Transcript
Speaker: Hi, it's Dan here for Dusty Discs Radio and this is the podcast Liner Notes, revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers. Today I'm very honored to have as my special guest, multi -instrumentalist, touring musician, speaker and author, Bob Wegner, who wrote the book, High Class, a biography of the iconic Canadian band, Max Webster. So I look forward to hearing about his journey. So thanks for joining me today, Bob. How are you? Dan, thanks for having me. I'm doing fabulous. Well, great. Well, you wrote this book about this iconic band, and I'm looking forward to hearing about that. But I want to hear about you a little bit first, too, so our listeners know who you are and what your story is. You're from Southern Ontario, natural born musician guy that just got into the biz.
Speaker: Uh, no. um Wrong already. Wrong. is um it's It's an ever fascinating story, I guess, of of just, um how do I put this? Just parachuting into the music business kind of by accident. And music was definitely the thing that I always wanted to do. but But it was definitely not a direct path in getting there. But it's absolutely been the number one thing for pretty much my entire life. And there was just, there was no other path. I mean, I went to school to be a software designer, but just that wasn't happening. just It was completely music is what it had to be.
Speaker: Well, I read your bio on your, we you've got to bobwegener .com or .ca, right? .ca, yes. And lots and lots of information on there. It talks about your, all the experiences you've had and all the bands you've played with and all the people you've met. So you've been completely ensconced in the music business for, for quite a few years now. Yes, true. About 20 years now. And my first musical theater gig was 20 years ago, 2004. Lord, 2004 was 20 years ago, 10 more than time ago. And of course, ah eclectic roots and broad tastes and multi -genre. I mean, you've you've done lots and lots of different kinds of things, right? From musical theater to doing the Queen show and the Genesis stuff I saw in there. and And then of course, original stuff, you do a solo show. Tell me a little bit about that. Yeah, the solo show particularly is yet another thing that just happened kind of by accident. The reason it happened is because I was on the road for a year doing a tour and you're traveling in most cities,
Speaker: for for a week, and Monday's your travel day, and each new city we got to, one of the band, we booked an open mic, just so we could, because you're doing the musical theater thing, it's eight shows a week, and no matter how much you love it, just its it is it is a tricky thing to navigate, because you're just getting so proficient at one thing that you don't want to just be doing that one thing, you need for your own sanity to do something else. So one of us would book an open mic in the new city, and And we kind of got to spread our wings a little bit and just do something else. And the one guy was writing an album and and I was just coming up with solo acoustic arrangements of different pieces, anything from medieval loop music to figuring out eventually complete Pink Floyd albums with a looper pedal. And and so now I've got this solo repertoire, which I also have a a PowerPoint presentation behind me that I can just control with the one little button in your in your presentation.
Speaker: And yeah, it's and it's it's kind of a bizarre and vast repertoire, I suppose, because yeah's it's just it's largely pop -oriented music, but yeah but I play classical music and I do some world music too. but ah But really, my Kung Fu in that is doing, yes, Genesis, Floyd, Beatles, Zeppelin, just that that kind of stuff that really works well for an acoustic guitar with a lubar pedal and just layering the parts, you know, brush songs, and actually Max Webster stuff too, and just at just a large variety of stuff, but it's largely 60s and 70s, mostly British stuff. It just seems to work best with that.
Speaker: Well, very cool. And I guess that, so what was your connection with Queen too? Cause you did simply Queen and then you, you know, Brian may you have got some pictures with him and you auditioned for that band. So that was pretty big deal. Yeah. Well, that was musical theater. That was the we will rock you show. And I first contacted him about 20 years ago and what's nuts about it is just anyone could have done it. He had his website called Brian soapbox. Now he's on Instagram with his millions of followers, but back then he had his blog. And anyone could write to him. And of course, he implodes someone to kind of be the ah the eyes and ears and filter through everything because not every bit of fan mail can go to Brian, but mine was a professional inquiry. And it thank goodness it got through to him. And he wrote back to me the next day. And it took a couple of years, but I ended up
Speaker: finally getting an audition for for the show and I got the job. And that kind of led to, I'd say most things that happened subsequently. So I'm extremely extremely lucky that that that's that's the way it all panned out. But that's where it started. yeah and okay And looking back on that now, just how improbable that would be if that were now. Because see, back then, not a lot of people were into learning Brian May stuff on the guitar. I mean, you had your traditional guitar heroes that everybody knows and loves and still knows and loves. But back then, not a lot of people were learning Brian stuff. And so I kind of create a niche for myself. And a few of us did, you know, a few other guys, of course, that got into the wheel of rocky thing. But now there's just entire online communities of hundreds or thousands of people
Speaker: who are all amazing at this and they even build their own versions of Brian May's guitar and they interact with each other on Facebook and everything. It's amazing that this all exists now. So I just, I got in at a time when I was just, there was not much competition. So I got really, really, really lucky. Well, good for you though. I mean, you know, that you, you take the shot and you put it out there and and it works out and then you back it up too. You have to know the material and you do the audition. So you got through all that. So, um, you know, you did, you did what you needed to do. Yeah. Well, I've always loved Queen. So I knew the stuff inside out.
Speaker: and But nevertheless, when you're going into a musical theater environment, you're not just playing the songs. It's a version of those songs that have been completely rearranged and adapted to the musical theater environment where what's on stage is what counts way more than what happens in the band. and You're the soundtrack and it's a great thing. and and That's one of those earlier shows where they started incorporating the band actually into the show, not just sit in a pit. But nevertheless, that's what it is. And as a guitar player, musical theater, the first thing to go, guitar solo. I guess that's right. And then, you of course, you got to learn this stuff, too. You can't be reading a chart or anything. You've got to get out there. and It's a concert, not a recital, as they say. Yeah, but you do have charts. And I remember it took about
Speaker: 40 or 50 shows to finally get off book because there are two separate guitar parts and and just the arrangements were very specific and it took time to learn because there's so many those little events where where there's dialogue on stage and then you're just looking on beat one watch the conductor just to move his eyebrows and then and then there's a downbeat on the one just you have to watch these things okay so there's so much work just playing you were looking at you were looking at the charts for the first while yeah absolutely then you just know it inside out but oh yeah i mean the parts were were chartered out and they're they're more of a guide they're not an exact note for note because you can't get string bends and expression and so many of those yeah things especially in rock and roll and charts but they were still a really solid guide for about 98 of it and and and of course over time the songs morphed and we
Speaker: And some of the parts just maybe changed a little bit and not just the guitar players too many of us in the band So and it's it's just the way these things go and it's just a whole different discipline doing musical theater and in rock and roll It's just not rock and roll. Yeah. Well, so I was quite impressed with all the stuff that you've done I mean you've been super active and you've been playing lots and stuff too and then you became ah somewhat of a historian I guess you became enamored with the music of max webster quite early and uh You know, they really do have a cult following. I guess that that's maybe an overused expression. But in in Max Webster's case, I think it's ah it applies where they have these loyal fans that just love Max Webster. And sorry about understand how did you get hooked up in that and and enamored with that to the point where you wanted to write a book about it? um Once again, just by accident, because just I noticed that there's there was a great book about basically every major band.
Speaker: And just a nice coffee table book with all the all the photos and the day -by -day chronology type thing. And that that hadn't been done for Max Western. I just saw, okay, there's a little market to tap into here. but but i But I'm hesitant to even use the word market. We're just conditioned to use that word. I was not thinking capitalistically or opportunistically. I make things because I want to make them because they need to be made. And you know of course, we have to eat and sleep indoors. But that's not that's not the reason why why I did this. I did it because it just needed to be done. And there's a ton of people, that as you say, that love this band that broke up over 40 years ago.
Speaker: And man, you should read some of the feedback that people have given, not nearly so much about me, but the subject. People love the subject. They love this band. They miss this band. And they they recite the lyrics in a way that I've never seen people in casual conversation recite lyrics. People deeply love this band. And they were so happy with this book when it came out, which was just thrilling, really. Yeah, well, and from the book, ah yeah I mean, obviously, it's a labor of love. i I could tell that right away. But from the book, the the quote is, this is no ordinary book on a band. It's part scrapbook, part encyclopedia, part travelogue and part scavenger hunt, which is a pretty apt when you read the whole book, which I did. ah That's a pretty apt description of what you do.
Speaker: Yeah, well, well, thanks. It's, ah I just found there was no other way to do this. Just, I'm always someone that just puts in 100. Or I just completely do not care. I just don't put in 65%. Just, i you know, I guess that has its place. The generalists, we need generalists in this world. Absolutely. And one could easily argue that, that generalists are more adaptable. and And, and it's easier for them to find success in life. But the world needs specialists as well. There's everything in its right place. But you track the gigs too, like the dates and the gigs that they did. I don't know if you got all of them, but you got a good chunk of them, right? ah No. and Truth be told, there's about 1500 dates in the book, which is nuts. If you just talk to any current band or a band from the last 20, 30 years, just 1500 dates in under a decade.
Speaker: that' But we we have to understand that back then, there there were so many things that created a climate for that to happen. Number one, the can -con things get broke off from Lighthouse, really lobbying for that, where we suddenly had, I think it was 15 or 20 % percentage percent of Canadian content on the radio. So suddenly, there's a whole bunch of domestic and local bands that are being spun on FM radio now, Max Webster being one of them. And then that same year, when we not in 71, Max Webster came a couple years after that. But in general, the Canadian music starts, you know, Chilliwack, all these bands show up on the radio now.
Speaker: And then you have Ontario, particularly the drinking laws decrease from 21 to 18. And that is such a massively important event. And because those two things just create a younger audience engaged in Canadian music. And you can just go to dozens of venues any night and see music six nights a week and Sundays off. So and sometimes a Saturday matinee. So you're playing seven shows a week, sometimes eight because you might have a high school gig matinee on the Wednesday or the Thursday as well. And so bands were so busy back then. So Max Webster at their their peak of their touring, they were doing 250 dates a year.
Speaker: And crazy that's a lot of playing. And I've heard a hundred live recordings, just Mitchell's voice never once went on him. He always sounded great. yeah and And that's absolutely nuts. Just thinking of musical theater people going back to that, just people would take shows off because it was just hard to do that. But in musical theater, you're singing six songs, maybe seven songs per night in a lead role. And just for most voices, that's enough to do that six nights a week. And you you call the understudy on for the ah for the matinee. And meanwhile, these rock bands, they were crushing it. But again, they they probably weren't always putting in exactly completely 100 % and having to rest their voice and and pace their voices and everything. But nevertheless, it's just it's amazing that that people can have that kind of endurance and back then they did.
Speaker: young and hungry and they wanted to do their thing. and So one of the first things, just broad brush, one of the first things you make really clear is that the band is somewhat of an enigma. you know They have a huge fan base, but it's not too huge. they They're very successful, but not as much as some, maybe their rivals like Rush or even a Triumph. there and The thing about Max Webster, they're quirky, they're serious, they're progressive, but they're kind of mainstream. They're unique and they're melodic and they're heavy. like It's a really, really hard band to sort of nail down. And so if I can just read a quick quote from the book, the way that you put it here, I think this was a quote from somebody else. It's, they ambitiously combined elements of progressive rock, folk, punk, new wave, Mediterranean music, namely Greek, Turkish, and Arabic, and whatever one can describe Frank Zappa as all may while maintaining that the melody came first. and And you go on and you keep going on. But ah talk about that just a little bit of just about how this this this sort of grab bag
Speaker: of musical influences came together to become what Max Webster became. Who wrote that nonsense? It jumped out at me, you know, I thought, okay. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's ah that's your, um what can I say, your horn of plenty. that's that's ah In one sentence that's that's kind of largely the influences that that became the sound of Max Webster. I mean, they even when they started off as a cover band, yeah they had to do the the stuff that everyone else was doing, the Bowie and Zeppelin and all that, but they were doing Tull, Jeff Rotal, they were doing Frank Zappa and they were doing it really well. There's tapes of them absolutely crushing it doing Zappa covers.
Speaker: So they're extremely competent musicians, but not just that. They were just excellent at what they do and and just always wanted the challenge, just going out of their way to be different. That's a big part of the philosophy that musically and even visually, i mean the the the shops they they shop at to get their clothing, it was just, yeah, what isn't selling? These are the clothes we want. yeah and And so that's always been was the philosophy and all of their entire aesthetic, not just musically. But of course, yeah, they were into the the jazz fusion stuff, they were into
Speaker: Captain Beefheart, Mitchell was really into Alex Harvey, and just stuff that was kind of left of center and quirky and different. And that's just that's always in that band's philosophy. I mean, they're in the studio, they're they're doing On the Road, and it's a full band arrangement. That's not the final album version. But I've heard tapes of this, and and they this is the version they played live. So and so people heard this, even in public. and but they were going to record it and Mitchell just listens to a playback and it's just yeah no this just sounds like other things happening now okay everybody out of the room I'm just gonna gather my thoughts and I'm going to start redoing this and I'll call you guys back in and and so he did the bass himself he re -recorded the guitar
Speaker: And, uh, and it's just very minimal brushes and, and little keyboard flourishes and that's on the road. And you listen to that and it sounds like absolutely nothing that came out in 1977. And that's what Max Webster is all about. And I think you got it or you didn't. Yeah. And fair enough, but philosophically that works for you and it works against you. Yes, of course, because unfortunately there are business mechanisms at play and they want to know how to market you, how to categorize you. And you cannot describe that band in two words or less. Well, that's right. And then also, you know, I mean, they they were playing all the time, high school dances, clubs, whatever. And so normally a band would think, well, if we play a stone song, everyone's going to really like it and they're going to get up and dance and everything else. But if you play a Zappa cover, you know, they're going to kind of cross their arms and go, okay, this is cool and everything, but it's not really.
Speaker: you know going to resonate the same way as as the party crowd would like. So it's the the constant rub and it seems to me, Max Webster, they they forged their own path and they weren't going to deviate from that path no matter what happened. Is that fair? Well, yeah, absolutely. And well as the lyric in Czech says, no compromise, no deal. And that was always their philosophy. And they hit a point where they they just ruthlessly and relentlessly pursued this philosophy, and they hit a point where they would still fill up rooms and just doing all that they wanted to do. I mean, within six months of Terry Walkinson being in the band, they're playing entirely original songs. All the covers are gone.
Speaker: And they wrote a ton of that material and in that year that ended up on all of the albums, not just not just the first album. and Because they got 30 or 40 originals by that point. I mean, there's a ton of songs they've written. And and they're playing most of them live. And and just they're filling up rooms, these these bars in Toronto. and the borrowers were hating them because the room is packed because you you sell more drinks when you have people leaving and then new people coming in but people wouldn't leave because they loved how interesting and unique and different this band looked and sounded and acted and it was a parody of a rock band it was it was just such an amazing and
Speaker: and bizarre and wonderful and unique thing that you actually hung around for all three sets but the bar owners had to hire them because people still came well so so they they were they were not your typical lowbrow sort of bar band right they were they were more sophisticated than that and they drew a let's say a different kind of crowd would you say Yeah, I'm sure the the the typical rock and roll audience also watched them without question, but but but especially in the States when when they were backing Rush, you could see the different crowds that liked both bands. And the the college crowds really liked Max Webster, just the kind of more educated
Speaker: young he just you I don't know how to say that without sounding like a a raging snob, but but you know but that's one of the things that Mike Tilka told me when I interviewed him, that just the college crowds always got Max Webster. And you go to into an arena and maybe a quarter of the people got Max Webster. And if you got it, you absolutely loved it. But three quarters of people just had no idea what was going on. because it just wasn't lowbrow and slapstick humor comes across, everybody loves Looney Tunes, but there's still a sophistication to the timing of slapstick humor ends and and they were absolutely masters at doing that stuff and executing it.
Speaker: Yeah, and then like you know we talked earlier about how many shows they did, but I mean, trying to keep that up night after night as well, especially when you're doing in six -nighters or playing six nights a week and stuff. to You got to dig deep to stay fresh, right? And you got to be, if it's a labor of love, you have to love the labor. because if you don't, if you're you know if you're playing stones tunes or cover tunes every night and you're not loving that, that's going to get tired pretty quick. So it sounds like they had this sort of force of you know being creative and and refreshing what they were doing in the process. Well, absolutely. And so, yeah, they they play the cover tunes, but they're just writing as much as they can. And you clearly from listening to the early Max Webster recordings, as you can on my Max Webster live YouTube channel,
Speaker: What's it called? Max Webster Archive. and and And you can just listen to them playing their covers. And just yeah, other they're doing it and they're fine. but But I mean, Kim's not even really the lead singer at that point. Mike Tilk is singing half the the certainly half the cover songs. And Kim's kind of just a guitar player. But you can just tell from listening to the chronology of these live recordings that that that they're definitely willing to play kind of mediocre original songs over playing good cover songs because they're so keen to establish themselves as this is our identity and we ah we're just doing this huge variety of stuff. Yeah, there's one from 74 at Larry's Hideaway and there's just about a dozen different genres of music that these 20 or so original songs have. There's a bluesy song and and you know and and just
Speaker: And in a funky song, they're just they're working out what what they're going to be. And then they also have Toronto Tannos, and they have Blowing the Blues Away. I mean, two completely different songs on the same album side eventually. And and they've got Research of Beach Resource, and they've got Battle Scar, which was eventually one of the last p songs they ever recorded with Rush, as we know. And Blue River Liquor Shines. All this stuff that was on the later Max albums, and they all just have a different aesthetic, different different tempos, different dynamics. just yeah different different everything and they're just playing these songs in a row trying to figure out their identity and just refusing to play covers. just It's so admirable that philosophy of being a band.
Speaker: Yeah, it's it's it's a strength as well because most most bar bands or working bands would have just you know seceded to what the club owner wanted or what the people wanted and just played the beer drinking music and and carried on, which is what most of them did. So um good on them to show the strength that they did, the strength of mind and the strength of creative determinism to to make that happen. And that's just it. and And on top of that, even when they're trying just to sort out what their identity is, they they still don't sound like anyone else. yeah That's what's so interesting about that band. I mean, everyone has their influences, of course. And there's the occasional zappa -ish moments. But for sure, by the time you get to the second album, High Class and Borrowed Shoes, there's just not an ounce of their their influences in any overt way there, which is just it's so amazing that they created made such quick steps.
Speaker: So I know you know we talked to before we came on about the lineups and and the different people in and out of the band and you know you want to talk about the positive side of it and I appreciate that because they created such cool stuff but the i mean a lot of people sort of coming and going and they're shifting the lineup and they're trying to figure out what what their identity is in the context of having different people in and out of the band as well. so And then Kim was forced more into the lead singer role, which you know I've heard Kim and in ah numerous numerous interviews where he's very self -deprecating about his own voice and his own singing and wanted to be a guitar player, basically. So talk about that a little bit and about how the lineup focused in 73 -74, I guess, when they started recording and and becoming that distinct sound.
Speaker: Right. Well, in general, you're right, bands, they they it can't sound exactly the same when you change. you change members. It's just just the way it goes. I mean, just look at the Eagles, for example. I mean, yeah Randy Meisner out, and and then Timothy B. Schmidt in. It's just, it's different. It's not the same band. And I mean, the long run is is an album of a band that sounds like they're they're breaking up now that we know the history, but still just separating that from it, just it's a very different band. And any band is going to be like that.
Speaker: And if they go through lineup changes, and Max Webster, of course. you i you First of all, you've got a keyboardist in the band before Terry Walkenson. who Jim Bruton, he he ended up leaving about a year in because he just didn't think it was really going to go anywhere. And because they're just, they're playing mostly small bars. I mean, they're doing the gas works in Toronto, but now but maybe that they're just doing small gigs and he's all, yeah, it's not really happening. And he just went back to school and ended up being a poli sci professor and at UBC and really smart guy, very nice guy too. And so, but then, but then you realize that he's kind of the Pete Best of Max Webster.
Speaker: because he kind of has to step aside and then Terry shows up and and he's the secret sauce. And they just knew right away this this is obviously the the thing we were missing, which is no slight to the keyboards they had. I mean, listen to those early tapes. Jim Bruton was a fantastic keyboard player and very Keith Emerson influenced and that in his keyboard solos and hearing among the cats and stuff. I mean, he's copping Keith Emerson bits from from ELP songs. nice And that it just still was complimentary to what they were doing. And so had that forever been Max Webster, it would have still been a great band, no doubt. But yeah, but you get tearing into the band and you just listen to this the those keyboards wash over you in songs like Gravity. man that's That's Max Webster. That's what that band sounds like.
Speaker: So and they were solidifying their sound. So your quote from the book, the band suddenly had a completely different sound with this wizard at the helm. Yeah. there's Yeah. with Without question, that's that's the right thing to call him. I mean, he was using, you know, 10, 15 year old gear. And people would make fun of him as he was lugging this stuff into and into gigs when they were playing with other bands. And and then after the gig, it's just, well, you had how did had you get that sound? Wow, that was great. You can just imagine in Wilkinson just not saying a word and just flashing the finger. you know Yeah. And because they were, because you you just, whatever it's, the how do how do you put this? you A bad artist ah or a good artist never blames his tools. and And again, you're forging your own path, right? Like they were, they were very, they seem very focused, myopic almost. This is what we're going to do. And this is how we're going to do it. And the naysayers can naysay all they want, but we're going to follow our path.
Speaker: Well, and that's just it. And and so to further to answer your question about the different guys in Max Webster, let me see. Let's look at the the drum chair. I mean, Paul Kersey and Gary McCracken are two completely different drummers. And they brought two completely different aesthetics to the band and they're both wonderful. And Kim ultimately wanted ah the Gary aesthetic to be the thing. And what what Paul brought to the band was never playing the song the same way twice. And it was very very unpredictable and very very spontaneous. It was very flashy. and and when And when that's the band's philosophy, then not everything is going to land. It was riskier. But when it didn't land, of course, it was a wonderful thing.
Speaker: But when you get Gary McCracken, he's a he's a little more polished. And but you kind of lose some of that spontaneity. and And again, that's not a bad thing because bands need to be polished, especially if you're becoming a proper touring band, just write your songs, especially when you have lighting cues. Now you you can afford lighting guys are going on the road. and And just that becomes a part of your musical philosophy that things have to tighten up just a little bit. And you gain something, you lose something because no one is the the full full package of anything. Everyone's going to have the things they can do and nobody can do everything. Not even Tommy Emanuel on the acoustic guitar. that he He can't really check that. you know So just no one's the full package. So that's bands. Then the bass chair, you get you get Mike Tilka and you have you have Dave Miles. and You have these guys approaching the songs in two very different ways. and you know mike Mike Tilka is is a strong backing vocalist and you have a very vocal band.
Speaker: But it's also a very quirky thing because there's almost this flow in anything happening with Kim and Mike. But then when Dave Miles comes in the band, you've you got this guy with maybe a little bit more of a jazz background. And as the songs are evolving, just some so of the arrangements of of the songs they do on Beauty Am I Sleeping, especially Million Vacations, just have a certain, just a certain complexity to them, which isn't to say Tilka doesn't have complexity as Plangy does. I mean, he he wrote those gorgeous parts in Gravity and Diamonds, Diamonds and Words to Words and in Context of the Moon, just amazing parts. But but but then you listen to later stuff like Charmonium and Look Out, and it's just it's just a whole different thing going on. It's just it's just a different sounding band.
Speaker: Yeah, fair enough. and And you make a good point about the people who are very strict in how they play and the other people who are more spontaneous. I played with the drummer for a couple of years who was just brilliant and and was just kind of all over the place, but in a brilliant way. So sometimes it was magic and other times it was like, what the heck are you doing? Yeah, I I can actually relate to that. and it's But isn't that the isn't that that's the great thing about music is just different people that you play with, you're going to get different experiences. It it sounds so trite to say that.
Speaker: but But it's the truth. well but speculat she truth and But especially in the context of Max Webster, where you've got i mean quite sophisticated and I would say complicated music. You've got you know fast arpeggios happening, you've got key changes, you've got to tempo changes, like very, very you know intense kind of musical stuff going on. So it doesn't lend itself to to being, I don't want to say sloppy is not the right word, but lackadaisical might be a better word. You can't be, you've got to be right in the moment with that stuff. Well, that's just it. And you just need the right players in that kind of a band. I mean, even towards the end, when when Kim's got to bring different guys into the band as it's kind of falling apart, just you had to have a certain level of musical vocabulary to play this music. And yeah there's a lot of chatter with Dave Stone.
Speaker: talking about his couple of months in that band and how much he loved playing in that band and how he and Kim were kind of, he felt it was the Jeff Beck, Jan Hammer type thing happening. But of course, Terry was capable of doing all of that stuff too. But but Terry was more of a textural guy and Dave Stone was, i mean he played with Richie Blackmore, just it's a completely different thing. yeah And so so he brought that world to to Max Webster and it was just very different. But he was kind of a, I guess, a heavier keyboard player and and maybe a little bit busier, but he wasn't a textural keyboard player. And it's a cool version of Max Webster. But to me, and you just you listen to just the high class or the mutiny, milling vacations, just all of this all that. even But even the early Max Webster, all those peers, they all are validly that band because they they're all different. and
Speaker: They're all wonderful. Well, that's right. And part of forging your own path is creative is is being creative musically. you've got to you know You can't just do an album the same as the last album. You've got to break out from that and do something different and grow as a band. Yeah. Unless you're ACDC. Well, there you go. Yeah. that's yeah but But it works for them. It completely worked. I mean, Angus years ago was, I think when they put out Black Ice, he was being interviewed for Guitar World, one of those magazines. And the guy asked him, hey, what what's it like doing the same AC -DC album 12 times? He says, actually, it's the same AC -DC album 14 times. yeah
Speaker: and so just he But it works. It's it's a philosophy. that But you're right, they're and they're the exception. Generally, yeah, you want to grow as a band and you don't want to do the same thing twice. And whatever anyone characterizes Max Webster as, those are five completely different albums, sonically and creatively. Yeah. And then, so that brings us to Kim. They all wanted to ask about Kim Mitchell and you know, I have a great admiration. Obviously he's one of my guitar heroes. I actually got to open for him but in Vernon here in 2009 in BC and got a picture with him, got to hang out with him and stuff. That was a big throw for me. He's always been a bit of an enigma to me because he's one of those guys. He's he's serious, but he's comical. He's a monster musician, but he's a fantastic showman. he's
Speaker: you know, and but he's quirky, like he's bouncing around in tights and comes out in plume pants and you know, I guess the one that you quote here, he dyed his hair blonde and he had those see -through boxer shorts and red bikini briefs and tennis shoes, like such a quirky guy, but a serious guy at the same time. I mean, is that's enigmatic in ah in an odd sort of way, wouldn't you think? Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the the brilliance of Kim is that the the quirkiness and the humor were always a central part of what they did. But there were such great musicians that you could just never write them off as a comedy band because there was just so much musically that was going on. I mean, you just would watch them. If you're watching them open for a band, they usually open with high class or coming off the moon and just you can't watch a band play songs
Speaker: of of that kind of especially high class, the song of that complex, they just start with with that kind of a song and watch that band and just be indifferent to it, saying, yeah, they're all right. Just no, no, yeah no, that is a great band. And and Kim's doing his rolling, dirty thing and jumping in the air. and um and with his googly eyes that popped out. And just all of this stuff that he did, and then they do Toronto Tottos and he puts on his crazy hat and and jumps around and we throw a cigarette in the air and catch it. Just all this this crazy stuff that was just, that was completely their aesthetic and it's it's a really cool thing.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, it it it makes him extremely unique. It's just that having that whole package and then the band was kind of quirky too, because those pictures, they're all they're all kind of bought into the the weirdness and the quirkiness too. It wasn't just Kim. I mean, he he had people around him that just were kind of kind of goofy a bit too, right? Oh, of course. and And they're not just going along with it. I mean, you're on the bus. I mean, you're fully invested in this thing. And mean especially you're on it, you're in, you're in the tour bus. I mean, I said on the bus in a figurative sense, but literally, you're on the bus, you're you're in your touring van, 200 something dates a year, and just you're not a passenger on that bus. I mean, that band, I mean, especially at the beginning, it's absolutely a democracy, you got four guys, bring in, bring in their own their own thing. And, and maybe,
Speaker: you know, towards the end, it becomes more of Kim's thing. but ah but but but But those classic lineups, you know, up to, including Millie Vacations, with Terry and the band, Dave and Gary, I mean, there they're not being told what to play. I mean, i I asked Dave Miles that flat out. He says, no, of course, those are my parts. You know, and it's, yeah, I mean, it's it's it's a it's ah it's a great thing. I mean, that of course, bands often have to have leaders. I mean, look at McCartney and the Get Back documentary. Someone had to be that guy, but there's a lot of reasons when a band is kind of falling apart. Someone's got to take the reins. But you listen to A Million Vacations. I mean, you have an extremely democratic band of four people contributing people. Good point. Because it wasn't it wasn't Kim's whole trip at that point. It became that, I guess, eventually when he went solo. But at that point, they were just guys trying to put something together and and
Speaker: Collectively so that's that was part of the magic of it, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean the hell you had know even Gary singing a million vacations And it's it's just you've you've got three lead singers in your band now. And kind of like Pink Floyd, where you just people argue about Pink Floyd until the end of time. But just without any of those four guys, it is not Pink Floyd. And then you have people saying, yeah, but the division bell is great. Yes, that's true. it's ah It's obviously different without Roger Waters, but you still have three of those four elements. And I still love that version of Pink Floyd, but it's not the same anymore.
Speaker: because the conceptualist isn't there anymore. And they still made great songs. but So bottom line, if you're going to elevate or pitch someone on Pink Floyd, just yeah, anything from metal to animals for sure is an extremely cohesive band of of four people. and And that's Max Webster for sure on the first four albums. So one of the things that came out to me in the book and in reading through it is that the the band really shuffled around a lot in the sense that they were opening act and then they were still playing clubs. They were they were doing the college and university circuit, of course, which they did lots. And and they became sort of ah an opening act for a lot of the bigger tours, but they did some of their own shows in smaller venues and stuff.
Speaker: must have been a real real difficult time for the band. like They were so sporadic and so it seemed so so disparate, that the the kinds of gigs that they did. So you're playing a coliseum opening for a band one night and then you're at a high school dance the next night and then you're playing a club two days later. Yeah. and And of course, until they broke out of that, I mean, by a certain point, the the smaller Ontario gigs were were becoming less and less because now they go to Headland Paperleaf Gardens by mailing vacations. Eventually, yeah. Eventually, yeah. Let's say in 1977, 78, you've been doing this thing for five years now. And yeah, you're you're you're backing Rush, you're backing Rainbow, Dixie Drags, whoever it is. and And yeah, you come back to Ontario and you're playing a small arena for 800 people.
Speaker: And so it isn't quite happening. So of course, hindsight is 2020. And towards the end of the book, mike when I interviewed Mike Tilke, he says, well, in hindsight, what we should have done is the same thing we did in Toronto. We should have picked a few of those college towns in the States and just really spent a lot of time. I mean, how how who who knows which one of the college towns back then were. But just, you know, that that that could have been a way. and But who was going to turn down playing in massive arenas back then? You would have been insane to say no to that. Right. But the thing is that the thing that strikes me about that though is they weren't really playing arena rock, would however you would define that genre. They weren't writing big creamy sort of anthems that that people could wave their hands back and forth to like the the sticks and the Kansas and and even triumph to a certain extent were sort of arena rock, right? and And Max Webster wasn't that kind of a band. So I'm not sure that that would have been a good path for them either.
Speaker: Of course not. But again, neither was Rush. And they were headlining the arenas. They were, you know, punk had happened and Rush were entering their prog phase while punk is happening and we're getting almost no support from the industry. And and they're putting out great records like a farewell to Kingston Hemispheres. And they're headlining arenas doing this with basically no radio support in America, mostly just word of mouth and selling their records. And they're crushing it. And Max Webster are are are just an equally unique and kind of enigmatic thing and perhaps less accessible to, um I guess, American audiences at that time. And um and there's there's a million reasons you can just discuss why they were ultimately a bit less accessible. And maybe they would have done better in Europe or in England, which which was certainly the case. They were definitely doing better in England.
Speaker: Yeah, and it's it's hard to say because i mean I mean, Rush had this sort of meteoric rise at some point. they They did their time, right? They went and did their tours and I think they had two crew and the three band guys and they just did all the backup slots. But then they ended up, I think they sold out the LA Coliseum like three nights in a row or something at some point. So Rush kind of they found their path. I'm not sure that that Max Webster was able to do that sort of emulate that, which they should have been able to. They were certainly good enough to, um and they certainly toured enough to, but there was a difference. What do you think that was?
Speaker: um Oh, it's the business. i mean it's It's distribution, it's money. and see In the States, um you've got the American exceptionalism thing where where you just you you don't have an industry that wants to nurture as many foreign artists as would perhaps deserve to be nurtured. and just They had a rush. and the 70s and the 80s they had a Brian Adams you know they just there's room for however much there's room for and and so just different different and and that's that's that's just in the US of course is seen as the apex of well if you make it in America you play the LA 4 and then
Speaker: Mass and Square Garden, then you've made it as headliners. But there's so many levels, though. I mean, you you would describe Styx as a successful band. and and But I mean, how many arenas are they headlining now? So, you know, they' they're they're they're not playing arenas like David Gilmour is. Think of a band like Saga. I mean, they were never an American arena band, but I would still describe them as a very successful band. They did great in Europe, especially in Germany, and and and and arguably even bigger than in many parts of Canada.
Speaker: Well, I've I've had them on the I had Ian Greiten on the podcast action. We talked about that and and they really got them there. You go to your hotspots, which was Germany and Europe. And then but a friend of mine, we play it because, you know, Regina sometimes and and my buddy who plays guitar out there, he loves saga and he wanted them to bring them in. And he said there was only a few hundred people there. Yeah, it's unbelievable. He was shocked. It's the prairies. it's It's not Germany. It's a different world. and Different things connect with different people for different reasons. But a lot of the time, though, it's what connected with us when we were between 14 and 18 years old. yeah sure enough there's And people have written books describing the the physiological reasons for that, the the the chemical,
Speaker: reasons in our brain why music connects with us when our our brain is still growing and when we're going through puberty and and hormonally and and all that stuff. And even terrible music, never mind good music, will resonate with us emotionally because it was from that that time of our lives. So there's there's that part of it too. So the music that is is but is given a fair distribution when you're that age is going to be the music that's in your musical wallpaper in most people's lives. And now that the A and &R people, the the industry, the label forces aren't as big a deal as say the YouTube algorithm. algorithm yeah And that's just and a whole other thing that artists have to break into now. And yes, many would argue that that's a lesser of the two evils because there's certainly more room for things now and that people have access to far more of a palette of music. And that's always an interesting discussion.
Speaker: But the bands from back then, just this is what you were exposed to at this time in your life. And that's going to be the stuff that you're going to want to hear for for most of your life after that. I'd say that describes most people's musical tastes. Yeah, I think I would agree with that. But I guess in terms of the audience, you have to find your audience. And I think in the case of Rush, you know they went out there and really found their audience. They found enough people that were going to like what they were doing. and then putting out quality albums one after another, really focused on it. um Did Max Webster, did they get did they do anything that was um sort of ah that harmed them or caused them to not ah go further? like Were they party guys? did think yeah There's a thing in the book about the BTO when they backed up BTO and they got kicked out of BTO's dressing room for smoking or something. yeah Well, because Randy was a Mormon.
Speaker: and so Yeah, that's kind of partly why he left the Guess Who, because he just didn't want to engage in the erosion and as a musician who survived to almost 80, well, I guess he was right, but again, so was Keith Richards. But that's just where they were at. But to answer your question, No, I don't think they they overtly did anything that would have harmed them. um It was just that they were simply hard to classify. And in the States, that was the kind of the undoing of them in some ways. But in Canada, that's what in endeared them to their fans is that we we are the, as Robin Williams put it, the um the little attic on top of the meth lab. And a lot of it was coming from that perspective of that unique Canadian way of looking in.
Speaker: yeah And that's what songs like America's Veins and Old War are all about. and And there is an anecdote that's in the book about Max Webster being in some American radio studio and they're going through the whole High Class and Borrow Shoes album and the program director and whoever else is in the room and they love the album. but then they get to a war. And and it's not the vulgarity in the chorus, it's the um um wash your socks and guns and just remember, if you don't see a profit, just see your so sell your stocks and run. And at that point, he pulls the needle off the turntable and says, thank you very much. yeah Because at that point, you're biting the hand that feeds you. He says, you want to make it an the American music business and you're you're doing this kind of commentary. Just again, as an anecdote, i
Speaker: you know I wasn't there. But nevertheless, without a doubt, there's some truth to that. And um so so that's you know that's what endeared them to Canadians and and perhaps was their undoing in parts of America. But that's a tiny misdemeanor. The bottom line is, with the right distribution, they absolutely could and should have been at least as big as a band like Saga in Europe. They had a dedicated fan base in England, they were on top of the pops. And it was a matter of literally money not showing up and they would have had a headlining tour. They sold three times as many records than Rush had when they got their first British headlining tour. And Max absolutely should have been a huge band in England and Europe. It was purely a matter of money. yeah Okay, fair enough. No, I appreciate that. And and again, just ah to to button up that point, they they weren't known as a party band or a drug band or ah
Speaker: a drinking band as far as I knew anyway. so that Yeah, bands did that stuff. But no, not at all. Of course not. I mean, i mean part of towards the end, what was from i mean the band members who told me that what was alienating Kim a bit from the band was that he wasn't doing the the drugs and the drinking. And it was kind of he was doing his thing and the other guys were doing their thing. But there's just no insane stories of debauchery on the road and all that. Like Aerosmith days. Yeah, none of that stuff. i mean now Honestly, i' have I've not heard any any crazy insane stories about that kind of stuff happening. because I don't know. i mean there's There's the story of ah David Green who was the ah he was the engineer on on Universal Juveniles and and he told me his one distinct memory from those sessions was that what they're doing they're doing whatever song they're doing and somebody lets up a joint and Kim just puts down his guitar and says, okay, session's over. That's it.
Speaker: you know just He wanted everyone to be clean. There was none of that stuff going on. and just It was a serious band and he he wanted everyone to be in their best possible state. and That was his philosophy and that was what he wanted for the people around him. and it's just yeah You can't help but admire that. Yeah, no, that's good. I mean, I read the Allman Brothers book. It was kind of nauseating. And he said when they recorded Layla, there was every drug you could possibly want in the studio. And then and one of the guys in the band was quoted as saying heroin was the key that unlocked the vault to where all the good songs were. And I thought, well, that can't be true. That has to be false.
Speaker: It still makes for a good story. Let's face it. It's a great quote. It's such a quotable quote. But let's face it, when when did the Beatles truly become great? Coincidentally, may it be right when the acid drops? You know, the ah rubber soul, that's when the Beatles really find their identity. And that's when they kick the A &R guys out of the room. And it's just yeah nope we don't want to do stupid covers like Dismiss Lizzie anymore. We're writing great music. We found really good drugs and this is what we're doing now. And we're the most profitable band in the world. If you don't like it, well, there's the door. We're gonna open. yeah And just, that's a wonderful thing, isn't it? in that Look what happened after that. Look at those amazing records. And were the drugs helping? Were they
Speaker: I don't know, ask them. I mean, maybe they don't even remember because they don't want to talk about it. But without a doubt, that was part of what was going on. And it's hard to separate that from. Yeah, it is. I mean, I i don't focus on it because I focus on the art, the the artist and whatever's going on with the artist at the time is somewhat incidental to the product that they produce. And if you hear a good song or you see a good painting and you like it, then that's usually satisfactory. You go, okay, I really like this song. The backstory is interesting, but really ultimately doesn't matter that much.
Speaker: Well, I suppose. and But that's the difference, I guess, between being a consumer of something and and being truly interested in something. There's not everyone has to be interested in anything. There's no one saying that they're required to look up why van Gogh paints are the things you painted. We just have pieces of what van Gogh created connecting with pieces of us. And that's the function, the primary function of art. is that it makes you feel something whether it's pleasant or whether it challenges you or makes you feel unpleasant for some reason. Just that is that's its function. And if you want to further study things, of course, no one's faulting anyone for doing that. But that's not that doesn't have to be a primary function of it. That's just ah well, it's it's an academic thing. And it's fun to do. And I've kind of made a career doing it, which is great. But of course, I get that that's not going to be for everyone.
Speaker: yeah Well, like I get that as well. You know, studying English, you know, you taught you do some papers on authorial intent. What did the author intend? Or do the backstory on the history of the author and try to sort of juxtapose that against the actual story. But in the end, it's the it's the book that you read or the poem that you read that touches you in a special way that is is the meat of what's happening. the authorly ah authorial intent and the backstory is it's interesting for an academic exercise but so I look at music much the same way you know I like the song Layla I love it and and the fact that you know there's a backstory about drugs in the studio and stuff it's okay whatever you know but it's a great song.
Speaker: Of course, that's just part of it too. I mean, part of it was I think it's Dwayne Allman's girlfriend that basically wrote the whole back half of that song and wasn't credited for. it There's those kinds of stories too. And yeah, it's interesting. I mean, does it matter to most people who consume that thing? Yeah, probably not. But there's just so many examples though of art where it's just, well, this is interesting. It's ah it's ah For instance, a guy like Elvis, to understand the things that were going on in his life, help you understand why certain things were happening. There's a fantastic episode of Malcolm Gladwell's podcast about where he listens to every live version he could find of Are You Lonesome Tonight? And he always breaks down in the spoken part in the middle where it vamps. And his defense mechanism is to laugh. But it's actually the most painful
Speaker: parts of him are what are actually coming out in that part of the song. And they do this deep analysis and he hangs out with um Jack White, who is probably the most certainly one of the top Elvis collectors in the world, Elvis enthusiasts and experts. And it's such a fascinating conversation. And I'm sure at that point, that's a those kind of things are a good gateway for people who aren't music academics still just to listen in to a thing for 45 minutes and at least appreciate that just yeah if you love Elvis maybe there is there is some value into analyzing this because you'll you'll then gain a deeper appreciation for parts of Elvis that you may not have and actually enhances your love for music and at that point
Speaker: Is it strictly academic? I don't think so because now there's parts of you that are actually more connected to Elvis because there's things that happen in your life that might be similar to that. Maybe you had a marriage that fell apart and and now suddenly you understand that part of Elvis so you'll never listen to that song the same way again. So it kind of goes both ways. Yeah, fair point. and And it's evocative. So to know where that comes from or where those emotions are coming from might enhance the emotional experience. So better understanding anyway. Yeah. So as ever, as Radiohead said, everything in its right place. And and it's I think it's great that we just, we we have this world that a lot of it we can get from from YouTubers and from podcasts, which is kind of like 1940s radio, this long form spoken word without commercials.
Speaker: and And you can just talk about ideas and things that matter. And there's no shortage of people who are actually talking about this stuff now, which I think is so great because, you know, of course people wrote books on music and talked about this stuff, but it's just so much more easily accessible now. And I think it's great that these conversations happen, that we're looking back at music from 40, 50, 60 years ago. No one was really doing that. When I was a kid, I mean, the oldies station was, I mean, let's let's picture this. I remember being six years old, so 1989,
Speaker: you're listening to The Oldie Station and they're playing Suspicious Minds by Elvis at that point. That's a 20 -year -old song, just my God. So now we're listening to ah Smells Like Teen Spirit, which is over 30 years old. So I mean, that would be considered oldies, but no one calls that oldies now because but it's almost a denigrating term to um almost a dismissive term that is no longer relevant and it's an oldie Oldie but goodie is just, yeah, no, this is art. This matters to people. Our joke used to be if they didn't like it, it was dated. If they liked it, it was retro.
Speaker: fuck
Speaker: It just depends how you describe it, right? Oh, man. That is so funny and so true. And it reminds me of that wonderful ah sketch from from George Carlin. what is it Everybody else's stuff is shit and your shit is stuff. Yeah. And then he does the big thing on stuff and getting a bigger place to get more stuff. And then you get more stuff. That's a good idea. yeah No, and it's just like, it's just as that juxtaposition. We could just spend hours even talking about that, the way we view ourselves and the things that we value versus somebody else in that sense, just, yeah, you said that for music in a joking way. Just yeah, if it's the stuff that I like, it's, it's retro, but that's how we kind of view all the parts of ourselves and things that we did well.
Speaker: we tend to think well that's because of something i did well and if somebody else did well as well no well that's just environmental well no we just tend to overestimate the things that are important to us and that we're proud of and and if it's somebody else we we we've kind of we we don't want to see that and that that's that's very very human nature that that we almost want to aggrandize ourselves and it and it's so such a faux pas to admit this but it's human nature and of course once you realize it then you kind of catch yourself and it's just you know no they they work very hard or no that that value is important to them and we shouldn't demean that and let's just kind of keep a more even playing field but that's cognitive biases. Is this a podcast about music?
Speaker: Well, you know, it's a deeper conversation. So we get to we get to go in a lot of different directions, which I always appreciate. And but the cool thing that you do in the book that I really like is you do a chronology. And so you your your chapter titles are the year, you know, and you sort of track what's going on with the band and the the pivotal years like 77 and stuff. And one of the things that jumped out at me is is how many associations Max Webster had with different artists like like Dominic Triano, for example, I'm assuming that him and Kim were friends or they knew each other, that they chose together. um Ian Thomas seems like an odd pairing to for Max Webster to to Ian Thomas open for Max Webster. Is that correct?
Speaker: um There's often odd pairings. My God, I saw, ah I think it was Damien Marley opening for Van Halen. Just sometimes these things can work. It actually was great. But yeah, the Ian Thomas thing. Well, I spoke to Gary McCracken after the fact. and And so I interviewed him in case I do a second edition of the book. I'll i'll have more of his voice in there. And I'm glad that interview happened. But one of the things he mentioned was that his favorite tour with Max Webster was the Canadian tour where they headlined and
Speaker: Ian Thomas was the opening band. And I said, why? He said, because he was so great in the van and backstage, because just he had a great sense of humor. And that's just the single most important thing on the road. What genre of music, how complimentary it is. Tons of people who saw that tour say that that that that Ian Thomas was great. And he had Hugh Symon Keys, and he was kind of in the whole Anthem family as well. But right but away from a band member, just yeah without a blink, he said, oh yeah, the Ian Thomas tour. Well, I'm a huge, huge fan of Ian Thomas. I just, ah you know, it's funny how the bands all sort of intermingle and how many tours I think, what did you say that to Max Webster did seven major tours backing Rush, which is is more of a the pairing that you would think would make sense. But then I guess, you know, did Max Webster ever feel like, you know, we want to do our own tour? Like he can only do so many backup tours. Did that kind of run its course?
Speaker: Yeah, that was definitely part of it. i mean the in In the breakup chapter, um yeah I titled some of the chapters after song lyrics too, so it's all over. and yeah Kim absolutely cites part of the reason being that he didn't want to be an opening band anymore. and they They've been slogging it out for almost a decade. it it it just nothing lasts forever. And and if you you want to have some kind of forward momentum, and but it's but it's not just that one variable, there's obviously other things going on. And, you know, the lack of managerial support and on both sides of the border and just it was a whole number of things. and and And, and just Kim had to pull the plug on it. And know it's unfortunate, but
Speaker: Things got to end sometimes, but but for sure. Of course, that was part of the strain was yeah all this work has been done and and we're just not really moving forward anymore. We're a big band in Canada and just the disappointment of them not and the ending up getting the money behind them to become a big band in Europe, and a in well yeah the UK. That was for sure. That's when guys in the band started dropping. I mean, Watkinson leaves within months and then Dave Miles doesn't last much longer. And just, you know, they they know what time it is. And it's such a shame. Yeah. Well, that's why it struck me. I thought, okay. So when you write that they had, they did seven major tours of Rush, you know, that initially you'd think, well, that's a really good thing. But then I thought, okay, the first three, four, five, once you're on your seventh major tour opening for a band,
Speaker: especially when you're as focused and directed as they wanted to be and their aspirations were were still there to be more than that. At some point, you'd be thinking, gee, you know, like who we're not where we need to be. Correct. And for sure that turns in 1979 without question. You listen to those recordings of them backing Rush and they're still very enthusiastic because now they've gone to someplace new. Now they're in Europe and now they're in England. and then they headline two nights at the Marquis Club, which is a really big deal to play that room. So that's big time for momentum. and You look at the photos of them in the month after they come back from that trip, and they're without question the happiest photos of that band in that book.
Speaker: And then something turns and then boom. And then the next time they back rush in the US tour, it's just that enthusiasm. Just perhaps it's hindsight because you know what's going on. But it's just something's different now. They're also not playing Watkins and songs. And that's that's coming to a head now too. where where Terry is just definitely, he doesn't want to be doing the whole bowl. We're just now we're just a band that's backing Rush. And and domestically, well, we can play Maple Leaf Gardens, which is great. And those are some of the best shows they ever played. But there's still beyond that in Toronto, there's no more for momentum. It can play smaller arenas around Canada too. And, you know, four or 5000 seeders and still that's cool. They can do that. But basically, Watkinson's all yeah, I'm checking out.
Speaker: but Realistically, i mean so there was they did some US s dates with Ariel Speedwagon, I guess, and Rainbow and stuff, but is it realistic to think that Max Webster was going to be the kind of arena rock band that could have played those same venues as the headliner? No, zero. they in ah in ah In a perfect and more just world, they would have been like Saga and they would have they would have had a big following in Canada and a big following in in England and Europe. and they would just continue to put up records and and they would have played the the two and three thousand four thousand seeders and your theaters small arenas and absolutely that would have sustained them just with the right backing behind them. I have no doubt that that version of things that timeline that that would have worked. Yeah fair fair enough.
Speaker: and Then you mentioned Dave Stone earlier and and and I actually know Dave and he lives on the west coast here. so When he came out to Vancouver in 1982, he had left ah Max Webster. He wasn't in the band very long and he came out to Vancouver and he actually recorded with me. He played on one of my 45s that I put out. and we We got Dave to come down and play on it. so um I was really happy. We were thrilled because he'd been in Rainbow and he was just finished Universal Juveniles. and And you know he told us a bunch of stories and and of course I had him on the podcast as well and he's still playing out here, he's still around and he plays with some friends of mine. um so ah But I wanted to ask you about that because you know he said when he got in the band, he wasn't in the band very long and he's a brilliant musician, very highly trained as you know, like just unbelievable. and
Speaker: He was right in there and knew that stuff and loved it. But he wasn't in the band very long. And he said that Kim was, by the time Dave, now Dave had his own issues. Okay, so let's put that on the table. Dave's very open about his drug and alcohol problems and how he got them under control now. But he said Kim was you know didn't have any money and the financial stuff and all the stresses of the business was really getting to him. So that was his experience. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that was when he joined the band because he had the ah the opportunity to get into Black Sabbath because Ronnie James Dio out of Rainbow, just he was going to bring him into that. And yeah he explains and and in and he's explained many times what that was like. He was all, yeah, my mother was kind of traditional, I guess, kind of Christian, you're going to join a band called Black Sabbath. yeah And it's that kind of stuff. right
Speaker: So it's kind of funny in hindsight, obviously. but ah But he was all, no, I can just come home and play in Max Webster. This job just opened up and it's a huge band. Their records are gone all gold and now platinum. and But then he's in the band for not very long. And then Kim just takes him up for a drink. And it's all, yeah, well, this is what's going on in the business. And he's all, oh, God, I just made a huge career mistake. I could have just been in Black Sabbath. yeah and Yeah. But still, he says he loved playing in that band. He said that's his favorite band he ever played in. He's extremely open about that. and know he was He just did maybe a few dozen dates and did the album and that was that. But after the album's finished, you know Terry had left already. He just did the battle scar session because the Rush guys were were there and it was a full band thing. I mean he of course did the pre -production of the band or the the the earthy album, the demoing of the songs but by the time they're in the studio to make that album he's out and so it's just basically Kim, Gary and Dave and then Dave leaves after the session so basically you've got two members of the band and that's it and as far as the band's concerned it's just is this actually going to continue or not and so at that point Dave Stone I guess he's playing with BB Gibber these guys other things going on so maybe
Speaker: they went on the road and he just couldn't do the Max Webster thing anymore. So Kim had to find another guy and just put together a different version of the band. And and then Cherry comes back in on the salary and that's the last version of Max Webster. Right. Because Dave moved to the West Coast here. I don't know what his connection with Vancouver was. i i I must have asked him at one point, but he moved out here and just ended up playing in bar bands and cover bands and stuff and doing some so studio sessions. Well, he yeah he ended up doing all kinds. He ended up, I think, in Mexico. He did all kinds of gigs. I mean, he's such a great adaptable keyboard player. He did he worked tons. Yeah, but not in not in the recording act again. not like When I talked to him, him and Ronnie James Deal were really good friends. and that really
Speaker: Rattled him he wanted to play with Ronnie and he he said he was the his best friend in rainbow when he played in rain And then Dave had his own demons that he had to wrestle with too and BB Gabor obviously that you know the story there so Yeah, but it power yeah I know I know very sad but a decade later but let's face it the ah but deal was that a black Sabbath after two records and and And at that time, just i' kind of trying to extrapolate here, I mean, listen to Holy Diver. There's not much room for a keyboardist in the direction that that band took. And so, you know, he he missed his window and he he sadly had to deal with that. And fortunately he did. He came out the other side and he's he's just he's happy to be alive. He's happy for his experiences. He's got it and in in full you know perspective. His symphonic slam record went gold in Japan.
Speaker: And he played on a record for Max Webster that went gold. He played in a huge rainbow record. I mean, Long Live Rock and Roll. That's a massive record. How many guys get to do that? yeah So, you know, he's got it in perspective. So, hey, good on him. He won. Yeah, and nowadays he said that because of the internet he can do a lot of people really like his playing and still get a hold of him and he does remote stuff too quite a bit. Cool. That's good for him as well. Yeah, that's great. So a couple other quick questions here as we wrap. Do you think Max Webster was too progressive? Do you think they should have been chasing hits a little bit more? No.
Speaker: No, of course not. I mean, no one's going to accuse Genesis of being too progressive. And I mean, of course, they got more popular later, but they they did plenty fine. Yes, did. Yes, filled up stadiums after they put up the Relayer album, the most inaccessible album they ever did. it was it was you know it's jazz fusion and Igor Stravinsky influenced. It's just that the more you go down that road the narrow the demographic becomes like I saw Yes in I think 77 -78 and and it didn't grab me I was waiting for you know seeing all good people and roundabout and the songs that I knew and stuff but and Steve Howe's a great player but holy moly were they like you maybe I'm not a drug guy but maybe if I was
Speaker: was under the influence. I would have enjoyed it more, but i just it was too much for me. like I'm more of a mainstream guy. Yeah, fair enough. i mean Everything is the right place. It always comes back to that phrase. and Not everything is designed for everyone, and that's okay. I mean i love yes i love that period of yes. But again, it's that stuff is definitely not for everybody. but i guess so Let me just go back to your question. um ah What was your question again? Being progressive, I mean, it's cool, but again, you're like from you have to give the record companies some due and they're saying we need a wider demographic here. the more The more quirky, the more progressive you are, the narrower the demographic becomes.
Speaker: he's Fair enough. But given the right distribution, I mean Paradise Skies, that is that that wasn't going to be a number one hit. That's not Hey Jude, but it was still accessible. It was on the radio. They were on top of the pops. And that sold 200 ,000 copies in England. yeah and And their next record was Universal Juveniles, which was heavy. And that sold reasonably well in England, but there was no tour to back it up. And so it just kind of fizzled out. So I don't know. I mean, was yeah Judas Priest was a huge band. I wouldn't describe them as being radio friendly.
Speaker: Yeah, fair enough. But the thing is when Kim, Kim, you know, obviously you you quote in the book here what Kim said, I got kind of sick of being Russia's little opening band and and he was wanted to move on. But then Kim Mitchell gets into the 80s and what does he do? He goes mainstream. He's got Logger and Ale. He's got, you know, Rock and Roll Duty. He's got Go for a Soda. These are more accessible. The demographics way wider. You have to admit that. Of course, of course. Absolutely. And that that's the direction he went in the 80s and and they're still great songs. I don't know if Kim sat down thinking, hey, let's write a song that's more accessible. He says he wrote Rock and Roll Duty in 15 minutes. And Burton Cummings wrote a lot of his great songs in 15 minutes. And when you only were doing this for 15 minutes, I doubt you're even thinking about making this commercial or not. So whether or not an artist is consciously cultivating trying to be commercial,
Speaker: um Let me think of alone by heart oh yeah that song was written to be a hit obviously so stuff like that they didn't write that of course they had they were bringing outside writers by the mid -80s at that point cuz that was that was the time and the business was just kind of becoming a little more centralized i mean it had already by the late seventies. the old Yeah, true. That's just the business. you know Kim Mitchell, like his solos and stuff too. i mean Obviously, he's he's got the Arabic influence and he's got the jazz influence and stuff, but his solos are more straight ahead rock. He's not doing sweep picking solos and going and Steve Vai on every song. you know He's playing songs that you know like the old solos, the old saying, you know you play a guitar solo that people can hum, you know be more like David Gilmour and less like Steve Vai, and you'll go further demographically.
Speaker: Absolutely. 100%. And yeah without question, in the 80s, that's where Kim won. But then you listen to Shake and Look at Human Being. You got songs like City Girl, which, and I know guys who played in bands in the 80s, and they learned that song. They loved the complexity of that song. But that was never going to be a radio hit. Because at that point, the business was changing and we're moving away from albums back to singles again, which is what it was in the in the late 50s into the early 60s. The LP kind of had its 15 years of being the dominant version of music. And then MTV happens, music video happens, the business changes. And the LP is never the dominant version of what people consume. I mean, but but by the early 70s, I mean, it's something like 70 or 80 % of
Speaker: all American music sales. And so that was the period where a band like Max Webster begins and bands make albums. and But by the time you get to the later 70s, FM radio tightens up and because the advertisers show up and and buy everything out and now you have to have music that that that will make the advertisers happy. And so the the long -form hippie guy who's high on the air Not playing commercials after radio starts to fade away and then singles become FM radio and artists have to adjust to this and so how conscious is it from artists to artists from song to song from day to day i don't know.
Speaker: I mean, it's hard to ask them even now because that was then. You'd have to ask them then and who was going to admit that back then. They they they just wanted to mut their music to be relevant to them the the the climate at that time. And so, yeah, Kim writes Rock and Roll Duty. And you'd have to ask Kim Mitchell in 1989, what were you trying to do, man? But nobody asked him then. Well, Patio Lantern's Logger and Ale of is a drinking song. And they're great songs. I played all of them. I was in a cover band in the 80s, and we played all those songs. They were they were great. Go for a soda. And they're loved great songs. I mean, as much as people want to snub their noses at hiss, just i mean just objectively, you cannot listen to patio lanterns and just think, that is not a great hook. be Great song. Yeah, just it's it's been it's the imagery. that
Speaker: There's no different from anything else Pi Du Bois ever did. He just did it in a way that was ah accessible to that 14 -year -old part of literally everyone in this world who isn't asexual. You know what I mean? there's It's a completely universal song. You just you cannot objectively say that as a bad song. It is a great song. And just I'll always defend any artist when they're writing accessible music that they want to write. It just happens to be accessible. Yeah, well, because it's it's just great. It's objectively great. Just from my perspective, because I went to high school in the 70s and then got into the 80s and stuff and I noticed a real shift. And one thing I always in the back of my mind thought was Kim Mitchell went more commercial when he became a solo artist and dispensed with the intricate songs and the fast key changes and the fast ah tempo changes and stuff and just became more mainstream and accessible to a wider audience and made some money.
Speaker: Because Max Webster, as far as, you know, they were great and everything, but but financially, business -wise, not so much. So that was what I always thought, true or not. Yes, it's basically, um as someone who was not present, but of kind of kind of looking from the outside view in, I'd say that's pretty accurate overall, but but Kim still wrote great key changes. Rockland Wonderland. Awesome album. Yeah, but but just but just the the the title track that key change in the middle. i mean that's that's just That's textbook Kim. On the next record, he didn't hear his goal. What a beautiful key change in the middle of that song that just on paper would not work. he just if you just If you'd never heard that song and you just look at those chords,
Speaker: Without any context at all, 9 out of 10 people who just understand chord progressions would say, oh how the how's that going to work? but he But his melodies combined with those changes, you know, that's it's not his work, he has rascal hoodie, but Pierce Gold, that's a gorgeous song. No, I'm with you. i'm I'm with you on that. But like, so the Live at Berry show where where Dave Stone was playing with the stuff, that's an awesome. I watched that whole thing. But I mean, you talk about lots of key changes, lots of fast arpeggios, lots of tempo changes, and just, yeah you got to really pay attention to what's going on there. He broke out of that. He he he went more sort of rock and roll duty kind of vibes. Absolutely. yes Without question. And it's it's it's what he needed to do. he He absolutely wanted recognition for how he was great.
Speaker: And, but the thing is, but the difference is, I think that the the question is, do we see an artist as compromising any their vision or their integrity and I would never once describe Kim Mitchell as my artist that compromised anything, because he, he still was on those records man shaking like a human being. It's not a a weird record like Community On My Sleeve, but you just can't listen to that record and just describe it as bad. i mean and Every one of those songs, is is just it sounds like a great commercial record in 1986 by a mute by and a group of musicians, Kim's the boss, but but just the writing and the arrangement, the instrumentation, the the textures, the aesthetic, that is a great album.
Speaker: And I'll fight to the death, anyone who disappears. I'm a Ken Mitchell fan, top to bottom. It's right from the first time I heard him until today. So yeah, i'm I'm right there with you. ah just yeah and you know i'm I'm more of a mainstream guy, so I gravitate more towards that stuff, but I still appreciate that. You can't listen to like high -class board shoes in -board shoes and not love it as far as I'm concerned if you're a rock musician or any kind of a musical aficionado at all. but But let me just add but one more point to that. yeah and But my favorite Kim Mitchell album is Itch because to me, that's the one time he does both of those things as a solo artist. It's extremely quirky and it's it's branching out, and but it's still very melodic.
Speaker: and he still is writing great hooks, but it is so quirky and it is so interesting, the production of that record as well. There's so many left turns um both musically and aesthetically that it takes. I mean, it is such an excellent album that just didn't receive the distribution that it deserved. To me, that is when he comes back full circle and he finds that part of himself again and just executes the entire package. I mean, if people haven't heard that record, just, man, it's such a fantastic album. Cool. Well, thanks for adding that. So one quick question, one last question. What did you learn in this experience writing this book that you didn't expect to learn? Nothing. You knew what was going on? No, no, no, no, no. no I it learned so much. If I learned anything from this book, is that the narrative
Speaker: of the idea of I am a self -made man is the biggest piece of nonsense that we've ever told ourselves. This book took a village to create and ah look at the acknowledgments pages. There's multiple pages of acknowledgments because there's so many people that love that band and documented that band that that had to open up their collections and their homes to me and and told their stories to me and and and helped me find so, so many things and connect me to other people and and connect me to you know the right things that just that have to be in place. I mean to print books in England and get them sent here and and have a customs broker to get them into the country safely and get them into a warehouse and then and then have
Speaker: a website for people to buy them on and and have a square reader for people to to purchase your book on. That is a huge number of variables you know that that that you need to have ah just an army of people who are conspiring in your favor to a large degree to make this kind of thing happen for you. Man, there's there's I think his name is Matt. Ridley, Matt Ridley, I think Matt Ridley is his name. He does this quick piece called just about the computer mouse. And he says there's no one in this world that knows how to make a computer mouse. Because the person that that puts the mouse together is not the person that made the parts. And the person that made that part is not the person that learned to make plastic. And the person in that plastic refinery is not the person that was working
Speaker: we in in the oil field to make that part of the process yeah and the person who made the coffee and ground the beans for that guy to stay awake while he was working that grueling 14 -hour shift and then on the other side all the people who have whove who have gone all the way from Hedy Lamarr basically as as a movie star, but she also basically came up with all the the technology, part of the technology at least to towards getting Wi -Fi and the way we're all connected now. So all the people who make computers and all the people who market computers, just all these people, no one knows how to make a computer mouse. And when you see life this way and and you make you make a book like this, what I learned from this book, yeah, is that it takes a massive village to do it.
Speaker: Yeah, no, fair enough. My name's on the cover. There's 200 other people um directly and then thousands of other people indirectly that and help make a thing like that possible. And if you just think that you made that thing, then you're just you're completely out to lunch. I appreciate you did lots of work and and it's an excellent book. i We recommend our listeners to pick it up and have a look at lots of great pictures too. I don't know, you said it's part scrapbook and that's very true. You got lots of live pictures, lots of great fun stuff. Because a lot of times back in the day, some of the bands didn't get a lot of pictures. I've heard that from a few people. I wish we'd had recorded it more. We didn't have a video camera. We didn't have a camera with us a lot of times. So a lot of the experiences get lost visually. Absolutely. But fortunately,
Speaker: and Tons of people shot Max Webster. There's lots of great shots of them in the studio as well, but of course the majority of the shots are live shots and just dozens and dozens of photographers and a few professionals of course that I license photos from. But I think what what people love about the book is that, again, not nearly so much about me, but the fact that there are so many amateur photos that you get the sense that it was the fan's band. And because the fans went to their parties at their house when when they put out their album and New Year's Eve stuff and stuff. And just they were they they had this this closeness with their audience and the fact that half of the photos in the book are taken by fans of the band who truly love that band and captured them sometimes in a way that professional photographers couldn't or didn't want to.
Speaker: just that, that to me is just the most masked Webster thing ever. And that's kind of what makes that Ben endures that this book wouldn't have existed if hundreds of people didn't say to me, yeah, of course, I'll buy that and when you finish it. Many thanks to Bob Wegner for being part of the Liner Notes podcast and sharing some insights from his incredible experiences in the music biz. More information is available at maxwebsterlive dot .ca, highclassmax .com, and of course bobwegner .ca. a ah Lots of information on there as well. We hope you enjoyed the podcast and invite you to subscribe to it and share it on social media so others can enjoy it as well.
Speaker: We also invite you to listen to Dusty Discs Radio Tuesdays and Thursdays to hear music from the Canadian artists you're hearing on this show. So until next time, I'm Dan Pan.
