: in a band. You know, I mean, I had a lot of people that dug my playing. So it went on and on and on and on and on. And then when I'm saying Bob left, the the Roxy thing came to an end. And we were both kind of floating around. I ended up moving into the neighborhood where Bob lived, you know, in the West End. And we ended up, you know, I was playing in a band called Mike Henry, the Big Dog Band, which is my next big

Speaker: was a rhythm and blues band. And I played with that band for nine years. Yeah. Well, I remember that too. Like that's what I was going to say about your genres. I mean, because you were so multifaceted, you played on Lisa Brokop's album doing the country stuff and then pop and rock and jazz and folk and.

Speaker: adult contemporary retro Motown. Mike Henry is very well known for his Motown shows and we did a couple of shows with him. He did the Ray Charles thing when he came out and did that. Oh yeah, he used to borrow my keyboard and fake on it. That was a killer band. You know when you talk about the bands that matter in your life? Yeah. That was one of them. I was killer. Mike said, man, that is a talented man.

Speaker: They've been the key for me, Dan, frankly. The key for me is always aligning myself with a great singer, with a really great singer and a good frontman, because then you've got something to sell. You've got something. Yeah, that's right. I know like in the Bobcats and stuff, you were the guy holding everything together, playing keyboards and guitar and looking after things, but you weren't the out front guy and you were stage right, I think, in that band. That's exactly true.

Speaker: doing your thing and it works perfectly. Like you talked about the combination, you need that sort of personality and frontman and singer, and then you need everybody else to put it all together.

Speaker: It's chemistry, you know what? You've been in bands and you know how it goes. The chemistry was really good. It started casually. I mean, that Bobcats band started as Bob was doing a solo gig at the Dover Arms. And it was on a Sunday. And of course, I was still gigging doing the R &B thing with Mike and stuff. But I had my Sundays, but me and Jimmy Walker, who's passed away as well, I don't know if you know Jimmy. Oh, man, he was a talented guy.

Speaker: a guitar player. He played with Bruno Girussi's medallion. Tom Harrison. Tom Harrison's band. And he played with a lot of stuff. Anyway, so we're all living in the same building, right? And Bob had this gig, and me and Jimmy went down there and he said, well, you guys want to come down and sit in? You can, you know. So we did. And we went down and he brought his bass. Jimmy was playing bass and guitar, but he played bass. I brought my guitar. We sat in with Bob and it was automatic. Yeah, well, I can imagine. Automatic.

Speaker: And because of my background and Jimmy had played with Bob as well. So the manager, the, you know, Ed, Ed DeRoche comes over and says, you guys want to do this regular? You know, and he said, well, yeah, you know, but, you know, they didn't want to pay us. Right. And it was, you know, just tips. And I'm like, I don't know about that, but I'm making money with the other bad.

Speaker: we ultimately formed the trio and we called it, you know, we went through all sorts of names, but we came up with the Bobcats because it seemed to make sense because it was Bob and the cats. And so we ended up, but it was very casual and it was concurrent with my other band. And then it ended up, we used to do, I remember the Rusty Gull, of course, we used to do every Wednesday at the Gull as a trio.

Speaker: And there was no drums in the beginning. Our very first drummer was Darryl Mays, who played with Colin James and everybody. And he'd been the drummer and the big dog.

Speaker: So we ended up adding drums and then, I guess it was around 2006, when it transitioned, I was concurrently, I mean, talk about balancing a calendar, Dan. It was a trip, right? Balancing the two bands, you know? And Mike wanted to do more funk, so we got funk delicious. Before long, all of a sudden, boom, I'm 100 % into the Bobcats.

Speaker: Bob White singing, me playing guitar and keyboards. We ended up with Vic Pacheco playing drums with us after Darryl left after a period of time because he went off to play with Doucette and a bunch of people. And he was playing with Incognito and Rob Montgomery and those guys too, right? Well that was much later actually. Was it? Okay. Much later. So how long did the Bobcats run like I guess until Bob suddenly passed away? Until he passed away, yeah.

Speaker: 16 years. It was 16 years. From that very first, you know, spontaneous thing, it went for 16 years. It went through a lot of changes. But the one thing that was solid in the whole thing was me and Bob.

Speaker: Yeah, right. Jimmy had to quit, unfortunately, because he had health concerns, and he was working. And so we ended up with Jean Savoie on bass who ended up playing with us for 11 years. We had Harvey Kostenchuk on drums, we had Vic

Speaker: We had various different people came and went in the drum chair. It was mainly Darryl at first, but it was always that center of the center because me and Bob were the center.

Speaker: Well, yeah. And I saw you guys a fair number of times and you guys were very well known and did very well around here. So I was happy for you guys. And I was sad when, when Bob, so he, he never did say a cause of death. Do you know what? Oh, no, I know. You know, I can tell you for sure. I mean, Bob's health was impacted by smoking. He had COPD, he had COPD.

Speaker: And that's what killed him. That's actually his heart failure because of COPD. But, you know, it was amazing. The amazing thing about Bob White is he was the most driven guy that came down to performing. He would be not able to move equipment out of breath, hit the stage and you would never, you know, I have a recording actually of the last night we played and he's singing, you know, let it ride, you know, Fred Turner, you know, Fred Turner wishes he was that good.

Speaker: It was scary. And then five days later, he's gone. He died instantly.

Speaker: No, it broke my heart actually. Yeah. Well, I know it has a big impact because that's your, you lose your friend and you lose your job in a sense because that's your part of your band. Yeah. It was, it was, it was more, and it was hard because people wanted us to, well, why don't you just form the band again, get somebody else who says, well, I can't do that. I mean, we had to go, we went through something tragic in our band and we had to reinvent ourselves, but we didn't have a lot of choice in the matter, but.

Speaker: But what happened? Well, with our original singer Kim, she took her own life in 2011.

Speaker: Oh, I remember now. Well, it was devastating. I remember now. I just couldn't. Yeah, it was, well, Rev knew her quite well. And she was involved in the music scene, just didn't want to be here anymore. And I mean, I cried for a week. I just couldn't believe it, you know, but then you have to pick yourself up and carry on. What are you going to do? Right. So, yeah. But, you know, it's such a sad thing. I mean, there's different ways that people go, but suicide is hard. I've had a couple of friends with them.

Speaker: Yeah, that's no, it was devastating. So I want to ask you some rapid fire questions. Is that okay? I'll make them succinct. Okay, so the Beatles obviously influenced you a lot and influenced everybody else a lot. And maybe just a quick sort of how much of an impact the Beatles had. And do you think there ever could be another Beatles?

Speaker: I don't think it's possible to overestimate the impact of the Beatles on myself and on the world. As you know back, everybody says that Ed Sullivan show, right? And that was it for me too. I mean, I wanted to do music really seriously once I heard the Beatles. And I don't think they'll ever be another Beatles. I think that their impact

Speaker: culturally as well as musically was so huge. I mean, maybe something could happen, but I doubt it. Yeah, I tend to agree. And I often ask my guests, you know, how much of what you did was a function of the time in which you did it. And the Beatles was a function of their time as well, even though they were enormously talented and changed the whole musical world. But they changed our hairstyles.

Speaker: Yes, there you go. So next question, I saw a video of you playing sleepwalk, which sounds beautiful. And the string bands that you do, you're not using a whammy bar there. Is there a special technique? I learned that for me. Well, I already played sort of country banding and stuff, but when I played with Amos Garrett,

Speaker: As a matter of fact, if you listen to Amos' version of Sleepwalk, you can hear the influence of Amos. Amos is famous for string banding. There's nobody like him. It's unbelievable. It just sounds so silky. It sounds like a fretless almost.

Speaker: Yeah, well, that's the whole thing. It's all about touch and pitch. And I was very big into that whole thing prior to meeting Amos. And he dug what I did. But I mean, he's the master. He's still my friend. Yeah. And there's nobody will ever, ever touch what he has done. But thank you so much for saying that, man. That means a lot to me.

Speaker: Yeah, no, I looked at it and I was looking for a whammy bar. I said, there's no whammy bar there. It's all fingers. That's great. It's called manual multiple string bending.

Speaker: Wow, well, it sure is amazing. So then I saw a few videos of you demoing guitars at West Coast Guitars and jamming a bit and stuff. Do you still do that? Or you've got any endorsements and you're still teaching guitar at all? Well, actually, no endorsements. Glenn Smith and I have known each other since 1972. He's the guy at West Coast Guitars. We're very old friends. And I just go there and jam and whatever and pick up a guitar. It's not a gig. There's no endorsement.

Speaker: I wish I did have some endorsements. I could use them. I'm so broke. Anyway, no endorsements, but I am teaching. I've always taught. That's the other thing. I guess the influence of my mother. It's always been sort of a secondary thing because I know music.

Speaker: It was a way of supplanting my income over the years. So for sure. And you've got lots to share. I mean, good Lord, you've got a wealth of knowledge and musical knowledge and experience to share. So do you do it in person or online or at a store? Well, I've done it all different ways. I've done it. I did it. I'd worked for all in McQuaid for years in person and I've done it independently, you know, going to people's homes or having them come to my place.

Speaker: But during COVID, obviously, it became an online thing. And I still do online. I still do it on Skype or Zoom. And I haven't really been doing anything in the way of in -person, really, just the odd time now that everything's cool out. But I still teach. And I'm teaching right now something I've never taught before, which is music history.

Speaker: I'm doing a music history. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because you're sort of a music historian by default because you lived it all and now you're teaching some classes. I saw that down at the community center or something. Yeah, that's right. It's at the West End Community Center. I got a call from John Mitchell. I don't know if you're familiar with John Mitchell, but he's the guy behind Music 91.

Speaker: And he's a great player and et cetera. He called me out of the blue. And he says, they've asked me to do a course, but I've got no time. Would you be interested? Because I've been watching what you do and you write. I'm a good writer, he said. And I said, well, I don't know. I've never done anything like that before. So we'll come up with an idea. We'll roll it by the woman, Linda Johnson. And if she likes it, then you can.

Speaker: you know, you can teach. And I'm like, I'm thinking, I have to make this up. So I came up with the idea of talking about our generation. And it's a history of 20th century pop, not just pop, but all music, except for classical. And I've been doing it now. I'm into my second term now, a very successful first term. And it goes right back to the earliest. I'm doing a thing on songwriting. I go all the way back to Stephen Foster.

Speaker: you know, back in the in the 19th and the 19th century. Yeah. So, and you know, Gershwin, etcetera. Very cool. Chuck Berry and all the rock and roll history. Yeah. So, I'm loving it actually. It's it's it's you know, you're right. I'm kind of a natural for it because I've lived a lot of this stuff.

Speaker: Yeah, for sure. He just, you know, it's great. And, and, and the thing is sharing, you know, like, like what's that old saying, you know, find what your gift is and share it with the world. So the fact that you have that experience and knowledge, you know, sitting at home alone doesn't really help anybody or share that with the world. So the fact that you get to, to be a conduit for a lot of that stuff is really gives you a lot of meaning to your life. Right. And there's no doubt about that, Dan. I mean, and I think that, you know, we share in different ways. We share by our performances, we share by our teaching.

Speaker: We share by sharing what we've experienced. What we're doing right now is fantastic.

Speaker: I really dig this. I really am honored that you've actually asked me to do this. Oh, I appreciate it because this is exactly what we're trying to do is create a historical record as well and get people, you know, I mean, Susan Jax has passed away now, but we had two beautiful conversations with her, really frank, open discussions. Oh, thank goodness. Yeah, it becomes a historical record, you know, like I had Craig McCall on and he said that's one of the best interviews Susan ever did was with you guys.

Speaker: Okay, so carrying on my on my rapid fire here. Tell me about the Dana honey videos So you've been done doing some of those and I guess it's through millennia sound But you you had these videos and were you part of what's interesting about that is that came out of covid Dana and I were in our very first band together 1966 was called it okay called the collectors but are different collectors

Speaker: He was really a pivotal guy in my development, my very first bad, super, super talented guy. And we connected through Facebook, like that happens. And when COVID happened, he got this idea that he wanted to record some tunes. It sort of happened kind of organically. And we were just doing little snippets. We weren't doing full tunes.

Speaker: you know, he's a very meticulous guy, way more than me, actually. And so we're nailing this stuff. And I shared some of it with Mick Delevie, who you probably know. And he was like, Oh, man, you guys are cool. And so without even asking, he did a video of we did Words by the Bee Gees. And it was he synced it up with this, this performance from Ed Sullivan. And without even asking, he did it. And then and

Speaker: Dana just about had a heart attack. He said, I can remember, he said, I can die now. Wow, that's funny. Because he, you know, anyway, and it became a thing. We ended up doing 28 songs over a period of time and a huge array, all 60s tunes. And it got me singing again, which I really miss because I, you know, I really like singing harmony. And he even got me singing a lead on a few tunes, which was really cool.

Speaker: That's cool. Well, that's very cool. Well, and then you have a podcast as well. You've been doing the Danny's musical chats, right? So that's on Spotify. Is that right? People can find it on there. Danny Castle. Well, here's the thing with that. I kind of abandoned that because it wasn't good for many people listening.

Speaker: But I periodically go back into it. I'm glad you mentioned it because I've been thinking about reconnecting with it. It is an interesting podcast and it's not as focused as yours. If you've listened to them, you'll notice that I talked about it. I listened to a couple of them. Yeah. Yeah. They're all over the place, right? They're not particularly focused on one thing. I call it musical chats, but I'll go for talk about politics entirely for a moment. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker: But I like it. And if anybody wants to listen to it, yeah, it is on Spotify, down in his musical chats. I enjoy it. So all over the place here. But another question is about the people that remained in Winnipeg. So a lot of people left Winnipeg. Other people stay there. I know Joey Gregory is still there. I don't know if you know Joey or not. No, I know Joey from the Mongrels.

Speaker: Of course. Yeah. So there, I figured you would. And he's still in Winnipeg and he's, I met him and worked with him at the club region. Cause he was the, Oh, you played the region. Did you? Well, I did with, with, uh, Larry Branson. We did the Royal Emerson story there. Oh, were you, I recorded with Larry.

Speaker: Yeah. So I did some of that as well. And, uh, I think on his back tracks, I think you did some of the guitar parts and I did some too. Al Rempel came to my house and we recorded some stuff too, but I played live with him lots. Like I used to rent the band out to the, uh, legend shows and, and less vote and those guys. So Marty, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, so we did lots of those. We ended up quitting doing them because we didn't, like Les said to us, he said, you guys are such a good band in your own right, you don't really need any. He said, I can't pay you what you're getting for these other gigs because I need a backup band. I have to pay my money to the main performers.

Speaker: so we ended up just forming our own shows but it was a really great experience and i loved it but we got to work with joey and winnipeg and there's still a cool there's still a fair music community there and i think um who's the guy um jeff neil that plays with uh with street art he just moved back there i think

Speaker: Well, he's not originally from there, though. He's right. That's right. They came out of Sault Ste. Marie with the Shama and those guys, Mick and so. But anyway, he's he's in Winnipeg now, too. So I guess he is still somewhat of a scene there. There's still some people there. Oh, there's a lot there. I mean, you know, the thing about Winnipeg is it's still, you know, strangely, you know, everything changes. Right. But the musical community is very strong there. You know, Spider lives there, you know.

Speaker: A lot of good people still live there. A lot of good, a lot of young musicians, man, like the Brothers Landrith. I don't know if you're familiar with them. I've heard the name. I don't know any context. You want to hear the Brothers Landrith. Bonnie Raitt recorded one of their tunes as their new single. They're really good, man. Another question. How much songwriting did you do over the years? Did you pen any tunes of note?

Speaker: Well, not of note. I mean, I definitely penned and co -wrote quite a lot. When I had the Big Dog Band, we actually did about a half of an album before we ran out of money. Sue Leonard was in the band and she played with Katie Lange. And she was in our band at one point as a female vocalist and a songwriter. And there's a guy named Chuck Brickley. And we wrote together, we wrote a song called More Love, which is the one that I'm probably most proud of.

Speaker: Okay. But in terms of note, I mean, you know, whatever. Yeah, good songs, though, I've written quite a lot. I write a lot of instrumental stuff, actually, right? At home, I'm always doing every day I play, every day I play the keyboard, every day I play the guitar, every day I record. So, you know, in terms of having a career as a songwriter, I never, I never went that direction, but I've certainly worked with some good ones.

Speaker: Well, fair enough. No, I wanted to ask you about that because I assumed that you write stuff. And of course, you know, writing hit songs is very, very hard to do. And it's sort of a special skill unto itself. So I've, I've written lots of songs too, but never anything of, uh, of serious note, but, uh, the business has changed so much. What's a hit song mean anymore?

Speaker: Yeah, fair enough. And it's a whole different world now. So, so when you started out with, if I'd have said to you in the mid sixties, you know, what do you want to be? If you, if you just said, I want to be such and such, did you, did you achieve what you wanted to be? You got to be a guitar player your whole life. Well, that's a really hard question. I mean, I think I just wanted to, I wanted to play music with other people and play good music.

Speaker: I wanted to become a really good guitar player because I was emulating, I was listening to the guys like I mentioned earlier. As far as whether I accomplished it or not, I think I came to terms with the fact that I was in a business.

Speaker: that required me to be more than just a guitar player. I had to become a kind of a go after kind of hustler guy. I remember a guy named Bill Wallace said something to me once. You remember Bill Wallace? Yeah. He played bass in the Guess Who. Yeah. Crocus, etc. And he used to live in the same house as Graham. Bill said to me when I moved out to the coast, he says, you know what, guitar players, they don't join bands necessarily, they form bands.

Speaker: And I said, okay, it says, yeah, you got to make things happen. And I think I took that to heart because prior to moving to Vancouver, I'd always either been in a band or been a gun for hire guy, whereas where I learned my hustling skills. But I hustled, I think I learned how to hustle bands, the bands that I formed

Speaker: with other singers and musicians, I became that. So whether or not I accomplished what my goal was, I think my goals changed.

Speaker: Yeah. Well, fair enough. Because some people have a real vision of, here's what I want to do. Here's what I want to be. Other people are like, you know what? I get to play music. I'm going to do what I think makes sense at the time. And I'm going to leave it at that. So that leads to the next question, which is, you know, if you could do it again, what would you do differently? Like, is there anything you'd change? Would you stay in Winnipeg? Would you have played different situations? What would you have done differently?

Speaker: That's a really hard question You know a what -if to have a question I mean a lot of people were amazed that I actually left wouldn't pay because I was fairly well established but I was young and I was ambitious and I had a taste of Vancouver so I could you know, so I could have a regret that perhaps I could have you know gone further deeper because

Speaker: in Winnipeg, but I don't think there's any point in regretting that stuff. I think that I grew and developed and I've lived in Vancouver longer than I ever lived in Winnipeg, and as far as what I would do differently, perhaps I would have been a little bit more aggressive in the original music. There was no way I could actually survive like that from

Speaker: I was kind of built to gig. I was built to gig. Well, yeah, some guys, their life is in the studio. Other guys are playing live. That's my thing too. I've done some recording, but I like playing live. That's how I make a living. I guess the other point is you never see the path you don't take, so you can't do the hypothetical.

Speaker: There are for certain people, they are like, you know, one one lady said, well, I fired my manager. I just we had an argument and I fired her and I never should have done that because it changed my whole career. And if I go back, I would have got over that argument and we would have worked it out and I would have kept her. Oh, I got a whole lot of I have a long list of those kind of things. But yeah, but at the same point, it's you know, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, that's life. That's paying dues. That's the music business. It's it's it's a tough road.

Speaker: It's a tough road. And the thing is, you just got to celebrate the good stuff and try to get over the other stuff because it's always going to be that way. No, that's a good point. Well, then, so my last question for you is, are you happy and healthy? I know you've had some health issues, obviously, over the years and stuff. And how are you doing? I have. Happy and healthy? Are you doing okay?

Speaker: Well, I do have some health concerns, actually, and I'm going to be 73. And my perspective, especially after having lost so many of my friends over the years for various reasons.

Speaker: is that I'm hyper aware of the fact that I'm in the last part of my life, which at times is a little bit emotionally difficult to sort of come to grips with, but I try to remain inquisitive. Music, to me, is the greatest therapy there is in the world. And I love to listen to music. I love to go to stuff. So music is kind of what, in terms of being happy, happy is a kind of a weird word.

Speaker: What does it mean? Satisfied, whatever. I wish I was maybe healthier than I am, but I am the way I am and I'm trying to deal with it, you know, as best as I can. And I'm trying to remain creative. That's really key to me, is remaining creative.

Speaker: And I'm so blessed with so many good friends. I look at, if there's such a thing as happiness, I think the word that I have more is grateful. I'm grateful. Right. Okay. No, I appreciate you saying that. And again, sharing what you have experienced and sharing whatever knowledge and insights you might have that you can pass on and enhance someone else's life. That really does give your life an enhanced meaning and helps you get over the other stuff too.

Speaker: Well, that's true. I think all of us get battle scars from being in the music business. It's not exactly an easy life. Well, it's funny because I did a seminar on helping bands find paying gigs and stuff. And the first thing I start with is you always start from the premise that the music business owes you nothing. It owes you zero.

Speaker: and then you start working up from there if you do a gig and you get fifty dollars while you're fifty bucks up cuz it owes you nothing so then you start building from there and then and that's kind of been my attitude so i'm never disappointed cuz i always started zero. Anything above zero is a victory and i celebrate my victories yeah and the thing is you build on the victories right absolutely and i've done that for years yes.

Speaker: Yeah, I would love watching you on Facebook and seeing all these videos. Man, you sing great, you play great, you got good people with you, you have great solo, you know, I mean, you're the real deal. Well, I appreciate that. I still love it and I'm grateful, you know, talk about gratitude. I think as you get older, I'm just thankful to be able to do it and being thankful makes you play better and sing better and just be better and you feel comfortable, so.

Speaker: Well, yeah. And I hear it when I see you perform. I mean, you're very focused. And, you know, like you mentioned about me playing sleepwalk, you know, it's the parallel to me playing sleepwalk when you do your thing. No, I appreciate that. That was good. Well, I'm so glad you were able to come on. We talked about so many interesting things and you got so much to share. I just really appreciate it.

Speaker: Many thanks to my guest Danny Cassavant for being part of the Line of Notes podcast and sharing some insights from his many musical adventures and accomplishments. And Danny's active on Facebook, Dan Cassavant. And then of course we talked about Spotify and his musical musings. So we hope you enjoyed the podcast and invite you to subscribe to it and share it on social media so others can enjoy it as well. And we also invite you to listen to Dusty Discs Radio Tuesdays and Thursdays to hear music from the Canadian artists you're hearing on this show.

Speaker: So next time, I'm Dan Hare.